/irc-logs / w3c / #webapps / 2010-10-20 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Oct 20 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #webapps
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  69. # [19:03] <shepazu> Zakim, room for 8?
  70. # [19:03] <Zakim> ok, shepazu; conference Team_(webapps)17:00Z scheduled with code 26632 (CONF2) for 60 minutes until 1800Z
  71. # [19:03] <shepazu> Zakim, this will be DOM3
  72. # [19:03] <Zakim> ok, shepazu; I see IA_WebApps(DOM3)2:00PM scheduled to start in 60 minutes
  73. # [19:04] <shepazu> Zakim, call shepazu
  74. # [19:04] <Zakim> ok, shepazu; the call is being made
  75. # [19:04] * Joins: jcraig (jcraig@17.226.23.163)
  76. # [19:04] * Joins: Travis (836b0069@128.30.52.43)
  77. # [19:05] <shepazu> Zakim, call shepazu
  78. # [19:05] <Zakim> ok, shepazu; the call is being made
  79. # [19:05] * jcraig what's the conf code?
  80. # [19:05] <shepazu> Zakim, code?
  81. # [19:05] <Zakim> the conference code is 3663 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), shepazu
  82. # [19:05] * jcraig thx
  83. # [19:06] <Travis> Restricted?
  84. # [19:06] <shepazu> try 26632
  85. # [19:06] <smaug_> that works
  86. # [19:06] * Quits: aroben (aroben@17.203.12.32) (Ping timeout)
  87. # [19:07] <jcraig> Zakim, who is on the phone?
  88. # [19:07] <Zakim> IA_WebApps(DOM3)2:00PM has not yet started, jcraig
  89. # [19:07] <Zakim> On IRC I see Travis, jcraig, Zakim, MikeSmith, Hixie, karl, Martijnc, Marcos, davidb, timeless_mbp, tlr, fjh, ArtB, Dashiva, smaug_, arve, Lawouach, krijnh, sideshow, gavin,
  90. # [19:07] <Zakim> ... shepazu, ilkka, gsnedders, hober, dom, trackbot, jgraham
  91. # [19:08] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@111.188.27.19) (Quit: Deyr fé deyja, frændr deyr, sjálfr et sama)
  92. # [19:10] * timeless_mbp looks up
  93. # [19:11] <smaug_> davidb: ping
  94. # [19:12] <jcraig> davidb, can you call in?
  95. # [19:12] <Travis> Scribe?
  96. # [19:12] <davidb> jcraig: no i have a conflict sorry
  97. # [19:12] <jcraig> Zakim, who is noisy?
  98. # [19:12] <Zakim> sorry, jcraig, I don't know what conference this is
  99. # [19:13] * timeless_mbp chuckles
  100. # [19:13] <smaug_> jcraig: is there still noise?
  101. # [19:13] * jcraig sounds okay now
  102. # [19:13] <Travis> Scribe: TraviL
  103. # [19:13] <smaug_> ok, it was me
  104. # [19:13] <Travis> ScribeNick: TraviL
  105. # [19:14] <Travis> ScribeNick: Travis
  106. # [19:14] <shepazu> Agenda: UIScrollRequestEvent, UIValueChangeRequestEvent, DOMAttributeChangeRequestEvent
  107. # [19:14] * timeless_mbp frowns
  108. # [19:14] * timeless_mbp Zakim: who is on
  109. # [19:14] <Travis> Scribe: Travis
  110. # [19:14] * timeless_mbp is
  111. # [19:14] * timeless_mbp can drop off if that's a problem
  112. # [19:14] * timeless_mbp could probably also scribe
  113. # [19:14] <Travis> ?
  114. # [19:15] <shepazu> http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/products/2
  115. # [19:16] <Travis> shepazu: Will update the issues in Tracker...
  116. # [19:17] <Travis> ... RAISED -- logged the issue in the system
  117. # [19:17] <Travis> ... OPEN -- issue has been looked at during conference
  118. # [19:18] <Travis> ... PENDINGREVIEW -- we made a change, and are waiting for opener's response OR they have responded and are not satisifed with our response.
  119. # [19:18] <Travis> ... CLOSED -- We responded and the opener was satisfied.
  120. # [19:18] <Travis> .... POSTPONED -- we will not resolve the issue as part of DOM L3 Events.
  121. # [19:19] <Travis> Agenda Item 1
  122. # [19:19] <smaug_> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2010JulSep/att-0106/UserInterfaceIndependence.html
  123. # [19:19] <Travis> <shepazu> Agenda: UIScrollRequestEvent, UIValueChangeRequestEvent, DOMAttributeChangeRequestEvent
  124. # [19:20] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@114.48.56.234)
  125. # [19:20] <Travis> zzzz
  126. # [19:20] <Travis> :-)
  127. # [19:20] <Travis> Topic: Wheel and UIScrollRequest
  128. # [19:22] <Travis> shepazu: jcraig can you provide background on UIScrollRequest?
  129. # [19:22] <Travis> jcraig: Sure
  130. # [19:23] <Travis> ... Didn't think wheel event was appropriate because UIScrollRequest is a semantic event versus wheel as a hardware-generated event.
  131. # [19:24] <Travis> ... Needed the event to respond to a variety of input scenarios (like touch/gesture, keypress,etc.)
  132. # [19:24] * Quits: karl (karlcow@128.30.54.58) (Ping timeout)
  133. # [19:25] <Travis> ... ex: user presses the Spacebar key.
  134. # [19:26] <Travis> ... if user-script cancels the wheel event it won't stop the key events from firing.
  135. # [19:26] <Travis> smaug_: If the users responds to the key event by causing a scroll, then the wheel event would also be dispatched.
  136. # [19:27] * timeless_mbp ? s/users/useragent/
  137. # [19:27] <Travis> shepazu: We haven't been dealing with semantic-level events in this spec.
  138. # [19:28] <timeless_mbp> s/users responds/useragent responds/
  139. # [19:28] <Travis> jcraig: Another example from the spec: Whether the user can press Command-Z to trigger an undo request.
  140. # [19:29] <Travis> ... I know that key events are fired as the physical keys are pressed.
  141. # [19:29] <Travis> ... At the time the Z is down, then the expectation is that the semantic event would be fired.
  142. # [19:30] <Travis> ... If not cancelled, then the regular low-level key events would be fired.
  143. # [19:30] <timeless_mbp> q+
  144. # [19:30] * Zakim sees timeless_mbp on the speaker queue
  145. # [19:30] <Travis> shepazu: Why do the events need to be canceled?
  146. # [19:30] <Travis> ... If there's an undo event that has been processed, what harm do the subsequent key events have?
  147. # [19:31] <Travis> jcraig: the web app needs a way to say, 'yes' I know about this event.
  148. # [19:32] <timeless_mbp> if the web application handles he ui event to undo some drag operation. and it also registers cmd-z (for e.g. agents that don't send ui events) and has an undo stack, then the application could undo a second transaction. similarly.
  149. # [19:33] <timeless_mbp> if the web application handles a ui event for undo, but doesn't handle cmd-z, then the cmd-z will bubble to the useragent + screen reader. this could result in the useragent undoing e.g. typing/paste
  150. # [19:33] <timeless_mbp> by using preventdefault, you avoid the risk of confusion from that
  151. # [19:34] <Travis> shepazu: Trying to understand...
  152. # [19:34] <Travis> ... If we'd started from semantic events, it would be much better for web apps.
  153. # [19:34] * Joins: jrossi (836b0066@128.30.52.43)
  154. # [19:34] <Travis> ... DOM L3 Events spec has moved away from that direction.
  155. # [19:34] <jcraig> q+ to say that these are not "touch" interface events
  156. # [19:34] * Zakim sees timeless_mbp, jcraig on the speaker queue
  157. # [19:35] <Travis> ... It's clear that we need a place to spec the behavior of these higher-level events.
  158. # [19:36] <timeless_mbp> handledEvent()
  159. # [19:36] <Travis> ... preventDefault may be the wrong way of looking at it... Might be something more like "suppressEvent"
  160. # [19:36] <Travis> (Doug isn't looking at this log)
  161. # [19:36] <Travis> :)
  162. # [19:37] <Travis> [muted]
  163. # [19:38] <Travis> timeless_mbp: If the app is handling both key events and undo events (semantic) then you inadvertantly handle the undo twice.
  164. # [19:39] * timeless_mbp mutes
  165. # [19:39] <jcraig> q?
  166. # [19:39] * Zakim sees timeless_mbp, jcraig on the speaker queue
  167. # [19:39] <timeless_mbp> q-
  168. # [19:39] * Zakim sees jcraig on the speaker queue
  169. # [19:39] <Travis> shepazu: Web sites will have to write content for both models for awhile.
  170. # [19:39] <jcraig> ack t
  171. # [19:39] * Zakim sees jcraig on the speaker queue
  172. # [19:40] <jcraig> ack j
  173. # [19:40] <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to say that these are not "touch" interface events
  174. # [19:40] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  175. # [19:40] * timeless_mbp is going to go mobile which will complicate things
  176. # [19:40] <Travis> shepazu: Libraries like jQuery will need to handle these sceanrios, and we'll need to provide the right APIs for them. We can't assume that authors will be able to switch over to semantic events immediately.
  177. # [19:41] <Travis> jcraig: Mentioned previously that semantic events are within the scope of the touch interfaces group.
  178. # [19:41] <Travis> ... I'm not sure about that.
  179. # [19:43] <Travis> shepazu: Looking for a better name for touch events working group.
  180. # [19:45] * Joins: timeless_xchat (timeless@80.186.238.173)
  181. # [19:45] <Travis> ... If we need to do these "intensional events" elsewhere, we might be able to find a home.
  182. # [19:47] <Travis> q
  183. # [19:47] <Travis> q?
  184. # [19:47] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  185. # [19:47] * Quits: timeless_mbp (timeless@88.115.8.36) (Quit: Leaving.)
  186. # [19:50] <Travis> resolution: DOM L3 will not add UIScrollRequest, and will be considered in another specification. Also will not change WheelEvent.
  187. # [19:50] * Joins: karl (karlcow@128.30.54.58)
  188. # [19:51] <Travis> jcraig: I think ValueChangeRequest would be in the same spec as UIScrollRequest.
  189. # [19:51] <Travis> ... We should talk about DOMAttributeChangeRequestEvent
  190. # [19:51] <Travis> (what a mouthful)
  191. # [19:52] <Travis> smaug_: Will we need this if we develop something to replace mutation events?
  192. # [19:52] <Travis> jcraig: This isn't a direct replacement for mutation events.
  193. # [19:53] * Quits: Marcos (Marcos@213.236.208.22) (Quit: Marcos)
  194. # [19:53] <Travis> ... This [DACREvent] is a request for the web app to make a change to the attribute.
  195. # [19:53] <Travis> ... Whereas DOMAttrModified is a notification that the change has or is about to happen.
  196. # [19:54] <Travis> shepazu: Yes, I see that this is very different from mutation events.
  197. # [19:54] <Travis> jcraig: With this event [DACREvent] we (ARIA) wouldn't have a need for DOM Mutation events.
  198. # [19:55] <Travis> smaug_: If we had a better mutation event, could ARIA use those?
  199. # [19:58] * timeless_xchat is now known as timeless
  200. # [20:01] <Travis> Travis wonders what attributes would the AT want to change and why? (Example please?)
  201. # [20:02] * Parts: fjh (fhirsch3@66.30.252.41)
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  204. # [20:06] <timeless> q+ to talk about how one can navigate a tree without changing the selection
  205. # [20:06] * Zakim sees timeless on the speaker queue
  206. # [20:09] <Travis> (discussion around scenarios involving screen readers and actions in the web app)
  207. # [20:09] <timeless> q-
  208. # [20:09] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  209. # [20:13] <Travis> shepazu: Is DOMAttributeChangeRequestEvent considered on the same level of the other semantic events?
  210. # [20:14] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@114.48.56.234) (Ping timeout)
  211. # [20:14] <Travis> jcraig: Yes, though DACREvent was considered a catch-all rather than having to define many individual events.
  212. # [20:14] <Travis> Topic: Issue 170- Consider not deprecating DOMActivate.
  213. # [20:15] <smaug_> see http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10899
  214. # [20:15] <shepazu> ISSUE-170?
  215. # [20:15] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-170
  216. # [20:15] <trackbot> ISSUE-170 -- Consider not deprecating DOMActivate -- raised
  217. # [20:15] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/issues/170
  218. # [20:16] <Travis> shepazu: User agents are all handling 'click' events. You can 'click' most everything, but you can't activate everything...
  219. # [20:17] <Travis> ... applications in reality have had to adapt to the fact that 'click' is the new activate.
  220. # [20:18] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@111.188.6.231)
  221. # [20:18] * timeless nods, it's bad
  222. # [20:19] <Travis> ... If we do an intensional events (semantic events) spec, then having a generic catch-all 'activate' event in the same context as the other semantic events is good (and would succeed there).
  223. # [20:19] <Travis> ... Putting DOMActivate back into DOM L3 spec as it was before, will probably not succeed as it was intended.
  224. # [20:22] <Travis> ... The suppression of the lower-level events when a higher-level semantic event is used would need to be need (generally).
  225. # [20:23] * Quits: jrossi (836b0066@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC)
  226. # [20:24] * timeless eats dinner and asks that the last comment be minuted
  227. # [20:25] <Travis> jcraig: Having a new activate event that is more of an activate 'request' than the current after-the-fact notification may be much more appropriate.
  228. # [20:27] <jcraig> s/activate event that is more of an activate/activate event that can suppress subsequent event and is more of an activate/
  229. # [20:27] <jcraig> s/subsequent event/subsequent events/
  230. # [20:28] <Travis> shepazu: Re: Issue 170... DOMActivate not well supported across user agents. Again, deprecation is saying this may be removed in the future.
  231. # [20:29] * Joins: jrossi (836b0057@128.30.52.43)
  232. # [20:31] * Parts: jcraig (jcraig@17.226.23.163)
  233. # [20:32] <Travis> Resolution: Define a suitable replacement for DOMActivate in the semantic events spec. Do not un-deprecate DOMActivate in DOM L3 Events.
  234. # [20:32] <Travis> shepazu: Will review all issues and mark them with appropriate status.
  235. # [20:33] <shepazu> ISSUE-155?
  236. # [20:33] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-155
  237. # [20:33] <trackbot> ISSUE-155 -- Consider lowercasing 'text'Input' event -- raised
  238. # [20:33] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/issues/155
  239. # [20:35] <Travis> RESOLUTION: We will change textInput to textinput (lowercasing it).
  240. # [20:36] * tlr is now known as tlr-off
  241. # [20:36] * timeless asks scribe to mute
  242. # [20:38] <Travis> shepazu: We will have an extended call next week to review Last Call items before TPAC.
  243. # [20:39] <Travis> ... I'm adding a few new keys based on remote controls / media controls need.
  244. # [20:40] <Travis> Bye!
  245. # [20:41] * timeless thanks scribe
  246. # [20:43] * Quits: Travis (836b0069@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC)
  247. # [20:43] <shepazu> trackbot, end telcon
  248. # [20:43] * trackbot is ending a teleconference
  249. # [20:43] <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
  250. # [20:43] <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
  251. # [20:43] <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
  252. # [20:43] <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
  253. # [20:44] <shepazu> rats!
  254. # [20:51] * Quits: jrossi (836b0057@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
  255. # [21:25] * timeless ? no logger and no official meeting for it to log?
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  262. # [22:01] * Quits: tlr-off (tlr@128.30.52.169) (Quit: tlr-off)
  263. # [22:04] * Quits: karl (karlcow@128.30.54.58) (Client exited)
  264. # [22:22] * Quits: heycam (cam@203.97.204.82) (Quit: bye)
  265. # [22:22] * Joins: heycam (cam@203.97.204.82)
  266. # [22:26] * Quits: ArtB (ArtB@192.100.124.219) (Quit: Leaving.)
  267. # [22:36] * Joins: karl (karlcow@128.30.54.58)
  268. # [22:45] * Joins: aroben (aroben@17.203.12.32)
  269. # [22:52] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  270. # [22:52] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.169)
  271. # [22:59] * Joins: davidb (davidb@174.91.48.155)
  272. # [23:01] * Quits: davidb (davidb@174.91.48.155) (Quit: davidb)
  273. # [23:34] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@212.17.135.34)
  274. # Session Close: Thu Oct 21 00:00:00 2010

The end :)