/irc-logs / w3c / #webapps / 2010-11-01 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Nov 01 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #webapps
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  20. # [08:49] <bryan> Present+ Bryan_Sullivan
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  32. # [09:09] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-irc
  33. # [09:09] <Barstow> rrsagent, make log Public
  34. # [09:09] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, Barstow
  35. # [09:09] * Barstow is now known as ArtB
  36. # [09:09] <ArtB> ScribeNick: ArtB
  37. # [09:09] <ArtB> Chair: ArtB
  38. # [09:09] <ArtB> Meeting: WebApps F2F meeting
  39. # [09:10] <ArtB> Date: 1 November 2010
  40. # [09:11] * Joins: dsr (dsr@128.30.52.169)
  41. # [09:11] * Joins: adrianba (adrianba@84.14.50.82)
  42. # [09:11] <ArtB> Topic: WebIDL and TC39
  43. # [09:11] * Joins: kennyluck (kennyluck@128.30.52.28)
  44. # [09:12] <ArtB> Present: Adrian, Sam, Maciej, PLH, Bryan, DaveR, AnnB, AdamB
  45. # [09:12] * Joins: eliot (eliot@84.14.50.82)
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  49. # [09:16] <ArtB> Adrian: part of the next TC39 meeting (in ~2week) will include discussions with some people in WebApps
  50. # [09:17] <ArtB> ... there is a perception that the other group is not interested in working together
  51. # [09:17] <ArtB> ... for example TC39 people seem to think W3C people is not interested in working with them
  52. # [09:17] <ArtB> ... and within WebApps, there seems to some disinterest in working with TC39
  53. # [09:17] <ArtB> ... there are some tactical issues in the WebIDL spec that need to be resolved
  54. # [09:18] <ArtB> ... see f.ex. public-script-coord
  55. # [09:18] <ArtB> ... Need to talk about how to work together at a Strategic level
  56. # [09:18] <ArtB> ... We need to prioritize the work in both groups
  57. # [09:18] <ArtB> ... so there is better coordination
  58. # [09:18] <ArtB> ... For instance adding features need to be discussed
  59. # [09:19] <ArtB> ... The 2 groups have different timelines and there is a gap there that needs to be filled
  60. # [09:19] <ArtB> ... WebIDL is the key spec that has interest from both sides
  61. # [09:19] <ArtB> ... Microsoft people in TC39 have some issues with the structure of WebIDL spec
  62. # [09:19] * Joins: plh (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
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  64. # [09:19] <ArtB> ... Some parts of WebIDL may want to be deprecated
  65. # [09:20] <ArtB> ... f.ex. we don't want some old patterns continued
  66. # [09:20] <ArtB> ... Think we are talking passed each other a bit
  67. # [09:20] <plh> q+
  68. # [09:20] <ArtB> ... PLH has been involved in conversations with TC39 Chair
  69. # [09:21] * timeless_xchat arrives @site
  70. # [09:21] <ArtB> PLH: when I asked 6 mos ago if any WG wants to meet with TC39, no one responded
  71. # [09:21] <ArtB> ... Cam will be at TC39 meeting in two weeks
  72. # [09:21] <ArtB> ... Are there any other specs TC39 cares about?
  73. # [09:21] <ArtB> Adrian: WebIDl is certainly the key spec
  74. # [09:21] * Joins: Marcos (Marcos@84.215.169.13)
  75. # [09:21] <ArtB> ... but there are some other specs
  76. # [09:22] <anne> wait what, there's a WebApps WG meeting after all?
  77. # [09:22] * anne is in CSS
  78. # [09:22] <ArtB> ... The TC heard there were no other specs
  79. # [09:22] <ArtB> ... I don't think there is fault or blame here
  80. # [09:22] * mjs anne, a nunch of people showed up, so we're just sorta talking informally
  81. # [09:22] <ArtB> ... I just think there is a need for closer collaboration
  82. # [09:23] <anne> mjs, k thanks
  83. # [09:23] <ArtB> ... Think there should be a more formal relationship
  84. # [09:23] <ArtB> ... We all have the responsibility to raise the issues
  85. # [09:23] * timeless_xchat is lost
  86. # [09:23] * mjs anne, people might want to talk about more topics this afternoon, since I guess not everyone got the memo that there is no meeting today
  87. # [09:24] * mjs timeless_xchat, where are you now?
  88. # [09:24] <ArtB> ... As ES5 progresses, and more and more APIs @ W3C are written, I think there will be more collaboration that will be needed
  89. # [09:24] <ArtB> ... We must make sure ES and W3C APIs work well together
  90. # [09:24] <ArtB> ... Don't want a bunch of ad hoc APIS
  91. # [09:24] <ArtB> ... as that may create some interop probs
  92. # [09:25] * timeless_xchat @bert's cafe?
  93. # [09:25] <ArtB> ... Not sure how we fix the perception that neither group is interested in working with the other
  94. # [09:25] * Joins: adam (Adium@84.14.50.82)
  95. # [09:25] <ArtB> Maciej: one thing we can do is to have some coord calls
  96. # [09:25] <ArtB> ... can also have someone participate in both groups
  97. # [09:26] <ArtB> ... and make sure they are talking to both groups
  98. # [09:26] <ArtB> ... There can be issues where two people from the same company may disagree
  99. # [09:26] <ArtB> PLH: so far, WebIDL is the key spec
  100. # [09:27] <ArtB> ... Good news there is that Cam is back and he will be attending TC39 meeting at Apple in 2 weeks
  101. # [09:27] <ArtB> ... We do meet every couple of months with IETF with a specific agenda
  102. # [09:27] <ArtB> ... But if there is a need to talk about a specific issue, then that's different
  103. # [09:27] <ArtB> Adrian: the joint meeting is in a couple of weeks
  104. # [09:28] <ArtB> PLH: do we need to send a W3C staff member to the TC39 meeting?
  105. # [09:28] <ArtB> Adrian: no, I don't think that is necessary
  106. # [09:28] <ArtB> ... but I think the meeting should include a discussion about liaisions and next steps
  107. # [09:28] <ArtB> PLH: I can attend remotely
  108. # [09:29] <ArtB> ... will their be a phone?
  109. # [09:29] <ArtB> Maciej: yes, I think that can be arranged
  110. # [09:29] <ArtB> AB: that sounds like a good first step
  111. # [09:29] <ArtB> ... Is Chaals attending
  112. # [09:30] <ArtB> AB: has WebApps been invited to the meeting?
  113. # [09:30] <ArtB> Adrian: yes, I think WebApps was invited to the coordination part of the meeting
  114. # [09:31] <ArtB> PLH: I will send e-mail John re the Nov meeting
  115. # [09:31] <ArtB> Adrian: Maciej forwarded a related email to the list on Oct 11
  116. # [09:31] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
  117. # [09:31] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
  118. # [09:31] <adrianba> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2010OctDec/0073.html
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  123. # [09:35] <dsr> scribe: dsr
  124. # [09:36] <dsr> Art leaves for meeting with Protocols and Formats WG
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  127. # [09:38] <dsr> We review the list of specs to see which ones people are interested in discussing.
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  129. # [09:41] <dsr> The topics with the most interest are: CORS (1), Programmable Cache (2), Selectors API (2), We Sockets (4), Web Storage (1), Web Workers(3), XBL (2).
  130. # [09:41] * ArtB notes WebApps publication list: http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/PubStatus
  131. # [09:43] * timeless_mbp asks scribe to raise hand
  132. # [09:43] * timeless_mbp can scribe at some point...
  133. # [09:43] * Joins: Martijnc (Martijnc@91.176.19.240)
  134. # [09:44] <dsr> Topic: Web Sockets
  135. # [09:44] * timeless_mbp thinks we should list the tentative schedule for Art
  136. # [09:44] * timeless_mbp is now known as timeless
  137. # [09:44] <dsr> Main question is to update the API spec in line with the progress of work on the protocol spec.
  138. # [09:45] <dsr> [ we plan to discuss web sockets until the morning coffee break]
  139. # [09:46] * Quits: anne (annevk@84.14.50.82) (Quit: anne)
  140. # [09:46] <dsr> There is now a method to support a clean shutdown of the connection and we could consider a way to indicate at the API level whether the connection closed cleanly or not.
  141. # [09:47] <dsr> Another question is whether to support different data types other than UTF-8 strings
  142. # [09:47] <dsr> The emerging standard for small amounts of data is array buffer.
  143. # [09:47] <dsr> Hixie has added something related to connection shutdown.
  144. # [09:48] * Joins: anne (annevk@84.14.50.82)
  145. # [09:49] <dsr> The protocol is being developed in the IETF. If you are interested in implementing web sockets, recommend that you get involved with the IETF group.
  146. # [09:49] <dsr> Protocol issues fall into 2 categories: handshake and message framing.
  147. # [09:50] * Joins: eliot (eliot@84.14.50.82)
  148. # [09:50] <dsr> Framing - support for fragmentation and different kinds of encodings.
  149. # [09:51] <dsr> Handshake - key design issue is to ensure for security purposes that you can't attach/exploit HTTP servers.
  150. # [09:51] <dsr> s/attach/attack/
  151. # [09:52] * Quits: timeless (timeless@84.14.50.82) (Client exited)
  152. # [09:52] <dsr> Lots of email traffic, but plenty still to be resolved.
  153. # [09:53] <dsr> Implementations?
  154. # [09:53] <dsr> Microsoft demoed an implementation at last IETF meeting
  155. # [09:54] * Joins: timeless_mbp (timeless@84.14.50.82)
  156. # [09:54] <dsr> Hoping big protocol questions will be resolved in next few months.
  157. # [09:57] <dsr> [ IETF HyBy WG: http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/wiki/HyBi ]
  158. # [09:58] * Joins: Johnson (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  159. # [09:58] <dsr> PLH asks about status of Selectors API
  160. # [09:59] <dsr> Some questions relating to test suite
  161. # [10:00] <dsr> s/HyBy/HyBi/
  162. # [10:00] <plh> Anne: pb is with default for stringified for unidefined and null
  163. # [10:00] <timeless_mbp> s/uni/un/
  164. # [10:01] * Quits: plh (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
  165. # [10:01] <dsr> Question on support for binary data for web sockets.
  166. # [10:02] <dsr> This is under consideration, possibly as array buffer or blob format
  167. # [10:02] <dsr> Anne: there may be support for specific streaming formats.
  168. # [10:03] <dsr> Any reason why people don't want to use RTSP?
  169. # [10:04] <dsr> Certainly, RTSP is a reasonable option. Streaming over HTTP is also quite active.
  170. # [10:04] <dsr> Firewalls can tilt the balance in favor of HTTP.
  171. # [10:05] * Joins: mmielke (mmielke@84.14.50.82)
  172. # [10:05] <dsr> What about SIP?
  173. # [10:06] <dsr> No one has hooked SIP to the browser as yet. But one issue is the size of the specs for SIP.
  174. # [10:07] <adrianba> RRSAgent, make minutes
  175. # [10:07] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-minutes.html adrianba
  176. # [10:08] <timeless_mbp> Present+ timeless
  177. # [10:09] <wonsuk> Present+ Wonsuk Lee
  178. # [10:09] <timeless_mbp> [STUN: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Session_Traversal_Utilities_for_NAT]
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  180. # [10:09] <eliot> present+ Eliot
  181. # [10:10] <adam> Present+ AdamB
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  183. # [10:10] <dsr> Any interest in using web sockets peer to peer? This would involve some API/protocol support for setting up the connection.
  184. # [10:10] <dsr> Yes, hixie has specified some steps, but Anne notes that the protocol part is left blank.
  185. # [10:11] <dsr> This could involve IETF standards e.g. STUN and TURN.
  186. # [10:11] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@84.14.50.82)
  187. # [10:12] <dsr> The discover process could involve a web server where users register for a session.
  188. # [10:12] <dsr> s/discover/discovery/
  189. # [10:12] <timeless_mbp> [ WebSockets over UDP http://www.mail-archive.com/whatwg@lists.whatwg.org/msg21749.html ]
  190. # [10:13] <dsr> UDP is of interest for gaming
  191. # [10:13] <timeless_mbp> s/Wonsuk Lee/WonsukLee/
  192. # [10:13] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.169)
  193. # [10:14] <timeless_mbp> [ SCTP: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stream_Control_Transmission_Protocol ]
  194. # [10:14] <dsr> SCTP might be worth looking at.
  195. # [10:15] <dsr> But runs into problems with firewalling
  196. # [10:15] <shepazu> there is no WebApps WG meeting today, right?
  197. # [10:15] * dsr an informal meeting only
  198. # [10:16] * timeless_mbp notes that we are being scribed
  199. # [10:16] <dsr> WonSuk: what is the relationship between websockets and CORS?
  200. # [10:17] <dsr> Anne: they are unrelated, but you could say they are connected via the same origin check
  201. # [10:17] * dsr wonders where shepazu is right now?
  202. # [10:18] <dsr> Any open source web sockets implementations as yet?
  203. # [10:18] <dsr> Python, Java and a few others.
  204. # [10:19] * shepazu is in CSS
  205. # [10:19] <timeless_mbp> [ some impls: http://websox.org/ ]
  206. # [10:19] * Quits: DanD (ddruta@84.14.50.82) (Ping timeout)
  207. # [10:19] <dsr> DSR thinking about live editing via websockets.
  208. # [10:20] <dsr> Anne: definite advantage for anything realtime.
  209. # [10:21] <adam> java impl - http://www.eclipse.org/jetty/ Jetty provides an Web server and http://java.sun.com/javaee/5/docs/api/javax/servlet/package-summary.html container, plus support for Web Sockets,
  210. # [10:21] <dsr> Doug wanders in ...
  211. # [10:24] * Joins: arve (arve@213.236.208.22)
  212. # [10:24] <dsr> rrsagent, make minutes
  213. # [10:24] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-minutes.html dsr
  214. # [10:25] <dsr> Doug: any interest in talking about touch and table related APIs?
  215. # [10:27] <dsr> Yes, but let's wait for Art to come back after coffee
  216. # [10:28] * Quits: adam (Adium@84.14.50.82) (Quit: Leaving.)
  217. # [10:28] <dsr> we break for coffee
  218. # [10:28] <timeless_mbp> Break For Coffee
  219. # [10:29] * Quits: mjs (mjs@84.14.50.82) (Quit: mjs)
  220. # [10:29] * ArtB did somebody say COFFEE!
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  222. # [10:30] <ArtB> ACTION: barstow P&C spec: make it clear in the Abtract or Intro that P&C widgets != UI controls
  223. # [10:30] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  224. # [10:30] * RRSAgent records action 1
  225. # [10:30] <trackbot> Created ACTION-593 - P&C spec: make it clear in the Abtract or Intro that P&C widgets != UI controls [on Arthur Barstow - due 2010-11-08].
  226. # [10:34] * Quits: mmielke (mmielke@84.14.50.82) (Ping timeout)
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  229. # [10:37] <ArtB> ACTION: caceres notify P&F WG when the P&C Conformance Checker is published
  230. # [10:37] * RRSAgent records action 2
  231. # [10:37] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  232. # [10:37] <trackbot> Created ACTION-594 - Notify P&F WG when the P&C Conformance Checker is published [on Marcos Caceres - due 2010-11-08].
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  237. # [11:03] <dsr> n.b. http://yz.mit.edu/wp/web-sockets-tutorial-with-simple-python-server/
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  243. # [11:11] <Barstow> RRSAgent, make minutes
  244. # [11:11] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-minutes.html Barstow
  245. # [11:11] * Joins: mmielke (mmielke@84.14.50.82)
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  248. # [11:12] <bryan> Present+ Bryan_Sullivan
  249. # [11:13] * Joins: hsivonen (hsivonen@130.233.41.50)
  250. # [11:13] * Joins: zhang-chinaunicom (IceChat77@84.14.50.82)
  251. # [11:13] <dsr> we resume after the coffee break
  252. # [11:14] * Joins: wuj (IceChat77@84.14.50.82)
  253. # [11:14] <timeless_mbp> Scribe: timeless_mbp
  254. # [11:14] <timeless_mbp> Topic: Introductions
  255. # [11:15] <timeless_mbp> Laslo G - Nokia
  256. # [11:15] * Barstow Laszlo_Gombos
  257. # [11:15] <timeless_mbp> Yael A - Nokia
  258. # [11:15] <timeless_mbp> Olli P - Nokia
  259. # [11:15] <timeless_mbp> Ta - Sony
  260. # [11:15] <timeless_mbp> Henri Sivonen - Mozilla
  261. # [11:15] <timeless_mbp> s/Nokia/Mozilla/
  262. # [11:15] * Joins: adrianba (adrianba@84.14.50.82)
  263. # [11:15] <timeless_mbp> Brian S - AT&T
  264. # [11:15] * Joins: aizu_ (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  265. # [11:16] * Joins: adam (Adium@84.14.50.82)
  266. # [11:16] <timeless_mbp> Chung - China Unicom
  267. # [11:16] * Joins: eliot (eliot@84.14.50.82)
  268. # [11:16] <zhang-chinaunicom> zhang chengyan from chinaunicom
  269. # [11:16] <timeless_mbp> s/Chung/Zhang Chengyan/
  270. # [11:16] * Joins: lgombos_ (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  271. # [11:16] <bryan> s/Brian S - AT&T/Bryan Sullivan, AT&T
  272. # [11:17] * Joins: kennyluck (kennyluck@128.30.52.28)
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  274. # [11:17] <wuj> wujing from chinaunicom
  275. # [11:17] <junliao> I am here
  276. # [11:17] <timeless_mbp> Jun Liao - China Unicom
  277. # [11:18] <Johnson> johnson from Nokia
  278. # [11:18] <timeless_mbp> Elena R - Institute Telecom
  279. # [11:18] <timeless_mbp> s/com/com Paris/
  280. # [11:18] * Quits: mjs (mjs@84.14.50.82) (Connection reset by peer)
  281. # [11:18] * Joins: mjs (mjs@84.14.50.82)
  282. # [11:18] <timeless_mbp> Ronsong Lee - ETRI Korea
  283. # [11:18] <adrianba> Adrian Bateman from Microsoft
  284. # [11:18] <dsr> s/Ronsong/WonSuk/
  285. # [11:18] <eliot> Eliot Graff from Microsoft
  286. # [11:18] <timeless_mbp> Josh Soref - Nokia
  287. # [11:18] * Quits: aizu_ (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  288. # [11:19] <wonsuk> s/Ronsong Lee/Wonsuk Lee/
  289. # [11:19] * Joins: BoChen (IceChat7@84.14.50.82)
  290. # [11:19] <anne> Anne van Kesteren - Opera
  291. # [11:19] <timeless_mbp> Mike Smith - W3C
  292. # [11:19] <adam> Adam Boyet from Boeing
  293. # [11:19] <weinig> Sam Weinig - Apple
  294. # [11:19] <timeless_mbp> Doug S - W3C
  295. # [11:19] <dsr> Dave Raggett, W3C
  296. # [11:19] <mjs> Maciej Stachowiak - Apple
  297. # [11:19] <BoChen> Bo Chen for ChinaUnicom
  298. # [11:19] <timeless_mbp> SJ Lee - LG Electronics
  299. # [11:19] <anne> (who is the third from Apple who just got in?)
  300. # [11:20] <weinig> anne: Geoffrey Garen
  301. # [11:20] <anne> aaah
  302. # [11:20] <timeless_mbp> Han Chu Li - LG Electronics
  303. # [11:20] <anne> never met
  304. # [11:20] <timeless_mbp> Yung Yu Chan - LG Electronics (observer)
  305. # [11:20] <timeless_mbp> Hiro I - Toshiba
  306. # [11:20] * Quits: Marcos (Marcos@84.215.169.13) (Quit: Marcos)
  307. # [11:20] <timeless_mbp> Tai S - Jig.jp
  308. # [11:21] <timeless_mbp> Scribe: dsr
  309. # [11:21] * Barstow s/Doug Schepers/Neil Young look-a-like/
  310. # [11:21] <timeless_mbp> ScribeNick: dsr
  311. # [11:21] * BoChen is now known as Bo_Chen
  312. # [11:21] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  313. # [11:21] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
  314. # [11:21] <timeless_mbp> Geoffrey Garen - Apple
  315. # [11:22] <dsr> Topic: Web Workers
  316. # [11:22] * Joins: IceGuest_77 (IceChat77@84.14.50.82)
  317. # [11:22] <dsr> Art: Hixie's HTML5 workload is slowing down progress on the web workers spec
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  319. # [11:23] <dsr> Ian want's to move the spec to last call status
  320. # [11:23] * Quits: Johnson (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
  321. # [11:23] * shepazu http://stss.files.wordpress.com/2006/04/neil-young-y-03.jpg
  322. # [11:24] <dsr> Art: we need to process all the last cal comments and if anyone wants to volunteer to help with that, feel free to come forward.
  323. # [11:24] <timeless_mbp> s/cal/call/
  324. # [11:24] <dsr> Where can we find the bug list?
  325. # [11:24] <Barstow> ACTION: barstow Web Workers: add link to bug database to the PubStatus page
  326. # [11:24] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  327. # [11:24] * RRSAgent records action 3
  328. # [11:24] <trackbot> Created ACTION-595 - Web Workers: add link to bug database to the PubStatus page [on Arthur Barstow - due 2010-11-08].
  329. # [11:24] <dsr> Anne: don't know of any outstanding issues
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  333. # [11:25] <dsr> if there have been multiple implementations and few comments, that's usually a good sign.
  334. # [11:26] <dsr> We think Firefox and Opera have implementations.
  335. # [11:26] <dsr> Anne: we are working on getting out a test suite
  336. # [11:26] * Joins: yongil_jang (540e3252@207.192.75.252)
  337. # [11:26] <dsr> Do we need an implementation report to get to Last Call.
  338. # [11:26] <dsr> No that's needed to exit CR
  339. # [11:27] <dsr> Art repeats his request for volunteers.
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  342. # [11:27] <dsr> Do we have any thoughts on good candidates for the work?
  343. # [11:28] <dsr> Doug asks if any of the actual implementors are in the room? [No]
  344. # [11:28] <dsr> companies yes
  345. # [11:30] <Barstow> ACTION: barstow Web Workers: work with Team to find resource(s) to review LC comments and plan for Candidate
  346. # [11:30] * RRSAgent records action 4
  347. # [11:30] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  348. # [11:30] <trackbot> Created ACTION-596 - Web Workers: work with Team to find resource(s) to review LC comments and plan for Candidate [on Arthur Barstow - due 2010-11-08].
  349. # [11:30] <dsr> We agree on value of shared test suite, but once a spec reaches a certain level of stability, energy dries up
  350. # [11:31] <timeless_mbp> … and resources get reallocated
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  354. # [11:31] <dsr> Mike: are there any big applications of web workers out there?
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  357. # [11:33] <dsr> Doug: want to avoid diverging implementations due to lack of shared test suite.
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  359. # [11:33] <dsr> Implementors keen to see feedback from application developers
  360. # [11:34] <smaug_> hmm, there is no https for www.w3.org/Bugs :/
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  363. # [11:34] <dsr> Maciej: I am interested to see progress on web messaging
  364. # [11:34] <timeless_mbp> smaug_: file a bug ;-)
  365. # [11:35] * Joins: Seung-Jae (sjae.lee@84.14.50.82)
  366. # [11:35] <dsr> Anne: I will follow up on the test suites work within Opera.
  367. # [11:35] <dsr> http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/PubStatus
  368. # [11:36] <dsr> for list of specs which are pending availability of time from editor
  369. # [11:36] * Joins: Hyeonsoo (hyeonsoo.l@84.14.50.82)
  370. # [11:37] <Barstow> ACTION: barstow PubStatus update Plans for Workers/Storage/Event-source that HTML5 Editor workload is the block and ask for volunteers
  371. # [11:37] * RRSAgent records action 5
  372. # [11:37] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  373. # [11:37] <trackbot> Created ACTION-597 - PubStatus update Plans for Workers/Storage/Event-source that HTML5 Editor workload is the block and ask for volunteers [on Arthur Barstow - due 2010-11-08].
  374. # [11:37] <dsr> Art: do we definitely want web messaging split out of HTML5?
  375. # [11:38] <dsr> Maciej: publishing web messaging as a first WD is the next step.
  376. # [11:38] * Quits: lgombos_ (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  377. # [11:38] <Barstow> ACTION: barstow start a CfC to publish a FPWD of Web Messaging
  378. # [11:38] * RRSAgent records action 6
  379. # [11:38] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  380. # [11:38] <trackbot> Created ACTION-598 - Start a CfC to publish a FPWD of Web Messaging [on Arthur Barstow - due 2010-11-08].
  381. # [11:39] <dsr> Anne: could we make the first WD a Last Call?
  382. # [11:39] <dsr> No, but preference is to first do regular WD for 4 weeks before moving to Last Call
  383. # [11:40] <dsr> Adrian will find someone from Microsoft to help with this, and may be even to contribute some tests.
  384. # [11:40] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  385. # [11:40] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
  386. # [11:40] <dsr> Topic: Programmable Cache
  387. # [11:41] <dsr> see http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/DataCache/
  388. # [11:41] <timeless_mbp> [ data cache: http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-DataCache-20091029/ ]
  389. # [11:41] * Joins: Marcos (Marcos@213.236.208.247)
  390. # [11:41] * timeless_mbp is nikunj here?
  391. # [11:41] * timeless_mbp … @tpac
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  393. # [11:42] <Barstow> ACTION: barstow ask Nikunj to report the status and plans of Programmable Cache to public-webapps
  394. # [11:42] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  395. # [11:42] * RRSAgent records action 7
  396. # [11:42] <trackbot> Created ACTION-599 - Ask Nikunj to report the status and plans of Programmable Cache to public-webapps [on Arthur Barstow - due 2010-11-08].
  397. # [11:42] <dsr> What is the timeline for this work item?
  398. # [11:42] <dsr> The current editor has changed companies, so we are looking for a new editor.
  399. # [11:43] <Barstow> ACTION: barstow ask Oracle about their level of interest in Programmable Cache
  400. # [11:43] * RRSAgent records action 8
  401. # [11:43] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  402. # [11:43] <trackbot> Created ACTION-600 - Ask Oracle about their level of interest in Programmable Cache [on Arthur Barstow - due 2010-11-08].
  403. # [11:43] <dsr> Woksuk: I am interested in helping with this.
  404. # [11:43] <dsr> s/Woksuk/Wonsuk/
  405. # [11:44] <dsr> Adrian: looking for better alignment between the specs for programmable cache and html5 application cache.
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  409. # [11:44] <MikeSmith> thread from July 2009:
  410. # [11:44] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009JulSep/thread.html#msg260
  411. # [11:44] <dsr> Anne: spec last updated Jan 2010
  412. # [11:45] * Joins: junliao (IceChat7@84.14.50.82)
  413. # [11:46] <dsr> Doug: do we need to do a use case and requirements analysis, and to look at extending the application cache, is it sufficiently flexible?
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  416. # [11:46] <dsr> Art: at this point better to work on this in separate spec rather than merging them.
  417. # [11:47] <dsr> Maciej: app cache comes from work in Google Gears, original use cases still exist.
  418. # [11:48] <dsr> Adrian: moving this forward depends on people's interest in driving it
  419. # [11:49] <dsr> Perhaps we need to ask for feedback on limitations of the app cache?
  420. # [11:50] <MikeSmith> Mark Nottingham message about problems with the programmable cache api - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009JulSep/0278.html
  421. # [11:51] <dsr> Doug: would be useful to have an organizational memory for all this
  422. # [11:51] <MikeSmith> q?
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  424. # [11:51] <dsr> Adrian: we would still need to find someone to work on use cases and requirements - could be a consumer not a vendor
  425. # [11:52] <Barstow> ACTION: barstow ask public-webapps about creating Use Cases and requirements of Program App Caches versus HTML5 App Cache
  426. # [11:52] * RRSAgent records action 9
  427. # [11:52] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  428. # [11:52] <trackbot> Created ACTION-601 - Ask public-webapps about creating Use Cases and requirements of Program App Caches versus HTML5 App Cache [on Arthur Barstow - due 2010-11-08].
  429. # [11:52] <dsr> Facebook as a candidate?
  430. # [11:53] <timeless_mbp> MikeSmith: julian reschke from IETF HTTP.next
  431. # [11:54] <timeless_mbp> MikeSmith: Mark Nottingham
  432. # [11:54] * timeless_mbp is now known as timeless
  433. # [11:55] <shepazu> Action: Barstow to contact julian reschke and Mark Nottingham about Data Cache
  434. # [11:55] * RRSAgent records action 10
  435. # [11:55] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  436. # [11:55] <trackbot> Created ACTION-602 - Contact julian reschke and Mark Nottingham about Data Cache [on Arthur Barstow - due 2010-11-08].
  437. # [11:56] <dsr> Topic: Selectors API
  438. # [11:57] <dsr> Discussion on WebIDL default as key to progressing Selectors spec
  439. # [11:58] <dsr> Maciej: some implementations may need to change
  440. # [11:59] <dsr> Adrian: would that block PR?
  441. # [11:59] <dsr> we want to straighten this out in short order.
  442. # [12:00] <dsr> Maciej: keen to sort out Level 2 of the Selectors API
  443. # [12:02] <dsr> Anne discusses some of the details of what may be dropped
  444. # [12:02] * Lachy waves
  445. # [12:03] <mjs> hi Lachy!
  446. # [12:03] <Lachy> hi
  447. # [12:03] <anne> Lachy, when are you making the edits you were planning on making?
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  449. # [12:03] <mjs> we were just talking about Selectors API a bit
  450. # [12:03] <mjs> was wondering when Level 2 will settle down
  451. # [12:04] <Lachy> I don't know when I'll be doing it, cause it depends on when I get allocated to a relevant task, but at this stage, I think I'm going to drop the queryScopedSelector methods, as they're a bit of a mess.
  452. # [12:04] <Lachy> the rest of it should be relatively stable.
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  454. # [12:05] <Lachy> so :scope will stay, matchesSelector will stay.
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  456. # [12:05] <dsr> Art: let's take the rest of the selector's discussion to the list. next topic XBL2
  457. # [12:05] <dsr> Topic: XBL2
  458. # [12:06] <dsr> Some discussion has occurred on possibility of mapping XBL2 from XML to JSON.
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  460. # [12:07] <dsr> Could be some syntactic sugar on top of DOM APIs to make some of the use cases simpler, but we are blocked on lack of implementations for XBL2
  461. # [12:08] <dsr> Anne: manifest attribute in place of processing instructions
  462. # [12:08] <MikeSmith> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2010JulSep/0912.html related message from Tab in September
  463. # [12:08] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  464. # [12:08] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
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  468. # [12:09] <dsr> Lots of experience in using JavaScript for binding, and desire for common solution, but there are complications
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  473. # [12:11] <dsr> XBL2 is awaiting implementation feedback.
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  476. # [12:11] <dsr> Hixie did provide a revised spec, but there isn't agreement on the changes.
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  478. # [12:12] <Barstow> Olli: I don't agree with the recent changes Hixie made to XBL
  479. # [12:12] <Barstow> ... think it limits the scope too much
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  483. # [12:13] <dsr> We plan to resume at 1:30
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  485. # [12:13] <dsr> rrsagent, make minutes
  486. # [12:13] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-minutes.html dsr
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  488. # [12:14] * Barstow thanks DSR for the minutes!
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  539. # [13:52] <dsr> Art restarts the meeting
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  542. # [13:52] <anne> pointer to agenda for tomorrow?
  543. # [13:53] <dsr> Art ran in to the TAG folks in the corridor and some of them are able to drop in if we need them.
  544. # [13:53] <anne> http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/TPAC2010
  545. # [13:53] * Joins: mjs (mjs@84.14.50.82)
  546. # [13:54] <dsr> Doug: some I18N people would like to talk to us about a few topics tomorrow, and I would like to discuss those topics briefly today.
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  550. # [13:55] <dsr> Anne: I want to talk about modularization of DOM3 events.
  551. # [13:55] <dsr> Art: let's take that tomorrow.
  552. # [13:55] * Joins: aizu_ (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  553. # [13:56] <dsr> Use of XHR in widgets and specific meaning of origin.
  554. # [13:57] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
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  557. # [13:57] <dsr> Art: we should defer CORS and web storage until the TAG folks are ready.
  558. # [13:58] * Joins: homata (homata@84.14.50.82)
  559. # [13:58] <Barstow> here is DAP's Pub status page: http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/
  560. # [13:58] <dsr> Topic: Clipboard
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  564. # [13:59] <dsr> Chaals worked in Clipboard initially, followed by Hixie.
  565. # [14:00] * Joins: bryan (blsaws@84.14.50.82)
  566. # [14:01] <dsr> Anne: my colleague (Halverd?) has been studying behavior across browsers.
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  569. # [14:01] <anne> "Hallvord R. M. Steen" <hallvord@opera.com>
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  571. # [14:01] <timeless_mbp> s/Halverd/Hallvord/
  572. # [14:02] <dsr> Anne: we can safely say that Chaals has stopped working on the Clipboard spec.
  573. # [14:02] * Quits: mjs (mjs@84.14.50.82) (Quit: mjs)
  574. # [14:02] <dsr> Doug: I was an editor and stopped working on it when I saw Hixie picking it up in HTML5.
  575. # [14:03] <dsr> Anne: we may have an editor for copy and paste. Hixie has said this won't be part of the HTML5 spec,
  576. # [14:03] <shepazu> Hallvord Steen
  577. # [14:03] <Barstow> AB: "Editor is not working on this spec. We may have an Editor for the copy-and-paste part."
  578. # [14:04] <dsr> (for the pub status table)
  579. # [14:04] <dsr> Doug: I volunteer to update the draft to point to relevant work elsewhere (this draft is obsolete, please refer to ...)
  580. # [14:04] * Joins: mjs (mjs@84.14.50.82)
  581. # [14:05] <Barstow> AB: Doug, et. al http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/PubStatus#API_Specifications
  582. # [14:05] * Joins: freedom (freedom@84.14.50.82)
  583. # [14:07] <dsr> Art projects the pub status page http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/PubStatus
  584. # [14:07] * Quits: Marcos (Marcos@213.236.208.22) (Ping timeout)
  585. # [14:08] <dsr> Art updates the pub status for Clipboard as above,
  586. # [14:08] * Joins: Bo_Chen (IceChat7@84.14.50.82)
  587. # [14:08] <Barstow> ACTION: Doug update Editor's Draft of Window spec to say the spec is no longer active
  588. # [14:08] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  589. # [14:08] <trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - Doug
  590. # [14:08] <trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. dstamper, schepers)
  591. # [14:08] * RRSAgent records action 11
  592. # [14:09] <Barstow> ACTION: schepers update Editor's Draft of Window and REX specs to say the specs are no longer active
  593. # [14:09] * RRSAgent records action 12
  594. # [14:09] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  595. # [14:09] <trackbot> Created ACTION-603 - Update Editor's Draft of Window and REX specs to say the specs are no longer active [on Doug Schepers - due 2010-11-08].
  596. # [14:11] * Joins: anthony_work (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  597. # [14:12] <dsr> Anne: move element traversal into DOM4 ...
  598. # [14:12] * Joins: zhang-chinaunicom (IceChat77@84.14.50.82)
  599. # [14:12] <dsr> Art: are there any process issues for that
  600. # [14:13] <dsr> Some discussuion whether we will discuss UMP
  601. # [14:14] <dsr> Art: if we do discuss UMP, we should ensure the TAG is represented
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  603. # [14:15] <dsr> Art: server-sent events, anyone interested in discussing that?
  604. # [14:15] * Quits: zhang-chinaunicom (IceChat77@84.14.50.82) (Connection reset by peer)
  605. # [14:15] <dsr> Currently blocked on HTML5 workload
  606. # [14:15] <anne> http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/charter/#decisions
  607. # [14:16] * Joins: DKA (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  608. # [14:17] <Barstow> ACTION: barstow work with WebApps Team and Anne to find a way for W3C to host Opera's event-source tests
  609. # [14:17] * RRSAgent records action 13
  610. # [14:17] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  611. # [14:17] <trackbot> Created ACTION-604 - Work with WebApps Team and Anne to find a way for W3C to host Opera's event-source tests [on Arthur Barstow - due 2010-11-08].
  612. # [14:17] <dsr> Anne: I published a test suite, but to publish it on W3C site we need some decision on hosting PHP scripts
  613. # [14:17] * Joins: hidetaka (hidetaka@84.14.50.82)
  614. # [14:17] <anne> http://tc.labs.opera.com/apis/XMLHttpRequest/ and http://tc.labs.opera.com/apis/EventSource/
  615. # [14:17] <dsr> Dom: depending on the kind of PHP script there should be a way to host it on a W3C server.
  616. # [14:17] <anne> http://tc.labs.opera.com/svn
  617. # [14:18] <dsr> Anne: all the code is available if you have subversion
  618. # [14:18] <Barstow> ACTION: barstow add Opera's test suite for EventSource to the PubStatus page (see mins from 1-Nov-2010 for the link)
  619. # [14:18] * RRSAgent records action 14
  620. # [14:18] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  621. # [14:18] <trackbot> Created ACTION-605 - Add Opera's test suite for EventSource to the PubStatus page (see mins from 1-Nov-2010 for the link) [on Arthur Barstow - due 2010-11-08].
  622. # [14:19] * dom doesn't see PHP files in http://tc.labs.opera.com/svn/apis/XMLHttpRequest/
  623. # [14:19] * dom finds http://tc.labs.opera.com/svn/apis/XMLHttpRequest/resources/
  624. # [14:19] <dsr> Chaals walks in and is introduced by Doug :)
  625. # [14:19] * Joins: chaals (chaals@84.14.50.82)
  626. # [14:20] <chaals> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  627. # [14:20] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-minutes.html chaals
  628. # [14:20] * Joins: noah (noah_mende@84.14.50.82)
  629. # [14:20] <chaals> Present+ chaals
  630. # [14:20] <anne> dom, one is somewhat evil, writing and reading files
  631. # [14:21] <dom> brrr
  632. # [14:21] <dom> any chance you could document a bit more what they do and what they require?
  633. # [14:21] * Joins: darobin (robin@84.14.50.82)
  634. # [14:21] <anne> there's no localStorage in PHP
  635. # [14:21] * Joins: freedom_ (freedom@140.113.17.209)
  636. # [14:21] <dsr> The TAG will join us at 4pm.
  637. # [14:21] <anne> dom, basically access to everything from the request and being able to do pretty much anything in the response
  638. # [14:22] <anne> dom, and some kind of state thing on the server
  639. # [14:22] <dsr> Topic: WebSQL
  640. # [14:22] <dom> right; I was thinking of actually comments in the PHP code :)
  641. # [14:22] <anne> dom, come on, it's only a couple of lines
  642. # [14:22] <dsr> Same situation as a year or more,
  643. # [14:23] <dsr> two implementations but no will to move it forward
  644. # [14:23] <dom> they are, anne, but these things will have to be maintained for X years; I'm thinking to the poor soul that will have to port these things to PHP 12 (or Scala 5)
  645. # [14:23] <dsr> Chaals: we can republish it as a NOTE
  646. # [14:24] <dsr> Anne: we still think it's interesting and don't want to remove it.
  647. # [14:24] <dsr> Doug: we can change to a Note and when interest renews, we can bring it back
  648. # [14:25] * timeless_mbp s/when/if/
  649. # [14:26] <dsr> Art displays the current spec which notes in red that we only have implementations on top of SQLite and don't have a separate spec for the subset of SQL involved.
  650. # [14:26] <dsr> DSR: is it a strict subset of SQL standard?
  651. # [14:27] <dsr> No, it also includes some extensions
  652. # [14:27] <dsr> Dom: picking up the subset definition may also trigger IPR disclosure process.
  653. # [14:28] <dom> s/picking up the subset definition may also trigger IPR disclosure process./the only drawback of switching to Note is that you would have to restart the IPR process to bring it back to Rec-track/
  654. # [14:28] <dsr> We agree to republish as a WG Note
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  657. # [14:29] * timeless_mbp Chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs),
  658. # [14:29] <Barstow> ACTION: barstow start a CfC to publish Web SQL Database as a Working Group Note (and hence signal the spec is no longer on the REC track)
  659. # [14:29] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  660. # [14:29] * RRSAgent records action 15
  661. # [14:29] <trackbot> Created ACTION-606 - Start a CfC to publish Web SQL Database as a Working Group Note (and hence signal the spec is no longer on the REC track) [on Arthur Barstow - due 2010-11-08].
  662. # [14:29] * Joins: Seung-Jae (sjae.lee@84.14.50.82)
  663. # [14:30] <dsr> Topic: XHR + Widgets
  664. # [14:30] <anne> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2010OctDec/0391.html
  665. # [14:30] <dsr> Brian posted email on this ...
  666. # [14:31] <dsr> Brian explains complications relating to cross domain security model.
  667. # [14:32] * Quits: lgombos_ (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  668. # [14:32] <dsr> Brian widgets have no defined origin
  669. # [14:33] <dsr> DSR asks why widgets don't have an origin
  670. # [14:33] <dsr> Explanations relating to not wanting to leak information,
  671. # [14:34] <dsr> installed apps need to satisfy a higher bar for security.
  672. # [14:35] <dsr> Signed widgets could imply an origin, but how would this be used in a protocol like redirect
  673. # [14:35] <noah> NM: As a tracking mechanism, I could typically track two actions: one long term for the complete result, linking to the detailed goals; the other short term for the next draft
  674. # [14:35] <noah> LMM: My focus is more on the quality of the result than on the date
  675. # [14:35] <noah> LMM: We should have output regularly
  676. # [14:36] <noah> AM: Difficulty in getting reviewing
  677. # [14:36] * Barstow thinks noah is typing in wrong channel!
  678. # [14:36] * noah he is, sorry
  679. # [14:36] <dsr> Brian: if I issue a request vis XHR and it pings around several redirects, do I as an app author need to do anything to be involved in the redirects
  680. # [14:37] <dsr> Brian: user agent is supposed to retain security token from redirect response.
  681. # [14:38] <dsr> Soref: Similar story applies to plugins with events for each redirect
  682. # [14:39] <timeless_mbp> https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/plugin-futures/2010-October/000168.html
  683. # [14:39] <timeless_mbp> https://wiki.mozilla.org/NPAPI:HTTPRedirectHandling
  684. # [14:39] <dsr> Anne: are you saying redirects don't work with OAUTH today?
  685. # [14:40] <dsr> Brian: you lose information and your app would have to be OAUTH aware
  686. # [14:40] <timeless_mbp> http://developer.linkedin.com/message/1032;jsessionid=704AF1CC292EA4F8582CB7C91B21F7C7.node0#1032
  687. # [14:40] <dsr> Anne: aren't redirects supposed to be transparent
  688. # [14:40] <timeless_mbp> 1. Oct 26, 2009 12:28 PM in response to: caleb
  689. # [14:40] <timeless_mbp> Re: OAuth Redirect not happening?
  690. # [14:40] <timeless_mbp> Did you add your oauth_callback parameter to the requestToken request or the authorize request?
  691. # [14:40] <timeless_mbp> If the latter then we default to an out-of-band callback.
  692. # [14:40] <timeless_mbp> You may need to insure that your oauth library is using 1.0a.
  693. # [14:41] <dsr> Brian: twitter and others are including info in redirect responses.
  694. # [14:41] <timeless_mbp> [OAuth http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5849]
  695. # [14:43] <dsr> Anne: it is kind of weird that widgets want to follow web model but not in full
  696. # [14:44] <dsr> We shouldn't conflict this use of redirects with widgets spec as it applies more generally
  697. # [14:45] <dsr> Right now our security model is origin based.
  698. # [14:46] <dsr> s/conflict/conflate/
  699. # [14:46] <dsr> origin doesn't have to be an HTTP URI
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  701. # [14:47] <dsr> Anne: CORS does have a wildcard for URI
  702. # [14:48] <hsivonen> q+
  703. # [14:48] <timeless_mbp> ack hsivonen
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  706. # [14:49] <dsr> Anne: widget could send an arbitrary token for origin
  707. # [14:49] <dom> (so maybe there needs to be a work item on Widgets Origin?)
  708. # [14:49] * dsr notes tlr has some ideas on this
  709. # [14:50] * dsr I think basing origin on signature of widget
  710. # [14:51] <dsr> Henri: broken browsers can fake orgin as can broken widgets, the attack you are trying to prevent is a rogue widget running on a trusted platform accessing private data
  711. # [14:53] <dsr> Henri: user would be recognized by normal login process. The widget would be identified by a hash of the widget so that the server has reasonable believe that the widget hasn't been tampered with, assuming a trusted widget runtime.
  712. # [14:53] <dsr> s/believe/belief/
  713. # [14:54] <dsr> Henri: the hash is computed in widget package file.
  714. # [14:54] * Barstow thinks darobin (Editor of Widget URI scheme spec) should jump in here ...
  715. # [14:54] <dsr> Server needs to remember the hash for the widgets they issued/trust
  716. # [14:55] * dom notes darobin is in eGov IG
  717. # [14:55] <dsr> The hash is a proxy for the identify of the widget
  718. # [14:56] * Joins: lgombos (Laszlo@192.100.104.17)
  719. # [14:56] <dsr> Anne: widgets are siloed from the browser
  720. # [14:57] <dsr> Brian: there is not guarantee that the browser couldn't execute the widget
  721. # [14:57] <dsr> Anne: it would still be sandboxed
  722. # [14:58] <dsr> s/not/no/
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  725. # [15:00] <dsr> Henri summarises the trust model whereby server uses checksum over widget's code as a check on its is identity.
  726. # [15:00] * Quits: Kai (chatzilla@84.14.50.82) (Ping timeout)
  727. # [15:01] <dsr> s/is/code as its/
  728. # [15:01] <dsr> Topic: Web Events
  729. # [15:02] <dsr> Art: last week W3C Director approved new WG on events. Doug will review its scope for us now.
  730. # [15:02] <Barstow> Web Events home: http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/
  731. # [15:03] <Barstow> Web Events: Charter
  732. # [15:03] <dsr> Two main aims: touch interfaces (including pen tablets, white boards etc) we call these low level or physical events
  733. # [15:03] <Barstow> ... http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/charter/
  734. # [15:03] * Joins: sgondo (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  735. # [15:04] <dsr> Other events are intentional e.g. "undo" and at a higher level than say "click".
  736. # [15:04] <dsr> Doug calls these user level events.
  737. # [15:04] <dsr> We won't be covering gestures which vary between devices.
  738. # [15:05] <dsr> We will provide a non-normative document describing gestures for informative purposes.
  739. # [15:06] * Joins: Kai (chatzilla@84.14.50.82)
  740. # [15:06] <dsr> Doug invites interested people to join the new WG
  741. # [15:06] <dsr> See http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/
  742. # [15:07] * Joins: aroben (aroben@71.58.77.15)
  743. # [15:07] <dsr> Art: we want to develop a shared terminology and a set of use cases.
  744. # [15:08] <dsr> The subsequent requirements analysis will help us to filter aspects that are in scope from those that are out of scope.
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  747. # [15:09] <chaals> q+
  748. # [15:09] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
  749. # [15:09] <dsr> Doug: hopes to come up with something that is universally acceptable.
  750. # [15:10] <dsr> Chaals: we are already signed up to the new WG and believe that higher level events are really important
  751. # [15:11] <dsr> This will simplify web app development in the long run
  752. # [15:11] <dsr> Doug: also good for implentors
  753. # [15:11] * chaals notes that this idea has been around for over a decade, and is likely to be a non-trivial exercise...
  754. # [15:12] <dsr> Sam: can't talk about touch, but there has been some work on higher level events (e.g. relating to ARIA)
  755. # [15:13] * Joins: Kai_ (chatzilla@84.14.50.82)
  756. # [15:13] <dsr> There are challenges to do with privacy, e.g. disclosing that you are using a screen reader.
  757. # [15:14] * Quits: Kai (chatzilla@84.14.50.82) (Ping timeout)
  758. # [15:14] * Kai_ is now known as Kai
  759. # [15:14] <dsr> Doug: we are open to suggestions
  760. # [15:15] <dsr> Olka: there is some commonality in higher level events across platforms (conceptually)
  761. # [15:16] <dsr> Doug: if we can find a sweet spot for a useful set of gestures that are universal and vendors are agreeable we can move forward.
  762. # [15:18] <dsr> Doug: we are not going to specify the specific user actions involved in gestures e.g. pinch.
  763. # [15:19] <dsr> Brian: if there is a common set of events regardless of how they are triggered, then that is still in scope, right?
  764. # [15:19] * darobin bah, sorry, didn't see prods, thought widgets was tomorrow!
  765. # [15:19] <dsr> Chaals summarises...
  766. # [15:20] <dsr> cites "back" action as example
  767. # [15:20] <Barstow> s/Olka:/Ilkka:/
  768. # [15:22] <dsr> Allowing app developers to bind their code to these higher level UI events makes their code easier to develop and more robust.
  769. # [15:23] <dsr> Soref: other examples include pan and zoom.
  770. # [15:23] <timeless_mbp> s/Soref/timeless/
  771. # [15:23] * timeless_mbp is now known as timeless
  772. # [15:23] <dsr> Chaals: this topic has been around for a decade e.g. hover, click and activate
  773. # [15:24] <dsr> we should leave this to the new Web Events WG!
  774. # [15:25] <dsr> Topic: CORS and UMP
  775. # [15:26] <dsr> Is anyone going to implement UMP? Answer no.
  776. # [15:26] <dsr> Art: who is going to push CORS into Last Call?
  777. # [15:26] * Peter is now known as beverloo
  778. # [15:26] <dsr> Any major issues to resolve for that to happen?
  779. # [15:26] <dom> http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/products/7 has one raised issue about confused deputy
  780. # [15:27] <dsr> Doug: UMP has been actively edited, but just not implemented.
  781. # [15:27] <dsr> Art: easiest way to kill UMP is to move CORS forward,
  782. # [15:28] <dsr> Dom: dependencies don't effect moving spec to Last Call.
  783. # [15:29] <dsr> Anne: some issues to resolve (e.g. 3 person handshake)
  784. # [15:29] <Barstow> ACTION: barstow work with Anne on a plan to move CORS to LCWD
  785. # [15:29] * RRSAgent records action 16
  786. # [15:29] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  787. # [15:29] <trackbot> Created ACTION-607 - Work with Anne on a plan to move CORS to LCWD [on Arthur Barstow - due 2010-11-08].
  788. # [15:30] * Quits: timeless (timeless@84.14.50.82) (Client exited)
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  790. # [15:31] <dsr> we break for caffeine
  791. # [15:31] <anne> s/3 person/3 party/
  792. # [15:31] <dsr> rrsagent, make minutes
  793. # [15:31] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-minutes.html dsr
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  824. # [16:12] * Barstow worky?
  825. # [16:13] <dsr> we resume after the coffee break
  826. # [16:14] <dsr> The data cache spec was defined to address a number of features such as providing access to email attachments when you are offline
  827. # [16:14] <dom> -> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/DataCache/ DataCache API Editors draft
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  830. # [16:15] <dsr> (says Eric)
  831. # [16:15] <dsr> The TAG members introduce themselves.
  832. # [16:16] * Joins: freedom (freedom@84.14.50.82)
  833. # [16:16] <dsr> The TAG expressed an interest in hearing about Web Storage, a spec edited by Hixie, who unfortunately isn't present today.
  834. # [16:18] * Joins: Yves (ylafon@128.30.52.169)
  835. # [16:18] <dom> -> http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/ Architecture of the World Wide Web, Volume One (15 Dec 2004)
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  839. # [16:18] <dsr> Noah explains that TAG members are mainly hear to listen, and describes the context.
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  841. # [16:19] <dsr> Maciej: we do have people hear with some expertise in this topic who could offer their comments.
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  843. # [16:20] <dsr> Local storage mechanisms can boost performance of online web apps, and enable them to work when a connection drops out.
  844. # [16:21] <dsr> This comes with privacy implications and many of you will have heard of evercookie which works very hard to preserve cookies against deletion.
  845. # [16:22] <dsr> HTTP cookies are just one of many ways for sites to track users, and browsers doesn't have full control over all of them.
  846. # [16:22] <dsr> Browsers are evolving to support users wishing to clear all information relating to a given site.
  847. # [16:23] <dsr> This should help with privacy.
  848. # [16:24] <dsr> There are certain ways to track users without any local storage, e.g. finger prints based upon the browser's configuration (e.g. what fonts are locally installed).
  849. # [16:25] <timeless> [ http://www.unc.edu/courses/jomc050/idog.jpg ]
  850. # [16:25] <dsr> Noah: when you use the web in general, what assurances can we offer?
  851. # [16:27] <dom> (to me, this seems to point to the fact that browsers should behave separately when you're logged in and when you're not)
  852. # [16:27] <dsr> Maciej: using the browser in a safe mode and accessing sites through torr (anonymising proxy) is about as good as is possible.
  853. # [16:27] * Joins: oedipus (oedipus@70.21.184.131)
  854. # [16:27] <dsr> however, this will provide a reduced user experience ...
  855. # [16:28] <dsr> And even then there may be ways to perform linkability analyses.
  856. # [16:28] <timeless> [Exploring the Use of Discrete Gestures for Authentication http://eprints.comp.lancs.ac.uk/2204/]
  857. # [16:28] <dom> ["on the internet, nobody knows you're a dog" — but nowadays, on the internet, everybody knows your dog's name]
  858. # [16:29] <dsr> Dan: do local URIs offer any help?
  859. # [16:29] <timeless> [ And here's a "Reality" Check http://www.unc.edu/courses/jomc050/sum97/dog2.gif — from http://www.unc.edu/depts/jomc/academics/dri/idog.html ]
  860. # [16:29] <chaals> q+
  861. # [16:29] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
  862. # [16:29] <dsr> [ we agree to discuss storage not privacy to avoid going off into the weeds ]
  863. # [16:29] * timeless dsr++
  864. # [16:30] * chaals doesn't make any coments about Anne's garden...
  865. # [16:31] <timeless> ack chaals
  866. # [16:31] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  867. # [16:31] <dsr> Maciej: HTML5 has some new APIs e.g. for back function that can be helpful.
  868. # [16:31] * Parts: oedipus (oedipus@70.21.184.131)
  869. # [16:31] <dom> -> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/history.html#dom-history-pushstate HTML5 pushState() method to help manage URI-based views
  870. # [16:32] <noah> q+ masinter
  871. # [16:32] * Zakim sees masinter on the speaker queue
  872. # [16:32] <dsr> Chaals: we may want to ask what's different about URIs in the context of web widgets.
  873. # [16:32] <anne> q+
  874. # [16:32] * Zakim sees masinter, anne on the speaker queue
  875. # [16:32] <dsr> Right now widgets don't have a URI of their own, so that they don't have a URI to hang their data off.
  876. # [16:33] <dsr> We may want a way to distinguish between a local copy and the version on the server, but that is a lesser issue.
  877. # [16:33] * Joins: freedom (freedom@84.14.50.82)
  878. # [16:34] <dsr> Ashok: widgets don't have URIs, right, so how are they identified?
  879. # [16:34] <noah> q?
  880. # [16:34] * Zakim sees masinter, anne on the speaker queue
  881. # [16:35] <dsr> Chaals: the current widget spec doesn't provide for exposing a URI.
  882. # [16:35] <timeless> ack masinter
  883. # [16:35] * Zakim sees anne on the speaker queue
  884. # [16:35] <dsr> Larry: URI is not just a resource identifier, it is also a means for communicating, e.g. sharing a bookmark with someone
  885. # [16:36] <dsr> You don't want to encapsulate all of the application state in the URI, but rather to provide a means for reconstituring the important state, e.g. the same route on a map, even in the map is in a different language.
  886. # [16:37] <timeless> (of note, the sharable bits that Google Maps exposes via "share" encode the Language, which generally annoys me)
  887. # [16:37] <chaals> q+
  888. # [16:37] * Zakim sees anne, chaals on the speaker queue
  889. # [16:37] <timeless> ack anne
  890. # [16:37] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
  891. # [16:38] <dsr> Anne: as Maciej mentioned HTML5 introduces a means for an application to push the current state and to encapsulate this in a URL for sharing with others, e.g. via copy and paste
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  893. # [16:38] <dsr> This avoids the need for the fragment identifier for the state
  894. # [16:38] <timeless> s/for/to use/
  895. # [16:39] <dsr> The application may store state locally or in the server.
  896. # [16:39] <timeless> ack chaals
  897. # [16:39] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  898. # [16:41] <dsr> Larry: it would be nice if the way you name things is independent of whether they are in local storage or on the server
  899. # [16:41] <dsr> If apps have too much state then you should try to put it into a URI.
  900. # [16:42] <timeless> s/should/should not/
  901. # [16:42] <dsr> Chaals and Larry agree on the need for providing advice to developers on good practices.
  902. # [16:43] * dsr thx timeless for correcting my error prone typing buffer
  903. # [16:43] * timeless :)
  904. # [16:44] <dsr> Doug: we can't know everything that people want to do, and can only do our best
  905. # [16:44] <noah> q?
  906. # [16:44] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  907. # [16:44] <noah> q+
  908. # [16:44] * Zakim sees noah on the speaker queue
  909. # [16:45] <dsr> Anne: trying to write guidelines for developers is tough
  910. # [16:45] <timeless> ack noah
  911. # [16:45] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  912. # [16:45] <dsr> Noah: generally agree with what has been said
  913. # [16:46] <dsr> I am not ready to say you need a URI for every item in a SQL store, but it is worth asking the question to understand the issues.
  914. # [16:47] <dsr> The TAG's role is to point out that there is an issue somewhere in here when it comes to storage.
  915. # [16:47] <chaals> q+
  916. # [16:47] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
  917. # [16:47] <dom> (I'm not sure client-side storage is significantly different from server-side storage; many server-side applications don't use well URIs to expose state either)
  918. # [16:47] <dsr> If people end up putting a lot of data in local storage that isn't addressable then this is a problem.
  919. # [16:48] <Kai> (except availability might be an issue)
  920. # [16:48] <dsr> i.e. pulling things out of web space...
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  922. # [16:49] <dsr> Chaals draws analogy with pulling alligators out of the swap before the architects build the city...
  923. # [16:49] * DKA wonders if the alligators have URIs?
  924. # [16:50] <dsr> Ashok: why don't you guys let the browser address things in databases?
  925. # [16:50] <dsr> We do have SQlite. Ashok responds, I mean a real database@! :)
  926. # [16:51] <dsr> Ashok: define a way to provide a SQL interface to requesting data, and returning it in whatever format makes sense
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  928. # [16:52] <dsr> Dan asks about the various forms of local storage under consideration.
  929. # [16:52] <dsr> Chaals: for various reasons it is unlikely that the SQL interface will make it to REC
  930. # [16:53] <dsr> All of the major browser vendors have indicated there support for IndexDB
  931. # [16:53] <dsr> s/there/their/
  932. # [16:54] <chaals> a/All of the //
  933. # [16:55] <dsr> Sam: file storage API is yet another mechanism under consideration. This is sandboxed from the devices full file system.
  934. # [16:55] <anne> http://dev.w3.org/2009/dap/file-system/
  935. # [16:55] <anne> http://dev.w3.org/2009/dap/file-system/file-dir-sys.html is it specifically
  936. # [16:55] <anne> (for some confusing reason in the DAP directory)
  937. # [16:55] <anne> (well, historical)
  938. # [16:55] <dom> (because DAP rocks)
  939. # [16:56] <timeless> q?
  940. # [16:56] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
  941. # [16:56] <chaals> q-
  942. # [16:56] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  943. # [16:56] <dsr> Larry: I have an update of the file: scheme for URIs and would love to see that involved.
  944. # [16:57] <dsr> This hides OS dependent path syntax issues.
  945. # [16:58] <dsr> Art: any more questions on both sides?
  946. # [16:59] <dsr> Dan: sounds to me that the TAG could work on some kind of developer guidelines document if that is out of scope for Web Apps WG
  947. # [16:59] <dsr> Chaals: that is out of scope for us, so yes that would be something for you to think about
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  950. # [17:00] <dsr> Larry: to clarify I am not editing the file: URI scheme spec and would appreciate someone else taking it on.
  951. # [17:02] <dsr> [ the TAG representatives leave the room ]
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  954. # [17:04] <dsr> rrsagent, make minutes
  955. # [17:04] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-minutes.html dsr
  956. # [17:05] * dsr notes BBC radio program just a minute where participants are asked to talk about a topic for one minute with no deviation, no repetition and no hessitation
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  961. # [17:11] * adrianba proposes a spec review of Beer 1.0.
  962. # [17:12] <dom> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  963. # [17:12] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-minutes.html dom
  964. # [17:12] <dom> RRSAgent, make log public
  965. # [17:12] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, dom
  966. # [17:12] <chaals> rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight
  967. # [17:12] <RRSAgent> ok, chaals; I will not start a new log at midnight
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  987. # [17:29] * timeless notes that we are resessioning
  988. # [17:29] <chaals> scribe: chaals
  989. # [17:30] <chaals> Topic: i18n
  990. # [17:30] * chaals tough...
  991. # [17:30] <Barstow> ScribeNick: ArtB
  992. # [17:30] <Barstow> Topic: DOM 3 Events Input Locale
  993. # [17:30] * Joins: anne (annevk@84.14.50.82)
  994. # [17:30] <chaals> ScribeNick: chaals
  995. # [17:31] <chaals> Present+: Rishida, Aron
  996. # [17:31] <chaals> Aron: (I work for Google.)
  997. # [17:32] <timeless> s/Aron/Aharon/
  998. # [17:32] <chaals> ... when working on online editor we realised it would be good to know the keyboard locale being used, in th context of smart quotes (langauge specific, and common in word-processors)
  999. # [17:32] <timeless> s/th context/the context/
  1000. # [17:32] <chaals> i/Aharon/Richard: I work for W3C on i18n/
  1001. # [17:32] <timeless> s/langauge/language/
  1002. # [17:32] <anne> I think it reads Aharon
  1003. # [17:32] <chaals> s/Aron/Aharon/
  1004. # [17:32] * anne is late to the party
  1005. # [17:33] <anne> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2010OctDec/0044.html
  1006. # [17:33] <chaals> ... Other usecase is inline directional styling. If you are typing RTL you often need to quote an LTR language (usually english)
  1007. # [17:33] <timeless> s/english/English/
  1008. # [17:34] <chaals> ... Problem is if the insert starts with punctuation or numbers, etc., you get problems unless the indicators are explicit.
  1009. # [17:34] <chaals> s/indicators/directional indicators/
  1010. # [17:34] <chaals> ... Editors provide a user control to indicate paragraph direction, but not for indicating a span within a larger paragraph.
  1011. # [17:35] <chaals> ... Word is clever and detects the keyboard being used. If I am typing in hebrew and switch to english keyboard, it switches the direction.
  1012. # [17:35] <timeless> s/hebrew/Hebrew/
  1013. # [17:35] <timeless> s/english/English/
  1014. # [17:35] <chaals> ... Generalising this, using an IME, voice recognition, etc, you still want to know what language it is set up for.
  1015. # [17:35] <timeless> s/direction/direction for the block of text entered in that language/
  1016. # [17:35] * Barstow ref: Understanding Bidirectional (BIDI) Text in Unicode - http://www.iamcal.com/understanding-bidirectional-text/
  1017. # [17:35] <chaals> ... Many of these devices are langauge specific.
  1018. # [17:35] <timeless> s/langauge/language/
  1019. # [17:36] <chaals> ... The basic idea is to provide a keyboard-locale property as BCP47 language code for key and text events.
  1020. # [17:36] * Barstow ref: Creating HTML Pages in Arabic, Hebrew and Other Right-to-left Scripts - http://www.w3.org/International/tutorials/bidi-xhtml/
  1021. # [17:36] <chaals> ... Doesn't mean that what was typed is in that locale, but it gives a good-enough heuristic to give a significant improvement.
  1022. # [17:37] <chaals> ... Besides that, having a global object that has an input-locale property would be useful.
  1023. # [17:37] <chaals> ... And an event that would indicate that locale has changed.
  1024. # [17:37] <timeless> s/locale/the locale/
  1025. # [17:37] <chaals> ... (For other use cases than those identified).
  1026. # [17:38] * Quits: homata (homata@84.14.50.82) (Ping timeout)
  1027. # [17:38] <chaals> ... Complication: You could use multiple input devices each configured to a different language.
  1028. # [17:38] <chaals> ... Didn't deal with that, but worth thinking about.
  1029. # [17:38] <chaals> DougS: We talked about a number of mechanisms in DOM 3. Suggested that having it in the event might become heavy.
  1030. # [17:39] <chaals> ... You can point to a static variable...
  1031. # [17:39] * timeless asks Barstow for a mailinglist ref to this ?
  1032. # [17:39] <chaals> ... Another proposal was having the global property, and we rejected it for 2 reasons: Complication identified, and it is yet another way to profile/sniff users, and we want to avoid this
  1033. # [17:40] <chaals> ... I would feel happy typing stuff into a page - I have already given that some trust, so I am OK with it doing some more detection.
  1034. # [17:40] <timeless> q+
  1035. # [17:40] * Zakim sees timeless on the speaker queue
  1036. # [17:40] <chaals> ... I don't want a spam popup to get my language information though...
  1037. # [17:41] <chaals> ??: What if you synthesise an event through the DOM?
  1038. # [17:41] <chaals> Josh: Have to be doing input...
  1039. # [17:41] <chaals> DougS: Keyboard inputs and text
  1040. # [17:41] <timeless> q-
  1041. # [17:41] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1042. # [17:41] <chaals> Sam: Usually you have to fill in the properties yourself, or they don't show up.
  1043. # [17:41] <Barstow> s/??:/Geoffrey/
  1044. # [17:41] <anne> q+
  1045. # [17:42] * Zakim sees anne on the speaker queue
  1046. # [17:42] <chaals> ... If a popup captures key inputs (clickjacking...) then you still have an issue
  1047. # [17:42] * chaals expects popups...
  1048. # [17:42] <chaals> Anne: Valid concern. If you modify it you cannot modify init methods.
  1049. # [17:42] <chaals> Maciej: Init Methods --
  1050. # [17:42] <anne> nuke it
  1051. # [17:43] <chaals> Josh: Next events thing could deal with that.
  1052. # [17:43] <chaals> Geoffrey: If we don't change the init, then you don't have a privacy problem.
  1053. # [17:43] <chaals> Anne: Sounds complicated - you eed to have a locale dictionary. Would it be possible to get the right behaviour in the User Agent instead?
  1054. # [17:43] <timeless> q?
  1055. # [17:43] * Zakim sees anne on the speaker queue
  1056. # [17:44] <timeless> q-
  1057. # [17:44] * Zakim sees anne on the speaker queue
  1058. # [17:44] <chaals> ack a
  1059. # [17:44] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1060. # [17:44] <chaals> Aharon: I don't know all the use cases - I've given you the ones that came up immediately on a project.
  1061. # [17:44] <chaals> DougS: We got basically the same feedback from MS Live.
  1062. # [17:45] <chaals> Aharon: It's not direction specific, it is also relevant switching from russian to english keyboard. French speakers would use french quotes, but if they type english they want english quotes but they are likely to keep using a french keyboard.
  1063. # [17:45] <timeless> s/russian/Russian/
  1064. # [17:45] <timeless> s/english/English/
  1065. # [17:46] <timeless> s/english/English/
  1066. # [17:46] <chaals> DougS: Would fail there, but it is still sufficiently useful
  1067. # [17:46] <chaals> Aharon: Yes. Talking about heuristics, yes they are complex. But the people who want to support this are willing to deal with the complexity, but they don't have the underlying information to support doing so.
  1068. # [17:47] <chaals> ... having the APIs available in javascript would be very useful. But I don't think this is the right forum for that (there are Javascript APIs being proposed for i18n purposes).
  1069. # [17:47] <chaals> ... The capability is included in javascript packages out there (e.g. in Google closure you can get a good guess about whether a language code implies RTL or LTR)
  1070. # [17:47] <timeless> [ Google Closure http://code.google.com/closure/library/ ]
  1071. # [17:48] <chaals> Anne: This or HTML-WG could be the right forum for talking about APIs...
  1072. # [17:48] <chaals> DougS: But not this spec.
  1073. # [17:48] <chaals> Aharon: Think there is an effort to include native i18n functionality in javascript.
  1074. # [17:48] <timeless> s/javascript/ecmascript/
  1075. # [17:48] <chaals> Anne: Don't think it makes sense for that to cover this.
  1076. # [17:49] <chaals> Olli: I think we agree already.
  1077. # [17:49] * dsr wonders whether ability to set language of input field from javascript would allow browser to figure out how best to support that language given the user's keyboard, no?
  1078. # [17:49] <timeless> s/this/[i18n api in javascript core - as opposed to dom]/
  1079. # [17:49] * dsr but I may be missing something
  1080. # [17:49] <chaals> i/Olli/Aharon: Think it makes sense to have javascript allow us to determine natively/
  1081. # [17:50] <chaals> Anne: Still have concern about fingerprinting
  1082. # [17:50] <chaals> Geoffrey: Only works if people are typing
  1083. # [17:50] <chaals> [Yes, but people type all the time]
  1084. # [17:50] <chaals> CMN: A highly efficient web timing interface is likely to be more useful for improved fingerprinting.
  1085. # [17:52] <chaals> DS: Think the concerns are valid, but this is useful enough to override them. Should be a note in the spec explaining the issue
  1086. # [17:52] <chaals> Anne: Users are not going to read the spec, and this is relevant to users. But I am not opposed.
  1087. # [17:53] <chaals> MJS: Useful to note so people who want to make anti-fingerprinting see it.
  1088. # [17:53] <chaals> Olli: Web apps still need to handle the case where input-locale is not avialable.
  1089. # [17:53] * Parts: Yves (ylafon@128.30.52.169)
  1090. # [17:53] <timeless> s/avialable/available/
  1091. # [17:53] <chaals> Aharon: Yes. The spec already notes what to do when this happens.
  1092. # [17:53] * Barstow wants a link to Aharon's spec/proposal ...
  1093. # [17:53] * timeless too
  1094. # [17:53] * Quits: darobin (robin@84.14.50.82) (Ping timeout)
  1095. # [17:53] <chaals> DougS: Pasting means there is no input locale.
  1096. # [17:54] <chaals> Aharon: And think it will stay like that. This is specifically about things being input.
  1097. # [17:54] <chaals> Anne: Why put it on keyboard? Why not just on text - that seems sufficient and I don't see the value for keyup/down etc.
  1098. # [17:55] * Barstow wants Erics' vi FF extension too :-)
  1099. # [17:55] <chaals> EricU: Having it for keyup/down could be useful to write a really powerful editor. E.g. if you want to deal with ctrl-D you have to get to the level of key events.
  1100. # [17:56] <chaals> CMN: Think Anne is right...
  1101. # [17:56] <smaug_> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2010JulSep/0024.html
  1102. # [17:56] * Quits: myakura (myakura@84.14.50.82) (Ping timeout)
  1103. # [17:56] <chaals> ... don't need to handle text and key input if you can just handle key input.
  1104. # [17:57] <chaals> s/ if you can just handle key input/, text is enough because command keys are not locale-dependent in effect/
  1105. # [17:57] <chaals> Josh: But if you write a rich editor you just trap key events, rather than having to deal with text input at all.
  1106. # [17:58] <chaals> DougS: The plan is to add the proposal, and do it...
  1107. # [17:59] <chaals> Doug claims Adrian thought this was great and has been agitating for it for ages.
  1108. # [17:59] <timeless> this was http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/issues/119
  1109. # [17:59] <Barstow> RRSAgent, make minutes
  1110. # [17:59] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-minutes.html Barstow
  1111. # [18:00] <chaals> [Adjourned for the day]
  1112. # [18:00] * Quits: weinig (weinig@84.14.50.82) (Quit: weinig)
  1113. # [18:00] <Barstow> RRSAgent, make minutes
  1114. # [18:00] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-minutes.html Barstow
  1115. # [18:01] <chaals> Present+ DanA, LarryM, Ashok, Aharon, Rishida
  1116. # [18:02] * timeless http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-minutes.html#item03
  1117. # [18:02] <chaals> rrsagent, make minutes
  1118. # [18:02] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-minutes.html chaals
  1119. # [18:02] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.169) (Quit: shepazu)
  1120. # [18:02] * Quits: anne (annevk@84.14.50.82) (Quit: anne)
  1121. # [18:03] * Parts: iga (iga@84.14.50.82)
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  1128. # [18:06] <Barstow> Present+ Art_Barstow, Mike_Smith, Wonsuk_Lee, zhang_chengyan, wujing, junliao, Johnson_Wang, Adam_Boyet, Bo_Chen, Hiro_I, Yung_Yu_Chan,
  1129. # [18:06] <Barstow> RRSAgent, make minutes
  1130. # [18:06] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-minutes.html Barstow
  1131. # [18:07] * Quits: Kai (chatzilla@84.14.50.82) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.10/20100914125854])
  1132. # [18:07] <Barstow> Present+ Doug_Schepers, Josh_Soref, Eric_Uhrane
  1133. # [18:08] <Barstow> RRSAgent, make minutes
  1134. # [18:08] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-minutes.html Barstow
  1135. # [18:08] <Barstow> Present+ Laszlo_Gombos, Yael_Aharon
  1136. # [18:09] <Barstow> RRSAgent, make minutes
  1137. # [18:09] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-minutes.html Barstow
  1138. # [18:10] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@84.14.50.82) (Ping timeout)
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  1174. # Session Close: Tue Nov 02 00:00:00 2010

The end :)