/irc-logs / w3c / #webapps / 2010-11-02 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Nov 02 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #webapps
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  22. # [06:44] * Topic is 'WGs: WebApps, Web Notifications, Web Events'
  23. # [06:44] * Set by ArtB on Thu Oct 28 16:46:18
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  47. # [08:58] <Barstow> RRSAgent, bye
  48. # [08:58] <RRSAgent> I see 16 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-actions.rdf :
  49. # [08:59] <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow P&C spec: make it clear in the Abtract or Intro that P&C widgets != UI controls [1]
  50. # [08:59] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-irc#T09-27-35
  51. # [08:59] <RRSAgent> ACTION: caceres notify P&F WG when the P&C Conformance Checker is published [2]
  52. # [08:59] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-irc#T09-34-22
  53. # [08:59] <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow Web Workers: add link to bug database to the PubStatus page [3]
  54. # [08:59] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-irc#T10-21-33
  55. # [08:59] <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow Web Workers: work with Team to find resource(s) to review LC comments and plan for Candidate [4]
  56. # [08:59] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-irc#T10-27-01
  57. # [08:59] <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow PubStatus update Plans for Workers/Storage/Event-source that HTML5 Editor workload is the block and ask for volunteers [5]
  58. # [08:59] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-irc#T10-33-51
  59. # [08:59] <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow start a CfC to publish a FPWD of Web Messaging [6]
  60. # [08:59] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-irc#T10-35-28
  61. # [08:59] <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow ask Nikunj to report the status and plans of Programmable Cache to public-webapps [7]
  62. # [08:59] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-irc#T10-38-54
  63. # [08:59] <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow ask Oracle about their level of interest in Programmable Cache [8]
  64. # [08:59] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-irc#T10-40-04
  65. # [08:59] <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow ask public-webapps about creating Use Cases and requirements of Program App Caches versus HTML5 App Cache [9]
  66. # [08:59] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-irc#T10-49-18
  67. # [08:59] <RRSAgent> ACTION: Barstow to contact julian reschke and Mark Nottingham about Data Cache [10]
  68. # [08:59] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-irc#T10-52-17
  69. # [09:00] <RRSAgent> ACTION: Doug update Editor's Draft of Window spec to say the spec is no longer active [11]
  70. # [09:00] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-irc#T13-05-27
  71. # [09:00] <RRSAgent> ACTION: schepers update Editor's Draft of Window and REX specs to say the specs are no longer active [12]
  72. # [09:00] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-irc#T13-05-56
  73. # [09:00] <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow work with WebApps Team and Anne to find a way for W3C to host Opera's event-source tests [13]
  74. # [09:00] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-irc#T13-13-58
  75. # [09:00] <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow add Opera's test suite for EventSource to the PubStatus page (see mins from 1-Nov-2010 for the link) [14]
  76. # [09:00] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-irc#T13-15-00
  77. # [09:00] <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow start a CfC to publish Web SQL Database as a Working Group Note (and hence signal the spec is no longer on the REC track) [15]
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  79. # [09:00] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-irc#T13-26-07
  80. # [09:00] <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow work with Anne on a plan to move CORS to LCWD [16]
  81. # [09:00] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-webapps-irc#T14-26-35
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  84. # [09:01] * Barstow changes topic to 'WebApps F2F meeting; Agenda = http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/TPAC2010#Tuesday.2C_November_2 ; Bridge PIN = 2010'
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  88. # [09:04] <Barstow> ScribeNick: MikeSmith
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  92. # [09:04] <Barstow> Scribe: Mike_Smith
  93. # [09:04] <Barstow> RRSAgent, make log Public
  94. # [09:04] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, Barstow
  95. # [09:04] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@84.14.50.82)
  96. # [09:04] <Barstow> Meeting: WebApps F2F Meeting
  97. # [09:04] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.169)
  98. # [09:04] <Barstow> Date: 2 November 2010
  99. # [09:04] <Barstow> Chair: ArtB
  100. # [09:05] <Barstow> Present: ArtB, DougS, MikeSmith, Geoffrey, SamW, Maciej, DaveR, Olli, Adrian, EliotG, LaszloG, YaelA, AnssiK SureshC, Dom, Johnson
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  102. # [09:06] <MikeSmith> scribe: MikeSmith
  103. # [09:06] * Joins: komasshu (kensaku.ko@84.14.50.82)
  104. # [09:06] <Barstow> Present+ AnneVK, KlausB
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  107. # [09:10] <MikeSmith> Topic: DOM3 Events
  108. # [09:10] <shepazu> http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/products/2
  109. # [09:10] <shepazu> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/DOM-Level-3-Events/html/DOM3-Events.html
  110. # [09:10] <MikeSmith> shepazu: first is to our tracker page
  111. # [09:10] <MikeSmith> … does not have every issue
  112. # [09:10] * Joins: wonsuk (wslee@84.14.50.82)
  113. # [09:10] <MikeSmith> … because CLOSED issues don't show up
  114. # [09:11] <MikeSmith> … this reprepsents most of our LC technical comment
  115. # [09:11] * Joins: Hyeonsoo (hyeonsoo.l@84.14.50.82)
  116. # [09:11] <MikeSmith> … we figured we might have to go through LC gain
  117. # [09:11] <MikeSmith> … we will be adding the locale string
  118. # [09:11] * Joins: lgombos_w (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  119. # [09:11] <MikeSmith> … as we discussed yesterday
  120. # [09:11] <MikeSmith> … we will be making small changes
  121. # [09:11] * Joins: Bo_Chen (IceChat7@84.14.50.82)
  122. # [09:11] <MikeSmith> … improving wording
  123. # [09:11] <MikeSmith> … editorial explanations
  124. # [09:11] <MikeSmith> … going to LC again in Jan
  125. # [09:11] <MikeSmith> … this time "for reals"
  126. # [09:12] <MikeSmith> … pending any upheavals
  127. # [09:12] * Joins: junliao (IceChat7@84.14.50.82)
  128. # [09:12] <MikeSmith> … doesn't specifcy evvery possible thing
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  131. # [09:12] <MikeSmith> … we had a comment from Garrett Smith
  132. # [09:12] * Joins: Bo_Chen (IceChat7@84.14.50.82)
  133. # [09:12] <MikeSmith> … also from Ample SDK
  134. # [09:12] <MikeSmith> anne: Sergei Ilinsky
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  137. # [09:13] <MikeSmith> shepazu: wansts to modularize
  138. # [09:13] <MikeSmith> … and Anne wants to modularize more too
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  141. # [09:13] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  142. # [09:13] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
  143. # [09:13] * Joins: gavin (gavin@63.245.208.169)
  144. # [09:13] <MikeSmith> shepazu: introduces all the things that were in DOM2 events
  145. # [09:13] * Joins: cslye (cslye@84.14.50.82)
  146. # [09:14] <MikeSmith> … plues text input, keyboard input, one mutation event
  147. # [09:14] * Joins: junliao (IceChat7@84.14.50.82)
  148. # [09:14] <wonsuk> Present+ Wonsuk_Lee
  149. # [09:14] <MikeSmith> … though we have deprecated all the other mutation events
  150. # [09:14] * Quits: junliao (IceChat7@84.14.50.82) (Connection reset by peer)
  151. # [09:14] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make logs public
  152. # [09:14] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, MikeSmith
  153. # [09:14] <MikeSmith> shepazu: I think we are more or less fr
  154. # [09:14] <MikeSmith> … feature complete
  155. # [09:14] * Parts: cslye (cslye@84.14.50.82)
  156. # [09:15] <MikeSmith> anne: I'm the editor of DOM Core
  157. # [09:15] * Quits: kennyluck (kennyluck@128.30.52.28) (Quit: kennyluck)
  158. # [09:15] <MikeSmith> … I think it make sense for DOM Core to define mutation events
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  161. # [09:16] <MikeSmith> anne: simiilar to how we define Form events inside the Forms spec
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  163. # [09:16] <MikeSmith> shepazu: we removed some Form-related events and those were moved to the Forms spec
  164. # [09:16] * Joins: francois (Francois@mcclure.w3.org)
  165. # [09:16] <MikeSmith> mjs: How about making mutation events die in a fire?
  166. # [09:17] <MikeSmith> mjs: I agree if they have really tight coupling to DOM behavior, it makes sense to have them in the same place
  167. # [09:17] <MikeSmith> … but tehre are some cases that don't require tight coupling at all
  168. # [09:18] <MikeSmith> weinig: some of our chagnes are pending that they don7t break major editing sites
  169. # [09:18] <MikeSmith> … or goal is to turn it on and see what sites break
  170. # [09:18] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  171. # [09:18] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
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  174. # [09:19] <MikeSmith> anne:
  175. # [09:19] * Joins: Johnson (IceChat77@84.14.50.82)
  176. # [09:19] <MikeSmith> smaug_: I don't understand why were are moving mutation events
  177. # [09:19] <MikeSmith> … I thought everybody just wanted them removed
  178. # [09:20] <MikeSmith> mjs: I thikn the DOM events mechanism really has become part of the core
  179. # [09:20] <MikeSmith> smaug_: yeah, but some specs may refere DOM events, but don't need to use DOM core
  180. # [09:20] <MikeSmith> mjs: there is almost no way to use DOM events without also using DOM core
  181. # [09:21] <MikeSmith> anne: what is an example where it's that case that something relies on DOM events but not DOM core
  182. # [09:21] * Joins: kennyluck (kennyluck@128.30.52.28)
  183. # [09:21] <MikeSmith> smaug_: some specs just extend [by adding new events and so don't need to reference DOM core]
  184. # [09:22] <MikeSmith> shepazu: anne, please explain what you want to move, specifically
  185. # [09:22] <mjs> http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Events/#event-interfaces
  186. # [09:22] <MikeSmith> anne: there is a part call "Basic Event Interfaces"
  187. # [09:22] <MikeSmith> … it would make sense to split that part out
  188. # [09:22] <MikeSmith> shepazu: that is the core of DOM3 Events…
  189. # [09:23] <MikeSmith> anne: in addition to that, I think the mutation events should move too
  190. # [09:23] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  191. # [09:23] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
  192. # [09:23] <shepazu> q+
  193. # [09:23] <MikeSmith> mjs: smaug, I think your dependency argument doesn't work [because the dependencies are complex]
  194. # [09:23] <MikeSmith> q?
  195. # [09:24] <MikeSmith> anne: this is implementable in Java
  196. # [09:24] <mjs> what I said about dependencies is that DOM3 Events has a normative dependency on DOM 3 Core
  197. # [09:24] <mjs> so there's no such thing as depending on DOM Events without depending on DOM Core
  198. # [09:25] <MikeSmith> Art: anybody else have comments?
  199. # [09:25] <MikeSmith> adrianba: I don't have a strong opinion about where we go in the long term
  200. # [09:25] <MikeSmith> … there is plenty of time to talk about it
  201. # [09:26] <MikeSmith> … right now there is an Event spec
  202. # [09:26] <MikeSmith> … which is what we are targeting in IE9
  203. # [09:26] <MikeSmith> … it seems like the wrong time now to start cutting up the problem space in a different way
  204. # [09:26] <mjs> q+
  205. # [09:26] <MikeSmith> … let's move the spec forward as it is
  206. # [09:27] * mjs do we not have the queue bot?
  207. # [09:27] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.169)
  208. # [09:27] <mjs> q+
  209. # [09:27] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
  210. # [09:27] <MikeSmith> adrianba: we are chartered to work in a new async spec for [something like mutation events]
  211. # [09:28] <MikeSmith> adrianba: stabilizing what we how now and moving forward seems like the right thing
  212. # [09:28] <MikeSmith> mjs: my preference would be to move forward but plan [to move things to DOM Core later]
  213. # [09:28] * Joins: Vagner-br (chatzilla@84.14.50.82)
  214. # [09:28] <Barstow> Present+ RichardT
  215. # [09:28] <MikeSmith> smaug_: I agree
  216. # [09:29] <MikeSmith> … let's get DOM3 Events done now
  217. # [09:29] <MikeSmith> … DOM Core will take years
  218. # [09:29] <MikeSmith> adrianba: we have implemented some of the mutatation events
  219. # [09:29] <MikeSmith> … we all understand the problems with mutation events
  220. # [09:29] * Joins: Wuk (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  221. # [09:29] <MikeSmith> anne: I am afraid we are getting stuck with mutation events
  222. # [09:30] * Parts: Vagner-br (chatzilla@84.14.50.82)
  223. # [09:30] <MikeSmith> adrianba: we are kind of stuck with them anyway
  224. # [09:30] * Quits: Seung-Jae (sjae.lee@84.14.50.82) (Quit: Http://www.ZeroIRC.NET Zero IRC Ver 2.9G)
  225. # [09:30] <mjs> q-
  226. # [09:30] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  227. # [09:30] <MikeSmith> shepazu: if you are going to do part of it, it should all be in one spec
  228. # [09:30] * Joins: junliao (IceChat7@84.14.50.82)
  229. # [09:31] <MikeSmith> anne: what do you mean by all?
  230. # [09:31] <MikeSmith> anne: I don't think mouse events belongs together with it
  231. # [09:32] <MikeSmith> shepazu: I would agree that we should move DOM3 Events forward as it stands
  232. # [09:32] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  233. # [09:32] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
  234. # [09:32] <MikeSmith> anne: I don't think labeling them as deprecated helps us all that much
  235. # [09:32] <MikeSmith> mjs: if the number of implementations is increasing, then [clearly it's not helping]
  236. # [09:33] <MikeSmith> anne: making them async would be a big start
  237. # [09:33] * Joins: richt (richt@84.14.50.82)
  238. # [09:33] <MikeSmith> smaug_: we don't know that that will work
  239. # [09:33] <MikeSmith> smaug_: tehre are some other approaches that are not event-based
  240. # [09:33] * Joins: seungjae (seungjae@84.14.50.82)
  241. # [09:34] <MikeSmith> smaug_: it is possible to remove some features from the platform
  242. # [09:34] <MikeSmith> … it has been done
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  245. # [09:35] <MikeSmith> shepazu: deprecation is a warning to authors
  246. # [09:35] * Joins: Bo_Chen (IceChat7@84.14.50.82)
  247. # [09:35] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  248. # [09:35] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
  249. # [09:35] <Barstow> Present+ BryanS, KaiH
  250. # [09:36] <MikeSmith> shepazu: it's not helpful to remove them from the spec at this point
  251. # [09:36] <MikeSmith> weinig: if they were removed from DOM3 Events, would MSFT consider not adding them in IE9
  252. # [09:36] <MikeSmith> [adrian shakes his head]
  253. # [09:36] <MikeSmith> shepazu: they are only supporting some of them
  254. # [09:36] <MikeSmith> adrianba: we are supporting them for interoperability reasons
  255. # [09:37] <MikeSmith> shepazu: they are in the spec because implementors asked for them to be in the spec
  256. # [09:37] * Joins: bryan (blsaws@84.14.50.82)
  257. # [09:37] <bryan> Present+ Bryan_Sullivan
  258. # [09:37] <MikeSmith> art: I noticed big list of issues
  259. # [09:38] <MikeSmith> shepazu: a bunch of them are from David Flanagan
  260. # [09:38] <MikeSmith> [book author
  261. # [09:38] <MikeSmith> shepazu: Oli, Travis, Jacob Rossi, myself discussed them
  262. # [09:38] <MikeSmith> … we have agreed already to accept most of the comments
  263. # [09:38] <MikeSmith> … and have heard no objections from the list
  264. # [09:39] <MikeSmith> shepazu: even.timestamp is one that we have still be discussing
  265. # [09:39] * Quits: Peter` (peter@85.223.116.170) (Ping timeout)
  266. # [09:39] <MikeSmith> s/even.time/event.time/
  267. # [09:40] <MikeSmith> art: can you do all 50 0f these by the end of the year?
  268. # [09:40] <MikeSmith> shepazu: we can round-trip on these by end of January
  269. # [09:40] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  270. # [09:40] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
  271. # [09:40] <MikeSmith> shepazu: if nobody has more comments, let's move on
  272. # [09:41] <MikeSmith> art: we don't have our next topic scheduled until 11am
  273. # [09:41] * Joins: Peter` (peter@85.223.116.170)
  274. # [09:42] <MikeSmith> Topic: possible plans for console object spec/WG
  275. # [09:42] <MikeSmith> shepazu: a lot of people have said why don't specify the console object
  276. # [09:43] <MikeSmith> weinig: we just copied the console api into Webkit
  277. # [09:43] <MikeSmith> mjs: there are a few things around console that are Web-compatibility issues
  278. # [09:44] <MikeSmith> mjs: having to do with devs using console calls into their scripts even after they have done debugging
  279. # [09:44] <MikeSmith> weinig: there are a couple problems
  280. # [09:44] <MikeSmith> weinig: we don't think operations on the console should be visible to Web pages
  281. # [09:44] * Peter` is now known as beverloo
  282. # [09:44] <MikeSmith> … we made some mistakes around that
  283. # [09:45] * Barstow wonders: if we had a bunch of developers in the room, would they have consensus on "does the Web need a 'console' standard?"
  284. # [09:45] <MikeSmith> mjs: the fact that console.log exists and doesn't have potentially
  285. # [09:46] <MikeSmith> -> http://getfirebug.com/wiki/index.php/Console_API Console API
  286. # [09:47] <MikeSmith> adrianba: we having implemented the console in IE9
  287. # [09:47] <MikeSmith> s/IE9/IE8-IE9
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  289. # [09:49] <MikeSmith> adrianba: there is a session tomorrow to discuss a new community-driven spec-dev approah
  290. # [09:49] <MikeSmith> … this might be a good case to use as a pilot
  291. # [09:49] * Quits: junliao (IceChat7@84.14.50.82) (Connection reset by peer)
  292. # [09:49] <MikeSmith> … for that approach
  293. # [09:51] <MikeSmith> Topic: Audio XG
  294. # [09:51] <MikeSmith> shepazu: about 6 months ago, we got in contact with some devs who were working on an api from programatically writing and reading audio streams
  295. # [09:52] <MikeSmith> … and we started in Incubator Group
  296. # [09:52] <MikeSmith> … XG
  297. # [09:52] <Barstow> Audio XG Charter: http://www.w3.org/2010/04/audio/audio-incubator-charter.html
  298. # [09:52] <MikeSmith> shepazu: and right now, Mozilla has a related API they have have developed
  299. # [09:53] <MikeSmith> … and Googl Chrome team has a related API as well
  300. # [09:53] <MikeSmith> shepazu: and we have decided to start a new WG
  301. # [09:53] <Barstow> Audio XG's mail list archive: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-audio/2010Oct/
  302. # [09:54] <Barstow> Mike: Chrome team is working on this API
  303. # [09:54] <Barstow> ... think we want broader participation
  304. # [09:55] <MikeSmith> shepazu: we would probably start the WG by February or so
  305. # [09:58] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  306. # [09:58] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
  307. # [10:03] <MikeSmith> Barstow: we will be back at 11am with anne at the podium
  308. # [10:03] <MikeSmith> Barstow: XHR1 test suite, and XHR1 issues
  309. # [10:03] <Barstow> RRSAgent, make minutes
  310. # [10:03] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-webapps-minutes.html Barstow
  311. # [10:03] <MikeSmith> [we take a 1 hour break:
  312. # [10:04] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  313. # [10:04] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
  314. # [10:05] <anne> http://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/domparser
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  329. # [10:40] <ArtB> ACTION: barstow ask Doug for a pointer to Google's "Before Input Proposal"
  330. # [10:40] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  331. # [10:40] * RRSAgent records action 1
  332. # [10:40] <trackbot> Created ACTION-608 - Ask Doug for a pointer to Google's "Before Input Proposal" [on Arthur Barstow - due 2010-11-09].
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  345. # [10:49] <ArtB> issue-119?
  346. # [10:49] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-119
  347. # [10:49] <trackbot> ISSUE-119 -- Consider adding input/keyboard locale to text and keyboard events -- open
  348. # [10:49] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/issues/119
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  355. # [11:07] <Barstow> ScribeNick: timeless_mbp
  356. # [11:07] <timeless> ScribeNick: timeless
  357. # [11:08] <timeless> Topic: XHR Testing
  358. # [11:08] <timeless> Scribe+ timeless
  359. # [11:08] <timeless> ArtB: Anne will be talking about XHR Level 1 Test Suite
  360. # [11:08] <anne> http://tc.labs.opera.com/apis/XMLHttpRequest/ and http://tc.labs.opera.com/svn/apis/XMLHttpRequest/
  361. # [11:08] <timeless> … and Level 1 issues
  362. # [11:08] * Joins: sicking (chatzilla@84.14.50.82)
  363. # [11:08] * timeless doug enters
  364. # [11:09] <timeless> anne: XHR Level 1 went to CR
  365. # [11:09] <timeless> … which means it's awaiting implementations
  366. # [11:09] <timeless> … of course XHR has been implemented long ago already
  367. # [11:09] <timeless> … there is a test suite which has been announced on the list
  368. # [11:09] <timeless> … but there has been little response
  369. # [11:09] <timeless> … Since people are here now, I guess I can ask people directly
  370. # [11:10] <timeless> sicking: I haven't looked at the testsuite yet, but is it fully automated?
  371. # [11:10] * Barstow notes the CR for XHR L1 is http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/CR-XMLHttpRequest-20100803/
  372. # [11:10] <timeless> anne: you need a test harness, but it is automatic loaded a test says PASS/FAIL
  373. # [11:10] <timeless> sicking: i think one of our desires is that things be as automated as possible
  374. # [11:10] <timeless> anne: I agree
  375. # [11:10] <anne> http://tc.labs.opera.com/apis/XMLHttpRequest/abort-during-done.htm
  376. # [11:11] <timeless> … ? there is a testharness that it's written for which is used for other testsuites from this group
  377. # [11:11] <timeless> [ anne describes how individual tests are structured ]
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  380. # [11:11] <timeless> adrianba: how much has the test suite changed recently?
  381. # [11:12] <timeless> anne: the framework changed to make it the same as the HTML WG
  382. # [11:12] <timeless> … quite a few changed because a number weren't matching the spec anymore
  383. # [11:12] <timeless> … the old testsuite was quite outdated
  384. # [11:12] <timeless> … some tests have been removed
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  388. # [11:12] <timeless> … the number of tests has gone down. because some test assertions were combined into single test
  389. # [11:13] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@213.236.208.22)
  390. # [11:13] <timeless> dom: did you follow any specific method to ensure every feature has been tested?
  391. # [11:13] <timeless> anne: um, no
  392. # [11:13] * Quits: sgondo_ (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  393. # [11:13] <timeless> … i tried reading carefully to ensure everything is covered
  394. # [11:13] <timeless> artb: do you think anything is missing?
  395. # [11:13] <timeless> anne: there's an open item in the issue database about credentials in urls
  396. # [11:14] <timeless> … the tests around that and authentication are not done yet
  397. # [11:14] <dom> (should known bugs in the test suite be documented somewhere?)
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  403. # [11:17] <timeless_mbp> bryan: did you want to test posts?
  404. # [11:17] <timeless_mbp> … for redirects (?)
  405. # [11:17] <timeless_mbp> anne: i didn't want to because HTTP Biz is still undecided on some of this
  406. # [11:17] <timeless_mbp> … 301/302/307 ...
  407. # [11:18] <timeless_mbp> sicking: another thing is that Mozilla + Opera include dialogs on 307
  408. # [11:18] <timeless_mbp> … it's sort of a requirement in the HTTP spec
  409. # [11:18] <timeless_mbp> … but they don't have it for direct address
  410. # [11:18] * Joins: Kai (chatzilla@84.14.50.82)
  411. # [11:18] <timeless_mbp> … they're ratholes, so not tested yet, once they're resolved they'll be tested
  412. # [11:19] * Joins: henri (henri@84.14.50.82)
  413. # [11:19] <timeless_mbp> anne: the only accessible methods are GET and POST
  414. # [11:19] <timeless_mbp> sam: didn't hixie add DELETE?
  415. # [11:19] <timeless_mbp> anne: we got him to remove it
  416. # [11:19] <timeless_mbp> anne: Trailers aren't tested yet, because i didn't know about them or how to test them
  417. # [11:19] <Barstow> Present+ Jonas, Pablo, Jeremy, Andrei
  418. # [11:20] <timeless_mbp> sicking: so do we have to test them?
  419. # [11:20] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.169)
  420. # [11:20] <timeless_mbp> anne: i might be able to test things w/ nph-
  421. # [11:20] <timeless_mbp> … but i'm not sure what to expect
  422. # [11:20] <timeless_mbp> sicking: trailers are after the response body
  423. # [11:21] <timeless_mbp> anne: so i guess the text that talks about the response body would have to talk about changing the state
  424. # [11:21] <timeless_mbp> … as far as i'm concerned, we don't need to support it
  425. # [11:21] <timeless_mbp> … for readyState changes
  426. # [11:21] <timeless_mbp> … but do you go to the DOM state
  427. # [11:21] <dom> s/DOM/done/
  428. # [11:21] * dom corrects any mis-mention of dom
  429. # [11:22] <timeless_mbp> sam: you said the php scripts are available in an svn server?
  430. # [11:22] <timeless_mbp> anne: yeah, it was the second link i posted
  431. # [11:22] <dom> http://tc.labs.opera.com/svn/apis/XMLHttpRequest/resources/
  432. # [11:22] * shepazu http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2270/why-are-they-called-trailers-if-theyre-shown-em-before-em-the-movie
  433. # [11:22] <timeless_mbp> artb: i assume the action then is for everyone to help this spec reach the exit criteria
  434. # [11:22] <timeless_mbp> … is to review the tests
  435. # [11:22] <timeless_mbp> anne: i assume there are some spec/test items which need fixing
  436. # [11:23] <timeless_mbp> … there's one other small test which might need fixing
  437. # [11:23] <timeless_mbp> … Byorn Herman
  438. # [11:23] <dom> s/Byorn/Björn/
  439. # [11:23] <timeless_mbp> … pointed out byte order swaps
  440. # [11:23] <timeless_mbp> s/swaps/mark character/
  441. # [11:23] <shepazu> s/Byorn Herman/Björn Höhrmann/
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  444. # [11:24] <timeless_mbp> artb: we had set expectations that we wouldn't exit CR before Feb 2011
  445. # [11:24] <timeless_mbp> sicking: which is two conforming implementations?
  446. # [11:24] <timeless_mbp> anne: I don't think that's likely to happen
  447. # [11:24] <timeless_mbp> … I would encourage people to review the editor's draft instead of this
  448. # [11:24] <timeless_mbp> … because there have been some changes to make this closer to XHR2
  449. # [11:25] <timeless_mbp> … removing some throw conditions to enable CORS
  450. # [11:25] <timeless_mbp> … those have been reflected in the testsuite already
  451. # [11:25] <timeless_mbp> … i try to keep the testsuite and the draft in sync
  452. # [11:25] <timeless_mbp> … that also means that if you implement to the testsuite, there shouldn't be any conflicts with XHR2
  453. # [11:25] <timeless_mbp> … if there are, that would be a bug
  454. # [11:26] <timeless_mbp> anne: i'm not sure if we want to discuss any of the issues now
  455. # [11:26] <timeless_mbp> artb: that's up to you, we have some of the people in the room
  456. # [11:26] <timeless_mbp> anne: one of them is the user info protection in the urls
  457. # [11:26] <timeless_mbp> … i think microsoft doesn't implement it
  458. # [11:26] <timeless_mbp> … and i think the other vendors do
  459. # [11:27] <timeless_mbp> … so that you can have http://user:pass@host/...
  460. # [11:27] <timeless_mbp> anne: I think the HTTP people want to remove it
  461. # [11:27] <timeless_mbp> sicking: I think we could try to remove it
  462. # [11:27] <timeless_mbp> sicking: does the spec say they must be supported?
  463. # [11:27] <timeless_mbp> anne: the http url spec does mention them
  464. # [11:27] <timeless_mbp> anne: does the url get sent to the server?
  465. # [11:28] <timeless_mbp> sicking: it might leak in the form of a referer header
  466. # [11:28] * timeless_mbp is now known as timeless
  467. # [11:28] <shepazu> scribenick: timeless
  468. # [11:29] <timeless> sicking: i'm sure the url testsuite ...
  469. # [11:29] <timeless> anne: they are mentioned in the spec
  470. # [11:29] <timeless> … the spec has user and password arguments
  471. # [11:29] <shepazu> q+ to describe policy on php in test suites
  472. # [11:29] * Zakim sees shepazu on the speaker queue
  473. # [11:29] <timeless> … which are used to set authorization headers (?)
  474. # [11:29] <timeless> … if we don't remove it ...
  475. # [11:30] <timeless> anne: there is an issue in the bug database, i think it's the only open issue at this point
  476. # [11:30] <timeless> q?
  477. # [11:30] * Zakim sees shepazu on the speaker queue
  478. # [11:30] <timeless> ack shepazu
  479. # [11:30] <Zakim> shepazu, you wanted to describe policy on php in test suites
  480. # [11:30] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  481. # [11:30] <timeless> shepazu: so dom followed up with the Systems Team on PHP tests
  482. # [11:30] <timeless> … we just got confirmation that we will be hosting the php tests
  483. # [11:30] <Barstow> ACTION: barstow XHR: add link to bugzilla in PubStatus
  484. # [11:30] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  485. # [11:30] * RRSAgent records action 2
  486. # [11:30] <trackbot> Created ACTION-609 - XHR: add link to bugzilla in PubStatus [on Arthur Barstow - due 2010-11-09].
  487. # [11:31] <timeless> … any tests that involves PHP will require review by the Systems Team
  488. # [11:31] <timeless> … they will be hosted on the load balancing servers
  489. # [11:31] <timeless> anne: which servers?
  490. # [11:31] <timeless> dom: they'll be hosted on test.w3.org
  491. # [11:31] <timeless> dom: it would be helpful if you moved to the mercurial server
  492. # [11:31] <timeless> anne: i think there's a version there
  493. # [11:31] <timeless> … but probably not up to date
  494. # [11:32] * Joins: seungjae (seungjae@84.14.50.82)
  495. # [11:32] <timeless> shepazu: the process will be such that you let us know when there's a specific version you want deployed
  496. # [11:32] <timeless> … it will not be deployed until the systems team reviews it
  497. # [11:32] <timeless> shepazu: i think this will come up a lot
  498. # [11:32] <timeless> anne: there's also the web sockets stuff
  499. # [11:33] <timeless> dom: i think that is more complicated and will require more work
  500. # [11:33] <timeless> … i think we can manage, it requires more work
  501. # [11:33] <timeless> shepazu: for cross domain work, i think we'll need another domain
  502. # [11:33] <timeless> adrianba: we already have "test" and "test2" which are cnames
  503. # [11:34] <timeless> dom: if you are working on any test suite that has server side things, please get in touch with the Systems Team early
  504. # [11:34] <timeless> anne: if you really want to test the really gritty networking stuff
  505. # [11:34] <timeless> … I think you will need HTTPS, certificates, DV, EV, OV,...
  506. # [11:34] <timeless> shepazu: those are good points
  507. # [11:34] * Joins: AnssiK (anssik@84.14.50.82)
  508. # [11:35] <timeless> … Philippe is starting a new testing project
  509. # [11:35] <timeless> … so setting up a little test honey pot might be possible
  510. # [11:35] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  511. # [11:35] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
  512. # [11:35] <timeless> dom: in general i think what's important is getting things to the REC track
  513. # [11:36] * Barstow notes we will also need this new flexible testing infrastructure for WARP testing
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  516. # [11:36] <shepazu> s/in general i think what's important is getting things to the REC track/in general i think what's important is getting things to the REC track, so get in touch with Systems Team earlier rather than later/
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  518. # [11:37] <timeless> ScribeNick: timeless
  519. # [11:37] <timeless> artb: anything else about XHR or its testsuite?
  520. # [11:37] <timeless> anne: no. apart from asking people to review/give comments
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  523. # [11:37] <timeless> bryan: is it easy to set up?
  524. # [11:37] <timeless> anne: yes, there's a readme
  525. # [11:38] <dom> (can we record an action to update the test suite on dvcs.w3.org?)
  526. # [11:38] <timeless> artb: based on the feedback you've got so far on the XHR1 candidate
  527. # [11:38] <chaals> rrsagent, make minutes
  528. # [11:38] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-webapps-minutes.html chaals
  529. # [11:38] <timeless> Action anne update the test suite on dvcs.w3.org
  530. # [11:38] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  531. # [11:38] <trackbot> Created ACTION-610 - Update the test suite on dvcs.w3.org [on Anne van Kesteren - due 2010-11-09].
  532. # [11:38] <timeless> anne: Before going back to last call
  533. # [11:38] <timeless> ... make sure that we have two implementations that pass all the tests
  534. # [11:39] <timeless> ... and that the specification has all the implementations passed that
  535. # [11:39] <timeless> ... so that when we go back to LC we can go to PR after that (skipping CR)
  536. # [11:40] <timeless> artb: the third bullet for this hour is a general discussion about testing
  537. # [11:40] <timeless> ... and we've already gone down that path quite a bit
  538. # [11:40] <timeless> anne: we could discuss responseArrayBuffer briefly
  539. # [11:40] <timeless> ... i'm not sure we could reach a conclusion now
  540. # [11:40] * Joins: Hixie (ianh@129.241.93.37)
  541. # [11:40] <timeless> Topic: XHR2 responseArrayBuffer
  542. # [11:40] <timeless> sicking: I do have something to say on this
  543. # [11:41] <timeless> sicking: So, the complicated issue is that...
  544. # [11:41] <timeless> ... there's multiple topics
  545. # [11:41] <timeless> ... the whole ongoing discussion right now about parsing...
  546. # [11:41] <timeless> ... all requests into all response properties
  547. # [11:41] <timeless> ... (Boris Z)
  548. # [11:41] <timeless> sicking: what i'd like to do is move away from the current situation
  549. # [11:42] <timeless> ... where we parse into multiple properties
  550. # [11:42] <timeless> ... which is the XHR1 behavior
  551. # [11:42] <timeless> ... I want to move to a way where you specify up front which thing you want
  552. # [11:42] <timeless> adrianba: I think that makes sense
  553. # [11:42] <timeless> ... so if you know it's coming as JSON or you want it as a Blob, you can specify that
  554. # [11:43] <timeless> sicking: obviously we need to retain compatibility with XHR1
  555. # [11:43] <timeless> ... and the stuff where you get a document
  556. # [11:43] <timeless> anne: this sounds kind of annoying
  557. # [11:43] <timeless> sicking: while it is nice to have things nice to have things parsed into everything
  558. # [11:43] <timeless> ... it's only nice if you don't have to consider all the resources used
  559. # [11:44] <timeless> ... what we're talking about is Document
  560. # [11:44] <timeless> anne: but you only need to create Document once it's requested
  561. # [11:44] <timeless> ... you don't have to do it all up front
  562. # [11:44] <timeless> sicking: in our implementation
  563. # [11:44] <timeless> ... we'll do charset-decoding differently depending on whether we're parsing into a document or not
  564. # [11:44] <timeless> ... so responseText changes depending on whether you have a document
  565. # [11:44] <timeless> ... and the spec requires this
  566. # [11:45] <timeless> sicking: everything else, JSON, Blobs, streams...
  567. # [11:45] <timeless> anne: streams?
  568. # [11:45] <timeless> sicking: we'll end up having to do it
  569. # [11:45] <timeless> adrianba: streams for media...
  570. # [11:46] <timeless> sicking: you can't set headers without this
  571. # [11:46] <timeless> adrianba: or you might want to process the data as it arrives
  572. # [11:46] <timeless> [anne was asking about using <video> ]
  573. # [11:47] <timeless> sam: we don't have to convince anne about streams
  574. # [11:47] <timeless> ... more things will be using new content formats
  575. # [11:47] <timeless> geoffrey: there will be more and more kinds with time
  576. # [11:47] <timeless> anne: this screws with content negotations
  577. # [11:47] <timeless> s/ons/on/
  578. # [11:48] <timeless> [ scribe laughs ]
  579. # [11:48] <timeless> sicking: one of the aspects of my proposal is that you can set .responseType after headers are received
  580. # [11:48] <timeless> ... but before any data has been processed
  581. # [11:48] <timeless> anne: how would it work for sync requests/
  582. # [11:49] <timeless> sicking: we'd fire events
  583. # [11:49] <timeless> anne: but they're blocked by the sync request
  584. # [11:49] <timeless> sicking: you can't fire an async request, but you can fire a sync event
  585. # [11:49] <timeless> ... that's trivial implementation-wise
  586. # [11:49] <timeless> ... you just run code on the main thread
  587. # [11:49] <timeless> anne: that sounds hairy
  588. # [11:49] <timeless> smaug_: we explicitly want to get rid of ready state change events
  589. # [11:50] <timeless> s/smaug_/smaug/
  590. # [11:50] <timeless> smaug: because that causes hanging in safari
  591. # [11:50] <timeless> adrianba: i think it's fine to not support sync requests for this new feature
  592. # [11:50] <timeless> ... because we want to push people toward async
  593. # [11:50] <timeless> anne: for workers sync requests are fine
  594. # [11:50] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  595. # [11:50] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
  596. # [11:51] <timeless> s/anne/jonas+sam/
  597. # [11:51] <timeless> anne: i'm saying you're opening a rathole
  598. # [11:52] * Quits: seungjae (seungjae@84.14.50.82) (Quit: InklChat :: http://barosl.com/inklchat/)
  599. # [11:52] <timeless> mjs: so what are we specifically talking about?
  600. # [11:52] <timeless> geoffrey: this was for when we receive headers
  601. # [11:52] <timeless> anne: i don't think we should really fire events during a sync request
  602. # [11:52] <adam> s/receive headers/receive content headers/
  603. # [11:52] <timeless> ... because conceptually that's confusing/seems really weird
  604. # [11:53] <timeless> mjs: there's generally a separate thread buffering the data from the network
  605. # [11:53] <timeless> sam: the buffering is already happening
  606. # [11:53] <timeless> ... anyone doing network handling on the main thread is probably doing something really wrong anyway
  607. # [11:53] <timeless> sicking: i'm suggesting this *only* for workers
  608. # [11:54] <timeless> anne: I guess I would have to reference Workers from XHR2
  609. # [11:54] <timeless> sam: we kind of think of sync as deprecated in the main context now
  610. # [11:54] <timeless> ... so adding features and having them exposed for the non workers case is kind of like whatever
  611. # [11:54] <timeless> mjs: even in workers, i think it makes sense to encourage people to have multiple concurrent requests
  612. # [11:55] <timeless> ... by not providing this feature for sync
  613. # [11:55] <timeless> sicking: i'm not sure that this has taken off
  614. # [11:56] <timeless> artb: time check
  615. # [11:56] <timeless> artb: we have test suites we've already covered
  616. # [11:56] <timeless> ... and you have ...
  617. # [11:56] <timeless> sicking: i posted my original proposal on content negotiation to the list
  618. # [11:56] <timeless> ... it's a long thread
  619. # [11:57] <timeless> sicking: i had one more issue on byte array
  620. # [11:57] <timeless> sicking: have you seen the proposal on the ecma list
  621. # [11:57] <timeless> ... about another binary format?
  622. # [11:57] <timeless> anne: i'm not on the list
  623. # [11:57] <timeless> ... i think it should align with webgl
  624. # [11:57] <MikeSmith> sicking, url?
  625. # [11:57] <timeless> sicking: it's a long discussion
  626. # [11:57] * Quits: mjs (mjs@84.14.50.82) (Quit: mjs)
  627. # [11:58] <timeless> sicking: i'll try to find the url
  628. # [11:58] * Joins: mjs (mjs@84.14.50.82)
  629. # [11:58] <timeless> anne: i don't mind removing endianness
  630. # [11:58] <timeless> ... but it would have to be aligned about webgl
  631. # [11:58] <timeless> sam: the reason for the endianness is that you want things in host byte order for webgl
  632. # [11:59] <timeless> sicking: not all details are worked out yet
  633. # [11:59] * Quits: mjs (mjs@84.14.50.82) (Quit: mjs)
  634. # [11:59] <timeless> ... the idea is to have it be fast
  635. # [11:59] <timeless> ... but without exposing platform endianness
  636. # [11:59] * Joins: Guest724 (Guest724@62.141.74.2)
  637. # [11:59] <timeless> ... the problem is that you're talking between two languages, JS and GLSL
  638. # [12:00] <timeless> ... david herman is the guy who made the proposal
  639. # [12:00] <anne> GLSL = OpenGL Shading Language
  640. # [12:00] <sicking> http://wiki.ecmascript.org/doku.php?id=strawman:binary_data
  641. # [12:00] <sicking> http://wiki.ecmascript.org/doku.php?id=strawman:binary_data_semantics
  642. # [12:01] <sicking> http://wiki.ecmascript.org/doku.php?id=strawman:binary_data_discussion
  643. # [12:01] <timeless> artb: before we go on to DOM Core, I wanted to set aside a few minutes for testing
  644. # [12:01] <Guest724> anne , t'es franaise ?!
  645. # [12:01] <timeless> adrianba: we submitted tests for the webapps and html WGs
  646. # [12:01] * timeless asks Guest724 not to ask here, this channel is logged
  647. # [12:02] <adrianba> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webapps/file/5814514eeba4/tests/DOMEvents
  648. # [12:02] <timeless> adrianba: i'd like to move away from a system where we have a different process per spec for submission
  649. # [12:02] <timeless> ... we have some tests which we have committed to the mercurial repository - i just pasted the link
  650. # [12:02] * Parts: Guest724 (Guest724@62.141.74.2)
  651. # [12:02] <timeless> ... when I was talking to doug, he was trying to develop tests alongside the spec
  652. # [12:03] <timeless> ... we/he found that if you develop tests as you develop the spec, it's easier to find spec issues
  653. # [12:03] * Joins: euhrhane (540e3252@128.30.52.43)
  654. # [12:03] <timeless> ... there's a question of where to put tests as things are developed
  655. # [12:03] <timeless> ... and keep aware of which things are agreed upon tests. which are under development. which aren't agreed
  656. # [12:04] <timeless> sicking: we should try to require tests to be automatically runnable
  657. # [12:04] <Barstow> ACTION: barstow work with Team and Chaals on formalizing test suite process for WebApps
  658. # [12:04] * RRSAgent records action 3
  659. # [12:04] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  660. # [12:04] <trackbot> Created ACTION-611 - Work with Team and Chaals on formalizing test suite process for WebApps [on Arthur Barstow - due 2010-11-09].
  661. # [12:04] <timeless> anne: ... whenever possible
  662. # [12:04] <timeless> adrianba: i think the work that anne did to refactor the XHR test suite to use the same framework as the HTML tests
  663. # [12:05] <timeless> ... he should receive credit for that, because it made things much easier to review
  664. # [12:05] <timeless> sicking: when mozilla started adding tests to a framework
  665. # [12:05] <timeless> ... it made things much better
  666. # [12:05] <timeless> ... So if we have a formalized framework, and we should pick one, and force everyone [in the webapps WG] to use that one
  667. # [12:05] <timeless> artb: for new tests...
  668. # [12:06] <timeless> shepazu: certainly most of the tests around browser stuff should use the same framework
  669. # [12:06] <timeless> ... there's probably some stuff in W3C outside of browser context where this doesn't make sense
  670. # [12:06] <timeless> ... the SVG group has also agreed to move to the same framework
  671. # [12:07] <timeless> ... with SVG2, things are not going to go into the spec without having tests added
  672. # [12:07] <Barstow> Present+ BoChen, DavidRogers
  673. # [12:07] <timeless> ... until we do that, we'll mark things as under review
  674. # [12:07] <Barstow> Present+ EricU
  675. # [12:07] <timeless> ... I guess i'm just offering a +1 for a common framework as much as possible
  676. # [12:07] <timeless> ... have we talked about testing with WebIDL?
  677. # [12:07] <timeless> ... because if you describe stuff in a spec with webidl, you're going to be able to extract that and do a certain amount of automated tests
  678. # [12:07] <timeless> ... or not?
  679. # [12:07] <Barstow> Present+ AdamB
  680. # [12:08] <timeless> sicking: i'm more of a fan of handwritten tests
  681. # [12:08] <Barstow> RRSAgent, make minutes
  682. # [12:08] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-webapps-minutes.html Barstow
  683. # [12:08] <timeless> ... i'll believe it when i see it
  684. # [12:08] * Quits: euhrhane (540e3252@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout))
  685. # [12:08] <timeless> dom: there was a perl tool that i mentioned on public script ...
  686. # [12:08] <timeless> ... that generated tests from idl
  687. # [12:08] <timeless> ... But I agree with jonas that it's better to start with manual tests
  688. # [12:09] <timeless> adrianba: the model that creating things is that you can use automatic creation to simplify basic generation of
  689. # [12:09] <timeless> sicking: at mozilla we're also looking into automatically testing things that aren't automatically testable
  690. # [12:10] <timeless> ... such as testing interacting with a file picker
  691. # [12:10] <timeless> ... things which require apis which aren't web accessible
  692. # [12:10] <timeless> AnssiK: about function testing... do you have things other than unit testing?
  693. # [12:10] <shepazu> s/automatic creation to simplify basic generation of/automatic creation to simplify basic generation of simpler tests to supplement hand-written tests/
  694. # [12:10] <timeless> sicking: what we do is that we expose a lot of stuff to javascript
  695. # [12:10] <dom> s/public script/public-script-coord/
  696. # [12:11] <timeless> ... to have javascript override the dialog
  697. # [12:11] <timeless> ... we can also fake real clicks on things
  698. # [12:11] <timeless> ... it's being rewritten because the way we did it is not good
  699. # [12:11] <dom> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-script-coord/2009OctDec/0067.html perl tool to generate test cases based on WebIDL
  700. # [12:11] <timeless> AnssiK: there's a thing called sellenium
  701. # [12:11] <timeless> [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selenium_(software) ]
  702. # [12:12] <timeless> ... which is cross browser
  703. # [12:12] <AnssiK> s/sellenium/Selenium/
  704. # [12:12] <timeless> sicking: we're using a somewhat different approach
  705. # [12:12] * Joins: mjs (mjs@84.14.50.82)
  706. # [12:12] <timeless> shepazu: when i tried to do test first / test in parallel
  707. # [12:12] <timeless> ... i unfortunately failed
  708. # [12:12] <timeless> ... i couldn't get the resources together in order to do that
  709. # [12:12] <adam> Selenium can be automated using something like Hudson https://hudson.dev.java.net/
  710. # [12:13] <timeless> ... do people find testing in parallel to develop tests at the same time as developing the spec
  711. # [12:13] <timeless> David: with WAC we made sure that there are Test Assertions as you write the spec
  712. # [12:13] <dom> -> http://www.w3.org/TR/test-methodology/ A Method for Writing Testable Conformance Requirements
  713. # [12:13] <timeless> ... the outcome of what you want can be written out as the spec is written
  714. # [12:14] <timeless> ... you have a test description file that links back to the spec
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  717. # [12:14] <timeless> shepazu: is there interest in imposing this on the WG?
  718. # [12:14] <AnssiK> s/function testing/functional testing/
  719. # [12:14] <timeless> artb: yes, I took an action to work this out
  720. # [12:15] * Joins: noah (noah_mende@93.158.29.124)
  721. # [12:15] <timeless> ... we'd put forward a proposal to the WG
  722. # [12:15] <timeless> ... no one objected
  723. # [12:15] <timeless> adrianba: i volunteered testing resources
  724. # [12:15] <timeless> david: we strongly support any work in testing
  725. # [12:15] <adrianba> s/i volunteered testing resources/i volunteer to help define the process proposal/
  726. # [12:16] <timeless> ... we've had complaints in WAC, the other stuff has been quite difficult for us to test (for lack of tests)
  727. # [12:16] <timeless> Topic: Web DOM Core
  728. # [12:16] * dom dontcallmecore
  729. # [12:16] <timeless> anne: DOM Level 3 Core was a REC a long time ago
  730. # [12:17] <timeless> ... there's various differences in what web browsers implemented and what the spec says
  731. # [12:17] <timeless> [ anne describes differences ]
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  733. # [12:18] * Joins: mjs (mjs@84.14.50.82)
  734. # [12:18] <Barstow> ArtB: Web DOM Core abstract: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#abstract
  735. # [12:18] * Quits: mjs (mjs@84.14.50.82) (Quit: mjs)
  736. # [12:18] <timeless> anne: there are a few things HTML5 currently defines, which I think should be moved back to DOM Core
  737. # [12:18] <timeless> ... like what createElement does
  738. # [12:19] <shepazu> [here's a short analysis of a case of WRONG_DOCUMENT_ERR: http://www.schepers.cc/svg/blendups/scriptbridge/scriptbridge-insertBug.html ]
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  742. # [12:20] <timeless> .... and defining what Document.charset/Document.defaultCharset/... are.
  743. # [12:21] <timeless> ... but leaving HTML to define when it sets them
  744. # [12:21] <timeless> ... there's a more ambitious goal of getting rid of AttrNodes
  745. # [12:23] * Quits: seungjae (seungjae@84.14.50.82) (Quit: seungjae)
  746. # [12:23] <timeless> [ sicking talks about DOM UserData]
  747. # [12:24] * Joins: mjs (mjs@84.14.50.82)
  748. # [12:24] <timeless> sicking: i'm surprised no one has got requests for them
  749. # [12:24] <timeless> sam: we have
  750. # [12:24] <timeless> ... but in the past we've said can't you use set property?
  751. # [12:24] <timeless> ... and that's been good enough for them
  752. # [12:24] <timeless> sicking: but you could get conflicts with future specs
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  755. # [12:26] <timeless> sicking: yeah i'm all for getting rid of AttrNodes
  756. # [12:26] <timeless> ... i was talking to travis from Microsoft about it
  757. # [12:26] * Joins: seungjae (seungjae@84.14.50.82)
  758. # [12:26] <timeless> ... we might need to add ownerElement on the Attr
  759. # [12:27] * Quits: myakura (myakura@84.14.50.82) (Ping timeout)
  760. # [12:27] <timeless> ... the main goal is to make them not be nodes
  761. # [12:27] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  762. # [12:27] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
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  764. # [12:28] <timeless> anne: this would move the namespaceURI away from Node
  765. # [12:28] <timeless> sicking: attribute nodes, i know we keep having security issues with
  766. # [12:29] <timeless> anne: the other things, it would be nice to get rid of, but it isn't terribly important
  767. # [12:30] <timeless> anne: namespaceURI is only relevant for Element and Attr
  768. # [12:30] <timeless> sicking: it's useful for simple traversal
  769. # [12:30] <timeless> anne: the main reason is to avoid casting in Java
  770. # [12:30] <timeless> sicking: forms does the same thing, so you can iterate the forms.elements array
  771. # [12:30] <timeless> ... so you can avoid checking the type before getting properties
  772. # [12:31] <timeless> anne: but what would you be doing?
  773. # [12:31] * Joins: seungjae (seungjae@84.14.50.82)
  774. # [12:31] <timeless> sicking: ...i don't know...
  775. # [12:31] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.169) (Quit: shepazu)
  776. # [12:31] <timeless> artb: so, this afternoon will be IndexDB, chaired by Anne
  777. # [12:31] <timeless> sicking: is anyone else planning to try to start removing these things?
  778. # [12:31] <timeless> anne: we don't want to lead
  779. # [12:32] <timeless> sam: webkit would be interested in trying in nightlies
  780. # [12:32] <timeless> anne: we have already removed DOM UserData by not implementing it
  781. # [12:32] <timeless> sam: I have done the same for years, by not implementing it
  782. # [12:32] <timeless> anne: we are not actively removing things, but we have tried to restrain ourselves from implementing things
  783. # [12:33] <timeless> ... we would really like the Attr thing
  784. # [12:33] <timeless> sam: Are there any NodeLists that return Nodes other than Elements?
  785. # [12:33] <timeless> anne: there were. but I tried to kill those
  786. # [12:33] <timeless> ... maybe there are no longer
  787. # [12:34] <timeless> Break for Lunch
  788. # [12:34] <Barstow> RRSAgent, make minutes
  789. # [12:34] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-webapps-minutes.html Barstow
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  836. # [13:41] <anne> arun, you there?
  837. # [13:41] <anne> arun, you want to dial in for Indexed DB?
  838. # [13:41] <dom> Zakim, code?
  839. # [13:41] <Zakim> sorry, dom, I don't know what conference this is
  840. # [13:41] <MikeSmith> arun: you got a Skype ID?
  841. # [13:41] <dom> Zakim, this is webapp
  842. # [13:41] <Zakim> dom, I see IA_WebApps(TPAC)4:00AM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be webapp".
  843. # [13:41] <arun> Hi there Mike
  844. # [13:41] <MikeSmith> hey man
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  847. # [13:42] <arun> MikeSmith: I'd like to dialin if possible.
  848. # [13:42] <dom> Zakim, this is webapps
  849. # [13:42] <Zakim> dom, I see IA_WebApps(TPAC)4:00AM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be webapps".
  850. # [13:42] * Barstow dom: bridget PIN is 2010
  851. # [13:42] <dom> Zakim, this is ia_webapps
  852. # [13:42] <Zakim> dom, I see IA_WebApps(TPAC)4:00AM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be ia_webapps".
  853. # [13:42] <arun> anne: I'd like to dial in if possible.
  854. # [13:42] <dom> Zakim, this will be ia_webapps
  855. # [13:42] <Zakim> ok, dom; I see IA_WebApps(TPAC)4:00AM scheduled to start 279 minutes ago
  856. # [13:42] * shepazu Zakim, call Rhone_3A
  857. # [13:42] * Zakim ok, shepazu; the call is being made
  858. # [13:42] <Zakim> IA_WebApps(TPAC)4:00AM has now started
  859. # [13:42] <Zakim> +Rhone_3A
  860. # [13:42] <Zakim> + +1.415.294.aaaa
  861. # [13:42] <Zakim> - +1.415.294.aaaa
  862. # [13:42] <Zakim> + +1.415.294.aaaa
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  865. # [13:43] <MikeSmith> scribe: MikeSmith
  866. # [13:43] <MikeSmith> Topic: IndexedDB
  867. # [13:43] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  868. # [13:43] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
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  872. # [13:44] <adam> Adam Boyet - Boeing
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  875. # [13:46] <MikeSmith> Paulo: there is a list of topics on the mailing list
  876. # [13:46] <anne> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2010OctDec/0413.html
  877. # [13:46] <adrianba> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2010OctDec/0413.html
  878. # [13:46] <MikeSmith> s/Paulo/Pablo/
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  882. # [13:46] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  883. # [13:46] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
  884. # [13:46] <bryan> Present+ Bryan_Sullivan
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  891. # [13:47] <MikeSmith> pablo: shall we do Keys?
  892. # [13:47] <MikeSmith> pablo: keys and tables… what we have today is simple keys
  893. # [13:47] <MikeSmith> … compound keys, custom orders
  894. # [13:48] <anne> Indexed DB: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/IndexedDB/raw-file/tip/Overview.html
  895. # [13:48] * Joins: hidetaka (hidetaka@84.14.50.82)
  896. # [13:48] <MikeSmith> …e.g., by date + by integer
  897. # [13:48] <MikeSmith> … key value would be an array
  898. # [13:48] <MikeSmith> sicking: not sure what syntax we should use
  899. # [13:48] * Joins: chaals (chaals@84.14.50.82)
  900. # [13:48] <anne> Topic: Keys
  901. # [13:48] <arun> Zakim, aaaa is arun
  902. # [13:48] <Zakim> +arun; got it
  903. # [13:49] <MikeSmith> sicking: one proposal was array of "key paths"
  904. # [13:50] <MikeSmith> jorlow: compound keys, being able to have arrays in your keys; another thing is compound indexes
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  906. # [13:50] <MikeSmith> pablo: can't we reduce that to the same problem?
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  908. # [13:51] <MikeSmith> jorlow: one or part of the structure of the DB, one is something you can do more ad hoc
  909. # [13:51] <Zakim> + +1.408.446.aabb
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  911. # [13:51] <MikeSmith> … key could be array one time, a string or something else the next
  912. # [13:52] <anne> who is +1.408.446.aabb? Nikunj?
  913. # [13:52] <Nikunj> Nikunj
  914. # [13:52] <anne> kk
  915. # [13:52] <arun> Zakim, aabb is Nikunj
  916. # [13:52] <Zakim> +Nikunj; got it
  917. # [13:52] <anne> zakim, +1.408.446.aabb is Nikunj
  918. # [13:52] <Zakim> sorry, anne, I do not recognize a party named '+1.408.446.aabb'
  919. # [13:52] <anne> screw you Zakim
  920. # [13:52] * arun :)
  921. # [13:52] <shepazu> Zakim, aabb is Nikunj
  922. # [13:52] <Zakim> sorry, shepazu, I do not recognize a party named 'aabb'
  923. # [13:53] * shepazu see above
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  925. # [13:53] * arun already outed Nikunj as aabb
  926. # [13:53] * shepazu thanks arun
  927. # [13:53] <MikeSmith> pablo: rule of strictly sorting by type, then sort by value is very sharp
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  929. # [13:54] <MikeSmith> jorlow: another question is, what do we want to do if you ahve a key path to "foo" and you insert an item that doesn't include a "foo"
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  932. # [13:55] <MikeSmith> [discussion about what to do if a key path resolves to an array]
  933. # [13:56] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  934. # [13:56] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
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  938. # [13:58] <MikeSmith> sicking: every place where we currently allow values we should also allows arrays
  939. # [14:01] <MikeSmith> [discussion about difficulty of implementing]
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  941. # [14:01] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  942. # [14:01] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
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  944. # [14:01] <MikeSmith> [sicking demonstrates with some code]
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  947. # [14:02] * Barstow wonders who is scribing ...
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  949. # [14:03] * arun MikeSmith is scribe
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  952. # [14:03] <MikeSmith> Option A is an array is just a single value
  953. # [14:04] <MikeSmith> s/Option A/pablo: Option A/
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  957. # [14:07] <MikeSmith> jorlow: example is that people can have multiple names, and you can construct an index such that multiple names map to the same person
  958. # [14:07] <MikeSmith> pablo: I am not sure about composite keys made of arrays
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  960. # [14:09] <MikeSmith> sicking: the 2nd case is multiple records pointing to the same object store
  961. # [14:09] <Nikunj> I thought that composite key means there are many parts to a key and that the parts are obtained from different paths
  962. # [14:10] <Nikunj> The discussion seems to be about a single path resolving to multiple values
  963. # [14:10] <MikeSmith> sicking, see Nikunj comment
  964. # [14:11] <MikeSmith> sicking: Nikunj, I agree with your interpretation
  965. # [14:11] <MikeSmith> jorlow: yeah, agreed
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  967. # [14:12] <MikeSmith> jorlow: what are we going to do in teh case where you are inserting a value that doesn't include something for a key path
  968. # [14:12] <MikeSmith> e.g., you are inserting a person and you don't include a first name, and the first name is the key
  969. # [14:14] <Nikunj> Multiple keys in an index pointing to a single object is not the same use case as compound key
  970. # [14:14] <MikeSmith> jorlow: pablo, you seem to be worried that any handling of arrays is going to be a lot of work
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  972. # [14:14] <Nikunj> The latter is about constructing a key serialization from multiple keypaths
  973. # [14:15] <Nikunj> The former changes the meaning of a key
  974. # [14:15] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  975. # [14:15] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
  976. # [14:16] <Nikunj> there is a difference between composite and compound keys
  977. # [14:16] <Nikunj> See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compound_key
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  982. # [14:19] <MikeSmith> sicking: in solution A we can have a mix of values and arrays.
  983. # [14:19] <MikeSmith> jorlow: should be allow keys to be indexes?
  984. # [14:20] <MikeSmith> jorlow: the only use case is, search on multiple keys
  985. # [14:22] <MikeSmith> jorlow: use case 1 is, my DB has people in it, with first name and last name
  986. # [14:22] <MikeSmith> … and I want to search for everybody who has both a certain first name and a certain last name
  987. # [14:23] <MikeSmith> jorlow: use case 2 is @@something @@
  988. # [14:24] <MikeSmith> jorlow: 3rd possibility is first-name entry, last-name entry, then an entry that has both that duplicates the first two
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  990. # [14:25] <jorlow> https://docs.google.com/document/edit?id=1IImAV3hzdqhaiaYfKzb-GWlCgKUDQX3wiXPkqjFFFWg&hl=en&authkey=CIHTwIIM
  991. # [14:25] <MikeSmith> jorlow: choice is, do you want users to have to duplicate their data? or do you want to have duplicated indexes
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  993. # [14:27] <MikeSmith> s/@@something @@/database contains people, find person with name "foo", be that first or last name/
  994. # [14:27] <MikeSmith> anne: so there's no AND ?
  995. # [14:28] <MikeSmith> jorlow: there's no query language
  996. # [14:29] <MikeSmith> Nikunj: I am not sure you need composite keys nor compound keys
  997. # [14:32] * adrianba notes that Indexed DB is the next session after the break from 3.30 to 4.30pm too (http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/TPAC2010#Tuesday.2C_November_2)
  998. # [14:32] <MikeSmith> jorlow: specifying a join language is a very big task
  999. # [14:32] <MikeSmith> … for that, you can take whatever we've done so far here and multiply it by 100
  1000. # [14:33] <MikeSmith> Nikunj: I am looking for a join _primitive_
  1001. # [14:34] <MikeSmith> Topic: internationalization
  1002. # [14:35] * darobin anne: told you, nodding and timecheck is all you need to do :)
  1003. # [14:35] <MikeSmith> pablo: scenario is, you expect sort order to be in accord with your language
  1004. # [14:35] * dom nodding first and foremost
  1005. # [14:35] <Nikunj> See http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-WebSimpleDB-20090929/#entity-join for a description of the join primitive
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  1007. # [14:37] <MikeSmith> sicking: question is, are we happy with having a language on a DB-wide basis? [as opposed to per object store]
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  1011. # [14:41] <anne> http://unicode.org/reports/tr10/
  1012. # [14:45] <MikeSmith> Topic: Dynamic transactons:
  1013. # [14:46] <MikeSmith> jorlow: my vote is, don't do it
  1014. # [14:52] <Nikunj> What is the current topic?
  1015. # [14:52] <anne> Transactions
  1016. # [14:53] <anne> ... all transactions have time-consistency
  1017. # [14:53] <anne> ... how implementations achieve that is up to the implementation
  1018. # [14:53] <anne> ... for writers you can only have one writer happening at the time
  1019. # [14:53] <anne> ... unless they are separate object stores/tables
  1020. # [14:54] <anne> ... you could figure out the overlap and be very smart... whatever (something like that)
  1021. # [14:54] <anne> ... should be some more non-normative text that explains this
  1022. # [14:55] <anne> JS: if you start two transactions; is there any guarantee with respect to order?
  1023. # [14:55] <anne> JO: I don't think so; get weird behavior with locking; would be shame as we get less concurrency
  1024. # [14:55] <anne> JS: what if there is overlap
  1025. # [14:56] <anne> JS: read, readrequest, write, writerequest
  1026. # [14:56] <anne> JO: no order guaranteed
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  1028. # [14:56] <anne> JS: sounds very racy
  1029. # [14:57] <anne> JO: if you cared do not start them at the same time
  1030. # [14:57] <anne> Pablo: I don't think it is strictly a race
  1031. # [14:57] <anne> JO: what is the use for starting them at the same time?
  1032. # [14:57] <anne> Pablo: there should not be starvation
  1033. # [14:57] <anne> JS: already says that
  1034. # [14:58] <anne> JS: in Firefox there's no raceness and you always know the order
  1035. # [14:58] <anne> JS: and no starvation either
  1036. # [14:58] <anne> JO: I can't think of any reason you start these and expect them to run in the same order
  1037. # [14:59] <anne> thank you darobin
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  1039. # [15:00] <anne> Pablo: workers also introduce these problems
  1040. # [15:01] * arun the agenda says there's *another* IndexedDB session
  1041. # [15:02] <anne> Topic: synchronous API
  1042. # [15:03] <anne> within one worker you can only have one transaction
  1043. # [15:03] <anne> that assumes requiring locks is in order
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  1045. # [15:04] <anne> make minutes
  1046. # [15:04] <anne> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  1047. # [15:04] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-webapps-minutes.html anne
  1048. # [15:04] <mjs> ScribeNick weinig
  1049. # [15:04] <weinig> js: you already have to lock tables
  1050. # [15:05] <weinig> js: we have to make the transaction function take a callback
  1051. # [15:06] <weinig> pablo: why can't we make the second transaction fail
  1052. # [15:06] <weinig> js: it would be very confusing for two independent libraries to interact together
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  1054. # [15:07] <weinig> pablo: that syntax seems very unwieldily
  1055. # [15:08] <weinig> jo: the function is just defining scope
  1056. # [15:08] <weinig> js: transactions within the function will throw
  1057. # [15:08] <weinig> jo: is anyone planning to implement sync
  1058. # [15:09] <weinig> jo: should we have a warning in the spec?
  1059. # [15:09] <weinig> jo: editors should try and keep sync and async in sync
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  1061. # [15:10] <weinig> pablo: is everyone planning on doing async in main context and sync and async in workers?
  1062. # [15:10] <weinig> everyone: yes
  1063. # [15:10] <Nikunj> can implementors provide an update on their implementation status/plans
  1064. # [15:10] <weinig> pablo: should transactions be allowed in transactions?
  1065. # [15:12] <weinig> jo: maybe we should have an open nested transaction
  1066. # [15:12] <weinig> pablo: everything you would need to do you can do off the transaction
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  1068. # [15:12] <weinig> pablo: lets ignore the last few lines
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  1071. # [15:13] <Zakim> -Nikunj
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  1073. # [15:14] * arun dials back in later
  1074. # [15:15] <Zakim> -arun
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  1090. # [15:45] <anne> scribe: anne
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  1095. # [15:47] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  1096. # [15:47] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
  1097. # [15:48] * Parts: Ileana (il9507@84.14.50.82)
  1098. # [15:48] * Joins: Ileana (il9507@84.14.50.82)
  1099. # [15:48] <anne> Topic: Bugzilla
  1100. # [15:48] <anne> RESOLVED: not automatically assign to Nikunj; MikeSmith to follow up
  1101. # [15:49] <anne> We have room number 4 all day tomorrow
  1102. # [15:49] <anne> times to be announced
  1103. # [15:49] <MikeSmith> if the problem is that Nikunj is not in the tracker DB I can add him now
  1104. # [15:50] <anne> Topic: quotas
  1105. # [15:50] <anne> Pablo: by default we are not going to let apps fill the disk; so what to do
  1106. # [15:50] <MikeSmith> trackbot, status?
  1107. # [15:50] * trackbot knows about the following 83 users: Olli, Anne, WonSuk, Josh, Lachlan, Tyler, Doug, Samuel, Richard, Eric, chengyan, Doug, Dzung, Robin, Ian, Adam, T.V., Arthur, Adele, Guido, Per-Erik, Nikunj, Johnson, Marc, Mark, Philip, Nick, Vladimir, Jeremy, Andrew, Jonas, Charles, Maciej, Alexey, Marcos, Stuart, Adrian, Adam, Magnus, Eliot, David, Tony, Bo, Mohammed, Wayne, Jing, Jonathan, Paddy, Thomas, TING, Songbai, Glenn, Steven, Jun, Arve, Hallvord, Aar
  1108. # [15:50] <anne> Pablo: lots of degrees of freedom
  1109. # [15:51] <anne> MikeSmith, it would be nice if it was assigned to a nobody instead since Nikunj is not the only editor
  1110. # [15:51] <MikeSmith> hai
  1111. # [15:51] <MikeSmith> I will change it now
  1112. # [15:51] <anne> Pablo: bytes are not necessarily meaningful as a unit
  1113. # [15:51] <Zakim> +arun
  1114. # [15:51] <anne> great
  1115. # [15:51] <Zakim> -arun
  1116. # [15:51] <Zakim> +arun
  1117. # [15:51] * Joins: yongil_jang (yongil@84.14.50.82)
  1118. # [15:52] <anne> Pablo: first attempt to use the database; anything the app needs to do?
  1119. # [15:53] * MikeSmith just changed bugzilla such that Nikunj is no longer the default assignee for IndexedDB bugs
  1120. # [15:53] <anne> SQL DB estimated size argument was very confusing
  1121. # [15:54] <anne> Dealing with size constraints:
  1122. # [15:54] <anne> 1) no API impact
  1123. # [15:54] <anne> Chrome has a hard limit (with a non-specced error)
  1124. # [15:57] <anne> conclusion seems to be that some kind of quota error is needed
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  1128. # [16:00] <anne> the spec does not say you create the index asynchronously
  1129. # [16:00] <anne> JO: i think it is implied
  1130. # [16:00] <anne> Pablo: it should be explicit
  1131. # [16:00] <anne> JO: i think it is in there, maybe should be more explained
  1132. # [16:00] <anne> JO: if it fails it fails the transaction
  1133. # [16:01] * Joins: mjs (mjs@84.14.50.82)
  1134. # [16:01] <anne> Does there need to be a way for asking for more space?
  1135. # [16:02] <anne> adrianba: in SilverLight we wanted to give the app more control
  1136. # [16:03] * Joins: pablo (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  1137. # [16:03] <anne> adrianba: if e.g. you download a huge file you do not want the UA to have to ask and ask again
  1138. # [16:03] <anne> adrianba: but instead allocate once
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  1141. # [16:04] <Zakim> -arun
  1142. # [16:05] <anne> JO: use cases are caching and some kind of permanent storage (i.e. offline written email)
  1143. # [16:05] <anne> Pablo: impossible for us to decide
  1144. # [16:05] <anne> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  1145. # [16:05] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-webapps-minutes.html anne
  1146. # [16:05] <anne> s/permanent/persistent/
  1147. # [16:06] <anne> JO: in Chrome we plan to group APIs together
  1148. # [16:07] <anne> JO: if you get 10 MB you can use it for several APIs
  1149. # [16:08] <anne> AvK: for the hint for the pre-allocation of memory case it should be a generic API if we are heading in that direction
  1150. # [16:09] * timeless looks up
  1151. # [16:10] <Zakim> +arun
  1152. # [16:10] <Zakim> -arun
  1153. # [16:10] <Zakim> +arun
  1154. # [16:10] <anne> JO: for the persistant vs temporary case that should be noted on the object store
  1155. # [16:10] <anne> JO: maybe change createObjectStore (or something like that) to take this as parameter
  1156. # [16:11] <anne> Topic: blobs
  1157. # [16:12] <anne> adrianba: how long do blobs persist?
  1158. # [16:12] * Joins: Nikunj (Adium@67.188.172.4)
  1159. # [16:12] <anne> JS: tied to the Window object
  1160. # [16:14] <anne> Eric: if you want to change a Blob you create a new one
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  1162. # [16:17] <anne> Eric: you cannot create a File at the moment
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  1164. # [16:17] <anne> Eric: a file has a last modified time and a name
  1165. # [16:18] <anne> Pablo: I'm assuming when you store it in the DB it is a copy
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  1168. # [16:21] <anne> JS: I hope Indexed DB to be enough
  1169. # [16:21] <anne> JS: not need a File System
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  1175. # [16:22] <arun> Zakim, who is on the call?
  1176. # [16:22] <Zakim> On the phone I see Rhone_3A, arun
  1177. # [16:22] * Joins: Johnson (IceChat77@84.14.50.82)
  1178. # [16:25] <anne> JS: I don't want File System to have a capability that Indexed DB does not
  1179. # [16:25] <anne> which is that you can modify a file that is stored
  1180. # [16:25] <anne> (if the scribe gets it correctly)
  1181. # [16:25] * Joins: mjs (mjs@84.14.50.82)
  1182. # [16:26] <anne> [questions on this topic are best asked on the list]
  1183. # [16:27] * Quits: Nikunj (Adium@67.188.172.4) (Quit: Leaving.)
  1184. # [16:28] <anne> Topic: Indexed DB Last Call
  1185. # [16:28] * Joins: noahm (noah_mende@84.14.50.82)
  1186. # [16:28] <anne> JO: should we set goals
  1187. # [16:29] <anne> adrianba: address the existing issues
  1188. # [16:29] <anne> JO: full text search is important
  1189. # [16:30] <anne> JO: not gonna be efficient with what we have now
  1190. # [16:30] * Quits: noah (noah_mende@84.14.50.82) (Ping timeout)
  1191. # [16:30] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  1192. # [16:30] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
  1193. # [16:31] <anne> JO: full text search is extremely important to Google
  1194. # [16:31] * Joins: sgondo (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  1195. # [16:31] <arun> Full text search was important to external developers as well.
  1196. # [16:32] <anne> JO: I hope that one or two changes to the API can make this possible
  1197. # [16:33] <anne> JO: I want to get proof first, before adding something to the specification
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  1201. # [16:35] <anne> synchronizing...
  1202. # [16:35] <anne> Pablo: some kind of tracking
  1203. # [16:35] <anne> tombstones?
  1204. # [16:36] <anne> [further discussion on list]
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  1209. # [16:40] * Joins: ericu (540e3252@128.30.52.43)
  1210. # [16:41] * arun notes that the group seems to have wrapped up discussions
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  1212. # [16:41] * arun till tomorrow. I'll wait till File stuff
  1213. # [16:41] * timeless ponders... which WG?
  1214. # [16:42] <anne> arun, you still here?
  1215. # [16:43] <arun> anne, yep
  1216. # [16:43] <anne> cool
  1217. # [16:43] * arun everything's good if they're not on strike
  1218. # [16:43] <anne> I guess Jonas can go through the File API mostly
  1219. # [16:43] * Quits: pererik (pe@84.14.50.82) (Ping timeout)
  1220. # [16:43] <anne> might be tricky over the phone
  1221. # [16:43] <arun> anne, it's cool. I can hear you guys really clearly
  1222. # [16:44] <arun> anne, if I need to speak I'll just speak up.
  1223. # [16:44] * Joins: pererik_ (pe@192.36.157.82)
  1224. # [16:44] <arun> anne, you can refer to the email I sent about agenda stuff if you like.
  1225. # [16:45] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@213.236.208.22)
  1226. # [16:45] * pererik_ is now known as pererik
  1227. # [16:45] <anne> http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/TPAC2010
  1228. # [16:45] <anne> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/FileAPI/
  1229. # [16:45] <anne> Topic: File API
  1230. # [16:46] <arun> anne is the URL string trouble maker
  1231. # [16:47] * Quits: beverloo (peter@85.223.116.170) (Connection reset by peer)
  1232. # [16:50] <jorlow> scribe: jorlow
  1233. # [16:50] <jorlow> anne, doesn't like adding 2 more methods to window
  1234. # [16:51] <jorlow> arun, any other solution is back to the drawing board
  1235. # [16:51] <jorlow> anne, vendor prefixing might help limit usage
  1236. # [16:51] <jorlow> anne, but we still need to find the right solution
  1237. # [16:52] * Quits: andreip (andreip@84.14.50.82) (Ping timeout)
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  1239. # [16:53] <jorlow> ericu, stuff put on the global object so that stuff is tied to the lifetime of the window
  1240. # [16:53] <jorlow> jonas: when window is nagivated away, all urls are revoked
  1241. # [16:53] <jorlow> sam: you can do that regaurless of the syntax
  1242. # [16:54] <jorlow> ericu: what about if you pass from one window to another? this is more explicit
  1243. # [16:54] <jorlow> sam, disagrees
  1244. # [16:55] <jorlow> jonas, is fine with other suggestions. thinks reusing url is weird because it's only somewhat related
  1245. # [16:55] * Joins: Peter` (peter@85.223.116.170)
  1246. # [16:55] <jorlow> sam, so you could just have a blobURI object
  1247. # [16:56] <jorlow> jonas, an object might make sense....something about domURL
  1248. # [16:56] <jorlow> anne, don't you want to stringify it as well?
  1249. # [16:56] <jorlow> jonas, no
  1250. # [16:56] <jorlow> jonas, you'd create an object from a string
  1251. # [16:57] * Joins: dveditz (dveditz@99.63.144.157)
  1252. # [16:57] <jorlow> anne, you're still not solving the problem
  1253. # [16:57] <jorlow> jonas, trying to solve 2 problmes
  1254. # [16:57] <jorlow> jonas, something so we don't create strings...for that, need to create a new type of interface...call it domURL for now
  1255. # [16:58] <jorlow> anne, domURL could be some union type of blob and stream
  1256. # [16:58] * arun jorlow, use ":" when quoting someone e.g. anne: domURL could be some union type..."
  1257. # [16:58] <jorlow> jonas, don't want create to be through some constructor and revoke through a completely different api
  1258. # [16:59] <jorlow> jonas: we coudl create a global dummy object with both methods
  1259. # [16:59] <jorlow> arun: is it worth make global dummy object the same thing being specced by adam barth
  1260. # [16:59] <jorlow> no
  1261. # [17:00] <jorlow> jonas: abarth's thing is to solve parsing urls. this isn't want we need to do with blob urls
  1262. # [17:00] <jorlow> anne: not so sure
  1263. # [17:01] <jorlow> jonas: there's a vague resemblance given that they both revolve around URLs
  1264. # [17:01] <jorlow> sam: agrees
  1265. # [17:01] <jorlow> sam: especially since adam's thing doens't exist yet
  1266. # [17:01] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@213.236.208.22) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  1267. # [17:01] <jorlow> sam: can we discuss other things?
  1268. # [17:01] * Quits: mjs (mjs@84.14.50.82) (Quit: mjs)
  1269. # [17:02] <jorlow> jonas: the proposed solution is some global object where we put 2 functions
  1270. # [17:02] <jorlow> anne: is there some existing place we could put them?
  1271. # [17:02] <jorlow> sam: maybe window.blob? but you want to do it for stream too so maybe that's not a good place
  1272. # [17:02] * Joins: mjs (mjs@84.14.50.82)
  1273. # [17:03] <jorlow> ericu and others: k, let's move on
  1274. # [17:03] <timeless> s/coudl/could/
  1275. # [17:03] <timeless> s/doens't/doesn't/
  1276. # [17:03] <jorlow> sam: 2 questions. file list has been redefined to be a sequence of files rather than a simple object. our implementation has file lists like node lists. sequence doesn't have an item function.
  1277. # [17:03] <jorlow> anne: cameron said sequence isn't for that type of thing
  1278. # [17:04] <jorlow> jonas: saw hixie open a bug on something similar today
  1279. # [17:04] <jorlow> sam: in the mean time, should we go back to the simple interface?
  1280. # [17:04] <jorlow> anne: file lists should probably follow others
  1281. # [17:04] <jorlow> general agreement
  1282. # [17:05] <jorlow> sam: file reader + write have event handler attributes but don't inherit from event target.
  1283. # [17:05] <jorlow> arun: it does
  1284. # [17:05] <jorlow> sam: sees it...what about writer?
  1285. # [17:05] <jorlow> ericu: if so, it's a bug
  1286. # [17:05] <jorlow> anne: we should have some consistency
  1287. # [17:06] <jorlow> sam: using implements probably makes sense (vs. inheriting) in the spec
  1288. # [17:06] <jorlow> arun: agrees with sam
  1289. # [17:06] <jorlow> anne: XHR inherits
  1290. # [17:06] <jorlow> sam: in webkit, event target isn't in the prototype chain
  1291. # [17:06] <jorlow> sam: does it affect it though?
  1292. # [17:06] <jorlow> anne: maybe xhr should change
  1293. # [17:06] <jorlow> jonas: no advantage to not inheriting
  1294. # [17:07] <jorlow> sam: let's avoid multiple inheritance
  1295. # [17:07] * Quits: freedom (freedom@84.14.50.82) (Ping timeout)
  1296. # [17:07] <jorlow> jonas: agrees
  1297. # [17:07] <jorlow> jonas: but most of these thigns don't inherit
  1298. # [17:07] <jorlow> anne: XHR does
  1299. # [17:07] <jorlow> jonas: but you can add it to the bottom of the chain
  1300. # [17:07] <timeless> s/thigns/things/
  1301. # [17:08] <jorlow> sam: everything in svg uses multiple inheritance
  1302. # [17:08] <AnssiK> Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen
  1303. # [17:08] <jorlow> sam: we should probably bring this up as a WebIDL issue
  1304. # [17:08] * timeless Zakim , who's here?
  1305. # [17:09] * timeless Zakim, who's here?
  1306. # [17:09] * Zakim sees on the phone: Rhone_3A, arun
  1307. # [17:09] * Zakim sees on irc: mjs, dveditz, Peter`, andreip, pererik, ericu, sgondo, arun, bryan, darobin, pablo, yongil_jang, Ileana, komasshu, adrianba, ArtB, hidetaka, junliao, seungjae, davidb,
  1308. # [17:09] * Zakim ... chaals, eliot, richt, sicking, lgombos_w, jorlow, Kai, homata, smaug_, aroben, AnssiK, adam, shepazu, anne, weinig, anthony, myakura, timeless, Hixie, kennyluck, Zakim, gavin,
  1309. # [17:09] <jorlow> jonas: it's unfortuate you can't add stuff to event target prototype
  1310. # [17:09] * Zakim ... MikeSmith, RRSAgent, krijnh, hober, lgombos, anthony_work, hsivonen, Martijnc, karl, phenny, sideshow, trackbot, gsnedders, jgraham, heycam, Dashiva, Lawouach, ilkka, dom
  1311. # [17:09] <jorlow> sam: if we could solve multiple inheritance in a good way, then maybe it's a non-issue
  1312. # [17:09] * arun *sigh really prefers implements
  1313. # [17:09] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  1314. # [17:09] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
  1315. # [17:09] <jorlow> sam: jonas, are you coming to tc39?
  1316. # [17:09] <jorlow> jonas: yes
  1317. # [17:10] <jorlow> anne: does it have anything more on file api?
  1318. # [17:10] <jorlow> s/does it/do we/
  1319. # [17:10] * sgondo slaps sgondo around a bit with a large fishbot
  1320. # [17:11] <MikeSmith> s/Transactions/scribe: anne/
  1321. # [17:11] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  1322. # [17:11] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
  1323. # [17:11] <jorlow> jonas: request from google...when you request url, wants to do something related to content type (didn't understand)
  1324. # [17:11] <jorlow> i didn't understand
  1325. # [17:11] <arun> arun: do we still have URL string dereferencing behavior?
  1326. # [17:12] <jorlow> ericu: right now content type is a property of blob
  1327. # [17:12] <jorlow> ericu: we could add these properties to blob directly
  1328. # [17:12] <jorlow> arun: only contnet disposition was asked for
  1329. # [17:13] <jorlow> arun: just like content type
  1330. # [17:13] <MikeSmith> i/What is the current topic/scribe: anne
  1331. # [17:13] <timeless> s/contnet/content/
  1332. # [17:13] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  1333. # [17:13] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
  1334. # [17:13] * timeless MikeSmith: why have my s//'s failed?
  1335. # [17:14] <MikeSmith> dunno
  1336. # [17:14] <jorlow> jonas: darin fisher has asked for content disposition. jonas has said to use file save back to him
  1337. # [17:14] <jorlow> jonas: and point the file saver to the blob directly
  1338. # [17:14] <jorlow> ericu: we want blob url to work just like any other
  1339. # [17:14] <arun> arun: right, so instead of Content-Disposition on Blob URLs, you have a URL argument to the FileSave constructor.
  1340. # [17:15] <jorlow> ericu: gmail offline, for example, wants to be able to view and download with similar code. just different urls. presentation layer stays same, but backend just gives different urls
  1341. # [17:15] * Quits: sgondo (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  1342. # [17:15] <jorlow> sam: not sure he understands why you'd create a url from a blob and pass it to an XHR
  1343. # [17:15] <jorlow> jonas: not sure anyone suggested this
  1344. # [17:15] <jorlow> sam: isn't that the reason to set headers: to get it through XHR?
  1345. # [17:15] <jorlow> jonas: no, it was just to explain
  1346. # [17:15] <jorlow> jonas: iframes care about headers
  1347. # [17:16] * Joins: freedom (freedom@84.14.50.82)
  1348. # [17:16] <jorlow> jonas: to do gmail file saving, create iframe, take blob, create url, content dis. header, iframe looks at that header, it works
  1349. # [17:16] <jorlow> ericu: can't you do that today?
  1350. # [17:17] <jorlow> ericu: only need iframe trick if you don't have content disposition header
  1351. # [17:17] <jorlow> ericu: wait...hm...
  1352. # [17:17] <jorlow> jonas: link with target: _blank
  1353. # [17:17] <jorlow> sam: that opens a window
  1354. # [17:17] <jorlow> anne: behavior varries
  1355. # [17:17] <jorlow> sam: agreed
  1356. # [17:17] <jorlow> sam: very marginal use case
  1357. # [17:17] <jorlow> jonas: it's a very roundabout way of triggering file save dialog
  1358. # [17:18] <arun> arun: +1 to sam, sicking
  1359. # [17:18] <jorlow> ericu: urls have these properties already
  1360. # [17:18] <jorlow> ericu: making offline urls work just like online urls seems nice
  1361. # [17:18] <jorlow> sam: they're more a property of the resource, not the url itself
  1362. # [17:18] <jorlow> jonas: it's actually a property of the person initiating the load
  1363. # [17:18] <jorlow> jonas: make file save support taking url
  1364. # [17:18] <jorlow> jonas: same architecture for blobs and urls
  1365. # [17:19] <jorlow> sam: some browsers default behavior is not prompt and download to directory
  1366. # [17:19] <jorlow> sam: so that'd behave differently
  1367. # [17:19] <jorlow> sam: iframe with content disposition treated as download, file saver treated as save as
  1368. # [17:19] <jorlow> jonas: i'm not sure we'd behave differently
  1369. # [17:20] <jorlow> timeless: we shipped that behavior 2+ years ago
  1370. # [17:20] <timeless> [we = Mozilla/Firefox]
  1371. # [17:20] <jorlow> ericu: if you want file saver to do the default, that's another behavior
  1372. # [17:21] <jorlow> jonas: if people only want a download mechanism, we should do it right not extend hack
  1373. # [17:21] <jorlow> arun: hack exists for http reasons
  1374. # [17:21] <jorlow> arun: ericu's "uber question" is a good one
  1375. # [17:22] <jorlow> ericu: allowing all headers in seems cleaner
  1376. # [17:22] <jorlow> anne: it's complicated if we only care about content disposition
  1377. # [17:22] <jorlow> sam: setting something like x frame options could be useful
  1378. # [17:23] <jorlow> sam: my recollection are that most of these things are attributed to the resource not the url
  1379. # [17:23] <jorlow> sam: it seems a bit hackish to set headers on a blob
  1380. # [17:24] <jorlow> ericu: agrees. a blob might never be used as a url
  1381. # [17:24] <jorlow> ericu: in some cases, the headers are more assicated with the url rather than the resource itself
  1382. # [17:24] <jorlow> jonas: this discussion has gotten a bit meta
  1383. # [17:25] * Quits: yongil_jang (yongil@84.14.50.82) (Ping timeout)
  1384. # [17:25] <jorlow> jonas: should the headers arguments exist on the blob or create url function
  1385. # [17:25] <jorlow> sam: that's one question. the other is whether we need the headers
  1386. # [17:25] <jorlow> ericu: likes headers. if we have them, put them on createURL function
  1387. # [17:25] * arun window.MysterObject.createObjectURL(blobarg, arrayOfCrud) ?
  1388. # [17:26] <jorlow> anne: let's move discussion to list
  1389. # [17:26] <jorlow> anne: talks about his sneaky plan
  1390. # [17:26] <jorlow> ericu: we can go back to file after writer/system questions
  1391. # [17:27] <timeless> the example for using URL instead of Blob to have the bits is to match Gmail where an image attachment has View and Download links - two urls to the same blob data
  1392. # [17:27] <jorlow> ericu: doesn't have any issues to bring up
  1393. # [17:27] <jorlow> anne: can you give a quick introduction?
  1394. # [17:27] * timeless topic: ?
  1395. # [17:27] <jorlow> ericu: does said introcution...
  1396. # [17:27] <timeless> s/cut/duct/
  1397. # [17:28] <timeless> Topic: FileSaver
  1398. # [17:28] <anne> s/FileSaver/File: Writer and File: Systems and Directories/
  1399. # [17:28] <timeless> RRSAgent, make minutes
  1400. # [17:28] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-webapps-minutes.html timeless
  1401. # [17:29] <jorlow> sam: so file writer sync doesn't not pop up a dialog?
  1402. # [17:29] <timeless> s/introcution/introduction/
  1403. # [17:29] <jorlow> ericu: yup
  1404. # [17:29] <jorlow> ericu: this is just a writing interface...doesn't describe how to get access
  1405. # [17:29] <jorlow> ericu: file system spec gives another away to get access to a file
  1406. # [17:30] <jorlow> ericu: otherwise the only way is file saver
  1407. # [17:30] <jorlow> ericu: file system is like a chrooted environment to create dirs, files, etc
  1408. # [17:30] <jorlow> ericu: file system is good if your data isn't structured
  1409. # [17:30] <jorlow> ericu: game designers want this for art assets, for example
  1410. # [17:31] <jorlow> sam: what about indexedb
  1411. # [17:31] <jorlow> jorlow: or app cache
  1412. # [17:31] <jorlow> ericu: not good match for app cache...it's all or nothing
  1413. # [17:31] <timeless> q?
  1414. # [17:31] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1415. # [17:31] <jorlow> jonas: thinks system is not needed
  1416. # [17:31] <jorlow> jonas: because of indexedDB
  1417. # [17:31] <jorlow> sam: data cache or an extension to app cache might have worked as well
  1418. # [17:31] <jorlow> ericu: yes
  1419. # [17:31] <jorlow> sam: waht about various databases
  1420. # [17:32] <timeless> s/waht/what/
  1421. # [17:32] <jorlow> sam: jonas's face was scary
  1422. # [17:32] <jorlow> ericu: it's a matter of taste
  1423. # [17:32] <jorlow> sam: seems like adding this much API surface area for a matter of taste is bad taste
  1424. # [17:32] <jorlow> ericu: it's more than just taste
  1425. # [17:32] <arun> arun: I agree with ericu about it being a matter of taste. Some like file system based metaphors, and some like databases for everything.
  1426. # [17:32] <jorlow> ericu: sharing data with apps outside of the browser is good too
  1427. # [17:33] * arun is the speaker Sam Weinig?
  1428. # [17:33] * timeless nods
  1429. # [17:33] <jorlow> sam: indexedDB could store files in the file system if it wanted to
  1430. # [17:33] <jorlow> ericu: that seems odd. no hierarchy
  1431. # [17:33] <jorlow> jonas: yeah, no meta data
  1432. # [17:33] <jorlow> ericu: gives a use case
  1433. # [17:33] <jorlow> sam: if that's a use case, it should be explicit in spec
  1434. # [17:34] <jorlow> sam: and what about when file system doesn't exist
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  1436. # [17:34] <jorlow> ericu: that's one reason to make it explicit in the spec
  1437. # [17:34] <jorlow> ericu: it's a significant motivator, but not required
  1438. # [17:34] * Joins: yongil_jang (yongil@84.14.50.82)
  1439. # [17:35] <jorlow> jorlow: you could store meta data ad-hoc in indexedDB if you wanted to
  1440. # [17:35] <jorlow> jonas: the meta data will be understandable by other apps
  1441. # [17:35] * Quits: pablo (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  1442. # [17:36] <jorlow> jonas: hurdle: some people are nervous about allowing websites to save stuff to a known location
  1443. # [17:36] * Quits: kennyluck (kennyluck@128.30.52.28) (Quit: kennyluck)
  1444. # [17:36] <jorlow> sam: we probably want to add changes to mac os X to allow ..?
  1445. # [17:36] <jorlow> ericu: in current implementation, files not saved in known location
  1446. # [17:36] <jorlow> ericu: describes the hack
  1447. # [17:37] <jorlow> ericu: many apps know how to scan a hierarchy of dirs (that can scan it in)
  1448. # [17:37] <jorlow> timeless: then you just exploit some app like iTunes or picassa
  1449. # [17:38] <jorlow> adrianba: what about social engineering
  1450. # [17:38] <jorlow> ericu: opening a file deep in the chrome profile dir...?
  1451. # [17:38] <jorlow> ericu: and your av software should still run on it
  1452. # [17:39] <jorlow> adrianba: they have support for knowing the source of the download
  1453. # [17:39] <timeless> s/picassa/Picasa/
  1454. # [17:39] <jorlow> sam: mac os x too
  1455. # [17:39] <jorlow> jorlow: can't the file system api just set the bits
  1456. # [17:39] <timeless> windows too
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  1458. # [17:40] <jorlow> adrianba: we distinguish between url and site
  1459. # [17:40] <jorlow> ericu: this makes it slightly harder, but it's not a fundamental issue
  1460. # [17:41] <jorlow> adrianba: allowing a web application to save something without immediate consent of user...then social engineering
  1461. # [17:41] <timeless> [ such as attacking Sherlock, Google Desktop Search ]
  1462. # [17:41] <jorlow> ericu: it's a valid concern and i understand. you might just need to tweak the reputation system a bit to handle this case
  1463. # [17:42] <jorlow> sam: my issue is not security, it's that we already have a lot of storage options
  1464. # [17:42] <jorlow> sam: unnecessary risk to throw 2 new APIs at the web at once
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  1467. # [17:42] <arun> OK big +1 to weinig
  1468. # [17:42] <jorlow> ericu: well it's not there yet and it won't necessarily be popular
  1469. # [17:43] <jorlow> sam: but it can never be removed
  1470. # [17:43] * Parts: Ileana (il9507@84.14.50.82)
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  1472. # [17:43] <jorlow> jorlow: isn't it behind prefix
  1473. # [17:43] <jorlow> timeless: that doens't matter much
  1474. # [17:44] <jorlow> ericu: and actually our implementation is not behind prefix
  1475. # [17:44] * Quits: lgombos_w (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  1476. # [17:44] <jorlow> ericu: which is a fair objection
  1477. # [17:44] * Quits: Kai (chatzilla@84.14.50.82) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.12/20101026210630])
  1478. # [17:44] <jorlow> ericu: a number of devs asked for it
  1479. # [17:44] <jorlow> sam: web sql is same
  1480. # [17:44] <timeless> s/doens't/doesn't/
  1481. # [17:44] <jorlow> sam: we should have been more careful and not do it
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  1483. # [17:45] * Parts: freedom (freedom@84.14.50.82)
  1484. # [17:45] <jorlow> sam: has actual question
  1485. # [17:45] <jorlow> sam: file saver sync doesn't seem to have an actual interface attached to it?
  1486. # [17:45] <jorlow> ericu: will fix it
  1487. # [17:45] <jorlow> sam: from worker, would you pop up save dialog
  1488. # [17:45] <jorlow> sam: what window would it be attached to
  1489. # [17:45] <jorlow> ericu: shared worker is an odd case
  1490. # [17:46] <jorlow> jorlow: brought up more shared worker issues similar
  1491. # [17:46] <jorlow> ericu: yeah...we need to fix some stuff
  1492. # [17:46] <jorlow> jonas: want file save to be able to handle the url
  1493. # [17:46] <jorlow> jonas: content disposition is a hack, so it'd be nice to move away from it
  1494. # [17:47] <arun> Yeah; while we hash out headers on Blob URIs, I think it's good to allow FileSaver to have a URL argument
  1495. # [17:47] * Joins: kennyluck (kennyluck@128.30.52.28)
  1496. # [17:47] * timeless arun you're too noisy
  1497. # [17:47] <arun> Zakim, mute arun
  1498. # [17:47] <Zakim> arun should now be muted
  1499. # [17:47] <jorlow> sam: people already hack around it, iframe trick might as well become official
  1500. # [17:47] * Joins: mjs (mjs@84.14.50.82)
  1501. # [17:47] * arun timeless, I'm sorry, I'm typing notes as I listen along :)
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  1503. # [17:48] * timeless nods
  1504. # [17:48] * timeless notes that Zakim q is rather helpful
  1505. # [17:48] <jorlow> sam: anne are you editing progress events?
  1506. # [17:48] <jorlow> sam: is there going to be some way to say some interface implements something...rather than repeating the work for each progress event
  1507. # [17:49] <jorlow> jonas: there's some web idl way to say supplemental, but reverse
  1508. # [17:49] <jorlow> ericu: onload start, and that doesn't make sense when you're writing
  1509. # [17:49] * Quits: chaals (chaals@84.14.50.82) (Quit: chaals)
  1510. # [17:49] <anne> http://www.w3.org/TR/progress-events/
  1511. # [17:50] <jorlow> jonas: interesting situation when you want progress events for something other than loads since much of them have load in the name
  1512. # [17:50] <jorlow> anne: they're actually specced to be pretty vague
  1513. # [17:50] <jorlow> anne: can't rename them at this point
  1514. # [17:50] <jorlow> adrianba: could you have multiple names for something
  1515. # [17:51] <jorlow> sam: this is a bad idea because events are expensive, therefore firing 2 events is expensive
  1516. # [17:51] * Quits: homata (homata@84.14.50.82) (Ping timeout)
  1517. # [17:51] <jorlow> sam: we've done this for focus and DOM (yell) Focus
  1518. # [17:51] <jorlow> mjs: you can't actually alias because of add event listener's semantics
  1519. # [17:51] <jorlow> jonas: agreed, aliasing is bad
  1520. # [17:52] <jorlow> anne: the event names are just suggestions
  1521. # [17:52] <jorlow> anne: you can call your events whatever you want
  1522. # [17:52] * Quits: jgraham (jgraham@74.53.238.210) (Ping timeout)
  1523. # [17:52] <jorlow> jonas: it makes sense to do things this way
  1524. # [17:53] <jorlow> sam: should they be save start?
  1525. # [17:53] <jorlow> ericu: filewriter derives from this and uses the same events
  1526. # [17:53] <jorlow> jonas: the interface names are fully generic
  1527. # [17:53] <jorlow> anne: interface still has loaded
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  1529. # [17:53] <jorlow> ericu: I think I just put done?
  1530. # [17:54] <jorlow> ericu: going to fix the spec
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  1532. # [17:54] <jorlow> mjs: we should change the syntax of html
  1533. # [17:54] * arun wait, what the heck happened to the meeting? :)
  1534. # [17:54] <mjs> </sarcasm>
  1535. # [17:55] <jorlow> ericu: taking a step back....
  1536. # [17:55] <jorlow> sam: when people implement event listeners, the event they get will be a little funny because it has words like loaded
  1537. # [17:55] <jorlow> anne: inherited progress events from svg...no one backed me up
  1538. # [17:55] <jorlow> mjs: lots of bike shedding
  1539. # [17:56] <jorlow> jonas: it sucks to add aliases
  1540. # [17:56] <jorlow> sam: maybe add progress of loaded that calls the same underlying function
  1541. # [17:56] <jorlow> sam: bytes progressed maybe?
  1542. # [17:56] <jorlow> jonas: just use progress
  1543. # [17:57] <jorlow> anne: we do have some aliased properties elsewhere I guess
  1544. # [17:57] * timeless gives an "oh no!" face to shepazu as he talks about another Progress event spec from the SVG WG
  1545. # [17:58] <jorlow> anne: let's leave "early"
  1546. # [17:58] <jorlow> anne's chairing skillz are celebrated
  1547. # [17:58] * Quits: komasshu (kensaku.ko@84.14.50.82) (Client exited)
  1548. # [17:58] * arun the meeting was adjourned, and there was much celebrating
  1549. # [17:58] <anne> RRSAgent, make minutes
  1550. # [17:58] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-webapps-minutes.html anne
  1551. # [17:58] * dom anyone interested in werewolf: 9:45, top floor of hilton across the bridge
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  1559. # [18:01] <Zakim> -Rhone_3A
  1560. # [18:02] <shepazu> Zakim, end telcon
  1561. # [18:02] <Zakim> I don't understand 'end telcon', shepazu
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  1563. # [18:02] <Zakim> -arun
  1564. # [18:02] <Zakim> IA_WebApps(TPAC)4:00AM has ended
  1565. # [18:02] <Zakim> Attendees were Rhone_3A, +1.415.294.aaaa, arun, +1.408.446.aabb, Nikunj
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  1606. # [19:02] * Parts: Nikunj (Adium@67.188.172.4)
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  1617. # [20:14] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
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  1634. # Session Close: Wed Nov 03 00:00:00 2010

The end :)