/irc-logs / w3c / #webapps / 2011-04-01 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Fri Apr 01 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #webapps
  3. # [00:38] * Quits: smaug_ (chatzilla@82.181.139.127) (Ping timeout)
  4. # [02:13] * Quits: kennyluck (kennyluck@128.30.52.169) (Quit: kennyluck)
  5. # [03:16] * Joins: kennyluck (kennyluck@128.30.52.169)
  6. # [05:07] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@111.188.43.9) (Ping timeout)
  7. # [05:14] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@114.48.189.90)
  8. # [06:11] * Joins: dveditz (dveditz@63.249.106.47)
  9. # [06:31] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@114.48.189.90) (Ping timeout)
  10. # [06:52] * Quits: [tm] (MikeSmith@80.68.92.65) (Ping timeout)
  11. # [06:54] * Joins: [tm] (MikeSmith@80.68.92.65)
  12. # [06:57] * Quits: kennyluck (kennyluck@128.30.52.169) (Quit: kennyluck)
  13. # [07:17] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@111.188.43.134)
  14. # [08:17] * Joins: kennyluck (kennyluck@128.30.52.169)
  15. # [09:36] * Quits: dveditz (dveditz@63.249.106.47) (Quit: dveditz)
  16. # [09:50] * Quits: jrossi (jrossi@131.107.0.78) (Quit: jrossi)
  17. # [10:06] * Joins: richt (richt@213.236.208.22)
  18. # [11:19] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@84.215.59.50) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  19. # [11:23] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@111.188.43.134) (Ping timeout)
  20. # [11:40] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@213.236.208.22)
  21. # [11:40] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@213.236.208.22) (Quit: Leaving)
  22. # [11:40] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@213.236.208.22)
  23. # [11:46] * Joins: smaug_ (chatzilla@85.77.87.204)
  24. # [12:24] * Quits: smaug_ (chatzilla@85.77.87.204) (Ping timeout)
  25. # [13:29] * Quits: Lawouach (sylvain@82.229.61.197) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  26. # [13:42] * Joins: ArtB (ArtB@192.100.124.218)
  27. # [13:56] * Quits: kennyluck (kennyluck@128.30.52.169) (Ping timeout)
  28. # [13:59] * Joins: kennyluck (kennyluck@128.30.52.169)
  29. # [14:25] <Lachy> heycam, yt?
  30. # [14:52] * Quits: richt (richt@213.236.208.22) (Client exited)
  31. # [15:04] * Quits: kennyluck (kennyluck@128.30.52.169) (Quit: kennyluck)
  32. # [15:23] * Joins: davidb (davidb@66.207.206.180)
  33. # [16:35] * Joins: Martijnc (Martijnc@91.176.231.15)
  34. # [16:38] * Joins: kennyluck (kennyluck@128.30.52.169)
  35. # [16:42] * Joins: Ms2ger (Ms2ger@91.181.168.229)
  36. # [17:06] * Joins: smaug_ (chatzilla@82.181.139.127)
  37. # [17:21] * Quits: smaug_ (chatzilla@82.181.139.127) (Ping timeout)
  38. # [17:27] <heycam> hi Lachy
  39. # [17:33] <gsnedders> Where is the behaviour of [[HasProperty]] defines for WebIDL/ES?
  40. # [17:40] <Ms2ger> WebIDL defines that properties must be defined on various objects, and [[GetProperty]] finds them, no?
  41. # [17:40] <heycam> Web IDL doesn't define any special HasProperty
  42. # [17:40] <heycam> so it's just the default ES one
  43. # [17:41] <gsnedders> heycam: Where does it define it's the default ES one? You're defining host objects, so as far as I can tell what [[HasProperty]] does is undefined
  44. # [17:41] * Joins: smaug_ (chatzilla@82.181.139.127)
  45. # [17:42] <gsnedders> (Because ES doesn't require host objects to follow the one defined in ES at all)
  46. # [17:44] <heycam> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/#ecmascript-binding
  47. # [17:44] <heycam> it seems to miss HasProperty!
  48. # [17:44] <gsnedders> You'd need to say something along the lines of "Host objects defined in this specification must behave identically to native objects except where defined otherwise in this specification."
  49. # [17:44] <heycam> actually that's fine
  50. # [17:45] <gsnedders> As otherwise you'll always end up with loop-holes, no?
  51. # [17:45] <heycam> "Objects defined in this section have internal properties as described in section 8.12 unless otherwise specified"
  52. # [17:45] <gsnedders> Just having the internal properties doesn't require Array.prototype.splice to be allowed to be used on a host object
  53. # [17:45] <gsnedders> It is valid behaviour for host objects to not support being used in such contexts
  54. # [17:46] <heycam> hmm, I'm not sure about that
  55. # [17:47] <heycam> [[HasInstance]] is defined in 8.12
  56. # [17:47] <heycam> and splice doesn't seem to restrict itself to taking any particular kind of object
  57. # [17:47] <Ms2ger> What about something like "For objects as defined in this spec, the 'do whatever you want' clause in ES5 doesn't apply"?
  58. # [17:48] <gsnedders> heycam: "NOTE: The splice function is intentionally generic; it does not require that its this value be an Array object. Therefore it can be transferred to other kinds of objects for use as a method. Whether the splice function can be applied successfully to a host object is implementation-dependent."
  59. # [17:49] <heycam> gsnedders, so I wonder if "implementation-dependent" there means just dependent on how exactly the host object behaves
  60. # [17:50] <gsnedders> heycam: They're allowed to do that because, "Host objects may support these internal properties with any implementation-dependent behaviour as long as it is consistent with the specific host object restrictions stated in this document". So it is allowed for them to change their behaviour to throw when ToObject is called from the Array.prototype.splice context
  61. # [17:50] <gsnedders> heycam: That's not the view of TC-39, AFAIK
  62. # [17:50] <heycam> I didn't know custom ToObject behaviour was allowed
  63. # [17:51] <gsnedders> I *believe* it is. I could be wrong.
  64. # [17:51] <heycam> I thought it was just [[InternalMethod]] things
  65. # [17:51] <gsnedders> But certainly, you could change a [[Get]] within splice to make it always throw
  66. # [17:51] <gsnedders> Quite how you justify it from the spec is beside the point :)
  67. # [17:51] <heycam> sure, but Web IDL defines whether [[Get]] is the ES5 default one or a specific one
  68. # [17:51] <heycam> so it should be defined what happens
  69. # [17:51] * heycam has a meeting and has to go, but maybe you could mail public-script-coord?
  70. # [17:52] <gsnedders> Yeah, sure
  71. # [17:53] <gsnedders> (Basically, there is consensus within TC-39 that what exactly host objects are allowed to do is rather undefined)
  72. # [17:54] <Ms2ger> (Sounds like the consensus in the CSSWG that the spec contradicts itself and hence a note should be added to alert the reader about that fact)
  73. # [17:58] * Quits: ArtB (ArtB@192.100.124.218) (Ping timeout)
  74. # [19:07] * Quits: kennyluck (kennyluck@128.30.52.169) (Quit: kennyluck)
  75. # [19:08] * Quits: karl (karlcow@128.30.54.58) (Quit: Freedom - to walk free and own no superior.)
  76. # [19:13] * Joins: dveditz (dveditz@63.245.220.240)
  77. # [19:23] * Quits: smaug_ (chatzilla@82.181.139.127) (Ping timeout)
  78. # [19:26] * Joins: kennyluck (kennyluck@128.30.52.169)
  79. # [19:41] <Lachy> heycam, you still there?
  80. # [19:42] <Lachy> heycam, I wanted to get some clarification from you about what you said here about [NoInterfaceObject] and the implements statement http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-perf/2011Mar/0058.html
  81. # [19:42] <Lachy> and check with you that I'm using them correctly in Selectors API, as we are trying to take it to PR soon http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/selectors-api/
  82. # [19:43] <Lachy> also, I believe I'm using [Supplemental] incorrectly and I'm going to remove it. I'm not sure why I have it in there at all.
  83. # [19:44] <heycam> Lachy, sorry bit busy now -- do you mind to send me mail about it? I'll take a look tonight.
  84. # [19:44] <Lachy> ok, I'll mail public-webapps
  85. # [19:45] <heycam> thanks
  86. # [19:46] <Ms2ger> I think you just want NoInterfaceObject
  87. # [19:51] <Lachy> Ms2ger, yes, that was what I thought, but there are some things heycam said about NoInterfaceObject that don't seem to make sense with regards to NoInterfaceObject, nor seem to match implementations
  88. # [19:52] <Ms2ger> There's implementations?
  89. # [19:56] <Lachy> I mean implementations of querySelector and the way in which they are exposed on Element.prototype, which relates to what heycam was talking about in that mail I linked to (albeit, for a different API)
  90. # [19:57] <Ms2ger> I think Gecko puts those on NSElement or some such
  91. # [19:59] <Lachy> yes, Gecko, WebKit and Opera, all do it the way I expect them too. I want to make sure the IDL actually specifies what I expect, and what they have implemented.
  92. # [20:01] <Ms2ger> Makes sense
  93. # [20:32] * Joins: ArtB (ArtB@192.100.124.218)
  94. # [20:39] * Quits: Martijnc (Martijnc@91.176.231.15) (Connection reset by peer)
  95. # [20:41] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@213.236.208.22) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  96. # [20:48] * Joins: Martijnc (Martijnc@91.176.248.100)
  97. # [21:28] * Joins: karl (karlcow@128.30.54.58)
  98. # [21:49] * Joins: smaug_ (chatzilla@82.181.139.127)

The end :)