/irc-logs / w3c / #webapps / 2011-10-31 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Oct 31 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #webapps
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  34. # [04:05] * ArtB changes topic to 'WebApps WG; TPAC Agenda = http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/TPAC2011#Agenda_Monday.2C_October_31 ; krijnh's Log = http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/'
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  78. # [15:22] <anne> Should LenientThis not be LegacyLenientThis?
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  85. # [16:28] <heycam> should Anne not be LegacyAnne? :D
  86. # [16:29] <heycam> oh, anne is not here :)
  87. # [16:30] <Ms2ger> LegacyCam?
  88. # [16:31] <heycam> hey Ms2ger, I'm guessing you are not at tpac?
  89. # [16:31] <Ms2ger> Nope
  90. # [16:31] <Ms2ger> Or am I... ;)
  91. # [16:32] <heycam> heh
  92. # [16:33] * heycam heads down to Grand Ballroom, C-E
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  94. # [16:36] <Ms2ger> Webapps is in C
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  97. # [16:39] * abarsto is now known as ArtB
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  99. # [16:46] * ArtB changes topic to 'WebApps f2f meeting; Agenda = kwz.me/gE ; VC PIN = 2011'
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  107. # [17:00] <ArtB> zakim, this will be webapps
  108. # [17:00] <Zakim> ok, ArtB; I see RWC_WAPI(WebAppsWG)12:00PM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
  109. # [17:00] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.169)
  110. # [17:00] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-webapps-irc
  111. # [17:00] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make log Public
  112. # [17:00] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, ArtB
  113. # [17:00] <ArtB> Chair: Art_Barstow, Charles_McCathieNevile
  114. # [17:01] <ArtB> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/TPAC2011#Agenda_Monday.2C_October_31
  115. # [17:01] <ArtB> Meeting: WebApps f2f Meeeting
  116. # [17:02] * Joins: adrianba (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  117. # [17:02] * Ms2ger waves
  118. # [17:03] <Zakim> RWC_WAPI(WebAppsWG)12:00PM has now started
  119. # [17:03] <Zakim> + +1.408.988.aaaa
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  126. # [17:05] <dom> RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
  127. # [17:05] <RRSAgent> ok, dom; I will not start a new log at midnight
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  130. # [17:05] <Ms2ger> Zakim, what's the code?
  131. # [17:05] <Zakim> the conference code is 2011 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), Ms2ger
  132. # [17:06] <Zakim> +??P10
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  135. # [17:06] <anne> hey chaals
  136. # [17:06] <anne> long time
  137. # [17:06] <Ms2ger> Hai :)
  138. # [17:06] <chaals> rrsagent, pointer?
  139. # [17:06] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-webapps-irc#T16-01-25-2
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  141. # [17:07] * anne wonders if Ms2ger is here
  142. # [17:07] <Ms2ger> anne, look over your shoulder, perhaps? :)
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  144. # [17:07] <anne> maybe if you're a woman and working here
  145. # [17:07] <anne> at the Marriott that is
  146. # [17:08] <dom> nice way to hide yourself!
  147. # [17:08] <ArtB> Scribe: Art
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  149. # [17:09] <ArtB> Present: Art
  150. # [17:09] <Ms2ger> Just you? :)
  151. # [17:10] <ArtB> Present+ Charles
  152. # [17:10] <chaals> Present+ chaals
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  154. # [17:10] <dom> Present+ Dom
  155. # [17:10] <heycam> Present+ Cameron
  156. # [17:10] <JonathanJ> Present+JonathanJ
  157. # [17:10] <lgombos> Present+ Laszlo_Gombos
  158. # [17:10] <Eliot_> present+ Eliot Graff
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  160. # [17:10] <weinig> Present+ Sam Weinig
  161. # [17:10] <jrossi2> Present+ Jacob Rossi
  162. # [17:10] <Eliot_> present+
  163. # [17:10] <anne> Present+ anne
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  165. # [17:11] <krisk> +present
  166. # [17:11] * Zakim wonders where present is
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  168. # [17:11] <Josh_Soref> Scribe: Josh_Soref
  169. # [17:11] <Josh_Soref> Present+ Josh_Soref
  170. # [17:11] <pererik> Present+ pererik
  171. # [17:11] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  172. # [17:11] <Ms2ger> Present+ Kris Krueger
  173. # [17:11] <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
  174. # [17:11] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  175. # [17:11] * smaug is muted
  176. # [17:12] <chaals> zakim, this is webapps
  177. # [17:12] <Zakim> chaals, this was already RWC_WAPI(WebAppsWG)12:00PM
  178. # [17:12] <Zakim> ok, chaals; that matches RWC_WAPI(WebAppsWG)12:00PM
  179. # [17:12] <JonathanJ> Agenda - http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/TPAC2011
  180. # [17:12] * dom if you want to check in at meeting, http://www.w3.org/2011/11/TPAC/live/locations/grand-ballroom-c
  181. # [17:12] <Josh_Soref> ArtB: the way we've run these big tpac meetings is to try to get as much flexibility to the topics in the meeting room
  182. # [17:12] * chaals understands what zakim meant now
  183. # [17:12] <Josh_Soref> ... we have a very large list of identified topics that we (i and the group) have identified
  184. # [17:12] <smaug> Zakim: [IPcaller] is Olli_Pettay
  185. # [17:12] <smaug> I think
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  187. # [17:12] <smaug> Zakim, [IPcaller] is Olli_Pettay
  188. # [17:12] <Zakim> +Olli_Pettay; got it
  189. # [17:13] <Josh_Soref> s/I think//
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  192. # [17:13] <Josh_Soref> ... given this, we can use some time to determine what to talk about tomorrow
  193. # [17:13] <Josh_Soref> ... it's hard for me to determine how much time the things i've allocated for today will take
  194. # [17:13] <Josh_Soref> ... it's possible we'll have holes, and we can either take breaks or pull in topics from tomorrow
  195. # [17:13] * Joins: magnus (magnus.ols@63.145.238.4)
  196. # [17:13] <Josh_Soref> ... we want to be flexible and be able to hash out big issues
  197. # [17:13] <magnus> present+ magnus
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  199. # [17:14] <Josh_Soref> ... let's start by looking at potential topics for tomorrow
  200. # [17:14] <Josh_Soref> ... is there a lot of interest on talking about these things, and if so, when do we want to talk about them
  201. # [17:14] * Joins: sangwhan (sangwhan@63.145.238.4)
  202. # [17:14] <Josh_Soref> ... what we did last year was count how many people are interested (show of hands)
  203. # [17:14] <Josh_Soref> ... testing - 11
  204. # [17:14] <shepazu> present+ shepazu
  205. # [17:14] <Josh_Soref> ... joint meetings w/ other WGs
  206. # [17:15] <Josh_Soref> ... -- that people want to shoehorn
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  208. # [17:15] <Josh_Soref> ... Joint Meetings - 0
  209. # [17:15] <SungOk_You> Present+ SungOk_You
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  211. # [17:15] <Josh_Soref> ... XBL2 ... has been a deliverable for 5 years or so... there was a thread, "is it dead?"
  212. # [17:15] <Josh_Soref> ... XBL2 - 12
  213. # [17:15] <Josh_Soref> s/12/13/
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  215. # [17:16] <dowan> Present+ Dowan
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  217. # [17:16] <Josh_Soref> ... DOM Mutations ...
  218. # [17:16] <Josh_Soref> [ not dominique mutations -- laughter ]
  219. # [17:16] <bryan> present+ Bryan_Sullivan
  220. # [17:16] <anne> dom.clone()
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  222. # [17:16] <Josh_Soref> ArtB: ... and there's the admn ...
  223. # [17:16] <Josh_Soref> ... DOM Mutations - 11
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  225. # [17:17] <JonathanJ> Present+ Jonathan_Jeon
  226. # [17:17] <Josh_Soref> ... XHR1 ... there was a notion (by anne ) should we give up on XHR1 and just spec XHR2
  227. # [17:17] <Josh_Soref> ... do we want a time slot for that?
  228. # [17:17] * Quits: aizu (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  229. # [17:17] <Josh_Soref> [ no one expresses interest ]
  230. # [17:17] <Josh_Soref> anne: not even me, i think we can just do it in a few minutes
  231. # [17:18] <Josh_Soref> ArtB: let's do it during the pubstatus time slot today
  232. # [17:18] <Josh_Soref> ... XHR1 - 0
  233. # [17:18] <chaals> Present+ Marcos, Robin
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  235. # [17:18] <Josh_Soref> ... DOM Parsing and Serialization
  236. # [17:18] * Ms2ger is not really interested
  237. # [17:18] <Josh_Soref> ArtB: do we want to formally add it to webapps when we recharter?
  238. # [17:18] <Josh_Soref> heycam: is there a slot for DOM4?
  239. # [17:19] * Quits: SamKim (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  240. # [17:19] <Josh_Soref> [ DOM4 would be in generic chartering ]
  241. # [17:19] <Josh_Soref> ... DOM Parsing and Serialization - 0
  242. # [17:19] <Josh_Soref> ArtB: is aryeh here?
  243. # [17:19] * Joins: wangsi-wei (wang@63.145.238.4)
  244. # [17:20] <Josh_Soref> ... HTML Editing API - 0
  245. # [17:20] <Josh_Soref> [ to be done in chartering ]
  246. # [17:20] <Josh_Soref> ArtB: is Ian F here?
  247. # [17:20] <Josh_Soref> ... Storage Quota - 0
  248. # [17:20] <Josh_Soref> ... API Design ...
  249. # [17:20] <chaals> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2011JulSep/1666.html -> Storage quota API
  250. # [17:21] <Josh_Soref> ... -- Robin had put together a rough outline
  251. # [17:21] <Ms2ger> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webapps/raw-file/b941da0491a8/api-design/Overview.html
  252. # [17:21] <Josh_Soref> ... API Design - 16
  253. # [17:21] * Quits: adrianba (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  254. # [17:22] <Josh_Soref> ... Stream API proposal (from Microsoft, that Adrian sent to the list)
  255. # [17:22] * Quits: R_Berkoff (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  256. # [17:22] * Joins: plh (plh@128.30.52.28)
  257. # [17:22] <Josh_Soref> ... -- and File API
  258. # [17:22] <Josh_Soref> ... Stream API and File API - 10
  259. # [17:22] <Ms2ger> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2011OctDec/0577.html?
  260. # [17:23] <Josh_Soref> ... Index DB - 5
  261. # [17:23] * heycam Josh_Soref www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/TPAC2011
  262. # [17:23] * plh rrsagent, generate minutes
  263. # [17:23] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-webapps-minutes.html plh
  264. # [17:23] <bryan> Proposal for discussion of server-sent events extension for connectionless push support: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2011OctDec/0577.html
  265. # [17:23] * Ms2ger RRSAgent, make minutes public
  266. # [17:23] <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', Ms2ger. Try /msg RRSAgent help
  267. # [17:23] * Ms2ger RRSAgent, make logs public
  268. # [17:23] * RRSAgent I have made the request, Ms2ger
  269. # [17:23] <Josh_Soref> /me thanks Ms2ger
  270. # [17:23] * Joins: darobin (robin@63.145.238.4)
  271. # [17:24] <Josh_Soref> s!/me thanks Ms2ger !!
  272. # [17:24] * Josh_Soref sighs
  273. # [17:24] * Ms2ger np :)
  274. # [17:24] <Josh_Soref> ArtB: proposal by bryan to add a slot for server sent event extensions
  275. # [17:24] <Josh_Soref> ... Server Sent Event Extensions - 4
  276. # [17:24] * Joins: bernd (57981c2a@64.62.228.82)
  277. # [17:25] <chaals> rrsagent, draft minutes
  278. # [17:25] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-webapps-minutes.html chaals
  279. # [17:25] * Parts: bernd (57981c2a@64.62.228.82)
  280. # [17:25] <Josh_Soref> s/Zakim: [IPcaller] is Olli_Pettay//
  281. # [17:26] <Josh_Soref> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  282. # [17:26] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-webapps-minutes.html Josh_Soref
  283. # [17:27] * Joins: Marcos (Adium@63.145.238.4)
  284. # [17:27] * Josh_Soref plh, where's the actual scribe.pl doc?
  285. # [17:27] <Josh_Soref> [ Scribe takes a break while ArtB resequences things on screen unsaved in Wiki TPAC2011 ]
  286. # [17:27] * Ms2ger http://dev.w3.org/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
  287. # [17:28] * Quits: SungOk_You (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  288. # [17:28] <Josh_Soref> s|/me thanks Ms2ger ||
  289. # [17:28] <Josh_Soref> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  290. # [17:28] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-webapps-minutes.html Josh_Soref
  291. # [17:28] <Josh_Soref> s|!/me thanks Ms2ger !!||
  292. # [17:28] <Josh_Soref> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  293. # [17:28] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-webapps-minutes.html Josh_Soref
  294. # [17:28] <Ms2ger> s/s!!!//
  295. # [17:28] * Quits: dcooney (dominicc@63.145.238.4) (Client exited)
  296. # [17:29] * Joins: dcooney (dominicc@216.239.45.130)
  297. # [17:29] <Josh_Soref> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  298. # [17:29] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-webapps-minutes.html Josh_Soref
  299. # [17:29] * Josh_Soref grumbles
  300. # [17:29] * Josh_Soref ... the docs claim ||| work
  301. # [17:29] <Josh_Soref> s/me thanks Ms2ger//
  302. # [17:29] <Josh_Soref> s/me thanks Ms2ger//
  303. # [17:29] <Josh_Soref> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  304. # [17:29] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-webapps-minutes.html Josh_Soref
  305. # [17:30] * Ms2ger I'll fix it ;)
  306. # [17:30] * Josh_Soref gives up
  307. # [17:30] * Josh_Soref thanks Ms2ger
  308. # [17:30] <Ms2ger> s|!/ !!||
  309. # [17:30] <Josh_Soref> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  310. # [17:30] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-webapps-minutes.html Josh_Soref
  311. # [17:30] <Ms2ger> s/s|||//
  312. # [17:30] <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  313. # [17:30] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-webapps-minutes.html Ms2ger
  314. # [17:30] * Joins: dino (dino@63.145.238.4)
  315. # [17:31] * Marcos dino??? where????
  316. # [17:31] * Josh_Soref vino?
  317. # [17:31] * Joins: aizu (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  318. # [17:31] * dino Marcos, here!!!!
  319. # [17:31] * Marcos oh!!! there!!!
  320. # [17:32] * Joins: nvbalaji (3f91ee04@207.192.75.252)
  321. # [17:32] * dom coffee break can be at any time between 10am and 11am according to http://www.w3.org:8000/2011/11/TPAC/
  322. # [17:32] <Josh_Soref> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  323. # [17:32] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-webapps-minutes.html Josh_Soref
  324. # [17:32] * Quits: plh (plh@128.30.52.28) (Client exited)
  325. # [17:32] * Josh_Soref Ms2ger there's one / left
  326. # [17:33] <Ms2ger> s|/||
  327. # [17:33] <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  328. # [17:33] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-webapps-minutes.html Ms2ger
  329. # [17:33] * Joins: jdaggett_ (jdaggett@63.145.238.4)
  330. # [17:33] <Josh_Soref> [ ArtB commits Schedule to Wiki -- http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/TPAC2011#Agenda_Monday.2C_October_31 ]
  331. # [17:33] <Josh_Soref> anne: I need to leave, but we should talk about CORS
  332. # [17:34] <Josh_Soref> ArtB: CORS has been important... so important that a WG has been made for it
  333. # [17:34] <Ms2ger> Topic: Spec status and plans
  334. # [17:34] <Josh_Soref> ... Web Application Security Working Group
  335. # [17:35] * Josh_Soref wonders if i// works for Topic:
  336. # [17:35] * Ms2ger oops :)
  337. # [17:36] * Marcos thinks Ms2ger should be added to the agenda
  338. # [17:36] <Josh_Soref> [ Scribe takes a break while anne outlines the history of the creation of that group with a dose of skepticism ]
  339. # [17:36] * Ms2ger Hah
  340. # [17:36] * chaals suspects it does Josh_Soref
  341. # [17:37] <chaals> Josh: There are a couple of community groups created to edit a spec, so maybe stuff gets done in community groups and webapps gets used to handle formal publishing for it.
  342. # [17:37] <Josh_Soref> s/Josh/Josh_Soref/
  343. # [17:38] * Joins: MoZ (MoZ@63.145.238.4)
  344. # [17:39] <Josh_Soref> [ ArtB reviews pub status ]
  345. # [17:40] <Josh_Soref> ArtB: do we need to add an Errata to DOM Core?
  346. # [17:40] <Josh_Soref> [ Chatter about Element Traversal and DOM4 ]
  347. # [17:40] <Marcos> +nvbalaji
  348. # [17:40] * Zakim wonders where nvbalaji is
  349. # [17:41] <Josh_Soref> DRAFT ACTION: Barstow work with Doug
  350. # [17:41] <anne> http://www.w3.org/TR/web-forms-2/
  351. # [17:41] <anne> ^ same thing
  352. # [17:41] * Marcos Josh_Soref: you should probably clarify that action
  353. # [17:41] * Josh_Soref it's a draft non action
  354. # [17:41] <chaals> AvK/Shepazu: Element traversal to point towards DOM4 as where the future work gets done (e.g. errata)
  355. # [17:41] * Josh_Soref was waiting for the end of the action
  356. # [17:42] * Josh_Soref chaals : i'm assuming you'll write the action
  357. # [17:42] <chaals> ACTION: Art to talk to Doug about the traversal from Element Traversal to DOM4
  358. # [17:42] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  359. # [17:42] * RRSAgent records action 1
  360. # [17:42] <trackbot> Created ACTION-628 - Talk to Doug about the traversal from Element Traversal to DOM4 [on Arthur Barstow - due 2011-11-07].
  361. # [17:42] <Josh_Soref> Eric: File APIs and Directory
  362. # [17:43] <Josh_Soref> ... there are some bigger and smaller changes coming
  363. # [17:43] <Josh_Soref> ... implementation status is not up to date
  364. # [17:43] <Josh_Soref> ... chrome only, but it's more implemented
  365. # [17:43] <Josh_Soref> ArtB: can any other implementers speak about Writer and Directories and systems?
  366. # [17:43] <Josh_Soref> chaals: we have an implementation because we internally use it
  367. # [17:44] <Josh_Soref> ... we want to get it done
  368. # [17:44] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@63.145.238.4)
  369. # [17:44] <Josh_Soref> ... right now we ship our own
  370. # [17:44] <smaug> Isn't it still unclear whether we need the whole Directories stuff
  371. # [17:44] <Josh_Soref> ... we expect it to change
  372. # [17:44] <smaug> (ah, sicking is talking)
  373. # [17:44] <Josh_Soref> jonas: we have plans
  374. # [17:44] <Josh_Soref> macie: apple has plans
  375. # [17:44] <Ms2ger> Present+ Jonas Sicking
  376. # [17:45] <Josh_Soref> anne: I think apple's position is more in line with the last two
  377. # [17:45] * Joins: adrianba (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  378. # [17:45] <Josh_Soref> s/Jonas Sicking/Jonas_Sicking/
  379. # [17:45] <weinig> Josh_Soref: I'm not macie, Sam Weinig
  380. # [17:45] <Josh_Soref> eric: File Saver ...
  381. # [17:46] <Josh_Soref> s/macie/weinig/
  382. # [17:46] * Joins: dglazkov (u4270@88.198.6.68)
  383. # [17:46] <Josh_Soref> s/Josh_Soref: I'm not macie, Sam Weinig//
  384. # [17:46] * Josh_Soref sorry
  385. # [17:46] <weinig> Josh_Soref: it's ok
  386. # [17:46] <Josh_Soref> s/Josh_Soref: it's ok//
  387. # [17:46] <Josh_Soref> ArtB: From Origin header ...
  388. # [17:46] <Josh_Soref> ... what's the implementation status?
  389. # [17:46] <Josh_Soref> anne: I don't think anyone has implemented it
  390. # [17:47] <Josh_Soref> ArtB: Progress Events ...
  391. # [17:47] <Josh_Soref> anne: I think the main thing blocking implementations is Constructor
  392. # [17:47] <Josh_Soref> ... I guess WebKit has that
  393. # [17:47] * Joins: noriya (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  394. # [17:48] <Josh_Soref> anne: it's fairly simple (just properties/methods) since dispatch is covered in other specs
  395. # [17:48] * Joins: slightlyoff (u1768@88.198.6.68)
  396. # [17:48] <Josh_Soref> jonas: we haven't started on constructors, since it's non trivial
  397. # [17:48] * smaug will implement ctors after mutationobserver
  398. # [17:48] <Josh_Soref> ... probably somewhat soon, but next year
  399. # [17:48] <Josh_Soref> anne: similar for us
  400. # [17:48] <Josh_Soref> ... it's easier but not a priority
  401. # [17:48] <Josh_Soref> ArtB: Selectors
  402. # [17:49] * Joins: morrita (Adium@63.145.238.4)
  403. # [17:49] <Josh_Soref> ... it's blocked by WebIDL
  404. # [17:49] <Josh_Soref> Josh_Soref: is WebIDL going to be a topic
  405. # [17:49] <Josh_Soref> ArtB: there's a slot available and heycam is sitting next to you :)
  406. # [17:50] <Josh_Soref> ArtB: Sever Sent Events
  407. # [17:50] <Ms2ger> s/Sever/Server/
  408. # [17:50] <Josh_Soref> ... when I left Boston, we were down to 0 bugs
  409. # [17:50] <Josh_Soref> anne: it doesn't cover Cross Origin
  410. # [17:50] <Josh_Soref> ... and anne-xxx-something-else
  411. # [17:51] <Josh_Soref> ... It's going to get another argument in the constructor to cover cross origin
  412. # [17:51] * Josh_Soref Ms2ger can you fix the xxx or get anne to?
  413. # [17:51] * Joins: sicking (chatzilla@63.145.238.4)
  414. # [17:51] * Ms2ger hasn't heard
  415. # [17:51] <Josh_Soref> ArtB: the main thing is that changes are coming, so it doesn't make sense to go to LC
  416. # [17:51] <chaals> s/and anne-xxx-something-else//
  417. # [17:51] * dom was it somethinga bout credentials exchange?
  418. # [17:51] * Josh_Soref thought it was
  419. # [17:51] * Josh_Soref maybe
  420. # [17:51] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  421. # [17:51] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
  422. # [17:51] <Josh_Soref> ArtB: WebIDL
  423. # [17:52] <Josh_Soref> ... it had LC2
  424. # [17:52] <chaals> s/to cover cross cross origin/to cover cross origin and opting in to credentials exchange/
  425. # [17:52] <Josh_Soref> heycam: there are some non controversial issues
  426. # [17:53] * Quits: noriya (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  427. # [17:53] <Josh_Soref> ... and then a question of whether it should be less non JS specific
  428. # [17:53] * Joins: jcantera (Adium@63.145.238.4)
  429. # [17:53] <Josh_Soref> ArtB: we have a slot for tomorrow at 4
  430. # [17:53] <anne> EventSource will get the same cross-origin story as XMLHttpRequest basically
  431. # [17:53] <anne> is what I said
  432. # [17:53] <anne> and everyone is on board, change just needs to be made (well everyone that voiced an opinion)
  433. # [17:53] <Josh_Soref> ArtB: PostMessage
  434. # [17:53] * Quits: lgombos (Laszlo@63.145.238.4) (Quit: Leaving)
  435. # [17:54] <Josh_Soref> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  436. # [17:54] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-webapps-minutes.html Josh_Soref
  437. # [17:55] * Josh_Soref chaals your s/// is in the minutes
  438. # [17:55] * Joins: R_Berkoff (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  439. # [17:55] <Josh_Soref> ArtB: Web Workers
  440. # [17:55] <Ms2ger> s|s/Josh_Soref: I'm not macie, Sam Weinig//||
  441. # [17:55] <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  442. # [17:55] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-webapps-minutes.html Ms2ger
  443. # [17:55] * Quits: adrianba (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  444. # [17:56] * Quits: anne (annevk@63.145.238.4) (Quit: anne)
  445. # [17:56] * Josh_Soref anne which did you say was done?
  446. # [17:56] * Joins: darin (darin@216.239.45.130)
  447. # [17:57] <Josh_Soref> ArtB: Marcos: widgets...?
  448. # [17:57] <Josh_Soref> ... widget interface is blocked by webidl and webstorage
  449. # [17:57] <Josh_Soref> ... i think W3 Team has agreed on changes to pub reqs re:HTML5
  450. # [17:58] <Josh_Soref> ... update had been stalled ... PAG has been active recently, and there's reason to believe that the PAG will conclude relatively soon
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  453. # [17:59] <Josh_Soref> [ Marcos gives a summary ]
  454. # [17:59] <Josh_Soref> dom: is there an eta for the report?
  455. # [18:00] <Josh_Soref> Marcos: shortly after TPAC, it needs a bit of clean up
  456. # [18:00] <Josh_Soref> chaals: there is a draft
  457. # [18:00] * Quits: bryan (blsaws@63.145.238.4) (Client exited)
  458. # [18:00] <Josh_Soref> ArtB: DigSig (for Widgets)
  459. # [18:00] * dom Member-only draft PAG report http://www.w3.org/2009/11/widgets-pag/pagreport.html
  460. # [18:00] <Josh_Soref> ... that spec is in PR, it's blocked by XML Sec PAG
  461. # [18:00] <Josh_Soref> ... Widget URI moved back to WD in September
  462. # [18:00] <Josh_Soref> Marcos: trying to align it with File API... responding as a fake http server
  463. # [18:01] <Josh_Soref> ... hopefully it'll have fairly similar behavior
  464. # [18:01] <Josh_Soref> ... and move to LC
  465. # [18:01] * Quits: lgombos (Laszlo@63.145.238.4) (Quit: Leaving)
  466. # [18:01] <Josh_Soref> ArtB: View Mode media feature is in PR
  467. # [18:01] <Josh_Soref> ... and will move to Rec when Media Queries advances to PR
  468. # [18:02] <Josh_Soref> ... Widget Updates
  469. # [18:03] <Josh_Soref> s/update had/Warp had/
  470. # [18:03] <Josh_Soref> s/Warp/WARP/
  471. # [18:03] <Josh_Soref> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  472. # [18:03] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-webapps-minutes.html Josh_Soref
  473. # [18:03] * Josh_Soref Marcos please check the minutes for the last blob
  474. # [18:03] * Marcos checks
  475. # [18:03] * dom actually, coffee break can start at 10am
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  479. # [18:04] * Josh_Soref chaals : the minutes has: <chaals> s/to cover cross cross origin/to cover cross origin and opting in to credentials exchange/
  480. # [18:04] * Quits: morrita (Adium@63.145.238.4) (Quit: Leaving.)
  481. # [18:04] * Josh_Soref can you indicate what you want done so Ms2ger can do it?
  482. # [18:05] * Ms2ger waves
  483. # [18:05] <Josh_Soref> [ Break until 10:30a ]
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  487. # [18:07] <chaals> rrsagent, draft minutes
  488. # [18:07] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-webapps-minutes.html chaals
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  499. # [18:10] <Zakim> -Olli_Pettay
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  580. # [18:48] * heycam wonders if we were resuming at 10:30 or 11
  581. # [18:49] <Ms2ger> 10:30
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  605. # [18:56] <ihilerio> Present+ israelh
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  610. # [18:58] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
  611. # [18:59] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
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  615. # [19:05] * Ruinan slaps trackbot around a bit with a large fishbot
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  621. # [19:06] <Ms2ger> Not 11 either, apparently
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  624. # [19:08] * heycam Ms2ger people still milling and chatting, we'll be waiting until the Fonts/WebAppsSec/CSS WGs arrive I imagine
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  626. # [19:08] * Ms2ger CSSWG has been breaking for 15 minutes :)
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  632. # [19:09] * Josh_Soref we're about to resume
  633. # [19:09] <Josh_Soref> [ We're about to resume ]
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  636. # [19:09] <Josh_Soref> ArtB: we have 3 or 4 WGs here
  637. # [19:10] <Josh_Soref> ... ask that observers make room around the table for WG members
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  646. # [19:11] <Josh_Soref> [ ArtB introduces ]
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  649. # [19:11] <dbaron> [joint meeting of Web Apps, Web App Security, Web Fonts, and CSS]
  650. # [19:11] * Josh_Soref WebApps, CSS, Fonts,
  651. # [19:11] * Joins: chaals (chaals@63.145.238.4)
  652. # [19:11] * Josh_Soref thanks dbaron
  653. # [19:11] <Josh_Soref> Topic: CORS
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  655. # [19:12] <chaals> rrsagent, draft minutes
  656. # [19:12] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-webapps-minutes.html chaals
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  658. # [19:12] <Josh_Soref> [ ArtB introduces the groups who have dependencies on CORS ]
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  661. # [19:12] <Josh_Soref> vladimir: It started with the development of the Web Open Font Spec
  662. # [19:12] <Josh_Soref> ... when CORS was selected
  663. # [19:12] <Josh_Soref> ... but the comment was made that it isn't specific to Web Font
  664. # [19:13] <Josh_Soref> ... and it was suggested to make the Same Origin specification be made on a link specific basis
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  668. # [19:13] <Josh_Soref> s/CORS was selected/same origin was selected/
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  670. # [19:13] <Josh_Soref> ... The requirement was marked as at-risk
  671. # [19:13] <Josh_Soref> ... and moved toward CSS
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  674. # [19:14] * Josh_Soref is confused by Same/From
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  676. # [19:14] <anne> same-origin policy
  677. # [19:14] * Joins: wangsi-wei (wang@63.145.238.4)
  678. # [19:14] <anne> From-Origin header
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  685. # [19:14] <ArtB> From-Origin spec: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/from-origin/raw-file/tip/Overview.html
  686. # [19:14] <Josh_Soref> ... CSS needs ot decide which to use to relax the restriction
  687. # [19:14] <Josh_Soref> jdaggett_: I'm the editor of the CSS Fonts Spec
  688. # [19:15] * Quits: Eliot (IceChat77@63.145.238.4) (Quit: Always try to be modest, and be proud about it!)
  689. # [19:15] <Josh_Soref> ... the spec today says fonts are same-origin by default with CORS to relax it
  690. # [19:15] <Josh_Soref> ... the question is what's the mechanism
  691. # [19:15] <Josh_Soref> ... should it be From-Origin
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  693. # [19:15] <Josh_Soref> ... and people who put a font on their server
  694. # [19:15] <Josh_Soref> ... should people use CORS to relax it?
  695. # [19:15] * ArtB wonders if Anne is here?
  696. # [19:15] <Josh_Soref> ... there's a fundamental issu
  697. # [19:15] * chaals says to artb yes
  698. # [19:15] <Josh_Soref> s/issu/issue/
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  700. # [19:16] <sangwhan> artb: yes
  701. # [19:16] <Josh_Soref> ... From-Origin/CORS
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  703. # [19:16] <Josh_Soref> s/artb: yes//
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  705. # [19:16] <Josh_Soref> jdaggett_: If I say "allow all origins" (with CORS) and "from-origin same"
  706. # [19:16] <Josh_Soref> ... how do they mesh together?
  707. # [19:16] <Josh_Soref> anne: From-Origin would Win
  708. # [19:16] <tcelik> greetings (CSSWG member, representative from Mozilla Foundation).
  709. # [19:16] <Josh_Soref> ... From-Origin integrates with the fetch algorithm
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  711. # [19:17] * Ms2ger waves at CSS people
  712. # [19:17] <Josh_Soref> tab: From- would stop it first
  713. # [19:17] <Josh_Soref> anne: yes, CORS would just see a fault and couldn't do anything to unfault it
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  715. # [19:17] <Josh_Soref> anne: everything that fetches should be defined in terms of the fetch algoritm
  716. # [19:17] * Quits: hayato (hayato@63.145.238.4) (Quit: hayato)
  717. # [19:18] <Josh_Soref> ... that's a bug in the fonts spec, it doesn't reference the fetch algorithm
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  720. # [19:18] <Josh_Soref> clilly: could you provide text?
  721. # [19:18] <heycam> s/clilly/clilley/
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  724. # [19:19] <Josh_Soref> anne: the CORS specification requires specific invocation of the request algorithm
  725. # [19:19] * sangwhan slaps self, for spamming minutes (sorry josh)
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  728. # [19:19] <Josh_Soref> jdaggett_: so any spec with a same-origin restriction needs to have specific text?
  729. # [19:19] <Josh_Soref> anne: yes
  730. # [19:19] <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  731. # [19:19] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-webapps-minutes.html Ms2ger
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  733. # [19:20] <Josh_Soref> clilley: the host language has to invoke the fetch algorithm in order to trigger it
  734. # [19:20] <Josh_Soref> anne: the specification [CORS] specifically lists the text to trigger invocation
  735. # [19:20] <Ms2ger> s/needs ot/needs to/
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  741. # [19:20] <Josh_Soref> shepazu: Maybe we should have a FAQ somewhere for how to integration
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  743. # [19:20] <Josh_Soref> weinig: Section 8 of CORS has this text
  744. # [19:20] <ArtB> http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/access-control/
  745. # [19:21] <Josh_Soref> Marcos: do you have specs that use it?
  746. # [19:21] <chaals> http://www.w3.org/TR/cors/#cors-api-specification-advice -> advice on using CORS in other specs
  747. # [19:21] <Josh_Soref> anne: HTML and XHR
  748. # [19:21] <dbaron> (should we move back to the main topic?)
  749. # [19:21] <Josh_Soref> anne: it is quite intricate
  750. # [19:21] * Josh_Soref dbaron : ask ArtB
  751. # [19:21] * glazou dbaron speak up!
  752. # [19:21] <Josh_Soref> ... since there are credentials and other things
  753. # [19:21] * chaals thinks we should...
  754. # [19:22] <chaals> q+ tab
  755. # [19:22] * Zakim sees tab on the speaker queue
  756. # [19:22] <Josh_Soref> ... if you have a model that sends credentials by default
  757. # [19:22] <glazou> ArtB: let's focus back on main topic please
  758. # [19:22] <Josh_Soref> ... and you want to do something else
  759. # [19:22] <Josh_Soref> ... XHR uses a withCredentials attribute
  760. # [19:22] <Josh_Soref> ... HTMLxxx has something else
  761. # [19:22] * dino remembers when this group only had about 8 members. Now close to 100 people in the room (with joint meetings).
  762. # [19:22] <Josh_Soref> jdaggett_: that isn't the most important topic
  763. # [19:22] <chaals> q+ sicking
  764. # [19:22] * Zakim sees tab, sicking on the speaker queue
  765. # [19:23] <chaals> ack tab
  766. # [19:23] * Zakim sees sicking on the speaker queue
  767. # [19:23] <Josh_Soref> tab: you have a paragraph that says anyone wanting to use CORS
  768. # [19:23] <Josh_Soref> ... must specifically reference the algorithm and set particular variables
  769. # [19:23] <Josh_Soref> ... what would be helpful is specific example text
  770. # [19:23] <Josh_Soref> ACTION tab to write proposed text
  771. # [19:23] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  772. # [19:23] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - tab
  773. # [19:24] <Josh_Soref> anne: we have two specifications which do things differently because it's rather different for different environments
  774. # [19:24] <chaals> q+ marcos
  775. # [19:24] * Zakim sees sicking, marcos on the speaker queue
  776. # [19:24] * Josh_Soref Ms2ger please get it actioned to tab
  777. # [19:24] * Quits: DKA (dka@63.145.238.4) (Quit: DKA)
  778. # [19:24] <Josh_Soref> q?
  779. # [19:24] * Zakim sees sicking, marcos on the speaker queue
  780. # [19:25] <Josh_Soref> ack sicking
  781. # [19:25] * Zakim sees marcos on the speaker queue
  782. # [19:25] <chaals> ack sicking
  783. # [19:25] * Zakim sees marcos on the speaker queue
  784. # [19:25] <Marcos> ack marcos
  785. # [19:25] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  786. # [19:25] <Josh_Soref> sicking: one of the issues specifically about fonts
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  789. # [19:25] * Ms2ger Josh_Soref, put it in the CSSWG tracker :)
  790. # [19:25] <Josh_Soref> ... is the whole thing about whether it makes sense about embedable
  791. # [19:25] <Josh_Soref> ... and there's the question about exposing the resource to the embedder
  792. # [19:25] <Josh_Soref> ... Can we skip the embedding and just make it readable to the world
  793. # [19:26] <Josh_Soref> ... Any time we've tried to expose a resource without letting the page see the resource, we've failed
  794. # [19:26] <Josh_Soref> ... e.g. with images we leaked image dimensions to the web page
  795. # [19:26] * Joins: mjs (mjs@63.145.238.4)
  796. # [19:26] <Josh_Soref> ... with WebGL, we accidentally leaked pixel data through a timing channel
  797. # [19:26] <Josh_Soref> ... it's possible you can leak other data from transparency
  798. # [19:27] <Josh_Soref> ... with fonts it's even more likely since you can get information from timing
  799. # [19:27] <dbaron> q+
  800. # [19:27] * Zakim sees dbaron on the speaker queue
  801. # [19:27] * Quits: darin (darin@63.145.238.4) (Ping timeout)
  802. # [19:27] <chaals> q+ florian
  803. # [19:27] * Zakim sees dbaron, florian on the speaker queue
  804. # [19:27] <chaals> q+ chrisL
  805. # [19:27] * Zakim sees dbaron, florian, chrisL on the speaker queue
  806. # [19:27] <Josh_Soref> ... can we say that fonts are inherently non private and we can share with anyone on the web?
  807. # [19:27] <Josh_Soref> q?
  808. # [19:27] * Zakim sees dbaron, florian, chrisL on the speaker queue
  809. # [19:27] <Josh_Soref> ack dbaron
  810. # [19:27] * Zakim sees florian, chrisL on the speaker queue
  811. # [19:27] <chaals> ack florian
  812. # [19:27] * Zakim sees chrisL on the speaker queue
  813. # [19:28] <Josh_Soref> florian: the answer is that in general fonts do not contain private data
  814. # [19:28] * Joins: sriramyadavalli (sriramyada@63.145.238.4)
  815. # [19:28] <Josh_Soref> ... it seems that people believe that in some edge cases they do
  816. # [19:28] * Quits: florian (florianr@63.145.238.4) (Ping timeout)
  817. # [19:28] * Joins: morrita (Adium@63.145.238.4)
  818. # [19:29] <chaals> q+ dbaron
  819. # [19:29] * Zakim sees chrisL, dbaron on the speaker queue
  820. # [19:29] <Josh_Soref> ... the font itself doesn't contain private data, but the presence does indicate that the product exists
  821. # [19:29] <tcelik> q+ tabatkins
  822. # [19:29] * Zakim sees chrisL, dbaron, tabatkins on the speaker queue
  823. # [19:29] <Josh_Soref> ... it doesn't seem necessary to restrict by default
  824. # [19:29] <Josh_Soref> clilley: i agree in general
  825. # [19:29] <Josh_Soref> ... a WOFF font can contain licensee and licensor
  826. # [19:29] <Josh_Soref> ... it's not quite private
  827. # [19:29] <Josh_Soref> ... but that's leakable
  828. # [19:29] <Josh_Soref> ... i believe that form-origin is appropriate
  829. # [19:29] <Josh_Soref> ack dbaron
  830. # [19:29] * Zakim sees chrisL, tabatkins on the speaker queue
  831. # [19:29] <chaals> q+ sam
  832. # [19:29] * Zakim sees chrisL, tabatkins, sam on the speaker queue
  833. # [19:29] <Josh_Soref> dbaron: one other case with private data
  834. # [19:29] <Josh_Soref> ... is font-subset
  835. # [19:29] <Josh_Soref> ... which is common with EOT
  836. # [19:30] <Josh_Soref> ... and it's likely we'll get that for WOFF
  837. # [19:30] * Joins: nicksoba (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  838. # [19:30] <sicking> q+
  839. # [19:30] * Zakim sees chrisL, tabatkins, sam, sicking on the speaker queue
  840. # [19:30] <Josh_Soref> ... and if you subset for WOFF specifically to a page
  841. # [19:30] <chaals> ack chr
  842. # [19:30] * Zakim sees tabatkins, sam, sicking on the speaker queue
  843. # [19:30] <Josh_Soref> ... then you leak the contents of the page
  844. # [19:30] <chaals> ack tab
  845. # [19:30] * Zakim sees sam, sicking on the speaker queue
  846. # [19:30] * Joins: DKA (dka@63.145.238.4)
  847. # [19:30] <Josh_Soref> tab: the distinction on the table
  848. # [19:30] <Josh_Soref> ... is whether an embedded resource
  849. # [19:31] <Josh_Soref> ... embedding-vs-reading
  850. # [19:31] <Josh_Soref> dbaron: the argument jonas made is that every time we tried to make that distinction, we've failed
  851. # [19:31] <Josh_Soref> tab: right, can we say "embedding means reading"
  852. # [19:31] * Joins: nicksoba_ (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  853. # [19:31] <mjs> q+
  854. # [19:31] * Zakim sees sam, sicking, mjs on the speaker queue
  855. # [19:31] * Joins: YUMA (YUMA@63.145.238.4)
  856. # [19:31] <chaals> q+ johnd
  857. # [19:31] * Zakim sees sam, sicking, mjs, johnd on the speaker queue
  858. # [19:31] * Joins: R_Berkoff (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  859. # [19:31] <Josh_Soref> ... because we've failed each and every time we've tried
  860. # [19:31] <sicking> q-
  861. # [19:31] <chaals> ack sam
  862. # [19:31] * Zakim sees sam, mjs, johnd on the speaker queue
  863. # [19:31] * Zakim sees mjs, johnd on the speaker queue
  864. # [19:31] <Josh_Soref> weinig: leaking licensee/licensors...
  865. # [19:32] <Josh_Soref> ... while i understand that we leak some info
  866. # [19:32] <Josh_Soref> ... how would we leak licensee/licensor?
  867. # [19:32] <Josh_Soref> clilley: that only happens if you don't make the distinction between reading and embedding
  868. # [19:32] <Josh_Soref> ... there is an extension for firefox that enables that through an internal api
  869. # [19:32] <Josh_Soref> weinig: is that available to webcontent?
  870. # [19:33] * Quits: nicksoba (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  871. # [19:33] <Josh_Soref> clilley: it isn't available to web content (only chrome)
  872. # [19:33] <sicking> q+
  873. # [19:33] * Zakim sees mjs, johnd, sicking on the speaker queue
  874. # [19:33] <Josh_Soref> weinig: you obviously could mask some things
  875. # [19:33] <Josh_Soref> ... the non visual elements are easily maskable
  876. # [19:33] * Quits: morrita (Adium@63.145.238.4) (Quit: Leaving.)
  877. # [19:33] <Josh_Soref> vladimir: the way i understand tab's argument
  878. # [19:33] <Josh_Soref> ... is that each time we make the distinction between embedding/reading
  879. # [19:34] <Josh_Soref> ... is that it's easier to not do it
  880. # [19:34] <Josh_Soref> ... i don't see why embedding-origin is the simple approach
  881. # [19:34] <Josh_Soref> q?
  882. # [19:34] * Zakim sees mjs, johnd, sicking on the speaker queue
  883. # [19:34] <Josh_Soref> ack mjs
  884. # [19:34] * Zakim sees johnd, sicking on the speaker queue
  885. # [19:34] <chaals> ack mj
  886. # [19:34] * Zakim sees johnd, sicking on the speaker queue
  887. # [19:34] <Josh_Soref> mjs: a couple of people have claimed that reading/embedding distinctions have always failed
  888. # [19:34] <Josh_Soref> ... i bet none of you would make all images world readable
  889. # [19:34] <Josh_Soref> ... the fact is that there is still a distinction
  890. # [19:35] <Josh_Soref> ... when it's too easy, we usually consider it a security bug
  891. # [19:35] <Josh_Soref> ... and try to fix it
  892. # [19:35] <Josh_Soref> ... it's true that it's hard to maintain that distinction
  893. # [19:35] <Josh_Soref> ... i think people are wrongly trying to make the claim that there is no distinction
  894. # [19:35] <chaals> q+ chrisl
  895. # [19:35] * Zakim sees johnd, sicking, chrisl on the speaker queue
  896. # [19:35] <Josh_Soref> ack jdaggett_
  897. # [19:35] * Zakim sees johnd, sicking, chrisl on the speaker queue
  898. # [19:35] <anne> and also for new ones such as video
  899. # [19:35] <chaals> ack j
  900. # [19:35] * Zakim sees sicking, chrisl on the speaker queue
  901. # [19:35] * Joins: chsiao (chatzilla@63.145.238.4)
  902. # [19:35] <Josh_Soref> jdaggett_: we're not in the same case as images
  903. # [19:35] <Josh_Soref> ... this is a new resource time
  904. # [19:35] * Quits: stearns (anonymous@63.145.238.4) (Ping timeout)
  905. # [19:35] <Josh_Soref> s/time/type/
  906. # [19:35] <Josh_Soref> ... we can define a behavior
  907. # [19:36] <Josh_Soref> ... with fonts, there are any number of ways
  908. # [19:36] * Joins: darin (darin@216.239.45.130)
  909. # [19:36] <Josh_Soref> ... you can't do the type of tainting with canvas
  910. # [19:36] * Joins: arronei (arronei@63.145.238.4)
  911. # [19:36] <Josh_Soref> ... with fonts, you can infer character set, or metrics, or ...
  912. # [19:36] <Josh_Soref> ... trying to analyze all of the apis is too hard
  913. # [19:36] <Josh_Soref> ... back to what jonas said
  914. # [19:36] <Josh_Soref> ... if we define that all cases are readable
  915. # [19:36] * Joins: wayne_carr (86868b4a@78.129.202.38)
  916. # [19:36] <Josh_Soref> ... maybe we make it by default origin restriction
  917. # [19:36] <Josh_Soref> q?
  918. # [19:36] * Zakim sees sicking, chrisl on the speaker queue
  919. # [19:37] <Josh_Soref> ack chr
  920. # [19:37] * Zakim sees sicking on the speaker queue
  921. # [19:37] <Josh_Soref> clilley: the claim is made that for fonts that we don't make the distinction for embedding-reading
  922. # [19:37] <Josh_Soref> dbaron: i probably made the claim too strongly
  923. # [19:37] * Quits: nicksoba_ (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  924. # [19:37] <chaals> ack sicking
  925. # [19:37] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  926. # [19:37] <Josh_Soref> clilley: and i interpreted this for fonts that we shouldn't be doing it
  927. # [19:37] <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  928. # [19:37] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-webapps-minutes.html Ms2ger
  929. # [19:38] <Josh_Soref> sicking: for browser vendors, the pain is addressing security issues
  930. # [19:38] * Joins: nicksoba (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  931. # [19:38] <Josh_Soref> ... instead of working on features
  932. # [19:38] <dbaron> dbaron: ... and instead of saying it always failed, should have said it either always failed or led to lots of pain trying to prevent it from failing
  933. # [19:38] <Josh_Soref> ... for images, we now have an api where we have to add this tainting thing
  934. # [19:38] <Josh_Soref> ... if we had CORS on images from the beginning
  935. # [19:38] <Josh_Soref> ... we'd probably have more mashupable
  936. # [19:38] * dino hears the term "mashupable" for the first time
  937. # [19:38] <Josh_Soref> ... we don't because 3rd parties can't get this stuff easily
  938. # [19:39] <Josh_Soref> ... we won't expose license info for similar reasons
  939. # [19:39] * glazou thinks Josh_Soref needs NMI :-)
  940. # [19:40] <Josh_Soref> sicking: if sites can opt into with shared by default
  941. # [19:40] <Josh_Soref> s/... for images/sicking: for images/
  942. # [19:40] <Josh_Soref> ... if people have to make a decision by adding cors headers
  943. # [19:40] <Josh_Soref> ... then they'll actively make the decision
  944. # [19:40] <Josh_Soref> ... then they'll go through a security review
  945. # [19:41] <Josh_Soref> ... if they don't have to go through a security review (putting up CORS), they won't think about it
  946. # [19:41] <Josh_Soref> q?
  947. # [19:41] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  948. # [19:41] <Josh_Soref> ArtB: anne are you coming up with additional constraints?
  949. # [19:41] <Josh_Soref> ... is this more UC clarification?
  950. # [19:41] <chaals> q+ chrisl
  951. # [19:41] * Zakim sees chrisl on the speaker queue
  952. # [19:41] <Josh_Soref> anne: there's nothing that needs to be changed in CORS or Form-Origin
  953. # [19:41] <Ms2ger> s/Form-Origin/From-Origin/
  954. # [19:41] <Josh_Soref> ... the question is if Fonts should work like Images or XHR
  955. # [19:42] <Josh_Soref> ... and i stopped caring a long time ago
  956. # [19:42] <Josh_Soref> tab: so john, make a decision
  957. # [19:42] <chaals> ack ch
  958. # [19:42] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  959. # [19:42] <chaals> q+ vladimir
  960. # [19:42] * Zakim sees vladimir on the speaker queue
  961. # [19:42] <Josh_Soref> clilley: where are we in the process
  962. # [19:42] <Josh_Soref> ... are both CORS and From-Origin is in where?
  963. # [19:42] <Josh_Soref> ArtB: CORS is a joint from Sec+WebApps
  964. # [19:42] <Josh_Soref> ... F-O is in Sec only
  965. # [19:43] <Josh_Soref> ... I saw Brad walk in
  966. # [19:43] <Josh_Soref> clilley: follow up, where are the issue lists for these specs?
  967. # [19:43] <Josh_Soref> ... pointer?
  968. # [19:43] <Josh_Soref> q?
  969. # [19:43] * Zakim sees vladimir on the speaker queue
  970. # [19:43] <Josh_Soref> BradL: CoChairing Web Apps Sec WG
  971. # [19:44] <Josh_Soref> ... Web Apps Sec is co delivering it with Web Apps to drive it through
  972. # [19:44] <Josh_Soref> ... to keep IPR grants
  973. # [19:44] <Josh_Soref> ... there are some small issues
  974. # [19:44] <Josh_Soref> ... including Best Practices
  975. # [19:44] <Josh_Soref> ... additionally our tracker has some other small issues
  976. # [19:44] <Josh_Soref> ... which we may move to bugzilla
  977. # [19:44] <Josh_Soref> ... the primary issue before REC is a test suite
  978. # [19:44] <ArtB> CORS: bugs: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&short_desc_type=allwordssubstr&short_desc=&product=WebAppsWG&component=Access+Control&longdesc_type=allwordssubstr&longdesc=&bug_file_loc_type=allwordssubstr&bug_file_loc=&status_whiteboard_type=allwordssubstr&status_whiteboard=&keywords_type=allwords&keywords=&bug_status=UNCONFIRMED&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&bug_status=RESOLVED&bug_status=VERIFIED&bug_statu
  979. # [19:44] <Josh_Soref> ... anne is working on it
  980. # [19:45] * Quits: Tom (tgambet@mcclure.w3.org) (Client exited)
  981. # [19:45] <Josh_Soref> ... we're new so we'll be meeting with Staff
  982. # [19:45] * Joins: Tom (tgambet@mcclure.w3.org)
  983. # [19:45] <Josh_Soref> clilley: and for F-O?
  984. # [19:45] <Josh_Soref> BradL: that's not in our charter
  985. # [19:45] <Josh_Soref> q+ to ask where it is
  986. # [19:45] * Zakim sees vladimir, Josh_Soref on the speaker queue
  987. # [19:45] <chaals> ack jo
  988. # [19:45] <Zakim> Josh_Soref, you wanted to ask where it is
  989. # [19:45] * Zakim sees vladimir on the speaker queue
  990. # [19:45] * Josh_Soref Ms2ger please fix F-O to be refed in minutes in Web Apps not Sec
  991. # [19:45] <Josh_Soref> q-
  992. # [19:45] * Zakim sees vladimir on the speaker queue
  993. # [19:45] * Joins: nicksoba_ (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  994. # [19:45] <ArtB> From-Origin: http://www.w3.org/TR/from-origin/
  995. # [19:45] <chaals> ack vla
  996. # [19:45] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  997. # [19:46] <Josh_Soref> vladimir: from everything i've heard so far, we seem to lean to same-origin with CORS
  998. # [19:46] <Josh_Soref> ... and my question was the same as clilley's - already answered
  999. # [19:46] <Josh_Soref> chaals: we seem to be leaning that way
  1000. # [19:46] * Quits: Tom (tgambet@mcclure.w3.org) (Client exited)
  1001. # [19:46] <Josh_Soref> ... How many people Same Origin by default
  1002. # [19:46] * Ms2ger Josh_Soref say what?
  1003. # [19:46] * Joins: Tom (tgambet@mcclure.w3.org)
  1004. # [19:47] * Josh_Soref From-Origin, i think i tagged it
  1005. # [19:47] * Quits: nicksoba (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  1006. # [19:47] * heycam Division required!
  1007. # [19:47] <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  1008. # [19:47] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-webapps-minutes.html Ms2ger
  1009. # [19:47] <Josh_Soref> ... Same-Origin - 25
  1010. # [19:47] * Josh_Soref ... as Web Apps Sec
  1011. # [19:48] * Josh_Soref ... but it's not Sec it's just Web Apps
  1012. # [19:48] * Josh_Soref ... they're talking to fast for me to fix the minutes for it
  1013. # [19:48] <Josh_Soref> ... Against Same-Origin - 8
  1014. # [19:48] <Josh_Soref> q?
  1015. # [19:48] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1016. # [19:48] <Josh_Soref> clilley: follow on question ...
  1017. # [19:49] <Josh_Soref> chaals: is this a strong objection, if we resolved to use Same Origin, would you argue, or can you live with it?
  1018. # [19:49] <Ms2ger> s/F-O is in Sec only/From-Origin is in WebApps only/
  1019. # [19:49] <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  1020. # [19:49] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-webapps-minutes.html Ms2ger
  1021. # [19:49] * Quits: dino (dino@63.145.238.4) (Quit: dino)
  1022. # [19:49] <Josh_Soref> ... if you can't live with that decision, justify why we should continue arguing
  1023. # [19:50] <Josh_Soref> Bert: for Fonts, i really like the restriction to be on a higher level than the protocol
  1024. # [19:50] <Josh_Soref> ... something that isn't http
  1025. # [19:50] <chaals> q+ tab
  1026. # [19:50] * Zakim sees tab on the speaker queue
  1027. # [19:50] <Josh_Soref> ... for animations
  1028. # [19:50] <Josh_Soref> ack tab
  1029. # [19:50] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1030. # [19:50] <chaals> ack tab
  1031. # [19:50] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1032. # [19:50] <Josh_Soref> tab: i don't believe this is restricted to any protocol
  1033. # [19:51] <Josh_Soref> [ jdagget points out to tab that CORS is http ]
  1034. # [19:51] <Josh_Soref> [ and clilley explains that you can reference ftp resources ]
  1035. # [19:51] <chaals> q+ jonas
  1036. # [19:51] * Zakim sees jonas on the speaker queue
  1037. # [19:51] <Josh_Soref> Adam: that's a general problem with CORS everywhere
  1038. # [19:51] <Josh_Soref> ... when we introduce other protocols
  1039. # [19:51] <Josh_Soref> ... we'll demand that they support CORS
  1040. # [19:51] <dbaron> (Adam == Adam Barth)
  1041. # [19:52] <Josh_Soref> tab: and patch ftp
  1042. # [19:52] <chaals> ack jo
  1043. # [19:52] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1044. # [19:52] <Josh_Soref> Bert: How about email?
  1045. # [19:52] <Josh_Soref> anne: how do you envision?
  1046. # [19:52] <Josh_Soref> Bert: anything with a url must have a
  1047. # [19:52] <Josh_Soref> anne: so emails include fonts?
  1048. # [19:52] <Josh_Soref> Bert: yes
  1049. # [19:52] <Josh_Soref> anne: then they're same origin
  1050. # [19:52] <Josh_Soref> Bert: what about bittorrent?
  1051. # [19:53] <Ms2ger> s/Adam:/Adam Barth:/
  1052. # [19:53] <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  1053. # [19:53] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-webapps-minutes.html Ms2ger
  1054. # [19:53] <mjs> q+
  1055. # [19:53] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
  1056. # [19:53] <chaals> q+ sicking
  1057. # [19:53] * Zakim sees mjs, sicking on the speaker queue
  1058. # [19:53] * Ms2ger failed
  1059. # [19:53] <Josh_Soref> vladimir: if you want to make it available across origins, then you could do it?
  1060. # [19:53] <chaals> q+ chris
  1061. # [19:53] * Zakim sees mjs, sicking, chris on the speaker queue
  1062. # [19:53] * Quits: nicksoba_ (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  1063. # [19:53] <Josh_Soref> ack mjs
  1064. # [19:53] * Zakim sees sicking, chris on the speaker queue
  1065. # [19:53] * Joins: fantasai (fantasai@69.162.163.148)
  1066. # [19:53] <chaals> ack mjs
  1067. # [19:53] * Zakim sees sicking, chris on the speaker queue
  1068. # [19:53] <Josh_Soref> mjs: email messages might have a same-origin problem
  1069. # [19:54] <Josh_Soref> ... the main resource comes from mid: and cid:
  1070. # [19:54] <Josh_Soref> s/and/and sub resources come from/
  1071. # [19:54] <chaals> ack si
  1072. # [19:54] * Zakim sees chris on the speaker queue
  1073. # [19:54] <Josh_Soref> sicking: any protocol that people are starting to more actively use
  1074. # [19:54] * fantasai thinks linking to fonts over bittorrent might be interesting, esp with large fonts
  1075. # [19:54] <Josh_Soref> ... people are going to have to deal with cross origin issues
  1076. # [19:54] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
  1077. # [19:54] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
  1078. # [19:54] * tcelik Fantasai, think of the FOUT!
  1079. # [19:54] <Josh_Soref> ... anyone that wants to seriously start doing web deployment over other protocols will have to define how this works
  1080. # [19:55] <chaals> q+
  1081. # [19:55] * Zakim sees chris, chaals on the speaker queue
  1082. # [19:55] <Josh_Soref> Bert: the protocol is not important, it's the resource that's important
  1083. # [19:55] <Josh_Soref> sicking: we've defined domains
  1084. # [19:55] <Josh_Soref> ... and said that everything in a domain is owned by the same person
  1085. # [19:55] <Josh_Soref> ... every other protocol will have to define something like that
  1086. # [19:55] <Josh_Soref> Bert: that's a hack
  1087. # [19:55] <Josh_Soref> q?
  1088. # [19:55] * Zakim sees chris, chaals on the speaker queue
  1089. # [19:55] <Josh_Soref> ack chr
  1090. # [19:55] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
  1091. # [19:55] * Quits: hayato (hayato@63.145.238.4) (Quit: hayato)
  1092. # [19:56] <Josh_Soref> clilley: I agree that specific protocols saying
  1093. # [19:56] * Joins: Linuz (Linuz@63.145.238.4)
  1094. # [19:56] <anne> the web is a hack. film at 11
  1095. # [19:56] <Josh_Soref> ... that cids of a mid are the same as the mid
  1096. # [19:56] <Josh_Soref> ... that's not the question
  1097. # [19:56] <chaals> q-
  1098. # [19:56] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1099. # [19:56] <Josh_Soref> ... is there an objection
  1100. # [19:56] <Josh_Soref> mjs: if the spec says that embedding fonts in email never works, i'd have to object
  1101. # [19:56] <Josh_Soref> chaals: embedding stuff in email is a real thing
  1102. # [19:56] <Josh_Soref> ... it happens in Opera
  1103. # [19:56] <Josh_Soref> ... we have questions around that
  1104. # [19:57] <Josh_Soref> ... with images, do they automatically render?
  1105. # [19:57] <Josh_Soref> ... do you run JS from another source?
  1106. # [19:57] <Josh_Soref> ... the issue of clilley/Bert
  1107. # [19:57] <Josh_Soref> ... is do we make a protocol agnostic work
  1108. # [19:57] <Josh_Soref> ... but we live on HTTP
  1109. # [19:57] <Josh_Soref> ... we don't object to people expanding things to other protocols
  1110. # [19:57] <Josh_Soref> ... i agree with mjs
  1111. # [19:58] <Josh_Soref> ... if we say you're not allowed to embed things except in http resources
  1112. # [19:58] <Josh_Soref> ... that would be beyond what is reasonable for a spec
  1113. # [19:58] <Josh_Soref> ... (this is a personal position)
  1114. # [19:58] <Josh_Soref> ... clilley's question is
  1115. # [19:58] <Josh_Soref> ... do we have someone who objects to that proposal
  1116. # [19:58] <Josh_Soref> ... of us focusing on http
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  1118. # [19:59] <Josh_Soref> ... to Bert's objection
  1119. # [19:59] <Josh_Soref> ... that we have a hack, and forcing others to work with us
  1120. # [19:59] <Josh_Soref> dom: people send newsletters in html
  1121. # [19:59] * Quits: richt (richt@63.145.238.4) (Client exited)
  1122. # [19:59] <dom> s/dom/daniel/
  1123. # [19:59] * Josh_Soref oops
  1124. # [19:59] * dom not all frenchmen are called dom
  1125. # [19:59] <Josh_Soref> ... and they rely on w3c of sending fonts in emails
  1126. # [20:00] <Josh_Soref> Florian: using http
  1127. # [20:00] <Josh_Soref> ... implicitly prevents other protocols from using it cross-origin
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  1129. # [20:00] <glazou> s/daniel/glazou
  1130. # [20:00] <Josh_Soref> jdaggett_: the wording is that cross origin is not allowed
  1131. # [20:00] <chaals> q+ chris, sick
  1132. # [20:00] * Zakim sees chris, sick on the speaker queue
  1133. # [20:00] <Josh_Soref> ... unless explicitly relaxed using CORS
  1134. # [20:01] <anne> I do think it should be defined for things that are fetched within a "browsing context" which is more than HTTP
  1135. # [20:01] <chaals> ack ch
  1136. # [20:01] * Zakim sees sick on the speaker queue
  1137. # [20:01] <Josh_Soref> clilley: in the context of this question
  1138. # [20:01] <Josh_Soref> ... sure email is a case
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  1140. # [20:01] <Josh_Soref> ... it would be possible to resolve cid: in CORS
  1141. # [20:01] * Quits: mmielke (mmielke@63.145.238.4) (Ping timeout)
  1142. # [20:01] <Josh_Soref> sicking: it's a good idea to say if it's HTTP use CORS
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  1144. # [20:02] <Josh_Soref> ... but for other protocols, fall back to their protocol for addressing this issue
  1145. # [20:02] * Joins: spoussa1 (Adium@192.55.55.37)
  1146. # [20:02] <Josh_Soref> Florian: if you're using HTTP then use CORS
  1147. # [20:02] <Josh_Soref> ... and saying if you're not HTTP then use the CORS equivalent
  1148. # [20:02] <Josh_Soref> ... is going too far
  1149. # [20:02] <Josh_Soref> glazou: this is a problem
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  1151. # [20:03] <Josh_Soref> ... because we don't know if there's an equivalent for other protocols
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  1153. # [20:03] <Josh_Soref> ... we don't know their schedules
  1154. # [20:03] <Josh_Soref> ... this isn't reasonable
  1155. # [20:03] <Josh_Soref> anne: what do you propose instead?
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  1157. # [20:03] <Josh_Soref> glazou: the w3c has dealt in the past
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  1159. # [20:04] <Josh_Soref> ... with protocols that do not belong to the web strictly
  1160. # [20:04] * dom with protocols that do not belong to the Web stricto sensus
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  1162. # [20:04] <Josh_Soref> ... we can deal with them later
  1163. # [20:04] <Josh_Soref> vladimir: i don't think this should hold us
  1164. # [20:04] <Josh_Soref> jdaggett_: Florian's point is that he wants to restrict it to Only http
  1165. # [20:04] <Josh_Soref> ... the wording now is 'same-origin' and leaves it at that
  1166. # [20:04] <chaals> q+ florian
  1167. # [20:04] * Zakim sees sick, florian on the speaker queue
  1168. # [20:05] <chaals> q+ zilles
  1169. # [20:05] * Zakim sees sick, florian, zilles on the speaker queue
  1170. # [20:05] <Josh_Soref> Florian: do not speak about restrictions for not http
  1171. # [20:05] <chaals> q+ anne
  1172. # [20:05] * Zakim sees sick, florian, zilles, anne on the speaker queue
  1173. # [20:05] <Josh_Soref> anne: there are 3 cases
  1174. # [20:05] <Josh_Soref> .... same-origin
  1175. # [20:05] <Josh_Soref> s/..../.../
  1176. # [20:05] <chaals> ack anne
  1177. # [20:05] * Zakim sees sick, florian, zilles on the speaker queue
  1178. # [20:06] <Josh_Soref> ... cross origin where the api fetching has http origin
  1179. # [20:06] <Josh_Soref> ... the scheme is not http and there's a cross origin for the other
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  1181. # [20:06] <Josh_Soref> Florian: in the spec we're talking about
  1182. # [20:06] <chaals> ack fl
  1183. # [20:06] * Zakim sees sick, zilles on the speaker queue
  1184. # [20:06] <Josh_Soref> ... we say 'for http do this, cross origin use CORS'
  1185. # [20:07] <Josh_Soref> ... we leave it up in the air
  1186. # [20:07] <Josh_Soref> ... for a later version or another group/spec
  1187. # [20:07] <Josh_Soref> q?
  1188. # [20:07] * Zakim sees sick, zilles on the speaker queue
  1189. # [20:07] <Josh_Soref> chaals: Is there any reason to continue?
  1190. # [20:07] <Josh_Soref> ack sick
  1191. # [20:07] * Zakim sees zilles on the speaker queue
  1192. # [20:07] <Josh_Soref> chaals: Are there objections to
  1193. # [20:08] <Josh_Soref> ... saying that we define this for the first two cases anne mentioned
  1194. # [20:08] <anne> I would object to making the decision in a synchronous manner
  1195. # [20:08] <Josh_Soref> ... and for the third case, we leave it as "if you're using another protocol, you figure it out"
  1196. # [20:08] <Josh_Soref> anne: i don't want us to make synchronous decisions
  1197. # [20:08] <hober> anne++
  1198. # [20:09] <Josh_Soref> chaals: i agree
  1199. # [20:09] <Josh_Soref> ... but for the sake of getting out of the room
  1200. # [20:09] <Josh_Soref> ... Is there anyone who can not live with Florian's suggestion?
  1201. # [20:09] <Josh_Soref> [ No one ]
  1202. # [20:09] <anne> shepazu, just wanted to clarify as there's more than WebApps in this room
  1203. # [20:09] <Josh_Soref> chaals: is there anyone who can not live with a policy of by default we use Same-Origin
  1204. # [20:10] <Josh_Soref> ... for fonts
  1205. # [20:10] <anne> shepazu, no need for tss sounds
  1206. # [20:10] <Josh_Soref> ... and you use CORS
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  1208. # [20:10] <Josh_Soref> [ No objection ]
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  1210. # [20:10] <Josh_Soref> chaals: we're out of time
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  1212. # [20:10] <Josh_Soref> ... thanks very much
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  1214. # [20:10] <Josh_Soref> [ Applause ]
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  1218. # [20:10] <Josh_Soref> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  1219. # [20:10] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-webapps-minutes.html Josh_Soref
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  1230. # [20:11] * ArtB thanks timeless!
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  1233. # [20:11] <Ms2ger> s|s/..../.../|
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  1240. # [20:12] <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  1241. # [20:12] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-webapps-minutes.html Ms2ger
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  1244. # [20:12] <shepazu> (anne, I don't feel it's useful to keep bringing up the decision policy when it's well established, and since any decision will *always* be subject to later discussion, in any group in W3C I've been in)
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  1246. # [20:12] <Ms2ger> s|s/..../.../||
  1247. # [20:12] <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  1248. # [20:12] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-webapps-minutes.html Ms2ger
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  1265. # [20:15] <Zakim> -??P10
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  1282. # [20:20] <Bert> Topic: animations [cont'd]
  1283. # [20:20] <Bert> Sorry
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  1288. # [20:24] <smaug> Josh_Soref: so is the agenda for tomorrow somewhere?
  1289. # [20:24] <smaug> I'd like to know when MutationObserver will be discussed
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  1291. # [20:25] <smaug> if it will be discussed
  1292. # [20:25] <Ms2ger> http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/TPAC2011
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  1316. # [20:58] <heycam> s/Topic: animations [cont'd]//
  1317. # [20:58] <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  1318. # [20:58] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-webapps-minutes.html Ms2ger
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  1344. # [21:09] <Ms2ger> The Return of the Josh
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  1355. # [21:13] <Ms2ger> dom, I hear you're needed
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  1369. # [21:18] <DKA> present+ DanielAppelquist
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  1375. # [21:18] <Ms2ger> Topic: Charter, re-chartering and scope
  1376. # [21:18] <dcooney> present +dcooney
  1377. # [21:18] <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  1378. # [21:18] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-webapps-minutes.html Ms2ger
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  1383. # [21:19] <MikeSmith> ArtB, http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ime-api/raw-file/tip/Overview.html
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  1390. # [21:19] <Josh_Soref> s/present +stpeter/present+ stpeter/
  1391. # [21:20] <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  1392. # [21:20] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-webapps-minutes.html Ms2ger
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  1394. # [21:20] <stpeter> Josh_Soref: thanks
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  1397. # [21:20] <Josh_Soref> s/Josh_Soref: thanks//
  1398. # [21:20] * Josh_Soref use /me ...
  1399. # [21:20] <Soonho> present+ Soonho_Lee
  1400. # [21:20] <jeff> present+ Jeff
  1401. # [21:20] <Josh_Soref> Topic: Charter/Rechartering
  1402. # [21:20] <Josh_Soref> ArtB: Items
  1403. # [21:20] * Joins: ifette (ifette@63.145.238.4)
  1404. # [21:20] <Josh_Soref> ... WebIntents
  1405. # [21:21] <ifette> present+ ifette
  1406. # [21:21] <Ms2ger> s|s/present+WayneCarr/present+ WayneCarr|
  1407. # [21:21] <Josh_Soref> ... -- where should it be, DAP/WebApps
  1408. # [21:21] <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  1409. # [21:21] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-webapps-minutes.html Ms2ger
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  1412. # [21:21] <Josh_Soref> chaals: Can we push Widgets to the top of the stack (TAG will start shortly)
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  1414. # [21:21] * Ms2ger fails again
  1415. # [21:21] * Josh_Soref thanks Ms2ger for trying
  1416. # [21:22] <Josh_Soref> [ Introductions ]
  1417. # [21:22] <Ms2ger> shepazu: Doug Schepers, Microsoft
  1418. # [21:22] <Ms2ger> ... er, W3C
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  1423. # [21:24] <Josh_Soref> ArtB: welcome everyone
  1424. # [21:24] <Josh_Soref> ... dan you wanted to say something about widgets?
  1425. # [21:24] <chaals> q+
  1426. # [21:24] * Zakim sees zilles, chaals on the speaker queue
  1427. # [21:24] <MikeSmith> q?
  1428. # [21:24] * Zakim sees zilles, chaals on the speaker queue
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  1431. # [21:24] <chaals> ack zil
  1432. # [21:24] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
  1433. # [21:25] <Josh_Soref> DanA: no... not really
  1434. # [21:25] * Joins: skim_ (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  1435. # [21:25] <Josh_Soref> ... there's a meeting on Saturday on Offline Applications
  1436. # [21:25] <Josh_Soref> ... which I'm coordinating
  1437. # [21:25] <Josh_Soref> ArtB: this morning we did PubStatus
  1438. # [21:25] * Quits: fjh (fhirsch3@66.30.252.41) (Connection reset by peer)
  1439. # [21:25] * Josh_Soref http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-webapps-minutes.html#item01
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  1442. # [21:26] * Quits: Gopal (graghava@63.145.238.4) (Ping timeout)
  1443. # [21:26] <Josh_Soref> ... we also have on the agenda a block of time from 5-6pm tonight titled web application packaging v2
  1444. # [21:26] <Josh_Soref> chaals: What i really wanted to do
  1445. # [21:26] <Josh_Soref> ... it seems the widget work we charter for and did is done / about to be done
  1446. # [21:26] * Joins: mav (mav@63.145.238.4)
  1447. # [21:26] <Josh_Soref> ... as DanA said, there is this workshop coming up
  1448. # [21:26] <Josh_Soref> s/meeting/Workshop/
  1449. # [21:26] <Josh_Soref> ... we have widgets
  1450. # [21:26] <Josh_Soref> ... appcache
  1451. # [21:27] <Josh_Soref> ... installable widgets
  1452. # [21:27] <Josh_Soref> ... offline apps
  1453. # [21:27] <Josh_Soref> ... If we go to do a version 2, is that something we'd do in this group?
  1454. # [21:27] <Josh_Soref> mjs: preferably not
  1455. # [21:27] <Josh_Soref> shepazu: in the early days of this group
  1456. # [21:27] <Josh_Soref> ... it was a shotgun approach
  1457. # [21:27] * Joins: plh (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  1458. # [21:27] <Josh_Soref> ... i think we started focusing on apis
  1459. # [21:27] <MikeSmith> q?
  1460. # [21:28] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
  1461. # [21:28] <DKA> q+
  1462. # [21:28] * Zakim sees chaals, DKA on the speaker queue
  1463. # [21:28] <Josh_Soref> ... we had the experience of only some of the people focusing on widgets work
  1464. # [21:28] <chaals> q- later
  1465. # [21:28] * Zakim sees DKA, chaals on the speaker queue
  1466. # [21:28] <Josh_Soref> ... it doesn't seem like a good fit
  1467. # [21:28] <Josh_Soref> sicking: from mozilla's point
  1468. # [21:28] <Josh_Soref> ... i think what's interesting is ... packaging
  1469. # [21:28] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  1470. # [21:28] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
  1471. # [21:28] <Josh_Soref> ... if that's not in the same group, that's ok
  1472. # [21:28] <Josh_Soref> shepazu: we're talking about the scope of this group, Web Apps
  1473. # [21:29] <Josh_Soref> ... there may be another group working on installable web apps
  1474. # [21:29] <Josh_Soref> sicking: are we talking about moving all of the widgets stuff?
  1475. # [21:29] <Josh_Soref> Marcos: we wouldn't move any of the stuff here, since it's all effectively done
  1476. # [21:29] <Josh_Soref> ... we could move or keep any future work
  1477. # [21:29] <Josh_Soref> ... i'm happy to go wherever the discussion is
  1478. # [21:29] <Josh_Soref> ... since we put in 5 years on the spec
  1479. # [21:29] <Josh_Soref> s/spec/specs/
  1480. # [21:30] <Josh_Soref> ... from an ipr perspective, i'm happy with where it is
  1481. # [21:30] <Josh_Soref> ... but moving it to another group would enable us to see who's interested
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  1484. # [21:30] <Josh_Soref> ... so we don't just have Marcos on a mailing list emailing himself
  1485. # [21:30] * Joins: Gopal (graghava@63.145.238.4)
  1486. # [21:30] <Josh_Soref> DanA: thanks for the invite
  1487. # [21:30] <Josh_Soref> ... one of the things i wanted to say
  1488. # [21:30] * Quits: plh (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  1489. # [21:31] <Josh_Soref> ... is that one of my hopes for the workshop on Saturday
  1490. # [21:31] * Quits: skim_ (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  1491. # [21:31] * Tom_ is now known as Tom
  1492. # [21:31] <Josh_Soref> ... is to clarify things for offline/appcache/widgets
  1493. # [21:31] * Joins: stkim (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  1494. # [21:31] <Josh_Soref> ... and for things outside w3
  1495. # [21:31] <chaals> ack dk
  1496. # [21:31] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
  1497. # [21:31] * Joins: SungOk_You (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  1498. # [21:31] <Josh_Soref> ... which have prominense
  1499. # [21:31] <bryan> q+
  1500. # [21:31] * Zakim sees chaals, bryan on the speaker queue
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  1502. # [21:32] <Josh_Soref> ... I don't think what will come out will be widgets2.
  1503. # [21:32] <Josh_Soref> s/2./2.0/
  1504. # [21:32] <Josh_Soref> ... people do use things offline and do want to install them offline
  1505. # [21:32] <Josh_Soref> ... it comes back to, i hope we have a coherent discussion on Saturday
  1506. # [21:32] <Josh_Soref> ... and out of that comes a mandate for doing work in this space
  1507. # [21:32] <Josh_Soref> chaals: sicking asked if this was just packaging
  1508. # [21:32] * Joins: plh (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  1509. # [21:32] <Josh_Soref> ... my answer is no
  1510. # [21:32] <Josh_Soref> ... packaging is important
  1511. # [21:33] <Josh_Soref> ... but a key is looking at applications and how they work
  1512. # [21:33] * Joins: tantek (tantek@63.145.238.4)
  1513. # [21:33] <Josh_Soref> ... one of the thing for widgets is to let them work in more weblike ways
  1514. # [21:33] * Joins: jrossi2 (jrossi@63.145.238.4)
  1515. # [21:33] <Josh_Soref> ... we want appcache based things to work more like widgets
  1516. # [21:33] <Josh_Soref> ... appcache is at its basics packaging
  1517. # [21:33] <Josh_Soref> ... like Marcos, we don't really care whether it happens here, or somewhere else
  1518. # [21:34] <Josh_Soref> ... there is a question, because we're at w3c
  1519. # [21:34] <Josh_Soref> ... because we deal with objections/strong objections relating to chartering
  1520. # [21:34] <Josh_Soref> ... if there's some clear thing we should know
  1521. # [21:34] <chaals> ack ch
  1522. # [21:34] * Zakim sees bryan on the speaker queue
  1523. # [21:34] <Josh_Soref> bryan: to underscore what DanA said
  1524. # [21:34] <Josh_Soref> ... we have similar views
  1525. # [21:35] <Josh_Soref> ... we see widgets as a base for web applications
  1526. # [21:35] <Josh_Soref> ... we see some challenges
  1527. # [21:35] <Ms2ger> ack bryan
  1528. # [21:35] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1529. # [21:35] <Josh_Soref> ... for how it works with the web
  1530. # [21:35] <Josh_Soref> ... in terms of security model
  1531. # [21:35] <Josh_Soref> ... it's broader than packaging
  1532. # [21:35] <Josh_Soref> ... than any specific api
  1533. # [21:35] <chaals> q+ doug
  1534. # [21:35] * Zakim sees doug on the speaker queue
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  1536. # [21:35] <chaals> ack doug
  1537. # [21:35] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1538. # [21:35] <bryan> q-
  1539. # [21:35] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1540. # [21:35] <Josh_Soref> ... it's more about how they fit into the overall web architecture
  1541. # [21:36] <Josh_Soref> shepazu: i'd like to limit the scope to Web Apps Charter
  1542. # [21:36] <Josh_Soref> ... I'm proposing that the next charter from Web Apps not include Widgets
  1543. # [21:36] * Joins: jihye (jihye0525.@63.145.238.4)
  1544. # [21:36] <Josh_Soref> chaals: when PAG is done, they should move to REC
  1545. # [21:36] <Josh_Soref> shepazu: do we delay the chartering of Web Apps until they're done?
  1546. # [21:37] * Joins: tobie (tobie@63.145.238.4)
  1547. # [21:37] <Josh_Soref> Marcos: we just adjust the text to say that Widgets is scope limited to the current deliverables being delivered
  1548. # [21:37] <DKA> q+
  1549. # [21:37] * Zakim sees DKA on the speaker queue
  1550. # [21:37] <Josh_Soref> DanA: i'd like to wait until after the Workshop
  1551. # [21:37] <chaals> ack dk
  1552. # [21:37] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1553. # [21:37] <MikeSmith> q?
  1554. # [21:37] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1555. # [21:37] <Josh_Soref> [ ArtB does a time check ]
  1556. # [21:38] <Josh_Soref> Topic: Charter/Web Intents
  1557. # [21:38] <Josh_Soref> jgraham: Web Intents
  1558. # [21:38] <Josh_Soref> ... is based on Android Intents
  1559. # [21:38] <Josh_Soref> ... it allows a site to talk about how they handle actions
  1560. # [21:38] <Josh_Soref> ... and allows client sites to ask about an action
  1561. # [21:38] <Josh_Soref> ... and lets the user pair them
  1562. # [21:38] <Josh_Soref> ... picking the service the user wants to use
  1563. # [21:39] <Josh_Soref> ... It's a solution to the "nasgar problem"
  1564. # [21:39] <Josh_Soref> ... -- Share with 40 items
  1565. # [21:39] <heycam> s/nasgar/nascar/
  1566. # [21:39] <Josh_Soref> ... this is a short term communication ipc
  1567. # [21:39] <Josh_Soref> ... it was in the scope of DAPI
  1568. # [21:39] * Quits: jrossi2 (jrossi@63.145.238.4) (Connection reset by peer)
  1569. # [21:39] <Josh_Soref> plh: Web Intents is also in the scope of DAP
  1570. # [21:39] * tantek listens in on the intents discussion.
  1571. # [21:40] <Josh_Soref> darobin: It was deliberately put into the DAP charter
  1572. # [21:40] * tantek wonders if there's going to much UX discussion about it.
  1573. # [21:40] <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  1574. # [21:40] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-webapps-minutes.html Ms2ger
  1575. # [21:40] <Josh_Soref> ... it wasn't listed as Web Intents
  1576. # [21:40] <Josh_Soref> plh: is that WG working on it?
  1577. # [21:40] <Josh_Soref> darobin: I proposed doing it in DAP because we're already chartered to do it
  1578. # [21:40] <Josh_Soref> plh: what about Joint?
  1579. # [21:41] <Josh_Soref> darobin: I'm always worried about joint deliverables
  1580. # [21:41] <Josh_Soref> MikeSmith: what's the value of Joint?
  1581. # [21:41] <Josh_Soref> ... except additional process?
  1582. # [21:41] <Josh_Soref> plh: you get more patent commitments since you have commitments from members of both groups
  1583. # [21:41] <Josh_Soref> sicking: in my experience
  1584. # [21:41] <MikeSmith> tantek, likely nothing about UX, just about whether to take up the technology in the WebApps WG
  1585. # [21:41] * Joins: myakura_ (myakura@63.145.238.4)
  1586. # [21:41] <Josh_Soref> ... I would see the problem of discussions getting split up across 3 mailing lists
  1587. # [21:42] <Josh_Soref> s/3/2/
  1588. # [21:42] <Josh_Soref> ... unless we add a third mailing list
  1589. # [21:42] <Josh_Soref> dom: getting a sub mailing list is trivial
  1590. # [21:42] <Josh_Soref> ... the difficult part is getting people to subscribe to it
  1591. # [21:42] <chaals> s/sub/third/
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  1593. # [21:42] <MikeSmith> q?
  1594. # [21:42] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1595. # [21:42] <Josh_Soref> ... the other thing is that web intents relates to discovery
  1596. # [21:42] <chaals> q+ james, chaals
  1597. # [21:42] * Zakim sees james, chaals on the speaker queue
  1598. # [21:43] * Joins: junghoonmoon (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  1599. # [21:43] <Josh_Soref> ... and DAP already has that in its charter
  1600. # [21:43] * Joins: davida (davida@63.245.220.240)
  1601. # [21:43] <Josh_Soref> ifette: part of the important consideration
  1602. # [21:43] <Josh_Soref> ... it may be in DAP's charter
  1603. # [21:43] <Josh_Soref> ... being in a charter may be expedient
  1604. # [21:43] <Josh_Soref> ... but it may not be the right solution
  1605. # [21:43] <Josh_Soref> ... we've talked about Web Intents as a possible solution for Permissions problems
  1606. # [21:44] <Josh_Soref> ... there's a lot of tie in potentially between Web Intents and other work in this WG
  1607. # [21:44] <Josh_Soref> ... I think this group already has the relevant members
  1608. # [21:44] <Josh_Soref> ... it's nice, I appreciate that DAP did outreach
  1609. # [21:44] <tantek> MikeSmith - without UX being the focus/driver, I'd suggest not bothering with taking up any such technology in any working group.
  1610. # [21:44] <chaals> q+ mark
  1611. # [21:44] * Zakim sees james, chaals, mark on the speaker queue
  1612. # [21:44] <chaals> q- later
  1613. # [21:44] * Zakim sees james, mark, chaals on the speaker queue
  1614. # [21:44] <Josh_Soref> jgraham: relating to device interaction
  1615. # [21:44] <Josh_Soref> ... I agree those will happen
  1616. # [21:44] <tantek> without UX being nailed first, intents is pretty much doomed
  1617. # [21:44] <Josh_Soref> ... the way that the api is written
  1618. # [21:44] * Joins: shanec (mixedpuppy@63.245.220.240)
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  1620. # [21:45] <Josh_Soref> ... is so generic
  1621. # [21:45] <tantek> or we can all repeat the lessons learned by OpenID trying to solve the NASCAR problem (where UX was also neglected)
  1622. # [21:45] <chaals> ... that it doesn't matter whether it ties to the device or not.
  1623. # [21:45] <ifette> s/jgraham/jhawkins/
  1624. # [21:45] <Josh_Soref> s/jgraham/jhawkins/
  1625. # [21:45] * Josh_Soref Ms2ger please check to see if i missed an s/// on him
  1626. # [21:46] <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  1627. # [21:46] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-webapps-minutes.html Ms2ger
  1628. # [21:46] * Joins: karl (karlcow@128.30.54.58)
  1629. # [21:46] <Josh_Soref> dom: I think the fact that DAP is pushing quite heavily on service and discovery
  1630. # [21:46] <Josh_Soref> ... means that we want to be involved
  1631. # [21:46] * Quits: taohong (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  1632. # [21:46] * Joins: vgalindo (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  1633. # [21:46] <Josh_Soref> MarkV: Mark V.. Comcast
  1634. # [21:46] <mav> http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/wiki/ServiceDiscoveryComparison
  1635. # [21:46] <Josh_Soref> ... Part of the reason we're interested
  1636. # [21:46] <Josh_Soref> s/MarkV/mav/
  1637. # [21:46] * Ms2ger Josh_Soref, those s///s failed
  1638. # [21:46] * Joins: jhawkins (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  1639. # [21:46] <Josh_Soref> ... Comcast and Cable Labs
  1640. # [21:46] <Josh_Soref> ... and Webinos have proposals
  1641. # [21:47] <Josh_Soref> ... It's in the charter of DAP currently
  1642. # [21:47] <Josh_Soref> ... it may be more appropriate here
  1643. # [21:47] <Josh_Soref> chaals: +1
  1644. # [21:47] <Josh_Soref> ... literally
  1645. # [21:47] * Joins: MoZ (MoZ@63.145.238.4)
  1646. # [21:47] <Josh_Soref> ... we have a proposal for discovery
  1647. # [21:47] <Josh_Soref> ... I'm speaking for Opera
  1648. # [21:47] <Josh_Soref> ... a lot of the people who need to be in the discussion are in DAP
  1649. # [21:47] <Josh_Soref> ... a joint deliverable has a little bit of value
  1650. # [21:47] <Josh_Soref> ... a wider IPR commitment
  1651. # [21:47] <Josh_Soref> ... more pain from split discussion
  1652. # [21:47] <tantek> How about a CG instead?
  1653. # [21:48] <Josh_Soref> ... more lists is hell
  1654. # [21:48] <Josh_Soref> ... there's a proposal of merging DAP and Web Apps
  1655. # [21:48] <Josh_Soref> ... it's part of our position
  1656. # [21:48] <Josh_Soref> [ amusing proposal and laughter ]
  1657. # [21:48] <Josh_Soref> chaals: We would lean towards
  1658. # [21:48] <mjs> q+
  1659. # [21:48] * Zakim sees james, mark, chaals, mjs on the speaker queue
  1660. # [21:49] <Josh_Soref> ... DAP *was* a pretty dysfunctional, pointless, stupid thing, 2 years ago
  1661. # [21:49] <Josh_Soref> ... it is no longer
  1662. # [21:49] <chaals> ack ch
  1663. # [21:49] * Zakim sees james, mark, mjs on the speaker queue
  1664. # [21:49] * Joins: jdaggett_ (jdaggett@63.145.238.4)
  1665. # [21:49] <chaals> ack ma
  1666. # [21:49] * Zakim sees james, mjs on the speaker queue
  1667. # [21:49] <chaals> ack ja
  1668. # [21:49] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
  1669. # [21:49] <chaals> ack mj
  1670. # [21:49] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1671. # [21:49] <Josh_Soref> jhawkins: Web Intents and Discovery are similar, but they are not the same
  1672. # [21:49] <Josh_Soref> mjs: As a point of information
  1673. # [21:49] * Joins: sriramyadavalli (sriramyada@63.145.238.4)
  1674. # [21:49] <Josh_Soref> ... Apple is unlikely to ever join DAP
  1675. # [21:49] * Joins: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.169)
  1676. # [21:49] <Josh_Soref> ... because of IPR concerns and others
  1677. # [21:49] <Josh_Soref> ... we are somewhat interested in Web Intents
  1678. # [21:50] <Josh_Soref> ... and would try to comment if it were in Web Apps or joint in Web Apps
  1679. # [21:50] * Joins: arronei (arronei@63.145.238.4)
  1680. # [21:50] <Josh_Soref> ... we would not if it were solely in DAP
  1681. # [21:50] <Josh_Soref> shepazu: I'm hearing concrete reasons to have it in both
  1682. # [21:50] * Quits: dcooney (dominicc@63.145.238.4) (Quit: dcooney)
  1683. # [21:50] <Josh_Soref> ... that sort of supports having it as Joint
  1684. # [21:50] <Josh_Soref> darin: Darin, Google
  1685. # [21:50] <Josh_Soref> ... we work together with Apple
  1686. # [21:51] <Josh_Soref> ... it's fairly important that we be in the group with Apple talking about Web Intents
  1687. # [21:51] <Josh_Soref> chaals: two things
  1688. # [21:51] <Josh_Soref> ... permissions
  1689. # [21:51] <Josh_Soref> ... permissions as we all know is a flaming ungodly mess
  1690. # [21:51] <Josh_Soref> ... it comes up in web apps
  1691. # [21:51] <Josh_Soref> ... it comes up with almost everything that DAP does
  1692. # [21:51] <Josh_Soref> ... DAP will fail in everything if it isn't solved
  1693. # [21:52] <Josh_Soref> ... If Google and Apple are working together with everything
  1694. # [21:52] <Josh_Soref> ... why does it matter?
  1695. # [21:52] <Josh_Soref> ... Apple can have Google present the point
  1696. # [21:52] <Josh_Soref> darin: it's much easier if things are only in one room
  1697. # [21:52] <Josh_Soref> ... we are developing Web Intents with Mozilla
  1698. # [21:52] <Josh_Soref> ... it would be nice if everyone was in one room
  1699. # [21:53] <Josh_Soref> ... trying to maintain the conversation in different WGs is probably similar
  1700. # [21:53] <Josh_Soref> shepazu: both groups do all their work in the public
  1701. # [21:53] <Josh_Soref> ... web apps is a public mailing list the everyone can subscribe to
  1702. # [21:53] <Josh_Soref> ifette: the same argument could be made for whatwg
  1703. # [21:54] <Josh_Soref> [ shepazu and darin share the mic to talk about mailing lists / where work is ]
  1704. # [21:54] <Josh_Soref> dom: what darin is saying is that if the work was only in DAP
  1705. # [21:54] * Joins: sangwhan (sangwhan@63.145.238.4)
  1706. # [21:54] <Josh_Soref> ... then since apple couldn't be in DAP
  1707. # [21:54] <Josh_Soref> ... that it would require someone to do work to share with apple
  1708. # [21:55] <Josh_Soref> sicking: any outcome where all the parties can't be at the table is a failure
  1709. # [21:55] <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  1710. # [21:55] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-webapps-minutes.html Ms2ger
  1711. # [21:55] <Josh_Soref> [ ArtB time check ]
  1712. # [21:55] <Josh_Soref> ArtB: Would anyone object to a joint deliverable?
  1713. # [21:55] <Josh_Soref> ifette: capital O object?
  1714. # [21:55] <Josh_Soref> ... I think it would be better if it was a single list, a single WG
  1715. # [21:56] <Josh_Soref> ... I don't think we'd Object, but we have a preference against
  1716. # [21:56] <Josh_Soref> ... If DAP folks don't object to doing work in web apps, why don't we do the work here?
  1717. # [21:56] <Josh_Soref> shepazu: to clarify, you don't want it to be a joint deliverable?
  1718. # [21:56] <Josh_Soref> darin: DAP folks don't mind to do work in web apps
  1719. # [21:56] <Josh_Soref> ... so why not do work in web apps?
  1720. # [21:57] <Josh_Soref> chaals: just as ifette won't formally object to a Joint deliverable
  1721. # [21:57] <Josh_Soref> ... we would rather that the work happen in DAP
  1722. # [21:57] <Josh_Soref> ... it's not DAP saying we should merge the group
  1723. # [21:57] * Quits: manyoung (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  1724. # [21:57] <Josh_Soref> ... it was darobin tossing up the idea
  1725. # [21:57] <Josh_Soref> darobin: i'm not even sure myself it's a good idea
  1726. # [21:57] <Josh_Soref> dom: one way is to go back to DAP
  1727. # [21:58] <Josh_Soref> ... maybe there are people in DAP who would want to be involved but can't join Web Apps
  1728. # [21:58] <Josh_Soref> ArtB: I'd like to move on to the next topic
  1729. # [21:58] <Josh_Soref> jhawkins: I've made a proposal
  1730. # [21:58] <Josh_Soref> ... that we upload the docs
  1731. # [21:58] <Josh_Soref> ... and get a thread started
  1732. # [21:58] <Josh_Soref> ... it sounds like it's not going to be in dap specifically
  1733. # [21:58] <Josh_Soref> ... it could be a joint effort
  1734. # [21:59] <Josh_Soref> ... it could move to a third mailing list
  1735. # [21:59] <Josh_Soref> ... after the fact
  1736. # [21:59] <Josh_Soref> chaals: as a way of moving forward
  1737. # [21:59] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  1738. # [21:59] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
  1739. # [21:59] <Josh_Soref> ... Web Apps is not chartered to do that
  1740. # [21:59] <Josh_Soref> ... if DAP does the work and uses Web Apps
  1741. # [21:59] <Josh_Soref> ifette: No. no
  1742. # [21:59] <Josh_Soref> chaals: you want to wait until chartering?
  1743. # [22:00] <Josh_Soref> shepazu: do people object to adding Web Intents to the Web Apps charter?
  1744. # [22:00] <Josh_Soref> ... we can always decide on Joint later
  1745. # [22:00] <Josh_Soref> ... I ask the chairs to make that call
  1746. # [22:00] * Ms2ger Capital O?
  1747. # [22:00] <Josh_Soref> ArtB: Does anyone object to adding Web Intents to the Web Apps charter?
  1748. # [22:00] <Josh_Soref> Suresh: Suresh, RIM
  1749. # [22:00] <Suresh> q+
  1750. # [22:00] * Zakim sees Suresh on the speaker queue
  1751. # [22:00] <Josh_Soref> Suresh: so, trying to understand...
  1752. # [22:01] <Josh_Soref> ... what are the implications on the DAP charter?
  1753. # [22:01] <Josh_Soref> shepazu: we're just talking in this WG about this charter
  1754. # [22:01] <Josh_Soref> heycam: in terms of initial discussions before chartering discussions are made
  1755. # [22:01] * Joins: glazou (glazou@63.145.238.4)
  1756. # [22:01] <Josh_Soref> ... we've discussed things before the decision was made
  1757. # [22:01] * Quits: jhawkins (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  1758. # [22:01] * Joins: a12u (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  1759. # [22:01] <Josh_Soref> ... as we did for Editing
  1760. # [22:02] <Josh_Soref> [ Time check, 5 mins to 2pm ]
  1761. # [22:02] <Josh_Soref> weinig: How would it be added?
  1762. # [22:02] * Parts: glazou (glazou@63.145.238.4)
  1763. # [22:02] <Josh_Soref> shepazu: how it would be added would be a deliverable, discussed on the list
  1764. # [22:02] <Josh_Soref> mav: if that's concluded, i would ask that the same thing happen for discovery api
  1765. # [22:03] <Josh_Soref> ... because there's a lot of overlap
  1766. # [22:03] <Josh_Soref> chaals: +1
  1767. # [22:03] <Josh_Soref> ... we would be upset if one happens in DAP and one happens in Web Apps
  1768. # [22:03] * Quits: DKA (dka@63.145.238.4) (Quit: DKA)
  1769. # [22:03] <Josh_Soref> ... we would likely to formally object
  1770. # [22:03] <Josh_Soref> s/object/Object/
  1771. # [22:03] <Josh_Soref> RESOLUTION: No objection to adding Web Intents to the Web Apps Charter
  1772. # [22:04] <Josh_Soref> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  1773. # [22:04] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-webapps-minutes.html Josh_Soref
  1774. # [22:04] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  1775. # [22:04] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
  1776. # [22:04] <Josh_Soref> Topic: Charter/Merge DAP into Web Apps
  1777. # [22:04] <Josh_Soref> darobin: the general process of W3C
  1778. # [22:04] <Josh_Soref> ... is that we put things in DAP
  1779. # [22:04] * Joins: fjh_ (fhirsch3@66.30.252.41)
  1780. # [22:04] <Josh_Soref> ... people say it sucks
  1781. # [22:04] <Josh_Soref> ... two years later, we try to move them to Web Apps
  1782. # [22:04] * Quits: a12u (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  1783. # [22:05] * Quits: fjh_ (fhirsch3@66.30.252.41) (Client exited)
  1784. # [22:05] <Josh_Soref> ... i'm not sure it's a good idea
  1785. # [22:05] <Josh_Soref> ... but i just wanted to throw the idea out there
  1786. # [22:05] <Josh_Soref> [ Beep ]
  1787. # [22:05] * Joins: fjh_ (fhirsch3@66.30.252.41)
  1788. # [22:05] <Josh_Soref> ifette: There's not enmity with DAP
  1789. # [22:05] <Josh_Soref> ... for the things that we work on, we want to make sure we have all the browser vendors there
  1790. # [22:05] * Joins: a12u (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  1791. # [22:05] <Josh_Soref> ... I know Microsoft joined, and that's great
  1792. # [22:05] * Quits: fjh (fhirsch3@66.30.252.41) (Client exited)
  1793. # [22:05] * fjh_ is now known as fjh
  1794. # [22:06] <Josh_Soref> ... but we heard Apple won't
  1795. # [22:06] <Josh_Soref> ... For us, we need all the browsers to give input
  1796. # [22:06] <Josh_Soref> ... if we don't get that, there's not much point
  1797. # [22:06] <Josh_Soref> ArtB: Would any of the Web Apps members object to us merging DAP into Web Apps?
  1798. # [22:06] * fjh is "heard" a rumor or fact?
  1799. # [22:06] * Joins: cyril (chatzilla@63.145.238.4)
  1800. # [22:06] <Josh_Soref> chaals: Personal objections?
  1801. # [22:06] * Quits: junghoonmoon (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  1802. # [22:06] * Joins: jcdufourd (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  1803. # [22:07] <Josh_Soref> Personal objections - 9
  1804. # [22:07] * Ms2ger in favour
  1805. # [22:07] <Josh_Soref> chaals: are any of those Formal Objections?
  1806. # [22:07] * Joins: uohuoh (4e2366b7@207.192.75.252)
  1807. # [22:07] * Joins: noriya (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  1808. # [22:07] <Josh_Soref> [ There were two Objections likely ]
  1809. # [22:07] * Parts: uohuoh (4e2366b7@207.192.75.252)
  1810. # [22:07] <spoussa> present+ spoussa
  1811. # [22:08] * Joins: DKA (dka@63.145.238.4)
  1812. # [22:08] <Josh_Soref> Topic: Charter/Web Notifications
  1813. # [22:08] * Quits: chsiao (chatzilla@63.145.238.4) (Ping timeout)
  1814. # [22:08] <Josh_Soref> ArtB: what anne wanted to discuss was taking the deliverables from Web Notifications
  1815. # [22:08] <Josh_Soref> ... and closing Web Notifications
  1816. # [22:08] <Josh_Soref> shepazu: I'd like to here why
  1817. # [22:09] <Josh_Soref> anne: the rationale would be that it's very hard to move it forward within the scope of Web Notifications
  1818. # [22:09] <Josh_Soref> ... the editor is overworked
  1819. # [22:09] <Josh_Soref> ... it's a very small group, I think 6 people
  1820. # [22:09] <Josh_Soref> ... not enough to pay attention
  1821. # [22:09] <Josh_Soref> ArtB: I should have noted that before the Web Notification WG was formed
  1822. # [22:10] <Josh_Soref> ... some members opposed in Member Confidential way to it being added to the Web Apps WG
  1823. # [22:10] <Josh_Soref> ... I remind people that they were Member Confidential
  1824. # [22:10] <Josh_Soref> shepazu: speaking as staff contact, I don't think it's that easy to find editors here
  1825. # [22:10] <Josh_Soref> anne: I could use chair time
  1826. # [22:10] * Joins: euhrhane (ericu@63.145.238.4)
  1827. # [22:11] * Parts: arronei (arronei@63.145.238.4)
  1828. # [22:11] * Joins: mmielke (mmielke@63.145.238.4)
  1829. # [22:11] <Josh_Soref> Marcos: can we take a poll of who would implement the spec?
  1830. # [22:11] <Josh_Soref> ArtB: who is actually interested in implementing this spec?
  1831. # [22:11] * Joins: chsiao (chatzilla@63.145.238.4)
  1832. # [22:11] <Josh_Soref> ArtB: Google, Apple, Opera, Mozilla
  1833. # [22:12] <Josh_Soref> adrianba: I didn't commit, because often we don't talk about things we're going to do, until we do them
  1834. # [22:12] * Quits: DKA (dka@63.145.238.4) (Client exited)
  1835. # [22:12] <Josh_Soref> ... and when we do say we're interesting, that isn't a binding commitment either
  1836. # [22:12] <Josh_Soref> shepazu: i'd like to repeat that we tried before, and i don't think it will work
  1837. # [22:12] <Josh_Soref> ... this time
  1838. # [22:13] <Josh_Soref> chaals: Opera would be happy with it being here
  1839. # [22:13] * Joins: richt (richt@63.145.238.4)
  1840. # [22:13] <Josh_Soref> ... but we expect it to fail again
  1841. # [22:13] * plh wonders why we're not asking for objection to add it into webapps charter?
  1842. # [22:13] <Josh_Soref> ArtB: The chairs tend to think that if we made the proposal to add it to the charter
  1843. # [22:13] <Josh_Soref> ... that it would fail due to a formal objection
  1844. # [22:14] <Josh_Soref> chaals: we will put up the proposal to merging Web Notifications subject to Web Notifications being amenable
  1845. # [22:14] <Josh_Soref> Topic: Charter/DOM Mutations
  1846. # [22:14] <anne> euh used to be called "Mutation Events"
  1847. # [22:15] <MikeSmith> q?
  1848. # [22:15] * Zakim sees Suresh on the speaker queue
  1849. # [22:15] <Josh_Soref> ArtB: from the perspective of the current charter
  1850. # [22:15] <Josh_Soref> ... There was a deliverable of "ADMN"
  1851. # [22:15] <Josh_Soref> ... there was a thread from adam klein
  1852. # [22:15] * Josh_Soref spell fix?
  1853. # [22:15] <Josh_Soref> ArtB: from the charter perspective, how do we move forward
  1854. # [22:15] * heycam Adam Klein is correct
  1855. # [22:15] <Josh_Soref> ... is this a new specification, or do we add to dom4?
  1856. # [22:16] <Josh_Soref> anne: do we have to specify where it goes in the charter?
  1857. # [22:16] <Josh_Soref> ... as long as we say we're going to do it
  1858. # [22:16] <Josh_Soref> shepazu: I don't think that's a requirement
  1859. # [22:16] <Josh_Soref> ... we just need to clarify that we will do that work
  1860. # [22:16] <Josh_Soref> heycam: do we need a specific name in the charter?
  1861. # [22:16] * dom "bikesheddy"
  1862. # [22:17] * Joins: dino (dino@63.145.238.4)
  1863. # [22:17] <Josh_Soref> chaals: we need "managing changes to the dom and how they happen"
  1864. # [22:17] <heycam> s/managing/monitoring/
  1865. # [22:17] <dom> s/the dom/the DOM/
  1866. # [22:17] <MikeSmith> rniwa, http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ime-api/raw-file/tip/Overview.html
  1867. # [22:17] <Josh_Soref> RESOLUTION: add "monitoring changes to the DOM and how they happen" to the charter"
  1868. # [22:17] * dom would rather Web Apps didn't on changes to himself
  1869. # [22:17] <Josh_Soref> Topic: Charter/XHR
  1870. # [22:17] <rniwa> MikeSmith: thanks
  1871. # [22:17] * dom s/didn't/didn't work/
  1872. # [22:18] <Josh_Soref> anne: basically everyone is focusing on XHR2
  1873. # [22:18] <Josh_Soref> ... I don't think that it makes sense to maintain version 1
  1874. # [22:18] <Josh_Soref> ... the effort far exceeds any imaginable benefit
  1875. # [22:18] <Josh_Soref> ... no one is focused on getting it finished
  1876. # [22:18] <Josh_Soref> adrianba: I agree with anne on this specific case
  1877. # [22:18] <Josh_Soref> ... I'd like to avoid setting a precedent
  1878. # [22:19] <Josh_Soref> ... but for this case, I think it makes sense to stop working on level 1
  1879. # [22:19] <Josh_Soref> sicking: I don't have a specific preference
  1880. # [22:19] <Josh_Soref> ... but I would kind of like to see it shipped
  1881. # [22:19] <Josh_Soref> ... if we could do that in a short order
  1882. # [22:19] <Josh_Soref> anne: Last summer, summer of 2010
  1883. # [22:19] <Josh_Soref> ... I wrote the spec, I wrote the test suite
  1884. # [22:19] <Josh_Soref> ... and no one followed up, none of the implementers
  1885. # [22:19] <Josh_Soref> chaals: like adrianba, I think it's a bad precedent
  1886. # [22:20] <Josh_Soref> ... to not ship specifications, that are already implemented and done
  1887. # [22:20] <Josh_Soref> ... anne works on a lot of things, Opera would much rather he work on XHR2, than level 1
  1888. # [22:20] <Josh_Soref> ... as chair,
  1889. # [22:20] <Josh_Soref> ... does someone feel like we all do, and feel like finishing it?
  1890. # [22:21] <Josh_Soref> Marcos: why don't we just drop the '2' from XHR spec?
  1891. # [22:21] * Josh_Soref ArtB can you cmd-+ that should increase the font size
  1892. # [22:21] <Josh_Soref> chaals: there is an XHR1, it's probably pretty much done
  1893. # [22:22] * ArtB Josh_Soref I tried that (several times) and no joy :-(
  1894. # [22:22] <Josh_Soref> ... I don't see much point in playing a numbers game
  1895. # [22:22] * Josh_Soref sighs
  1896. # [22:22] * plh "I have the microphone and I'm much bigger than you are" :)
  1897. # [22:22] * Joins: Tom_ (tgambet@mcclure.w3.org)
  1898. # [22:22] <Josh_Soref> [ What prevents us from it being done? ]
  1899. # [22:22] * Ms2ger wonders who that was
  1900. # [22:22] <Josh_Soref> anne: lack of implementers trying to pass the test suite
  1901. # [22:22] * dglazkov wonders who Ms2ger is
  1902. # [22:22] * Ms2ger That's something I know and you don't :)
  1903. # [22:22] <Josh_Soref> anne: it is not done, it just requires maintenance costs
  1904. # [22:22] * darobin ArtB: maybe get another IRC client? (it works in Chatzilla for instance)
  1905. # [22:23] <Josh_Soref> Marcos: why is XHR2 dependent on XHR1
  1906. # [22:23] <Josh_Soref> anne: XHR2 isn't dependent on XHR1
  1907. # [22:23] <Josh_Soref> Marcos: so kill it!
  1908. # [22:23] * dglazkov Ms2ger :`(
  1909. # [22:23] <dom> but are there other specs depending on XHR1?
  1910. # [22:23] <dom> we should probably check before taking such a decision
  1911. # [22:23] <Josh_Soref> shepazu: is the test suite complete?
  1912. # [22:24] <Josh_Soref> anne: the test suite is pretty much complete
  1913. # [22:24] * Joins: jrossi2 (jrossi@63.145.238.4)
  1914. # [22:24] <Josh_Soref> shepazu: why aren't people passing the tests?
  1915. # [22:24] <Josh_Soref> adrianba: i think there are people that are passing all the tests
  1916. # [22:24] <Josh_Soref> ... i think the changes that are required to pass the tests are probably not high priorities to the vendors
  1917. # [22:24] <Josh_Soref> ... since the web kind of works
  1918. # [22:24] <Josh_Soref> q+ to ask if adrianba meant "pass" or "run"
  1919. # [22:24] * Zakim sees Suresh, Josh_Soref on the speaker queue
  1920. # [22:25] * Josh_Soref asks Suresh if he's on the queue
  1921. # [22:25] * Josh_Soref asks bryan to ask Suresh
  1922. # [22:25] <Josh_Soref> shepazu: if we can't get two implementations to pass the test
  1923. # [22:25] <Josh_Soref> ... then we remove that requirement from the charter
  1924. # [22:25] <Josh_Soref> chaals: does anyone object such that they're willing to do the work
  1925. # [22:26] <Josh_Soref> shepazu: i'm willing to review the work necessary
  1926. # [22:26] <Josh_Soref> anne: i'd object to a watered down version of the spec
  1927. # [22:26] <Josh_Soref> Marcos: i would object to having a spec with duplicate text
  1928. # [22:26] * Quits: Tom (tgambet@mcclure.w3.org) (Ping timeout)
  1929. # [22:26] <Josh_Soref> ... on the grounds of having confusion
  1930. # [22:27] <Josh_Soref> shepazu: that's the situation we're in now
  1931. # [22:27] <Josh_Soref> Marcos: that's a process problem
  1932. # [22:27] * sangwhan wonders if there is a spec that *doesn't* have duplicate text
  1933. # [22:27] <darin> is this the test suite: http://tc.labs.opera.com/apis/XMLHttpRequest/testrunner.htm ?
  1934. # [22:27] <anne> My main point is that a specification should be complete and not leave out all kinds of requirements
  1935. # [22:27] <Josh_Soref> chaals: we have a deliverable
  1936. # [22:27] <Josh_Soref> ... that is of risk of being taken further
  1937. # [22:27] <anne> darin, yeah, one of the copies
  1938. # [22:27] <Josh_Soref> ... and having objections raised later
  1939. # [22:27] <anne> not sure if my harness works a 100%, been a while
  1940. # [22:27] <darin> anne, ok... looks like chrome and firefox fail a lot of tests
  1941. # [22:28] <anne> yeah, mostly edge cases
  1942. # [22:28] <Josh_Soref> chaals: it seems clear that we don't have anyone who is going to finish the spec
  1943. # [22:28] * Quits: tantek (tantek@63.145.238.4) (Quit: tantek)
  1944. # [22:28] <Josh_Soref> ... with the possible exception of shepazu
  1945. # [22:28] <fjh> rrsagent, generate minutes
  1946. # [22:28] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-webapps-minutes.html fjh
  1947. # [22:28] <Josh_Soref> chaals: so are we happy to make the spec...
  1948. # [22:29] <Josh_Soref> ifette: "if the spec got finished, would all the browsers care, and go back, and become fully compliant? if not, then it doesn't seem worth doing"
  1949. # [22:29] <Josh_Soref> sicking: it's at the point where all that needs to happen is implementation
  1950. # [22:29] <Josh_Soref> dom: to implement XHR2, XHR1 needs to be done
  1951. # [22:29] <Josh_Soref> mjs: I don't have a strong opinion about carrying forward
  1952. # [22:30] <Josh_Soref> ... but i'd rather a strong opinion to not have it in limbo
  1953. # [22:30] <Josh_Soref> adrianba: I agree with mjs
  1954. # [22:30] <Josh_Soref> ... the value of completing an XHR1
  1955. # [22:30] * Quits: sangwhan (sangwhan@63.145.238.4) (Client exited)
  1956. # [22:30] <Josh_Soref> ... that describes currently implementations with whatever vagueness is necessary
  1957. # [22:30] <Josh_Soref> ... getting that to REC is when the IPR obligations kick in
  1958. # [22:30] <Josh_Soref> chaals: that's important
  1959. # [22:30] <Josh_Soref> ... how many organizations in this room make browsers?
  1960. # [22:30] <Josh_Soref> ... because it's more than 5
  1961. # [22:31] <Ms2ger> [ Amaya ]
  1962. # [22:31] <Josh_Soref> ... Nokia makes, RIM, W3C (Amaya)
  1963. # [22:31] <Josh_Soref> s/makes/makes one/
  1964. # [22:31] <Josh_Soref> ... there is some value to other future vendors
  1965. # [22:31] <Josh_Soref> ... there is some value
  1966. # [22:31] <Josh_Soref> ... if we include XHR1 as a deliverable, not that it does not have an active editor, and may be abandoned
  1967. # [22:31] * Joins: sangwhan (sangwhan@63.145.238.4)
  1968. # [22:31] <Josh_Soref> ... does anyone object?
  1969. # [22:32] <Josh_Soref> mjs: I'd object to keeping it in limbo
  1970. # [22:32] <Josh_Soref> anne: I'd end up maintaining it
  1971. # [22:32] * Joins: DKA (dka@63.145.238.4)
  1972. # [22:32] <Josh_Soref> shepazu: If i don't do it in 6 months, I won't do it
  1973. # [22:32] <Josh_Soref> chaals: does anyone object to just dropping it?
  1974. # [22:32] <Josh_Soref> bryan: does that mean XHR2 will never be finished?
  1975. # [22:33] * smaug hasn't cared about XHR1 for ages
  1976. # [22:33] <Josh_Soref> chaals: no, it means the things that need to be done in XHR1 won't be done until we finish the XHR2 spec
  1977. # [22:33] <Josh_Soref> PaulK: how much of XHR1 is just a subset of XHR2?
  1978. # [22:33] <Josh_Soref> [ Everything ]
  1979. # [22:33] * Joins: tcelik (tantek_@63.145.238.4)
  1980. # [22:33] <Josh_Soref> ... I don't understand this talk
  1981. # [22:33] <Josh_Soref> ... the problem is you don't have implementations or people willing to do testing
  1982. # [22:34] * Joins: tantek (tantek@63.145.238.4)
  1983. # [22:34] <Josh_Soref> anne: comments still come in
  1984. # [22:34] <Josh_Soref> .. for instance defining Garbage Collection
  1985. # [22:34] <Josh_Soref> s/../.../
  1986. # [22:34] * Joins: Tom (tgambet@mcclure.w3.org)
  1987. # [22:34] <Josh_Soref> ... but since XHR1 and XHR2 define events [or similar?] differently
  1988. # [22:34] <Josh_Soref> ... then editing it isn't that simple
  1989. # [22:34] <Josh_Soref> ... just because there's a CR version listed on the W3C page
  1990. # [22:35] <Josh_Soref> ... doesn't mean it's the latest version
  1991. # [22:35] <Josh_Soref> ... the latest version is the editor's draft
  1992. # [22:35] * Quits: tcelik (tantek_@63.145.238.4) (Quit: tcelik)
  1993. # [22:35] <Josh_Soref> mjs: for almost XHR's history, there have been two versions
  1994. # [22:35] <Josh_Soref> ... one to spec the original behavior
  1995. # [22:35] <Josh_Soref> ... and one to define the new cool features
  1996. # [22:35] * Joins: tcelik (tantek_@63.145.238.4)
  1997. # [22:35] <Josh_Soref> ... everyone interested was interested in the latter
  1998. # [22:35] * Joins: youenn (chatzilla@63.145.238.4)
  1999. # [22:35] * Quits: tobie (tobie@63.145.238.4) (Quit: tobie)
  2000. # [22:35] <Josh_Soref> ... in retrospect, maybe this was a mistake
  2001. # [22:36] <Josh_Soref> chaals: mjs maintains his objection, shepazu withdrew his
  2002. # [22:36] <Josh_Soref> dom: one thing to check, is to see if anyone has a normative dependency on XHR1
  2003. # [22:36] <Josh_Soref> chaals: issues like that I expect to come out during chartering
  2004. # [22:36] * Quits: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.169) (Quit: tlr)
  2005. # [22:36] <Josh_Soref> dom: chartering is a messy process
  2006. # [22:36] <dom> s/messy/AC/
  2007. # [22:37] <Josh_Soref> ACTION chaals to make sure that the webapps process is taking to the attention of the Chairs
  2008. # [22:37] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  2009. # [22:37] <trackbot> Created ACTION-629 - Make sure that the webapps process is taking to the attention of the Chairs [on Charles McCathieNevile - due 2011-11-07].
  2010. # [22:37] <Josh_Soref> RESOLUTION: Drop XHR1 from our deliverables
  2011. # [22:37] <Josh_Soref> Topic: Charter/Parsing and Serialization
  2012. # [22:38] * Josh_Soref page Ms2ger
  2013. # [22:38] <Ms2ger> Hi
  2014. # [22:38] * Josh_Soref please speak?
  2015. # [22:38] * Quits: Tom_ (tgambet@mcclure.w3.org) (Ping timeout)
  2016. # [22:38] * Josh_Soref or do you want someone to read for you?
  2017. # [22:38] <Josh_Soref> chaals: is there any objection to adding this to our charter?
  2018. # [22:38] <Ms2ger> Sorry, my connection is spotty
  2019. # [22:38] * Josh_Soref we will have heycam read for you
  2020. # [22:38] * Josh_Soref please speak
  2021. # [22:39] * Josh_Soref by typing, heycam will proxy
  2022. # [22:39] * shepazu thinks Ms2ger is an AI
  2023. # [22:39] * Ms2ger shepazu: beep
  2024. # [22:39] <Josh_Soref> chaals: does anyone object? does anyone propose that we add the work?
  2025. # [22:39] * dom thinks Web Apps chartering discussion sound like a werewolves game today
  2026. # [22:39] <Josh_Soref> chaals: does Ms2ger plan to do the work?
  2027. # [22:39] * Josh_Soref Ms2ger please just write reply :)
  2028. # [22:39] <Ms2ger> It doesn't matter to me, but I don't plan to put a lot of time in W3C-specific stuff
  2029. # [22:40] * Joins: ifette_ (ifette@216.239.45.130)
  2030. # [22:40] * Quits: davida (davida@63.245.220.240) (Quit: davida)
  2031. # [22:40] * Joins: davida (davida@63.245.220.240)
  2032. # [22:40] <Ms2ger> The spec is in the public domain, if someone wants to push it at the W3C, that's fine with me
  2033. # [22:41] <Josh_Soref> shepazu: is it our policy that we only add specs that we have editors for?
  2034. # [22:41] <Josh_Soref> chaals: we don't have that policy
  2035. # [22:41] <Ms2ger> I plan to keep doing the technical editing, but it's rather low-priority for me
  2036. # [22:41] <Josh_Soref> ... we tend to try to have an editor
  2037. # [22:41] <tantek> Ms2ger - what do you think of placing the spec in a Community Group? w3.org/community
  2038. # [22:41] <Josh_Soref> ArtB: we have some new stuff, web intents
  2039. # [22:42] <Josh_Soref> ... preferably we'd have at least two vendors interested in implementing it
  2040. # [22:42] <Josh_Soref> sicking: i don't think we'll have a shortage of implementations
  2041. # [22:42] <Josh_Soref> ... of course that was the case with XHR1
  2042. # [22:42] <Ms2ger> tantek, don't feel like spending time on that
  2043. # [22:42] <weinig> /msg anne
  2044. # [22:42] <Josh_Soref> chaals: and look at how useful that was
  2045. # [22:42] * Quits: ifette (ifette@63.145.238.4) (Ping timeout)
  2046. # [22:42] * ifette_ is now known as ifette
  2047. # [22:42] <Josh_Soref> s|/msg anne||
  2048. # [22:42] <tantek> Ms2ger - I sympathize.
  2049. # [22:43] <Josh_Soref> ArtB: i don't object adding it
  2050. # [22:43] * Quits: Tom (tgambet@mcclure.w3.org) (Ping timeout)
  2051. # [22:43] * Joins: Tom (tgambet@mcclure.w3.org)
  2052. # [22:43] <Josh_Soref> chaals: my preference is not to add stuff without an editor
  2053. # [22:43] <Josh_Soref> shepazu: i think this specification would be of particular interest to the SVG WG
  2054. # [22:43] <Josh_Soref> ... as someone from the SVG WG, i'd like to see this in the group that works on DOM
  2055. # [22:43] * Joins: Rossen (Rossen@63.145.238.4)
  2056. # [22:43] <Josh_Soref> ACTION shepazu to ask the SVG WG for editors
  2057. # [22:43] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  2058. # [22:43] <trackbot> Created ACTION-630 - Ask the SVG WG for editors [on Doug Schepers - due 2011-11-07].
  2059. # [22:44] * Quits: darin (darin@216.239.45.130) (Ping timeout)
  2060. # [22:44] <Josh_Soref> RESOLUTION: Add Parsing and Serialization to Charter
  2061. # [22:44] <Josh_Soref> Topic: Charter/Editing
  2062. # [22:44] <Josh_Soref> ArtB: I know Aryeh was working on Editing
  2063. # [22:44] <Josh_Soref> ... but he didn't make a commitment
  2064. # [22:44] <Josh_Soref> ... do we let him continue working in the CG
  2065. # [22:44] <Josh_Soref> ... do we pick it up now, pick it up later?
  2066. # [22:45] * heycam Ryosuke
  2067. # [22:45] <Josh_Soref> ryosuke: i'd like to see it in the charter
  2068. # [22:45] <Josh_Soref> ArtB: aryeh felt that having it in a CG to do work forward
  2069. # [22:45] <Josh_Soref> ... but he didn't object to this WG finalizing it
  2070. # [22:46] <Josh_Soref> chaals: in the absence of someone driving it in Web Apps
  2071. # [22:46] * Quits: krisk (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  2072. # [22:46] <Josh_Soref> ... I think it would be a bad idea
  2073. # [22:46] <Josh_Soref> ... especially without the resources
  2074. # [22:46] * Quits: plh (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  2075. # [22:46] <Josh_Soref> Josh_Soref: How is this any different from the previous charter item?
  2076. # [22:46] <smaug> #whatwg: AryehGregor "Microsoft Corp. has joined the HTML Editing APIs Community Group"
  2077. # [22:47] * Quits: youenn (chatzilla@63.145.238.4) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 6.0/20110811165603])
  2078. # [22:47] <Josh_Soref> chaals: I am proposing that we reject Editing APIs under similar circumstances
  2079. # [22:47] <Josh_Soref> ... given that there is a CG
  2080. # [22:47] <Josh_Soref> ... I feel we should let them alone given they already have a CG and we aren't likely to add much
  2081. # [22:48] <Josh_Soref> ryosuke: there's a difference in complexity
  2082. # [22:48] <Josh_Soref> ... Editing is much more complicated
  2083. # [22:48] <Josh_Soref> ... I think it will take a couple of years before it's ready
  2084. # [22:48] * Ms2ger would object to calling HTML parsing simple :)
  2085. # [22:49] <Josh_Soref> adrianba: Microsoft just joined the CG with the intent of helping it there
  2086. # [22:49] <Josh_Soref> chaals: does anyone propose that we move editing into the WG?
  2087. # [22:49] <Josh_Soref> RESOLUTION: We will not move Editing into this WG
  2088. # [22:49] <Josh_Soref> ArtB: MikeSmith asked me to add IME
  2089. # [22:49] <Josh_Soref> ... and I had a generic item related to work mode
  2090. # [22:49] * heycam thinks IMEI should be IME
  2091. # [22:50] * Josh_Soref MikeSmith ??
  2092. # [22:50] * sangwhan notes typo in agenda s/IMEI/IME/
  2093. # [22:50] <Josh_Soref> MikeSmith: I was hoping ifette was going to be here
  2094. # [22:51] <Josh_Soref> Topic: Charter/IME
  2095. # [22:51] * stpeter agrees that IMEI = International Mobile Equipment Identity
  2096. # [22:51] <Josh_Soref> MikeSmith: if you type on a computer in Japanese/Chinese, and to some extent Koreans
  2097. # [22:51] <Josh_Soref> s/Koreans/Korean/
  2098. # [22:51] * Josh_Soref sighs
  2099. # [22:51] * Quits: stkim (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  2100. # [22:51] * Quits: jcdufourd (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  2101. # [22:51] <Josh_Soref> ... You type in Latin, and then you press a (compose) key to convert the text into a final character
  2102. # [22:52] <Josh_Soref> ... There are times when you're using a web application that you want the web application to be aware that you're using an IME
  2103. # [22:52] * Quits: Gopal (graghava@63.145.238.4) (Ping timeout)
  2104. # [22:52] <jrossi2> q+
  2105. # [22:52] * Zakim sees Suresh, Josh_Soref, jrossi on the speaker queue
  2106. # [22:52] <Josh_Soref> ... The use case is when you want to do completion
  2107. # [22:52] <Josh_Soref> q- Suresh
  2108. # [22:52] * Zakim sees Josh_Soref, jrossi on the speaker queue
  2109. # [22:52] <Josh_Soref> q- Josh_Soref
  2110. # [22:52] * Zakim sees jrossi on the speaker queue
  2111. # [22:52] * Quits: a12u (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  2112. # [22:52] <Josh_Soref> ... The IME is a platform level application running alongside the browser
  2113. # [22:52] <Josh_Soref> ... The browser would need to have access to the system IME
  2114. # [22:53] <Josh_Soref> ... and expose it to web applications
  2115. # [22:53] <Josh_Soref> ... web applications do not have access today to the system IME
  2116. # [22:53] <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  2117. # [22:53] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-webapps-minutes.html Ms2ger
  2118. # [22:53] <jrossi2> q- jrossi
  2119. # [22:53] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2120. # [22:53] <Josh_Soref> q+ Josh_Soref to note that IMEs are incredibly buggy, crash prone and such exposure is a security hazard
  2121. # [22:53] * Zakim sees Josh_Soref on the speaker queue
  2122. # [22:53] <Josh_Soref> MikeSmith: it's very hard to explain this to people unfamiliar with IMEs
  2123. # [22:54] <Josh_Soref> ... a video showing this demoing web suggested autocomplete
  2124. # [22:54] <Josh_Soref> ... it's pretty simple, but it isn't self explanatory
  2125. # [22:54] <ArtB> … IME spec: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ime-api/raw-file/tip/Overview.html
  2126. # [22:54] * sangwhan quite a lot of the time, there is no way for the UA to aggregate the necessary information from the IME?
  2127. # [22:54] <Josh_Soref> chaals: given two google editors
  2128. # [22:54] <Josh_Soref> ... is google proposing that it go into web apps?
  2129. # [22:54] <Josh_Soref> ryosuke: yes, we'd like it to be in this WG
  2130. # [22:54] * Quits: adrianba (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  2131. # [22:55] <Josh_Soref> ... if you're using Google Docs, then a web browser doesn't know that you're editing
  2132. # [22:55] <Josh_Soref> ... and thus can't enable IME
  2133. # [22:55] <MikeSmith> q?
  2134. # [22:55] * Zakim sees Josh_Soref on the speaker queue
  2135. # [22:55] <mjs> q+
  2136. # [22:55] * Zakim sees Josh_Soref, mjs on the speaker queue
  2137. # [22:55] <dom> ack Josh_Soref
  2138. # [22:55] <Zakim> Josh_Soref, you wanted to note that IMEs are incredibly buggy, crash prone and such exposure is a security hazard
  2139. # [22:55] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
  2140. # [22:55] <Josh_Soref> ... Google would like to simplify this so that IME can be turned on and off
  2141. # [22:56] <dom> Josh_Soref: IME are incredibly buggy, crash prone, and such exposure is a security hazard
  2142. # [22:56] <heycam> Josh_Soref: I'd like to note that I've worked on Mozilla for >10 yrs, one thing I looked at was crashes
  2143. # [22:56] * Quits: smaug (chatzilla@82.181.151.161) (Ping timeout)
  2144. # [22:56] <heycam> ... got lots from X11 IME
  2145. # [22:56] * dom leaves it to heycam :)
  2146. # [22:56] <heycam> ... more recently I worked at Nokia on Maemo, we had an IME, not shipped, but we had it
  2147. # [22:56] <heycam> ... it also wasn't particualrly wonderful
  2148. # [22:56] * Quits: myakura_ (myakura@63.145.238.4) (Client exited)
  2149. # [22:56] <MikeSmith> q?
  2150. # [22:56] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
  2151. # [22:56] <heycam> ... more recently we had some great crashes frmo a web based IME in windows, from mozilla
  2152. # [22:56] <heycam> ... the IME is actually cloud based
  2153. # [22:57] <heycam> ... when their cloud went down, everyone using that IME started crashing
  2154. # [22:57] <heycam> ... any time we expose system level things to the web, it hasn't had experience with bad inputs
  2155. # [22:57] <heycam> ... nobody thinks you'll get bad input, and that'sb ad
  2156. # [22:57] <MikeSmith> q+ to say that the IMEs are already exposed -- as Niwa-san noted
  2157. # [22:57] * Zakim sees mjs, MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  2158. # [22:57] <heycam> s/sb ad/s bad/
  2159. # [22:57] <Josh_Soref> mjs: one thing i'd like to see more clearly explained
  2160. # [22:57] * Quits: jeff (Jeff@mcclure.w3.org) (Ping timeout)
  2161. # [22:57] <Josh_Soref> ... is the specific use cases for this api
  2162. # [22:57] <MikeSmith> q+ Niwa-san
  2163. # [22:57] * Zakim sees mjs, MikeSmith, Niwa-san on the speaker queue
  2164. # [22:57] <Josh_Soref> ... I don't have the experience that Josh_Soref does
  2165. # [22:58] <MikeSmith> q- later
  2166. # [22:58] * Zakim sees mjs, Niwa-san, MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  2167. # [22:58] <Josh_Soref> ... but i don't know there's much need
  2168. # [22:58] <Josh_Soref> ... it sounds like there's a work around
  2169. # [22:58] <Josh_Soref> ... the main downside is that it's inconvenient, or a hack
  2170. # [22:58] <mjs> ack mjs
  2171. # [22:58] * Zakim sees Niwa-san, MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  2172. # [22:58] <Josh_Soref> ... that doesn't seem like a big deal
  2173. # [22:58] <Josh_Soref> ifette: i think there's a lot of reasons for adding the IME api
  2174. # [22:58] <Josh_Soref> ... if you look at google instant
  2175. # [22:58] <MikeSmith> ack Niwa-san
  2176. # [22:58] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  2177. # [22:58] <MikeSmith> q-
  2178. # [22:59] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2179. # [22:59] <Josh_Soref> ... having access to the list
  2180. # [22:59] <Josh_Soref> q+ Josh_Soref to talk about passwords in Mameo5
  2181. # [22:59] * Zakim sees Josh_Soref on the speaker queue
  2182. # [22:59] <Josh_Soref> ... having access to state makes it better
  2183. # [22:59] <Josh_Soref> ... gives a chance to give better results
  2184. # [22:59] <Josh_Soref> ... better services
  2185. # [22:59] * Quits: Tom (tgambet@mcclure.w3.org) (Ping timeout)
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  2187. # [22:59] <Josh_Soref> mjs: I think it would be good if someone could give a list of use cases where someone could do things you couldn't do today
  2188. # [22:59] <Josh_Soref> ... from skimming the document, i couldn't figure out what you could do
  2189. # [23:00] * Quits: SungOk_You (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  2190. # [23:00] <Josh_Soref> ... that you couldn't do otherwise
  2191. # [23:00] * Quits: vgalindo (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  2192. # [23:00] <Josh_Soref> chaals: is that an objection?
  2193. # [23:00] <Josh_Soref> ... an objection until you get further information?
  2194. # [23:00] * Joins: jeff (Jeff@mcclure.w3.org)
  2195. # [23:00] <Josh_Soref> mjs: i think it would be better for the WG to have more information
  2196. # [23:00] <Josh_Soref> ryosuke: could we add the item to the charter
  2197. # [23:01] * Quits: shanec (mixedpuppy@63.245.220.240) (Quit: shanec)
  2198. # [23:01] <Josh_Soref> chaals: we could add the item, we could talk about it before or after, we could add it next time
  2199. # [23:01] <Josh_Soref> ArtB: can someone take an ACTION to address mjs
  2200. # [23:01] <Josh_Soref> ifette: we can certainly come up with that list of use cases
  2201. # [23:01] * Joins: a12u (androirc@63.145.238.4)
  2202. # [23:01] <Josh_Soref> ifette: I can make sure we to get someone from our organization to provide this use case
  2203. # [23:02] * Joins: Tom (tgambet@mcclure.w3.org)
  2204. # [23:02] <Josh_Soref> ... If we're going to kill editing, we're going to need to get access
  2205. # [23:02] * Quits: a12u (androirc@63.145.238.4) (Connection reset by peer)
  2206. # [23:02] <Josh_Soref> shepazu: we're not going to kill editing
  2207. # [23:02] <Josh_Soref> ack me
  2208. # [23:02] <Zakim> Josh_Soref, you wanted to talk about passwords in Mameo5
  2209. # [23:02] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2210. # [23:02] <MikeSmith> q?
  2211. # [23:02] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2212. # [23:02] * anne wonders what Ian Fette thinks is wrong about doing Editing in the CG
  2213. # [23:02] <heycam> Josh_Soref: the other thing is that for Maemo 5 there was a time when the input method would warn everything you type into the xterm
  2214. # [23:02] <heycam> ... including when you typed ssh passwords
  2215. # [23:02] <heycam> ... whatever random letters you type into the browser
  2216. # [23:03] <heycam> ... the solution was that IMEs were turned off entirely
  2217. # [23:03] * Quits: stpeter (stpeter@207.210.219.225) (Quit: leaving)
  2218. # [23:03] <heycam> ... having access as a web page to things that I might type, e.g. if I'm on a form, all the completion things in the forsm -- I think Opera did a good job with the wand -- otherwise all your form information and CC numebrs would automatically be filled in
  2219. # [23:03] <Josh_Soref> ifette: we all agree there are potential security considerations to take into account
  2220. # [23:03] <Josh_Soref> s/numebrs/numbers/
  2221. # [23:04] <Josh_Soref> ... we have a team from the tokyo office
  2222. # [23:04] <Josh_Soref> ... it's important for affected usrers
  2223. # [23:04] <MikeSmith> q?
  2224. # [23:04] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2225. # [23:04] <Josh_Soref> s/usrers/users/
  2226. # [23:04] * jrossi2 thinks the technical feedback has nothing to do with the charter
  2227. # [23:04] * Joins: Will (ipapaya@63.145.238.4)
  2228. # [23:04] <Josh_Soref> shepazu: this isn't a place for technical feedback
  2229. # [23:04] <darobin> +1 to having IME
  2230. # [23:04] <Josh_Soref> sicking: that's fine
  2231. # [23:04] <Josh_Soref> q?
  2232. # [23:04] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2233. # [23:05] <Josh_Soref> chaals: is there an objection to adding this to the charter?
  2234. # [23:05] <Josh_Soref> sicking: before we were talking about seeing use cases before the charter
  2235. # [23:05] <Josh_Soref> chaals: you could cut it out during chartering
  2236. # [23:05] <Josh_Soref> sicking: i'd like to see use cases before committing to it
  2237. # [23:05] <Josh_Soref> ... if the use cases are editing and canvas
  2238. # [23:06] <Josh_Soref> ArtB: i think the charter is good until spring
  2239. # [23:06] <Josh_Soref> ... historically it takes a long time to get our charter added
  2240. # [23:06] <Josh_Soref> s/added/updated/
  2241. # [23:06] * Quits: DKA (dka@63.145.238.4) (Client exited)
  2242. # [23:06] <Josh_Soref> ... there's a 4 week AC review
  2243. # [23:06] * Quits: jeff (Jeff@mcclure.w3.org) (Quit: Leaving)
  2244. # [23:06] <Josh_Soref> ... we need several weeks for WG discussion
  2245. # [23:06] <Josh_Soref> ... the earliest to the AC would be Jan or Feb
  2246. # [23:06] <Josh_Soref> chaals: is there any objection to not putting this in the charter now
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  2249. # [23:07] <Josh_Soref> ... given we would put it before the WG before the end of the year
  2250. # [23:07] * Joins: Ruinan (Ruinan@63.145.238.4)
  2251. # [23:07] <dom> shepazu, adding a link to http://www.w3.org/2010/webapps/charter/ from http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/charter/ would be useful
  2252. # [23:07] <Josh_Soref> ... with an action on chairs to put it before the group
  2253. # [23:07] <Josh_Soref> ... ?
  2254. # [23:07] <Josh_Soref> shepazu: i'd rather it be in the Charter proposal
  2255. # [23:07] <Josh_Soref> ... given that it could be cut later
  2256. # [23:07] <Josh_Soref> mjs: i'd object
  2257. # [23:07] * Josh_Soref ArtB : this is fun!
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  2260. # [23:08] <Josh_Soref> mjs: i'd like to be informed enough about this
  2261. # [23:08] * Quits: Kihong_Kwon (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  2262. # [23:08] <Josh_Soref> ... it seems like that wouldn't take a lot of time
  2263. # [23:08] <Josh_Soref> adrianba: I agree with mjs
  2264. # [23:08] <Josh_Soref> ifette: there's so much time to object
  2265. # [23:08] <Josh_Soref> ... if you look over the use cases
  2266. # [23:08] <Josh_Soref> ... there's plenty of time to object
  2267. # [23:09] <Josh_Soref> ... I could list use cases
  2268. # [23:09] * Quits: shepazu (shepazu@128.30.52.169) (Quit: shepazu)
  2269. # [23:09] <Josh_Soref> ... there is a large class of users who are not well served by a number of sites
  2270. # [23:09] <Josh_Soref> ... everyone who is objecting
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  2273. # [23:10] <Josh_Soref> ... yes, we could have done a better job of preparing our case
  2274. # [23:10] <Josh_Soref> ... but the objectors aren't affected
  2275. # [23:10] * Quits: sangwhan (sangwhan@63.145.238.4) (Connection reset by peer)
  2276. # [23:10] <Josh_Soref> mjs: i believe people should be required to present their case
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  2280. # [23:10] * Josh_Soref was that weinig ?
  2281. # [23:11] <Josh_Soref> chaals: like mjs, i object the implications
  2282. # [23:11] <weinig> yes
  2283. # [23:11] <Josh_Soref> s/mjs/weinig/
  2284. # [23:11] <Josh_Soref> s/yes//
  2285. # [23:11] <Josh_Soref> chaals: if you're willing to do the legwork
  2286. # [23:11] <Josh_Soref> ... it seems like we have 2 1/2 objections
  2287. # [23:11] <Josh_Soref> ... so it seems like you should do the legwork
  2288. # [23:12] <Josh_Soref> chaals: the concrete path forward is that we expect you to further motivate this proposal
  2289. # [23:12] <Josh_Soref> ... if you're prepared to put in the legwork
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  2292. # [23:12] <Josh_Soref> ... around mid december
  2293. # [23:12] <Josh_Soref> ... so you give us material
  2294. # [23:12] <Josh_Soref> chaals: i'll take an action for Dec 1
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  2296. # [23:12] * Ms2ger Coffee break!
  2297. # [23:12] <Josh_Soref> [ No Objections ]
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  2300. # [23:13] <Josh_Soref> ACTION ifette to talk to people at google to get more support for the proposal
  2301. # [23:13] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  2302. # [23:13] <trackbot> Created ACTION-631 - Talk to people at google to get more support for the proposal [on Ian Fette - due 2011-11-07].
  2303. # [23:13] * dom awaits the day where people objects to getting more information about a proposal :)
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  2305. # [23:13] <Josh_Soref> ACTION chaals to put IME in Charter on the discussion for Dec 1
  2306. # [23:13] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  2307. # [23:13] <trackbot> Created ACTION-632 - Put IME in Charter on the discussion for Dec 1 [on Charles McCathieNevile - due 2011-11-07].
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  2311. # [23:13] * Josh_Soref dom :)
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  2316. # [23:13] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
  2317. # [23:13] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
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  2319. # [23:13] <Zakim> -??P3
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  2321. # [23:14] * Ms2ger waves
  2322. # [23:14] * heycam bye Ms2ger
  2323. # [23:14] * Ms2ger heycam dammit, you found me!
  2324. # [23:14] * heycam :)
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  2378. # [23:48] <chaals> Scribe: chaals
  2379. # [23:49] <ArtB> ACTION: barstow should XHR1 be published as a WG Note?
  2380. # [23:49] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  2381. # [23:49] * RRSAgent records action 2
  2382. # [23:49] <trackbot> Created ACTION-633 - Should XHR1 be published as a WG Note? [on Arthur Barstow - due 2011-11-07].
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  2384. # [23:49] <chaals> Topic: Websockets
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  2387. # [23:50] <chaals> AB: We're late, and may cut into the next item. Peter will update on protocol and IETF side, we'll look at other topics, testing, future directions...
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  2389. # [23:50] <chaals> PSA: Co-director of applications at IETF
  2390. # [23:50] <chaals> ... [quick explanation of IETF structure]
  2391. # [23:51] <chaals> ... HyBi WG is a group in my area. Between IETF/W3C we have had IETF doing protocols, W3C doing APIs. (generally)
  2392. # [23:51] * Joins: krisk (IceChat77@63.145.238.4)
  2393. # [23:52] <chaals> ... Hybi has been formalising web socket protocol, Hixie - Ifette - Alexey...
  2394. # [23:52] * Josh_Soref gets to watch chaals scribe
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  2396. # [23:52] <chaals> ... and extensions, sub-protocols, and so on
  2397. # [23:52] <chaals> ... Current status is sockets protocol has been approved after last call, is in queue to be published as RFC.
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  2400. # [23:53] <chaals> ... Think we ha good coordination with W3C on the API.
  2401. # [23:53] <chaals> ... Think we want to try to coordinate better from IETF.
  2402. # [23:53] <chaals> ... Extensions - multiplexing, compression, are topics people have talked about.
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  2404. # [23:54] <chaals> ... will come forward in the next few months. Also looking at sub-protocols - I come from Jabber/XMPP, and we want to have a sub-protocol to replace long polling, there are others.
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  2406. # [23:54] <chaals> ... Once the API is finished I think we will get a lot of experience in the next few years, I foresee a cleanup version.
  2407. # [23:55] <chaals> IF: Maybe a few months...
  2408. # [23:55] * Joins: dowan (forty4@63.145.238.4)
  2409. # [23:55] <chaals> PSA: Maybe. I think we will need one at some point, anyway.
  2410. # [23:55] * Joins: jrossi2 (jrossi@63.145.238.4)
  2411. # [23:55] * Quits: dcooney (dominicc@63.145.238.4) (Client exited)
  2412. # [23:55] * Joins: dcooney (dominicc@216.239.45.130)
  2413. # [23:55] <chaals> AB: Last call for WS API ended about a week ago
  2414. # [23:56] * Quits: rniwa (rniwa@63.145.238.4) (Client exited)
  2415. # [23:56] * Joins: rniwa (rniwa@216.239.45.130)
  2416. # [23:56] <chaals> IH: 2 bugs closed, only 2 left.
  2417. # [23:56] * Joins: mmielke (mmielke@63.145.238.4)
  2418. # [23:56] * Joins: Rossen (Rossen@63.145.238.4)
  2419. # [23:56] * Joins: howard (howard_wan@63.145.238.4)
  2420. # [23:57] <chaals> AB: First looks like editorial
  2421. # [23:57] <chaals> IH: Yep.
  2422. # [23:57] <chaals> AB: 14474 been discussed quite a bit, no?
  2423. # [23:57] * Joins: sriramyadavalli (sriramyada@63.145.238.4)
  2424. # [23:58] <chaals> ... we could talk about it today. Julian submitted a comment, not exactly an objection. Some URL processing got deleted from spec, added to API - hixie can elaborate on that. We need to figure out whether it pushes us back to last call, along with closing the outstanding bug.
  2425. # [23:58] * Joins: manyoung (manyoung@63.145.238.4)
  2426. # [23:59] * Quits: James (Jameszhu@63.145.238.4) (Connection reset by peer)
  2427. # [23:59] * Quits: shepazu (shepazu@128.30.52.169) (Quit: shepazu)
  2428. # [23:59] <chaals> JS: Sounds like MS is agreeing with 14474 - curious if google has opinion.
  2429. # Session Close: Tue Nov 01 00:00:00 2011

The end :)