/irc-logs / w3c / #webapps / 2011-11-01 / end

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# Session Start: Tue Nov 01 00:00:00 2011
# Session Ident: #webapps
# [00:00] <chaals> IF: If browser sends close frame, and server has meesages in flight before it closes - do those messages get delivered?
# [00:00] <chaals> ... want to avoid half-duplex connections in protocol - one side can send but not receive. THe protocol doesn't address what happens here. Either answer would be OK (dump the messages or deliver them)
# [00:00] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@63.145.238.4)
# [00:01] <chaals> JS: And messages in buffer etc...
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# [00:01] * Parts: manyoung (manyoung@63.145.238.4)
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# [00:01] <chaals> IF: Right. We just need to agree on what we decide.
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# [00:02] <chaals> ??: COmments are in the bug, agree we should just decide one way - don't have two versions.
# [00:02] <chaals> IF: Agree.
# [00:02] <chaals> ??: We are in violent agreement.
# [00:02] <chaals> AB: Hixie, do you have what you need to close it?
# [00:03] <chaals> ... would that necessitate a last call?
# [00:03] <chaals> IF: Think it is a clarification not a change.
# [00:03] <chaals> ABate: agreed
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# [00:03] <chaals> ArtB: outstanding issue is comment from JR:
# [00:03] <krisk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2011OctDec/0244.html
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# [00:04] <stpeter> Julian's comment was http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2011OctDec/0084.html ?
# [00:05] <chaals> [Robin waltzes in 30 minutes late]
# [00:05] <chaals> AB: Is this some kind of showstopper? Is the change substantive enough to go back to last call?
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# [00:05] * darobin isn't late, I was just having discussions outside, where the real and useful action is :)
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# [00:06] * Josh_Soref thinks that's called a "smoke break"
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# [00:06] <chaals> IF: Original text was algorithmic parsing of URI. Got taken out of processing, but added into API spec. Question is whether a clear description of how to parse a URL is substantive
# [00:06] <chaals> MJS: SOunds like a good change, sounds substantive.
# [00:06] <Josh_Soref> s/SOunds/Sounds/
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# [00:07] <chaals> IF: Didn't change behaviour, it is like a clarification of parsing a URI
# [00:07] <stpeter> Julian's message was "I just noted that as of yesterday, the API spec contains the custom URI
# [00:07] <stpeter> ... parsing algorithm that we removed from the protocol spec a long time ago."
# [00:07] <chaals> ... doesn't change the browser, just trying to be clear on corner cases. Intent is to specify what browsers do, not change anything.
# [00:08] <chaals> MJS: reads "substantive change" from process...
# [00:08] <chaals> ... personally it sounds like a good change.
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# [00:09] <chaals> CMN: Would you have expected to parse a URI differently? If not I don't think it is a substantive change.
# [00:09] <chaals> MJS: If you change the text, you might introduce a change.
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# [00:09] <chaals> IF: If you did a review it seems that you would have read it in one place or the other. Doesn't seem like an actual change
# [00:10] <chaals> AvK: At best it is a 3-week difference. Do we need to argue one way or another?
# [00:10] <chaals> DS: Process is to get good reviw, and resolve difference of opinion. If people don't think there was harm, I don't think that the process requirement is active.
# [00:11] <chaals> MJS: Last call is for people outside the WG. The fact taht people here like it doesn't matter, it gives a fair opportunity to comment for people outside the WG.
# [00:11] <chaals> DS: Right. In this case it got moved from one place to another.
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# [00:11] <Josh_Soref> +1 to MJS's note
# [00:11] <chaals> MJS: Sure, but it went from one organisation to another.
# [00:11] <Josh_Soref> s/taht/tat/
# [00:11] <Josh_Soref> s/tat/that/
# [00:11] * Josh_Soref sighs
# [00:11] <chaals> ... prefer in the case of doubt that we are clear we follow the process, rather than beng sloppy.
# [00:12] <chaals> ... being only a few weeks difference, it sounds like it won't change anyone's plans
# [00:12] <chaals> ABate: Sounds like no consensus to move to CR, another last call is appropriate.
# [00:12] <chaals> RB: Operative word is reasonable, I don;t think there is reasonable doubt it would change anyone's review.
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# [00:13] <chaals> DS: Think ths call is up to the chairs
# [00:13] <Josh_Soref> s/don;t/don't/
# [00:13] <Josh_Soref> s/ths/this/
# [00:13] <Josh_Soref> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [00:13] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-webapps-minutes.html Josh_Soref
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# [00:14] <chaals> CMN: Anyone object moving through to CR, and claiming the change is not actually one that would materially affect a review?
# [00:14] <chaals> [no objection]
# [00:14] <chaals> RESOLUTION: We don't need to return to Last Call.
# [00:14] <ArtB> ACTION: barstow start a CfC to publish a CR of WebSockets API (after Hixie closes 14474)
# [00:14] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [00:14] * RRSAgent records action 3
# [00:14] <trackbot> Created ACTION-634 - Start a CfC to publish a CR of WebSockets API (after Hixie closes 14474) [on Arthur Barstow - due 2011-11-07].
# [00:15] <chaals> ABate: Shipping implementation of WS we also submitted some test cases. To test, you need a websocket server - we have a temporary server hosted.
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# [00:15] * Josh_Soref frowns, FAILED: s/don;t/don't/ -- any scribe.pl experts?
# [00:15] <chaals> ... getting that hosted by W3C and letting others build test that run on the server side seems essential. Can W3C / systems team figure out how we deliver that?
# [00:16] <ArtB> ACTION: barstow work with Chaals and the Team re infrastructure to test WebSockets API
# [00:16] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [00:16] * RRSAgent records action 4
# [00:16] <trackbot> Created ACTION-635 - Work with Chaals and the Team re infrastructure to test WebSockets API [on Arthur Barstow - due 2011-11-07].
# [00:16] <chaals> s/deliver that/we get the server hosted by W3C/
# [00:16] * chaals wonders how he got that action!!
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# [00:16] <chaals> IF: You mean a server you could run internally?
# [00:16] <chaals> ... we have a python thing you could install and run.
# [00:17] <chaals> ABate: No firm criteria, people want to test the browser without having to run something locally, would be helpful if it could be hosted as well as people having to set up their own.
# [00:17] * Josh_Soref sometimes finds version/dependency pain
# [00:18] <chaals> ... Our current server is open source but we don't care much. Key thing is being able to support a server within W3C that people can write tests for.
# [00:18] <chaals> JG: Absolute requirement that we can run it internally.
# [00:19] <chaals> ... Also running on W3C server is fine. Think the security makes this a reasonably hard problem to solve because it has to be secure - pywebsocket is known not to be secure.
# [00:19] <chaals> DS: We'd have to check with systems team of course, I can ask them...
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# [00:20] <chaals> DHM: Asked systems team. Main thing is to have something that we don't have a lot of maintenance for. I was imagining running a node.js server with sockets, limiting the maintenance required. That could fly, but we need a concrete thing to run and to check.
# [00:20] * Parts: stpeter (stpeter@207.210.219.225) (webapps)
# [00:20] <chaals> ABate: So how do we move forward? We're not sur what we could propose, you're not sure what will be proposed...
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# [00:20] <chaals> DHM: Need something open source, ideally something with maintenance process...
# [00:21] <chaals> ABate: Not sure we have that right now in a way that allows 3rd party submissions...
# [00:21] <smaug> uh, websocket CR o_O
# [00:21] * smaug should have been in tpac
# [00:21] * Josh_Soref yes
# [00:22] <chaals> CMN: If someone has something, let's look at it and see whether it works for us.
# [00:22] <chaals> DS: Yeah, explain how to run it.
# [00:22] <chaals> KK: Right. People will test this - so if it isn't being run it isn't any good.
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# [00:22] <chaals> IF: Yes, we need something we can run locally, but don't object to something running hosted.
# [00:22] <chaals> ... if we can run it, presumably it could be run externally too.
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# [00:23] <chaals> JG: If running it externally turns out to be difficult, we could do without that.
# [00:23] <chaals> IF: Think we could figure that problem out. Let's try to make it happen.
# [00:23] <chaals> JG: Right. make a decision on a framework so people can write tests sooner rather than later.
# [00:24] <chaals> IF: Don't hear disagreement, but not sure we will resolve right now which framework we'll use. Someone needs to come up with a submission.
# [00:25] <chaals> ACTION: Kris to propose a framework for running testing.
# [00:25] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [00:25] * RRSAgent records action 5
# [00:25] <trackbot> Created ACTION-636 - Propose a framework for running testing. [on Kris Krueger - due 2011-11-07].
# [00:25] <chaals> AB: Adrian, do you want to talk about future direction?
# [00:25] <chaals> ABate: not really.
# [00:25] <chaals> PSA: Seen proposed extensions for multiplexing and compression, heard number of people say this would be useful, so expect to see those but nothing concrete here.
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# [00:26] <chaals> SW: Do you imagine it would be a non-backwards-compatibile change?
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# [00:26] <chaals> IF: Imagine an extension that is negotiated - non-multiplexing client could talk to a multi-plexing server, althugh the server might refuse to answer as policy rather than protocol
# [00:27] <chaals> SW: Server could serve both ways?
# [00:27] <chaals> IF: Yes. Client sends handshake with capability, server can accept a connection that works, or reject it, without changing the base protocol.
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# [00:27] <chaals> Topic: DOM3 Events, DOM4
# [00:28] * Josh_Soref chaals wanna continue?
# [00:28] * chaals doesn't really, but can.
# [00:28] * Josh_Soref can scribe
# [00:28] <Josh_Soref> Scribe: JonathanJ
# [00:28] <Josh_Soref> Scribe: Josh_Soref
# [00:28] <Josh_Soref> ArtB: Status of DOM3 Events
# [00:28] <Zakim> -tpac
# [00:28] <Zakim> RWC_WAPI(WebAppsWG)12:00PM has ended
# [00:28] <Zakim> Attendees were +1.408.988.aaaa, Olli_Pettay, tpac
# [00:28] <Josh_Soref> ... a CFC for Candidate was made 3 weeks ago
# [00:28] * chaals thanks Josh (and wonders what crime he committed to scribe for so long)
# [00:28] * Josh_Soref oops smaug
# [00:29] * heycam we will call back in
# [00:29] <Josh_Soref> ... and ended
# [00:29] <Josh_Soref> ... with Ms2ger Objecting
# [00:29] <Zakim> RWC_WAPI(WebAppsWG)12:00PM has now started
# [00:29] <Zakim> +tpac
# [00:29] * Josh_Soref smaug : please redial
# [00:29] * Quits: dcooney (dominicc@216.239.45.130) (Ping timeout)
# [00:30] <Josh_Soref> ArtB: Ms2ger had 3 objections in his email
# [00:30] <ArtB> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2011OctDec/0108.html
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# [00:31] * Josh_Soref smaug_ : please redial
# [00:31] <Josh_Soref> shepazu: ...
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# [00:31] * Quits: smaug (chatzilla@85.76.172.80) (Ping timeout)
# [00:31] <Josh_Soref> ... 1. issue 123
# [00:31] * smaug_ is now known as smaug
# [00:31] <Josh_Soref> ... - by anne
# [00:31] * smaug is not in a place where he could dial-in :(
# [00:31] <ArtB> AB: here is the IRC log from Oct 25 (Art, Doug and Olli): http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/webapps/20111025
# [00:31] <jrossi2> q+
# [00:31] * Zakim sees jrossi on the speaker queue
# [00:32] <heycam> s/123/123, which contradicts DOM4's statement that no new feature strings should be minted/
# [00:32] <Josh_Soref> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [00:32] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-webapps-minutes.html Josh_Soref
# [00:32] <Josh_Soref> shepazu: svg uses feature strings
# [00:33] <Josh_Soref> mjs: there's the whole substantial discussion about feature strings being a good or bad idea
# [00:33] <Josh_Soref> ... as far as the DOM spec's view of feature strings
# [00:33] <Josh_Soref> ... it only supports a fixed, non extensible set of strings
# [00:33] * smaug could say that Mozilla (well, I and others) is implementing D3E. (Except using Exceptions from DOM4)
# [00:33] <Josh_Soref> ... if another spec wants to say that it modifies what that spec says
# [00:33] <Josh_Soref> ... it could
# [00:34] * Quits: manyoung (manyoung@63.145.238.4) (Quit: manyoung)
# [00:34] <Josh_Soref> shepazu: one could argue that what DOM4 says is violating what DOM3 says
# [00:34] <Josh_Soref> jrossi2: I agree that this i
# [00:34] <Josh_Soref> s/this i/this is/
# [00:34] <Josh_Soref> ... strange
# [00:34] <Josh_Soref> ... i gave personal feedback against removing this from the platform
# [00:35] <Josh_Soref> anne: among most people, feature strings seem to be a bad idea
# [00:35] <Josh_Soref> ... you can claim to support a feature by claiming to support a feature
# [00:35] <Josh_Soref> ... but not actually support a feature
# [00:35] <Josh_Soref> ... a feature can be composed of multiple parts
# [00:35] <jrossi2> q+
# [00:35] * Zakim sees jrossi on the speaker queue
# [00:35] <Josh_Soref> ... and you can only implement some of them
# [00:36] <Josh_Soref> ... whereas feature detection is robust against this
# [00:36] <Josh_Soref> chaals: I agree that feature strings as used by DOM are a failure
# [00:36] <Josh_Soref> ... i'm not so sure that the DOM spec should throw out the ability to define them
# [00:36] * dom never said that
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# [00:36] <smaug> there is no robust feature detection for events
# [00:36] <Josh_Soref> [ scribe lost the correct wording and used robust instead ]
# [00:37] <Josh_Soref> ... and even if DOM throws these functions out and washes its hands of it
# [00:37] <Josh_Soref> ... it doesn't ...
# [00:37] * Josh_Soref gets tired of bad position
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# [00:37] <Josh_Soref> ... "you MUST not" is a whole nother ball of wax
# [00:37] <Josh_Soref> anne: as a group, we agree that we shouldn't do this
# [00:38] <Josh_Soref> ... but, where else would we put it
# [00:38] <Josh_Soref> [ scribe is not catching full text, sorry ]
# [00:38] <Josh_Soref> shepazu: i don't think we made this RESOLUTION
# [00:38] <Josh_Soref> ... as editor of the DOM3 spec, I don't think I was informed of this
# [00:38] <Josh_Soref> Marcos: let's do it now!
# [00:38] <Josh_Soref> shepazu: we don't make decisions in ... [cut off]
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# [00:39] <Josh_Soref> shepazu: one of the reasons that they haven't been successful in the past
# [00:39] <Josh_Soref> ... is that they weren't fine grained
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# [00:39] <Josh_Soref> anne: so you have to make them more complex?
# [00:39] <Josh_Soref> shepazu: i didn't say complex, i said precise
# [00:39] <jrossi2> q+
# [00:39] * Zakim sees jrossi on the speaker queue
# [00:39] <Josh_Soref> mjs: if we make them sufficiently precise, you might as well use feature detection
# [00:40] <Josh_Soref> jgraham: what's the technical reason for this
# [00:40] <smaug> jgraham: there is no good way to feature detect events
# [00:40] <Josh_Soref> anne: if event objects are forced to be exposed by webidl
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# [00:40] <jrossi2> q-
# [00:40] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [00:40] <Josh_Soref> mjs: it's better if events ....
# [00:40] <smaug> that is event objects, not event types
# [00:40] <anne> burn the witch!
# [00:41] <Josh_Soref> ... it's better to burn feature strings to the ground
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# [00:41] <Josh_Soref> weinig: historically, in our implementation, we have not been very good at keeping feature strings matching our implementation
# [00:41] <Josh_Soref> alexr: i want to second that
# [00:41] <Josh_Soref> s/alexr/slightlyoff/
# [00:41] <Josh_Soref> shepazu: i'm not going to fight the issue
# [00:42] <Josh_Soref> ... we can remove them
# [00:42] <Josh_Soref> ... jrossi2 : you have the implementation of this
# [00:42] <Josh_Soref> jrossi2: I don't know that it harms the implementation
# [00:42] <Josh_Soref> ... the extended implementation
# [00:42] <Josh_Soref> ... we've seen some compat issues, in terms of consumers
# [00:42] <Josh_Soref> ... i think jQuery uses it
# [00:43] <Josh_Soref> anne: i do not, and never have proposed, support removing older elements
# [00:43] <Josh_Soref> [ the dom4 spec just freezes the old list ]
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# [00:43] <Josh_Soref> mjs: to get out of this philosophical issue of whether dom4 can tell what other specs say
# [00:43] <Josh_Soref> ... we could define the functions to return true for a specific list of strings
# [00:44] <Josh_Soref> ... [ which effectively removes any relation of the feature to the function ]
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# [00:44] <Josh_Soref> jrossi2: it could be marked as AT-RISK
# [00:44] <Josh_Soref> ... and discussed on the list
# [00:44] <Josh_Soref> anne: it seems easier to remove
# [00:44] <Josh_Soref> shepazu: no, that would require another LC
# [00:45] <Josh_Soref> mjs: you can remove features marked as AT-RISK without going back to LC
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# [00:45] <Josh_Soref> mjs: it sounds like there's sufficient resistance to this feature
# [00:45] <Josh_Soref> ... to prevent this group from formally going to CR
# [00:45] <Josh_Soref> ... because the group doesn't support the feature
# [00:46] <Zakim> -tpac
# [00:46] <Zakim> RWC_WAPI(WebAppsWG)12:00PM has ended
# [00:46] <Zakim> Attendees were tpac
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# [00:46] <Josh_Soref> shepazu: I'm fine with removing them if jacob is fine with removing them
# [00:47] <Josh_Soref> jrossi2: if that's considered a substantial change which would force us to go to LC, then i'd object
# [00:47] <Josh_Soref> shanec: Issue 2
# [00:47] <Josh_Soref> [ shepazu reads from the objections ]
# [00:47] <Josh_Soref> s/shanec/shepazu/
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# [00:47] <ArtB> … Issue 2 is "Second (issue 179), it ignores the consensus about using DOMException instead of custom exception types like EventException, as noted in WebIDL, [3] which I reported. [4]"
# [00:47] * Josh_Soref wonders if shanec will be talking at some point and if not could have a nick which doesn't collide w/ shepazu
# [00:48] <Josh_Soref> anne: mozilla already removed EventException
# [00:48] * shanec is now known as mixedpuppy
# [00:48] <Josh_Soref> sicking: we have not removed it
# [00:48] <Josh_Soref> ... we were planning on it
# [00:48] <Josh_Soref> heycam: window.EventException does not exist in my nightly build
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# [00:49] <Josh_Soref> jrossi2: the new exception type was brought up prior to the LC
# [00:49] <Josh_Soref> ... before the consensus of how to move forward
# [00:49] <Josh_Soref> ... and we found them useful
# [00:49] <Josh_Soref> ... since then the feedback that our resolution was incompatible with that
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# [00:49] <Josh_Soref> ... was after the LC
# [00:49] * Quits: bhill2 (bhill@63.145.238.4) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [00:50] <Josh_Soref> anne: that was on a call with few members
# [00:50] * Quits: Kai (chatzilla@63.145.238.4) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 7.0.1/20110928134238])
# [00:50] <Josh_Soref> ... and I sent comments on them
# [00:50] <Josh_Soref> ... and they were not addressed for months
# [00:50] * Joins: smaugN900 (smaug@193.199.80.153)
# [00:50] <Josh_Soref> chaals: can we stop arguing about process, unless we have a formal objection on process
# [00:50] <Josh_Soref> anne: i think it matters on how we develop drafts
# [00:50] <Josh_Soref> chaals: yes it matters, and in particular, the chairs allowed the editors to screw up
# [00:51] <Josh_Soref> ... the question is whether there's a technical reason to fix what came out of the process
# [00:51] <Josh_Soref> sicking: if the D3E spec is specifying an exception type which we don't implement
# [00:51] <Josh_Soref> ... i'd object to that
# [00:51] <Josh_Soref> ... i'd imagine that other implementations feel that way
# [00:51] * Joins: dowan (forty4@63.145.238.4)
# [00:52] <Josh_Soref> jrossi2: there's already some implementations implementing it
# [00:52] <smaugN900> we did implement that exception type
# [00:52] <Josh_Soref> ... there are at least 2 interoperable impls
# [00:52] <smaugN900> but we moved to dom 4 exceptions
# [00:52] <Josh_Soref> ... DOM4 is free to evolve that idea
# [00:52] * Quits: karl (karlcow@128.30.54.58) (Quit: Freedom - to walk free and own no superior.)
# [00:52] <Josh_Soref> sicking: i'm not convinced if 2 browsers have implemented it
# [00:52] <Josh_Soref> ... what matters is what all browsers can implement
# [00:53] <Josh_Soref> jrossi2: i think that web developers care about previously shipped implementations
# [00:53] <Josh_Soref> mjs: if we agree to remove it later
# [00:53] <Josh_Soref> ... over time
# [00:53] <Josh_Soref> ... then codifying it will make it harder
# [00:53] <Josh_Soref> ... because people will complain that browsers are incompatible
# [00:53] <smaugN900> also, I thought it was agreed that D3E will use dom4 exception type.
# [00:53] <Josh_Soref> heycam: given that D3E is not using WebIDL
# [00:54] <Josh_Soref> ... i don't think there's a normative way to detect this
# [00:54] <Josh_Soref> anne: constants
# [00:54] <Josh_Soref> heycam: number 2, it's not useful
# [00:54] <Josh_Soref> heycam: it's unlikely that users would .name = eventexception
# [00:54] <Josh_Soref> ... i wonder if content use this
# [00:54] <Josh_Soref> ... and checking that code relies on it
# [00:55] * Quits: ernesto_jimenez (ernesto_ji@63.145.238.4) (Quit: ernesto_jimenez)
# [00:55] <Josh_Soref> [ scribe repeats what smaugN900 said for the room ]
# [00:55] <Josh_Soref> anne: there's a desire to get D3E to REC
# [00:56] * Quits: stakagi (stakagi@63.145.238.4) (Ping timeout)
# [00:56] <Josh_Soref> ... people working on D3E want to get to things to REC and generally agree with the direction it's going
# [00:56] <Josh_Soref> ... but some are concerned about time target
# [00:56] <Josh_Soref> jrossi2: shepazu do you recall us changing?
# [00:56] <Josh_Soref> shepazu: i don't care at this point
# [00:56] <Josh_Soref> ... it doesn't matter, it shouldn't affect anything
# [00:57] <Josh_Soref> ... except possibly script libraries
# [00:57] <ArtB> Jacob, here is the IRC log from the call I had with Doug and Olli: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/webapps/20111025
# [00:57] <Josh_Soref> sicking: which browsers have shipped this, and for how long?
# [00:57] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@63.145.238.4) (Quit: MikeSmith)
# [00:57] <Josh_Soref> anne: only one that ...
# [00:57] <Josh_Soref> weinig: I think WebKit has been shipping it for many many years
# [00:58] <Josh_Soref> jrossi2: I think WebKit and IE and I thought Opera had passed the test case
# [00:58] <Josh_Soref> shepazu: the final thing is WebIDL
# [00:58] * Quits: MoZ (MoZ@63.145.238.4) (Quit: Quitte)
# [00:58] <Josh_Soref> ... i'd like to have heycam speak to how long before WebIDL is stable.. i.e. to REC
# [00:58] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@63.145.238.4)
# [00:58] <Josh_Soref> heycam: how many recommendations do you have?
# [00:58] <Josh_Soref> ... to get to rec, you need test suites, and passing implementations
# [00:59] <Josh_Soref> shepazu: regarding normative, instead of informative
# [00:59] <Josh_Soref> ... i'd suggest we go to CR
# [00:59] * Quits: sangwhan (sangwhan@63.145.238.4) (Connection reset by peer)
# [00:59] <Josh_Soref> ... and if WebIDL makes faster progress
# [00:59] <heycam> s/recommendations do you have/requirements are there in the spec/
# [00:59] * Joins: sangwhan (sangwhan@63.145.238.4)
# [00:59] <Josh_Soref> .. I don't want to make D3E gate on WebIDL
# [00:59] <Josh_Soref> jgraham: regarding testing
# [01:00] <Josh_Soref> ... some things have a tendency to rely on WebIDL
# [01:00] * Parts: curmet (5ad8fb39@207.192.75.252)
# [01:00] <Josh_Soref> anne: how can you not define the binding to JS and still test it?
# [01:00] * Josh_Soref jgraham not sure i got your statement
# [01:00] <smaugN900> (I think there are still quite a few open webidl spec bugs. and more coming when it is being implemented.)
# [01:00] <Josh_Soref> shepazu: i think we should try to go with what we have
# [01:00] <Josh_Soref> ... and see how far we go
# [01:00] <Josh_Soref> ... i think a snapshot is useful
# [01:01] <Josh_Soref> ... there are plenty of test suites that do not use webidl
# [01:01] * Quits: dcooney (dominicc@63.145.238.4) (Quit: dcooney)
# [01:01] <Josh_Soref> jgraham: there's not a great tradition of test suites
# [01:01] <Josh_Soref> anne: those specs defined a binding
# [01:01] <Josh_Soref> Marcos: i want to second just about everything that anne is saying
# [01:01] <Josh_Soref> ... webidl defines a bunch of stuff
# [01:01] <heycam> Presumably Anne is thinking of something like http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-Events/ecma-script-binding.html.
# [01:01] <Josh_Soref> ... it defines how to implement everything
# [01:02] <Josh_Soref> ... and i can generate tests from it
# [01:02] * Joins: karl (karlcow@128.30.54.58)
# [01:02] <Josh_Soref> shepazu: we have 2 passing implementations
# [01:02] <Josh_Soref> ... is it less useful to have D3E actually out there
# [01:02] <Josh_Soref> ... pushing forward on the keyboard model
# [01:02] <Josh_Soref> ... i think it's much more useful to have a keyboard model than some actual architecture astronaut
# [01:03] <Josh_Soref> Marcos: it's rhetorical
# [01:03] <Josh_Soref> Marcos: what's the aim of the spec
# [01:03] <Josh_Soref> shepazu: by going to CR, we can get more implementations of those features
# [01:03] <Josh_Soref> Marcos: the implementers at the table, saying we don't like how it's written
# [01:03] <Josh_Soref> ... we want it in WebIDL
# [01:04] * Joins: noriya (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [01:04] <Josh_Soref> shepazu: does everyone agree that it's more important to have it in WebIDL?
# [01:04] <smaugN900> marcos: really?
# [01:04] <Josh_Soref> chaals: who thinks we should not go forward before D3E normatively references WebIDL
# [01:05] <Josh_Soref> mjs: scanning over the normative idl in the spec
# [01:05] <Josh_Soref> ... and non-normatively in webidl
# [01:05] <Josh_Soref> ... they seem to define different behaviors
# [01:05] <Josh_Soref> ... that makes me uncomfortable
# [01:05] <Josh_Soref> jrossi2: that's a great bug to file
# [01:06] <Josh_Soref> chaals: who thinks we should go forward with this without making webidl a normative requirement
# [01:06] <Josh_Soref> chaals: jrossi2 and shepazu against, and everyone else with an opinion of waiting on webidl
# [01:06] <Josh_Soref> ... which was a fairly broad collection
# [01:06] * smaugN900 wants D3E be done so that we can focus on D4E (which will hopefulle take all the event handling out from DOM4)
# [01:06] <Josh_Soref> shepazu: as a point of order
# [01:06] * Quits: James (Jameszhu@63.145.238.4) (Client exited)
# [01:07] * Josh_Soref smaugN900 do you want to be on record as supporting jrossi2 + shepazu ?
# [01:07] <smaugN900> that is ok
# [01:07] <Josh_Soref> ... i believe we have 2 implementations passing most of the items
# [01:07] <Josh_Soref> s/that is ok//
# [01:07] * Quits: mixedpuppy (mixedpuppy@63.245.220.240) (Quit: mixedpuppy)
# [01:07] <Josh_Soref> ... and i believe in short order that we will have 2 implementations for all
# [01:08] <Josh_Soref> sicking: i think all of the time that when all of the vendors have said we will not go forward
# [01:08] <Josh_Soref> ... that we have not gone forward
# [01:08] <Josh_Soref> ... i can't think of any times when even one has said no that we've moved forward
# [01:08] <Josh_Soref> mjs: in general, we don't move to CR without support
# [01:08] * Josh_Soref mjs: did i get you right?
# [01:09] <Josh_Soref> chaals: i think the general sense has been that we want to move forward with specs that everyone will implement
# [01:09] * Joins: stakagi (stakagi@63.145.238.4)
# [01:09] <Josh_Soref> .... i think getting D3E to REC would be useful
# [01:09] <Josh_Soref> .. getting another spec that isn't finished
# [01:09] <Josh_Soref> ... would be bad
# [01:09] <Josh_Soref> s/.. getting/... getting/
# [01:09] * smaugN900 hints to sicking that d3E is being implemented actively to gecko.
# [01:10] <Josh_Soref> chaals: i agree with mjs, i don't see a requirement that this group be consistent in its processes
# [01:10] <Josh_Soref> ... i would object to any formal requirement that everything be agreed by everybody
# [01:10] * Quits: a1zu (androirc@63.145.238.4) (Ping timeout)
# [01:10] <Josh_Soref> ... i think it's a good rule of thumb
# [01:10] <Josh_Soref> ... as chair, the job is to get consensus
# [01:10] <Josh_Soref> ... and it seems we don't have a consensus to go forward without webidl
# [01:11] <Josh_Soref> ... sometimes we need to acknowledge that we are not that good at achieving our goals
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# [01:11] <Josh_Soref> jeff: is there a plan to get webidl as normative?
# [01:11] <Josh_Soref> chaals: one of the things is waiting until WebIDL is done
# [01:11] <Josh_Soref> shepazu: we have an informative WebIDL reference
# [01:11] <Josh_Soref> ... it's just a matter of making it normative
# [01:12] <smaugN900> does that mean that we give up with D3E and move to D4E?
# [01:12] <Josh_Soref> ... and then waiting for WebIDL to be `done`
# [01:12] * Joins: shan (soonbo.han@63.145.238.4)
# [01:12] <Josh_Soref> heycam: how much done do you need?
# [01:12] * Quits: nvbalaji (3f91ee04@207.192.75.252) (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
# [01:12] <Josh_Soref> ... what's the comparison in times between WebIDL and D3E?
# [01:12] <Josh_Soref> dom: processwise, if D3E depends on WebIDL
# [01:13] <Josh_Soref> ... then D3E can't go to REC without WebIDL done
# [01:13] <Josh_Soref> ... we have special rules for HTML
# [01:13] <Josh_Soref> shepazu: that's not in the process documentation
# [01:13] <Josh_Soref> ... it's a policy
# [01:13] <Josh_Soref> ... it's somewhat of a catch-22
# [01:14] <Josh_Soref> ... at what level of webidl implementations can we have to get it to move forward
# [01:14] <dom> [the policy enacts a director decision, so it's as powerful as the process document afaik ]
# [01:14] <Josh_Soref> ... i'm fine with making changes to the admin exceptions
# [01:14] <heycam> s/admin/event/
# [01:14] <Josh_Soref> ... i'd like a bounded requirements on the specifications
# [01:14] <Josh_Soref> ... it sounds like we're going back to LC
# [01:14] <Josh_Soref> anne: some of these issues were raised pretty early on
# [01:15] <Josh_Soref> ... as in March
# [01:15] <Josh_Soref> shepazu: that's not very early on
# [01:15] <Josh_Soref> jeff: what does the dependency on webidl look like?
# [01:15] <Josh_Soref> ... i didn't get an answer
# [01:15] <Josh_Soref> chaals: i think the answer we got
# [01:15] <Josh_Soref> ... is that if we make it dependent on webidl
# [01:15] <Josh_Soref> ... we don't have an expectation that webidl is racing along to webidl
# [01:15] * Quits: spoussa (Adium@192.55.55.37) (Ping timeout)
# [01:16] <Josh_Soref> ... shepazu suggests there are a small number of issues before D3E can go to CR
# [01:16] * Quits: kensaku (kensaku@63.145.238.4) (Client exited)
# [01:16] * Quits: Wonsuk (wonsuk11_l@63.145.238.4) (Ping timeout)
# [01:16] <Josh_Soref> ... if it is held up by WebIDL, then that could be a very long wait in CR
# [01:16] <Josh_Soref> ... we may ask the Director to wave the convention
# [01:16] <Josh_Soref> ... we're going to put WebIDL specs through to REC
# [01:16] <Josh_Soref> ... because we need specs out there to get WebIDL done
# [01:17] <Josh_Soref> ... although he generally doesn't want to use that authority
# [01:17] <Josh_Soref> ... an exception has been granted for HTML5
# [01:17] <Josh_Soref> anne: what's being missed by your comment
# [01:17] <smaugN900> (so assuming webidl is stable late next year, D3E could be rec in 2014)
# [01:17] <Josh_Soref> ... is that currently it doesn't define JS bindings
# [01:17] <smaugN900> er 2013
# [01:17] <Josh_Soref> anne: WebIDL defines a language and the binding from that language to javascript
# [01:17] * Quits: weinig (weinig@63.145.238.4) (Quit: weinig)
# [01:18] * dom "er" is the new "s//"
# [01:18] <Josh_Soref> jeff: smaugN900 's answer answers my question
# [01:18] <Josh_Soref> jgraham: since WebIDL defines a semantic
# [01:19] * anne dom just requires a human
# [01:19] <Josh_Soref> ... and since browsers implement in terms of WebIDL
# [01:19] <Josh_Soref> ... it seems like not claiming to rely on WebIDL is a lie
# [01:19] <Josh_Soref> heycam: the number of most recent LC comments was 15
# [01:19] <Josh_Soref> ... and most are pretty simple
# [01:19] <Josh_Soref> ... the comments could be resolved in a month or two
# [01:20] <Josh_Soref> mjs: so less than a year to get to CR?
# [01:20] * darobin timecheck?
# [01:20] <Josh_Soref> heycam: so LC if we make normative changes
# [01:20] * Parts: richardschwerdt-1 (RichS@63.145.238.4)
# [01:20] <Josh_Soref> ... and then 3 months and then CR
# [01:20] <Josh_Soref> mjs: so, optimistically?
# [01:20] <Josh_Soref> heycam: the big time bit is moving from CR to REC
# [01:20] <Josh_Soref> ... it's getting implementations
# [01:21] <Josh_Soref> sicking: are there specifications that use "all" of the features of WebIDL?
# [01:21] <Josh_Soref> mjs: for each webidl feature, is there at least one spec using it?
# [01:21] * Quits: Ruinan (Ruinan@63.145.238.4) (Quit: Ruinan)
# [01:21] <Josh_Soref> Josh_Soref: is there at least one W3 spec for each WebIDL feature?
# [01:22] <Josh_Soref> heycam: there is a feature which we'd probably drop that wouldn't
# [01:22] <Josh_Soref> s/wouldn't/is only used outside/
# [01:22] * Quits: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.169) (Quit: tlr)
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# [01:22] <Josh_Soref> chaals: if we take the RESOLUTION that we make those changes and send it back to LC
# [01:22] * Joins: a12u (androirc@208.54.5.146)
# [01:22] <Josh_Soref> ... and send it through with the statement that D3E would be LC specifically scoped to those changes
# [01:23] <Josh_Soref> sicking: does that include deprecating the EventException interface?
# [01:23] <Josh_Soref> chaals: yes, all three changes
# [01:23] <Josh_Soref> anne: i guess it's ok
# [01:23] <Josh_Soref> ... but there are various minor comments raised
# [01:23] <Josh_Soref> ... and i'm not sure how they were addressed relating to DOM4
# [01:23] <Josh_Soref> .. initEvent
# [01:23] <Josh_Soref> s/../.../
# [01:24] <Josh_Soref> ... there's something which is prohibited, although jackal said it might be allowed if you interpret the spec in an interesting way
# [01:24] <Josh_Soref> ojan: my general experience w/ D3E
# [01:24] <Josh_Soref> ... is that the push to get it to REC has generally trumped technical issues
# [01:24] <Josh_Soref> ... it's hard to retroactively make it good
# [01:24] * Joins: skim (Adium@209.119.68.98)
# [01:24] <Josh_Soref> ... i'd rather consider it a sunk cost
# [01:24] <Josh_Soref> ... and just look toward DOM4
# [01:25] * Joins: kermit (5e080aef@207.192.75.252)
# [01:25] * dom killing two specs with one stone^Wmeeting
# [01:25] <Josh_Soref> shepazu: are you talking about new features, or the way things are actually specified currently
# [01:25] <Josh_Soref> ... i know i said i wasn't adding new features
# [01:25] <Josh_Soref> ojan: not adding new features is totally ok
# [01:25] * karl dom killing two specs with one event :p
# [01:25] <Josh_Soref> chaals: so you're supporting anne in not being certain about other little things
# [01:25] <mjs> q+
# [01:25] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
# [01:25] <smaugN900> (DOM4Events, not just DOM4)
# [01:25] <Josh_Soref> Marcos: i've also tried implementing things from D3E
# [01:26] <Josh_Soref> ... and i've had to fall back to DOM4
# [01:26] <Josh_Soref> ... there's good bits in the spec, but i think it's overreaching
# [01:26] <Josh_Soref> ... the stuff that anne 's done in DOM4
# [01:26] <Josh_Soref> ... he's make the event dispatch really clear
# [01:26] <Josh_Soref> ... the mouse/keyboard stuff is great
# [01:26] <Josh_Soref> ... the web is going to be underpinned by DOM4 and WebIDL
# [01:26] * Parts: kermit (5e080aef@207.192.75.252)
# [01:27] * Joins: shanec (mixedpuppy@63.245.220.240)
# [01:27] <Josh_Soref> chaals: if as chairs
# [01:27] <smaugN900> if event dispatch is not clear in D3E, please file a bug
# [01:27] <Josh_Soref> ... we proposed to make an LC with only the new changes
# [01:27] <Josh_Soref> ... are there people who would object
# [01:27] * shanec is now known as mixedpuppy
# [01:27] <Josh_Soref> mjs: i would object because i don't think the process supports that
# [01:27] <Josh_Soref> chaals: there's precedent
# [01:27] <Josh_Soref> shepazu: it doesn't disallow it
# [01:28] <Josh_Soref> chaals: i don't want a question, just a technical objection
# [01:28] <Josh_Soref> sicking: are there things where D3E is in direct opposition to what DOM4 says?
# [01:28] <Josh_Soref> shepazu: in D3E we tried to match what implementations did
# [01:28] <Josh_Soref> anne: but you didn't
# [01:29] <Josh_Soref> jrossi2: the initEvent is the only other thing i've ever seen
# [01:29] <Josh_Soref> anne: if you create an event, what does event.type return?
# [01:29] <Josh_Soref> chaals: we should leave it undefined until DOM4
# [01:29] <Josh_Soref> sicking: i don't want to run into issues doing DOM4 because it conflicts we things D3E says
# [01:30] <Josh_Soref> shepazu: D3E is generally a subset of DOM4
# [01:30] <Josh_Soref> anne: there are some contradictions
# [01:30] <Josh_Soref> ... initEvent, things that are not defined
# [01:30] <Josh_Soref> chaals: things that are not defined is not a contradiction
# [01:30] <Josh_Soref> sicking: i'm not worried about undefined
# [01:30] * Quits: adrianba (adrianba@63.145.238.4) (Ping timeout)
# [01:31] <Josh_Soref> ... just things that it does say which contradicts what it actually does say
# [01:31] <Josh_Soref> Marcos: we can't just do levels/errate
# [01:31] <Josh_Soref> s/errate/errata/
# [01:31] * Josh_Soref sighs
# [01:31] <Josh_Soref> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [01:31] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-webapps-minutes.html Josh_Soref
# [01:31] * dom thinks WebApps should have more F2F meetings; they are tense, but quite productive
# [01:31] <smaugN900> (I think I.ve missed what is wrong with initEvent)
# [01:31] * Josh_Soref dom: please find out why scribe is failing to deal w/ s///
# [01:31] * dom thinks that's a bug with scribe.perl that has never been well identified
# [01:31] <Josh_Soref> chaals: option 1: we go forward with the spec, making the 3 changes outlined in the 3 issues
# [01:32] <Josh_Soref> ... and moving forward based on that
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# [01:32] <Josh_Soref> ... restricting the LC scope to that
# [01:32] <Josh_Soref> ... there are 3 4 objections
# [01:32] <Josh_Soref> s/3 4/3 ... 4/
# [01:32] <Josh_Soref> chaals: are there objections to:
# [01:33] <Josh_Soref> ... we will go through and open an LC with an open scope
# [01:33] <Josh_Soref> ... and with an explicit plan that we will
# [01:33] <Josh_Soref> ... that any further LC will be restricted
# [01:33] <Josh_Soref> ... and we expect to move forward
# [01:34] * Quits: Suresh (3f91ee04@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout))
# [01:34] <Josh_Soref> ... are there objections - One open LC and one further limited to issued raised in that LC
# [01:34] <Josh_Soref> ... there is precedent to that, not in this group, but in others
# [01:35] * Quits: jcdufourd (jcdufourd@63.145.238.4) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
# [01:35] <Josh_Soref> mjs: i'm dubious, but i don't object
# [01:35] <Josh_Soref> chaals: does anyone expect that they're going to keep saying "no, no, no"
# [01:36] <Josh_Soref> Marcos: it's not a bad spec
# [01:36] <Josh_Soref> ... it's just there's too much conflict between two specs
# [01:36] <smaugN900> what are the conflicts
# [01:37] <Josh_Soref> chaals: i'm going to table that question
# [01:37] <smaugN900> one exception type
# [01:37] * Josh_Soref i think anne / Marcos wrote them to the list
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# [01:37] <Josh_Soref> Topic: Widgets v2
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# [01:38] <Josh_Soref> Topic: D3E
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# [01:38] <Josh_Soref> AlexRussel: there is a v3/v4 tension
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# [01:39] <Josh_Soref> jrossi2: there's a lot in D3E events which is not really for DOM4
# [01:39] <Josh_Soref> AlexRussel: and there's a question of dropping D3E
# [01:40] <Josh_Soref> ArtB: looking at the Agenda
# [01:40] <Josh_Soref> ... is this the 9-11 slot?
# [01:40] <Josh_Soref> shepazu: you mean when i'm @WebEvents?
# [01:40] <Josh_Soref> ArtB: how about 10?
# [01:40] <Josh_Soref> Topic: Widgets v2
# [01:40] <Josh_Soref> ArtB: Web Application Packaging v2
# [01:40] <Josh_Soref> Marcos: I don't remember proposing tihs
# [01:41] <Josh_Soref> ... i'm not going to waste people's time here
# [01:41] <Josh_Soref> ... given the workshop on saturday
# [01:41] * Quits: shepazu (shepazu@128.30.52.169) (Quit: shepazu)
# [01:41] <Josh_Soref> ... i think that will determine if we'll have a v2
# [01:41] <Josh_Soref> ... i'm happy to listen to requirements
# [01:41] <Josh_Soref> ... thanks everyone
# [01:41] <Josh_Soref> ArtB: any other comments?
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# [01:42] <Josh_Soref> Josh_Soref: i'm unhappy with the day being Saturday
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# [01:42] <Josh_Soref> [ Adjourned ]
# [01:42] <Josh_Soref> RRSAgent: make minutes
# [01:42] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-webapps-minutes.html Josh_Soref
# [01:42] <Josh_Soref> trackbot: end telcon
# [01:42] * trackbot is ending a teleconference
# [01:42] <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
# [01:42] <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
# [01:42] <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
# [01:42] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-webapps-minutes.html trackbot
# [01:43] <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
# [01:43] <RRSAgent> I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-webapps-actions.rdf :
# [01:43] <RRSAgent> ACTION: Art to talk to Doug about the traversal from Element Traversal to DOM4 [1]
# [01:43] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-webapps-irc#T16-37-07
# [01:43] <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow should XHR1 be published as a WG Note? [2]
# [01:43] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-webapps-irc#T22-43-46
# [01:43] <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow start a CfC to publish a CR of WebSockets API (after Hixie closes 14474) [3]
# [01:43] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-webapps-irc#T23-09-25
# [01:43] <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow work with Chaals and the Team re infrastructure to test WebSockets API [4]
# [01:43] * Parts: ihilerio (israelh@63.145.238.4)
# [01:43] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-webapps-irc#T23-10-36
# [01:43] <RRSAgent> ACTION: Kris to propose a framework for running testing. [5]
# [01:43] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-webapps-irc#T23-19-35
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# [01:49] <Will> test
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# [11:18] <smaug> Josh_Soref: thank you taking good minutes yesterday
# [11:18] <smaug> and sorry if my comments to IRC were disturbing
# [11:19] <smaug> (it was quite interesting trying to attend tpac meeting using irc client running on a mobile phone)
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# [17:08] <chaals> Topic: Agenda bashing
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# [17:13] <Marcos> TOPIC: Agenda (bashing)
# [17:13] <Marcos> we look at stream and file API
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# [17:13] <Marcos> Need to look at what we do with DOM 3 API at 10am
# [17:13] <Marcos> People who are important are Jakob and Doug, but there is time conflict
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# [17:14] <Marcos> So we will do it at 11:30 (DOM3 Events)
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# [17:14] <Marcos> Testing we also need to discuss
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# [17:14] <Marcos> We need Jonas for the File API
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# [17:15] <Marcos> Afternoon: index DB and XBL2 and component model, in the afternoon
# [17:15] <Marcos> 1-3pm
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# [17:16] <Marcos> Bryan wanted to add an item: Event source extension for connectionless push
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# [17:16] <Marcos> If we get through stuff quickly, we can start talking about API design
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# [17:17] <Marcos> Stream and file API, we can start off with that
# [17:17] <Marcos> TOPIC: Stream and file API
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# [17:17] <Marcos> Scribe: Marcosc
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# [17:17] <Soonho> present+ Soonho_Lee
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# [17:18] <Marcos> EE: I want to discuss file saver
# [17:18] <jrossi2> present+ Jacob
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# [17:19] <Marcos> Not all the use cases are covered by download attribute on the a element.
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# [17:20] <Marcos> ee: we had talked about looking at saving a blob VS saving a URL (the resource)
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# [17:20] <Marcos> ee: is there interest in implementing this?
# [17:20] <Marcos> JS: yes
# [17:20] <Marcos> CMN: nods in agreement
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# [17:22] <Marcos> AB: We wanted to replicate the same expirience you get form downloading a link. We have implemented two APIs that get sent a blob and the browser displays a dialog and simulates downloading a file (but using a blob). The idea is to make the user experience is the same.
# [17:22] <Marcos> JS: how is that different from file saver
# [17:22] <Marcos> AB: you don't get the progress events.
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# [17:22] <Marcos> AB: going to paste in a URL
# [17:22] <adrianba> http://pages.adrianba.net/w3c/FilesAndStreams.pdf
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# [17:23] * chaals changes topic to 'WebApps f2f meeting; Agenda = kwz.me/gE ; VC PIN = 2011 - ask on IRC to dial in'
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# [17:23] <bryan> present +Bryan_Sullivan
# [17:23] <Marcos> If you look at the second page… replicating content disposition: which shows the save dialog
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# [17:24] <Marcos> CMN: is there any indicator when the download is done.
# [17:24] <Marcos> AB: no. it works like the current save dialog that browsers use
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# [17:25] <Marcos> CMN: We have the File API right now. And I think that is what we want before a full filesystem API. Our use cases are "real file system access": create directories, get at files, so the user can share files with Apps.
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# [17:25] <Marcos> AB: we are not opposed to such an API. But they are not a high priority for us (MS) right now.
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# [17:25] <chaals> [berjob waltzes in already...]
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# [17:26] <Marcos> AB: this is something we did instead of file saver… the file system API is further down the road.
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# [17:26] <Marcos> EE: how is this different from the current API?
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# [17:27] <Marcos> AB: we don't support the download attribute. We don't to support navigation to a blob URL. So if the blog points to a URL page, we don't want to display that page. we are concerned about scripts running in the page contained by the page.
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# [17:27] <Marcos> RB: could you not always download it? just a suggestion?
# [17:27] <Marcos> AB: maybe :)
# [17:28] <jmarting> Present+ Jesus_Martin
# [17:28] <Marcos> EE: not sure what Chrome does right now. We might be displaying it in an iframe. But we are not sure about the origin right now and what privileges it has
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# [17:29] <Marcos> AB: for use, we have abstract protocol handler…
# [17:29] <chaals> s/EE:/EU:/
# [17:29] <chaals> s/EE:/EU:/
# [17:29] <chaals> s/EE:/EU:/
# [17:29] <chaals> s/EE:/EU:/
# [17:29] <chaals> s/EE:/EU:/
# [17:30] <Marcos> EU: It sounds like we have 3 different things that overlap.
# [17:30] <howard> Present+hao_wang
# [17:30] <Marcos> JS: I'm very interested in supporting the use cases, but 3 different ways is not good. I would like to find a way to avoid having 3 different APIs
# [17:30] * chaals proposes another API to unify them all: http://xkcd.com/927 ;)
# [17:31] <Marcos> JS: file saver could do everything you want
# [17:31] <Marcos> EU: it doesnt have a clean way to allow the user to open the file
# [17:31] <Marcos> JS: but it is fully API driven
# [17:32] <Marcos> JS: it would be nice to find a single way. So it would be nice to figure out what the requirements are consolidate them
# [17:32] <Marcos> AB: agree… we don't want to implement multiple API
# [17:32] <Marcos> CMN: its clear that we all want to support the use case…. and we don't want to tell devs how to use multiple APIs
# [17:32] <Marcos> [agreement]
# [17:33] <Marcos> AB: Can we talk about file API first
# [17:33] <Marcos> before moving on to stream
# [17:34] <Marcos> In the first page of the first page: readAsBinaryString… is there a strong use case for it? is that for legacy reasons?
# [17:34] <Marcos> JS: It is. But it's ok to drop it
# [17:34] <Marcos> AB: We would like to see it removed
# [17:34] <Marcos> JS: it's more legacy, so I'm ok with dropping it
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# [17:35] <Marcos> MC: Second question: do we really need the restrictions on the URL?
# [17:35] <Marcos> JS: I have not looked at the URL part
# [17:35] <Marcos> Arun has been working on it. But he would probably be interested in discussing it further
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# [17:36] <dom> RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
# [17:36] <RRSAgent> ok, dom; I will not start a new log at midnight
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# [17:37] <Marcos> AB: the third thing is a suggestion: a really common pattern is to have an URL that represents something (e.g., an image). So one of the things that we have implemented is boolean flag, that creates a one time URL. The first time it gets dereferenced, it loads and it goes away
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# [17:38] <Marcos> AB: final question, I'm wondering if it's ever possible to see the protocol version that is dereferenced in from the blob URL
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# [17:38] <Marcos> ?
# [17:38] <Marcos> AB: we proposed it's not necessary
# [17:38] <Marcos> JS: agree, but Arun should have a look
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# [17:39] <Marcos> JS: another proposal is to drop BlobBuilder in favour of a contructor
# [17:39] <adrianba> http://html5labs.com/streamsapi/
# [17:39] <Marcos> TOPIC: stream API
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# [17:40] <Marcos> when we started working on the blob API, a req was to have a blob whose size was unknown (a steam).
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# [17:41] <Marcos> AB: feedback we got was don't make it blob, make it something else… so it's how we ended up with at stream… so we have a Stream Reader, which allows you to covert to a blob. We make the stream available at ready state 3, instead of 4. It allows people to view media before the whole thing finishes
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# [17:42] <Marcos> E.g. in a mail app, you can start viewing stuff at readystate 3, and start showing it without waiting for the end… and start processing data as it downloads … use chuck upload as well
# [17:42] <Marcos> CMN: we have similar use cases
# [17:42] <Marcos> JS: so can you create streams?
# [17:43] <Marcos> AB: yes, we have a stream builder.
# [17:43] <Marcos> JS: it should interesting
# [17:44] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [17:44] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/01-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [17:44] <Marcos> JS: we had a contributor who did something similar, but what he did was as it progresses, but they grow incrementally until you get the blob that has the whole file… the blobs have a fixed size, so it just keeps growing… you always get unique blobs.
# [17:44] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [17:44] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, MikeSmith
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# [17:45] <Marcos> EU: AB's proposal it sounds interesting to me
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# [17:45] <Marcos> EU: is we have a stream object that we can convert to a blob would be good, so we can hand it to file writter
# [17:45] <Marcos> s/writter/writer
# [17:46] <Marcos> TOPIC: Testing
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# [17:46] <krisk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2011AprJun/0365.html
# [17:46] <euhrhane> [not necessarily convert to blob--possibly we'd just pass the stream to the FileWriter.
# [17:46] <euhrhane> ]
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# [17:47] <Marcos> KK: we need a more consistent way to do tests… and we don't have an approval process
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# [17:48] <Marcos> KK: my experience has been that when people start looking at tests they start finding issues. An approval process might help.
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# [17:48] <chaals> MC: It is difficult to approve tests where we auto-generate a ton of them. You can produce lots from WebIDL, and it is time-consuming to check each one.
# [17:49] <chaals> ... might be a good idea to look at a test generator, rather than the test.
# [17:49] <Marcos> KK: the tests I have seen have not been autogenerated.
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# [17:50] <Marcos> KK: maybe we can create task force, somewhere more focused to discuss testing
# [17:50] <JonathanJ> Present+ Jonathan_Jeon
# [17:50] <Marcos> CMN: not sure how we would do this
# [17:50] <Marcos> CMN: our experience is that people who make tests are usually not spec people
# [17:51] <Marcos> Wilhelm … introduces himself
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# [17:52] <chaals> q+
# [17:53] <Marcos> wilhelm: we had a meeting last thursday about testing… we need to make the tests simple, it would be good to have a standard…. we propose using testharnes.js (HTML5 WG is using it). have a look at test.w3.org. There are lots of tests there that use the test harness, so everyone can see how its done. We need someone to nag browser makers to get tests so we don't duplicate work.
# [17:54] <Marcos> CMN: So, do we need a sub group? wilhelm, how should we collaborate between Webapps and the Testing and Tools group.
# [17:54] <Eliot> http://w3c-test.org/
# [17:55] <Marcos> wilhelm: please contact us. For visual things, use ref-tests from the CSS working group. We are happy to collaborate and provide guidance.
# [17:55] <Marcos> CMN: but which group should we do it in?
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# [17:55] <heycam> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps-testsuite/2011Oct/
# [17:56] <Marcos> jG: there is already a mailing list. public-webapps-test-suite ?
# [17:56] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps-testsuite/
# [17:56] <Marcos> wilhelm: lets figure out what tests there are already
# [17:56] <Marcos> wilhelm: then we can see what tests are available
# [17:56] <chaals> ack ch
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# [17:58] <Marcos> KK: it think getting a good rhythm going… want to try something a little different. If we just do the list, that is ok. But we need some more active ways to do things… getting people to talk more.
# [17:59] <Marcos> JS: some feedback we had a while ago, it was harder to write tests than necessary. Because of the infrastructure, it made tests hard to write tests. W3C tests required more boilerplate than at Moz.
# [17:59] <Marcos> JS: at mozilla, we end up doing it our own way to because its easier and faster
# [18:00] <Marcos> JG: yes, there is a bit more work involved with the W3C tests.
# [18:00] <Marcos> +q
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# [18:00] <chaals> q+
# [18:00] <Marcos> +q marcos
# [18:00] <chaals> q+ marcos
# [18:00] <krisk> q+ krisk
# [18:01] <Marcos> JS: the number of tests you get is affected by how easy to write the tests
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# [18:01] <Marcos> JG: I've had a different experience
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# [18:03] <chaals> CM: How does HTML test group work cmpared to not having one?
# [18:03] <chaals> JG: Well...
# [18:03] <chaals> KK: Yes
# [18:03] <chaals> MC: having tests be very easily accessible with an interface is really helpful - especially when linked to the spec.
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# [18:05] <krisk> HTML started a taskforce two years ago
# [18:05] <krisk> Before that their was no html5 tests
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# [18:05] <Marcos> CMN: my experience is the same similar to JG and JS… when you pay people, you get people making good tests. But also making them easier to write for volunteers, also helps. As KK suggested, we need review.
# [18:05] <Marcos> CMN: it seems like it's an action on the chair
# [18:06] <krisk> today we have a large number of tests across a number of features that are implemented in browsers today
# [18:06] <Marcos> wilhelm: writing a good test suite is as hard writing a spec. We should have a dedicated person to write a test suite (equal to the editor).
# [18:07] <Marcos> CMN: how many person think there should be a dedicated testing person for a spec?
# [18:07] <Marcos> [plenty of agreement]
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# [18:08] <Marcos> MC: we could make it a requirement that no spec start without also having dedicated tester
# [18:09] <Marcos> CM: not every org has dedicated spec people.
# [18:09] <chaals> MC: It is fundamental to have tests, so you can't seperate without being able to get a test suite.
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# [18:10] <Marcos> JG: this person does not need to write the tests… the person would have the responsibility to source the tests.
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# [18:10] <Marcos> JG: it does not mean that only one person would write all the tests (if any)
# [18:11] <Marcos> wilhelm: if you have 15 specs, you can break up the task amongst multiple people
# [18:12] <Marcos> CM: does it have to be a different person than the editor?
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# [18:12] <dom> ryosuke
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# [18:12] <Marcos> RN: when do you need to involve a testing person?
# [18:13] <Marcos> … discussion… identifying them from the start
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# [18:14] <Marcos> DS: that has traditionally been the role of the editor
# [18:15] <chaals> RN: What's the diffrence?
# [18:15] <chaals> MC: It can alleviate the load of the editor
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# [18:16] <chaals> ... we need to discuss what to do when you generate tests and then the spec changes - how do you avoid starting too early or too late
# [18:17] <Marcos> RN: but we still not clear when we should have tests
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# [18:17] <Marcos> DS: for DOM 3, I've requested that people contribute tests… but didn't get much back
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# [18:18] <wma_> RRSAgent: draft minutes
# [18:18] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/01-webapps-minutes.html wma_
# [18:18] <Marcos> DS: I would like to have a req that before a spec progresses to CR, it should have a test suite
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# [18:18] <Marcos> CMN: it seems reasonable as a first step to appoint someone for testing.
# [18:18] <Josh_Soref> Present+ Josh_Soref
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# [18:19] <Marcos> RESOLUTION: We will insist that when work on a new spec, a person be appointed to handle testing
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# [18:20] <Marcos> KK: as DS said, we should have something in the process so specs can't move to CR without a test suite
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# [18:21] <Marcos> DS: part of LC would benefit from a test suite.
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# [18:21] <Marcos> http://www.w3.org/TR/test-methodology/
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# [18:24] <Marcos> CMN: problem is that is expensive to produce tests… so, we don't want a process heavy way of making tests…
# [18:24] <Josh_Soref> s/that is/that it is/
# [18:24] <Marcos> JG: Tests really only come out when people are implementing stuff
# [18:25] <Marcos> JG: implementers who want to have a bug free implementation are going to produce tests
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# [18:26] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [18:26] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/01-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
# [18:26] <Marcos> CMN: another group to get test from is non-browser vendors (e.g., content providers)/.… how do we talk to those people?
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# [18:27] <Marcos> JG and JS say there are a few examples of people who have done it…
# [18:27] <bryan> q+
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# [18:28] <Josh_Soref> q?
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# [18:28] * Josh_Soref anyone know why Zakim isn't responding to q?
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# [18:28] <Josh_Soref> q?
# [18:28] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:28] <Josh_Soref> q+ bryan
# [18:28] * Zakim sees bryan on the speaker queue
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# [18:30] <Marcos> KK: happy help to set up guidelines
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# [18:31] <Marcos> DS: if we have a good way to contribute tests, that would help
# [18:31] <ArtB> WebApps' Test Submission process: http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/Submission
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# [18:31] <Josh_Soref> ack
# [18:31] <Josh_Soref> s/ack//
# [18:31] <Josh_Soref> ack bryan
# [18:31] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:32] <Josh_Soref> RRSAgent: draft minutes
# [18:32] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/01-webapps-minutes.html Josh_Soref
# [18:32] <Josh_Soref> s/RRSAgent: draft minutes//
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# [18:32] <Josh_Soref> s/RRSAgent: draft minutes//
# [18:32] <Josh_Soref> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [18:32] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/01-webapps-minutes.html Josh_Soref
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# [18:33] <Marcos> BS: one of the best ways to learn is by doing. We need really good guidelines, so test examples are good. Looking to service providers and universities to help use build tests would be good… it benefits lots the whole community.
# [18:33] <Marcos> CMN: the public tests can vary in quality
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# [18:34] <Marcos> Israel: when is the right point to do testing?
# [18:35] <Marcos> JS: I don't care what the tests are and what they are targeting, as long as we get lots of good tests
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# [18:35] <ArtB> Present+ Robin, Cameron, JamesG, Dom, Jonas, Doug, Chaals, Kris, BrianR, Magnus, ArtB, MikeSmith, EricU, LaszloG, Sakkari, WayneCarr
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# [18:36] <Josh_Soref> q+ to say you're either implementing or using someone's implementation or planning to use it
# [18:36] * Zakim sees Josh_Soref on the speaker queue
# [18:36] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [18:36] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/01-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
# [18:37] <Marcos> JG: it's never too early
# [18:37] <ArtB> Meeting: WebApps f2f meeting
# [18:37] <Marcos> MC: I agree
# [18:37] <ArtB> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/TPAC2011#Agenda_Tuesday.2C_November_1
# [18:37] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [18:37] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/01-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
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# [18:38] <Marcos> DS: who is going to enforce this policy?
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# [18:38] <Marcos> CMN: good will :)
# [18:38] <Marcos> CMN: there is no formal policy that we can enforce
# [18:38] <Josh_Soref> ack me
# [18:38] <Zakim> Josh_Soref, you wanted to say you're either implementing or using someone's implementation or planning to use it
# [18:39] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:39] <Marcos> JS: hopefully you are implementing this feature… people have a vested interest in the spec and hence produce tests
# [18:39] <ArtB> Chair: Chaals, Art
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# [18:40] <Marcos> ACTION: Art and Charles to make a proposal about how to appoint a person to be assigned for testing for a spec.
# [18:40] * RRSAgent records action 1
# [18:40] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [18:40] <trackbot> Created ACTION-637 - And Charles to make a proposal about how to appoint a person to be assigned for testing for a spec. [on Arthur Barstow - due 2011-11-08].
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# [18:42] <Marcos> [BREAK]
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# [18:46] <dowan> present+ Dowan
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# [18:59] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [18:59] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/01-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
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# [19:15] <chaals> Topic: API design
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# [19:16] <chaals> MC: we're getting frustrated trying to write APIs because a lot of stuff coming out we don't necessrily understand the design patterns - or when WAC brings in an API it doesn't look like a Web API and they lose out on uptake.
# [19:17] <chaals> ... so we ae trying to reduce the "not invented here" thing by being able to get in APIs that match what we think of.
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# [19:17] <chaals> ... so we are lookig to create general guidance (rather than formal requirements) - what WebIDL gives you, how do you describe throwing an excepetion and what does that mean, etc.
# [19:18] <chaals> ... It's a friendly list for editors to find information that is helpful.
# [19:18] <chaals> ... The ideas have all been under development, and effectively black magic in people's heads that wasn't available to others.
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# [19:19] <chaals> ... Would also encourage people working on frameworks to help us work out how we can make things more easily.
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# [19:20] * ArtB likes the ideal of: Web IDL for Dummies
# [19:20] <chaals> RB: To avoid making this exess make-work, when you understand something about a design pattern you haven't thought of, just drop in a rough email. Don't bother trying to get it right and perfect, dump the half idea and let Marcos and me figure out how to explain.
# [19:20] <bryan> q+
# [19:20] * Zakim sees bryan on the speaker queue
# [19:20] <WayneCarr> present+ WayneCarr
# [19:20] <chaals> [throwing exceptions, defining events, how to use dictionaries, etc]
# [19:21] <chaals> BS: Would like to have had a discussion not just about JS/DOM APIs, but also other things happening here like things on abstract resources handled by the browser.
# [19:21] <chaals> ... We see a number of patterns - trying to understand the rationales for that is important.
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# [19:22] <chaals> i/Topic:/Scribe: Chaals/
# [19:22] <bryan> Here is the link to the draft presentation I had prepared for the TPAC discussion on this topic. It captures some of the questions we had and the objectives for a discussion: http://bkaj.net/w3c/TPAC-2011-API-Design-Patterns.html
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# [19:22] <chaals> ... why is video a tag, why is event-source an API, etc.
# [19:22] <chaals> AR: Trying to understand if the intent is to capture the way things are done, or what we think would be an ideal design pattern.
# [19:23] <chaals> MC: We are trying to figure it out too...
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# [19:23] <chaals> q+
# [19:23] * Zakim sees bryan, chaals on the speaker queue
# [19:23] <chaals> ack br
# [19:23] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
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# [19:24] <chaals> RB: A large element is a cookbook. Editors do something, someone says it is a bad way, they don't wnderstand why and just want to make something that works. Goal is to make editing easier
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# [19:26] <chaals> CMN: I'd find the historical explanations useful
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# [19:26] <chaals> ... What's the future of this? A note, what?
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# [19:26] <chaals> AR: If we write down what people do now we perpetuate it and that is bad.
# [19:26] <chaals> MC: We propose this as a note - a useful thing for the community.
# [19:26] <chaals> ... we are trying to help consistency.
# [19:26] <chaals> AR: Consistency is good.
# [19:27] <chaals> CM: Helping editors construct prose and interfaces to match what other people are doing is good. I agree also that it is good to document the rationale.
# [19:27] <chaals> ... it isn't just a matter of people agreeing, because there are real disagreements right now.
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# [19:27] <chaals> MC: Yes, we don't just want to codify what people are doing now, because we don't want to describe how to do things wrong...
# [19:27] <chaals> AR: The point isn't to make a normative requirement set, right?
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# [19:28] <chaals> CM: We don't have a general place to do this at the moment...
# [19:28] <chaals> RB: THere are a lot of people who are here??
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# [19:28] <chaals> ??: Is this less about general API design and more about particular things that you want to do - events or callback? what is a webby error? ...
# [19:29] <chaals> RB: Yep.
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# [19:29] <chaals> [examples of different approaches]
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# [19:29] <chaals> ... Not sure a document can recommend aright way, but might describe a possible set of ways to do so.
# [19:30] <chaals> MC: Ca Can show examples, and why they did it.
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# [19:30] <chaals> JS: Think this is a great idea. I'd like to know e.g. how you should write a callback-based approach and why. I'd love to have more input from people who write JS.
# [19:31] <chaals> ... in particular, from more than two people who do the same thing already. Take into account beginners, who are not here.
# [19:31] <chaals> ... most important peopl to get input from are not in the room
# [19:31] <Travis_MSFT> s/??:/Travis_MSFT:/
# [19:31] <chaals> RB: E.g. JQuery standards group
# [19:31] <chaals> JS: Right. We should talk to those guys.
# [19:32] <chaals> AR: I can tell you what to do ;)
# [19:32] <chaals> Suresh: Good examples are important. We should do this across different WGs. ANd there are different groups that have very fdifferent patterns, e.g. geolocation.
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# [19:33] <chaals> RB: Yes. People outside this WG don't know or care about working group boundaries.
# [19:33] <nvbalaji> Not suresh. I am Balaji (nvbalaji)
# [19:33] <nvbalaji> :-)
# [19:33] <heycam> s/Suresh/Balaji/
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# [19:34] <Kai> s/Balaji/nvbalaji
# [19:34] <chaals> CMN: I think the TAG has a role here - at least in the structure. I don't think we want to palm this off to the TAG, but I think they have a role as custodians of these large questions.
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# [19:35] <chaals> NM: I don't think TAG has "the expertise" here, and we don't want to repeat other people's work. We don't necessarily have an opinion here, but we are intersted in how these questions are resolved in different places.
# [19:36] <chaals> ... THere are things that are deep architectural things. When you have APIs, over time, you want to evolve things - and you can't install a flag day on the web.
# [19:36] <chaals> MC: You were involved in the "architecture of the Web document" - are there relevant lessons from communicating, the experience of doing it, etc?
# [19:38] <chaals> NM: Web arch is different to architecture documents I have seen. Architecture documents in IBM answered specific questions to say "did you do this right or not?" Web Arch is more informal - and is a retrospective document, not prescriptive. Tim wrote design notes for the web, which found their way into Web Arch (specific "thoughts")
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# [19:38] <chaals> ... I think good architecture can be related to use cases.
# [19:39] <chaals> ... Invent good stuff, think about the use cases, think about architecture. but the web arch document is very backwards-focused - what was important in a running system.
# [19:40] <chaals> DS: +1 to this - it costs a lot of time and frustration for people to do APIs wrong without knowing where they are going. We shouldn't reinforce anti-patterns, but ahving a document that says why they are anti-patterns and what other patterns could be used is useful.
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# [19:41] <chaals> BS: What I get out of this is "yeah, we need this discussion..."
# [19:41] <chaals> [kibbitzing on list choice]
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# [19:43] <ArtB> Scribe: ArtB
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# [19:43] <ArtB> Topic: D3E and DOM4 Redux
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# [19:44] <ArtB> JR: IE9 implemented 100% of the spec
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# [19:44] <ArtB> … think other browsers implemented about ~60% of D3E
# [19:44] <ArtB> CM: so, I think the Editors are OK with making the requested changes
# [19:44] <ArtB> … is that a fair characterization?
# [19:44] <ArtB> Sam: other than IE, who will implement this?
# [19:45] <ArtB> JR: Olli Pettay has been involved
# [19:45] <ArtB> .. I don't know about Google
# [19:45] <ArtB> JS: I talked to Olli
# [19:45] <ArtB> … we intentionally remvoved ExceptionEvent
# [19:45] <heycam> [There may be confusion in the minutes at some points between CM and CMN. :)]
# [19:45] <ArtB> … Olli is not as concerned about edge cases AvK and Ojan mentioned
# [19:46] <ArtB> … We do implement a lot of the spec
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# [19:46] <ArtB> … Not sure if we will implement all of it
# [19:46] <ArtB> … and the parts we may not implement are features that matter
# [19:46] <ArtB> DS: D3E is a subset of DOM4 re the events
# [19:46] <ArtB> … we changed the spec to not have conflicts with DOM4
# [19:47] <heycam> Present+ Cameron
# [19:47] <jrossi2> q+
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# [19:47] <ArtB> [ scribe missed James's comments ]
# [19:48] <gsnedders> Subset of DOM4? I thought it was a superset, containing additional things like ExceptionEvent.
# [19:48] <ArtB> Ojan: re Sam's question
# [19:48] <jgraham> Have we considered dropping the parts of D3E that overlap with DOM4?
# [19:48] <ArtB> … I can't give an official Google positin
# [19:48] <anne> gsnedders, mismatch, if you will
# [19:48] <ArtB> … but there are parts we would implement and some parts we won't
# [19:48] <ArtB> Sam: specifics please
# [19:48] <ArtB> Ojan: there would be a long list
# [19:49] <ArtB> … text input event has an input method
# [19:49] <ArtB> … I don't think WK will implement it
# [19:49] <ArtB> … key and char properties
# [19:49] <ArtB> … are problematic
# [19:49] <ArtB> … but we havent done a detailed analysis
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# [19:49] <ArtB> Doug: please send that to the list
# [19:50] <ArtB> Jonas: re taking D3E stuff out of DOM4
# [19:50] <ArtB> … Ojan's list doesn't help with that
# [19:50] <ArtB> Ojan: I expect WK to implement DOM4
# [19:50] <ArtB> Jonas: for the parts that are the same, it doesn't matter
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# [19:51] <ArtB> … I talked to Olli and my position is the concern is about the long time for DOM4 to ship
# [19:51] <gsnedders> Only if they are word-for-word the same, otherwise there might be accidental differences.
# [19:51] <ArtB> … it keeps adding features
# [19:51] <ArtB> Anne: we are removing features
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# [19:51] <ArtB> … only event constructors are new
# [19:52] <ArtB> Jonas: what about mutation?
# [19:52] <ArtB> Anne: not there yet
# [19:52] <ArtB> … but they could be
# [19:52] <ArtB> Jonas: concerned about a continuously evolving spec that never finishes
# [19:52] <ArtB> … we need to ship something
# [19:52] <ArtB> … and D3E is done
# [19:53] <ArtB> … My concern is no clear signs of DOM4 actually shipping
# [19:53] <ArtB> … I think we can ship D3E sooner
# [19:53] <ArtB> Marcos: I don't agree
# [19:53] <ArtB> … think DOM4 is in good shape
# [19:54] <ArtB> CM: as Chair, we have a responsibility to ship specs
# [19:54] <ArtB> … I realize some people don't agree with that
# [19:54] <ArtB> … but that belief is not aligned with the WG
# [19:54] <ArtB> … by shipping I mean publishing a Recommendation
# [19:55] <ArtB> … Re Jonas' comments, we need to ship a spec
# [19:55] <gsnedders> One option for mutations events is surely to make them a module of their own?
# [19:55] <ArtB> … don't want a bunch of nit picks
# [19:55] <gsnedders> In which case DOM4 is more-or-less done
# [19:55] <ArtB> … that keep coming in
# [19:55] <ArtB> … think the spec is good
# [19:55] <gsnedders> (in terms of getting to a point where LC is possible)
# [19:55] <ArtB> … We could cut stuff out
# [19:55] <ArtB> … by reading the tea leaves of DOM4
# [19:56] <ArtB> … and if DOM4 changes, we can rev D3E
# [19:56] <ArtB> … I don't want to keep going in circles
# [19:57] <ArtB> … that costs lots of time and money for everyone
# [19:57] <ArtB> … for Editors and Implemeters
# [19:57] <ArtB> Doug: the parts under contention are from original DOM specs
# [19:57] <ArtB> … D2E is too old
# [19:57] <ArtB> … If DOM4 parts are better and stable
# [19:58] <ArtB> … and reconcile the 2 specs
# [19:58] <ArtB> … We could drop stuff from D3E if problematic
# [19:58] <ArtB> … and then go to LC
# [19:58] <ArtB> … I am willing to change spec to follow DOM4 where it matches implementations
# [19:59] <ArtB> … I can see AvK's approach is useful
# [19:59] <ArtB> … and successful
# [19:59] <ArtB> … so now we change D3E to match
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# [19:59] <ArtB> … I still contend a D3E REC is useful
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# [20:00] <ArtB> RN: is it possible to drop those parts not implemented or are controversial?
# [20:00] <ArtB> DS: yes, that can happen in CR
# [20:00] <ArtB> … that's kinda' expected
# [20:00] <ArtB> CM: need to agree on what's controversial and what's not
# [20:00] <ArtB> … and that requires drawing a line in the sand
# [20:01] <ArtB> … need browser vendors and others to define what's controversial
# [20:01] <ArtB> … We need to make a decision
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# [20:01] <ArtB> … DOM4 is trying to make the situation better
# [20:01] <ArtB> … but we also have people that need to ship product now
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# [20:02] <ArtB> … and of course we have the users of the APIs to consider
# [20:02] <gsnedders> One option is to proceed to CR, and see what parts meet the CR exit critera, and move from there.
# [20:02] <ArtB> … How important is it to ship a REC?
# [20:02] <ArtB> … Need to define the features as implemented today
# [20:03] <ArtB> Jonas: I don't want to have anything in D3E that DOM4 deprecates
# [20:03] <ArtB> … need to look at EventException
# [20:03] <ArtB> Jacob: I agree re deprecation
# [20:04] <ArtB> … I think we want to move fwd with constructors
# [20:04] * Parts: Wonsuk (wonsuk11_l@63.145.238.4)
# [20:04] <ArtB> … think we need to talk to talk about specific events
# [20:04] <ArtB> … and we can deprecate some events
# [20:04] <ArtB> … We should make sure the two specs are synch'ed
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# [20:05] <ArtB> RN: can we drop the IDL interfaces?
# [20:05] <ArtB> CM: we agreed yesterday that WebIDL will be used
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# [20:06] <ArtB> Jacob: need to work together to get a list of incompatibilites
# [20:06] <ArtB> … then we fix them
# [20:06] <ArtB> … then we we go back to LC
# [20:06] <ArtB> … There is a lot of feedback since D2Events
# [20:07] <ArtB> … If there are change requests, must open a Bug with Bugzilla
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# [20:07] <ArtB> CM: let's ask Anne if he can help with this?
# [20:07] <ArtB> Anne: yes
# [20:07] <ArtB> CM: so Jacob made a proposal?
# [20:08] * Quits: gopal (graghava@63.145.238.4) (Ping timeout)
# [20:08] <ArtB> … Who supports this proposal?
# [20:08] <ArtB> … 15 people supported the proposal
# [20:08] <ArtB> … Does anyone object to that proposal?
# [20:09] <ArtB> … there were NO objections
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# [20:09] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [20:09] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/01-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
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# [20:14] * smaug reads the minutes and notes that DOM4 certainly has lots of more new stuff than just event ctors
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# [20:45] <Ms2ger> smaug, such as? Apart from the new exceptions, we only really have legacy stuff and some things from HTML
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# [20:50] <smaug> Ms2ger: many parameters are optional
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# [20:50] <smaug> DOM range isn't backwards compatible etc
# [20:50] <smaug> Ms2ger: I agree the changes are usually good
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# [20:51] <Ms2ger> Mm, I guess you can say that
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# [21:22] <Josh_Soref> present+ Josh_Soref
# [21:22] <Josh_Soref> Scribe: Josh_Soref
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# [21:24] <Ms2ger> No calling in today?
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# [21:24] <jgraham> I think it is possible to set that up if you want
# [21:24] * Josh_Soref we can open the bridge
# [21:25] <smaug> what is the topic?
# [21:25] <jgraham> Although the evidence is that you don't really exist
# [21:25] <Ms2ger> Topic: XBL2 and Component Model
# [21:25] * Ms2ger AIUI
# [21:25] * Josh_Soref we're waiting for people to round up hixie and sicking
# [21:25] * Ms2ger Sure, Dr. Graham
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# [21:26] <heycam> Zakim, what is this?
# [21:26] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, heycam.
# [21:26] * Ms2ger Anyway, my AI works better on voices
# [21:26] <heycam> Zakim, code?
# [21:26] <Zakim> sorry, heycam, I don't know what conference this is
# [21:26] <heycam> Zakim, room for 4?
# [21:26] <Zakim> ok, heycam; conference Team_(webapps)20:20Z scheduled with code 26632 (CONF2) for 60 minutes until 2120Z
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# [21:26] <heycam> Zakim, this is webapps
# [21:26] <Zakim> ok, heycam; that matches RWC_WAPI(WebAppsWG)12:00PM
# [21:26] <heycam> Zakim, code?
# [21:26] <Zakim> the conference code is 2011 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), heycam
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# [21:27] <Zakim> +??P1
# [21:27] <smaug> Zakim, ??P1 is Olli_Pettay
# [21:27] <Zakim> +Olli_Pettay; got it
# [21:28] <smaug> Zakim, nick smaug is Olli_Pettay
# [21:28] <Zakim> ok, smaug, I now associate you with Olli_Pettay
# [21:28] <heycam> Zakim, who is on the call?
# [21:28] <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P0, Olli_Pettay
# [21:28] * heycam still having trouble dialling in from this end
# [21:28] * smaug tries to follow the discussion in the background for some time
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# [21:31] <ArtB> Scribe: Josh_Soref
# [21:31] * heycam we will begin while the tech people here try and fix the phone
# [21:31] <anne> how many engineers does it take to dial a number?
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# [21:31] <anne> 0, you just ask the hotel staff
# [21:31] * chaals tells Anne: 16177626000
# [21:31] <Josh_Soref> Topic: XBL2 and Component Model
# [21:32] <Josh_Soref> AlexRussel: Alex Russel, from Google
# [21:32] <Josh_Soref> ... we have a proposal for Component Model
# [21:32] <Josh_Soref> ... and there's a belief that there's overlap with XBL2
# [21:33] <Josh_Soref> ... we'd like to understand the WebApp's community view on the landscape
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# [21:33] <Josh_Soref> ... and we'd rather have an either-or and not an and
# [21:33] <Josh_Soref> ... I'd like to get a sense of the current implementers' view on XBL2
# [21:33] <Josh_Soref> weinig: Sam, Apple
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# [21:34] <Josh_Soref> ... we've discussed this a bunch of times
# [21:34] <Josh_Soref> ... Apple's iggest concern is the lack of a well formed declaritive model
# [21:34] * smaug can't hear anything
# [21:34] <Josh_Soref> ... it's also a bit disingenous
# [21:34] * Josh_Soref bridge isn't open, sorry
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# [21:34] <Josh_Soref> ... to say XBL2 is dead long live component model
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# [21:35] <Josh_Soref> ... and then to say it's similar and has overlapping goals
# [21:35] <Josh_Soref> AlexRussel: we assume them to be exclusive
# [21:35] <Josh_Soref> ... and our view is that they are
# [21:35] <Josh_Soref> ... the lack of a declarative model that's fully specified
# [21:35] <Josh_Soref> ... is something that we've taken as something
# [21:35] * smaug agrees that there needs to be a well formed declarative model
# [21:35] <Josh_Soref> ... and we'll work on
# [21:35] <Josh_Soref> ... Parser Integration, Shadow DOM,
# [21:36] <Josh_Soref> ... what we'll do with behavioral pattern
# [21:36] <Josh_Soref> anne: We'd like Cross Origin
# [21:36] <Josh_Soref> ... for things like Like / +1 buttons
# [21:36] <Josh_Soref> ... I don't think the goals of cross-origin and bindings
# [21:36] <Josh_Soref> ... are compatible
# [21:36] <Josh_Soref> weinig: I think it's valuale to have a component technology for the web
# [21:37] <Josh_Soref> ... XBL2 and the new proposals are both two different directions
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# [21:37] <weinig> s|weinig|maciej|
# [21:37] * smaug also doesn't like the ideas to support x-foo-element, but isn't sure if those ideas have been dropped already
# [21:37] <Josh_Soref> .. otoh the framing of this
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# [21:37] <Josh_Soref> s/../.../
# [21:37] <Josh_Soref> ... is XXX
# [21:37] <Josh_Soref> ... otoh the new proposals are fragmentary, not specified in sufficient detail
# [21:37] <Josh_Soref> ... and i'm not convinced they're in the right direction
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# [21:38] <Josh_Soref> ... i need to see something that looks good, and currently neither looks totally right
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# [21:38] <Josh_Soref> sicking: my view is that something between xbl2 and component model is the right approach
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# [21:38] <Josh_Soref> ... i think taking xbl2 and using it and cutting things out is more in the right direction
# [21:38] <Josh_Soref> ... than the proposal i've seen from you guys
# [21:38] * smaug agrees with sicking
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# [21:39] <Josh_Soref> ... it's hard to see too strong of a comment given the lack of a proposal for the declarative model
# [21:39] <Josh_Soref> ... even though xbl2 has a lot of complexity
# [21:39] <Josh_Soref> [ Scribe reports that smaug agrees with sicking ]
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# [21:39] <Josh_Soref> weinig: i also agree with sicking
# [21:39] <Josh_Soref> dg: I disagree
# [21:40] <Josh_Soref> s/dg/dglazkov/
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# [21:40] <Josh_Soref> ... because if we do it, we'll end up with a completely different spec
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# [21:40] <Josh_Soref> ... if we cut things out, we'll have to reinvent the parsing
# [21:40] <Josh_Soref> ... we'll have to deal with event forwarding
# [21:40] <Zakim> -??P0
# [21:40] <Josh_Soref> sicking: i disagree, event forwarding is needed
# [21:40] <Josh_Soref> dglazkov: event forwarding/event retargeting are different things
# [21:41] <Josh_Soref> ... the general approach of the component model
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# [21:41] <Josh_Soref> .... is that you subclass
# [21:41] <Josh_Soref> ... shadow DOM is something you get
# [21:41] <Josh_Soref> .... i do not think it's a good idea to treeat the component model is just a single spec
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# [21:41] <Josh_Soref> ... because the different pieces can stand on their own
# [21:41] <Josh_Soref> s/..../.../
# [21:41] <Josh_Soref> s/..../.../
# [21:42] <Josh_Soref> ... we already have two different specs
# [21:42] <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [21:42] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/01-webapps-minutes.html Ms2ger
# [21:42] <Josh_Soref> ... confinement is a problem outside of components
# [21:42] * Josh_Soref thanks Ms2ger in advance for fixing typos
# [21:42] <Josh_Soref> .... you want to run scripts confined, instead of just in iframes
# [21:42] <Josh_Soref> s/..../.../
# [21:42] <Josh_Soref> ... that said, i think it would be a useful exercise for those who believe we should keep xbl2
# [21:43] <Josh_Soref> ... to go over it and see if it's doable
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# [21:43] <Ms2ger> s/valuale/valuable/
# [21:43] <Josh_Soref> ... if they could go over it tomorrow for 30 minutes
# [21:43] <Josh_Soref> sicking: to make actual decisions which we're not at that stage
# [21:43] <Josh_Soref> .... we need more concrete proposals
# [21:43] <Josh_Soref> .... to have discussions here/now
# [21:43] <Josh_Soref> s/..../.../
# [21:43] <Josh_Soref> s/..../.../
# [21:43] * Ms2ger Sticky . key?
# [21:43] <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [21:43] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/01-webapps-minutes.html Ms2ger
# [21:43] <Josh_Soref> ... we'll need actual proposals to make
# [21:44] * Josh_Soref hihgh latency
# [21:44] <Josh_Soref> ... decisions
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# [21:44] * Josh_Soref possibly sticky key
# [21:44] * Ms2ger Josh_Soref, these don't work, actually
# [21:44] <Josh_Soref> dglazkov: what's the right forum and what's the best format
# [21:44] * Josh_Soref sighs
# [21:44] <Ms2ger> s|s/..../.../||
# [21:44] <Zakim> -Olli_Pettay
# [21:44] <Josh_Soref> sicking: brainstorming session if we get the right people
# [21:44] <Zakim> RWC_WAPI(WebAppsWG)12:00PM has ended
# [21:44] <Zakim> Attendees were Olli_Pettay
# [21:44] <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [21:44] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/01-webapps-minutes.html Ms2ger
# [21:44] <Josh_Soref> ... if we get the apple people, and hixie
# [21:45] <Josh_Soref> [ hixie is behind you ]
# [21:45] <Josh_Soref> sicking: and start sort of drafting some vague proposals
# [21:45] * Ms2ger gives up on s///s
# [21:45] <Josh_Soref> dglazkov: +1
# [21:45] <Josh_Soref> mjs: i like seeing proposals
# [21:45] <Josh_Soref> ... two things, about evaluating them
# [21:45] <Josh_Soref> ... often it's really hard to evaluate things independently
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# [21:46] <Josh_Soref> ... without evaluating the whole system design
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# [21:46] <Josh_Soref> ... whlie people doing the core design work may have thhe whole thing in their head in a vauge whay
# [21:46] * darobin Zakim, code?
# [21:46] * Zakim the conference code is 2011 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), darobin
# [21:46] <Josh_Soref> ... second thing is it's important to have proposals drilling out in a detailed way
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# [21:46] * quaddle is now known as jcantera
# [21:46] <Josh_Soref> ... but when you lay out the full details, you see problems that become very complex to address
# [21:47] <Josh_Soref> ... and it's hard to give a full review of a relatively high level sketch
# [21:47] <Josh_Soref> [ bridge dialing ]
# [21:47] <dglazkov> http://wiki.whatwg.org/index.php?title=Component_Model
# [21:47] <Josh_Soref> dglazkov: we have a proposal
# [21:47] <Josh_Soref> ... it provides a very good overview
# [21:47] <Josh_Soref> ... it tries to capture the big picture
# [21:47] <Zakim> RWC_WAPI(WebAppsWG)12:00PM has now started
# [21:47] <Zakim> +tpac
# [21:47] <Josh_Soref> ... i have gone over a small part of it at our powwow at mozilla all hands
# [21:47] * Zakim Josh_Soref, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
# [21:48] <Josh_Soref> ... but i didn't go over the whole thing
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# [21:48] <Josh_Soref> dglazkov: as far as details, i agree, details are hard
# [21:48] <Josh_Soref> ... i welcome ideas
# [21:48] <Josh_Soref> ... ewe tend to work on this in person.
# [21:48] <Josh_Soref> ... it brings certain isolation as most of us are working for the same company
# [21:49] <Josh_Soref> ... even posting things in public is not enough
# [21:49] <Josh_Soref> s/ewe/we/
# [21:49] <Josh_Soref> dglazkov: and it turns out everyone is busy
# [21:49] <Josh_Soref> dcooney: i agree with dglazkov
# [21:49] <Josh_Soref> ... there was a complaint that proposals so far don't have a detailed declarative syntax
# [21:49] <Josh_Soref> ... and we'll address that.
# [21:50] <Josh_Soref> ... i'd like to encourage people to avoid taking some simplistic view
# [21:50] <Zakim> +??P1
# [21:50] <Josh_Soref> ... that declarative and XXX need to be mirrored.
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# [21:50] * Ms2ger thanks!
# [21:50] <Josh_Soref> AlexRussel: there is, there's the form element v. xmlhttprequest
# [21:50] <dglazkov> s/XXX/imperative
# [21:50] <Josh_Soref> dcooney: some things just won't be expressable in both
# [21:51] * smaug would really like to see the declarative syntax before evaluating the proposal
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# [21:51] <Josh_Soref> weinig: i certainly can understand not jumping to conclusions about individual pieces
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# [21:51] <Josh_Soref> ... when we saw the demos of what would currently exist.
# [21:51] <Josh_Soref> ... it seems that it was working around things with hacks without a declarative syntax.
# [21:52] <Josh_Soref> AlexRussel: setting this up as an either or is misleading
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# [21:52] <Josh_Soref> ... our goal was to design declarative as a sugar on op of imperative
# [21:52] <Josh_Soref> ... at least a strong mirroring.
# [21:52] <Josh_Soref> ... can you define declarative with the imperative api?
# [21:52] <Josh_Soref> [ no ]
# [21:53] <Josh_Soref> sicking: this is what i disagree with
# [21:53] <Josh_Soref> ... we want to have bindings adding to css that are purely stylistic
# [21:53] <Josh_Soref> ... things with a different security model that are cross origin
# [21:53] <Josh_Soref> AlexRussel: if you don't have the plat capability
# [21:53] <Josh_Soref> ... if you can only do it declaratively
# [21:54] <Josh_Soref> ... you should do the archeology work to uncover the primitives and expose the,m
# [21:54] <adrianba> s/the,m/them/
# [21:54] <Josh_Soref> sicking: would you say style sheets are declarative sugar on the style attribute
# [21:54] <Josh_Soref> AlexRussel: i don't think that's the right question
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# [21:55] <Josh_Soref> ... they have a different semantic in terms of inheritance
# [21:55] <Josh_Soref> ... for bindings in xbl2
# [21:56] <Josh_Soref> ... what you're missing is a way to be tied into the application life cycle
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# [21:56] <Josh_Soref> ... treating style attributes as desugaring
# [21:56] <Josh_Soref> ... there's a missing bit of infrastructure
# [21:56] <Josh_Soref> ... it's the mechanism in which you're allowed to do i
# [21:56] <Josh_Soref> travis: Travis, Microsoft
# [21:56] <Josh_Soref> travis: i'd like to +1 the desire to move forward on specing on some balances of company's ideas
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# [21:57] <Josh_Soref> ... there's clearly value in dspecing out ideas outside of the ocmponent model.
# [21:57] <Josh_Soref> ... i'm interested in seeing that move forward even without a declaritive model.
# [21:57] <Josh_Soref> darobin: if there were a brainstorm model,. would you be interested?
# [21:57] <Josh_Soref> mjs: in practice, the declariative/imperative model, which will be the primary interface for developers?
# [21:58] <Josh_Soref> ... for people believe in declarative, the approach to design is based on that
# [21:58] <Josh_Soref> ... define that first
# [21:58] <adrianba> s/of company's/of Alex and company's/
# [21:58] <Josh_Soref> ... for people in imparative, the approach design's that first
# [21:58] <Josh_Soref> ... and make a sugar layer for a subset of the other
# [21:58] <Josh_Soref> ... that's the underliying phiulosophical difference
# [21:58] <Josh_Soref> ... hopefully once we have specs for this, we can comment on this
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# [21:59] <Josh_Soref> ... instead of hypothetical "i think this won't work""
# [21:59] <Josh_Soref> ... you can't predict if the layering will work unles you can see oth layers
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# [21:59] <Josh_Soref> dglazkov: it sounds like there will be a brainstorm tomorrow
# [21:59] <Josh_Soref> ... we have some proposals for declaraitve syntax
# [21:59] <Josh_Soref> ... if you enjoy half cooked meals
# [22:00] <Josh_Soref> ... we're tready to sreve them to you
# [22:00] <Josh_Soref> ... the problem is difficult
# [22:00] <Josh_Soref> ... what made xbl2 so difficult to spec and comprehend was the decorator concept
# [22:00] <Josh_Soref> ... the fact that you could ad and remove behaviors dynamically
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# [22:00] <Josh_Soref> ... i believe this is where we'll fall into despair tomorrow
# [22:00] <Josh_Soref> ... i recommend defering that question
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# [22:00] <dglazkov> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Behavior_Attachment
# [22:01] <Josh_Soref> ... there is a page where i outline th edifference between the two:
# [22:01] <Josh_Soref> [ bad sequence, lag ]
# [22:01] <Josh_Soref> dglazkov: subclassing is a very common thing that happens in many languages
# [22:01] <Josh_Soref> ... you add behaviors to a thing by extending it
# [22:01] <Josh_Soref> ... decorator is clsoer to an aspect oriented language
# [22:01] * Josh_Soref smaug/ms2ger: call in?
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# [22:01] <Josh_Soref> ... you can create xxx
# [22:02] * Ms2ger Josh_Soref I'm listening in
# [22:02] <Ms2ger> s/tready/ready/
# [22:02] <Josh_Soref> ... component model tackles element behavior attachment
# [22:02] <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [22:02] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/01-webapps-minutes.html Ms2ger
# [22:02] <Josh_Soref> ... and defers decorators
# [22:02] <Josh_Soref> darobin: i'm hearing agreement on seeing more specs and on a breakout/brainstorming tomorrow
# [22:02] <Josh_Soref> dglazkov: all day tomorrow?
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# [22:03] <Josh_Soref> darobin: there's no one form w3c here
# [22:03] <Josh_Soref> s/form/from/
# [22:03] <Josh_Soref> ... either it's outside the structure tomorrow
# [22:03] <Josh_Soref> ... you take a table and work it out
# [22:03] <heycam> Current schedule for the sessions tomorrow: http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2011#Session_Grid
# [22:03] <Zakim> +??P10
# [22:03] <Josh_Soref> ... or you go through channels tomorrow morning and propose
# [22:03] <smaug> Zakim, ??P10 is Olli_Pettay
# [22:03] <Zakim> +Olli_Pettay; got it
# [22:04] <Josh_Soref> darobin: we're enjoying the fact there's no team contact
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# [22:04] <Josh_Soref> [ people discuss the grid ]
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# [22:04] <Josh_Soref> darobin: 11:15am?
# [22:05] <Josh_Soref> heycam: i'd like to go to api design
# [22:05] <Josh_Soref> ... could we have it at 1:30pm?
# [22:05] <Josh_Soref> [ 1:30pm ]
# [22:05] * Josh_Soref did i get the right last speaker
# [22:05] <Josh_Soref> [ poll, who might show up? ]
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# [22:05] <Josh_Soref> darobin: about a dozen people
# [22:05] <Josh_Soref> mjs: i can't be here tomorrow, sorry
# [22:05] <Josh_Soref> darobin: anything else? sXBL?
# [22:06] * chaals goes to AC meeting.
# [22:06] <Josh_Soref> dglazkov: are we still considering sXBL?
# [22:06] <Josh_Soref> darobin: there's a point wrt Rechartering
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# [22:06] <Josh_Soref> mjs: i think everyone has agreed we want to do components
# [22:06] <Josh_Soref> ... and the disagreement about the starting point
# [22:06] <Josh_Soref> ... as long as the charter doesn't identify the name
# [22:07] <Josh_Soref> darobin: chaals we should ensure the Charter doesn't name the spec
# [22:07] <Josh_Soref> Topic: IndexDB
# [22:07] <Josh_Soref> [ People leave ]
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# [22:07] <smaug> s/Index/Indexed/
# [22:08] <smaug> is there some kind agenda online?
# [22:08] <Josh_Soref> sicking:it's been almost finished for 6 months
# [22:08] * Josh_Soref in trheory, yes
# [22:08] * Ms2ger smaug, see topic
# [22:08] * dglazkov second item on the sicking's list never gets done
# [22:08] <Josh_Soref> sicking: anyone from Google here to talk about this?
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# [22:09] <Josh_Soref> sicking: the only issue i know outstanding is error handling
# [22:09] <Josh_Soref> ... i don't know if we have filed bugs
# [22:09] <Josh_Soref> ... i can look tat u[p
# [22:09] <Josh_Soref> ... those might be more editorial
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# [22:10] * smaug will be back
# [22:10] <Josh_Soref> Israel: Israel from Microsoft
# [22:10] <Zakim> -Olli_Pettay
# [22:10] <Josh_Soref> sicking: there's not all editorial, but the ones i see are really small
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# [22:10] <Josh_Soref> michaeln: Michael N, Google
# [22:11] <Josh_Soref> sicking: Israel and I talked a bit about it over lunch
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# [22:11] <Josh_Soref> ... it seem s we might have agreement
# [22:11] <Josh_Soref> ... that error events aren't actually fired
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# [22:11] <Josh_Soref> ... There are two types of errors
# [22:11] <Josh_Soref> ... one associated with a request
# [22:11] <Josh_Soref> ... one isn't
# [22:12] <Josh_Soref> Israel: and one of those kinds is basically fatal
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# [22:12] <Josh_Soref> sicking: and we never arget ererors at the transaction
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# [22:12] <Josh_Soref> Israel: hopefully developers understand what they can do
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# [22:12] <Josh_Soref> sicking: that's actually drafted in the spec
# [22:12] <Josh_Soref> ... we should clarify that we're talking about that in this thread
# [22:12] <Josh_Soref> ... and confirm people are ok w/ that solution
# [22:12] <Josh_Soref> ... beyond that, we could go through the buglist
# [22:13] * Rossen is now known as rossen
# [22:13] <Josh_Soref> ... it's pretty simple stuff -13 bugs
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# [22:13] <Josh_Soref> darobin: anything we can close is good
# [22:13] <Josh_Soref> sicking: i suspect most require changes to the spec
# [22:13] <Josh_Soref> ... but we can coe to agreement
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# [22:13] <Josh_Soref> sicking: bug 14199
# [22:13] <Josh_Soref> ... just a bug in the spec
# [22:13] <Josh_Soref> ... bug 14201
# [22:14] <Josh_Soref> ... - mention of version change request, which is renamed - trivial change
# [22:14] <Josh_Soref> darobin: that's editorial
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# [22:14] <Josh_Soref> ... bug 14318
# [22:14] <Josh_Soref> ... - that's important to mozilla
# [22:14] <Josh_Soref> ... bug 14352
# [22:14] <Josh_Soref> ... - idl marking requirement
# [22:14] <Josh_Soref> ... editorial
# [22:15] <Josh_Soref> ... bug 14384
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# [22:15] <Josh_Soref> ... - that's an interesting quetion
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# [22:15] <Josh_Soref> ... currently we throw if readystate isn't done if you try to get result
# [22:15] <Josh_Soref> ... so you can't get the transaction during upgradeneeded, which is bad
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# [22:16] <Josh_Soref> ... - we should set readystate to done
# [22:16] <Josh_Soref> ... - not sure if that's the right fix
# [22:16] <Josh_Soref> ... we could do something special in this case
# [22:16] <Josh_Soref> ... it's the request from an open call
# [22:16] <Josh_Soref> Israel: there is a transaction, locking the whole database
# [22:16] <Josh_Soref> sicking: yes
# [22:16] <Josh_Soref> ... what should ready state be?
# [22:16] <Josh_Soref> ... done even though we haven't opened?
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# [22:17] <Josh_Soref> Israel: done seems fine
# [22:17] <Josh_Soref> sicking: bug 14389
# [22:17] <Josh_Soref> ... - i wanted alex here
# [22:17] <Josh_Soref> ... we have two callbacks in the spec in the sync api
# [22:17] <Josh_Soref> ... the two way sfor creating a transaction
# [22:17] * Quits: bryan (blsaws@63.145.238.4) (Ping timeout)
# [22:18] <Josh_Soref> ... currently they're [functiononly]
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# [22:18] <Josh_Soref> ... so you can't pass an object with a handleevent or similar
# [22:18] <Josh_Soref> ... i have no opinion on that
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# [22:18] <Josh_Soref> [ jonas explains to alex who just returned to the room ]
# [22:18] <Josh_Soref> sicking: is there value in supporting passing objects?
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# [22:19] <Josh_Soref> alexrussel: the object passing protocol is strange from a design perspective
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# [22:19] <JonathanJ> rrsagent, draft minutes
# [22:19] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/01-webapps-minutes.html JonathanJ
# [22:19] <Josh_Soref> ... you could have an object that handles lots of things
# [22:20] <Josh_Soref> ... the question from hj is "what's this?"
# [22:20] <Josh_Soref> s/hj/js/
# [22:20] <Josh_Soref> darobin: that's the benefit of using an Object
# [22:20] <Josh_Soref> alexrussel: I think passing an object whose members are named by the event
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# [22:21] <Josh_Soref> Josh_Soref: the idl lets you pick the function name on the object
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# [22:22] <Josh_Soref> sicking: this is part of the indexed db spec
# [22:22] <Josh_Soref> ... you pass it a callback for the transaction
# [22:22] <Josh_Soref> ... we can support function, or function-or-object
# [22:23] <Josh_Soref> Marcos: looking in general how JS is used
# [22:23] <Josh_Soref> ... many people don't use the object form
# [22:23] * Ms2ger Perhaps we need an API doc...
# [22:23] * Josh_Soref sigs
# [22:23] <smaug> =FunctionOnly should be removed from the spec
# [22:23] <Josh_Soref> mjs: to make this clear so we stop talking about handle event
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# [22:24] <Josh_Soref> mjs: can you give us the name of the name on the callback object
# [22:24] <Josh_Soref> darobin: what is the color of the bikeshed?
# [22:24] <Josh_Soref> Marcos: it's called handleEvent
# [22:24] <Josh_Soref> sicking: let's pretend we renamed this to transactionStart
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# [22:24] <Josh_Soref> ... it would be a single function name, since we only do one thing
# [22:25] <Josh_Soref> Zakim, who is on the call?
# [22:25] <Zakim> On the phone I see tpac, ??P1
# [22:25] * Ms2ger waves
# [22:25] <Josh_Soref> AlexRussel: if this is the beginning of having well named properties for callback objects, that's great
# [22:26] <Josh_Soref> [ scribe repeats what Smaug said ]
# [22:26] <Josh_Soref> darobin: I agree
# [22:26] <Josh_Soref> darobin: it should be transactionStart
# [22:26] * Quits: Marcos (Adium@63.145.238.4) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [22:26] <Josh_Soref> mjs: WebKit has usually not done the FunctionOnly bit
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# [22:26] <Josh_Soref> [ Good bikeshedding, we picked a non black color ]
# [22:27] <Josh_Soref> sicking: bug 14393
# [22:27] <Josh_Soref> ... i think i've already fixed it
# [22:27] <Josh_Soref> ... bug 14404
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# [22:27] <smaug> FunctionOnly is always a spec bug except with onfoo event listeners
# [22:28] <Josh_Soref> Israel: this related to not knowing which version you were working on during an abort and wanted to do an upgrade
# [22:28] <Josh_Soref> ... this related to an exception/event type not? having a version or something
# [22:28] <Josh_Soref> [ No one seems to really remember tihs ]
# [22:28] <Josh_Soref> Israel: inside upgradeneeded
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# [22:29] <Josh_Soref> ... with an optional parameter, how would you get the version?
# [22:29] <Josh_Soref> sicking: database.version in the upgradeneeded or the callback
# [22:29] <Josh_Soref> Israel: if you aborted it, and you're outside the upgradeneeded
# [22:29] <Josh_Soref> s/tihs/this/
# [22:30] <Josh_Soref> Israel: I think this predates an [optional] paremeteer
# [22:30] <Josh_Soref> s/parameteer/parameter/
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# [22:30] <Josh_Soref> sicking: if you fail to open
# [22:30] <Josh_Soref> ... which is where an upgradeneed happens
# [22:30] * Ms2ger I hear what you did there with the "mike"
# [22:30] <Josh_Soref> Israel: I think you can close the bug
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# [22:31] <Josh_Soref> ... i don't think we need it anymore
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# [22:31] <Josh_Soref> sicking: we need to specify something, because it's unclear in the spec
# [22:32] <Josh_Soref> ... bug 14405
# [22:32] <Josh_Soref> ... - i fixed that
# [22:32] <Josh_Soref> ... bug 14408
# [22:32] * Quits: dcooney (dominicc@216.239.45.130) (Ping timeout)
# [22:32] <Josh_Soref> ... - this is based on a usage pattern we saw
# [22:33] <Josh_Soref> ... as things stand now, if you open a cursor and in the callback and you do a bunch of things, and expect the cursor to progress
# [22:33] <Josh_Soref> ... having to call continue at the end is hard
# [22:33] <Josh_Soref> ... as soon as you call continue, getting .key/etc will trigger an exception
# [22:34] <Josh_Soref> ... we propose that once the cursor has recieved its first data, it won't throw
# [22:34] <Josh_Soref> Israel: so it's just caching data?
# [22:34] <Josh_Soref> sicking: this is because of request objects
# [22:34] <Josh_Soref> Israel: so this is different than calling continue twice?
# [22:34] <Josh_Soref> sicking: yes, that still throws
# [22:35] <Josh_Soref> michaeln: what happens when you call continue on the last cursor?
# [22:35] <Josh_Soref> sicking: either we make it start throwing, or we can leave the values as they were
# [22:35] <Josh_Soref> michaeln: this came up recently in code review
# [22:36] <Josh_Soref> ... and the response was "oh, i don't think tha'ts specified"
# [22:36] <Josh_Soref> sicking: in general, the spec tries to agressively throw
# [22:36] <Josh_Soref> michaeln: where you're changing the behavior of aggressive throwing
# [22:36] <Josh_Soref> ... it needs to be fleshed out
# [22:36] <Josh_Soref> sicking: i think i offered to fix this bug
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# [22:38] <Josh_Soref> i/start throwing/... there isn't a reference in the callback (it's null), but you can have another reference to it elsewhere/
# [22:38] <Josh_Soref> sicking: bug 14412
# [22:39] <Josh_Soref> ... no brainer, we should do that
# [22:39] <Josh_Soref> ... bug 14441
# [22:39] <Josh_Soref> ... - just outdated, should remove that note, editorial
# [22:39] <Josh_Soref> ... bug 14488
# [22:40] <Josh_Soref> ... - missing annotation
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# [22:40] <Josh_Soref> ... that's it!
# [22:40] <Josh_Soref> sicking: what do we return from delete operations?
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# [22:40] <Josh_Soref> Israel: I'm ok with not returning anything.
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# [22:40] <Josh_Soref> sicking: the spec says to return true if it deleted something or false if there's nothing to delete
# [22:40] <Josh_Soref> ... in some casw, that would be useful
# [22:40] <Josh_Soref> ... this is asynchronous
# [22:41] <Josh_Soref> s/casw/cases/
# [22:41] <Josh_Soref> sicking: this could be slower to implement
# [22:41] <Josh_Soref> ... and since we don't know if someone's going to use it, we already have to dig it out
# [22:41] <Josh_Soref> ... the speed cost is totally implementation specific
# [22:41] <Josh_Soref> sicking: my preference is to return nothing, to be safe
# [22:42] <Josh_Soref> ... you can always get the information, although it's probably slower - by calling count first
# [22:42] <Josh_Soref> Israel: we're ok not returning anything
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# [22:42] <Josh_Soref> ... as long as you end up in a success handler
# [22:42] <Josh_Soref> ... the issue was, what happens when you're deleting a range
# [22:43] <Josh_Soref> ... and you can't delete all of the range?
# [22:43] <Josh_Soref> ... and we agreed to throw two kinds of errors
# [22:43] <Josh_Soref> sicking: if you fail to delete everything, you always have to revert, since all actions are atomic
# [22:44] <Josh_Soref> Israel: one thing that would be great
# [22:44] <Josh_Soref> ... we started putting out there a test called LAteral
# [22:44] <Josh_Soref> ... we'd like to get feedback from all implementers to see how interoperable we are
# [22:44] <Josh_Soref> ... i believe the set of tests are for the old set version
# [22:44] <Josh_Soref> sicking: we already landed the change
# [22:44] <Josh_Soref> Israel: we'll try to revise the tests
# [22:45] <Josh_Soref> Israel: open-with-version is the new api to replace set-version
# [22:45] <Josh_Soref> [ That was answered for the Scribe ]
# [22:45] <Josh_Soref> sicking: unfortunately, all of our tests rely on the error event
# [22:45] <Josh_Soref> ... and they use generators
# [22:45] <Josh_Soref> ... JS Harmony generators
# [22:46] <Josh_Soref> Travis: you can always stick things into the submissions folder
# [22:46] <Josh_Soref> s/Travis/Travis_MSFT/
# [22:46] <Josh_Soref> sicking: we'll need to go through our tests and rewrite them to not use generators, which are convenient to our test writers, but not portable
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# [22:47] <Josh_Soref> adrianba: it'd be helpful if you submitted them so we could see coverage and avoid duplication
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# [22:47] <Josh_Soref> darobin: and someone might magically do the conversion for you
# [22:47] <Josh_Soref> ... i'm hearing whispers about LC
# [22:47] <Josh_Soref> sicking: we might be able to do LC this year
# [22:48] <Josh_Soref> ... we need to fix these bugs, but they're not much work
# [22:48] <Josh_Soref> Zakim, who is on the call?
# [22:48] <Zakim> On the phone I see tpac, ??P1
# [22:48] * Ms2ger Hi :)
# [22:48] * Josh_Soref smaug : ping/ call in?
# [22:49] <Josh_Soref> Topic: Mutations
# [22:49] <Eliot> present+ adrianba
# [22:49] <Eliot> present+ eliot
# [22:49] * Josh_Soref pokes smaug
# [22:50] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
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# [22:50] <Josh_Soref> Zakim, p1 is Ms2ger
# [22:50] <Zakim> sorry, Josh_Soref, I do not recognize a party named 'p1'
# [22:50] <smaug> Zakim, [IPcaller] is Olli_Pettay
# [22:50] <Zakim> +Olli_Pettay; got it
# [22:50] <Josh_Soref> Zakim, ?p1 is Ms2ger
# [22:50] <Zakim> sorry, Josh_Soref, I do not recognize a party named '?p1'
# [22:50] <Josh_Soref> RafielW: from Google
# [22:50] <Josh_Soref> Zakim, ??p1 is Ms2ger
# [22:50] <Zakim> +Ms2ger; got it
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# [22:51] <Josh_Soref> ... I'm curious to know if anyone from Apple/Microsoft has an opinion
# [22:51] <Josh_Soref> Travis_MSFT: Travis, Microsoft
# [22:51] <Josh_Soref> ... I'm reading it right now
# [22:51] <Josh_Soref> weinig: Sam, Apple
# [22:51] * Quits: adrianba (adrianba@63.145.238.4) (Ping timeout)
# [22:51] <Josh_Soref> ... in a similar vein, we've been working on other things, and it hasn't been a high enough priority
# [22:51] <Josh_Soref> ... it's been moving pretty quickly and doens't seem bad
# [22:51] <Josh_Soref> ... it's good if it ties in with undomanager
# [22:52] <Josh_Soref> s/doens't/doesn't/
# [22:52] <Josh_Soref> Travis_MSFT: this is MutationObserver?
# [22:52] <anne> wait is this about mutations already?
# [22:52] <Josh_Soref> RafielW: yes
# [22:52] * Josh_Soref anne: yes
# [22:52] * anne thought that was at 3
# [22:52] * Ms2ger anne, people are fast :)
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# [22:52] * anne is still jetlagged
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# [22:52] <Josh_Soref> [ Group apologizes to people not present ]
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# [22:53] <Josh_Soref> [ we break for 10 mins to let those 3pm people to arrive, please arrive promptly ]
# [22:53] <Ms2ger> [ Threats of hunting down people who are late ]
# [22:53] <Ms2ger> [ Robin, be warned ]
# [22:53] * Josh_Soref asks Ms2ger to clean up other typos
# [22:53] * Josh_Soref unts tea
# [22:53] * Josh_Soref hunts?
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# [22:54] <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [22:54] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/01-webapps-minutes.html Ms2ger
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# [23:05] * Ms2ger notes something about ten minutes
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# [23:05] * Josh_Soref notes we're about to resume
# [23:06] <Ms2ger> OH: I don't believe in the internet
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# [23:07] <Josh_Soref> Zakim, who is on the call?
# [23:07] <Zakim> On the phone I see tpac, Ms2ger, Olli_Pettay
# [23:07] <Josh_Soref> darobin: it's 3pm, we're starting
# [23:07] <Josh_Soref> Travis_MSFT: Would you like to tell us about MutationObservers
# [23:07] * Ms2ger Mutating Dom?
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# [23:07] <Josh_Soref> RafaelW: ok, so an overview
# [23:08] <Josh_Soref> ... the intent is to be a replacement for DOM Mutation Events
# [23:08] <Josh_Soref> ... the fundamental difference
# [23:08] <Josh_Soref> ... is mutation events try to project an abstraction
# [23:08] <Josh_Soref> ... that things are going to be dispatched synchronously
# [23:08] <Josh_Soref> ... that turned out to be problematic for a number of reasons
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# [23:08] <Josh_Soref> RafaelW: MutationObservers are different
# [23:09] <Josh_Soref> ... you can register an observer to express an interest in a certain set of mutations
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# [23:09] <Josh_Soref> ... and you'll get a list of things that have happened
# [23:09] <Josh_Soref> ... it's a batched list of things that have happened
# [23:09] <Josh_Soref> ... since the last time you were called
# [23:09] <Josh_Soref> ... the other interesting part is the timing of delivery of mutation records
# [23:09] <Josh_Soref> ... there was a pretty long discussion on Public-Web-Apps about this
# [23:10] <Josh_Soref> ... the people discussing this
# [23:10] <Ms2ger> s/Public-Web-Apps/Public-Webapps/
# [23:10] <Josh_Soref> ... arrived at what smaug coined as "the end of the microtask"
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# [23:10] <Josh_Soref> ... for the delivery of mutation events
# [23:10] <Josh_Soref> ... it means mutations are delivered at the end of the outermost script execution
# [23:10] <Josh_Soref> ... if outside such a thing, at the end of the current task
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# [23:11] <Josh_Soref> ... as part of the single Turn, before painting
# [23:11] <Josh_Soref> ... otherwise you see artifacts
# [23:11] <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [23:11] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/01-webapps-minutes.html Ms2ger
# [23:11] <Josh_Soref> weinig: can that be defined in terms of the event loop?
# [23:11] <Josh_Soref> anne: currently painting happens just after Task completion
# [23:12] <Josh_Soref> RafaelW: currently painting has a gaurantee (ignoring Modal dialogs)
# [23:12] <Josh_Soref> ... but you may get called before the end of a task
# [23:12] <Josh_Soref> ... if a synchronous event is handled
# [23:12] <Josh_Soref> ... say for mouse down
# [23:12] <Josh_Soref> ... and mutations happen as part of those handlers
# [23:12] <Josh_Soref> ... then you'll get something delivery then as part of that outermost
# [23:12] <Josh_Soref> ... invocation
# [23:13] <Josh_Soref> sicking: my understanding of when it's defined to fire
# [23:13] <Josh_Soref> ... for example the Load event for XHR
# [23:13] <Josh_Soref> ... it fires at the end of each event handler
# [23:13] <Josh_Soref> ... let's use a click event handler
# [23:13] <Josh_Soref> ... it fires at the end of each event handler on each event target
# [23:13] <Josh_Soref> ... it happens multiple times during the call to dispatchEvent()
# [23:14] <Josh_Soref> ... so if you click on an element 3 elements deep
# [23:14] <Josh_Soref> ... you call on 2 elements in capture
# [23:14] <Josh_Soref> ... on target
# [23:14] <Josh_Soref> ... 2 on bubble
# [23:14] * Josh_Soref might havbe botched tht liast one
# [23:14] <Josh_Soref> ... You get it twice for each thing, potentially, but only if there are mutations
# [23:14] <Josh_Soref> sicking: the reason for this
# [23:14] <Josh_Soref> ... smaug was concerned that if we do it at the end of a task
# [23:15] <Josh_Soref> ... if each event handler is independent
# [23:15] <Josh_Soref> ... and doesn't know what one might do
# [23:15] <Josh_Soref> ... invluding doing a sync XHR
# [23:15] <Josh_Soref> s/invluding/including/
# [23:15] <Josh_Soref> ... during one of those, we'd need to fire these there
# [23:15] * Ms2ger wonders about the background noise
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# [23:15] * Josh_Soref -- we did too
# [23:15] <Josh_Soref> ... there's a risk of an actor
# [23:16] <Josh_Soref> anne: what if an actor calls showModalDialog
# [23:16] <Josh_Soref> sicking: yes, but it means you can only shoot yourself in the foot
# [23:16] <Josh_Soref> anne: that's acceptable
# [23:16] <Josh_Soref> RafaelW: smaug are you there?
# [23:16] <Josh_Soref> ... can you explain more?
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# [23:16] <Josh_Soref> smaug: the idea was to encapsulate the mutation
# [23:17] <Josh_Soref> ... web pages cannot detect what is a task
# [23:17] <anne> ^^ "that's acceptable?"
# [23:17] <Josh_Soref> ... you may dispatch several events during a single task
# [23:17] * Josh_Soref anne s/// whatever you like, it's hard for me to understand
# [23:18] <Josh_Soref> ... it's always when a event handler returns or a timer returns
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# [23:18] <Josh_Soref> weinig: does that mean that every new api we define we'll have to define microtasks
# [23:18] <Josh_Soref> ... or do we infer it?
# [23:18] <Josh_Soref> ... specification-wise?
# [23:18] <Josh_Soref> sicking: specifcation-wise, it would probably be nice if they did
# [23:18] <Josh_Soref> ... but it should be pretty obvious
# [23:18] <Josh_Soref> ... any time you call into the web page
# [23:18] <Josh_Soref> ... that isn't inside another callback
# [23:19] <Josh_Soref> mjs: in that case, it might be nice
# [23:19] <Josh_Soref> ... if this concept was codified in some more explicit way
# [23:19] <Josh_Soref> ... we do have the concept of calling into script and having it call out
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# [23:19] <Josh_Soref> ... it seems we're in agreement in what it is
# [23:19] <Josh_Soref> sicking: when i spoke to Hixie , he said there was something like that in html5
# [23:19] <Josh_Soref> ... used to figure out security for call stacks
# [23:19] * Quits: nwidell (nwidell@63.145.238.4) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
# [23:20] <Josh_Soref> ... but yes, it needs to be codified
# [23:20] <Josh_Soref> [ Hixie is no longer behind sicking ]
# [23:20] <Josh_Soref> sicking: there's special handling around
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# [23:20] <Josh_Soref> ... MutationObserver callbacks themselves
# [23:20] <Josh_Soref> ... if you have 3 observers
# [23:20] <Josh_Soref> ... and you make a mutation to the DOM
# [23:20] <Josh_Soref> ... and #1 makes a mutation
# [23:21] <Josh_Soref> [ Sicking will write this in ]
# [23:21] <Josh_Soref> rafaelw: my mental model
# [23:21] <Josh_Soref> ... is the mutation observer maintains a pending queue to be delivered to its observer
# [23:22] <Josh_Soref> ... and when it's called to deliver, it delivers what it has to its observer
# [23:22] <Josh_Soref> ... and that observer can create work to be added to all observers' queues
# [23:22] <sicking> if you have three observers and a modification is made to the DOM, then we first call the first observer, then the second second observer. If the second observer mutates the DOM, we'll recall the first and the second one with just the second mutation, and then the third observer with both mutations
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# [23:22] <Josh_Soref> ... and the system loops around until it empties its queues
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# [23:23] <Josh_Soref> sicking: everyone will eventually be notified
# [23:23] <Josh_Soref> ... and there's no inner looping
# [23:23] <Josh_Soref> ... we'll append and create larger loops
# [23:23] <Josh_Soref> mjs: can you create an infinite loop with 2 listeners?
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# [23:24] <Josh_Soref> sicking: even a single listener can create an infinite loop
# [23:24] <dglazkov> s/mjs/weinig
# [23:24] <Josh_Soref> rafaelw: what would happen with current mutation events?
# [23:24] <Josh_Soref> ... you explode the stack
# [23:24] <Josh_Soref> ... that coding error
# [23:24] <Josh_Soref> ... here is just an infinite loop instead of exploding the stack
# [23:24] <Josh_Soref> ... we talked about a fixed limit on going around
# [23:25] <Josh_Soref> ... the advantage of exploding the stack
# [23:25] <Josh_Soref> ... is that you can see a stack trace to understand what went wrong
# [23:25] <Josh_Soref> ... hopefully developer tools will evolve to help you debug the infinite loop case here
# [23:25] <Josh_Soref> mjs: there would be a way to avoid starving the paint cycle
# [23:26] <Josh_Soref> [ Scribe summarized poorly ]
# [23:26] <Josh_Soref> mjs: it's possible to make a design
# [23:26] <Josh_Soref> ... where you don't have an arbitrary fixed limit
# [23:26] <Josh_Soref> ... but you don't starve the event loop if you have a programming mistake
# [23:26] <Josh_Soref> rafaelw: we talked about that
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# [23:26] <Josh_Soref> ... there are legitimate uses for going around the horn a couple of times
# [23:26] <Josh_Soref> ... and then let things settle down
# [23:27] <Josh_Soref> ... comes from the model driven use proposals
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# [23:27] <Josh_Soref> s/proposals/proposal/
# [23:27] <Josh_Soref> ... we were asked to slow down and look at the use cases
# [23:27] <Josh_Soref> rafaelw: imagine you were using a JS library to do templating
# [23:27] <Josh_Soref> ... and used something like jQuery to do a UI
# [23:27] * Quits: mixedpuppy (mixedpuppy@63.145.238.4) (Quit: mixedpuppy)
# [23:27] <Josh_Soref> ... and it wants to go decorate the page w/ more DOM
# [23:28] <Josh_Soref> ... and you used a constraint library to manage forms
# [23:28] <Josh_Soref> ... so the templating library might produce more jQuery stuff
# [23:28] <Josh_Soref> ... and the jQuery stuff might trigger more work for the templating
# [23:28] <Josh_Soref> mjs: that seems like a Use Case where it's easy to create something that never terminates
# [23:29] <Josh_Soref> ... i agree it enables you to do things you could not otherwise do
# [23:29] <Josh_Soref> ojan: Ojan, Google
# [23:29] <Josh_Soref> ojan: as long as we agree
# [23:29] <Josh_Soref> ... mutations during one of these callbacks should get delivered eventually
# [23:29] <Josh_Soref> ... this error will either result in a hang, or burning cpu indefinitely
# [23:29] <Josh_Soref> ... i'd rather the hang
# [23:29] <Josh_Soref> ... rather than burning cpu
# [23:30] <Josh_Soref> ... i'd rather a limit and an error
# [23:30] <Josh_Soref> rafaelw: i mostly agree
# [23:30] <Josh_Soref> ... i just don't want to create a situation where a developer doesn't know if he'll run before a paint occurs
# [23:30] <Josh_Soref> mjs: you have the situation where each piece of code has observers
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# [23:30] <Josh_Soref> ... you need to globally analyze to determine if it will finish
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# [23:30] <Josh_Soref> Travis_MSFT: they need to be interdepent
# [23:31] <Josh_Soref> ... you could get into an infinite loop
# [23:31] <Josh_Soref> ... if jQuery included things which the validation system depends on
# [23:31] <Josh_Soref> ... which depends on the third component
# [23:31] <Josh_Soref> ... but in most cases, i don't think that will happen
# [23:31] <Josh_Soref> ... you might have a queue of 3 or 4
# [23:31] <Josh_Soref> mjs: the loop was claimed as a UC
# [23:31] <Josh_Soref> Travis_MSFT: i agree, but disagree on a hard limit
# [23:32] <Josh_Soref> ... the distributed UC is potentially difficult
# [23:32] <Josh_Soref> ryosuke: we already have this problem with the current system
# [23:32] <Josh_Soref> ... i don't see this as introducing new issues
# [23:32] <Josh_Soref> mjs: given how bad mutationevents are
# [23:33] <Josh_Soref> ... i don't support "no worse than them" as justification
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# [23:33] <Josh_Soref> weinig: yes there are problems, yes this makes things better
# [23:33] <Josh_Soref> ... if we could avoid more problems, that's better
# [23:33] <Josh_Soref> darobin: the situation you've described is a corner i've painted myself into many times
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# [23:34] <Josh_Soref> weinig: in the end, those risks are going to be minimized by something XBL-ish
# [23:34] <Josh_Soref> ... or component modelish
# [23:34] <Josh_Soref> [ laughter ]
# [23:34] <Josh_Soref> mjs: there's really 3 basic things for this issue
# [23:34] <Josh_Soref> ... 1. repeatedly cycle until all queues are empty
# [23:34] * Quits: ojan (ojan@63.145.238.4) (Quit: ojan)
# [23:34] <Josh_Soref> ... 2. have a fixed limit
# [23:34] <Josh_Soref> ... 3. at some point, delay delivery to avoid starving the event loop
# [23:34] <Josh_Soref> ... this should be on the mailing list
# [23:35] <Josh_Soref> ACTION rafaelw to send how to handle single pass not emptying all mutation queues to the list
# [23:35] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [23:35] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - rafaelw
# [23:36] <Josh_Soref> [ anne asks a question ]
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# [23:36] <Josh_Soref> anne: call dispatchEvent() from code
# [23:36] <Josh_Soref> ... where does that get trigger the mutation observers?
# [23:37] <Josh_Soref> sicking: the outermost thing is always a callback
# [23:37] <Josh_Soref> ... which is a microtask
# [23:37] <Josh_Soref> ... if you call dispatchEvent() in there,
# [23:37] <Josh_Soref> ... the mutation observer calls back from the end of the outer microtask
# [23:37] <Josh_Soref> ... it's like a function call
# [23:37] <Josh_Soref> anne: tasks that are queued are special?
# [23:38] <Josh_Soref> ... yes, they are outermost, so they're special
# [23:38] <Josh_Soref> rafaelw: are you concerned, or not understanding?
# [23:38] <Josh_Soref> Travis_MSFT: i'd like the spec describe the scenarios clearly
# [23:38] <Josh_Soref> ... perhaps even so people can visually see
# [23:39] * Josh_Soref pokes smaug
# [23:39] <Josh_Soref> ojan: and if sicking could recall the thing Hixie said, that'd be good
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# [23:39] <Josh_Soref> smaug: i need to finish the implementation first
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# [23:39] <Josh_Soref> ... to decide if it's good
# [23:39] <Josh_Soref> darobin: does this go into DOM4?
# [23:39] <Josh_Soref> ... does anyone care?
# [23:40] <Ms2ger> I do
# [23:40] * smaug doesn't care
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# [23:40] <Ms2ger> As mentioned before
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# [23:40] <anne> you can edit it :)
# [23:41] <Josh_Soref> ryosuke: i've heard that they relate to DOM4 and should probably be there
# [23:41] * Josh_Soref Ms2ger speak up?
# [23:41] * Josh_Soref do you want it there?
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# [23:41] <Josh_Soref> anne: i do think it should be in there
# [23:42] <Josh_Soref> ... because every other spec that intergrates should work with it
# [23:42] <Josh_Soref> darobin: we seem to have violent agreement there
# [23:42] <Ms2ger> I'm in violent agreement with anne :)
# [23:42] <Josh_Soref> ... anything else to discuss?
# [23:42] <Josh_Soref> Travis_MSFT: do these observers include stylistic properties?
# [23:42] <Josh_Soref> sicking: most stylistic changes don't directly do this
# [23:43] <Josh_Soref> ... but many times you trigger a style change by setting an attribute or inserting something, which would itself be an observer notice
# [23:43] <Josh_Soref> rafaelw: there's an attribute filter
# [23:43] <Josh_Soref> darobin: perhaps there should be something specific for a specific class value
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# [23:43] <Josh_Soref> rafaelw: we agreed this is probably the 80% use case
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# [23:44] <Josh_Soref> ... there was an earlier proposal from microsoft called watched-selector
# [23:44] * Josh_Soref trackbot ?
# [23:44] * Josh_Soref Travis_MSFT ?
# [23:44] <Josh_Soref> weinig: i want to echo that point
# [23:44] <Josh_Soref> ... the extra class list on element was the favorite thing
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# [23:45] <Josh_Soref> ... special casing class might be valuable
# [23:45] <Josh_Soref> ojan: i really liked the watched-selector proposal
# [23:45] <Josh_Soref> ... it's more generic, over a selector instead of just a class list
# [23:46] <Josh_Soref> s/watched/watch/
# [23:46] <anne> watchSelector
# [23:46] <Josh_Soref> s/watched/watch/
# [23:46] <Josh_Soref> ... what i like about this is that you can implement watchSelector on top of this
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# [23:46] <Josh_Soref> rafaelw: it's on my list to open source a watchSelector reference impl on top of this
# [23:46] <Josh_Soref> darobin: anything else?
# [23:46] * Quits: jeff (Jeff@mcclure.w3.org) (Ping timeout)
# [23:46] <Josh_Soref> [ No ]
# [23:47] <Josh_Soref> [ Break until 4pm -- for server sent events ]
# [23:47] <Zakim> -Olli_Pettay
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# Session Close: Wed Nov 02 00:00:00 2011

The end :)