/irc-logs / w3c / #webapps / 2011-11-02 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Nov 02 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #webapps
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  14. # [00:07] <Josh_Soref> Topic: Server Sent Events: Push
  15. # [00:07] <Josh_Soref> [ darobin bryan will introduce, it's up on the screen ]
  16. # [00:07] <Josh_Soref> bryan: I sent to the list a link
  17. # [00:07] <Josh_Soref> ... 2 years ago
  18. # [00:07] <Josh_Soref> .... at TPAC here
  19. # [00:08] <Josh_Soref> bryan: We had a discussion at the HTML WG about connectionless push
  20. # [00:08] * Joins: krisk (IceChat77@63.145.238.4)
  21. # [00:08] <Josh_Soref> ... the text at the time was fairly generic
  22. # [00:08] <Josh_Soref> ... the ability to use connectionless methods
  23. # [00:08] <Josh_Soref> ... not having to maintain keepalive
  24. # [00:09] <Josh_Soref> ... the intent in that spec, still informative
  25. # [00:09] <Josh_Soref> ... a list of things that might occur in the process
  26. # [00:09] * Parts: krisk (IceChat77@63.145.238.4)
  27. # [00:09] <Josh_Soref> ... this spec
  28. # [00:09] * Joins: nwidell (nwidell@63.145.238.4)
  29. # [00:09] <Josh_Soref> bryan: I've been involved in OMA since 2000
  30. # [00:09] <Josh_Soref> ... involved in the push work in OMA since then
  31. # [00:09] * Joins: jihye (jihye0525.@63.145.238.4)
  32. # [00:09] <Josh_Soref> ... we recently completed work within OMA
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  35. # [00:10] <Josh_Soref> ... this api is enough to form the basis of an extension to event source
  36. # [00:10] * Joins: krisk (IceChat77@63.145.238.4)
  37. # [00:10] * cyril doesn't see the link to the proposed spec
  38. # [00:10] <Josh_Soref> ... it provides a way to use SMS
  39. # [00:10] <Josh_Soref> ... as an extension to http push
  40. # [00:10] * Josh_Soref doesn't either, sorry
  41. # [00:10] <Josh_Soref> ... events are passed up to the application, in this case, the OMA runtime
  42. # [00:11] * Joins: mjs (mjs@63.145.238.4)
  43. # [00:11] <Josh_Soref> ... when it's advantageous to save resources
  44. # [00:11] <Josh_Soref> ... it's possible to coalesce these into a unified message
  45. # [00:11] <Josh_Soref> ... event source didn't define these because they were out of scope to the spec
  46. # [00:12] <Josh_Soref> ... I have a diagram here showing how apps could be deployed
  47. # [00:12] * ernesto_jimenez cyril http://bkaj.net/w3c/eventsource-push.html
  48. # [00:12] <Josh_Soref> [ http://bkaj.net/w3c/eventsource-push.html ]
  49. # [00:12] * cyril thanks
  50. # [00:12] <Josh_Soref> [ bryan describes the diagram ]
  51. # [00:12] <Josh_Soref> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  52. # [00:12] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/01-webapps-minutes.html Josh_Soref
  53. # [00:13] * Quits: efidler (efidler@63.145.238.4) (Ping timeout)
  54. # [00:13] <Josh_Soref> [ The diagram is: http://bkaj.net/w3c/eventsource-push.html#introduction ]
  55. # [00:13] * Joins: Kai (chatzilla@63.145.238.4)
  56. # [00:13] <Josh_Soref> bryan: this doesn't modify the signature of Event Source
  57. # [00:14] <Josh_Soref> ... down the road, we might create a persistent registration
  58. # [00:14] <Josh_Soref> ... to let events wake up applications
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  61. # [00:14] <Josh_Soref> ... you have the desire to connect two new barers through uri
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  63. # [00:15] <Josh_Soref> ... you can use a registered urn that defines OMA Push
  64. # [00:15] <Josh_Soref> ... within the IMS framework
  65. # [00:15] * Joins: aklein_ (adamk@63.145.238.4)
  66. # [00:15] <Josh_Soref> bryan: events are delivered using the same model as Event Source
  67. # [00:16] <Josh_Soref> ... although the event type is sent to SMS for SMS
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  69. # [00:16] <Josh_Soref> ... and OMA Push for OMA Push
  70. # [00:16] <Josh_Soref> ... you don't get onMessage() since these are not message events
  71. # [00:16] <Josh_Soref> ... with OMA Push
  72. # [00:16] * Quits: Marcos (Adium@63.145.238.4) (Quit: Leaving.)
  73. # [00:16] <Josh_Soref> ... the simplest way was to create a sequence of strings
  74. # [00:17] <Josh_Soref> ... so the application can receive all of the data as a single event using the event stream concept
  75. # [00:17] <Josh_Soref> ... in this case, i pulled out the xml document, the url, and the text message, and present it
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  80. # [00:17] <Josh_Soref> ... for sms, the sms text message gets put into the event and delivered
  81. # [00:17] <Josh_Soref> [ http://bkaj.net/w3c/eventsource-push.html#fallback ]
  82. # [00:18] <Josh_Soref> [ bryan describes second diagram ]
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  86. # [00:20] <Josh_Soref> [ http://bkaj.net/w3c/eventsource-push.html#proxy-fallback ]
  87. # [00:20] <Josh_Soref> [ bryan describes third diagram ]
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  93. # [00:23] <Josh_Soref> [ http://bkaj.net/w3c/eventsource-push.html#constructor ]
  94. # [00:25] * anne WebIDL is at 5PM?
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  96. # [00:25] <Josh_Soref> [ http://bkaj.net/w3c/eventsource-push.html#event-processing ]
  97. # [00:25] * Josh_Soref looks
  98. # [00:25] <Josh_Soref> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  99. # [00:25] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/01-webapps-minutes.html Josh_Soref
  100. # [00:26] * Josh_Soref 4:30 according to http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/TPAC2011#Agenda_Tuesday.2C_November_1
  101. # [00:26] <Josh_Soref> [ http://bkaj.net/w3c/eventsource-push.html#event-stream ]
  102. # [00:26] * Josh_Soref hunts darobin
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  105. # [00:27] * Josh_Soref darobin says nominally 4:30, but probably 4:40pm
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  107. # [00:28] <Josh_Soref> [ http://bkaj.net/w3c/eventsource-push.html#security-considerations ]
  108. # [00:28] <Josh_Soref> [ http://bkaj.net/w3c/eventsource-push.html#same-origin ]
  109. # [00:28] <Josh_Soref> [ bryan mentions Widget contexts but glosses over it ]
  110. # [00:29] <Josh_Soref> bryan: developers need to consider filtering for security considerations
  111. # [00:29] <Josh_Soref> ... just as in web messaging
  112. # [00:29] * smaug won't be here for webidl but would like to know whether and when Opera, Apple and Google will implement it. (especially onfoo property handling)
  113. # [00:29] <Josh_Soref> ... accepting "*" is the responsibility of the application choosing to do so
  114. # [00:29] <Josh_Soref> [ http://bkaj.net/w3c/eventsource-push.html#application-security ]
  115. # [00:30] <Josh_Soref> [ http://bkaj.net/w3c/eventsource-push.html#privacy-considerations ]
  116. # [00:30] <Josh_Soref> jcantera: Jose Cantera, Telefonica
  117. # [00:30] <Josh_Soref> ... how do you intend to progress this?
  118. # [00:30] <Josh_Soref> darobin: charter wise, it's in scope to this group
  119. # [00:30] <Josh_Soref> ... if this group is happy to do it
  120. # [00:30] <Josh_Soref> darobin: do you think it would make sense
  121. # [00:31] <Josh_Soref> ... one good thing is that it lets web apps have the same notifications as native apps
  122. # [00:31] <Josh_Soref> ... and it shields web apps from complexity
  123. # [00:31] <Josh_Soref> ... would it make sense to hide the distinction between OMA Push and SMS?
  124. # [00:31] <Josh_Soref> bryan: i considered it
  125. # [00:31] <Josh_Soref> ... but, how do you deal with different framing formats?
  126. # [00:31] * Quits: morrita (Adium@63.145.238.4) (Quit: Leaving.)
  127. # [00:32] <Josh_Soref> ... in OMA Push, you can deliver any content type
  128. # [00:32] <Josh_Soref> ... the headers are important, you need to know the mime type
  129. # [00:32] <Josh_Soref> ... those elements are important
  130. # [00:32] <Josh_Soref> ... for a server to provide to the app
  131. # [00:32] <Josh_Soref> ... i couldn't figure out how to combine that
  132. # [00:33] <Josh_Soref> weinig: what mobile OSs support this?
  133. # [00:33] <Josh_Soref> bryan: I prototyped this in Android
  134. # [00:33] <Josh_Soref> ... I believe almost any OS in a smartphone class
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  136. # [00:33] <Josh_Soref> ... allows a developer to attach to network sources
  137. # [00:33] <Josh_Soref> ... and allow someone to act as an agent for this
  138. # [00:34] <Josh_Soref> ... in mid tier devices, that tends to be more complicated
  139. # [00:34] <Josh_Soref> lgombos: Laszlo Gombos, Nokia
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  141. # [00:34] <Josh_Soref> [ Lost, sorry ]
  142. # [00:34] <Josh_Soref> sicking: we talked about this at Mozilla
  143. # [00:35] <Josh_Soref> ... but we created something very different from this
  144. # [00:35] <Josh_Soref> ... there are two unfortunate things here
  145. # [00:35] <Josh_Soref> ... 1. I'd like to hide whether messages are from TCP/IP or SMS or OMA Push
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  147. # [00:35] <Josh_Soref> ... (I don't know anything about OMA Push)
  148. # [00:35] <Josh_Soref> ... - it feels like the goal was to expose OMA Push
  149. # [00:36] <heycam> anne, no it's at 4:30
  150. # [00:36] <Josh_Soref> ... The goal at Mozilla was ... How do we expose SMS over a channel that isn't TCP/IP?
  151. # [00:36] <Josh_Soref> s/anne, no it's at 4:30//
  152. # [00:36] * heycam sorry josh :)
  153. # [00:36] <Josh_Soref> ... the other part is requiring permission from the user
  154. # [00:36] <Josh_Soref> ... that severely limits how many users allow that
  155. # [00:36] <Josh_Soref> ... if it's a little bit sensitive, people are still rightfully worried
  156. # [00:37] <Josh_Soref> ... people press no, which is better than just pressing no
  157. # [00:37] <Josh_Soref> ... we were hoping to provide something simpler/safer
  158. # [00:37] <Josh_Soref> bryan: there could be prearranged trust relationships
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  160. # [00:37] <Josh_Soref> ... but it would be better for the user to have already trusted the app and not overburden them with prompts
  161. # [00:37] <Josh_Soref> darobin: what sicking was getting at
  162. # [00:38] <Josh_Soref> ... is providing an *always* safe subset
  163. # [00:38] <Josh_Soref> ... to avoid getting permission
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  166. # [00:38] <Josh_Soref> ... this is more powerful, and "easier in terms of security"
  167. # [00:38] <Josh_Soref> bryan: "how do you make this transparent?"
  168. # [00:38] <Josh_Soref> ... look at XHR, the agent says "i want / i'll take these mime types"
  169. # [00:39] <Josh_Soref> ... if we could take event source and say "i can accept these mime types"
  170. # [00:39] <Josh_Soref> ... that would let me decide if it was safe to deliver it
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  172. # [00:39] <Josh_Soref> ... because i didn't want to change event source, i couldn't do that
  173. # [00:39] <Josh_Soref> darobin: i think that's an option on the table
  174. # [00:39] <Josh_Soref> ... i'm hearing interest in doing something around this
  175. # [00:40] <Josh_Soref> ... would anyone object to the group working on this?
  176. # [00:40] <Josh_Soref> ... it's in charter already
  177. # [00:40] <Josh_Soref> [ Chatter ]
  178. # [00:40] <Josh_Soref> sicking: this feels different enough from what we talked about at mozilla
  179. # [00:40] <Josh_Soref> ... it feels like a different deliverable
  180. # [00:40] <Josh_Soref> ... if we can solve it by just adding a header
  181. # [00:40] <Josh_Soref> ... great
  182. # [00:41] <Josh_Soref> shepazu: would you be comfortable having a line in the charter scoping it more tightly?
  183. # [00:41] <Josh_Soref> ... why don't we three right a deliverable line for the charter?
  184. # [00:41] <Josh_Soref> darobin: to avoid waiting for rechartering
  185. # [00:42] <Josh_Soref> ... we should agree on a scope
  186. # [00:42] <Josh_Soref> ... bryan it'd be good if you could send use cases
  187. # [00:42] <Josh_Soref> ... sicking, it'd be good if you could send something
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  190. # [00:42] <Josh_Soref> mjs: weinig asked earlier if this is implementable onn iOS
  191. # [00:43] <Josh_Soref> ... i believe as presented, the answer is no
  192. # [00:43] <Josh_Soref> ... iOS doesn't give applications the ability to receive SMS
  193. # [00:43] <Josh_Soref> ... to me, that says that a design that does not force the web page to choose a transport would be better
  194. # [00:44] <Josh_Soref> bryan: i've said "any available barer would be good"
  195. # [00:44] * heycam anne beginning now
  196. # [00:44] <Josh_Soref> darobin: ok, based on the email you all send, we'll scope the work
  197. # [00:44] <Josh_Soref> Topic: WebIDL
  198. # [00:44] <Josh_Soref> heycam: helo
  199. # [00:44] <Josh_Soref> s/helo/hello/
  200. # [00:44] <Josh_Soref> ... In this session, I want to let people bring up issues
  201. # [00:45] <Josh_Soref> ... and discuss how we might go about testing
  202. # [00:45] <Josh_Soref> ... and third, what are the time frames for implementers (smaug asked this)
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  205. # [00:45] <Josh_Soref> AdamBarth: Adam Barth, Google
  206. # [00:45] <Josh_Soref> ... do you mean consume the syntax?
  207. # [00:45] <dom> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-script-coord/2011AprJun/0093.html Thread on testing Web IDL
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  210. # [00:46] <Josh_Soref> heycam: I don't mean specifically that, perhaps just conforming to its behavior
  211. # [00:46] * anne ... ok I'm coming
  212. # [00:46] <Josh_Soref> weinig: one thing we talked about in terms of testing WebIDL
  213. # [00:46] * anne thanks
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  215. # [00:46] <Josh_Soref> ... is to test it in terms of specs that are speced in WebIDL
  216. # [00:46] <Josh_Soref> ... for instance Canvas
  217. # [00:46] * Quits: Marcos (Adium@63.145.238.4) (Quit: Leaving.)
  218. # [00:46] <Josh_Soref> ... uses ovberloading
  219. # [00:46] <Josh_Soref> ... s/ovberloading/overloading/
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  221. # [00:47] <Josh_Soref> ... and things like prototype chains
  222. # [00:47] <Josh_Soref> ... testing people's implementations of generating code, i don't think it's worthwhile
  223. # [00:47] <Josh_Soref> ... you could hand write all the bindings, and still be compliant
  224. # [00:47] <Josh_Soref> heycam: i agree, that's the only reasonable approach
  225. # [00:47] <Josh_Soref> ... i think someone could come up with a set of properties for testing
  226. # [00:48] * Joins: magnus (chatzilla@63.145.238.4)
  227. # [00:48] <Josh_Soref> mjs: the way WebIDL is written, it's targeted at spec writers, not browser vendors
  228. # [00:48] <Josh_Soref> ... it creates an indirect relationship
  229. # [00:48] <Josh_Soref> ... indirect testing through testing of other specs seems the only way of testing it
  230. # [00:48] <Josh_Soref> ... which unfortunately creates a circular dependeny for progressing on the REC track
  231. # [00:49] * Quits: mjs (mjs@63.145.238.4) (Quit: mjs)
  232. # [00:49] <Josh_Soref> s/dependeny/dependency/
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  234. # [00:49] <dom> [I don't think see why this would be circular? surely we *can* create tests for specs that aren't in CR yet]
  235. # [00:49] <Josh_Soref> weinig: we always do that when we test XHR, we test JS
  236. # [00:49] <Josh_Soref> mjs: yes, we do
  237. # [00:49] <dom> s/think/see/
  238. # [00:49] <Josh_Soref> jrossi2: in particularly
  239. # [00:50] <Josh_Soref> ... when you test foo-spec, you test webidl
  240. # [00:50] <Josh_Soref> Travis_MSFT: I agree
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  243. # [00:50] <Josh_Soref> ... and as we march to LC, we need to mark things as AtRisk
  244. # [00:50] <Josh_Soref> darobin: we should just kill it
  245. # [00:50] <Josh_Soref> heycam: and the only one is modules
  246. # [00:50] <Josh_Soref> weinig: does that include namespace objects?
  247. # [00:50] <Josh_Soref> hheyyes
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  250. # [00:51] <Josh_Soref> s/hheyyes/heycam: yes/
  251. # [00:51] <Josh_Soref> AdamBarth: you can look at the specs as testing it
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  253. # [00:51] <Josh_Soref> heycam: yes, but it's harder to test automatically
  254. # [00:51] <Josh_Soref> darobin: things written with ReSpec are pretty easy
  255. # [00:51] <Josh_Soref> AlexR: Alex from Google
  256. # [00:52] <Josh_Soref> ... i'm not sure if this is the right forum for this
  257. # [00:52] <Josh_Soref> ... i think the entire java language indings should be dropped
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  259. # [00:52] <Josh_Soref> s/indings/bindings/
  260. # [00:52] <Josh_Soref> ... second is there are several instances where webidl doesn't serve JS well
  261. # [00:52] <Josh_Soref> ... 1. a TC-39 meeting
  262. # [00:52] <Josh_Soref> ... several months ago
  263. # [00:52] <Josh_Soref> ... interface objects which are reified
  264. # [00:53] <Josh_Soref> ... do not act like function objects
  265. # [00:53] <gsnedders> One option for WebIDL testing is some sort of tests designed to be run in a browser-specific way against the interface generation
  266. # [00:53] <Josh_Soref> ... do not behave normally, they aren't callable
  267. # [00:53] <Josh_Soref> [ scribe lost thoughts ]
  268. # [00:53] <Josh_Soref> heycam: I agree with this
  269. # [00:53] <Josh_Soref> ... it's unlikely authors will be doing 'throw typeerror'
  270. # [00:53] <Josh_Soref> ... things which are unnewable
  271. # [00:54] <Josh_Soref> ... things where it doesn't make sense to be able to new them
  272. # [00:54] <anne> new Math()
  273. # [00:54] <Josh_Soref> AlexR: i take the concern
  274. # [00:54] <Josh_Soref> ... it's a risk
  275. # [00:54] <Josh_Soref> ... the idiomatic way of doing that in js
  276. # [00:54] <Josh_Soref> ... is mixins
  277. # [00:54] <anne> (gives a TypeError)
  278. # [00:54] <Josh_Soref> ... the artifact way of doing that would be still newable
  279. # [00:55] <Josh_Soref> ... the reality is that today, webidl doesn't specify something "reasonable" that could be impleemtned yourself in JS
  280. # [00:55] <Josh_Soref> weinig: that's not necessarily the goal of WebIDL
  281. # [00:55] <MikeSmith> q?
  282. # [00:55] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  283. # [00:55] <Josh_Soref> ... the goal of WebIDL is to define how things are implemented today
  284. # [00:55] <Josh_Soref> ... and how they should be impleemnted
  285. # [00:55] * Quits: myakura (myakura@209.119.68.98) (Connection reset by peer)
  286. # [00:55] <Josh_Soref> AlexR: thenI suggest webidl is mischartered
  287. # [00:56] * Joins: myakura (myakura@209.119.68.98)
  288. # [00:56] <Josh_Soref> sicking: javascript doesn't have a way to subclass things other than Object
  289. # [00:56] * Quits: howard (howard_wan@63.145.238.4) (Connection reset by peer)
  290. # [00:56] <Josh_Soref> ... fortunately, almost everything is Objects
  291. # [00:56] * Quits: darin (darin@98.207.16.168) (Ping timeout)
  292. # [00:56] <Josh_Soref> ... I know you suggested something using Object.call
  293. # [00:57] <Josh_Soref> ... but I didn't hear any inmplemetners interested in doing that
  294. # [00:57] <Josh_Soref> ... and it seemed like something for TC-39 to do
  295. # [00:57] <Josh_Soref> AlexR: i should put on my TC-39 hat
  296. # [00:57] <Josh_Soref> ... and note that this discussion was something that happened @ TC-39
  297. # [00:58] <Josh_Soref> ... and brendan and I agree that everything you can do to an interface, should be newable
  298. # [00:58] <Josh_Soref> ... and yes, Arrays are odd
  299. # [00:58] * Quits: gopal (graghava@63.145.238.4) (Ping timeout)
  300. # [00:58] <Josh_Soref> ... and you sdhould throw things back at uws
  301. # [00:58] <Josh_Soref> ... and there are things in ES6, proxies
  302. # [00:58] <Josh_Soref> ... which should address it
  303. # [00:58] * Quits: MOIBA (zeroirc2.9@63.145.238.4) (Ping timeout)
  304. # [00:58] <Josh_Soref> sicking: what acts as normal JS is a matter of definition
  305. # [00:58] <Josh_Soref> ... for example, the array class, and even the string classs
  306. # [00:59] <Josh_Soref> ... has built in behavior and doesn't allow you to subclass
  307. # [00:59] <Josh_Soref> ... and we're following those models
  308. # [00:59] <Josh_Soref> AlexR: you're still failing
  309. # [00:59] <Josh_Soref> ... since your objects claim to chain to Objects
  310. # [00:59] <Josh_Soref> sicking: but Array claims to chain to Object
  311. # [00:59] <Josh_Soref> AlexR: but everything that WebIDL defines has intrinsic behavior
  312. # [01:00] <Josh_Soref> sicking: but that's how it works
  313. # [01:00] <Josh_Soref> sicking: the fact is that TC-39 hasn't solved this problem for any of these things
  314. # [01:00] <Josh_Soref> sicking: it's actually more, bz had examples
  315. # [01:00] <Josh_Soref> AlexR: Math is an Object, not a Function
  316. # [01:01] <Josh_Soref> heycam: In the Spec, they are all Function objects, they are defined such that when called they throw type error
  317. # [01:01] <Josh_Soref> ... which you can do in JS
  318. # [01:01] <Josh_Soref> AlexR: do we still have a separate constructor property in WebIDL?
  319. # [01:01] <Josh_Soref> ... throwing by default is a bug
  320. # [01:01] <Josh_Soref> sicking: moving beyond low level semantics
  321. # [01:02] <Josh_Soref> ... heycam wrote an example, "new Node" doesn't make sense
  322. # [01:02] * Quits: chrisdavidmills (cmills@63.145.238.4) (Quit: chrisdavidmills)
  323. # [01:02] <Josh_Soref> mjs: every DOM object that's an object is a specific Subclass of Node
  324. # [01:02] <Josh_Soref> AlexR: but that invariant is controlled by AppendNode
  325. # [01:02] <heycam> The spec says "Interface objects are always function objects."
  326. # [01:03] <Josh_Soref> sicking: but if it's several weeks of work in order to do something which no one can do anything useful with, then it's a waste of time
  327. # [01:03] <Josh_Soref> weinig: what's the argument for making node
  328. # [01:03] <Josh_Soref> sicking: all the intrinsic behavior of Nodes is based on which Node subclass it is
  329. # [01:03] <Josh_Soref> AlexR: then calling it and newing it throws
  330. # [01:03] * Joins: sangwhan (sangwhan@63.145.238.4)
  331. # [01:03] <Josh_Soref> heycam: is it worth it to handing back a non useful thing?
  332. # [01:04] * Joins: mixedpuppy (mixedpuppy@63.145.238.4)
  333. # [01:04] <Josh_Soref> Travis_MSFT: the answer is no
  334. # [01:04] * Quits: smaug (chatzilla@85.76.19.128) (Ping timeout)
  335. # [01:04] <Josh_Soref> AlexR: i'm not saying that you should turn off the ability to new/call
  336. # [01:04] <Josh_Soref> ... i'm asking you to turn off the default
  337. # [01:04] <Josh_Soref> anne: then you'd require a lot of specs to change most of the specs
  338. # [01:05] <Josh_Soref> AlexR: i'd argue that for html element types, it's mostly a bug
  339. # [01:05] <Josh_Soref> jrossi2: no, there's more than one interface per element
  340. # [01:05] <Josh_Soref> anne: because the tags all share an interface
  341. # [01:05] <Josh_Soref> AlexR: so you can't create a tag name
  342. # [01:05] * Joins: smaug (chatzilla@193.199.135.51)
  343. # [01:05] <Josh_Soref> ... you haven't thought about it hard enough
  344. # [01:06] <Josh_Soref> anne: we have thought about constructors a lot, especially because you brought it up
  345. # [01:06] <Josh_Soref> mjs: there are two separate issues
  346. # [01:06] <Josh_Soref> ... one is New
  347. # [01:06] <anne> wrong or not, without use cases this is not going to fly
  348. # [01:06] <Josh_Soref> ... and the other is subclassabilitiy
  349. # [01:06] <Josh_Soref> ... in js, only Object supports Subclassing
  350. # [01:06] * Quits: skim (Adium@63.145.238.4) (Quit: Leaving.)
  351. # [01:06] * Quits: magnus (chatzilla@63.145.238.4) (Ping timeout)
  352. # [01:06] <Josh_Soref> [ mjs and AlexR argue ]
  353. # [01:07] <Josh_Soref> mjs: you should fix JS first before we change
  354. # [01:07] <Josh_Soref> AlexR: we have misfeatures in DOM based on document.createElement
  355. # [01:07] * Joins: magnus (chatzilla@63.145.238.4)
  356. # [01:07] * Quits: davidb (davidb@66.207.208.98) (Quit: davidb)
  357. # [01:07] <Josh_Soref> mjs: the goal of WebIDL is to describe the actual semantics of DOM bindings and to get browsers consistent
  358. # [01:08] <Josh_Soref> ... it is not the goal of WebIDL to transform the philosophy of how DOM bindings are built
  359. # [01:09] <Josh_Soref> AlexR: the issue of default, shouldn't be the way of forcing the default
  360. # [01:09] <Josh_Soref> ... because as anne says, people will just put no constructor everywhere
  361. # [01:09] <Josh_Soref> s/AlexR/heycam/
  362. # [01:09] <Josh_Soref> anne: that's makework
  363. # [01:09] * Quits: jihye (jihye0525.@63.145.238.4) (Ping timeout)
  364. # [01:09] <Josh_Soref> AlexR: creating an instance ..
  365. # [01:09] * Joins: MOIBA (zeroirc2.9@63.145.238.4)
  366. # [01:10] <Josh_Soref> ... in the same idiom as anything else i can in that system
  367. # [01:10] <Josh_Soref> weinig: that's something whicih as mjs said
  368. # [01:10] <Josh_Soref> s/whicih/which/
  369. # [01:10] <Josh_Soref> AlexR: will there be a WebIDL version which changes this?
  370. # [01:11] <Josh_Soref> darobin: no
  371. # [01:11] <Josh_Soref> [ We are at an impass ]
  372. # [01:11] <Josh_Soref> [ Should we drop Java? ]
  373. # [01:11] <Josh_Soref> heycam: oh, i didn't respond to that
  374. # [01:11] <Josh_Soref> ... maybe
  375. # [01:11] * Quits: ChrisWilson (ChrisWilso@216.239.45.4) (Quit: Leaving.)
  376. # [01:11] <Josh_Soref> ... if we particularly don't care about other bindings
  377. # [01:12] <Josh_Soref> ... and i'm sure AlexR would argue we shouldn't
  378. # [01:12] <gsnedders> I keep on grimacing everytime subclassing is mentioned… because JS doesn't scarcely has classes. :\
  379. # [01:12] <Josh_Soref> ... should we actually alter WebIDL to reflect something closer to JS
  380. # [01:12] <Josh_Soref> ... that is something to consider, but it would take some time to do
  381. # [01:12] <Josh_Soref> Marcos: have you done the bindings for WebIDL in java?
  382. # [01:12] * Joins: morrita (Adium@63.145.238.4)
  383. # [01:12] <Josh_Soref> heycam: one project I'm involved in has a Java based DOM
  384. # [01:13] <Josh_Soref> shepazu: i wanted to talk about process very briefly
  385. # [01:13] * Joins: darin (darin@98.207.16.168)
  386. # [01:13] <gsnedders> Does it look as if anyone will have met CR exist criteria for the Java bindings by the time they have been met for the JS bindings? IMO that's the relevant matter.
  387. # [01:13] <Josh_Soref> ... dropping Java would mean we don't need 2 java implementations to get to REC
  388. # [01:14] <gsnedders> The Java bindings are fine provided they don't hold up the spec.
  389. # [01:14] <gsnedders> (They can always be split out into a separate spec)
  390. # [01:14] <Josh_Soref> mjs: getting two interoperable implementations of java bindings to test all of the features of webidl
  391. # [01:14] * Quits: sicking (chatzilla@63.145.238.4) (Ping timeout)
  392. # [01:14] <Josh_Soref> ... would keep the spec from REC forever
  393. # [01:14] * Quits: richt (richt@63.145.238.4) (Client exited)
  394. # [01:14] <Josh_Soref> shepazu: the Staff view on process
  395. # [01:15] * Joins: jcdufourd (jcdufourd@63.145.238.4)
  396. # [01:15] * Quits: ernesto_jimenez (ernesto_ji@63.145.238.4) (Quit: ernesto_jimenez)
  397. # [01:15] <Josh_Soref> ... is that if for each feature we have 2 specs in CR
  398. # [01:15] <Josh_Soref> heycam: the plan is to only have 1 spec consuming some of these items
  399. # [01:16] <Josh_Soref> shepazu: we can be fine about that
  400. # [01:16] <Josh_Soref> ... don't let the process for a normal spec drag us down
  401. # [01:16] <Josh_Soref> ... we can come to an agreement on the exit criteria
  402. # [01:16] <Josh_Soref> ... we're flexible on how we judge the passs criteria
  403. # [01:16] <gsnedders> Can someone ask what the staff view is on impls of the bindings?
  404. # [01:17] <Josh_Soref> mjs: i think we need actual implementations of specs using this feature
  405. # [01:17] <Josh_Soref> ... part of what we're evaluating is to ensure that all of the details of what it says happen are actually practical/possible
  406. # [01:17] <dom> (I think Java bindings should be split into a different document)
  407. # [01:17] <Josh_Soref> weinig: i had a bunch of questions
  408. # [01:18] <Josh_Soref> ... 1. should long long stay in the spec? given its wierd behavior in javaascript
  409. # [01:18] <Josh_Soref> ... given the inability of js beingable to represent numbers consistently
  410. # [01:18] <Josh_Soref> heycam: the issue being numbers in js over 2^53 get squished into a double
  411. # [01:18] <Josh_Soref> ... we talked about creating a class
  412. # [01:18] * Quits: pererik (pe@63.145.238.4) (Quit: .)
  413. # [01:18] * Quits: smaug (chatzilla@193.199.135.51) (Ping timeout)
  414. # [01:18] <Josh_Soref> anne: it's used in progress events
  415. # [01:19] * Joins: ernesto_jimenez (ernestojim@63.145.238.4)
  416. # [01:19] <Josh_Soref> mjs: the loss of precision happens in a javascript parser
  417. # [01:19] <Josh_Soref> ... it's more of an issue if we lose that detail in a movie
  418. # [01:19] <Josh_Soref> ... the progress events of loading a movie from xhr
  419. # [01:19] <Josh_Soref> ... i'm more curious about your opinion
  420. # [01:19] <gsnedders> bigints should be readded to WebIDL after they're in ES
  421. # [01:20] <anne> Josh_Soref: I worry about data loss with this
  422. # [01:20] * sangwhan s/wierd/weird/
  423. # [01:20] * Joins: mjs (mjs@63.145.238.4)
  424. # [01:20] <anne> Josh_Soref: nobody else worries about it :(
  425. # [01:20] <gsnedders> (i.e., they should be removed in the short-term)
  426. # [01:20] <anne> (roughly what Josh_Soref said)
  427. # [01:20] * sangwhan s/javaascript/javascript/
  428. # [01:20] <Josh_Soref> mjs: 2. should we treat an undefined value for a key in a dictionary the same as non existing
  429. # [01:20] * sangwhan leaving it to the scribe to patch up
  430. # [01:21] <Josh_Soref> ... that would be fine with apple, especially if mozilla is ok
  431. # [01:21] <Josh_Soref> ... what we do currently is inconsistent for our dictionaries
  432. # [01:21] <Josh_Soref> ... etierh way sounds fine, it's usually a programmer error
  433. # [01:21] <Josh_Soref> heycam: sicbrought up cases like that where you deliberately get something as undefined
  434. # [01:21] <Josh_Soref> mjs: so that sounds like a use case
  435. # [01:21] * mjs Josh_Soref, I think you are minuting weinig as me
  436. # [01:22] <Josh_Soref> heycam: sicking said it's consistent with missing arguments to a function
  437. # [01:22] <mjs> s/mjs/weinig/
  438. # [01:22] <Josh_Soref> s/sicbrought/sicking brought/
  439. # [01:22] * Josh_Soref oops
  440. # [01:22] <Josh_Soref> heycam: we're making the argument that people compare to argument instead of checking
  441. # [01:22] <gsnedders> I think someone needs to look through ES and see where [[HasOwnProperty]] is used and where undefined is used
  442. # [01:22] <Josh_Soref> [ see brendan's argument on list? ]
  443. # [01:23] <Josh_Soref> weinig: the other one discussed this week is remove FunctionOnly for callback
  444. # [01:23] * Joins: davidb (davidb@66.207.208.98)
  445. # [01:23] <Josh_Soref> ... implementers have been inconsistent wrt how they use that
  446. # [01:23] * Quits: ryoichi (ryoichi@63.145.238.4) (Ping timeout)
  447. # [01:23] <Josh_Soref> heycam: this might be a case where using interfaces resulted in
  448. # [01:23] <Josh_Soref> ... creating an object with the property called handleEvent
  449. # [01:23] <Josh_Soref> weinig: i was actually saying allow both in all circumstances
  450. # [01:24] <Josh_Soref> ... it's not like we can make addEventListener handle this
  451. # [01:24] <Josh_Soref> heycam: i did it as the default
  452. # [01:24] * Quits: rossen (Rossen@63.145.238.4) (Ping timeout)
  453. # [01:24] <Josh_Soref> jrossi2: i found the legacy handleEvent all wierd
  454. # [01:24] * Joins: JeffH (quassel@63.145.238.4)
  455. # [01:24] <Josh_Soref> ... and developers would like to support it everywhere
  456. # [01:24] <Josh_Soref> weinig: in webkit, we allow both
  457. # [01:25] <Josh_Soref> anne: it is defined as Callback FunctionOnly InterfaceObject
  458. # [01:25] <Josh_Soref> ... i think it's removed everywere except onFoo
  459. # [01:25] * Josh_Soref anne ?
  460. # [01:25] <Josh_Soref> weinig: WebKit allows it everywhere, so
  461. # [01:26] <Josh_Soref> Travis_MSFT: I'd like to point out that in my years, i never heard of that
  462. # [01:26] <Josh_Soref> ... i'd rather default to FunctionOnly
  463. # [01:26] <Josh_Soref> AlexR: my preference would be that if Object style is supported
  464. # [01:26] * Quits: davidb (davidb@66.207.208.98) (Quit: davidb)
  465. # [01:26] * Joins: shan (soonbo.han@63.145.238.4)
  466. # [01:26] <Josh_Soref> ... is that we attempt to allow same name as event name in addition to handle event
  467. # [01:26] <Josh_Soref> ... so that you can have different colors
  468. # [01:26] * Quits: hayato (hayato@63.145.238.4) (Quit: hayato)
  469. # [01:27] <Josh_Soref> ... handleEvent is the thing that doesn't do nicely for all event handlers
  470. # [01:27] <Josh_Soref> heycam: if that's the direction we want to go, then we need to support Object style
  471. # [01:27] <Josh_Soref> heycam: so you want to remove FuinctionOnly from the spec so you can only do both
  472. # [01:28] <Josh_Soref> weinig: i didn't realize that hixie was using it for attribute event listeners
  473. # [01:28] * Quits: nwidell (nwidell@63.145.238.4) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  474. # [01:28] <Josh_Soref> heycam: i could inroduce function to actually mean function
  475. # [01:28] <Josh_Soref> anne: we could add eventhandelr for that
  476. # [01:28] * Quits: myakura (myakura@209.119.68.98) (Connection reset by peer)
  477. # [01:28] * Quits: mmielke (mmielke@63.145.238.4) (Ping timeout)
  478. # [01:28] * Joins: myakura (myakura@209.119.68.98)
  479. # [01:29] <Josh_Soref> heycam: i'll make the change about allowing typedefs to put some extended attributes on a type so whenever you use a typedef you get the attributes from them
  480. # [01:29] * Quits: ihilerio (israelh@63.145.238.4) (Ping timeout)
  481. # [01:29] <Josh_Soref> weinig: next...
  482. # [01:29] <Josh_Soref> ... i ask this every time i see you
  483. # [01:29] <Josh_Soref> ... do people/do other specs use Sequence, and Array?
  484. # [01:29] <Josh_Soref> heycam: now there are
  485. # [01:30] <Josh_Soref> weinig: the next thing, an implementation issue
  486. # [01:30] <Josh_Soref> ... is iteration order in for-in of properties on interfaces defined?
  487. # [01:30] <Josh_Soref> heycam: we were trying to defer to TC-39
  488. # [01:30] <Josh_Soref> weinig: TC-39 doesn't define them for host objects
  489. # [01:30] * Quits: mixedpuppy (mixedpuppy@63.145.238.4) (Quit: mixedpuppy)
  490. # [01:30] * Quits: myakura (myakura@209.119.68.98) (Connection reset by peer)
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  492. # [01:30] <Josh_Soref> ... in webkit, it's a random order
  493. # [01:30] <gsnedders> Does ES5 not define them as undefined for host objects?
  494. # [01:31] <gsnedders> Like, does the definition as undefined not apply for all objects?
  495. # [01:31] <Josh_Soref> ... i've not heard of any bugs regarding iteration order
  496. # [01:31] <Josh_Soref> Travis_MSFT: yes, we've heard of bugs
  497. # [01:31] <Josh_Soref> ... we end up breaking them every time we ship IE
  498. # [01:31] <Josh_Soref> ... it doesn't break many sies
  499. # [01:31] <Josh_Soref> ... more often than not, it's a testcase
  500. # [01:31] * Joins: mmielke (mmielke@63.145.238.4)
  501. # [01:32] <Josh_Soref> ... i would not want them to be defined, because it would be particularly hard
  502. # [01:32] * Joins: Linuz (Linuz@63.145.238.4)
  503. # [01:32] <Josh_Soref> ... in the spec, there's some mention of ordering
  504. # [01:32] <Josh_Soref> ... named and indexed properties
  505. # [01:32] <Josh_Soref> weinig: pragmatic question
  506. # [01:32] <Josh_Soref> ... ordering/lookup
  507. # [01:32] * Quits: myakura (myakura@209.119.68.98) (Connection reset by peer)
  508. # [01:32] * Joins: myakura (myakura@209.119.68.98)
  509. # [01:32] <Josh_Soref> ... on Window, in the browser
  510. # [01:33] <Josh_Soref> ... ... are you comfortable with the hooks on Window
  511. # [01:33] <Josh_Soref> ... in webkit first look at the this, and then look at the that, and ...
  512. # [01:33] * Joins: jihye (jihye@63.145.238.4)
  513. # [01:33] <Josh_Soref> ... there are multiple catchalls that have to be iimplemented in order
  514. # [01:33] <Josh_Soref> ... does anyone know if that's speced anywhere?
  515. # [01:34] <Josh_Soref> heycam: yes, between a combination of things in HTML and WebIDL, it should be completely defined
  516. # [01:34] * Joins: rniwa (rniwa@63.145.238.4)
  517. # [01:34] <Josh_Soref> jrossi2: correctly?
  518. # [01:34] <Josh_Soref> heycam: there's a bug that lists the order, and Travis_MSFT checkked it, and it didn't seem to hit any problems
  519. # [01:34] <Josh_Soref> weinig: it seems like we need lots of test cases for it
  520. # [01:34] * Quits: myakura (myakura@209.119.68.98) (Connection reset by peer)
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  522. # [01:35] <Josh_Soref> Travis_MSFT: i'm waiting for firefox to implement that part of the spec (sic)
  523. # [01:35] <Josh_Soref> weinig: the only problem we could hit is "var location;"
  524. # [01:35] <Josh_Soref> s/sic/sicking/
  525. # [01:35] <Josh_Soref> heycam: one question for people
  526. # [01:36] <Josh_Soref> ... the approach of having idl attributes mapped to accessor properties
  527. # [01:36] <Josh_Soref> ...there's an issue Travis_MSFT identified
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  529. # [01:36] <heycam> assigning to Element.prototype.onsomething
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  531. # [01:36] <Josh_Soref> ...there's an issue travwith an old version of prototype.js breeaking
  532. # [01:37] <heycam> since on* handlers are now accessor properties on the prototype that throw if their this object is wrong, this was a breaking change for some sites
  533. # [01:37] <heycam> where the previous implementation was to have those properties as data properties on the instances rahter than the prototype
  534. # [01:37] <Josh_Soref> ... because it checks the this of something
  535. # [01:37] <Josh_Soref> heycam: are people happy with that approach?
  536. # [01:37] <Josh_Soref> Travis_MSFT: yes
  537. # [01:37] <Josh_Soref> ... i particularly value it for overloads
  538. # [01:38] <Josh_Soref> ... it's easy to replace functionality when you need to
  539. # [01:38] <Josh_Soref> trackbot: yes
  540. # [01:38] <trackbot> Sorry, Josh_Soref, I don't understand 'trackbot: yes'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  541. # [01:38] <Josh_Soref> s/trackbot/Travis_MSFT/
  542. # [01:38] <Josh_Soref> weinig: yes, no issue
  543. # [01:38] <Josh_Soref> ... we're worried about performance
  544. # [01:38] <Josh_Soref> AlexR: array.length has two sides
  545. # [01:38] <Josh_Soref> ... it's a getter/setter pair
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  547. # [01:39] <Josh_Soref> ... that can be modeled as getter/setter today
  548. # [01:39] <Josh_Soref> ... second, if you write to an index property beyond current length, there's a magical put
  549. # [01:39] <Josh_Soref> ... shrinking can be repaired
  550. # [01:39] <Josh_Soref> ... growing requires morework
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  553. # [01:39] <Josh_Soref> weinig: will length be moved to the prototype be moved to use getter/setter
  554. # [01:40] <Josh_Soref> AlexR: it isn't clear how it will be resolved
  555. # [01:40] <Josh_Soref> heycam: earlier in the discussion, we brought up the idea with a more JS focussed thing which might replace WebIDL
  556. # [01:40] <Josh_Soref> ... not right away
  557. # [01:40] <Josh_Soref> ... we didn't have people chime in
  558. # [01:40] <Josh_Soref> [ what would it look like? ]
  559. # [01:41] <Josh_Soref> heycam: something where the actual constructs in JS would sound like JS
  560. # [01:41] <Josh_Soref> darobin: why not use JS?
  561. # [01:41] <Josh_Soref> heycam: because it wouldn't be very concise
  562. # [01:41] <Josh_Soref> mjs: javascript isn't very good for doing that
  563. # [01:41] <Josh_Soref> Travis_MSFT: it's a tricky thing to contemplate
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  567. # [01:42] <Josh_Soref> ... if you contemplate things the way ECMA does it, you have to be more verbose
  568. # [01:42] <Josh_Soref> ... on the other end of the thing, you
  569. # [01:42] <Josh_Soref> ... it might be an interesting exercise, but i'd like to finish webidl first
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  571. # [01:42] <Josh_Soref> mjs: there's some value that webidl is somewhat decoupled from js
  572. # [01:43] <Josh_Soref> ... js is the only langauge that's relevant for api specs
  573. # [01:43] <Josh_Soref> ... maybe someday every browser owill have python or dart
  574. # [01:43] <Josh_Soref> ... if it does, then we will regret it if we define things too tightly
  575. # [01:43] <heycam> Josh_Soref: one of the things which DAP was looking at was the ability to specify SOAP replacement
  576. # [01:43] <heycam> berjon: json-rpc using webidl
  577. # [01:43] <Josh_Soref> AlexR: having designed DOM for DART, the right interface will be a new way of doing things
  578. # [01:43] <Josh_Soref> ... we wound up doing something WebIDL
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  580. # [01:43] <heycam> Josh_Soref: they wanted to define an API for things where the implementaiton might not be a host object, it might be JS
  581. # [01:44] <heycam> ... but they want to define it in Web IDL
  582. # [01:44] <heycam> ... and in doing that, we were toying with the idea of writing a WebIDL to JSON binding
  583. # [01:44] <Josh_Soref> heycam: you're talking about using WebIDL to define a ReSTful interface
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  585. # [01:45] <Josh_Soref> ... i haven't seen a lot of discussion about that
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  587. # [01:45] <Josh_Soref> ... outside a bunch of people mentioning it on the DAP list
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  589. # [01:45] <Josh_Soref> darobin: it's actually feedback from webkit that brought this up iniitally
  590. # [01:45] <Josh_Soref> ... define a mapping to json objects
  591. # [01:45] <Josh_Soref> ... and define a mapping to json ipc
  592. # [01:45] <Josh_Soref> ... it would be defined separately
  593. # [01:46] <Josh_Soref> ... the way forward on that, is that i'll finish my JS prototype of it
  594. # [01:46] <Josh_Soref> ... and see if it flies or crases
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  597. # [01:47] <Josh_Soref> AlexR: there is a value in having a base description of what the apis are
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  599. # [01:47] <Josh_Soref> ... in most implemenetations those are in C+++
  600. # [01:47] <Josh_Soref> ... and those will correspond fairly closely to the IDL
  601. # [01:47] <Josh_Soref> ... but at the same time, having something that is too close to C++ doesn't serve JS very well
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  603. # [01:48] <Josh_Soref> mjs: in webkit today, we generate mu;multiple bindings from idl
  604. # [01:48] <Josh_Soref> ... they are just used ffor portions of the api exposed
  605. # [01:48] <Josh_Soref> ... ObjC, C++ bindings, mapping to various frameworks
  606. # [01:48] <Josh_Soref> ... possibly Python and Gobject
  607. # [01:49] <Josh_Soref> ... in some cases, people haffve specifically mentioned a desire to align with the relatively well known JS APs
  608. # [01:49] <Josh_Soref> ... as a value relatively close to the JS for users of their language
  609. # [01:49] <Josh_Soref> ... there may be value for a single interface description with mappings to languages
  610. # [01:49] <Josh_Soref> AlexR: mappings doesn't mean design centered
  611. # [01:49] <Josh_Soref> ... if we are designing a multilanguage thing
  612. # [01:50] <Josh_Soref> ... then we have a responsibility to all of them
  613. # [01:50] <Josh_Soref> darobin: i think that's a straw man
  614. # [01:50] <Josh_Soref> ... we are designing w/ js very much
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  616. # [01:50] <Josh_Soref> ... as much as i'd like to see a v2
  617. # [01:50] <Josh_Soref> ... we're not going to change the course very much
  618. # [01:51] <Josh_Soref> ... if you want a v2, bring a sketch
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  620. # [01:51] <Josh_Soref> heycam: a bunch of things are collapsing number types or renaming some keywords
  621. # [01:51] <Josh_Soref> mjs: the number types are sueful because they define error checking at the interface between the js interface and the underlying implementation
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  623. # [01:52] <Josh_Soref> ... having a single number type would require each spec to explain what happens when one passses a non interger
  624. # [01:52] <Josh_Soref> ... the case of i only accept integers in this range is fairly common
  625. # [01:52] <Josh_Soref> Marcos: i'd like to see more examples in the spec
  626. # [01:52] <Josh_Soref> heycam: i try to include one example per construct
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  629. # [01:53] <Josh_Soref> Marcos: i'm doing a review of it
  630. # [01:53] <Josh_Soref> anne: are we doing another LC?
  631. # [01:53] <Josh_Soref> ... and if we do, could we add String Enumerations
  632. # [01:53] <Josh_Soref> ... as a replacement for string constants
  633. # [01:53] <Josh_Soref> heycam: I talked to the WebPerf guys
  634. # [01:53] <Josh_Soref> ... and they're happy with dropping that
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  637. # [01:54] <Josh_Soref> heycam: wrt LC, do you have to if you make normative changes?
  638. # [01:54] <Josh_Soref> darobin: if you make changes which would invalidate a review, then you're supposed to go back to LC
  639. # [01:55] <Josh_Soref> ... normally we would have to go to LC, especially if we made this change
  640. # [01:55] <Josh_Soref> ... LC isn't a big deal, it's just process
  641. # [01:55] <Josh_Soref> ... we can have a 3 week last call, and if everyone is happy, just move to CR
  642. # [01:55] <Josh_Soref> ... and start testing
  643. # [01:56] <Josh_Soref> ... does anyone want to be the testing chief for webidl?
  644. # [01:56] <Josh_Soref> heycam: i thought that was only for new specs
  645. # [01:56] * Quits: jihye (jihye@63.145.238.4) (Ping timeout)
  646. # [01:56] <Josh_Soref> Marcos: HTML5 tests most of it, right?
  647. # [01:56] <Josh_Soref> jrossi2: that's irrelevant, we need an example of each thing
  648. # [01:56] <anne> heycam, what about AllowAny?
  649. # [01:57] <anne> heycam, I guess you have that recorded somewhere...
  650. # [01:57] <Josh_Soref> Josh_Soref: can't we just create a table for each feature of WebIDL and an interface in a given spec for it
  651. # [01:57] * Quits: weinig (weinig@63.145.238.4) (Quit: weinig)
  652. # [01:57] <Josh_Soref> Travis_MSFT: i think we solve the Example requirement and Testsuite by correlating to Spec items
  653. # [01:57] * Quits: chaals (chaals@63.145.238.4) (Ping timeout)
  654. # [01:58] <Josh_Soref> ACTION: Travis_MSFT to lead testing coordination for WebIDL
  655. # [01:58] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  656. # [01:58] * RRSAgent records action 2
  657. # [01:58] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Travis_MSFT
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  660. # [01:58] <JonathanJ> rrsagent, draft minutes
  661. # [01:58] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/01-webapps-minutes.html JonathanJ
  662. # [01:58] * Quits: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.169) (Quit: tlr)
  663. # [01:58] * jgraham thanks the MSFT people for volunteering before he felt too bad about it
  664. # [01:58] <MikeSmith> trackbot, status?
  665. # [01:58] * trackbot knows about the following 110 users: Olli, Tyler, Dzung, Ian, Adam, T.V., Samuel, JUNG HOON, Mark, Maciej, Balaji, Adrian, Adam, Eliot, Jing, chengyan, TING, stephen, Whan Kyu, Henry, Jonas, Ojan, Dowan, Aryeh, Jongpil, Thiago, Geoffrey, Philippe, Feras, Kenji, Guido, Wayne, Nikunj, Johnson, Dirk, Ryosuke, Jacob, James, Eric, Alex, Robin, Tony, Bo, Gilles, Songbai, jongyoul, Arve, Bryan, Vladimir, Christoph, Pablo, Laszlo, Zhiheng, Shiki, Brian, I
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  668. # [01:59] <Josh_Soref> ACTION: Travis to lead testing coordination for WebIDL
  669. # [01:59] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  670. # [01:59] * RRSAgent records action 3
  671. # [01:59] <trackbot> Created ACTION-638 - Lead testing coordination for WebIDL [on Travis Leithead - due 2011-11-09].
  672. # [01:59] <Josh_Soref> heycam: AllowAny is in the list of things from the LC feedback
  673. # [02:00] <MikeSmith> action-638?
  674. # [02:00] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-638
  675. # [02:00] <trackbot> ACTION-638 -- Travis Leithead to lead testing coordination for WebIDL -- due 2011-11-09 -- OPEN
  676. # [02:00] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/638
  677. # [02:00] <Josh_Soref> ... it had implications relating to override
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  679. # [02:00] <Josh_Soref> anne: I wasn't clear where it was used, apart from XHR
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  681. # [02:00] * MikeSmith Josh_Soref - list of users that trackbot knows is here: http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/users
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  685. # [02:01] * Josh_Soref MikeSmith so where's Rafael?
  686. # [02:01] * Josh_Soref ACTION rafaelw to send how to handle single pass not emptying all mutation queues to the list
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  689. # [02:01] <Josh_Soref> [ heycam talks about overloads ]
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  691. # [02:02] <Josh_Soref> [ specifically String and Number versions with AllowAny ]
  692. # [02:03] * MikeSmith Josh_Soref I guess Rafael doesn't show up because he's not in the DB list of members of the group - http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=42538
  693. # [02:03] * Josh_Soref is the person to your right in the list?
  694. # [02:03] * Josh_Soref no
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  696. # [02:04] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  697. # [02:04] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/01-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
  698. # [02:04] <Josh_Soref> ACTION darobin to ACTION rafaelw (or the Google AC) to send how to handle single pass not emptying all mutation queues to the list
  699. # [02:04] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  700. # [02:04] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - darobin
  701. # [02:04] <Josh_Soref> ACTION boarlicker to ACTION rafaelw (or the Google AC) to send how to handle single pass not emptying all mutation queues to the list
  702. # [02:04] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  703. # [02:04] <trackbot> Created ACTION-639 - ACTION rafaelw (or the Google AC) to send how to handle single pass not emptying all mutation queues to the list [on Robin Berjon - due 2011-11-09].
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  706. # [02:04] * MikeSmith Josh_Soref do you mean Israel?
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  708. # [02:04] <Josh_Soref> darobin: any other issues?
  709. # [02:04] * Josh_Soref i don't think so?
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  750. # [02:40] <Zakim> Attendees were tpac, Olli_Pettay, Ms2ger
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  914. # [12:15] <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, make minutes
  915. # [12:15] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/01-webapps-minutes.html Ms2ger
  916. # [12:18] <Ms2ger> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/TPAC2011#Agenda_Tuesday.2C_November_1
  917. # [12:18] <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, make minutes
  918. # [12:18] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/01-webapps-minutes.html Ms2ger
  919. # [12:18] <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, please excuse us
  920. # [12:18] <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/11/01-webapps-actions.rdf :
  921. # [12:18] <RRSAgent> ACTION: Art and Charles to make a proposal about how to appoint a person to be assigned for testing for a spec. [1]
  922. # [12:18] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/11/01-webapps-irc#T17-35-21
  923. # [12:18] <RRSAgent> ACTION: Travis_MSFT to lead testing coordination for WebIDL [2]
  924. # [12:19] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/11/01-webapps-irc#T00-52-53
  925. # [12:19] <RRSAgent> ACTION: Travis to lead testing coordination for WebIDL [3]
  926. # [12:19] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/11/01-webapps-irc#T00-53-50
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  1186. # [19:31] <dglazkov> PSA: Web Component Model discussion is at 1:30pm in Room 1234. That's on 12th floor.
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  1194. # [19:35] <krisk> http://mercurial.selenic.com/downloads/
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  1196. # [19:35] <krisk> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/Testing
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  1209. # [19:44] <hober> dglazkov: thanks; i updated http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2011#Session_Grid with that
  1210. # [19:44] * Parts: Wonsuk (wonsuk11_l@63.145.238.4)
  1211. # [19:44] <dglazkov> hober: whoa. you can edit those pages?!
  1212. # [19:45] * dglazkov is totally kidding.
  1213. # [19:45] <Ms2ger> dglazkov, *I* can do that ;)
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  1216. # [19:51] * dglazkov makes history and edits his first page on w3.org. You can't stop me now!
  1217. # [19:52] * dom can stop your account actually
  1218. # [19:52] <dglazkov> :(
  1219. # [19:52] <dom> :)
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  1221. # [19:56] * Ms2ger can edit dom
  1222. # [19:57] * dom shudders
  1223. # [19:57] * dom fears someone will try mutating him
  1224. # [19:57] * dom starts cloning himself into trees
  1225. # [19:57] * Quits: howard (howard_wan@63.145.238.4) (Quit: howard)
  1226. # [19:58] * smaug is only creating API to observe dom
  1227. # [19:59] * dom proposes the DOM and Privacy Community Group
  1228. # [19:59] <dglazkov> wait till we can extend dom
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  1230. # [20:00] * Ms2ger commits dom
  1231. # [20:01] * dom feels elevated to a 4th level
  1232. # [20:03] <darobin> what's this thing with the component model being an official breakout now?
  1233. # [20:03] <darobin> I thought dglazkov wanted to stick it up to the man
  1234. # [20:03] <dglazkov> the man turned out to be quite nice
  1235. # [20:03] <dglazkov> so I no longer carry such ambitions
  1236. # [20:05] <darobin> you're such a sell out
  1237. # [20:05] <dglazkov> :)
  1238. # [20:06] <darobin> and there I was charmed up by the guy who says "all y'all"
  1239. # [20:06] <darobin> fool that I was!
  1240. # [20:06] <dglazkov> I only use "y'all" as a weapon.
  1241. # [20:06] <dglazkov> though I did live in Alabama for 14 years
  1242. # [20:07] * Quits: mmielke (mmielke@63.145.238.4) (Ping timeout)
  1243. # [20:07] <Ms2ger> Where you were legally obliged to carry deadly weapons?
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  1245. # [20:08] <dglazkov> no, but I was surrounded by trucks with W stickers
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  1299. # [21:21] <morrita> component model session is happening at #1234 (12th floor)
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  1327. # [21:35] <anne> is anyone else using this channel?
  1328. # [21:35] <hober> yo
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  1330. # [21:35] <anne> occupy#webapps
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  1332. # [21:36] <hober> don't you mean <x-occupy-webapps>?
  1333. # [21:36] <Travis_MSFT> #webapps-chat?
  1334. # [21:36] * anne changes topic to 'Web Component Model'
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  1349. # [21:41] <hober> ScribeNick: weinig
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  1352. # [21:41] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-webapps-irc
  1353. # [21:41] <anne> scribe: weinig
  1354. # [21:41] <anne> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  1355. # [21:41] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-webapps-minutes.html anne
  1356. # [21:42] <anne> RRSAgent, make minutes public
  1357. # [21:42] <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', anne. Try /msg RRSAgent help
  1358. # [21:42] <anne> RRSAgent, make public
  1359. # [21:42] <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make public', anne. Try /msg RRSAgent help
  1360. # [21:42] <weinig> dg: We are starting with an overview and demo
  1361. # [21:42] <weinig> dg: [looks for dongle]
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  1365. # [21:43] <anne> RRSAgent, make logs public
  1366. # [21:43] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, anne
  1367. # [21:43] <anne> RRSAgent, also, fuck you
  1368. # [21:43] <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'also, fuck you', anne. Try /msg RRSAgent help
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  1372. # [21:44] <weinig> ar: We are working on an imperative model that allows subclassing HTML Elements
  1373. # [21:45] <weinig> ar: We are working on a declarative form, but it is not ready
  1374. # [21:45] <weinig> ar: [gives a demo]
  1375. # [21:45] <weinig> ar: In the demo we are creating an idiomatic JavaScript class that subclasses from HTMLElement
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  1378. # [21:46] <weinig> ar: the class is registered as an extension, must start with x-
  1379. # [21:46] <weinig> ar: this plugs into the parser to add your own element types
  1380. # [21:46] <weinig> travis: would you subclass from Node
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  1382. # [21:47] <weinig> ar: that wouldn't make much sense, you really need to subclass HTMLElement
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  1384. # [21:47] <weinig> yehuda: can you subclass HTMLInputElement
  1385. # [21:48] <weinig> ar: that would be hard, since we would have to define the shadow DOM for form controls for all browsers
  1386. # [21:48] <Ms2ger> Meeting: Component Model session
  1387. # [21:48] <weinig> ar: it might make sense to only inherit from HTMLElement
  1388. # [21:48] <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, make minutes
  1389. # [21:48] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-webapps-minutes.html Ms2ger
  1390. # [21:48] <weinig> yehuda: what about span?
  1391. # [21:48] * Joins: abarsto (abarsto@192.100.124.220)
  1392. # [21:48] * hober thanks Ms2ger
  1393. # [21:48] * Ms2ger np :)
  1394. # [21:48] <weinig> ar: span is just like HTMLElement
  1395. # [21:48] * abarsto is now known as ArtB
  1396. # [21:48] <weinig> ar: another aspect is the Shadow DOM, from XBL
  1397. # [21:49] <weinig> ar: any element should be allowed to have a shadow DOM
  1398. # [21:49] <weinig> travis: CSS has generated content, how is this different
  1399. # [21:49] <Ms2ger> i/We are starting with an overview and demo/Topic: Overview
  1400. # [21:49] <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, make minutes
  1401. # [21:49] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-webapps-minutes.html Ms2ger
  1402. # [21:50] <weinig> ar: generated content has certain restrictions, just before and after for instance
  1403. # [21:50] <weinig> yehuda: can shadow DOM listen for new events
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  1405. # [21:51] <weinig> ar: [notes that events will work]
  1406. # [21:52] * Joins: evanli (evan@63.145.238.4)
  1407. # [21:52] <weinig> ar: using the shadow dom, you could use canvas as the rendering, while still having the DOM
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  1409. # [21:52] <weinig> ar: shadow DOM is conceptually different, and can be specified seperately
  1410. # [21:53] <weinig> ar: [notes in demo that subclassed element has multiple parts, though only one real child in the DOM]
  1411. # [21:53] * Joins: kensaku (kensaku@63.145.238.4)
  1412. # [21:53] <weinig> ar: many complicated components suffer from "div soup" today, and shadow dom helps this
  1413. # [21:54] <weinig> ar: shadow DOM is created using ShadowRoot constructor
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  1415. # [21:54] <weinig> ar: shadow DOM API allows you to set a content element
  1416. # [21:55] <weinig> dg: content element gives you an insertion point
  1417. # [21:56] <weinig> dg: it also doesn't effect the DOM, only the layout
  1418. # [21:56] <weinig> dc: a good example is <details>
  1419. # [21:56] <weinig> dc: with <summary>
  1420. # [21:56] <weinig> dc: [draws disclosure triangle UI]
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  1422. # [21:57] <weinig> dc: details would have a shadow DOM with an image for the disclosure triangle
  1423. # [21:57] * heycam and you use XPath right? :)
  1424. # [21:58] <weinig> dc: <summary> will be forwarded to content elements in the shadow dom
  1425. # [21:58] <weinig> dc: content elements get chosen in document order
  1426. # [21:58] <weinig> ar: this is all about creating HTML element subclassing
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  1428. # [21:59] <weinig> ar: [shows using subclassing of HTML Elements using ecmascript 6 syntax]
  1429. # [21:59] <weinig> js: Why is ShadowRoot a new node type?
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  1433. # [22:00] <weinig> js: Why not use element
  1434. # [22:00] * cyril_ is now known as cyril
  1435. # [22:00] <weinig> ar: we consider it like a document fragment
  1436. # [22:00] <weinig> ar: unlike HTCs, this is not a new document
  1437. # [22:01] <weinig> js: adding a new node seems like a big deal
  1438. # [22:01] <weinig> js: XBL just uses a template element
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  1440. # [22:01] <weinig> ar: I would be ok with that, since shadow root combines both creating the root and attaching it
  1441. # [22:01] <weinig> dg: we originally just wanted to use document fragment
  1442. # [22:02] <weinig> dg: the shadow root never renders
  1443. # [22:02] <weinig> dg: dominic thinks we should only render the shadow root
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  1445. # [22:02] <weinig> dg: then do css magic
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  1448. # [22:03] <weinig> dc: we want innerHTML to work, so we don't use document fragment
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  1450. # [22:04] <weinig> dc: if shadow root are elements, we would probably want to not replace the children, but rather the element it is the shadow of
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  1452. # [22:05] * heycam remembers somebody proposing display:transparent?
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  1455. # [22:06] <weinig> rs: one question is how does styling the host element effect shadow content
  1456. # [22:06] <weinig> ar: we think that starting with subclassing just HTML elements is a good start
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  1460. # [22:07] <weinig> ar: form serialization is something we should allow through a protocol that any element can implement
  1461. # [22:07] <anne> Hixie: is web controls still up?
  1462. # [22:07] <anne> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-controls/current-work/
  1463. # [22:07] <weinig> ar: the component model is helping us flesh out what problems remain in the web platform
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  1467. # [22:08] <anne> nothing much there
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  1469. # [22:08] <weinig> ar: yes, you could describe implementations using this, but we don't want that right away
  1470. # [22:09] <weinig> ar: one thing we should discuss is what is needed from the declarative model
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  1472. # [22:09] <weinig> macrus: I was part of the team that made HTC
  1473. # [22:10] <weinig> marcus: we took the opposite approach, with the declarative model first
  1474. # [22:10] <weinig> marcus: what are the hurdles
  1475. # [22:10] <weinig> ar: we are thinking about and <element> element
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  1477. # [22:11] <weinig> yehuda: I found the declarative part of XTC the most confusing
  1478. # [22:11] <weinig> yehuda: may have been documentation
  1479. # [22:11] <weinig> yehada: may have been my background as a web developer
  1480. # [22:12] <weinig> ar: [types on the screen]
  1481. # [22:13] <weinig> ar: what happens when we are loading the webcomponent and the unknown elements are parsed
  1482. # [22:14] <weinig> ar: one problem is that doing it after the fact is that people may have references to the unknown elements already
  1483. # [22:14] <weinig> ar: we would have a "becomes" event
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  1485. # [22:15] <weinig> someone: why not sync
  1486. # [22:15] <weinig> everyone: sync is bad, no one likes sync
  1487. # [22:16] <weinig> anne: another options is to make it like html manifest
  1488. # [22:17] <weinig> anne: that solves the source order (unknown element before <link>) but not loading issue
  1489. # [22:17] <weinig> js: changing elements in place seems bad
  1490. # [22:17] <weinig> ar: we are not doing that
  1491. # [22:18] <weinig> ar: the "becomes" events will create a new element, and the old one gets yanked out the tree
  1492. # [22:19] * smaug hopes that got scribed wrongly
  1493. # [22:19] * weinig doesn't think he does
  1494. # [22:19] <weinig> [lots of yelling]
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  1498. # [22:20] <weinig> anne: the new element will actually be created before the event
  1499. # [22:20] * Quits: rniwa (rniwa@166.250.32.117) (Ping timeout)
  1500. # [22:20] * rniwa_ is now known as rniwa
  1501. # [22:21] <weinig> js: it doesn't matter if the element is in the document
  1502. # [22:21] <weinig> js: we can fire events on all elements
  1503. # [22:21] * Joins: rniwa_ (rniwa@166.250.32.117)
  1504. # [22:21] * hober smaug: weinig got it right
  1505. # [22:22] <weinig> ar: [is showing stuff on a projector]
  1506. # [22:23] * Joins: Rossen (Rossen@63.145.238.4)
  1507. # [22:23] * anne thinks this is all rather complex
  1508. # [22:23] <heycam> Scribe: heycam
  1509. # [22:23] * hober anne: indeed
  1510. # [22:23] * Quits: rniwa (rniwa@63.145.238.4) (Ping timeout)
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  1512. # [22:24] * weinig thanks heycam
  1513. # [22:24] <heycam> ar: [explains how the proposed declarative syntax maps to js]
  1514. # [22:24] <heycam> ar: we use <template> because we'd like to introduce that in the model-view proposal as well
  1515. # [22:24] * Quits: rniwa_ (rniwa@166.250.32.117) (Ping timeout)
  1516. # [22:24] <heycam> ... this template does not run script
  1517. # [22:24] <heycam> ... it doesn't have side effects, network requests
  1518. # [22:25] <heycam> dg: template would be a really useful chunk to have without shadow dom or component model
  1519. # [22:25] * Joins: rogerk (Adium@108.7.70.167)
  1520. # [22:25] <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, make minutes
  1521. # [22:25] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-webapps-minutes.html Ms2ger
  1522. # [22:25] <heycam> ar: through <link> you can importa a definition
  1523. # [22:25] <heycam> ... <link rel="webcomponent href="comment.html">
  1524. # [22:26] <heycam> ... what if you watn to declare that some attributes proxy to an internal implementation?
  1525. # [22:26] <heycam> s/watn/want/
  1526. # [22:26] <heycam> ... so that you can do a +1 or Like button that has access to cross origin resources
  1527. # [22:26] <heycam> ... all these things are same origin in this world so far
  1528. # [22:26] * Quits: Kai (chatzilla@63.145.238.4) (Ping timeout)
  1529. # [22:26] <heycam> ... but I think we can come up witha declarative syntax where you can define your attributes, script runs in the cross origin context, and postMessage is used between them
  1530. # [22:26] * Joins: tantek (tantek@63.145.238.4)
  1531. # [22:27] <heycam> dg: it could just bea n attribute on <link> "confine"
  1532. # [22:27] <heycam> ... instead of introducing the definiton into the document, it instead introduces proxies for these elements
  1533. # [22:27] <heycam> ... then you could have a real live thing that has a synchronous api to a cross origin iframe e.g.
  1534. # [22:27] <heycam> ... that looks like your component but exists in a separate document
  1535. # [22:27] <heycam> ... it would just work
  1536. # [22:27] <heycam> ar: the primary impetus for this system design is that when building large scale apps, we want to use DOM as the primary retained mode API
  1537. # [22:28] <heycam> ... we write declaratively the template, and use script to modify later
  1538. # [22:28] <Ms2ger> s/bea n/be an/
  1539. # [22:28] <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, make minutes
  1540. # [22:28] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-webapps-minutes.html Ms2ger
  1541. # [22:28] <heycam> yk: seems good, but i'd like to play with it to give feedback
  1542. # [22:28] <heycam> ar: haven't provided builds yet, but it's on our todo lists
  1543. # [22:28] <heycam> s/lists/list/
  1544. # [22:28] <heycam> yk: i think it woud be valuable to get people to try to build something with it
  1545. # [22:28] * Joins: sriramyadavalli (sriramyada@166.250.33.64)
  1546. # [22:28] <heycam> js: the element element needs the ability to have declaratively not xbl1 declarative style but something where you can define an api
  1547. # [22:29] * Ms2ger suggests Present+
  1548. # [22:29] <heycam> ar: if you have a special script type, to prevent it from being executed otherwise...
  1549. # [22:29] <heycam> [ ar puts <script> inside <element> ]
  1550. # [22:29] <heycam> dg: in the script, "this" would not be window, it'd be the element
  1551. # [22:29] * Joins: kensaku_ (kensaku@63.145.238.4)
  1552. # [22:30] <heycam> ar: you've define your own Constructor name in an attribute, but instead if you use <script> in there you'd just use the name of the function/class you declare in there
  1553. # [22:30] <heycam> yk: don't want it to conflict with the extends="" you specify either
  1554. # [22:30] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
  1555. # [22:30] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
  1556. # [22:30] <heycam> js: one of the things that's nice about xbl1/2 is the ability to have purely stylistic bindings attached with css
  1557. # [22:30] <heycam> ... a shadow dom that's generated and which you can put two borders instead of one for example
  1558. # [22:31] * Quits: Marcos (Adium@63.145.238.4) (Quit: Leaving.)
  1559. # [22:31] <heycam> ar: i think the css style of attachemnt is desirable
  1560. # [22:31] <ArtB> Meeting: Component Model Gathering @ TPAC
  1561. # [22:31] <heycam> ... you can think of tagName as a css property you're matching against
  1562. # [22:31] <heycam> ... one thing to worry about is applying/unapplying templates
  1563. # [22:31] * Quits: sriramyadavalli (sriramyada@166.250.33.64) (Ping timeout)
  1564. # [22:31] <heycam> js: i don't think css-attached bindings should allow defining api
  1565. # [22:32] * Quits: evanli (evan@63.145.238.4) (Quit: evanli)
  1566. # [22:32] * ArtB if you folks could use the Present+ macro, that'd be great. F.ex: Present+ Anne
  1567. # [22:32] * Quits: kensaku (kensaku@63.145.238.4) (Ping timeout)
  1568. # [22:32] <heycam> js: a trivial example in css is you can't have a two bordered element
  1569. # [22:32] <heycam> dg: we had this discussion, spent a bit of time, any time you step into decorators it's a pit of despair
  1570. # [22:32] <heycam> ... the problem is simple
  1571. # [22:32] <heycam> ... decorators should have no non-local effects
  1572. # [22:32] * Quits: ArtB (abarsto@192.100.124.220) (Quit: Leaving.)
  1573. # [22:32] <heycam> ... constrained to that, there's little interesting you can do
  1574. # [22:33] <heycam> ... maybe css should just handle this use case
  1575. # [22:33] <heycam> js: i think css should be able to do it, and by using this syntax
  1576. # [22:33] <heycam> ... you'll also need <content>
  1577. # [22:33] <heycam> js: you'll want to have a <style> element too, so you can attach scoped style
  1578. # [22:33] <heycam> ar: that's not missing, it's in the <template>
  1579. # [22:33] <heycam> js: i don't see why we couldn't use the same shadom dom for this
  1580. # [22:33] <heycam> ... we can allow behaviour, but just not api
  1581. # [22:34] <heycam> ... if all you want to do is change style, why would you want to add api?
  1582. # [22:34] <heycam> ar: why would you want to add event handlers?
  1583. # [22:34] * Quits: richt (richt@63.145.238.4) (Client exited)
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  1585. # [22:34] <heycam> ... if I can script the object from event handlers, the horse has left the barn
  1586. # [22:34] <heycam> dg: if you don't get that object, then there's nothing interesting you can do
  1587. # [22:34] <heycam> ... that's why xbl2 is so hard
  1588. # [22:34] <heycam> ... because there's nothing you can take away forom it
  1589. # [22:34] <heycam> js: xbl2 has a problem with binding/unbinding
  1590. # [22:35] <heycam> ... from a js point of view, any binding that is attached is done at creation time and never detached
  1591. # [22:35] * Quits: si-wei (si-wei@63.145.238.4) (Quit: si-wei)
  1592. # [22:35] <heycam> ar: there is an additional step we'd like to propose
  1593. # [22:35] <heycam> ... it's an orthogonal problem
  1594. # [22:35] <heycam> ... we can accept something like MS's watchSelector proposal, and build on that
  1595. # [22:35] <heycam> js: i want to do something not scripted
  1596. # [22:35] * Joins: evanli (evan@63.145.238.4)
  1597. # [22:35] <heycam> js: you might have a specific css property type that desugars to watchSelector
  1598. # [22:35] * Quits: krisk (krisk@63.145.238.4) (Ping timeout)
  1599. # [22:35] <heycam> ... and then have a shadow for the shadow, or a pseudoshadow
  1600. # [22:36] <heycam> ... if an element has a shadow and you want to compose it with another, for example a parent, then you have two levels of shadow doms
  1601. # [22:36] * Quits: kensaku_ (kensaku@63.145.238.4) (Client exited)
  1602. # [22:36] <heycam> ... you need to define how it flattens
  1603. # [22:36] <heycam> ... your'e saying i can't extend the api?
  1604. # [22:36] <heycam> ... which is the constraint you need to enforce if you want to allow detachment
  1605. # [22:36] * Quits: ernesto_jimenez (ernesto_ji@63.145.238.4) (Quit: ernesto_jimenez)
  1606. # [22:36] <heycam> ... at that point, why not allow detachment?
  1607. # [22:36] <heycam> dg: if you are applying with css, you need detachment
  1608. # [22:36] <heycam> js: i don't want detachment nad attachment of js apis from css
  1609. # [22:36] <heycam> ar: so side effect fre?
  1610. # [22:37] <heycam> ar: i suggest that's a separate problem
  1611. # [22:37] * Quits: Rossen (Rossen@63.145.238.4) (Ping timeout)
  1612. # [22:37] <heycam> Present+ Alex_Russell
  1613. # [22:37] <heycam> Present+ Dmitri_Glazkov
  1614. # [22:37] <heycam> Present+ Sam_Weinig
  1615. # [22:37] <heycam> Present+ Ted_OConnor
  1616. # [22:37] <Ms2ger> Present+ Jonas_Sicking
  1617. # [22:37] <heycam> Present: Travis_Leithead
  1618. # [22:37] <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, make minutes
  1619. # [22:37] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-webapps-minutes.html Ms2ger
  1620. # [22:37] <heycam> Present: James_Graham
  1621. # [22:37] <heycam> Present: Cameron_McCormack
  1622. # [22:37] * Ms2ger heycam +
  1623. # [22:37] <heycam> Present: Anne_VK
  1624. # [22:37] <heycam> Present+ Ian_Hickson
  1625. # [22:38] <heycam> Present+ Yehuda_Katz
  1626. # [22:38] <heycam> Present+ Dominic_Cooney
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  1629. # [22:38] <heycam> Present+ Ryosuke_Niwa
  1630. # [22:38] <heycam> Present+ Wonsook_Lee
  1631. # [22:38] <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, make minutes
  1632. # [22:38] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-webapps-minutes.html Ms2ger
  1633. # [22:38] <heycam> Present+ Doug_Schepers
  1634. # [22:38] <heycam> Present+ Jacob_Rossi
  1635. # [22:38] <heycam> Present+ Roland_Steiner
  1636. # [22:38] <heycam> dg: the problem I see here is that there's a party that's interested in doing decorators
  1637. # [22:38] <heycam> ... the set of people working on it is not here
  1638. # [22:38] <heycam> ... and we're blocked on that
  1639. # [22:39] <heycam> ... you're saying "get interested in that problem"
  1640. # [22:39] <heycam> js: i'm fine with coming up with a proposal for it
  1641. # [22:39] <heycam> ... I think we'll need a proposal for it before implementing in Gecko
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  1643. # [22:39] <heycam> Present+ Cyril_Concolato
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  1646. # [22:39] <heycam> Present+ Wilhelm
  1647. # [22:39] <heycam> Present+ James_Graham
  1648. # [22:39] <heycam> Present+ Sylvain_Galineau
  1649. # [22:39] <heycam> Present+ maybe_some_other_people
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  1653. # [22:40] <heycam> Present+ Marcus_MSFT
  1654. # [22:40] <Ms2ger> Present+ Jonas_Sicking, Cameron_McCormack, James_Graham
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  1656. # [22:40] <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, make minutes
  1657. # [22:40] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-webapps-minutes.html Ms2ger
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  1664. # [22:41] * smaug is interested in bindings where the binding can be from some other domain (or perhaps implemented by the browser itself (chrome:// )) and for that declarative bindings would be great.
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  1666. # [22:41] <Ms2ger> Present+ Alex_Russell, Dmitri_Glazkov, Sam_Weinig, Ted_OConnor, Travis_Leithead, James_Graham
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  1668. # [22:41] <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, make minutes
  1669. # [22:41] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-webapps-minutes.html Ms2ger
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  1749. # [23:43] * Quits: spoussa (Adium@192.55.55.37) (Ping timeout)
  1750. # [23:43] * Quits: fukuno (fukuno@63.145.238.4) (Ping timeout)
  1751. # [23:44] * Quits: davidb (davidb@174.91.41.218) (Quit: davidb)
  1752. # [23:44] * Joins: Rossen (Rossen@63.145.238.4)
  1753. # [23:44] * Joins: ernesto_jimenez (ernesto_ji@63.145.238.4)
  1754. # [23:44] * Quits: myakura (myakura@63.145.238.4) (Client exited)
  1755. # [23:45] * Joins: krisk (krisk@63.145.238.4)
  1756. # [23:46] * Quits: krisk (krisk@63.145.238.4) (Quit: Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies.)
  1757. # [23:46] * Joins: krisk (krisk@63.145.238.4)
  1758. # [23:46] * Joins: abarsto (abarsto@63.145.238.4)
  1759. # [23:46] * abarsto is now known as ArtB
  1760. # [23:47] * Joins: evanli (evan@63.145.238.4)
  1761. # [23:47] * Quits: stakagi (stakagi@63.145.238.4) (Ping timeout)
  1762. # [23:50] * Joins: mmielke (mmielke@63.145.238.4)
  1763. # [23:50] * Joins: fukuno (fukuno@63.145.238.4)
  1764. # [23:51] * Joins: myakura (myakura@63.145.238.4)
  1765. # [23:53] * Joins: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.169)
  1766. # [23:53] * Quits: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.169) (Client exited)
  1767. # [23:55] * Quits: tpod (tpod@63.145.238.4) (Ping timeout)
  1768. # [23:56] * Joins: stakagi (stakagi@63.145.238.4)
  1769. # [23:56] * Joins: karl (karlcow@128.30.54.58)
  1770. # [23:57] * Joins: smaug (chatzilla@193.199.87.46)
  1771. # [23:59] * Joins: Travis_MSFT (Travis_MSF@63.145.238.4)
  1772. # [23:59] * Joins: JonathanJ1 (hollobit@63.145.238.4)
  1773. # Session Close: Thu Nov 03 00:00:01 2011

The end :)