/irc-logs / w3c / #webapps / 2011-12-12 / end

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  59. # [20:19] <timeless> tantek_: if you wanted to drop links now, feel free, my vacation's over
  60. # [20:19] <tantek_> welcome back timeless!
  61. # [20:19] <timeless> (today's exercise involves reading geoloc api 2)
  62. # [20:19] <tantek_> what were we discussing again?
  63. # [20:19] <timeless> your complaints about Intents
  64. # [20:19] <tantek_> ah yes
  65. # [20:20] <tantek_> this is a good start: http://tantek.com/2011/220/b1/web-actions-a-new-building-block
  66. # [20:23] * tantek_ needs to do an update with "anatomy of a web action" with further details about how today's real world web actions work (and steps toward real world best practices - key things to understand before we attempt to standardize anything)
  67. # [20:24] <timeless> did you get around to reading my 6 posts?
  68. # [20:24] * timeless is slowly reading tantek_ 's one
  69. # [20:24] <timeless> and yeah, i definitely prefer Actions over Intents
  70. # [20:24] <timeless> it's unclear whether it'll be possible to fix that before publication
  71. # [20:25] <tantek_> fix what before publication of what?
  72. # [20:25] <timeless> the terminology before the W3 Intents TF publishes whatever it does
  73. # [20:26] <timeless> btw, is there a useful article to link to for NASCAR?
  74. # [20:26] <timeless> everyone uses it colloquially, but that's terrible for posterity
  75. # [20:26] <timeless> someday NASCAR may reform... and then citing them will be confusing for people who didn't live through it
  76. # [20:27] * timeless presumes that the NASCAR reference is to NASCAR's web site, and not the standard NASCAR car itself w/ its logos of various sizes
  77. # [20:27] <timeless> s/standard/typical/
  78. # [20:28] <timeless> you have bullets for Later and Save
  79. # [20:28] <tantek_> timeless I helped contribute to a wikipedia article about a year ago on NASCAR problem but it got deleted :(
  80. # [20:28] <timeless> from my perspective, the action distinction is something that the USER chooses and shouldn't need to tell the Page about at all
  81. # [20:29] <timeless> tantek_: clearly you need to publish an article and then get someone to write a wikipedia article that references it!
  82. # [20:29] <tantek_> no the NASCAR reference *is* for the cars
  83. # [20:29] <tantek_> plastered with all the brands
  84. # [20:29] <tantek_> not the website(s) if any
  85. # [20:29] * timeless sighs
  86. # [20:29] <tantek_> as a metaphor for websites
  87. # [20:29] <timeless> i naively assumed it was actually talking about their website having dozens of like-via-service-provider-x
  88. # [20:30] <timeless> because it seemed likely that nascar's site would have lots of various potential fan connections
  89. # [20:30] <timeless> and a really bad design
  90. # [20:30] <timeless> :)
  91. # [20:30] <timeless> anyway, please publish an article about nascar cars and their logos so i can reference it :)
  92. # [20:30] <tantek_> timeless, here's another post on web actions: http://www.flatfrogblog.com/2011/08/07/web-actions/
  93. # [20:31] <timeless> anyway...
  94. # [20:31] <tantek_> timeless - oldest NASCAR metaphor reference I know of is this one: http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2006/05/excess-blog-flair.html
  95. # [20:31] <tantek_> has actual photo of a NASCAR vehicle with brands
  96. # [20:31] <timeless> i claim that Later and Save are user choices which wouldn't be exposed to site markup
  97. # [20:32] <tantek_> timeless - nothing I said in my post implied anything about exposing to site markup
  98. # [20:32] <tantek_> I'm merely performing the scientific role of analyzing existing behavior in the wild
  99. # [20:33] <tantek_> in order to form models/hypotheses
  100. # [20:33] <tantek_> which to test and perhaps eventually standardize
  101. # [20:33] <timeless> ok
  102. # [20:33] <tantek_> I have pretty close to zero hope for the W3 Intents TF
  103. # [20:33] <tantek_> or anything framed as "web intents" in general
  104. # [20:34] <tantek_> however I'm not going to get in the way of folks pursuing that trying that experiment (even though I think it's doomed to fail)
  105. # [20:34] <timeless> > This may be the oldest web action.
  106. # [20:34] <tantek_> I'm pursuing web actions as both a better framing and a more user-centric view of a mostly overlapping problem space.
  107. # [20:34] <timeless> would you call "send page (via link)" a non web action?
  108. # [20:34] <tantek_> timeless, please provide URL to example to evaluate
  109. # [20:35] <tantek_> I'm not sure what you mean by that in general
  110. # [20:35] <tantek_> (in abstract there is insufficient information)
  111. # [20:35] <timeless> what browser do you have?
  112. # [20:35] <timeless> in firefox, file>send link
  113. # [20:35] <tantek_> I tend to run several browsers :)
  114. # [20:35] <timeless> in ie9, file>send>link by email...
  115. # [20:35] <tantek_> no I wouldn't call "firefox, file>send link" a web action
  116. # [20:35] <tantek_> it is an action
  117. # [20:36] <tantek_> but it's not web-like
  118. # [20:36] <timeless> what makes it non web-like?
  119. # [20:36] <tantek_> it's not from one web site across to another web site
  120. # [20:36] <tantek_> lack of being web-like makes it non web-like
  121. # [20:36] <timeless> historically it was from one web site via aol
  122. # [20:36] <timeless> now you could claim that aol was a walled garden
  123. # [20:36] <timeless> but i claim that's just being pedantic
  124. # [20:36] <tantek_> right, you can twist theoretical examples anyway you want
  125. # [20:36] <tantek_> which is why I asked you for a specific example
  126. # [20:37] <timeless> right
  127. # [20:37] <tantek_> if you call something "web" which is not web-like, you are watering down (and eventually making meaningless) the term "web"
  128. # [20:37] <tantek_> that's not pedantic
  129. # [20:37] <timeless> well
  130. # [20:37] <tantek_> that's actually using words for what they mean
  131. # [20:37] <tantek_> rather than using words as marketing
  132. # [20:37] <timeless> i claim that the <web> part of it is useless
  133. # [20:37] <tantek_> then don't call it web
  134. # [20:37] <timeless> the actions have existed for a long time
  135. # [20:37] <tantek_> call it something else
  136. # [20:38] <timeless> they're just being ported to being called "web" <same-action-again>
  137. # [20:38] <tantek_> yeah, menus and actions have been in DOS
  138. # [20:38] <tantek_> whatever
  139. # [20:38] <tantek_> so it's meaningless to go into that rathole theory discussion "the actions have existed for a long time"
  140. # [20:38] <timeless> basically your <share> is really just the current evolution of send-link-via-email
  141. # [20:38] <tantek_> and no, it's not <same-action-again>
  142. # [20:38] <tantek_> unless you've got the research to prove it
  143. # [20:38] <tantek_> for both past
  144. # [20:38] <tantek_> and present
  145. # [20:38] <tantek_> and then comparing the two
  146. # [20:38] <tantek_> = citations required
  147. # [20:39] <timeless> so i have to prove to you that Facebookers are the new aolers
  148. # [20:39] <tantek_> which is why I started my blog post with research
  149. # [20:39] <tantek_> and concrete examples
  150. # [20:39] <timeless> and that what they once would have send-via-aol they now share-via-facebook?
  151. # [20:39] <tantek_> to work towards research-based understanding
  152. # [20:39] <tantek_> rather than hand-wavy theory feature based understanding
  153. # [20:39] <timeless> that's annoying
  154. # [20:39] <timeless> i don't have a current aol account
  155. # [20:39] <tantek_> science is hard, let's go marketing
  156. # [20:39] <tantek_> :P
  157. # [20:39] <timeless> and it being a walled garden, in the past, i don't have an easy way to reach back and show you the past
  158. # [20:40] <timeless> i claim it's probably doable though
  159. # [20:40] <timeless> there probably are people who have posted pictures of aol inboxes w/ shared links
  160. # [20:40] <timeless> and the content of those links will be more or less the same silly content in modern facebook pages
  161. # [20:40] <timeless> (probably it was "on the internet no one knows you're a dog" pictures, whereas today it's a "lolcat")
  162. # [20:41] <timeless> and sure, we evolved from dogs to cats, but that's hardly progrees
  163. # [20:41] <timeless> s/ees/ess/
  164. # [20:42] <tantek_> great, now go from "research is theoretically possible" to blogging instances of research and we'll have research we can then cite and reason from
  165. # [20:42] <tantek_> otherwise it's just handwaving
  166. # [20:43] * timeless doesn't have enough time to do that
  167. # [20:43] <tantek_> like I said, the web intents folks are welcome to just make stuff up
  168. # [20:43] <tantek_> I'm going to base my work on web actions on actual research on real world market interactions/adoption
  169. # [20:43] <timeless> well
  170. # [20:43] <tantek_> and we can see which succeeds
  171. # [20:43] <timeless> can i convince you to consider that aol time period as a real world market interaction/adoption?
  172. # [20:43] <tantek_> history has not been kind to web standards that lead with theory rather than practice (XML, RDF, etc.)
  173. # [20:44] <timeless> instead of ignoring it
  174. # [20:44] <tantek_> so I know where I'll spend my time
  175. # [20:44] <tantek_> historical research is informative, but not nearly as much as research of existing uses
  176. # [20:44] <Ms2ger> Bah, Firefox still has RDF code
  177. # [20:44] <tantek_> thus I'm prioritizing accordingly
  178. # [20:44] <tantek_> Ms2ger - and how can we reduce our code footprint accordingly?
  179. # [20:45] <timeless> Ms2ger: can i get you to finish that thing? :)
  180. # [20:45] * timeless will deal w/ it otherwise this week
  181. # [20:45] <Ms2ger> Which?
  182. # [20:45] <tantek_> timeless, I sympathize with your statement "doesn't have enough time to do that"
  183. # [20:46] <tantek_> and similarly, I decided I don't have the time to work on standards efforts that are not based in research, since such efforts have a far higher failure rate.
  184. # [20:46] * timeless nods
  185. # [20:46] <timeless> the problem i see is that just because a standard doesn't win
  186. # [20:47] <timeless> ... doesn't mean it doesn't actually *hurt* the world for years
  187. # [20:47] <tantek_> on the contrary, sometimes *bad* standards make the world hurt for *longer*
  188. # [20:47] <tantek_> because they timesuck the folks that would work on a good standard
  189. # [20:47] <timeless> you're taking the approach of assuming that ignoring things that will fail is a good approach to time sinks
  190. # [20:47] <tantek_> timeless - yes, that approach has worked
  191. # [20:47] <tantek_> c.f. XML, RDF
  192. # [20:47] <tantek_> vs. HTML5, microformats
  193. # [20:48] <timeless> whereas i'm taking the approach that it's better to try to direct things that might not be wonderful so that they're less harmful
  194. # [20:48] <timeless> xml has caused us significant pain for over a decade
  195. # [20:48] <tantek_> in the world of standards, it's far more efficient to ignore the things you think will fail rather than waste your time arguing about them.
  196. # [20:48] <timeless> ignoring xml didn't help that
  197. # [20:48] <timeless> we're still paying for it!
  198. # [20:48] <tantek_> timeless, I spent *years* trying to direct XML to be less harmful
  199. # [20:48] <tantek_> specifically, 1999-2003
  200. # [20:49] <tantek_> so I learned that lesson
  201. # [20:49] <tantek_> my time would have been better spent working on alternatives
  202. # [20:50] <tantek_> and btw, most (all?) of the folks who contributed to HTML5, microformats *did* first try to make XML work
  203. # [20:50] <tantek_> we probably lost about 5 years doing so
  204. # [20:50] <tantek_> from 1999-2004
  205. # [20:51] <gsnedders> To be fair, RDF is a success as a standard... just not on the web.
  206. # [20:51] <timeless> if you count RSS/Atom as an RDF derivative, it's pretty successful on the web too
  207. # [20:51] <tantek_> gsnedders - who cares about non-web standards when web-standards will eclipse them?
  208. # [20:52] <timeless> although a former colleague of mine recently dissed rss-atom as an early adopter price w/ facebook being the real thing
  209. # [20:52] <gsnedders> Only RSS 1.0 is, RSS 0.9/RSS2 aren't. Atom certainly isn't.
  210. # [20:52] * tantek_ guesses that most folks working on what they call "web intents" weren't working on web standards in the 1999-2004 era
  211. # [20:52] <tantek_> and thus need to relearn those lessons for themselves
  212. # [20:52] <gsnedders> tantek_: Web standards aren't all too useful if you want a data exchange format for component design for an aircraft, though.
  213. # [20:53] <tantek_> gsnedders - citation required :P or are you an expert on "component design for an aircraft"
  214. # [20:53] <tantek_> ?
  215. # [20:53] <gsnedders> To be fair, RDF hasn't sucked in that much time of web people --- it's just sucked in time of people with an interest in it, mostly, so it's not been too bad.
  216. # [20:53] <gsnedders> tantek_: "what chaals told me at the Opera summer party" :)
  217. # [20:53] <tantek_> gsnedders so you're citing non-expert hearsay, got it.
  218. # [20:54] <tantek_> timeless, in practice RSS succeeded (somewhat) as tag soup.
  219. # [20:54] <tantek_> good luck parsing any RSS as valid RDF or even XML.
  220. # [20:54] <tantek_> you might have a what .01% success rate?
  221. # [20:55] <tantek_> similarly Atom and XML
  222. # [20:55] <timeless> well
  223. # [20:55] * timeless ponders
  224. # [20:55] <tantek_> and frankly, sidefiles as a whole have failed
  225. # [20:55] <timeless> .jpg?
  226. # [20:55] <gsnedders> tantek_: In my experience Atom tends to be XML.
  227. # [20:56] <tantek_> timeless, sidefiles = duplicate of content in the HTML
  228. # [20:56] <gsnedders> And the situation with RSS has improved over the past five years.
  229. # [20:56] <gsnedders> (No idea about treating RSS 1.0 as RDF, though)
  230. # [20:56] <tantek_> even the most well adopted, RSS/Atom, is *often* out of sync with the *visible* HTML page(s) they represent
  231. # [20:57] <tantek_> at Technorati, parsing 10s of millions of blogs/feeds, we had good data on this
  232. # [20:57] <tantek_> error / out-of-date / bad-data rates of RSS/Atom were about 30-40% compared to their respective HTML
  233. # [20:57] <tantek_> sidefiles, as a DRY violation, are a recipe for bad data quality
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  235. # [21:06] <timeless> i think the main reason for them was bandwidth/parsing cost
  236. # [21:07] <timeless> content providers and consumers paid too much when all that was needed was the content (or index) subset
  237. # [21:09] <timeless> some groups still complain about those costs today in mobile land
  238. # [21:09] * timeless is still seeing them
  239. # [21:09] <timeless> most of the groups involved are evil/stupid/the cause
  240. # [21:09] <timeless> but they're still complaining ..
  241. # [21:10] <tantek_> nah - such providers have no problems sending bloated JS libs to clients
  242. # [21:11] <tantek_> oh, and re-using HTML = better web server cache re-use
  243. # [21:11] <timeless> so...
  244. # [21:11] * timeless ponders
  245. # [21:12] <timeless> brb
  246. # [21:14] <timeless> https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=18260
  247. # [21:14] <timeless> or specifically http://cameinonsaturdays.com/
  248. # [21:15] <timeless> this provider is amusingly annoying
  249. # [21:15] <timeless> it has lots of text content, but no archive
  250. # [21:16] <timeless> oh, and it has stuff that no one should care about (as mentioned in one of the articles you linked to)
  251. # [21:20] <tantek_> like style="mso-spacerun: yes"
  252. # [21:20] <tantek_> or
  253. # [21:20] <tantek_> <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
  254. # [21:20] <timeless> right, trust me, you'd be much happier reading this content in an rss reader if you could :)
  255. # [21:21] <tantek_> I think things like readability.com are the future
  256. # [21:21] <tantek_> RSS readership usage is dropping like a rock
  257. # [21:21] <timeless> why haven't i heard of that before?
  258. # [21:21] <timeless> yeah, my friend argued that facebook was killing rss
  259. # [21:22] <timeless> he's probably right
  260. # [21:22] <tantek_> timeless - not sure, readability.com links are prominently featured on zeldman.com, dashes.com etc.
  261. # [21:22] <tantek_> you know, the things web designers read every day :P
  262. # [21:22] <timeless> hrm...
  263. # [21:22] <timeless> i'm not a web designer
  264. # [21:22] <tantek_> I think Twitter has killed RSS reader usage
  265. # [21:22] <tantek_> or rather "people that build websites"
  266. # [21:22] <timeless> is twitter like digg/reddit for the masses?
  267. # [21:22] <tantek_> twitter is killing RSS reader usage because:
  268. # [21:23] * timeless thought twitter was a way to waste time w/o getting any content
  269. # [21:23] <tantek_> a) twitter UI is much better than RSS reader UI
  270. # [21:23] <tantek_> b) blogs / media / brands post their blog posts to their Twitter
  271. # [21:23] <tantek_> so no need to use their RSS feeds any more
  272. # [21:23] <timeless> ignoring the people who use twitter to broadcast wwii and friends, i didn't think there was any content in it
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  274. # [21:28] <timeless> grr
  275. # [21:28] <timeless> readability.com requires an account?
  276. # [21:32] <timeless> oh, and they only allow access to 50 articles...
  277. # [21:32] <timeless> cute, well, at least they have a business model
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  282. # [22:10] * Quits: Dashiva (noone@84.72.45.52) (Ping timeout)
  283. # [22:10] * Dashimon is now known as Dashiva
  284. # [22:17] * Joins: timeless (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  285. # [22:20] * Quits: timeless (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  286. # [22:20] * Quits: smaug (chatzilla@85.78.35.15) (Ping timeout)
  287. # [22:27] * Quits: davidb (davidb@66.207.208.98) (Quit: davidb)
  288. # [22:42] * Joins: timeless (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  289. # [22:54] * Quits: sicking (chatzilla@98.210.155.80) (Ping timeout)
  290. # [22:56] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  291. # [23:28] * timeless ponders
  292. # [23:30] * Joins: sicking (chatzilla@159.63.23.38)
  293. # [23:37] * Quits: miketaylr (miketaylr@76.229.242.92) (Quit: miketaylr)
  294. # [23:39] * Quits: karl (karlcow@128.30.54.58) (Quit: Freedom - to walk free and own no superior.)
  295. # Session Close: Tue Dec 13 00:00:00 2011

The end :)