/irc-logs / w3c / #webapps / 2012-05-01 / end

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# Session Start: Tue May 01 00:00:00 2012
# Session Ident: #webapps
# [00:06] <Hixie> ArtB: ^
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# [04:11] <ArtB> Hixie, those are good questions re Workers and the other CRs (Storage, Sockets and Messaging).
# [04:13] <ArtB> One of my expectations is no features will be added to the version of the spec that was published as a CR
# [04:13] <ArtB> I think the WG shares that expectation
# [04:13] <ArtB> but not positive ;-)
# [04:15] <ArtB> Perhaps it would be good to discuss your questions on the list
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# [04:16] <ArtB> It could also be a topic for WebApps' f2f meeting this week
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# [04:18] <ArtB> Hixie, I proposed agenda topics for testing and interop related to those 4 CRs <http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/May2012F2FMeeting#Potential_Topics> so adding the questions about how to handle the leading edge version and the stable version makes sense to me.
# [04:18] <ArtB> In fact, I had expected that topic to come up
# [04:19] <ArtB> So, assuming the group agrees to add those topics to the agenda, if you are in IRC, perhaps you can join us then
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# [18:22] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-irc
# [18:23] <ArtB> Chair: Art, Charles
# [18:23] * Joins: anne (annevk@205.248.100.252)
# [18:23] <ArtB> Scribe: Josh_Soref
# [18:23] <ArtB> ScribeNick: timeless
# [18:23] <ArtB> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/May2012F2FMeeting
# [18:24] <ArtB> Meeting: WebApps WG f2f Meeting
# [18:24] <ArtB> Present: Art_Barstow, Charles_McCathieNevile, Josh_Soref
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# [18:26] * ArtB asks everyone to please: Present+ FirstName_FamilyName e.g Present+ Art_Barstow
# [18:26] <dglazkov> Present+ Dimitri_Glazkov
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# [18:26] <Arnaud> Present+ Arnaud_Braud
# [18:26] <aklein> Present+ Adam_Klein
# [18:26] <timeless> scribe: timeless
# [18:26] <shan> Present+ Soonbo_Han
# [18:26] * ArtB changes topic to 'WebApps f2f Meeting Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/May2012F2FMeeting'
# [18:27] <timeless> present+ Josh_Soref
# [18:27] <ArtB> Present+ Mike_Smith
# [18:27] <timeless> s/scribe: timeless//
# [18:27] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [18:27] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [18:27] <PaulKinlan> Present+ Paul_Kinlan
# [18:27] <timeless> Zakim, who is on the call?
# [18:27] <Zakim> sorry, timeless, I don't know what conference this is
# [18:27] <Zakim> On IRC I see PaulKinlan, aklein, dglazkov, MikeSmith, shan, anne, RRSAgent, Zakim, ArtB, tantek, Arnaud, plh, dveditz, rogerk, davidb, Dashiva, Lachy, karl, heycam|away, kennyluck,
# [18:27] <Zakim> ... gavin, trackbot, mounir, jgraham, logbot, scottmg, krijnh, decadance, ed, lgombos, rektide, paul___irish, hober, gsnedders, Hixie, timeless, dom
# [18:28] <PaulKinlan> Present+ PaulKinlan
# [18:28] * Joins: chaals (chaals@205.248.100.252)
# [18:28] <chaals> zakim, this is RWC
# [18:28] <Zakim> sorry, chaals, I do not see a conference named 'RWC' in progress or scheduled at this time
# [18:28] * Joins: Travis (cdf86651@128.30.52.43)
# [18:28] <chaals> zakim, this is web
# [18:28] <Zakim> chaals, I see IA_WebApps(F2F)12:00PM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be web".
# [18:29] <chaals> zakim, this is IA_Webapps
# [18:29] <Zakim> chaals, I see IA_WebApps(F2F)12:00PM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be IA_Webapps".
# [18:29] <chaals> zakim, this will be IA_Webapps
# [18:29] <Zakim> ok, chaals; I see IA_WebApps(F2F)12:00PM scheduled to start 21 minutes ago
# [18:29] * Joins: Russell_Berkoff (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [18:30] <plh> Present+ plh
# [18:30] <Travis> Present+ Travis_Leithead
# [18:30] <MikeSmith> present+ MikeSmith
# [18:30] <chaals> zakim, who is here?
# [18:30] <Zakim> IA_WebApps(F2F)12:00PM has not yet started, chaals
# [18:30] <Zakim> On IRC I see Russell_Berkoff, Travis, chaals, PaulKinlan, aklein, dglazkov, MikeSmith, shan, anne, RRSAgent, Zakim, ArtB, tantek, Arnaud, plh, dveditz, rogerk, davidb, Dashiva,
# [18:30] <Zakim> ... Lachy, karl, heycam|away, kennyluck, gavin, trackbot, mounir, jgraham, logbot, scottmg, krijnh, decadance, ed, lgombos, rektide, paul___irish, hober, gsnedders, Hixie,
# [18:30] * Joins: rniwa (rniwa@205.248.100.252)
# [18:30] <Zakim> ... timeless, dom
# [18:30] <anne> Present+ anne
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# [18:30] <anne> Present+ odinho
# [18:30] <timeless> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [18:30] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, timeless
# [18:31] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [18:31] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [18:31] <glenn> Present+ glenn
# [18:31] * Joins: krisk (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [18:31] * plh heard Paul said free ipad as well
# [18:31] * Joins: tross (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [18:31] <timeless> Topic: Welcome and Agenda
# [18:31] * tantek and hober are on the 85 to 101 junction and should be there relatively shortly.
# [18:31] * Joins: rafaelw (u4459@88.198.6.68)
# [18:31] <Russell_Berkoff> Present+ Russell_Berkoff(Samsung)
# [18:32] <rafaelw> Present+ Rafael_Weinstein
# [18:32] <tross> Present+ Tony Ross
# [18:32] <krisk> Present+ Kris Krueger (krisk)
# [18:33] <timeless> ArtB: When you do introductions, please indicate if you are not a WG member
# [18:33] <timeless> plh: as the charter has been reupped, most people are not WG members
# [18:33] * Joins: ericu (ericu@205.248.100.252)
# [18:33] <timeless> chaals: if you were a WG member and haven't reupped, please nag your AC rep
# [18:33] <ericu> Present+ EricU
# [18:33] <timeless> ArtB: Josh_Soref is a fantastic scribe, he works for RIM
# [18:34] <timeless> ... RIM is not a member
# [18:34] <plh> --> http://www.w3.org/2004/01/pp-impl/42538/status WG participation status
# [18:34] <timeless> ... when you speak for the first time, please introduce yourself
# [18:34] * Joins: scheib (u4467@88.198.6.68)
# [18:34] <timeless> chaals: when Josh_Soref says stop, you have to stop, because you'll be lost otherwise
# [18:34] <scheib> Present+ Vincent_Scheib
# [18:34] <timeless> chaals: I'm chaals, Opera, I'm a chair
# [18:34] <timeless> ArtB: I'm ArtB, from Nokia, I'm a chair
# [18:35] <timeless> PaulKinlan: I'm PaulKinlan from Google, observer
# [18:35] <timeless> ericu: I'm ericu from Google, I'm a member
# [18:35] <timeless> glenn: glenn, Cox, member
# [18:35] <chaals> s/observer/registered as observer, now member/
# [18:35] * plh Dan Druta, AT&T
# [18:36] <timeless> Dan_Druta: Dan Druta, AT&T, member
# [18:36] * plh Arnaud Braud, France Telecom
# [18:36] <timeless> Arnaud: Arnaud Braud, France Telecom
# [18:36] * plh Bryan Sullivan, AT&T
# [18:36] <timeless> Bryan: Bryan Sullivan, AT&T, member
# [18:36] <timeless> s/Telecom/Telecom, member/
# [18:36] * Joins: bryan (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [18:36] * plh Russell Berkoff, Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd. (observer)
# [18:37] <timeless> Russell_Berkoff: Russell Berkoff, Samsung, Observer
# [18:37] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [18:37] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
# [18:37] <timeless> aklein: Adam Klein, Google, Observer
# [18:37] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make log Public
# [18:37] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, ArtB
# [18:37] <timeless> rafaelw: Rafael Weinstein, Google, Observer
# [18:37] <timeless> tross: Tony Ross, Microsoft, Member
# [18:37] <timeless> rniwa: Ryosuke Niwa, Google, Member
# [18:38] <timeless> MikeSmith: Mike Smith, W3C Team, Member
# [18:38] <bryan> present+ Bryan_Sullivan
# [18:38] * Joins: rniwa_ (rniwa@216.239.45.130)
# [18:38] <timeless> ... the first one to rejoin
# [18:38] <timeless> paulc: Paul Cotton, Microsoft, Chair of HTML WG, your host
# [18:38] <timeless> anne: Anne, Opera, Member
# [18:38] * chaals odinho
# [18:39] * plh Odin Hørthe Omdal, Opera Software
# [18:39] <timeless> ordinho: Odin Horthe Omdal, Opera, Member
# [18:39] <timeless> Travis: Travis Leithead, Microsoft, Member
# [18:39] * shan Soonbo Han, LG Electronics
# [18:39] * Joins: DanD (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [18:39] <timeless> shan: Soonbo Han, LG Electronics, just joined [and was dropped by recharter]
# [18:40] <timeless> ArtB: there's an Action for someone to bug ACs for rejoins
# [18:40] <chaals> ACTION: chaals to bug AC reps of ex-members to re-join after new charter
# [18:40] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [18:40] * RRSAgent records action 1
# [18:40] <trackbot> Created ACTION-643 - Bug AC reps of ex-members to re-join after new charter [on Charles McCathieNevile - due 2012-05-08].
# [18:40] <timeless> magnus: Magnus Olsson, Ericsson, Member (need to rejoin)
# [18:40] <timeless> krisk: Kris K, Microsoft, Member
# [18:40] * chaals wonders how to get the historical data on who *was* a member
# [18:40] * Joins: magnus (magnus@205.248.100.252)
# [18:40] <timeless> plh: Philipe Le Hegaret, W3C Team, Microsoft
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# [18:41] * rniwa_ is now known as rniwa
# [18:41] <timeless> scheib: Vincent Scheib, Google, Member
# [18:41] <plh> s/, Microsoft/, Member/
# [18:41] <timeless> dglazkov: Dimitri Glazkov, Google, Member
# [18:41] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [18:41] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [18:42] <MikeSmith> Zakim, who's on the phone?
# [18:42] <Zakim> IA_WebApps(F2F)12:00PM has not yet started, MikeSmith
# [18:42] <Zakim> On IRC I see magnus, DanD, rniwa, bryan, scheib, ericu, rafaelw, tross, krisk, glenn, Russell_Berkoff, Travis, chaals, PaulKinlan, aklein, dglazkov, MikeSmith, shan, anne,
# [18:42] <Zakim> ... RRSAgent, Zakim, ArtB, tantek, Arnaud, plh, dveditz, rogerk, davidb, Dashiva, Lachy, karl, heycam|away, kennyluck, gavin, trackbot, mounir, jgraham, logbot, scottmg, krijnh,
# [18:42] <Zakim> ... decadance, ed, lgombos, rektide, paul___irish, hober, gsnedders, Hixie, timeless, dom
# [18:42] * ArtB Present+ FirstName_LastName
# [18:42] <MikeSmith> Zakim, start meeting
# [18:42] <Zakim> I don't understand 'start meeting', MikeSmith
# [18:42] * dglazkov says good morning, WebApps!
# [18:42] <MikeSmith> Zakim, list
# [18:42] <Zakim> I see Team_(hcls)14:28Z, SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM active
# [18:42] <Zakim> also scheduled at this time are Team_(a11y-bugs)16:00Z, SW_RIF()11:00AM, Team_(aapi)16:03Z, XML_ET-TF()11:00AM, IA_WebApps(F2F)12:00PM
# [18:42] <glenn> Present+ Glenn_Adams (glenn)
# [18:42] <timeless> s/Kris Krueger (krisk)/Kris_Krueger_(krisk)/
# [18:42] <DanD> Present+ Dan_Druta
# [18:42] <MikeSmith> trackbot, start meeting
# [18:42] * trackbot is preparing a teleconference
# [18:42] <timeless> s/Glenn_Adams (glenn)/Glenn_Adams_(glenn)/
# [18:42] <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [18:42] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot
# [18:42] <trackbot> Zakim, this will be DOM3
# [18:42] <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
# [18:42] <trackbot> Meeting: Web Applications Working Group Teleconference
# [18:42] <trackbot> Date: 01 May 2012
# [18:43] <magnus> present Magnus_Olsson (magnus)
# [18:43] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [18:43] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [18:43] <timeless> Topic: Agenda
# [18:43] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [18:43] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [18:43] * anne ... blame the user, not the tool!
# [18:43] <timeless> ArtB: We always preallocate an item or two
# [18:43] <timeless> ... and then figure out the rest as we meet
# [18:43] <timeless> ... we have a couple of topics
# [18:43] * anne relevant comic http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2597
# [18:43] <timeless> ... we had penciled Intents for 1-2pm
# [18:43] <timeless> ... James was going to manage that
# [18:44] * Quits: Travis (cdf86651@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC)
# [18:44] <timeless> s/James/James_Hawkins/
# [18:44] <timeless> paulc: The preallocated name badges were to help the secretary
# [18:44] * Joins: Travis (cdf86651@128.30.52.43)
# [18:44] <magnus> present+ Magnus_Olsson
# [18:44] <timeless> ... just register at the desk
# [18:44] <timeless> ... if you have problems, let me know
# [18:45] <timeless> ArtB: Here is the list of potential topics
# [18:45] <timeless> ... most of them I added
# [18:45] <timeless> ... (in alphabetical order)
# [18:45] <timeless> ... and then dglazkov added components
# [18:45] <timeless> ... and bryan added server sent events
# [18:45] <anne> http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/May2012F2FMeeting
# [18:45] <anne> ^^ meeting agenda
# [18:45] <MikeSmith> agenda: http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/May2012F2FMeeting
# [18:45] <timeless> ArtB: WebAppsSec has CORS on its agenda for tomorrow morning
# [18:46] <timeless> ... they had allocated half an hour for LC CORS
# [18:46] * Joins: Velmont (Velmont@193.157.115.211)
# [18:46] <MikeSmith> Jonas Sicking has entered the fray
# [18:46] <timeless> ... 9:45-10:15
# [18:46] <timeless> present+ Jonas_Sicking
# [18:46] <timeless> chaals: How many people are interested in CORS?
# [18:46] <timeless> [ Quite a few hands rise ]
# [18:46] <timeless> chaals: does anyone object to bringing them in here?
# [18:47] <timeless> [ No objections ]
# [18:47] * Quits: tantek (tantek@66.87.7.184) (Quit: tantek)
# [18:47] <timeless> ACTION ArtB to talk to WebAppsSec about a joint slot
# [18:47] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [18:47] * Velmont is now known as odinho
# [18:47] <trackbot> Created ACTION-644 - Talk to WebAppsSec about a joint slot [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-05-08].
# [18:47] <timeless> s/slot/slot for CORS LC/
# [18:47] <timeless> chaals: Welcome sicking
# [18:47] <timeless> sicking: Jonas_Sicking, I'm the late jonas sicking, Mozilla. Not The Late Jonas Sicking, just late
# [18:48] <timeless> chaals: Any other topics not in the wiki?
# [18:48] <timeless> scheib: I spoke briefly with ArtB
# [18:48] <timeless> ... I'm the editor of the Pointer Block specification
# [18:48] <timeless> ... i'm new to editing
# [18:48] <timeless> ... it's just been added to the charter
# [18:48] <timeless> q+ chaals
# [18:48] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
# [18:48] <dglazkov> s/Pointer Block/Pointer Lock/
# [18:48] <timeless> ArtB: I think it would be useful for new specs that have been added
# [18:49] <timeless> ... that people are starting to implement
# [18:49] <timeless> chaals: I might put looking at the Charter/Schedule/New Specs
# [18:49] <timeless> ... either at the beginning. or at the end
# [18:49] <timeless> ... any preference?
# [18:49] <timeless> anne: it might be good to put them at the beginning
# [18:50] <timeless> bryan: I have a conflict for 11-1
# [18:50] <odinho> (my PC suddenly working after taking it apart and putting it together again)
# [18:50] <timeless> chaals: we won't put push there
# [18:50] <timeless> s/(my PC suddenly working after taking it apart and putting it together again)//
# [18:50] <timeless> chaals: going around the room
# [18:50] <MikeSmith> list of specs is at http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/PubStatus#API_Specifications
# [18:50] <timeless> ... we've got less gaps here (today), than there (tomorrow)
# [18:50] <timeless> dglazkov: Shadow DOM, HTML Templates
# [18:51] <timeless> chaals: I'll put bryan (Push/SMS) to 2:30-3 (today)
# [18:51] <timeless> ... and Web Components for 11:15-12:30 (today)
# [18:51] <timeless> dglazkov: my items is procedural ... gauging temperature
# [18:51] <timeless> chaals: IndexedDB
# [18:52] <timeless> ericu: we have a request from someone from Google who can't be here today
# [18:52] <timeless> ... can it be tomorrow?
# [18:52] <timeless> chaals: Yes we can
# [18:52] <timeless> ArtB: i'd like a slot for Hixie 's 4 CRs
# [18:52] <timeless> ... where we are, can we get someone to fill in the gaps
# [18:52] <timeless> ... how do we manage future work
# [18:52] * Joins: sicking (chatzilla@205.248.100.252)
# [18:52] <timeless> ... v. getting to rec
# [18:52] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [18:52] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [18:53] <timeless> chaals: "Hixie's hand-me-downs" 11:30-12:30 (tomorrow)
# [18:53] <timeless> Travis: 10 minutes for DOM3 events/DOM4 from that slot?
# [18:53] <timeless> chaals: is that going to be short?
# [18:53] <timeless> anne: we had the longer one last time
# [18:53] <timeless> Travis: it should be short
# [18:53] <timeless> anne: we need 15 minutes for Full Screen
# [18:54] <timeless> ... ArtB mentioned that
# [18:54] <timeless> chaals: the Late Douglass Sheppers
# [18:54] <timeless> chaals: people who have not introduced yourselves
# [18:54] <timeless> ... please introduced yourselves
# [18:54] <ArtB> Present+ Doug_Schepers
# [18:54] <ArtB> Present+ Tantek_Celik
# [18:55] <timeless> shepazu: Doug Schepers, W3C Team Contact, Member
# [18:55] <ArtB> Present+ Ted_OConnor
# [18:55] * Joins: tantek (tantek@205.248.100.252)
# [18:55] <timeless> tantek: Tantek Celik, Mozilla, Observer
# [18:55] * Joins: gbillock (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [18:55] <ArtB> Present+ Jonas_Sicking
# [18:55] <timeless> ted: Ted O'Connor, Apple, Member
# [18:56] <timeless> s/Sheppers/Schepers/
# [18:56] <timeless> anne: Is the Stream API that's an extension to XHR going anywhere?
# [18:56] <timeless> ... is the editor here?
# [18:56] <hober> s/ted/hober/
# [18:57] <ArtB> Present+ Greg_Billock
# [18:57] <timeless> gbillock: Greg Billock, Google, Observer
# [18:57] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [18:57] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [18:57] <timeless> s/-->/->/
# [18:58] <timeless> MikeSmith: please put the IME API
# [18:58] <timeless> chaals: i'll try to leave space for breaks
# [18:58] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [18:58] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [18:58] <timeless> chaals: how many people have read the new charter?
# [18:58] <timeless> [ ~5 hands ]
# [18:58] <timeless> chaals: 4 of us were lying
# [18:59] <timeless> shepazu: I don't think chaals read it, and he wrote it
# [18:59] * Joins: mattkelly (mattwkelly@166.241.129.9)
# [18:59] <timeless> bryan: the link on the webapps page is to the old charter
# [18:59] <anne> charter: http://www.w3.org/2012/webapps/charter/
# [18:59] <timeless> Josh_Soref: the main webapps page is unusable
# [19:00] <timeless> bryan: the w3c pages don't work well on iPads
# [19:00] <timeless> shepazu: Action bryan to buy me an iPad
# [19:00] <timeless> chaals: Action bryan to buy everyone an iPad
# [19:00] <timeless> bryan: the style sheet is generally bad
# [19:01] <timeless> chaals: who's driving the screen?
# [19:01] <timeless> ArtB: I am
# [19:01] <timeless> [ ArtB projects PubStatus ]
# [19:01] * ArtB http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/PubStatus
# [19:02] * timeless -> http://url pretty description
# [19:02] * timeless => plh
# [19:02] <timeless> Topic: Charter/Pub Status
# [19:02] <MikeSmith> -> http://www.w3.org/2012/webapps/charter/ new WebApps charter
# [19:02] <timeless> ArtB: we have over 700 people subscribed to our list
# [19:02] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [19:02] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [19:02] <timeless> ... of those, only 30-40 people are really active
# [19:03] <timeless> ... i like to keep pub status accurate
# [19:03] <timeless> glenn: I have a comment to shepazu
# [19:03] <plh> -> http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/May2012F2FMeeting#Agenda_May_1 Agenda for today
# [19:03] * Quits: mattkelly (mattwkelly@166.241.129.9) (Ping timeout)
# [19:03] <timeless> ... it might be helpful to say XHR subsumes ....
# [19:03] <timeless> shepazu: can we make emmandations?
# [19:03] <timeless> plh: nope
# [19:03] * Joins: mattkelly (mattwkelly@166.154.0.248)
# [19:04] <timeless> chaals: CORS
# [19:04] <timeless> ... we'll look at this tomorrow
# [19:04] * tantek notes that the web apps wiki is not editable by observers. any chance of moving WebApps pages incrementally to the W3C wiki? http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/
# [19:04] <timeless> anne: I don't see how it's a plan
# [19:04] <timeless> [ the label for CORS says "LC Period ends 1-May-2012" ]
# [19:04] <timeless> anne: but the statement is accurate
# [19:04] <timeless> ... there have been no comments raised
# [19:05] <timeless> ... there was one "we should design this differently"
# [19:05] <timeless> ... there was a comment about making it more performant on mobiles
# [19:05] <timeless> ... that was related to caching
# [19:05] <timeless> chaals: do you expect a second version
# [19:05] <timeless> anne: if we tinker with caching, then we'd need a second version
# [19:05] <timeless> q?
# [19:05] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
# [19:06] * Quits: DanD (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
# [19:06] <timeless> anne: there's also From-Origin (the opposite of CORS)
# [19:06] * Joins: DanD (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [19:06] <chaals> q-
# [19:06] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:06] <timeless> anne: there are long term plans re: merging CORS + fetching
# [19:06] <timeless> shepazu: you should talk about that in the slot
# [19:06] <timeless> chaals: If you're speaking, you need to speak loud and to the center of the room
# [19:07] <timeless> anne: we can't fix all the bugs
# [19:07] <timeless> ArtB: so move to CR?
# [19:07] <timeless> anne: there have been no LC comments
# [19:07] * Joins: mattur (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [19:07] <timeless> chaals: we expect to move to CR in two weeks?
# [19:07] <timeless> chaals: Clipboard APIs and Events
# [19:07] <timeless> ... holvard stein is not here
# [19:07] <timeless> ... is anyone following that closely enough?
# [19:08] <timeless> [ no ]
# [19:08] <timeless> ArtB: do we know implementation status?
# [19:08] <tantek> One request for the new WebApps charter (starting July 1 2012 presumably) - please switch to using the W3C wiki (instead of webapps wg-only wiki) : http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/
# [19:08] <chaals> s/holvard/halvord/
# [19:08] <timeless> anne: there's implementations
# [19:08] <timeless> ... but they have differences
# [19:08] <MikeSmith> q+ to ask if somebody wants to give update about plans for Quoata API spec
# [19:08] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [19:08] <timeless> rniwa: depending on platforms, there are variations
# [19:09] * Joins: shepazu (shepazu@128.30.52.169)
# [19:09] <timeless> ... there are issues involving determining Same-Origin
# [19:09] <timeless> ... affecting what can/should be stripped
# [19:09] <timeless> ... it might be needed
# [19:09] <timeless> chaals: so that's work in progress
# [19:09] <timeless> anne: there's an attribute for secure usage?
# [19:09] <timeless> chaals: CORS - testing
# [19:09] * Quits: shepazu (shepazu@128.30.52.169) (Client exited)
# [19:09] * Joins: shepazu (shepazu@128.30.52.169)
# [19:09] <timeless> ... and test facilitator, and test suite?
# [19:10] <timeless> odinho: me
# [19:10] <timeless> chaals: what's the status of the test suite?
# [19:10] <timeless> odinho: for the test suite
# [19:10] <timeless> ... i've been reading through the tests that are there
# [19:10] <timeless> ... i've incorporated the things that are missing into Opera's Test Suite
# [19:10] <timeless> ... but i haven't gotten entirely through the WebKit tests
# [19:10] * plh is done updating http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/May2012F2FMeeting
# [19:10] <timeless> chaals: and that hasn't been sent back to the group
# [19:10] <timeless> krisk: tests that are submitted are a wide range
# [19:11] <timeless> ... we should go through them
# [19:11] <timeless> sicking: we have a couple of tests that are pretty big
# [19:11] <timeless> ... but they won't run anywhere else
# [19:11] <timeless> ... would you like us to submit those
# [19:11] <timeless> ... a lot of the tests are expressed as data
# [19:11] <timeless> ... you could write a new wrapper around it
# [19:11] <timeless> odinho: i've looked at it
# [19:12] <timeless> s/else/else (they use "yield")
# [19:12] <timeless> chaals: I'm trying to get a bird's eye view
# [19:12] <timeless> ... summary: odinho is looking at it others are working on it
# [19:12] <timeless> ... is there a test coordinator for Clipboard APIs
# [19:12] <timeless> rniwa: I don't think so
# [19:12] <timeless> ... how would we test it?
# [19:12] <plh> I think it would be good for mozilla to submit what they have, and we figure out in the longer run how to modify them
# [19:13] <timeless> ... it can't be from the web page
# [19:13] <timeless> ... so it has to be manual
# [19:13] <timeless> shepazu: so you define manual tests
# [19:13] <timeless> anne: there's a WATIA framework
# [19:13] * timeless ??
# [19:13] <anne> Watir: http://watir.com/
# [19:13] <timeless> chaals: don't sign up to do something if you don't have the bandwidth for it
# [19:13] <timeless> s/WATIA/WATIR/
# [19:14] <timeless> s|Watir: http://watir.com/|-> http://watir.com/ Watir|
# [19:14] <timeless> chaals: DOM4
# [19:14] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [19:14] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [19:14] <timeless> anne: the Plan statement (for DOM4) isn't quite correct
# [19:14] <timeless> ... at some point we'll add new features
# [19:14] <timeless> ... better event registration
# [19:14] * Quits: mattkelly (mattwkelly@166.154.0.248) (Ping timeout)
# [19:14] <timeless> ... extending ClassList
# [19:15] <timeless> ... varadic? arguments
# [19:15] <timeless> chaals: do we push DOM4 through and start DOM5
# [19:15] <timeless> ... what's the rush to get DOM4 finished
# [19:15] * plh wonders how classList and cssElementList relate
# [19:15] <plh> q+
# [19:15] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, plh on the speaker queue
# [19:15] <timeless> anne: you could push DOM4 through and work on DOM5
# [19:15] <timeless> ack MikeSmith
# [19:15] <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to ask if somebody wants to give update about plans for Quoata API spec
# [19:15] * Zakim sees plh on the speaker queue
# [19:16] <timeless> s/Quoata/Quota/
# [19:16] <timeless> ... but we don't have a way to manage forks (maintaining DOM4 and working on DOM5)
# [19:16] <timeless> plh: we can't link to an unstable thing from a spec
# [19:16] * Joins: mattkelly (mattwkelly@166.241.129.9)
# [19:17] <timeless> chaals: that discussion is about w3c process
# [19:17] <timeless> ... that
# [19:17] * Joins: R_Berkoff (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [19:17] <timeless> s/that/that's out of scope for this WG/
# [19:17] <timeless> anne: i know there are people that want it
# [19:17] <timeless> ... but i have limited bandwidth
# [19:17] <timeless> ... we could publish dom4 now
# [19:17] <timeless> ... it's way better than dom3
# [19:17] <timeless> chaals: Adrian Bateman, Microsoft, Member
# [19:17] <ArtB> Present+ Adrian_Bateman
# [19:17] <timeless> present+ Adrian_Bateman
# [19:18] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [19:18] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [19:18] <timeless> Travis: only the WebPerf WG has requested to link to DOM4
# [19:18] <timeless> plh: a bunch of specs want to
# [19:18] <timeless> rniwa: there's demand to deprecate DOM Mutation events (DOM3)
# [19:18] <timeless> ... i think mozilla is planning to unprefix the replacement
# [19:19] <timeless> chaals: it sounds like it would be good for the chairs to find someone with the bandwidth to branch of DOM4 and stabalize it
# [19:19] <timeless> ... is that someone standing up to volunteer?
# [19:19] <timeless> ... thank you very much Tantek
# [19:19] <timeless> ACTION ArtB to find someone to branch DOM4 and publish
# [19:19] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [19:19] <trackbot> Created ACTION-645 - Find someone to branch DOM4 and publish [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-05-08].
# [19:20] <timeless> anne: if you make the CR reqs loose, we can do it fairly quickly
# [19:20] <timeless> ArtB: is anyone interested in helping with that task?
# [19:20] <timeless> [ Silence ]
# [19:20] <timeless> chaals: don't worry anne, we'll come back and ask you again
# [19:20] <timeless> ... until you come up with the right answer, which is yes
# [19:20] <timeless> Travis: ArtB, please show PubStatus wiki page
# [19:21] <timeless> [ ArtB captures need to fork DOM4 for stable+publishing ]
# [19:21] <anne> http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/PubStatus
# [19:21] <anne> ^^ page on screen
# [19:21] * Joins: adrianba (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [19:21] <timeless> s|http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/PubStatus|-> http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/PubStatus WebApps Pub Status (on screen)|
# [19:21] <timeless> s/^^ page on screen//
# [19:22] <timeless> Travis: bugzilla database is the prime spot for tracking (DOM3 Events)
# [19:22] <timeless> ... i think we should issue another LCWD
# [19:22] <timeless> chaals: DOM Parsing + Serialization
# [19:22] <timeless> anne: the HTML WG might or might not work on it
# [19:22] <timeless> chaals: it's in our charter
# [19:22] <timeless> paulc: the CfC for HTMLWG:ISSUE-198 closes today
# [19:23] <timeless> anne: in particular, if it closes, it will be forked from the html
# [19:23] <timeless> ... and someone from microsoft will publish it
# [19:23] <timeless> chaals: despite the fact that it's in our charter, we don't know if it will happen in our group
# [19:23] <timeless> ... is that right paulc?
# [19:23] <timeless> ... my sense was that we would do it in our group
# [19:23] <timeless> anne: no, they wanted it in the html wg
# [19:23] <timeless> paulc: i'd have to do the research
# [19:24] <timeless> ... i don't think HTMLWG:issue-198 speaks to where it would be done
# [19:24] <timeless> ACTION chaals to talk to paulc about where Parsing+Serialization work is done
# [19:24] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [19:24] <trackbot> Created ACTION-646 - Talk to paulc about where Parsing+Serialization work is done [on Charles McCathieNevile - due 2012-05-08].
# [19:24] <timeless> chaals: Element Traversal is DONE
# [19:24] <timeless> ... File API
# [19:25] <timeless> sicking: the pub status for File API looks right
# [19:25] <timeless> ... we can possibly do it in Q2
# [19:25] <timeless> chaals: do we expect Q3
# [19:25] <timeless> ... let's say we expect it in Q3
# [19:25] <timeless> ... directories and systems
# [19:25] <timeless> ericu: that's all correct
# [19:25] <timeless> chaals: From-Origin Header
# [19:25] <timeless> anne: I don't think there's been much uptake
# [19:25] <timeless> ... drop it, i guess
# [19:25] <timeless> ... i've addressed all the comments
# [19:25] <timeless> ... there haven't been other comments
# [19:26] <timeless> ... I don't think anyone implemented it
# [19:26] <timeless> ... the idea was to prevent people from using CORS in places for which it wasn't quite intended
# [19:26] <timeless> ... but they started doing that anyway
# [19:26] <timeless> chaals: so that has no one to take it forward
# [19:26] <timeless> ... does anyone want it?
# [19:26] <timeless> ... it's up for grabs
# [19:26] <timeless> anne: i'm happy to continue editing it
# [19:27] <timeless> ... but if no one is going to implement it, then there's not much point
# [19:27] <timeless> chaals: let's start a CfC to publish it as a note
# [19:27] <timeless> ... if that doesn't shake anyone out, then park it as a note
# [19:27] <ArtB> ACTION: Art start a CfC to stop work on From-Origin spec
# [19:27] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [19:27] * RRSAgent records action 2
# [19:27] <trackbot> Created ACTION-647 - Start a CfC to stop work on From-Origin spec [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-05-08].
# [19:27] <timeless> ACTION ArtB to start CfC to publish From-Origin as a note
# [19:27] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [19:27] <trackbot> Created ACTION-648 - Start CfC to publish From-Origin as a note [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-05-08].
# [19:27] <timeless> bryan: I understand technically what it was intended to do
# [19:28] <timeless> ... and i understand it was a good idea
# [19:28] <timeless> ... but i'd like to understand how CORS stands if we don't have From-Origin
# [19:28] <timeless> chaals: Full Screen
# [19:28] <plh> q+
# [19:28] * Zakim sees plh on the speaker queue
# [19:28] <timeless> ... do we have a test coordinator?
# [19:28] <timeless> anne: no
# [19:28] <timeless> chaals: ok, so we need one
# [19:28] <timeless> WonSuk: WonSuk Lee, Samsung, Member
# [19:29] <ArtB> Present+ Wonsuk_Lee
# [19:29] <timeless> ack plh
# [19:29] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:29] <timeless> plh: From-Origin is in the WebAppsSec Charter
# [19:29] <adrianba> q+
# [19:29] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [19:29] <timeless> ... so we should talk to them
# [19:29] <timeless> ArtB: i didn't think it was a joint item
# [19:30] <timeless> plh: we can talk to them tomorrow
# [19:30] <timeless> adrianba: Fullscreen...
# [19:30] <timeless> ... is it two specs?
# [19:30] <timeless> ... there's a CSS bit
# [19:30] <timeless> tantek: it will be managed together
# [19:30] <timeless> ArtB: how close is it to somewhere?
# [19:31] <ArtB> ACTION: Art start a CfC to publish a FPWD of Fullscreen spec; coordinate with CSS WG
# [19:31] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [19:31] * RRSAgent records action 3
# [19:31] <trackbot> Created ACTION-649 - Start a CfC to publish a FPWD of Fullscreen spec; coordinate with CSS WG [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-05-08].
# [19:31] <timeless> chaals: we expect a FPWD this Q
# [19:31] <timeless> ... Gamepad
# [19:31] <timeless> scheib: The Gamepad editor is Scott Brown, from Google
# [19:32] <timeless> ... the draft has been stable for the last little wihle
# [19:32] <timeless> s/wihle/while/
# [19:32] <timeless> ... chrome is behind a flag
# [19:32] <timeless> ... I believe firefox is soon to ship without a flag
# [19:32] <timeless> ... i don't see anything blocking
# [19:32] <timeless> plh: publish as LC?
# [19:32] <timeless> shepazu: FPLC?
# [19:32] <timeless> ... it's kind of funny
# [19:32] <timeless> chaals: you can do that
# [19:32] <timeless> ... full screen might do the same
# [19:32] <ArtB> ACTION: Art start CfC for FPWD + LCWD of Gamepad spec
# [19:33] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [19:33] * RRSAgent records action 4
# [19:33] <trackbot> Created ACTION-650 - Start CfC for FPWD + LCWD of Gamepad spec [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-05-08].
# [19:33] <scheib> s/Scott Brown/Scott Graham/
# [19:33] <timeless> shepazu: why don't we have a session to do them
# [19:33] * Joins: Wonsuk (wonsuk73@205.248.100.252)
# [19:33] <timeless> chaals: Indexed DB
# [19:33] <timeless> ... we have a test suite
# [19:33] <timeless> ... it's on the agenda
# [19:33] <timeless> ... anything to say?
# [19:33] <anne> fwiw, Gamepad is not ready for LC
# [19:33] <anne> at least https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/gamepad/raw-file/default/gamepad.html is not
# [19:34] <timeless> sicking: i don't think there's much to do
# [19:34] <timeless> chaals: IME?
# [19:34] <timeless> ... MikeSmith ?
# [19:34] <anne> e.g. GamepadEvent does not inherit from Event at the moment and does not define a constructor
# [19:34] <timeless> MikeSmith: do you need a Test Facilitator?
# [19:34] <timeless> chaals: yes, thanks
# [19:34] <timeless> MikeSmith: i'm happy to do it
# [19:34] <timeless> chaals: we need a FPWD
# [19:34] * Quits: ericu (ericu@205.248.100.252) (Ping timeout)
# [19:34] <ArtB> ACTION: Art start CfC to publish FPWD of IME spec
# [19:34] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [19:34] * RRSAgent records action 5
# [19:34] <trackbot> Created ACTION-651 - Start CfC to publish FPWD of IME spec [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-05-08].
# [19:35] <timeless> chaals: anyone following Java bindings for WebIDL?
# [19:35] <timeless> anne: i don't know anyone doing it
# [19:35] <timeless> chaals: i used to
# [19:35] <timeless> ... pointer lock?
# [19:35] <anne> s/anne:/travis:/
# [19:35] <timeless> scheib: I'm the editor
# [19:35] <timeless> chaals: do you have a test faciliator?
# [19:35] <timeless> scheib: i don't know
# [19:35] <timeless> chaals: it's someone who commits to getting test
# [19:35] <ArtB> ACTION: Art start CfC for Pointer spec
# [19:35] * RRSAgent records action 6
# [19:35] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [19:35] <timeless> s/test/tests/
# [19:35] <trackbot> Created ACTION-652 - Start CfC for Pointer spec [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-05-08].
# [19:36] <timeless> ... you can do it yourself
# [19:36] * Joins: komoroske (komoroske@216.239.45.4)
# [19:36] <timeless> scheib: i'll probably do it myself
# [19:36] <timeless> ... i'm not sure of the timeline
# [19:36] <timeless> chaals: Progress Events
# [19:36] <timeless> ... waiting on implementations
# [19:36] <timeless> anne: there's a test suite
# [19:36] * Quits: mattkelly (mattwkelly@166.241.129.9) (Ping timeout)
# [19:36] <timeless> ... Ms2ger wrote tests that end up testing WebIDL
# [19:36] <timeless> ... which people get wrong
# [19:37] <timeless> ... the test suite doesn't test dispatch
# [19:37] <timeless> ... just the interface
# [19:37] <timeless> chaals: status?
# [19:37] <timeless> anne: when is Opera going to pass the test suite?
# [19:37] * Joins: mattkelly (mattwkelly@173.252.71.2)
# [19:37] <timeless> chaals: Quota
# [19:38] <rniwa> kinuko yasuda
# [19:38] <timeless> MikeSmith: I thought Kinuko Yasuda was working on it
# [19:38] <timeless> s/kinuko yasuda//
# [19:38] <timeless> chaals: and that doesn't have a test facilitator
# [19:38] <timeless> ... looks like we need a lot of test facilitators
# [19:38] <timeless> ArtB: yeah, a lot of holes
# [19:38] <timeless> chaals: selectors
# [19:38] <timeless> ... it's waiting on me
# [19:39] <timeless> ... it's waiting on WebIDL
# [19:39] <timeless> ... as WebIDL is going to CR
# [19:39] <timeless> ... I think Selectors can go to PR
# [19:39] <timeless> ... the test facilitator should be me
# [19:39] <timeless> plh: we should have a link to the interop report
# [19:39] <timeless> ... expect an advancement to PR to Q2
# [19:39] * scheib wonders if FPWD is blocked by having a a test suite in existance
# [19:39] * timeless no
# [19:39] <timeless> ... then it blocks again until WebIDL moves forward
# [19:39] * plh nope, without a test suite, you can't move to PR
# [19:40] <timeless> s/... expect/chaals expect/
# [19:40] * Quits: R_Berkoff (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
# [19:40] <timeless> s/chaals/chaals:/
# [19:40] <timeless> chaals: Server Sent Events
# [19:40] <timeless> ArtB: we published a LC last week
# [19:40] <timeless> ... we have 3 weeks
# [19:40] * Quits: Russell_Berkoff (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
# [19:40] <timeless> ... i think there was a comment last week
# [19:40] <timeless> glenn: there was a comment about infinite reconnects
# [19:41] <timeless> chaals: we have comments
# [19:41] <timeless> ... i think everyone's had the same issue
# [19:41] <timeless> ArtB: the only tests i know of are Opera's
# [19:41] <timeless> ... can you submit them?
# [19:41] <timeless> odinho: yeah, we can
# [19:41] <timeless> chaals: Shadow DOM
# [19:42] <timeless> dglazkov: been working on spec
# [19:42] <timeless> ... we have a test suite
# [19:42] <timeless> ... dominic has been doing them
# [19:42] <timeless> ... the spec is fairly stable
# [19:42] <timeless> ... i was going to ask about moving it to WD
# [19:42] <timeless> chaals: the procedure for moving to FPWD
# [19:42] <timeless> ... or LC
# [19:42] <timeless> ... is: as an editor, you write to the chairs and say "i think we're ready"
# [19:42] * plh wonders if a w3c rec track 101 would be useful... before we change the process next year
# [19:43] <ArtB> ACTION: Art start a CfC to publish a FPWD of Shadow DOM
# [19:43] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [19:43] * RRSAgent records action 7
# [19:43] <trackbot> Created ACTION-653 - Start a CfC to publish a FPWD of Shadow DOM [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-05-08].
# [19:43] <timeless> ... we write to the group asking for CfC
# [19:43] * timeless => plh: yes
# [19:43] <timeless> ArtB: the thing about FPWD is that it starts a call for IP exclusions
# [19:43] <timeless> ... it's good for the feature set to be defined at a high level
# [19:43] <timeless> ... so the ip guys can look at that
# [19:43] <timeless> dglazkov: we're well past it
# [19:44] <timeless> chaals: in that case, we should [already] have a FPWD
# [19:44] <timeless> ... and we'll do that with you
# [19:44] <timeless> dglazkov: it's on the web site
# [19:44] <timeless> chaals: URL
# [19:44] <timeless> MikeSmith: looking at anne
# [19:44] <timeless> anne: I'm working on encodings
# [19:44] <dglazkov> s/on the web site/well pas that point/
# [19:44] <timeless> ... adam was editing, then mike
# [19:44] <timeless> s/pas that/past/that/
# [19:44] <timeless> ArtB: there's a warning from adam
# [19:45] * dglazkov doh.
# [19:45] * timeless don't worry
# [19:45] <timeless> MikeSmith: we need to look through the tests
# [19:45] <timeless> ... next month we can look at it
# [19:45] <timeless> ... we could publish a FPWD now
# [19:45] <timeless> ... I can put it together
# [19:45] <ArtB> ACTION: Art start a CfC for FPWD of URL spec (Mike to be lead Editor)
# [19:45] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [19:45] * RRSAgent records action 8
# [19:45] <trackbot> Created ACTION-654 - Start a CfC for FPWD of URL spec (Mike to be lead Editor) [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-05-08].
# [19:45] <timeless> chaals: FPWD needs to lay out what the thing does, which we're at
# [19:45] <timeless> chaals: Screen Orientation
# [19:46] <timeless> ... aka Screen Lock
# [19:46] <timeless> ... view something
# [19:46] <timeless> s/something/orientation/
# [19:46] <MikeSmith> s/Mike to be lead Editor/Mike to not be lead Editor but will help to drive it/g
# [19:46] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [19:46] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [19:46] <timeless> ArtB: Mounir is working on it
# [19:47] <timeless> [ plh, the Frenchman, properly pronounces his name, and asks how there could be a problem pronouncing it ]
# [19:47] <timeless> sicking: i don't know
# [19:47] <Wonsuk> Present+ Wonsuk_Lee
# [19:47] <timeless> ACTION ArtB to follow up with mounir about status of Screen Orientation
# [19:47] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [19:47] <trackbot> Created ACTION-655 - Follow up with mounir about status of Screen Orientation [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-05-08].
# [19:48] <timeless> chaals: WebIDL
# [19:48] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [19:48] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [19:48] * Quits: Lachy (Lachy@84.215.193.30) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
# [19:48] <timeless> chaals: Travis, look good?
# [19:48] <timeless> Travis: i am the test facilitator, but i haven't faciliateted
# [19:48] <timeless> s/faciliateted/facilitated/
# [19:48] <timeless> chaals: Web Intents
# [19:49] <timeless> gbillock: we probably need a test facilitator
# [19:49] <timeless> ... i'll sign up for that
# [19:49] <timeless> Travis: we need a FPWD
# [19:49] <timeless> gbillock: we'll talk about that this afternoon
# [19:49] <timeless> chaals: Web Messaging
# [19:49] <timeless> ArtB: in CR
# [19:49] <timeless> chaals: as of this morning
# [19:49] <timeless> ... that's PostMessage
# [19:50] <timeless> ArtB: according to caniuse.com, it has the most deployment
# [19:50] <timeless> chaals: but no tests
# [19:50] <timeless> shepazu: i don't think this is the right room to draw them from
# [19:50] * Joins: PaulKinl_ (PaulKinlan@216.239.45.130)
# [19:50] <ArtB> ACTION: barstow find a Test Facilitator for Web Messaging CR
# [19:50] * RRSAgent records action 9
# [19:50] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [19:50] <trackbot> Created ACTION-656 - Find a Test Facilitator for Web Messaging CR [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-05-08].
# [19:50] <timeless> chaals: Web Sockets
# [19:50] <timeless> ... we need to finish CR/Test suite
# [19:51] <timeless> krisk: MikeSmith helped get a server up
# [19:51] <timeless> ... i think MikeSmith 's going to update one module
# [19:51] <timeless> ... but it seems to be going along pretty well
# [19:51] <timeless> ... tests are pretty complete
# [19:51] <timeless> ArtB: so MikeSmith will update the module
# [19:51] <timeless> chaals: run the Test Suite, ask for PR
# [19:51] <timeless> ArtB: are you aware of implementations that pass everything?
# [19:51] <timeless> krisk: we're pretty close
# [19:52] <timeless> anne: there's a problem in Web Sockets relating to Surrogates
# [19:52] <timeless> anne: the spec requires throwing
# [19:52] <timeless> s/to/to Isolated/
# [19:52] <timeless> ... but preference is to replace
# [19:52] <timeless> ... i don't think it's tested by the test suite
# [19:52] * Quits: PaulKinlan (PaulKinlan@205.248.100.252) (Ping timeout)
# [19:52] * Quits: bryan (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
# [19:53] <timeless> glenn: there was discussion on isolated surrogates in public-script-coord
# [19:53] <timeless> anne: it's related, but it's not the same
# [19:53] <timeless> ... and it won't change
# [19:53] <timeless> anne: spec requires throwing
# [19:53] <timeless> ... most want not throwing
# [19:53] <timeless> adrianba: i thought we threw
# [19:53] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [19:53] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [19:54] <timeless> anne: for consistency with XHR which doesn't throw
# [19:54] <timeless> Josh_Soref: and web authors won't expect it to throw
# [19:54] <timeless> krisk: i think we should talk about this in our Hixie specs slot
# [19:54] <timeless> chaals: Web Storage
# [19:55] <timeless> ArtB: i think there's a late DOM4 change
# [19:55] <timeless> ... which blocks Web Storage
# [19:55] <timeless> ... does anyone implement that?
# [19:55] <timeless> krisk: I don't think anyone does yet
# [19:55] <timeless> ... it's definitely blocked on that
# [19:56] <timeless> ArtB: Yikes,
# [19:56] <timeless> krisk: we should talk about that in the Hixie specs slot
# [19:56] <timeless> chaals: Web Workers
# [19:56] <timeless> ArtB: CR today
# [19:56] <timeless> Travis: someone doing that should work on Web Messaging, since they're intertwined
# [19:56] <timeless> anne: Web Workers has feedback that may require going back to LC
# [19:56] <timeless> chaals: that's right
# [19:56] <timeless> ... into that slot too
# [19:56] <timeless> chaals: XBL2
# [19:57] <timeless> ... anyone love that enough to follow up?
# [19:57] <timeless> ArtB: wait for sicking
# [19:57] <timeless> chaals: my impression is that it's going to be parked
# [19:57] <timeless> anne: I think smaug is the only person who cares
# [19:57] <timeless> chaals: XHR
# [19:57] <timeless> anne: 2 does'nt existr
# [19:57] * Quits: karl (karlcow@128.30.54.58) (Quit: :tiuQ tiuq sah woclrak)
# [19:57] <timeless> s/does'nt existr/doesn't exist/
# [19:58] <timeless> anne: I wrote a test suite once
# [19:58] <timeless> ... but no one cared
# [19:58] <timeless> ... i tried to find someone, and odinho ...
# [19:58] <timeless> odinho: i had an intern
# [19:58] <timeless> chaals: making an intern isn't a good idea
# [19:58] <timeless> ... since they disappear
# [19:59] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [19:59] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [19:59] <timeless> chaals: we got a request from Mozilla when we rechartered
# [19:59] <timeless> ... to look at web app packaging
# [19:59] <timeless> ... sort of a JSON version of Widget Packaging
# [19:59] <timeless> ... and we have a potential draft starting point
# [19:59] <timeless> ... do you, tantek, have any further idea on its status?
# [19:59] <timeless> tantek: is this Manifests?
# [19:59] <timeless> chaals: yes
# [19:59] <timeless> shepazu: yes
# [19:59] <timeless> ... and do you know who that is?
# [20:00] <timeless> tantek: i think that was Michael Hanson
# [20:00] <timeless> ... what's the input you are requesting
# [20:00] <timeless> chaals: it's in our charter
# [20:00] <timeless> ... mozilla has a spec and someone supposedly into it
# [20:00] <timeless> ... do they have someone to do the work
# [20:00] <timeless> ... and you can say i don't know
# [20:00] <timeless> tantek: i don't know
# [20:00] <timeless> chaals: the answer is "we don't know"
# [20:01] <timeless> ACTION shepazu to contact dbaron (Mozilla AC), cc tantek
# [20:01] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [20:01] <trackbot> Created ACTION-657 - Contact dbaron (Mozilla AC), cc tantek [on Doug Schepers - due 2012-05-08].
# [20:01] <timeless> [ Break for 15 minutes ]
# [20:01] <timeless> Topic: Web Components
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# [20:29] * Joins: PaulKinlan (PaulKinlan@205.248.100.252)
# [20:29] <timeless> chaals: sicking wasn't here
# [20:29] <timeless> ... XBL2 should be parked as a WG Note
# [20:29] <timeless> sicking: if things go south, can we bring it back?
# [20:29] * Joins: PaulKinl_ (PaulKinlan@216.239.45.130)
# [20:29] <timeless> chaals: yes, it's in the charter
# [20:29] <timeless> plh: is there a lot of work?
# [20:29] <timeless> shepazu: do we do a CfC?
# [20:29] * Joins: krisk (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [20:30] <timeless> chaals: I volunteer to update the status of the document
# [20:30] * Joins: tross (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [20:30] <ArtB> ACTION: Barstow start CfC to create a WG Note for XBL2 (and Chaals will do the work)
# [20:30] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [20:30] * RRSAgent records action 10
# [20:30] <trackbot> Created ACTION-658 - Start CfC to create a WG Note for XBL2 (and Chaals will do the work) [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-05-08].
# [20:30] <timeless> chaals: where are we?
# [20:30] <timeless> dglazkov: lots of work has been done since last TPAC
# [20:30] <timeless> ... the main feedback at TPAC
# [20:31] <timeless> ... was we brought a lot of stuff
# [20:31] <timeless> ... but it was a bag of goods
# [20:31] <timeless> ... rather than a coherent whole
# [20:31] * Quits: plh (plh@128.30.52.28) (Quit: always accept cookies)
# [20:31] * Joins: smaug_ (chatzilla@212.226.72.220)
# [20:31] <timeless> ... we needed a declarative form
# [20:31] <timeless> ... where is the spec
# [20:31] <timeless> ... confinement/isolation
# [20:31] <timeless> ... lightweight/functional
# [20:32] * Quits: PaulKinlan (PaulKinlan@205.248.100.252) (Ping timeout)
# [20:32] <timeless> ... with the help of shepazu, we got things we needed
# [20:32] * Joins: tross_ (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [20:32] <timeless> ... it takes more work to get a component in webkit bugzilla
# [20:33] * timeless -> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/57f8cfc4a7dc/explainer/index.html Web Components Explained
# [20:33] <shepazu> s/help of shepazu/help of ArtB and shepazu/
# [20:33] * Quits: tross (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
# [20:33] * timeless shepazu: can you copy the line i just wrote ^?
# [20:33] <shepazu> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/57f8cfc4a7dc/explainer/index.html Web Components Explained
# [20:33] <timeless> s/http/-> http/
# [20:33] <dglazkov> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/spec/shadow/index.html
# [20:33] * timeless thanks shepazu
# [20:34] <timeless> s|http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/spec/shadow/index.html|-> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/spec/shadow/index.html Shadow DOM ED|
# [20:34] <timeless> dglazkov: we talked to a lot of people
# [20:34] <timeless> ... i tried to come up with as solid of a spec as i could
# [20:34] <timeless> ... simultaneously we developed this in WebKit
# [20:35] * Joins: ojan (u5519@88.198.6.68)
# [20:35] <timeless> ... behind a flag, and only available in Developer builds
# [20:35] <timeless> ... i don't want a repeat of WebSQL
# [20:35] <timeless> ... this helped inform ourselves about things
# [20:35] <timeless> ... it helped flush out things
# [20:35] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [20:35] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [20:35] * Quits: komoroske (komoroske@216.239.45.4) (Quit: komoroske)
# [20:35] <timeless> ... the basis of the spec was the XBL2 part
# [20:35] <timeless> ... there has been a lot of things added
# [20:35] <timeless> ... a lot of that is precision of shadow dom
# [20:35] <timeless> ... htmly things
# [20:36] <timeless> ... guided by our implementation
# [20:36] <timeless> ... today the spec is in pretty good shape
# [20:36] <timeless> ... we have a small bug list
# [20:36] <dglazkov> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/showdependencytree.cgi?id=14978
# [20:36] * Joins: plh (plh@128.30.52.28)
# [20:36] <timeless> s|https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/showdependencytree.cgi?id=14978|-> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/showdependencytree.cgi?id=14978 Shadow DOM Bug Tree|
# [20:36] <timeless> dglazkov: some are small things, "not MUSTy enough"
# [20:37] <timeless> ... there's one (largish) addition we're contemplating
# [20:37] <timeless> ... bug 15818
# [20:37] <timeless> s|s/does'nt existr/doesn't exist/||
# [20:37] <timeless> s|2 does'nt existr|2 doesn't exist|
# [20:38] <timeless> s|s/pas that/past/that/||
# [20:38] <timeless> [ XXX scribe suspects that the scribe script has reached its breaking point ]
# [20:38] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [20:38] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
# [20:39] <shepazu> q+ to ask about changing styles of local instances (a la SVG <use>)
# [20:39] * Zakim sees adrianba, shepazu on the speaker queue
# [20:39] <timeless> dglazkov: i also worked on the HTML Templates Spec
# [20:39] <timeless> q?
# [20:39] * Zakim sees adrianba, shepazu on the speaker queue
# [20:39] <adrianba> q-
# [20:39] * Zakim sees shepazu on the speaker queue
# [20:39] <timeless> ... an idea
# [20:40] <timeless> ... we have the templates element (see the Explainer doc)
# [20:40] * Joins: Russell_Berkoff (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [20:40] <timeless> ... what makes it "interesting" is that it requires HTML Parser modifications
# [20:40] <timeless> ... I wrote the spec and WebKit modifications
# [20:40] <timeless> ... to see how it was received
# [20:40] <timeless> ... several people voiced Cautious Concern
# [20:40] <timeless> ... Hsivonen and Abarth
# [20:41] <timeless> ... the two parser people whose brain's we picked
# [20:41] <timeless> ... they James Graham from Opera wasn't very happy either
# [20:42] <timeless> ... there's still a need for an extra mode (?)
# [20:42] <timeless> ... the <template> tag has 2 modes
# [20:42] <timeless> ... "declare anything"
# [20:42] <timeless> ... "declare anywhere"
# [20:42] * Joins: komoroske (komoroske@216.239.45.4)
# [20:42] <timeless> ... we're going to drop "declare anywhere", we don't need it for Web Components
# [20:43] <timeless> ... "declare anything" we're going to keep, since it seems useful
# [20:43] <plh> rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight
# [20:43] <RRSAgent> ok, plh; I will not start a new log at midnight
# [20:43] * plh rrsagent, generate minutes
# [20:43] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html plh
# [20:43] <timeless> Josh_Soref: you're going to drop anywhere, and you're keeping anything?
# [20:43] <timeless> [ Laughter ]
# [20:43] <timeless> dglazkov: right
# [20:43] <timeless> dglazkov: Custom Elements is the next spec in line
# [20:43] <timeless> ... i'm planning to start working on it next week
# [20:43] <timeless> ... i spent the last couple of weeks researching the problem space
# [20:44] <timeless> ... i wrote a poly-fill
# [20:44] * plh ok, minutes are fixed
# [20:44] <timeless> ... if you have Shadow DOM
# [20:44] <dglazkov> https://github.com/dglazkov/Web-Components-Polyfill
# [20:44] <timeless> s|https://github.com/dglazkov/Web-Components-Polyfill|-> https://github.com/dglazkov/Web-Components-Polyfill Polyfill (using Web Components)|
# [20:44] <timeless> dglazkov: in Custom Elements, one of the new thing is fictional syntax
# [20:44] * Joins: ericu (ericu@216.239.45.130)
# [20:44] <timeless> ... these items aren't controversial
# [20:45] <timeless> ... loading definitions of components
# [20:45] <timeless> ... which is a big issue
# [20:45] <timeless> ... don't want Synchronous
# [20:45] <timeless> ... but Asynchronous has issues: When am I a component/When am I unknown?
# [20:45] <timeless> ... instantiating a Component
# [20:45] <timeless> ... has interesting effects
# [20:45] <timeless> ... maybe i'd like to be able to drop into user script
# [20:45] <timeless> ... but if i'm instantiating from Parser, that maybe isn't a good idea
# [20:46] <timeless> ... more mundane issue
# [20:46] <timeless> ... custom elements are DOM Objects
# [20:46] <timeless> ... with an extended prototype chain
# [20:46] <timeless> ... i don't know how to spec this
# [20:46] <timeless> ... since it creates a dependency on ECMAScript
# [20:46] <timeless> anne: what exactly?
# [20:46] <timeless> dglazkov: Custom Elements extend the Prototype Chain
# [20:46] <plh> partial interface?
# [20:46] <timeless> ... I don't want to create a dependency on ECMAScript
# [20:46] * Quits: komoroske (komoroske@216.239.45.4) (Quit: komoroske)
# [20:47] <timeless> anne: why is creating a dependency on ECMAScript a problem?
# [20:47] <timeless> plh: it seems like you're creating a partial interface
# [20:47] <timeless> dglazkov: right, but it's arbitrary
# [20:47] <timeless> anne: you should talk to cameron
# [20:47] <timeless> ... he'll probably say that you have to define it yourself in prose
# [20:47] <timeless> s/cameron/heycam/
# [20:47] <timeless> ... i'll look into it next week, after this session
# [20:47] <timeless> ... another thing, relating to elements
# [20:48] <timeless> ... we came to TPAC with custom tags
# [20:48] * plh wants to play lego with the lunch boxes
# [20:48] <timeless> ... there was much grievance
# [20:48] <timeless> s/custom tags/custom tags: x-slider/
# [20:48] <timeless> ... we switched to use elements
# [20:48] <timeless> ... it's a magical element, you can only set it once
# [20:49] <timeless> ... button is fancy button
# [20:49] <timeless> ... during instantiation, you have to specify it
# [20:49] <timeless> ... eric myer, of myerweb
# [20:49] <dglazkov> http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2012/04/10/element-customization/
# [20:50] <timeless> ... i want to bring it up, i'm feeling very ambivalent
# [20:50] <timeless> ... i'd like to figure out who would be the right person or forum
# [20:50] <timeless> ... i posted to webapps
# [20:50] <timeless> ... and crickets chimed in
# [20:50] <timeless> tantek: isn't this more HTML WG than WebApps WG?
# [20:50] <timeless> dglazkov: that's what i'd like to know
# [20:51] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [20:51] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [20:51] <timeless> shepazu: about inheriting from Button / Slider / Calendar
# [20:51] <timeless> ... there's been talk in the past about having psuedo elements
# [20:51] <timeless> ... say for CSS
# [20:51] <timeless> ... say for the slider's thumb
# [20:52] * timeless http://pastebin.mozilla.org/1610608
# [20:52] <timeless> dglazkov: we looked at the css variables spec
# [20:52] <timeless> ... the spec says css variables inherit into shadow dom
# [20:52] <timeless> shepazu: that calls out the need for pseudo elements
# [20:52] <timeless> dglazkov: with css variables, you don't
# [20:52] <timeless> shepazu: i don't understand yet
# [20:53] <dglazkov> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/samples/widget-theming.html
# [20:54] <timeless> dglazkov: i know the MS guys did pseudo elements
# [20:54] <timeless> ... and we have them in WebKit
# [20:54] <timeless> ... and we hate them
# [20:54] <timeless> dglazkov: what browsers use pseudo elements to style bits of things
# [20:54] <timeless> ... i think you use pseudo classes
# [20:55] <timeless> sicking: what do we use to style the placeholder
# [20:55] <timeless> ... or input elements?
# [20:55] <timeless> tantek: it's a psuedo class
# [20:56] <timeless> s/travis:/Travis:/g
# [20:56] <timeless> s/Mike_Smith/MikeSmith/g
# [20:57] <timeless> present+ Paul_Cotton
# [20:57] * chaals would be happy to kick Doug... thus leaving him in the IRC channel...
# [20:57] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [20:57] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [20:58] <timeless> dglazkov: in any declarative paradigm
# [20:58] <timeless> ... if you're saying button, or div is shelf
# [20:58] <timeless> ... you're defining a subclass
# [20:58] <timeless> ... and when you instantiate it
# [20:58] <timeless> ... you don't say, it's a shelf, oh, it's also a div
# [20:59] <timeless> shepazu: could there be another thing other than localname?
# [20:59] <timeless> dglazkov: i don't want to mess with
# [20:59] <timeless> tantek: could you consider defining it as a mixin rather than a subclass?
# [20:59] <timeless> dglazkov: that's decorators
# [20:59] <timeless> tantek: why not have everything be a mixin?
# [21:00] <timeless> dglazkov: when you're dealing with everything as an api
# [21:00] <timeless> ... you want to ensure things are always the same
# [21:00] <shepazu> q?
# [21:00] * Zakim sees shepazu on the speaker queue
# [21:00] <timeless> ... you don't want a style recalculation to cause your object to lose its decorator/api?
# [21:00] <timeless> tantek: that's done through css?
# [21:00] <timeless> dglazkov: well, decorators are done through css
# [21:00] <timeless> ... and then there's the moving it out of the tree
# [21:01] <timeless> tantek: well like the class= attribute
# [21:01] <timeless> dglazkov: but then you can have "spooky action at a distance"
# [21:01] <timeless> ... if you change the class name
# [21:01] <timeless> ... what happens to its state?
# [21:01] * MikeSmith pokes krisk - control test is running on ports 9080, 9081, 9443 on w3c-test.org; please try and let me know if you have any problems
# [21:01] <timeless> tantek: that invariant could be maintained
# [21:01] * Quits: smaug_ (chatzilla@212.226.72.220) (Client exited)
# [21:01] <timeless> dglazkov: i think that's possible
# [21:01] * Joins: smaug_ (chatzilla@212.226.72.220)
# [21:01] <timeless> ... when the developer of a component
# [21:01] <timeless> ... relies on it to be a button
# [21:01] <timeless> ... if you want to have multiple things as a tree
# [21:02] <timeless> ... that's definitely possible
# [21:02] <timeless> sicking: it introduces complexity
# [21:02] <timeless> ... roughly Multiple Inheritance in C++
# [21:02] <timeless> ... it's very powerful, but very complicated
# [21:02] <timeless> dglazkov: it's just extending a prototype chain
# [21:02] <timeless> ... moving down the chain
# [21:03] <timeless> s/it's/[currently] it's/
# [21:03] <timeless> tantek: it seems like reinventing Java Class Hierarchies
# [21:03] <timeless> dglazkov: it's not reinventing
# [21:03] <timeless> ... just naturalizing JS inheritance into the DOM
# [21:04] <timeless> s/Present+ glenn//
# [21:04] <timeless> shepazu: in SVG we have the USE ELEMENT
# [21:04] <timeless> ... you have a use element, you reference an elemnt
# [21:04] <timeless> s/elemnt/element/
# [21:04] <timeless> ... and you get another instance
# [21:04] <timeless> ... but you can add attributes to the copy
# [21:04] <timeless> ... so you can have a plain star
# [21:05] <timeless> ... and then style one copy to green
# [21:05] <timeless> ... or red
# [21:05] <timeless> ... at TPAC, you said "No"
# [21:05] <timeless> ... is that still the answer?
# [21:05] <timeless> dglazkov: i think having the shadow tree with separate style
# [21:05] <timeless> ... has dragons
# [21:05] <timeless> shepazu: so we could reuse it?
# [21:06] <timeless> dglazkov: you will lose some of the invariants that the SVG spec provides
# [21:06] <timeless> ... but the way Shadow DOM is defined
# [21:07] <timeless> s/Present+ PaulKinlan//
# [21:07] <timeless> shepazu: i think all that SVG needs to keep
# [21:07] <timeless> ... is the way to style each instance separately
# [21:07] <timeless> dglazkov: that's possible today
# [21:07] <timeless> ... SVG uses Shadow DOM in a very limited way
# [21:07] <timeless> ... it doesn't have insertion points
# [21:07] <timeless> ... if you want to extend to that
# [21:07] <timeless> ... it's OMG
# [21:08] <timeless> ArtB: from a procedural perspective
# [21:08] <timeless> ... we agreed to a CfC for Shadow DOM
# [21:08] <timeless> ... what about Template Spec?
# [21:08] <timeless> dglazkov: I think Template Spec, as it is right now, we're going to kill it
# [21:08] <timeless> ... and we'll pursue it in HTML
# [21:08] <timeless> ... in "Custom Elements"
# [21:08] <timeless> rafaelw: I think that's fine
# [21:09] <timeless> ArtB: so we're not going to publish this
# [21:09] <timeless> dglazkov: we're probably not going to publish it
# [21:09] <timeless> rafaelw: one of the more salient issues of the template element spec
# [21:09] <timeless> ... is two things
# [21:09] <timeless> ... what mechanism creates inertness
# [21:09] <timeless> ... and where do those elements reside?
# [21:09] <timeless> ... on the ML, there was a propose that they be lifted out
# [21:10] <timeless> ... there was an item about it being objectionable
# [21:10] <timeless> ... if we can sort out that
# [21:10] <timeless> ... i think that's the most useful+controversial part
# [21:10] <timeless> ... if we can get consensus on that, i think we can get progress
# [21:10] <timeless> [ Time Check ]
# [21:10] * PaulKinl_ is now known as Paul_Kinlan
# [21:10] <timeless> anne: hsivonen, abarth, jgraham are not here
# [21:11] <timeless> anne: hober is here
# [21:11] <timeless> anne: basically you lock out XHTML uses of templates
# [21:11] <timeless> hober: all things being equal, we shouldn't introduce more divergence between HTML and XHTML
# [21:11] <timeless> dglazkov: we have a Mexican Standoff
# [21:12] <timeless> ... between should we hurt XHTML
# [21:12] <ArtB> Present+ Alex_Komoroske
# [21:12] <timeless> ... vs. should we introduce something very non performant
# [21:12] <MikeSmith> cough TAG cough
# [21:12] <timeless> ojan: Ojan, Chrome, Member
# [21:12] <hober> s/Chrome/Google/
# [21:12] <shepazu> Alex Komoroske
# [21:12] <timeless> komoroske: Alex Komoroske, Google, Observer
# [21:13] <timeless> anne: elements inserted based on the template element
# [21:13] <timeless> ... you don't want them to be in
# [21:13] <timeless> ... because they cost resources
# [21:13] <timeless> ... and are exposed by QuerySelectAll/etc
# [21:13] <ArtB> Present+ Ojan_Vafai
# [21:13] <timeless> dglazkov: can we modify the XHTMLParser?
# [21:14] <timeless> anne: I have a draft that tries to modify XHTML parsing
# [21:14] <timeless> ... but it hasn't ...
# [21:14] <timeless> dglazkov: can we CfC dropping XHTML?
# [21:14] <timeless> [ laughter ]
# [21:14] * timeless XHTML or XML ?
# [21:14] <timeless> s/XHTML/XML/
# [21:14] <timeless> chaals: there's a proposal to make XML a kinder gentler beast
# [21:14] <timeless> anne: there's a big leap for moving things into a detached dom tree
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# [21:15] <timeless> ... it's cool and works for me
# [21:15] <MikeSmith> need a magic namespace
# [21:15] <timeless> ... but i don't think it would fly for others
# [21:15] <timeless> tross_: technically, it's inserted into the tree
# [21:15] <timeless> ... and then removed before anyone looks
# [21:15] <timeless> anne: the people who will care is the TAG
# [21:15] <timeless> ... and they want a document served as HTML or XHTML to behave the same
# [21:16] <timeless> paulc: More specifically, the Director cares
# [21:16] <sicking> q+
# [21:16] * Zakim sees shepazu, sicking on the speaker queue
# [21:16] <timeless> chaals: changing XML is like changing the W3C Patent Policy
# [21:16] <timeless> ... but it isn't written in Stone
# [21:16] <timeless> ... it's on a wiki somewhere
# [21:17] <MikeSmith> q+ to suggest, for now, note this as a known issue, document the rationale, move on
# [21:17] * Zakim sees shepazu, sicking, MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [21:17] <timeless> anne: we can say "we want to do this in html"
# [21:17] <shepazu> q-
# [21:17] * Zakim sees sicking, MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [21:17] <timeless> ... we don't think it will work in xml
# [21:17] <timeless> paulc: make a comment on the html wg's document
# [21:17] <timeless> anne: that's done, there's a bug
# [21:17] <timeless> ... but that won't get TAG attention until it ships
# [21:17] <timeless> ojan: no one has an alternative proposal that's technically feasible
# [21:17] <timeless> ... every other proposal has serious technical problems
# [21:18] <timeless> anne: if you don't address hiding from DOM Query
# [21:18] <timeless> ojan: and every future api that might do a network request or live action request
# [21:18] <timeless> ... needs to be template aware
# [21:18] <timeless> anne: in effect everyone needs to be aware
# [21:18] <timeless> shepazu: can we introduce the feature and say "does not work with xml"
# [21:18] <timeless> ... and let them solve it?
# [21:18] <timeless> anne: we already have that, it's called <noscript>
# [21:19] <timeless> dglazkov: we could also say we require an esoteric changes
# [21:19] <timeless> sicking: if i were to do this in Gecko
# [21:19] <timeless> ... i wouldn't touch Expat
# [21:19] <timeless> ... i'd change how the tree constructor handles events from Expat
# [21:19] <timeless> ... i don't think we need to violate XML
# [21:19] <timeless> ... wasn't there a proposal to stick things into <script> tags?
# [21:20] <timeless> dglazkov: there was
# [21:20] * Quits: ericu (ericu@216.239.45.130) (Ping timeout)
# [21:20] <timeless> sicking: although that also doesn't work in XML
# [21:20] <MikeSmith> q-
# [21:20] * Zakim sees sicking on the speaker queue
# [21:20] * MikeSmith what chaals said
# [21:20] <timeless> chaals: we can say "hey world, we're going to upset your apple cart/orchard"
# [21:20] <timeless> ... and see if they care
# [21:20] <timeless> MikeSmith: +1
# [21:20] <timeless> anne: you definitely violate the spirit
# [21:20] <sicking> q-
# [21:20] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [21:20] <timeless> chaals: there's no question that it makes a mess
# [21:21] <timeless> tantek: if you're using XML, can't you use XSLT?
# [21:21] <timeless> dglazkov: resolution: we'll try to spec it as "doesn't work in XML"
# [21:22] <timeless> tantek: I don't think it's Apple Specific
# [21:22] <timeless> [ Laughter ]
# [21:22] <timeless> ArtB: dglazkov, have you thought about publishing the Explainer?
# [21:22] <timeless> dglazkov: i thought about it
# [21:22] <timeless> ... but it seems like a sequencing issue
# [21:22] <timeless> chaals: it makes sense to do it
# [21:23] <timeless> dglazkov: i can reformat it
# [21:23] <timeless> ... update it (for Shadow DOM
# [21:23] <timeless> s/DOM/DOM)/
# [21:23] <timeless> ... and then publish
# [21:23] <timeless> shepazu: i can help
# [21:23] <timeless> dglazkov: if you guys have time
# [21:24] <timeless> ... please dig into Shadow DOM and help me eliminate non MUSTy stuff
# [21:24] <timeless> anne: there might be a lot of those things
# [21:24] <ArtB> ACTION: barstow start a CfC to publish a FPWD of Web Components Explainer (when an ED with TR template is available)
# [21:24] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [21:24] * RRSAgent records action 11
# [21:24] <trackbot> Created ACTION-659 - Start a CfC to publish a FPWD of Web Components Explainer (when an ED with TR template is available) [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-05-08].
# [21:24] <timeless> dglazkov: I do spend a lot of time staring at the spec
# [21:24] <timeless> ... but it's hard for the person who wrote something to see its faults
# [21:24] <timeless> ... any more questions?
# [21:24] <timeless> chaals: thank you dglazkov
# [21:24] <timeless> [ Applause ]
# [21:25] <timeless> chaals: let's have an hour for lunch. Resume at 1:30pm
# [21:25] <timeless> Topic: Web Intents
# [21:25] <dglazkov> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/spec/shadow/index.html
# [21:25] <timeless> s/Bryan:/bryan:/g
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# [21:28] <timeless> s/Present+ Tony Ross/Present+ Tony_Ross/
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# [22:44] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [22:44] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
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# [22:47] <timeless> Paul_Kinlan: Hi, turns out I'm a member
# [22:47] <timeless> ... as of a couple of hours ago
# [22:47] * Joins: sicking (chatzilla@205.248.100.252)
# [22:47] <timeless> ... we're going to talk about web intents
# [22:48] <timeless> ... i want to give you a demo
# [22:48] <timeless> ... i don't know how much you know about what we're trying to achieve
# [22:48] <timeless> [ We try to get projector projecting ]
# [22:48] <timeless> [ Lights go out ]
# [22:49] <timeless> [ chaals: Nope, that's not the one ]
# [22:49] <timeless> Paul_Kinlan: there are a couple of UCs where it's very hard to build integrations
# [22:49] <timeless> ... with third parties
# [22:50] <timeless> ... the whole point is that even though we have widgets
# [22:50] <timeless> ... there's no way to make integrations
# [22:50] <timeless> ... the biggest common action is Share
# [22:50] <timeless> ... the next is Bookmark
# [22:50] <timeless> ... but things people want to do:
# [22:50] <timeless> ... Edit Documents, Pick resources
# [22:50] <timeless> ... we want to make this easy
# [22:50] <timeless> ... let someone pick something from their cloud storage
# [22:51] <timeless> [ Projector had temporarily done something positive ]
# [22:51] <timeless> [ Projector failed ]
# [22:51] <timeless> [ adrianba: I just pressed random things until it worked ]
# [22:51] <timeless> [ shepazu: that's how they do most things ]
# [22:51] <timeless> [ Laughter ]
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# [22:52] <timeless> [ chaals: alright, do the interpretive dance ]
# [22:52] <timeless> Paul_Kinlan: there are a couple of common actions
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# [22:52] <timeless> ... that we think are core to the web
# [22:52] <timeless> ... users do common things:
# [22:52] <timeless> ... share data
# [22:52] <timeless> ... save physical data to things (like Drop Box)
# [22:52] <timeless> ... they pick data from things (Word Document, Image, Video)
# [22:53] <timeless> ... they could pick from Flickr, Drop Box, YouTube
# [22:53] <timeless> ... one of the things I was going to show (in the demo) was Imagemator
# [22:53] <timeless> ... what we would see on the screen is a big button that says "Choose image"
# [22:53] <timeless> ... the browser knows which services you use
# [22:53] <timeless> ... the demo would let you pick from Picasa
# [22:54] <timeless> ... Picasa doesn't use Intents, but it has a public API which lets you do it
# [22:54] <timeless> ... You can do server to server work
# [22:54] <timeless> ... but we're starting to see purely client side applications
# [22:54] <timeless> ... a lot of their functionality is built on the client
# [22:54] <timeless> ... when you have applications sharing lots of data (Video, ...)
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# [22:55] <timeless> ... the data might be local to your network
# [22:55] <timeless> ... or proximate to your network
# [22:55] <timeless> ... we'd like to let these two applications talk directly
# [22:55] <timeless> ... like a bridge
# [22:55] <timeless> ... we have demos that do both
# [22:55] <timeless> ... need a network, or client side resolution
# [22:55] <timeless> ... where we literally process a blob
# [22:55] <timeless> ... the demo itself doesn't do much work
# [22:55] * Joins: anne (annevk@205.248.100.252)
# [22:56] <timeless> ... it finds a service that does editing
# [22:56] * Joins: smaug_ (chatzilla@212.226.72.220)
# [22:56] <timeless> ... if the browser doesn't have a service for a thing
# [22:56] <timeless> ... the browser can use an indexing service (store, search engine)
# [22:56] <timeless> ... to discover a service
# [22:56] <timeless> ... In the demo, you'd press edit
# [22:56] <timeless> ... you don't have anything installed
# [22:56] <timeless> ... the Chrome Store would be searched
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# [22:57] <anne> link to the demo?
# [22:57] * timeless one sec
# [22:57] <timeless> ... you'd pick Picnik
# [22:58] <timeless> s|anne link to demo?|-> http://demos.webintents.org/ Web Intents Demos|
# [22:58] <timeless> s|link to demo?|-> http://demos.webintents.org/ Web Intents Demos|
# [22:58] * timeless sighs
# [22:58] * timeless anne please write one more line (just "Ah" would be nice)
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# [22:59] <anne> ah
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# [22:59] <timeless> s|ah|-> http://www.imagemator.com/ Imagemator|
# [22:59] <chaals> q+
# [22:59] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
# [22:59] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [22:59] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [22:59] <timeless> DanD: have you looked into a scenario
# [22:59] <timeless> ... where the application developer wants to choose a certain instance
# [22:59] <timeless> ... say I'm a photo sharing service and I want to choose Picnik
# [22:59] <timeless> ... I want to do it in a way that makes sense
# [23:00] <timeless> ... not to choose a default intent
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# [23:00] <timeless> ... but a specific case
# [23:00] <timeless> Paul_Kinlan: We've talked about that in the TF
# [23:00] <timeless> ... an "Explicit Intent"
# [23:00] <timeless> ... say you're photoshop.com
# [23:00] <timeless> ... You want to be open to discovery
# [23:00] <timeless> ... however you've got specific integration with
# [23:00] <timeless> DanD: and the user should be able to override in the end?
# [23:01] <timeless> gbillock: explicit intents, it's unclear whether they will be overridable
# [23:01] <timeless> ... explicit intents let web content make the picker
# [23:01] <timeless> ... and letting web developers use Web Intents for internal RPC
# [23:01] <timeless> ... the way that you could bring up a browser guaranteed redress proof UI
# [23:02] <timeless> ... is interesting
# [23:02] <timeless> ... we're hoping with experimentation we'll figure that out
# [23:02] <timeless> chaals: the answer is that it should be overridable
# [23:02] <timeless> shepazu: it should be up to the UA
# [23:02] <timeless> chaals: if you have a local installed application
# [23:02] <timeless> ... it should work
# [23:02] <timeless> ... say you don't want to use photoshop.com
# [23:02] <timeless> ... you want to use photoshop
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# [23:03] <timeless> gbillock: that's totally within scope
# [23:03] <timeless> ... we definitely want to be able to build a bridge between web apps and local apps
# [23:03] <timeless> ... for some embedders like OSs
# [23:03] <timeless> ... like Android
# [23:03] <timeless> ... there ought to be a way to create a mapping
# [23:03] <timeless> ... or Windows 8's "Contracts"
# [23:04] <timeless> ... you shouldn't be able to just go from a web app to photoshop
# [23:04] <timeless> ... but also from photoshop to say save to your dropbox
# [23:04] <timeless> Paul_Kinlan: we also want to be able to do picking
# [23:04] <timeless> s/picking/viewing/
# [23:04] <timeless> ... it should be easy to do Open With
# [23:04] <timeless> gbillock: currently the spec is focused on what you do for the Web Page
# [23:05] <timeless> ... there's language to say that this isn't the only way
# [23:05] <timeless> ... saying that there should be a local execution model
# [23:05] <timeless> ... but that's left up to the UA
# [23:05] <timeless> chaals: how do you go with AppCache
# [23:05] <timeless> Paul_Kinlan: we've done a lot of experimentation with AppCache
# [23:05] <timeless> ... we've experimented with RPC/RPH
# [23:05] <timeless> ... it's hard to get things to work with AppCache'd content
# [23:06] <timeless> chaals: because it sucks
# [23:06] <chaals> s/chaals: because it sucks//
# [23:06] <timeless> Paul_Kinlan: most people use a query string with RPH
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# [23:06] <timeless> ... but Intents uses something different, so it could work
# [23:06] <timeless> magnus: you said you could have a UA
# [23:06] <timeless> ... that could download it using a search engine
# [23:06] <timeless> ... what happens while it's being retrieved
# [23:07] <timeless> Paul_Kinlan: the implementation in Chrome
# [23:07] <timeless> ... does the query using the web store (http)
# [23:07] <timeless> ... the API itself is Async
# [23:07] <timeless> ... the UA pops up the picker
# [23:07] <timeless> ... but the page isn't blocked
# [23:07] <timeless> ... if you have no networking
# [23:07] <timeless> ... then there might be no options for the user
# [23:08] <timeless> ... but how that works is up to the UA
# [23:08] <timeless> ... and because it's Async, that shouldn't affect the page
# [23:08] <timeless> gbillock: the idea that a user might be trapped with no options
# [23:08] <timeless> ... is definitely unappealing to developers
# [23:08] <timeless> ... one possibility is to let clients query to see if things are installed
# [23:08] <timeless> ... but that leads to fingerprinting
# [23:08] <timeless> ... that's a weak supercookie
# [23:09] <timeless> ... instead the direciton we're trying to go
# [23:09] <timeless> s/direciton/direction/
# [23:09] <timeless> ... is to let client applications provide fallback suggestions
# [23:09] <timeless> ... that the UA can use if the picker would otherwise be empty
# [23:09] <timeless> ... instead of being empty, you might see DropBox or whatever
# [23:09] <timeless> ... our current experimental implementation uses the chrome web store
# [23:09] <timeless> ... so they have to be installable
# [23:10] <timeless> ... the end state we'd want to get io
# [23:10] <timeless> s/io/to/
# [23:10] <timeless> ... is to have a web for web pages to identify themselves as services
# [23:10] <timeless> ... we've been discussing that in the HTML WG
# [23:10] <timeless> ... do we have an <intent> tag
# [23:10] <timeless> ... or ...
# [23:10] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [23:10] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
# [23:10] <timeless> ... It looks like Hixie is most favorable to having an <intent> tag
# [23:10] <timeless> ... but combining RPC, RPH, <intent> together
# [23:10] <timeless> ... so they'd look the same for users
# [23:11] <timeless> ... giving us both Imperative and Declarative
# [23:11] <timeless> ... and the same User Facing appearance
# [23:11] <chaals> q?
# [23:11] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
# [23:11] <timeless> anne: what Hixie said was quite reasonable
# [23:11] <timeless> ... that still doesn't say how you identify an app
# [23:11] <timeless> gbillock: Gmail would say use RPH for mailto:
# [23:11] <timeless> ... and register <intent>
# [23:12] <timeless> anne: on my web page, i have a contact form
# [23:12] <timeless> ... and i have a send me an email link
# [23:12] <gbillock> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/web-intents/raw-file/tip/spec/Overview.html
# [23:12] <timeless> s|http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/web-intents/raw-file/tip/spec/Overview.html|-> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/web-intents/raw-file/tip/spec/Overview.html Web Intents specification|
# [23:12] * dglazkov apologizes to tross and rafaelw for running out on them. We should continue this discussion though!
# [23:12] <timeless> gbillock: if you look at 3.1
# [23:13] <shepazu> q+ to ask about "inlining services" into a page with intents
# [23:13] * Zakim sees chaals, shepazu on the speaker queue
# [23:13] * odinho the example is better with "share". the canonical intent.
# [23:13] <timeless> ... there'd be a services parameter
# [23:13] <timeless> gbillock: in chrome
# [23:13] <timeless> ... the picker is a list of optional services
# [23:13] <timeless> ... the top having items the user has used
# [23:13] <timeless> ... possibly it would query the store
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# [23:13] <timeless> anne: if the developer provides urls
# [23:14] <timeless> ... what do you show?
# [23:14] <timeless> ... not just the url?
# [23:14] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [23:14] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [23:14] <timeless> gbillock: no, the page title + favicon, probably
# [23:14] <timeless> ... or if we've processed it, something else
# [23:14] <timeless> chaals: I want to go back to overrides
# [23:14] <timeless> ... the UC will come from Accessibility
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# [23:15] <timeless> ... if you made a request for an Explicit Intent
# [23:15] <timeless> ... it should be possible to pick something else
# [23:15] <timeless> ... if you pass off text, then anything can
# [23:15] <timeless> ... but if you pass word97 documents
# [23:15] <timeless> ... then there are some other things that can handle it
# [23:16] <timeless> shepazu: obviously, if i have something, i can describe it
# [23:16] <timeless> ... is there any other way to give information to the user?
# [23:16] <timeless> gbillock: in the picker itself?
# [23:16] <timeless> ... the client presents the initial messaging to the user
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# [23:17] <timeless> shepazu: is there a way to give a description of the requested action?
# [23:17] <shepazu> s/description/human-readable description/
# [23:17] <timeless> gbillock: the UA has the complete Intent call bundled up
# [23:17] <timeless> ... what the action is
# [23:17] <timeless> ... what the type is
# [23:17] <timeless> ... any extra data
# [23:18] <timeless> ... the UA has to use that
# [23:18] <timeless> ... it can definitely customize itself
# [23:18] <timeless> ... to say "which of these services do you want to use to edit a contact"
# [23:18] <shepazu> q?
# [23:18] * Zakim sees chaals, shepazu on the speaker queue
# [23:18] <timeless> ... we got a bit of feedback from UI people to provide per action wording
# [23:18] <shepazu> ack chaals
# [23:18] * Zakim sees shepazu on the speaker queue
# [23:19] <timeless> [ We have a projected Cosmos ]
# [23:19] <timeless> Topic: Web Intents Demo
# [23:19] <timeless> gbillock: Selection refers to the picker
# [23:20] <timeless> ... since the UA is in charge of that
# [23:20] <timeless> ... the UA can be arbitrarily sophisticated in terms of coaching the User
# [23:20] <timeless> Topic: Web Intents Demo
# [23:21] <chaals> hi
# [23:21] <timeless> s|hi|-> http://www.imagemator.com/ Imagemator|
# [23:21] <timeless> Paul_Kinlan: this is Imagemator
# [23:21] * chaals resists the temptation to follow up with "asl"
# [23:21] <timeless> [ Clicks Choose Image ]
# [23:22] <timeless> Paul_Kinlan: these are the user's services
# [23:22] <timeless> ... and these are the store services
# [23:22] <timeless> ... I'll use ... CloudFilePicker.com
# [23:22] <timeless> ... this is Picasa
# [23:22] <timeless> ... it isn't direct, it's via the Picasa API
# [23:22] <timeless> [ Picks a face with two phones pasted ]
# [23:22] <timeless> [ Laughter ]
# [23:23] <timeless> [ Clicks Edit ]
# [23:23] <timeless> ... I'll pick Mememator, i haven't installed it
# [23:23] <timeless> ... this has no server to server logic
# [23:23] <timeless> ... eventually this will work offline
# [23:24] <timeless> ... I'll pick Inspirationmator
# [23:24] <timeless> [ Enters Practice Demos; They work ]
# [23:24] <timeless> Paul_Kinlan: The UA passes the data around
# [23:24] <timeless> glenn: does this pass data around retain tainting?
# [23:24] <timeless> Paul_Kinlan: not in this case
# [23:25] <timeless> ... in here, the canvas isn't tainting
# [23:25] <timeless> ... I want to show two actions "Share blob" and "Share page"
# [23:26] <timeless> ... Web Intents can handle both
# [23:26] <timeless> adrianba: who decides what to be shared?
# [23:26] <timeless> ... in the Windows 8 contracts, we publish different options
# [23:26] <timeless> ... the link, the link with metadata, the html
# [23:26] <timeless> shepazu: like clipboard
# [23:27] <timeless> Paul_Kinlan: like clipboard
# [23:27] <timeless> ... right now, the application invokes one type
# [23:27] <timeless> ... saying i'm invoking the Image
# [23:27] <timeless> ... the link would be the physical image, and not a reference
# [23:27] <timeless> gbillock: there are two strings
# [23:27] <timeless> ... for match making
# [23:27] <timeless> ... the actions and the type
# [23:27] <timeless> ... the actions must match exactly
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# [23:28] <timeless> ... and types must match, or if they're mime types must overlap
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# [23:28] <timeless> ... if twitter knows to share Images, Links, or Videos
# [23:28] <timeless> ... then it would register for 3 distinct things
# [23:28] <timeless> ... so you get a footprint over all the things you understand
# [23:28] <timeless> ... that's our theory right now
# [23:28] <timeless> Paul_Kinlan: the client application says it will do one thing
# [23:29] <timeless> ... your application will say it can support three types of data
# [23:29] <timeless> ... we might need to change it so you can offer one of two things as a request
# [23:29] <timeless> adrianba: there's a problem where you have multiple datatypes with precedence
# [23:29] <timeless> ... but it seems that like now the onus is on the user right now
# [23:29] <timeless> ... i know that twitter can take: page link, page link+title
# [23:30] <timeless> Paul_Kinlan: i think the onus is on the Client app to pick sensible types
# [23:30] <timeless> adrianba: as a user of the source app
# [23:30] <timeless> ... i have to know which button to pick to trigger to the destination app i have
# [23:30] <timeless> Paul_Kinlan: right now, our apps have one definitive type/action
# [23:31] <timeless> ... share was kind of interesting
# [23:31] <timeless> ... because very few apps share physical data
# [23:31] <timeless> ... most share data
# [23:31] <timeless> shepazu: i agree with adrianba, share is ambiguous
# [23:31] <timeless> q+ to talk about Share v. Save
# [23:31] * Zakim sees shepazu, timeless on the speaker queue
# [23:32] <timeless> shepazu: look at facebook
# [23:32] <timeless> ... at one point you only shared a link
# [23:32] <timeless> ... now it also embeds some of the content
# [23:32] <timeless> gbillock: the thing starting the activity is the client
# [23:32] <timeless> ... and the thing performing is the service
# [23:32] <chaals> ack shepazu
# [23:32] <Zakim> shepazu, you wanted to ask about "inlining services" into a page with intents
# [23:32] * Zakim sees timeless on the speaker queue
# [23:32] <timeless> shepazu: i think there will need to be a negotation
# [23:33] <adrianba> q?
# [23:33] * Zakim sees timeless on the speaker queue
# [23:33] <chaals> q+ shepazu
# [23:33] * Zakim sees timeless, shepazu on the speaker queue
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# [23:33] <timeless> gbillock: the question of how complicated the handshake should be
# [23:33] <timeless> ... is obviously
# [23:33] <timeless> ... in order for this to work, the ecosystem has to agree
# [23:33] <timeless> ... Facebook/G+ occasionally figure out what you meant
# [23:34] <timeless> ... with that in mind, we've erred on the side of no negotation
# [23:34] <timeless> ... expand what you except
# [23:34] <timeless> anne: i think for most user how to pick a service will be complicated enough
# [23:35] <timeless> gbillock: we decided to burden the service to enumerate what it supports
# [23:35] <timeless> anne: maybe you should have a way for the client to offer multiple at a time
# [23:35] <timeless> ... and let the service indicate its preferred payload
# [23:35] <timeless> Josh_Soref: this is not "Paste Special"
# [23:35] <timeless> shepazu: the user is stupid
# [23:35] <timeless> anne: the user has better things to do
# [23:36] <timeless> ack me
# [23:36] <Zakim> timeless, you wanted to talk about Share v. Save
# [23:36] * Zakim sees shepazu on the speaker queue
# [23:36] <MikeSmith> q?
# [23:36] * Zakim sees shepazu on the speaker queue
# [23:36] <chaals> scribe: chaals
# [23:36] <adrianba> q+ to talk about example of sharing a page
# [23:36] * Zakim sees shepazu, adrianba on the speaker queue
# [23:36] <shepazu> s/stupid/stupid (sarcastically)/
# [23:36] <chaals> timeless: I made a trip and tried to sign in. I could print a PDF or follow a link. I would like to decide to send it somewhere.
# [23:37] <chaals> ... you were expecting me to send it via a sharing service, but I want to save it somewhere and then use that to do my sharing.
# [23:37] <chaals> gbillock: You want to be able to translate the intents?
# [23:37] <chaals> timeless: I am saying they are the same thing
# [23:38] <chaals> paulk: I don't have an answer - there are different things that people expect from what they see.
# [23:38] <chaals> ... I don't think we don't want to fire two intents, or people will end up publishing washing lists of services that do everything.
# [23:39] <DanD> q?
# [23:39] * Zakim sees shepazu, adrianba on the speaker queue
# [23:39] <chaals> timeless: fallback is to have trasnlator intents. Doable and I want to make it easy - but I see share and save as the same.
# [23:39] <DanD> q+
# [23:39] * Zakim sees shepazu, adrianba, DanD on the speaker queue
# [23:39] <chaals> ... I can print to my device, rather than on paper. It is really a save, but as far as the computer is concerned it is a print.
# [23:40] <chaals> Paulk: Share was a broadcast, save was putting it somewhere. I can see the mental models behind this, but we have to work on this
# [23:40] <chaals> gbillock: The API doesn't spell out the verbs. It is an invocation of delivery leaving things open for usage to coalesce.
# [23:40] <chaals> ... reason common verbs are useful is that they give a way t develop a good expectation to agree on what you are trying to do.
# [23:41] * Quits: rniwa (rniwa@205.248.100.252) (Quit: rniwa)
# [23:41] <chaals> ... There are edge cases which are hard to think about - should a kindle support print and share and save?
# [23:41] <timeless> s/way t/way to/
# [23:41] <timeless> q?
# [23:41] * Zakim sees shepazu, adrianba, DanD on the speaker queue
# [23:41] <chaals> ... we're waiting to see what happens with usage - what emergent verbs there are.
# [23:41] <timeless> ack shepazu
# [23:41] * Zakim sees adrianba, DanD on the speaker queue
# [23:42] <chaals> kamos: we are waiting to get feedback.
# [23:42] <chaals> shepazu: In your demo you open a tab for the events. It might be interesting to be able to load a service inline on a page...
# [23:42] * Joins: rniwa (rniwa@205.248.100.252)
# [23:42] <chaals> paulk: we have two dispositions. All these demos use new tab, for transitory implementation motivations (bugs)
# [23:43] <chaals> ... there is an inline disposition that should be able to do that.
# [23:43] <chaals> ... let's you see the context, it is relatively unspoofable, it is an area we have been wary of.
# [23:43] <chaals> s/unspoo/spoo/
# [23:44] <chaals> ... we weren't confident that we could make it secure.
# [23:44] <chaals> shepazu: can't you have a UI option where the user gets to choose how it appears?
# [23:44] <chaals> ... eg in maps I want to have something within a page.
# [23:44] <chaals> paulk: we want to xplore it but haven't.
# [23:45] <chaals> gbillock: the obstacle is that the service has to provide an iframeable interface, which is subject to attack and we haven't figured out how to solve that yet.
# [23:45] <tantek> q+ to ask how broad is the scope of intents and cross-application services, e.g. some examples discussed seem similar to OpenDoc/OLE, especially in local client-app to client-app content/service handling.
# [23:45] * Zakim sees adrianba, DanD, tantek on the speaker queue
# [23:45] <chaals> ... we are expecting a proposal from someone so we will see what happens.
# [23:45] <chaals> ack adr
# [23:45] <Zakim> adrianba, you wanted to talk about example of sharing a page
# [23:45] * Zakim sees DanD, tantek on the speaker queue
# [23:46] <chaals> adrianba: wanted to give an example from windows. We have contracts, and share contract is one of them. The browser supports the idea of sharing a page. User decides to share a page.
# [23:46] <chaals> ... browser is a client in web intents terms. Can share link, a link+metadata, or HTML snippet.
# [23:47] <timeless> s/paulk:/Paul_Kinlan:/G
# [23:47] <timeless> s/Paulk:/Paul_Kinlan:/G
# [23:47] <chaals> ... when I choose share, windows finds services that supports one of those formats. Twitter app might take links+data, a bookmark does something similar, email might use the full HTML snippet, ...
# [23:47] <timeless> s/paulc:/PaulC:/G
# [23:47] <chaals> ... we allow any service that responds to a type to appear. User doesn't have to think about the options.
# [23:47] <chaals> ... sounds like your model is the service say it can take one of those threee.
# [23:48] <chaals> Paul_Kinlan: We ahve a model where you can share a link. Once we have that we can go fetch more detail, and put it in the metadata pat of the intent.
# [23:48] <timeless> s/Dan_Druta:/DanD:/g
# [23:48] <ArtB> Present+ Yosuke_Funahashi
# [23:48] <chaals> ... you have a link plus extra metadata. Have to think about service applications - they can ignore data, read it if it is there.
# [23:48] <chaals> ... not all clients will share all data. In Android services don't populate metadata consistently.
# [23:49] <timeless> s/Present+ PaulKinlan//
# [23:49] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [23:49] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [23:49] <chaals> ... using name as a URL was based on describing a particular experience. Tell people how you do it, what to populate the data with. Was going to be a lot looser on definition, with people using URL as value for where the information will come from.
# [23:50] <chaals> ... both client and server would choose what they send/receive.
# [23:50] <chaals> adrianba: feels a lot less predictable about what the user is going to receive
# [23:50] <timeless> s|s/Present+ PaulKinlan//||
# [23:50] <chaals> ... what is the URL for, what can I do with that?
# [23:50] * MikeSmith to timeless - those s|foo|bar| subtitutions you doing aren't working
# [23:50] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [23:50] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [23:50] * timeless MikeSmith see the [] bit
# [23:50] <chaals> anne: doesn't the service also register types it accepts? I think you have teh same system.
# [23:50] * timeless [ XXX scribe suspects that the scribe script has reached its breaking point ]
# [23:51] * timeless my local version is mostly working
# [23:51] <chaals> adrianba: if I ublish a url of something with an image, do I mean the page or the image on it?
# [23:51] * timeless i have a local copy of scribe.pl which is less unhappy
# [23:51] * timeless mostly
# [23:51] <chaals> anne: thinki it makes more sense to send both.
# [23:52] <chaals> gbillock: one way to do both is an option we discarded (can reconsider). To integrate with types, we intend that it be possible to match a microdata type with complete schema capability...
# [23:52] <chaals> ... contact might be name+phone, or might have a lot more data there.
# [23:52] <chaals> ... idea is that user has a mental image of the service they are using.
# [23:52] * timeless MikeSmith http://pastebin.mozilla.org/1610799
# [23:52] <chaals> ... and so builds expectatoions of what is going to happen.
# [23:52] * MikeSmith timeless interesting
# [23:53] <chaals> ... There is flexibility in terms of how much payload is available to fill in for the service.
# [23:53] * timeless that was the discussion we had earlier
# [23:53] <chaals> ... weakness and strength.
# [23:53] * Joins: yosuke (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [23:53] * timeless it's a known bug and has something to do w/ timezones of the script running on the server
# [23:53] <chaals> ... if your phone accepts a contact with no phone number., that seems wrong
# [23:53] <chaals> q?
# [23:53] * Zakim sees DanD, tantek on the speaker queue
# [23:53] * timeless it's less of an issue, the bigger one is me trying to get certain other ducks in order
# [23:53] <chaals> shepazu: Could you use this across multiple modalities?
# [23:54] <chaals> gbillock: We envisage the user agent being able to do things like use NFC to send stuff...
# [23:54] * MikeSmith timeless cf. end of http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html
# [23:54] <chaals> DanD: Who is in control of selecting the directory of services?
# [23:54] * timeless right, my output is less bad
# [23:55] <chaals> gbillock: User Agent. Services the user has installed that meet the required intent.
# [23:55] <chaals> DanD: who provides the list of options for what to install?
# [23:55] * timeless same script, different timezone (we think, i haven't spent sufficient time analyzing that failure)
# [23:55] <shepazu> q+ to ask about a site registering itself as a service
# [23:55] * Zakim sees DanD, tantek, shepazu on the speaker queue
# [23:55] <chaals> ... on mine it is meaningful - it gives me information about where the suggestions are coming from.
# [23:55] <chaals> ... good this is under control of the browser for sense of trust, user needs to know where the browser is going.
# [23:56] <chaals> ... side effect of that control limits discovery of other services which may be an issue.
# [23:56] <chaals> ... (vendor lock-in...)
# [23:56] * Quits: Lachy (Lachy@84.215.193.30) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
# [23:56] <chaals> gbillock: Think client will be able to attach suggestions.
# [23:56] <timeless> q+ to note WAI concerns and Portability/Modality concerns
# [23:56] * Zakim sees DanD, tantek, shepazu, timeless on the speaker queue
# [23:57] <chaals> DanD: more appropriate for app developer to recommend the directory, rather than having the user search the web. But you have to put the destination for searching into the user experience
# [23:57] <chaals> zakim, please close the queue
# [23:57] <Zakim> ok, chaals, the speaker queue is closed
# [23:57] <chaals> gbillock: this is a stock UI for inline installs. if there are suggestions from teh client side they show differently. Being able to attribute stuff comprehensibly matters...
# [23:57] <MikeSmith> q?
# [23:57] * Zakim sees DanD, tantek, shepazu, timeless on the speaker queue
# [23:58] * Quits: rogerk (Adium@108.7.70.167) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [23:58] <MikeSmith> ack DanD
# [23:58] * Zakim sees tantek, shepazu, timeless on the speaker queue
# [23:58] <timeless> s/teh/the/
# [23:58] <chaals> DanD: deja vu here - this is uddi/wsdl/etc again...
# [23:58] <chaals> ... there were some good developments done there, so looking for the lessons there is a good idea.
# [23:58] <chaals> ack tantek
# [23:58] <Zakim> tantek, you wanted to ask how broad is the scope of intents and cross-application services, e.g. some examples discussed seem similar to OpenDoc/OLE, especially in local client-app
# [23:59] <Zakim> ... to client-app content/service handling.
# [23:59] * Zakim sees shepazu, timeless on the speaker queue
# [23:59] <chaals> tantek: deoms are awesome. scope is broader than I ahd understood. How broad is the scope intended to be?
# [00:00] <chaals> gbillock: spec is 'how pages invoke intents or get them delivered'
# Session Close: Wed May 02 00:00:35 2012

The end :)