/irc-logs / w3c / #webapps / 2012-05-02 / end

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# Session Start: Wed May 02 00:00:36 2012
# Session Ident: #webapps
# [00:00] <chaals> ... leaves it up to the browser
# [00:00] <chaals> tantek: web apps, client apps, installed web apps are all in scope?
# [00:00] <timeless> present+ Ryosuke_Niwa
# [00:00] <chaals> ... that page has all the ability of HTML to send data anywhere, on the web or locally.
# [00:01] <chaals> tantek: including native apps?
# [00:01] <chaals> gbillock: in principle yes. we haven't done that yet, but it is in scope.
# [00:01] <timeless> s/ordinho/odinho/
# [00:02] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [00:02] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [00:02] <chaals> kam: scoped to websites, but could do this if there is demand.
# [00:02] <chaals> Paul_Kinlan: DAP is interested in this. We have been focused on webapp interactions. UA can provide a bridge to add native apps.
# [00:02] <chaals> tantek: do you know about opendoc and ola?
# [00:02] <timeless> s/PaulKinlan:/Paul_Kinlan:/g
# [00:03] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [00:03] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [00:03] <chaals> ... systems for applications doing this. Have you looked at that?
# [00:03] <chaals> gbillock: nope.
# [00:03] <chaals> q?
# [00:03] * Zakim sees shepazu, timeless on the speaker queue
# [00:03] <chaals> ... there is IPR in that area that should be looked at.
# [00:04] <chaals> ... (I know because I did some of it)
# [00:04] <chaals> ack shepazu
# [00:04] <Zakim> shepazu, you wanted to ask about a site registering itself as a service
# [00:04] * Zakim sees timeless on the speaker queue
# [00:05] <chaals> shepazu: I am on flickr, it wants to tell me it can be a picker service. Is there something that lets them put something on their page so I can register it when I go there?
# [00:05] <chaals> gbillock: yep.
# [00:05] <timeless> s/I ahd/I had/
# [00:05] <tantek> for the minutes - s/ola/OLE
# [00:06] <chaals> ... right now we have experimental stuff, but yes we want to be able to do that through declarative syntax for the page.
# [00:06] <timeless> s|for the minutes - s/ola/OLE||
# [00:06] * chaals thanks tantek
# [00:06] <timeless> s/ola/OLE/
# [00:06] <chaals> shepazu: if i share stuff with twitter, can I make that a default rather than picking every time?
# [00:06] <chaals> gbillock: spec leaves that to user agent, we expect that to be possible.
# [00:07] <chaals> timeless: having something is important to avoid security issues - you don't want a spamming site to get your twitter
# [00:07] <chaals> shepazu: there should be a user involvement to make sure
# [00:07] * tantek feels he was obligated to disclose once it seemed like the scope of Google's web intents was broad enough to include functionality from OpenDoc / OLE which have patents (some of which I was (co)inventor on).
# [00:07] <chaals> gbillock: there is.
# [00:07] <timeless> ack me
# [00:07] <Zakim> timeless, you wanted to note WAI concerns and Portability/Modality concerns
# [00:07] <chaals> ack time
# [00:07] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [00:07] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [00:08] <ArtB> q+ Web Intents on DAP f2f agenda in July
# [00:08] * Zakim whispers to ArtB that the speaker queue has been closed
# [00:08] * shepazu notes "nice product placement" to timeless
# [00:09] <chaals> timeless: if the client page is making a request and can force a directry that doesn't work for my device, or have an accessibility requirement for specialist services, or want a different language,
# [00:09] <chaals> ... the client might not have the right answer for the user.
# [00:09] <chaals> DanD: we already have scripts taht pick stuff...
# [00:09] <chaals> timeless: right, but they are not necessarily useful for a new device.
# [00:09] <timeless> s/taht/that/
# [00:10] <chaals> DanD: agree there may be an incompatibility. Would rather have app eveloper test and verify than have the user agent assume the thing will work.
# [00:10] <timeless> s/eveloper/developer/
# [00:10] <timeless> [ Break until 3:30 ]
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# [00:12] <plh> -> https://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=42538 Current group participants
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# [00:40] <timeless> Topic: Push SMS
# [00:41] <timeless> chaals: we have an item in the Charter for Server Sent Events
# [00:41] * Joins: shepazu (shepazu@128.30.52.169)
# [00:41] <timeless> ... the to things people have come up with are Push SMS stuff
# [00:41] <timeless> ... and a notification that can wake up / remotely start an app (web page)
# [00:41] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@205.248.100.252)
# [00:41] <timeless> ... i'll hand the floor to bryan
# [00:42] * chaals yosuke
# [00:42] <chaals> [Yosuke Funahashi introduces himself - co-chair of TV/Web IG]
# [00:43] <timeless> yosuke: Yosuke Funahashi
# [00:43] <timeless> s|Funahashi|Funahashi, co-chair of TV/Web IG|
# [00:43] * Joins: miketaylr (miketaylr@70.112.101.224)
# [00:43] <timeless> bryan: I've taken the UCs and broken them into a set of
# [00:43] <ArtB> UCs: http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/May2012F2FMeeting/Push
# [00:43] <timeless> ... more discrete things which i'll call proto requirements/ideas
# [00:44] * Joins: anne (annevk@205.248.100.252)
# [00:44] <timeless> s|UCs: http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/May2012F2FMeeting/Push|-> http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/May2012F2FMeeting/Push Push UCs|
# [00:44] * Joins: tross (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [00:44] <timeless> ... there's a link to a w3-ified draft from within OMA
# [00:44] <ArtB> Draft Bryan mentioned: http://ddpsdk.net/tm/w3c/eventsource-push.html
# [00:44] <timeless> ... it doesn't address all of the requirements
# [00:45] <timeless> s|Draft Bryan mentioned: http://ddpsdk.net/tm/w3c/eventsource-push.html|-> http://ddpsdk.net/tm/w3c/eventsource-push.html EventSource Push (Draft)|
# [00:45] <timeless> ... I've built this, and have a demo (which I won't try to show today)
# [00:45] <timeless> ... and there will be a social network demo called "Mobile Social Networking"
# [00:45] * Joins: gbillock (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [00:45] <timeless> ... at XXX
# [00:46] <timeless> ... we noticed that XMPP connections burn battery real fast
# [00:46] <timeless> ... I want to get notifications of things that are really asynchronous
# [00:46] <timeless> ... e.g. an auction watcher
# [00:46] <timeless> ... doesn't want to keep an application open
# [00:47] <timeless> ... until recently, you couldn't run a browser in the background on mobile devices
# [00:47] <timeless> ... the next UC is a WebRTC client
# [00:47] <timeless> ... the phone application/dialer
# [00:47] <timeless> ... it doesn't take over the screen until it needs to
# [00:47] <timeless> ... we need some way to register for wake up events
# [00:47] <timeless> ... we were looking for a way that was more seemless
# [00:48] <timeless> ... @ TPAC:WebApps last year
# [00:48] <timeless> ... there was a request that things not be so specific
# [00:48] <timeless> ... my proposal was based on my experience w/ SMS/OMA Push
# [00:49] <timeless> ... but we need to create a mapping between text-eventstream and these other things
# [00:49] <timeless> ... I ran into an issue involving blank lines
# [00:50] <timeless> ... Maybe we end up building on a processing model
# [00:50] <timeless> [ bryan is reading through the Push "Derived Requirements" section ]
# [00:51] * Joins: tantek (tantek@205.248.100.252)
# [00:52] <timeless> bryan: there needs to be a way to provide filters
# [00:52] <chaals> q+ to ask where we go with this now...
# [00:52] * Zakim whispers to chaals that the speaker queue has been closed
# [00:52] <chaals> zakim, open the queue
# [00:52] <Zakim> ok, chaals, the speaker queue is open
# [00:52] <chaals> q+ to ask where we go with this now...
# [00:52] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
# [00:52] * Joins: yosuke (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [00:52] <timeless> ... the ability to deliver information to a web app before it shows a UI
# [00:53] <timeless> ... my draft proposal integrates CORS
# [00:53] <timeless> s/integrates/incorporates/
# [00:53] <timeless> ... to apply the browser security model
# [00:54] <chaals> s/Push SMS/Push notification/
# [00:54] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minues
# [00:54] <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'draft minues', timeless. Try /msg RRSAgent help
# [00:54] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [00:54] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [00:54] <timeless> q?
# [00:54] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
# [00:54] <timeless> ack chaals
# [00:54] <Zakim> chaals, you wanted to ask where we go with this now...
# [00:54] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [00:55] <timeless> chaals: when this came into the charter
# [00:55] <timeless> ... i'm not sure if the people who wanted it are here
# [00:55] <timeless> [ sicking raises his hand ]
# [00:55] <timeless> chaals: you have a draft idea of a spec
# [00:55] <timeless> bryan: that may be fairly localized in application
# [00:55] <timeless> chaals: do you have this in web apps space?
# [00:55] <timeless> bryan: not yet
# [00:55] <timeless> chaals: so you're planning to edit this
# [00:55] <timeless> bryan: i could definitely support that
# [00:55] * ArtB notes Bryan's draft spec is: http://ddpsdk.net/tm/w3c/eventsource-push.html
# [00:56] <timeless> ... i'm looking for expert input
# [00:56] <timeless> q?
# [00:56] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [00:56] <sicking> q+
# [00:56] * Zakim sees sicking on the speaker queue
# [00:56] <timeless> chaals: next step is to put it into w3 space
# [00:56] <timeless> ... and put it in the list of work items
# [00:56] <timeless> bryan: i'm hoping to have a conversation on things
# [00:56] <timeless> chaals: sure, but you start with an ED
# [00:56] <timeless> bryan: sure
# [00:56] <timeless> ack sicking
# [00:56] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [00:56] * shepazu notes that maybe Bryan's spec link should be on the record, ArtB ?
# [00:57] <timeless> sicking: "We"
# [00:57] <timeless> ... (loosely)
# [00:57] <sicking> http://jbalogh.me/2012/01/30/push-notifications/
# [00:57] <timeless> ... also have a draft proposal
# [00:57] * timeless shepazu i think it's already there
# [00:57] * timeless it is
# [00:57] <timeless> sicking: it doesn't cover everything from the proposal
# [00:57] <timeless> ... we could add things
# [00:57] <timeless> ... an application can say "i want to be able to send push notifications to the browser"
# [00:58] <timeless> ... the user agent allows the user to authorize that
# [00:58] <timeless> ... and if authorized, a URL is made available to the application
# [00:58] <timeless> ... and then it can use whichever applicable means to send messages back to the UA/page
# [00:59] <timeless> ... it should be integratable with Apple's push protocol
# [00:59] <timeless> ... currently you can't deliver that message to a particular page
# [00:59] <timeless> ... it shows up on the screen
# [00:59] <timeless> ... but when the user clicks on it, it goes to a certain page
# [00:59] <timeless> ... we could let pages say they don't want things on screen
# [01:00] <timeless> bryan: it sounds like OMAPush
# [01:00] <timeless> ... service indication
# [01:00] <timeless> ... (pre 2000)
# [01:00] <timeless> ... a text message and a url
# [01:00] <timeless> ... that wasn't directed to an application
# [01:00] <timeless> ... We added a way for an application to listen directly
# [01:00] <timeless> ... the key to OMAPush is that it uses Tokenization
# [01:00] <timeless> ... in 4 SMS payloads, you get up to 2k of content
# [01:00] <timeless> ... which isn't achievable without tokenization
# [01:01] <timeless> chaals: so it sounds like we have two sort of half starting points
# [01:01] <timeless> ... going into the same direction
# [01:01] <timeless> ... so the action is to look at them together
# [01:01] <timeless> bryan: i can look at mozilla's draft
# [01:02] <timeless> ... there's interest in integrating Apple's Push Notification
# [01:02] <timeless> ... and C2DM
# [01:02] <timeless> ... (Google's)
# [01:02] <timeless> ... that's where it stands
# [01:02] <timeless> ACTION bryan to look at proposals and start editing
# [01:02] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [01:02] <trackbot> Created ACTION-660 - Look at proposals and start editing [on Bryan Sullivan - due 2012-05-08].
# [01:02] <timeless> magnus: the proposal is to extend Server Sent Events
# [01:02] <timeless> ... with event streams
# [01:02] <timeless> ... but you're not limiting to that
# [01:03] <timeless> chaals: we're not limiting to that
# [01:03] <timeless> bryan: it may, but i found hoops, websockets may be better
# [01:03] <timeless> DanD: I'm a member of WebRTC
# [01:03] <timeless> ... this came up as a requirement
# [01:03] <timeless> ... it got escalated to WebApps
# [01:03] <timeless> ... we did some analysis
# [01:03] <tantek> <aside> chaals, follow-up from your question about Application Manifest, we (Mozilla) do have someone working on a spec, and are iterating in public with intent to submit to Web Apps WG for inclusion/publication: http://mozilla.github.com/webapps-spec/ cc:sheapzu,sicking </aside>
# [01:04] <timeless> ... it's nice to have
# [01:04] <timeless> ... but there are emerging technologies which will make it a necessary feature
# [01:04] <chaals> [reply to your aside: Cool. We chairs are waiting for that :) ]
# [01:04] <timeless> bryan: in this draft, you'll see some text examples
# [01:04] <timeless> ... i'll send a link to the github which has a demo
# [01:05] <timeless> Arnaud: is there a speed requirement?
# [01:05] <timeless> bryan: i haven't seen any request for a service delivery deadline
# [01:05] <timeless> ... things tend to happen within a second or two
# [01:06] <timeless> Arnaud: if you use SMS as a bearer
# [01:06] <timeless> ... it can be slow
# [01:06] <timeless> sicking: Apple's has no promise of delivery at all
# [01:06] <timeless> bryan: it's best effort
# [01:07] <timeless> Topic: File API
# [01:07] <timeless> chaals: where is Mr. Arun?
# [01:07] <timeless> sicking: this is a side project for arun
# [01:07] * Joins: krisk (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [01:08] <timeless> ... he hasn't been able to work on this for a while
# [01:08] <timeless> ... he did a spurt of editing LC feedback into the spec
# [01:08] <timeless> ... i have to work off memory of the outstanding issues
# [01:08] <timeless> ... the big one is One-Time-Only
# [01:08] <timeless> ... and revoking
# [01:08] * ArtB notes File API bugz: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=WebAppsWG&component=File%20API&;resolution=---
# [01:09] * timeless asks ArtB to write: -> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=WebAppsWG&component=File%20API&;resolution=--- File API Bugs
# [01:09] <chaals> -> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=WebAppsWG&component=File%20API&;resolution=--- File API bugz
# [01:09] * timeless nm, thanks chaals
# [01:09] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [01:09] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [01:09] <timeless> sicking: I think there was something else
# [01:09] <timeless> adrianba: there was the Close thing
# [01:10] <timeless> sicking: i think Close has the same problem space as Revoke
# [01:10] * chaals wonders if we should call for an assitant editor...
# [01:10] <timeless> adrianba: how concrete do we have to be
# [01:10] <timeless> ... and how interoperable do we need to be
# [01:11] <timeless> ... in IE we have a behavior where something may be cached in the decoded Image cache
# [01:11] * Joins: bryan (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [01:11] <timeless> sicking: i suspect we'll want to define those things
# [01:12] <timeless> ... I suspect we'll be done with the File spec
# [01:12] <chaals> q+ to generalise Adrian's question onto tomorrow's agenda
# [01:12] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
# [01:12] <timeless> ... before we have those cases done for Images
# [01:12] <timeless> ... I suspect that long term we'll want to and require behaviors
# [01:12] <timeless> ack chaals
# [01:12] <Zakim> chaals, you wanted to generalise Adrian's question onto tomorrow's agenda
# [01:12] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [01:13] <timeless> chaals: can we bake a stable version of the spec
# [01:13] <timeless> ... that gives a useful stable reference
# [01:13] <timeless> ... while we work forward
# [01:13] <timeless> adrianba: there's a difference
# [01:13] <timeless> ... between is it valuable to have specs that are roughly stable and useful
# [01:13] <timeless> ... and there's a part of a spec where there are so many variations based on underlying platforms
# [01:14] <timeless> ... saying for those things maybe we don't have to specify them maybe ever
# [01:14] <timeless> sicking: i suspect we'll want to define this
# [01:14] <timeless> ... i suspect for image cache, we probably have the same issue
# [01:14] <timeless> ... and if you hadn't brought it up
# [01:14] <timeless> ... we may not have tested it
# [01:14] <timeless> adrianba: web developers care
# [01:14] <timeless> ... and they care when it breaks them
# [01:14] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
# [01:14] <chaals> s/can we bake/I would like to take this point out of this discussion and put on the agenda tomorrow whether we can/
# [01:14] <timeless> ericu: they care if we underspecify it
# [01:15] <timeless> ... and it works in one browser and breaks in other browsers
# [01:15] <timeless> sicking: it'll affect every place that uses urls, and every place that reads out of blobs/files
# [01:15] <timeless> ... there are certain things we should define
# [01:15] <timeless> ... there are going to be lots of things we're going to miss
# [01:15] <timeless> ... some of these things should be specified outside the File API spec
# [01:15] <timeless> ... some i suspect we'll get to eventually
# [01:15] <timeless> shepazu: if there are several contentious issues
# [01:16] <timeless> ... and some that will be tricky to do
# [01:16] <timeless> ... maybe we should bring on an additional editor
# [01:16] <timeless> chaals: this isn't an editor issue
# [01:16] <timeless> sicking: it isn't an issue of the File API spec
# [01:16] <timeless> ... it's up to the other specifications to accept a hand off
# [01:16] <timeless> chaals: should we put out a call for a second editor
# [01:16] <timeless> ericu: oh, we have a second editor
# [01:16] <timeless> [ sicking raises hand ]
# [01:17] <timeless> shepazu: you're just very busy
# [01:17] <timeless> sicking: there's a very small amount of this that will go into the File API
# [01:17] <timeless> ... for One-Load-Only
# [01:17] <timeless> ... do we revoke at first access or at end of microtask
# [01:17] <timeless> ... the other is...
# [01:17] <timeless> ... if you start loading, and then you revoke
# [01:18] <timeless> ... should that load continue
# [01:18] <timeless> ... i think on the second one, i don't think we've gotten feedback from you, Microsoft
# [01:18] <timeless> adrianba: oh, I can give you feedback:
# [01:18] <timeless> ... once we've started, it's very hard to stop
# [01:18] <timeless> sicking: ok, so once a load has started it should finish
# [01:18] <timeless> adrianba: for Close
# [01:18] <timeless> ... if you're doing File Reader on a Blob
# [01:18] <timeless> ... the point of calling Close
# [01:19] <timeless> ... is to say you really want to let go of the resources
# [01:19] <timeless> sicking: i considered them to be the same
# [01:19] <timeless> ... but we can keep them as separate
# [01:19] <timeless> ... we should figure out
# [01:20] <timeless> sicking: the first thing is ArrayBuffer v. ArrayBufferView
# [01:20] <timeless> ... i dislike the topic enough that i haven't followed the discussion
# [01:20] <timeless> Josh_Soref: +1
# [01:20] <timeless> sicking: I suspect that we should be using ArrayBufferView
# [01:20] <timeless> adrianba: we can't do that soon
# [01:20] <timeless> sicking: i'm happy to leave it as an OR
# [01:20] <timeless> adrianba: I agree that it seems like it should be the right thing
# [01:21] <timeless> ... by the time we could change
# [01:21] <timeless> ... ECMA TC39 could progress
# [01:21] <timeless> sicking: I suspect that even if TC39 does something, it'll be called as ArrayBufferView or subclassed as that
# [01:21] <timeless> ... my feeling is we do ArrayBufferView now
# [01:22] <timeless> ... and if something new is added, we can add it later
# [01:22] <timeless> adrianba: do we always know
# [01:22] <timeless> ... when you use these things
# [01:22] <timeless> ... can we reliably feature detect support for these?
# [01:22] <timeless> sicking: the Blob constructor is hard to detect
# [01:22] <timeless> anne: you could just try
# [01:23] <timeless> chaals: you guys drink beer tonight and solve the problems
# [01:23] <timeless> anne: you're going to have the need for feature detection all the time
# [01:23] <timeless> ... it hasn't been a real problem in practice
# [01:23] <timeless> adrianba: i think these are relatively new features that haven't been detected
# [01:23] <timeless> anne: you need browser sniffing anyway
# [01:23] <timeless> adrianba: for incremental things
# [01:24] <timeless> ... for response-type in XHR, that's a good feature detect
# [01:24] <timeless> ... set and retrieve
# [01:24] <timeless> ... some things we're adding will be harder for feature detection
# [01:24] <timeless> ... there's an envelop thing with Must understand
# [01:24] <timeless> ... and things which aren't
# [01:24] <timeless> chaals: I really do mean: have a beer tonight, talk about this
# [01:25] <timeless> PaulC: i'd like a beer too
# [01:25] <timeless> anne: we can discuss it tomorrow
# [01:25] <timeless> ... feature detection is the agenda item
# [01:25] <timeless> ericu: File Writer, Locking
# [01:25] <timeless> ... sicking has a new proposal
# [01:25] <timeless> ... but we need to discuss it on the list
# [01:25] <timeless> [ Break until 4:30 ]
# [01:28] * Quits: Paul_Kinlan (Paul_Kinla@205.248.100.252) (Client exited)
# [01:29] * Quits: komoroske (komoroske@216.239.45.4) (Quit: komoroske)
# [01:39] <timeless> Topic: IME
# [01:40] <ArtB> -> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ime-api/raw-file/default/use-cases/Overview.html IME UCs and Requirements
# [01:40] * timeless :)
# [01:41] <timeless> MikeSmith: I worked with Kenji and Hironori
# [01:41] <timeless> ... the main cases where IMEs are important are Japan and Chinese
# [01:41] <timeless> s/Chinese/China/
# [01:41] <timeless> ... and to some extent Korea
# [01:41] <timeless> chaals: and Vietnam
# [01:41] <timeless> MikeSmith: since you don't have 10,000 keys on your keyboard
# [01:41] <timeless> ... you type on your keyboard, it goes into a buffer
# [01:41] <timeless> ... and gets converted
# [01:41] <timeless> ... into Kanji
# [01:42] <timeless> ... you don't want an IME to interfere with Games
# [01:42] <timeless> ... or other things
# [01:42] <timeless> ... similar to Screen Orientation/Pointer Lock
# [01:42] <timeless> ... interactively typing and getting suggestions from a web application
# [01:42] <timeless> ... like Google Suggest
# [01:42] * miketaylr is now known as miketaylrawaylol
# [01:43] <timeless> ... completing against things in a database in real time
# [01:43] <timeless> ... while you're completing against a database, you're potentially also completing against the IME
# [01:43] <timeless> Josh_Soref: most mobile devices also have IMEs for word completion for Latin languages
# [01:43] <timeless> MikeSmith: Interaction
# [01:44] <timeless> ... some people want feature compatibility with other runtimes
# [01:44] <timeless> ... Flash has the ability to interact with the System IME
# [01:44] <timeless> Josh_Soref: System IMEs are BUGGY AND INSECURE
# [01:44] <timeless> MikeSmith: as a game developer you can use this
# [01:45] <timeless> ... some people want to be able to provide a web based IME
# [01:45] <timeless> ... if you want to create a complete branded and consistent UE
# [01:45] <timeless> ... then if your application includes text input
# [01:45] <timeless> ... and you want to control IME behavior in your application
# [01:45] <timeless> ... then you want to be able to brand and style that
# [01:46] <timeless> yosuke: a lot of systems don't have IMEs installed
# [01:46] <timeless> ... and users don't know / can't install them
# [01:46] <timeless> ... so a web site might want to provide that
# [01:46] <timeless> ... installing that may require privileges
# [01:46] <timeless> MikeSmith: i don't know why we didn't put that one
# [01:47] <timeless> Josh_Soref: google provides that for Translate for Hebrew
# [01:47] <timeless> chaals: Yandex does that for Cyrillic
# [01:47] <timeless> MikeSmith: Hixie didn't think this was the right approach
# [01:47] <timeless> tantek: there's an existing CSS property ime-mode
# [01:47] <timeless> ... from IE5/Firefox
# [01:47] <timeless> ... that should address your Games case
# [01:48] <timeless> ... it's in CSS3 UI LC
# [01:48] <chaals> q+ ryosuke
# [01:48] * Zakim sees ryosuke on the speaker queue
# [01:48] <timeless> ... it's at risk
# [01:48] <timeless> ... there's a simple property there
# [01:48] <timeless> ... if there are UCs that are easy to add to them
# [01:48] <timeless> ... the spec is being locked down
# [01:48] * yosuke s/yosuke/ryosuke/
# [01:48] <tantek> http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-css3-ui-20120117/#ime-mode
# [01:48] <chaals> q+ anne
# [01:48] * Zakim sees ryosuke, anne on the speaker queue
# [01:48] <timeless> s/yosuke/ryosuke/
# [01:48] <chaals> ack ry
# [01:48] * Zakim sees anne on the speaker queue
# [01:49] <timeless> ryosuke: there's no concept of IME on/off
# [01:49] * miketaylrawaylol is now known as miketaylr
# [01:49] <timeless> ... when you switch languages/layouts
# [01:49] <timeless> ... i don't think this new api addresses that either
# [01:49] <timeless> ... maybe there's a way to include that
# [01:49] <chaals> ack anne
# [01:49] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [01:49] <timeless> anne: given that web pages already make their own UIs
# [01:50] <timeless> ... it'd be helpful if there was an explanation as to why something is needed
# [01:50] * hober rniwa: :)
# [01:50] <chaals> q+
# [01:50] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
# [01:50] <timeless> s/ryosuke:/rniwa:/
# [01:50] <ArtB> -> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ime-api/raw-file/tip/Overview.html IME ED
# [01:50] <timeless> chaals: when you implement it, what happens in practice is it doesn't work
# [01:50] <timeless> q?
# [01:50] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
# [01:50] <rniwa> hober: ?
# [01:50] <timeless> s/hober: ?//
# [01:51] * timeless rniwa: hober was telling me the right irc nick
# [01:51] <rniwa> timeless: ah, ok. hober: thanks
# [01:51] * timeless you two are confusing!
# [01:51] <chaals> ack me
# [01:51] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [01:51] <timeless> rniwa: there's some interest in creating SVG editors
# [01:51] <timeless> q+
# [01:51] * Zakim sees timeless on the speaker queue
# [01:51] <timeless> rniwa: you want to be able to type things into the SVG
# [01:52] <timeless> ... and that isn't compatible with Content Editable
# [01:52] <timeless> ack me
# [01:52] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [01:52] * heycam is planning on making contenteditable work with svg text content in firefox btw
# [01:53] <timeless> Josh_Soref: some "system" IMEs are buggy and pushing insecure content into them
# [01:53] * shepazu mentioned that we're adding it to SVG 2, but it wasn't minuted
# [01:53] <rniwa> heycam: that's nice to know :D
# [01:53] <timeless> ... is just as dangerous as pushing data to font engines
# [01:53] <timeless> ... = nice root exploits
# [01:53] <timeless> Topic: URL
# [01:53] <tantek> perhaps consider an informative reference to CSS3-UI for the 'ime-mode' property
# [01:53] <timeless> s/heycam: that's nice to know :D//
# [01:53] <timeless> MikeSmith: the URL Spec
# [01:53] <ArtB> -> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/url/raw-file/tip/Overview.html URL spec
# [01:53] <timeless> ... the api part
# [01:53] * odinho rniwa: I learned you need to use /me to talk offtopic. Normal talk gets to bepart of the minutes.
# [01:54] <chaals> i/Topic: URL/Mike: We're about ready for a FPWD, the spec is reasonably advanced. Hopefully some time this month.
# [01:54] * rniwa : odinho oops. just realized that.
# [01:54] <timeless> ... if you're going to expose URL information
# [01:54] <timeless> ... then you want a way to parse them
# [01:54] <timeless> ... the part before this is the algorithm for parsing
# [01:55] <timeless> ... there's a definition of what a URL is
# [01:55] <timeless> ... it isn't defined anywhere
# [01:55] <timeless> ... the first two parts started in the html spec
# [01:55] <timeless> ... but there isn't anything specific
# [01:55] * hober can't we clone abarth and get abaarth to edit the url spec?
# [01:55] * timeless we tried and failed
# [01:56] <tantek> I've done some research on what different specs call the different parts of URLs: http://tantek.com/2011/238/b1/many-ways-slice-url-name-pieces
# [01:56] * timeless PaulC: is the tinny echo for a bridge that isn't going anywhere?
# [01:56] <timeless> Topic: Agenda Bashing
# [01:56] <timeless> chaals: there's a gap for people to wake up
# [01:56] <timeless> ... CORS
# [01:56] <timeless> ... D3E/DOM4
# [01:56] <timeless> ... Testing
# [01:57] <timeless> ... Versions/Stabilize
# [01:57] <timeless> ... -- these points here have dragons
# [01:57] <timeless> ... Feature detection
# [01:57] <timeless> ... -- anne + adrianba 's item
# [01:57] <timeless> ... [ their action was to drink beer ]
# [01:57] * Joins: plh (plh@128.30.52.28)
# [01:57] <timeless> ... Meeting Planning
# [01:58] <timeless> PaulC: when will you do that?
# [01:58] <timeless> ... i'd like to try to be here
# [01:58] <timeless> ... i'd like to have our TPAC plans straight
# [01:58] <timeless> chaals: yes, that being our next meeting
# [01:58] <timeless> ... anything else people want to put in our next meeting?
# [01:58] * Joins: Paul_Kinlan (Paul_Kinla@205.248.100.252)
# [01:58] <timeless> glenn: where are we drinking beer tonight?
# [01:58] <timeless> chaals: that's later in today's agenda
# [01:59] <timeless> ... 9:45-10:15 CORS w/ WebAppSec
# [02:00] <timeless> ... HTML Stuff
# [02:00] <timeless> ... Index DB
# [02:00] <timeless> ... [ real item ]
# [02:00] <timeless> ... Full screen
# [02:00] <timeless> anne: 10 minutes
# [02:01] <timeless> ArtB: what's HTML?
# [02:01] <timeless> krisk: Hixie specs (Sockets, Workers, ...)
# [02:01] <timeless> chaals: Lunch
# [02:01] <timeless> ... Feature detection/stability
# [02:02] <timeless> ... Testing
# [02:02] <timeless> ... Meetings
# [02:02] <timeless> ... - wrap up + beer
# [02:05] <krisk> Tied House Brewery & Cafe 954 Villa Street Mountain View, CA 94041 (650) 965-2739
# [02:05] <timeless> chaals: thanks all
# [02:05] <timeless> [ Adjourned ]
# [02:05] <timeless> RRSAgent: make minutes
# [02:05] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [02:05] * Quits: DanD (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
# [02:05] <timeless> trackbot, end meeting
# [02:05] * trackbot is ending a teleconference
# [02:05] <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
# [02:05] <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
# [02:06] * Quits: Arnaud (Arnaud@205.248.100.252) (Quit: Arnaud)
# [02:06] <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
# [02:06] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html trackbot
# [02:06] <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
# [02:06] <RRSAgent> I see 11 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-actions.rdf :
# [02:06] <RRSAgent> ACTION: chaals to bug AC reps of ex-members to re-join after new charter [1]
# [02:06] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-irc#T16-32-10
# [02:06] * Quits: shepazu (shepazu@128.30.52.169) (Quit: shepazu)
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# [02:06] <RRSAgent> ACTION: Art start a CfC to stop work on From-Origin spec [2]
# [02:06] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-irc#T17-19-42
# [02:06] <RRSAgent> ACTION: Art start a CfC to publish a FPWD of Fullscreen spec; coordinate with CSS WG [3]
# [02:06] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-irc#T17-23-30
# [02:06] <RRSAgent> ACTION: Art start CfC for FPWD + LCWD of Gamepad spec [4]
# [02:06] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-irc#T17-25-02
# [02:06] <RRSAgent> ACTION: Art start CfC to publish FPWD of IME spec [5]
# [02:06] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-irc#T17-26-57
# [02:06] <RRSAgent> ACTION: Art start CfC for Pointer spec [6]
# [02:06] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-irc#T17-28-00
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# [02:06] <RRSAgent> ACTION: Art start a CfC to publish a FPWD of Shadow DOM [7]
# [02:06] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-irc#T17-35-02
# [02:06] <RRSAgent> ACTION: Art start a CfC for FPWD of URL spec (Mike to be lead Editor) [8]
# [02:06] * Quits: shan (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
# [02:06] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-irc#T17-37-54
# [02:06] * Quits: chaals (chaals@205.248.100.252) (Quit: chaals)
# [02:06] <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow find a Test Facilitator for Web Messaging CR [9]
# [02:06] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-irc#T17-42-40-1
# [02:06] <RRSAgent> ACTION: Barstow start CfC to create a WG Note for XBL2 (and Chaals will do the work) [10]
# [02:07] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-irc#T18-22-24
# [02:07] <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow start a CfC to publish a FPWD of Web Components Explainer (when an ED with TR template is available) [11]
# [02:07] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-irc#T19-16-17
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# [18:08] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/05/02-webapps-irc
# [18:08] <ArtB> Scribe: Josh_Soref
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# [18:09] <ArtB> ScribeNick: timeless
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# [18:10] <Arno> present+ Arnaud_Braud
# [18:10] <ArtB> Meeting: WebApps WG f2f Meeting
# [18:10] <ArtB> Date: 2 May 2012
# [18:10] <ArtB> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/May2012F2FMeeting#Agenda_May_2
# [18:10] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@205.248.100.252)
# [18:11] <ArtB> Chair: Art_Barstow, Charles_McCathieNevile
# [18:12] <ArtB> Present+ Art_Barstow, Charles_McCathieNevile, Philippe_LeHegaret, Glenn_Adams, Josh_Soref, Tony_Ross, Mike_Smith, Paul_Cotton, Anne_VanKesteteren, Odin_Horthe, Magnus_Olsson, Adrian_Bateman, Kris_Krueger
# [18:12] <ArtB> Present+ Bryan_Sullivan
# [18:13] <ArtB> Present+ Ryosuke_Niwa
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# [18:14] <ArtB> Present+ Eric_Uhrhane
# [18:14] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [18:14] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/02-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
# [18:14] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make log Public
# [18:14] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, ArtB
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# [18:21] <ArtB> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webappsec/2012May/0006.html CORS Comments from Jeff Hodges
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# [18:23] <ArtB> Present+ Yosuke_Funahashi
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# [18:26] <chaals> [Waiting for the local people to turn up. Meeting delayed until 9.45]
# [18:29] <ArtB> Present+ Doug_Schepers
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# [18:32] <magnus> Present+ Magnus_Olsson
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# [18:33] <ArtB> Present+ Tantek_Celik
# [18:33] <bryan> present+ Bryan_Sullivan (bryan)
# [18:34] <chaals> Present+ chaals
# [18:34] <ArtB> Present+ Ted_OConnor
# [18:34] <chaals> s/ (bryan)//
# [18:34] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [18:34] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/02-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
# [18:34] * chaals notes: DO NOT INCLUDE SPACES
# [18:34] * chaals notes: USE /me TO BEGIN COMMENTS THAT ARE NOT FOR THE RECORD
# [18:35] * chaals e.g. "/me notes ..."
# [18:38] <ArtB> Present+ Joshua_Bell
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# [18:40] * timeless Sam Weinig (@samweinig) on Twitter twitter.com/#!/samweinig
# [18:40] <timeless> Topic: Introductions
# [18:40] <ArtB> Present+ Sam_Weinig
# [18:40] <timeless> chaals: Thanks for turning up
# [18:40] <timeless> ... we could start with fullscreen
# [18:40] <ojan> Present+ Ojan_Vafai
# [18:40] <timeless> Topic: Fullscreen
# [18:40] <timeless> anne: there isn't much
# [18:40] <tross> Present+ Tony_Ross
# [18:41] <timeless> ... i wasn't sure if the CSS WG wanted to publish it
# [18:41] <timeless> ... i don't want to be a part of the CSS WG
# [18:41] <timeless> chaals: tantek is part of the CSS WG
# [18:41] <timeless> ... part of the work is CSS stuff
# [18:41] <timeless> ... you don't need to be part of the group
# [18:41] <timeless> tantek: anne and I worked together, that's probably sufficient
# [18:41] <timeless> anne: it's also being worked on in a CG
# [18:41] <timeless> chaals: it should be published in this WG
# [18:42] <timeless> chaals: we don't have a joint deliverable with the CG
# [18:42] <timeless> tantek: that's why i'm asking if we can publish in both
# [18:42] <timeless> ArtB: i don't think there's a process that says you can't
# [18:42] <timeless> ... CGs can do whatever they want
# [18:42] <timeless> tantek: it's a joint WebApps+CSS WG deliverable
# [18:42] <timeless> ... but the work is being done in the CG
# [18:42] * Joins: whitech (whitech@66.75.249.133)
# [18:42] <timeless> ... we'd like to publish in all 3 places
# [18:43] <timeless> chaals: taking off my chair hat
# [18:43] <timeless> ... opera has a preference that it not be done in lots of places
# [18:43] <ArtB> Present+ Jonas_Sicking
# [18:43] <timeless> ... there's a risk that no one really follows it
# [18:43] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [18:43] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/02-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
# [18:43] <timeless> ... as a chair of this WG, the deliverable has to be published in this WG
# [18:43] <timeless> ... what the CG does is neither our problem, nor our interest
# [18:43] <timeless> shepazu: CGs cannot work on things that WGs are chartered to do
# [18:43] <timeless> tantek: I looked for that, but couldn't find it
# [18:44] <timeless> anne: what if the CG was working on it first?
# [18:44] <timeless> chaals: it wasn't, the CSS WG did it first
# [18:44] <timeless> shepazu: it was never chartered
# [18:44] <ArtB> Present+ Dan_Druta
# [18:44] <timeless> tantek: Mozilla worked on it first
# [18:44] <hober> q+
# [18:44] * Zakim sees hober on the speaker queue
# [18:44] <timeless> shepazu: we'll have to sort this out
# [18:44] <timeless> tantek: last I looked, I didn't find an answer
# [18:44] <timeless> ... I still don't think there's an answer
# [18:44] * Joins: krisk (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [18:44] <timeless> ... I even pointed Ian Jacobs explicitly to that
# [18:44] <timeless> ... I don't see a conflict
# [18:45] <timeless> ... I don't see a technical or political reason not to
# [18:45] <timeless> shepazu: what's the point in working on it there?
# [18:45] <timeless> ... why have a CG to work on it there instead of the WGs?
# [18:45] * Joins: shepazu (shepazu@128.30.52.169)
# [18:45] <timeless> tantek: there are multiple reasons
# [18:45] <timeless> ... one is broader distribution
# [18:45] <timeless> ... another is flexible licensing
# [18:45] <timeless> ... we see no reason not to take advantage of that as well
# [18:45] <timeless> shepazu: i'm not going to get into that
# [18:46] <chaals> q+ paulc
# [18:46] * Zakim sees hober, paulc on the speaker queue
# [18:46] <Ms2ger> shepazu, why not?
# [18:46] <timeless> hober: fullscreen is an interesting part of the web platform
# [18:46] <chaals> ack hober
# [18:46] * Zakim sees paulc on the speaker queue
# [18:46] <chaals> q+
# [18:46] * Zakim sees paulc, chaals on the speaker queue
# [18:46] <Ms2ger> shepazu, that's quite an important point
# [18:46] <timeless> ... w3c is organized into things
# [18:46] <timeless> ... normally things with overlap fall through the cracks
# [18:46] <timeless> ... having it worked on simultaneously sounds great
# [18:46] <timeless> paulc: i'm an observer
# [18:46] <timeless> ... and just interested in the discussion
# [18:47] <timeless> ... are you talking about a simultaneous publication?
# [18:47] <shepazu> Ms2ger, because we have work to do in this expensive f2f time, and that's a rathole
# [18:47] <timeless> chaals: I believe so
# [18:47] <timeless> tantek: i don't see this as a synchronization dependency
# [18:47] <timeless> ... but the document, as it live, gets published
# [18:47] <timeless> ... it's the same document
# [18:47] <timeless> ... there's some w3c legwork
# [18:47] <timeless> chaals: from the chair's perspective.
# [18:47] <timeless> ... i don't care what the CG does
# [18:47] <Ms2ger> shepazu, so is all this charter nonsense
# [18:47] <timeless> q+ Ms2ger
# [18:47] * Zakim sees paulc, chaals, Ms2ger on the speaker queue
# [18:48] <timeless> ack paulc
# [18:48] * Zakim sees chaals, Ms2ger on the speaker queue
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# [18:48] <timeless> ... i think there's a question of what
# [18:48] <odinho> s/Odin_Horthe/Odin_HortheOmdal/
# [18:48] <plh> q+
# [18:48] * Zakim sees chaals, Ms2ger, plh on the speaker queue
# [18:48] <timeless> paulc: when CGs publish, where do they appear?
# [18:48] <timeless> plh: on their website
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# [18:48] <timeless> paulc: but not in TR space?
# [18:48] <timeless> tantek: correct
# [18:48] <Russell_Berkoff> Present+ Russell_Berkoff(Samsung)
# [18:49] <timeless> paulc: so there are two documents
# [18:49] <timeless> tantek: the technical document would be the same
# [18:49] <timeless> ... there would be 2 separate URLs
# [18:49] <odinho> s/Anne_VanKesteteren/Anne_VanKesteren/
# [18:49] <chaals> s/question of what/question about what the policy should be, and as an AC rep Opera has a position on that, but it is a question for W3C's administrative setup, not for this working group/
# [18:49] <timeless> ... just as anyone could take the w3c document and copy it to myfavoritestandards.org
# [18:49] <timeless> anne: i'd prefer to publish WD/EDs from the CG
# [18:49] <timeless> chaals: do you mean you'd prefer the work to happen in the CG
# [18:50] <timeless> ... and this WG to rubberstamp it?
# [18:50] <timeless> anne: no
# [18:50] <timeless> anne: I mean that the ED is the same one as the CG
# [18:50] <timeless> ... there's no status to the ED
# [18:50] <timeless> ... just a place to comment
# [18:50] <timeless> chaals: Administratively, that's not true
# [18:50] <timeless> ... there's a question of IPR
# [18:50] <timeless> ... the IPR setup of a WG is different from a CG
# [18:50] <timeless> anne: Fullscreen is done, so it doesn't matter
# [18:50] <timeless> chaals: it matters because it sets precedent
# [18:51] <timeless> paulc: it matters in the same way that someone comes into a WG
# [18:51] <timeless> ... plumps something down
# [18:51] <timeless> ... and it has IPR of someone in the WG
# [18:51] <timeless> ... you can't say it doesn't matter
# [18:51] <timeless> anne: that was not the question
# [18:51] <timeless> ... what about new comments
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# [18:51] <timeless> paulc: we were talking about the different rules of publishing in the WG
# [18:51] <timeless> tantek: there were 2 questions
# [18:52] <timeless> ... the goal is to be inclusive of feedback, not exclusive
# [18:52] <timeless> ... in terms of IPR, i don't think there's anything different
# [18:52] <timeless> ... the CSS WG proposed joint WebApps+CSS
# [18:52] <timeless> ... i don't think that's a problem for this group
# [18:52] <timeless> ... you're ok with joint publication
# [18:52] <timeless> chaals: no problem, we're chartered for that
# [18:52] <timeless> ... we don't want to do the CSS bits
# [18:52] <timeless> tantek: I hope some of that covers the IPR bits
# [18:52] <plh> q?
# [18:52] * Zakim sees chaals, Ms2ger, plh on the speaker queue
# [18:53] <timeless> chaals: to a first order
# [18:53] <timeless> ... conclusion: you guys are editing this thing
# [18:53] <timeless> ... which we expect to publish soon
# [18:53] <timeless> ... and there's a question of do you plan to finish it
# [18:53] <timeless> anne: fullscreen is finished
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# [18:53] <chaals> ack ms2ger
# [18:53] * Zakim sees chaals, plh on the speaker queue
# [18:53] * timeless pokes Ms2ger
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# [18:53] <Ms2ger> timeless, hmm?
# [18:54] * chaals wonders what ms2ger wanted to say
# [18:54] * chaals notes you were on the q
# [18:54] * weinig did we skip the DOM3/4 stuff on the agenda, or did I miss it?
# [18:54] <Ms2ger> Yeah, timeless q+'d me, dunno why
# [18:54] * timeless wanted someone to answer
# [18:54] <chaals> ack plh
# [18:54] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
# [18:54] <chaals> q-
# [18:54] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:54] <timeless> plh: one different between WG and CG
# [18:54] * Joins: ericu (ericu@216.239.45.130)
# [18:54] <timeless> ... is that WG moves documents along REC track
# [18:55] <timeless> tantek: I believe that's what we committed to by putting it in the charter for the two WGs
# [18:55] <odinho> s/timeless, hmm?//
# [18:55] * ArtB timeless, please set topic to CORS
# [18:55] <timeless> Topic: CORS
# [18:55] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [18:55] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/02-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [18:55] <timeless> chaals: I was going to suggest we do introductions around the room
# [18:55] <timeless> ... we held off doing that earlier
# [18:55] <timeless> krisk: Kris K, Microsoft
# [18:55] <timeless> adrianba: Adrian Bateman, Microsoft
# [18:56] <timeless> shan: Soonbo Han, X1
# [18:56] <timeless> [Scribe gives up]
# [18:56] <timeless> [Introductions]
# [18:56] * timeless asks people to introduce themselves on irc
# [18:56] <ericu> ericu: Eric Uhrhane, Google
# [18:56] <rniwa> Present+ Ryosuke_Niwa
# [18:56] <ArtB> Present+ Michael_Nordman
# [18:56] <ojan> ojan: Ojan Vafai, Google
# [18:57] <ericu> Present+ Joshua_Bell
# [18:57] <timeless> chaals: we have a spec
# [18:57] <timeless> ... it's finished LC
# [18:57] <timeless> ... there might be a few outstanding comments
# [18:57] <timeless> ... then we're ready to make it final
# [18:57] <shan> s/X1/LG Electronics/
# [18:57] <ericu> Present+ ericu
# [18:57] <timeless> ... and maybe start again w/ V2
# [18:58] <timeless> ... anne : where are we?
# [18:58] <timeless> anne: I think LC is over
# [18:58] <timeless> ... there are some comments
# [18:58] <timeless> ... i think they're all editorial
# [18:58] <timeless> ... and we have a test suite
# [18:58] <timeless> ... odinho reminded me this morning
# [18:58] <timeless> ... we have one open technical bug
# [18:58] <timeless> ... i wontfix'd it
# [18:58] <timeless> ... jresche reopened it
# [18:59] <timeless> JeffH: apologies for taking so long
# [18:59] <timeless> ... i spoke w/ anne a long time ago
# [18:59] <timeless> ... face to face
# [18:59] <ArtB> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webappsec/2012May/0006.html Jeff Hodges CORS LC Comments
# [18:59] <timeless> ... i think the spec the way it's architected is technically solid
# [18:59] <timeless> ... but it needs a fair amount of editorial work
# [18:59] * Joins: sicking (chatzilla@205.248.100.252)
# [18:59] <timeless> ... what i concentrated on is the security considerations section that brad contributed
# [18:59] <timeless> ... it was difficult to parse and understand
# [19:00] * Joins: tantek_ (tantek@66.87.4.204)
# [19:00] <timeless> ... so i tried to note my thoughts on that
# [19:00] <timeless> ... and made concrete suggestions on how to rewrite portions
# [19:00] <timeless> chaals: but they're not substantive changes
# [19:00] <timeless> ... this would make the spec easier to read
# [19:00] <krisk> q+
# [19:00] * Zakim sees krisk on the speaker queue
# [19:00] <timeless> JeffH: correct
# [19:00] <timeless> bradh: a simple CORS request
# [19:00] <timeless> ... to most not familiar with the spec
# [19:01] <timeless> ... those reading it for the first time
# [19:01] <timeless> ... is not very simple
# [19:01] <timeless> ... it's based on legacy
# [19:01] <timeless> anne: it's simple, because the other is really more complicated
# [19:01] <timeless> [ laughter ]
# [19:01] <timeless> bradh: i'm not claiming it's hard to use
# [19:01] <ArtB> Present+ Brad_Hill, Jeff_Hodges, Travis_Leithead, Adam_Barth
# [19:01] <timeless> ... where the line between hard and simple
# [19:01] <timeless> ... seems fairly arbitrary
# [19:01] <timeless> anne: simple doesn't have a preflight
# [19:02] <timeless> bradh: but why does this have a preflight and why does this not
# [19:02] <timeless> sicking: it's not just ones that do CORS
# [19:02] <timeless> bradh: it's also non CORS cross-origin
# [19:02] <timeless> sicking: it's based on the reality of how web browsers behave
# [19:02] * Quits: mattkelly (mattwkelly@166.154.0.248) (Ping timeout)
# [19:02] * Joins: tanvi (Adium@63.245.220.11)
# [19:02] <timeless> bradh: i'm wondering if it would be more clear to non browser people
# [19:02] <timeless> ... to define it as a legacy request
# [19:03] <plh> -> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=WebAppsSec&component=CORS&;resolution=--- CORS bugs
# [19:03] <timeless> ericX: there's no property of the request
# [19:03] * Joins: mattkelly (mattwkelly@166.130.14.17)
# [19:03] <timeless> ... it's just based on what browsers already do
# [19:03] <glenn> q+
# [19:03] * Zakim sees krisk, glenn on the speaker queue
# [19:03] * Joins: dveditz (dveditz@205.248.100.252)
# [19:03] * timeless [someone fix ericX: to eric<something> = not ericu ]
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# [19:04] <ekr> I was "Eric Rescorla". handle == "ekr"
# [19:04] <timeless> s/ericX:/ekr:/
# [19:04] <ArtB> Present+ Eric_Rescorla
# [19:04] <timeless> bradh: there's a goal of not adding security footprint
# [19:04] <timeless> ... we're just explaining that we're not adding
# [19:04] <timeless> anne: we could add some comments/notes
# [19:04] <timeless> chaals: it sounds like CORS has a spec
# [19:04] <yosuke> Present+ Yosuke_Funahashi
# [19:05] <timeless> ... but there needs to be better / clearer explanatory material around it
# [19:05] <timeless> ... we could put it in the space
# [19:05] <timeless> s/space/spec/
# [19:05] <timeless> ... we could have someone write a Primer for CORS
# [19:05] <timeless> ... and we could trim the spec down
# [19:05] <timeless> bradh: we talked about in WebAppsSec writing down the Primer
# [19:05] <timeless> ... the spec is intimidatingly large
# [19:05] <timeless> ... lots of browser-eese
# [19:05] <timeless> ... but for the average dev
# [19:06] <timeless> ... it's incomprehensible
# [19:06] <timeless> anne: i don't think they'll actually read it
# [19:06] <timeless> ... they'll got to stack overflow
# [19:06] <timeless> ... a few have read the spec
# [19:06] <timeless> chaals: that's why we're here
# [19:06] <timeless> anne: to some extent, that's why we have the Server section
# [19:06] <timeless> ... which has helped to some extent
# [19:06] <timeless> ... as for "why is this everything the way it is"
# [19:06] <timeless> ... most specs don't explain that
# [19:06] <timeless> ... the reasons can be very peculiar and very wierd
# [19:06] <timeless> ... and it's a lot of work to write that down
# [19:07] <timeless> ... for HTML, there's a similar problem
# [19:07] <timeless> ... the rationale for the various Quirks is strange
# [19:07] <timeless> ... there's a wiki page for Rationale, but it's sparse
# [19:07] <timeless> chaals: the reason not to do it
# [19:07] <timeless> ... is that you take a spec that's fairly daunting
# [19:07] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [19:07] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/02-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [19:07] <timeless> ... and then make it even larger
# [19:07] <timeless> ... and that doesn't make it better
# [19:07] <timeless> ... if WebAppsSpec is volunteering to write a primer
# [19:08] * Quits: Paul_Kinlan (Paul_Kinla@216.239.45.4) (Client exited)
# [19:08] <timeless> ... and you have an Editor, i'm not aware we have one in WebApps
# [19:08] <timeless> bradh: we need to see if we have an editor
# [19:08] <timeless> weinig: if anyone tried to understand why everything in the HTML5 Parsing spec is
# [19:08] <timeless> ... they'd go crazy
# [19:09] <timeless> ekr: this provides the correct analytical framework
# [19:09] <timeless> ... suppose abarth describes
# [19:09] <timeless> ... in W3SP
# [19:09] <timeless> ... that you can set the Foo-Bar header in 50% of browsers
# [19:09] <timeless> ... and then you have a support request
# [19:10] <timeless> ... everytime someone tries to look at security of this problem
# [19:10] <timeless> ... it doesn't make sense
# [19:10] <timeless> ... i'm not saying we need an explanation for each item
# [19:10] <timeless> anne: if it turns out that more headers could be set
# [19:10] <timeless> ... we could add them
# [19:10] <timeless> bradh: how do you make the decision
# [19:10] <timeless> ekr: that's the source of the resistance we're getting
# [19:10] <timeless> ... from people like Mark + Tyler
# [19:10] <timeless> ... they don't agree with this distinction
# [19:11] <timeless> ... it's the claim that we're creating new security problems
# [19:11] <timeless> anne: i think their claim is mostly Credentials
# [19:11] <timeless> ... not simple-request and preflight
# [19:11] <timeless> ... But that we include Credentials and there's a Origin header
# [19:11] <timeless> ... and that you open yourself to Confused Deputy
# [19:11] <timeless> ekr: the defense that bradh's section offers
# [19:11] <timeless> ... is precisely that you could already do that
# [19:11] <timeless> ... or "why it's no worse"
# [19:11] <timeless> anne: but they disagree with that
# [19:12] <timeless> ... because they claim it's not how the web works
# [19:12] <timeless> bradh: we need to note that we can't change how the web works
# [19:12] <chaals> q?
# [19:12] * Zakim sees krisk, glenn on the speaker queue
# [19:12] <timeless> ... or the whole world
# [19:12] <timeless> hober: that's the philosophy of the web platform
# [19:12] <timeless> ack krisk
# [19:12] * Zakim sees glenn on the speaker queue
# [19:12] <ArtB> Present+ Dimitri_Glazkov
# [19:12] <chaals> ack krisk
# [19:12] * Zakim sees glenn on the speaker queue
# [19:12] * Quits: mattkelly (mattwkelly@166.130.14.17) (Ping timeout)
# [19:12] <timeless> krisk: anne you said the testsuite is done and complete
# [19:12] <timeless> ... it seems pretty wide ranging
# [19:12] <timeless> ... a bunch of stuff says "use localhost"
# [19:12] <timeless> ... seems kind of redundant
# [19:13] <timeless> anne: not my problem
# [19:13] <timeless> bradh: we have the whole afternoon to work on the test suite
# [19:13] <timeless> ... i invite you to come and poke in
# [19:13] <chaals> ack glenn
# [19:13] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:13] <timeless> glenn: relating to the use of the Origin header
# [19:13] <timeless> ... by a Client HTML5 UA
# [19:13] <timeless> ... in Simple
# [19:13] <timeless> ... it defines the use / not use
# [19:13] <timeless> ... in section 5.1
# [19:13] * timeless ??
# [19:14] <timeless> ... but i don't see that mentioned in the HTML5 spec
# [19:14] * Joins: mattkelly (mattwkelly@166.130.14.17)
# [19:14] <timeless> ... this came up in another forum that's trying to read these specs
# [19:14] <timeless> ... and understand the implications for user agents
# [19:14] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [19:14] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/02-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
# [19:14] <timeless> ... that may be based on embedded devices
# [19:14] <timeless> ... that may not be based on existing UAs
# [19:14] <timeless> ... and may need to have compliance testing
# [19:14] <timeless> anne: I think HTML does require it
# [19:14] <timeless> ... when it does CORS requests
# [19:15] <timeless> glenn: what about the CORS mode of no-cors
# [19:15] <plh> q?
# [19:15] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:15] <plh> q+
# [19:15] * Zakim sees plh on the speaker queue
# [19:15] <timeless> ... because there was no cross-origin attribute
# [19:15] * Joins: Paul_Kinlan (Paul_Kinla@216.239.45.4)
# [19:15] <timeless> abarth: in that case, there's no requirement to send it
# [19:15] <timeless> ... but no prohibition
# [19:15] <timeless> glenn: that's ambiguous
# [19:15] <timeless> abarth: whenever you send an http request, there's no requirement/prohibition
# [19:15] <timeless> anne: if the server responds with ACL Allow
# [19:16] <timeless> ... then HTML allows it whether or not the Origin was included in the request
# [19:16] <timeless> .. it
# [19:16] <timeless> s/.. it/... it's only supposed to be if the Origin is in the request/
# [19:16] <timeless> abarth: that's not the case when you have caching.
# [19:16] <chaals> scribe: chaals
# [19:17] <chaals> glenn: the scenario i am trying to figure out is [scribe missed :(]
# [19:17] <chaals> ... is it just a general ambiguity, or a spec issue.
# [19:17] <chaals> adam: fetch a x-origin video without origin attribute. then we want to drawit onto canvas. Does this tain the canvas. - is that your question?
# [19:17] <chaals> glenn: Yes. I am also worried about compliane testing for that.
# [19:18] <chaals> adamb: If it isn't cors-fetch it doesn't say
# [19:18] <chaals> anne: all fetches are cors-enabled effectively
# [19:18] <chaals> adam: you have to implement cors to make HTML5 compliant
# [19:18] <chaals> glenn: But HTML doesn't say that
# [19:18] <chaals> anne: Hixie doesn't want t require cors for html
# [19:18] <plh> q-
# [19:18] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:19] <chaals> glenn: SO I would have to require impleneting cors and sending the origin header myself in a separate profile
# [19:19] <chaals> anne: yeah. There is a bug on this.
# [19:19] <chaals> adam: THere is an IETF spec that defines the origin header, if you do implement it.
# [19:19] <timeless> s/THere/There/
# [19:19] <chaals> ArtB: what is the expectation of he outstanding cors bugs
# [19:20] <timeless> s/of he/of the/
# [19:20] * Quits: ekr (ekr@205.248.100.252) (Quit: ekr)
# [19:20] <chaals> anne: think Adam was going to write on caches, defining headers depends on xxx being done, bug 14700 is fixed, 16203 is a bug on the wrong product.
# [19:20] <Hixie> it's not that i don't want to require cors
# [19:20] <Hixie> it's that we don't even require HTTP
# [19:20] <chaals> ... should discuss 15312.
# [19:21] <chaals> anne: We have a header called access control headers the UA generates and send in preflight saying what headers they want to use.
# [19:21] <glenn> see https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16841 and https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16574 re: origin header
# [19:21] <chaals> ... cors makes requirements on how these are formatted.
# [19:21] <glenn> s/compliane/compliance/
# [19:21] * Quits: Lachy (Lachy@84.215.193.30) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
# [19:22] <chaals> ... We require them to be lower case and require lexicographical order. It isn't a big implementation burden.
# [19:22] <chaals> adam: What is julian's complaint?
# [19:23] <chaals> anne: HTTP library implemented at the same level and being case-insensitive can create confusion. But if you implement this in PHP you can easily handle this change from one to the other. I don't think we should fix the bug.
# [19:23] <chaals> Tony: prefer the way the spec has it now.
# [19:24] <chaals> adam: section could require a case-insensitive comparison.
# [19:24] <chaals> anne: we do, but can't rely on them
# [19:24] <chaals> ekr: sure
# [19:24] <chaals> ArtB: So we there are no blocking comments?
# [19:25] <chaals> jeff: without some serious work the result of publishing a complicated spec will be to cause problems.
# [19:25] * Joins: ekr (ekr@205.248.100.252)
# [19:25] <chaals> anne: we have what we got, and hadn't been reviewed until now.
# [19:25] <MikeSmith> q?
# [19:25] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:27] <chaals> chaals: Would prefer to have a split of primer and spec
# [19:27] <chaals> brad: happy to incorporate jeff's comments.
# [19:27] <chaals> ... think it is important to fix those things.
# [19:27] <timeless> q?
# [19:27] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:27] <chaals> s/and spec/and spec, but I am not volunteering to edit/
# [19:27] <timeless> q+ JeffH
# [19:27] * Zakim sees JeffH on the speaker queue
# [19:28] <chaals> ... would be good to undertake that work as a specific audience spec, if we can find resources.
# [19:28] <MikeSmith> ack JeffH
# [19:28] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:28] <chaals> jeff: That's why I proposed text...
# [19:29] * Quits: ekr (ekr@205.248.100.252) (Quit: ekr)
# [19:30] <chaals> jeff: Brad is volunteering to make the security considerations work *in the existing spec*.
# [19:30] <chaals> ... There is the other task, of explaining CORS to a wider audience who need that.
# [19:31] <timeless> q+ to ask if the FAQ should really be in the spec instead of in a wiki
# [19:31] * Zakim sees timeless on the speaker queue
# [19:31] <chaals> ... No known editor is available at this time.
# [19:31] <MikeSmith> q?
# [19:31] * Zakim sees timeless on the speaker queue
# [19:31] <chaals> ArtB: After Brad reflects Jeff's comments, we can go to CR?
# [19:31] <chaals> anne: I think so.
# [19:32] <timeless> ack me
# [19:32] <Zakim> timeless, you wanted to ask if the FAQ should really be in the spec instead of in a wiki
# [19:32] <chaals> Josh: I will send some editorial comments
# [19:32] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:32] <chaals> timeless: FAQs should be updated live.
# [19:32] <chaals> anne: right. That's fine to separate out.
# [19:33] <chaals> timeless: think it should be moved out, to a wiki.
# [19:33] <chaals> anne: sure. File an editorial bug on the spec.
# [19:33] <chaals> ... ditto for use cases.
# [19:34] * Joins: rniwa_ (rniwa@216.239.45.130)
# [19:34] <chaals> chaals: so we need some editorial work, and it can go to CR. Who is test facilitator?
# [19:34] <MikeSmith> http://w3c-test.org/webappsec/tests/cors/submitted/
# [19:34] <chaals> odin: Me. We will be working on that this afternoon in webappsec
# [19:34] <MikeSmith> http://w3c-test.org/webappsec/tests/cors/submitted/opera/js/
# [19:35] <MikeSmith> http://w3c-test.org/webapps/CORS/tests/submissions/Microsoft/
# [19:35] * Quits: mattkelly (mattwkelly@166.130.14.17) (Ping timeout)
# [19:35] <timeless> scribe: Josh_Soref
# [19:35] <timeless> scribenick: timeless
# [19:36] <timeless> Topic: D3E/D4
# [19:36] <timeless> chaals: travis + anne, explain it as tersely as you risk
# [19:36] <timeless> ... it holds us back from Break
# [19:36] <timeless> travis: we've been making steady progress on DOM 3 Events
# [19:36] <timeless> ... the goal as i wrote in a mail several months ago
# [19:36] * Quits: rniwa (rniwa@205.248.100.252) (Ping timeout)
# [19:36] * rniwa_ is now known as rniwa
# [19:36] <timeless> ... was to take what was there and align it with what's in the DOM 4 section
# [19:37] <timeless> ... making the DOM 3 section a basis for the DOM 4 spec
# [19:37] <timeless> ... we're largely there
# [19:37] * Parts: tanvi (Adium@63.245.220.11)
# [19:37] <timeless> ... only two active bugs remaining
# [19:37] <timeless> ... maybe one or zero in the next week
# [19:37] <timeless> ... and then we start a LCWD
# [19:37] <timeless> ... and then immediately move to CR
# [19:37] <timeless> ... after speaking w/ anne, i think we're in good shape to make those goals
# [19:37] <timeless> ... that's D3E
# [19:37] <timeless> ... any questions?
# [19:37] <timeless> ... if you haven't read the spec in a while, go back and re-read it
# [19:38] <timeless> ... there's another spec, currently called "DOM 4 Events" ?
# [19:38] <timeless> ... jrossi authored
# [19:38] * Ms2ger will certainly re-read :)
# [19:38] <timeless> ... it contains the next generation of Events
# [19:38] <timeless> ... the next Keyboard/Audio
# [19:38] <timeless> ... i'm not sure what's in there
# [19:38] <timeless> ... we'd like to formally adopt that into the WebApps WG as a deliverable
# [19:38] <timeless> ... and figure out how we rationalize that w/ DOM 4
# [19:38] <timeless> ... the new spec wouldn't cover the Dispatch Model
# [19:38] <timeless> ... just define specific events
# [19:39] <timeless> ... similar to Progress Events
# [19:39] * Joins: mattkelly (mattwkelly@173.252.71.2)
# [19:39] <timeless> anne: I'd suggest calling it UI Events
# [19:39] * Quits: ericu (ericu@216.239.45.130) (Ping timeout)
# [19:39] <timeless> weinig: UI Events implies accessibility
# [19:39] <ArtB> q+ do we have an editor for the UI Events draft ?
# [19:39] * Zakim ArtB, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
# [19:39] <timeless> ... the Accessibility people had a UI Events spec
# [19:39] * Joins: ericu_ (ericu@205.248.100.252)
# [19:39] <timeless> shepazu: let's not talk about that
# [19:39] <timeless> travis: I believe the spec falls into the group's charter
# [19:39] <Ms2ger> Again? :)
# [19:39] <timeless> ArtB: is jrossi willing to take the lead?
# [19:39] <timeless> travis: I believe he is
# [19:40] <Ms2ger> Leading more than D3E?
# [19:40] <timeless> [ Bike shedding about name ]
# [19:40] <timeless> travis: that's all i have
# [19:40] <timeless> [ Break ]
# [19:40] <timeless> [ Back at 10:50 ]
# [19:44] * Joins: ekr (ekr@205.248.100.252)
# [19:46] * Joins: jsbell (u6276@88.198.6.68)
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# [19:50] * Joins: Arno (Arnaud@205.248.100.252)
# [19:53] * Quits: JeffH (quassel@205.248.100.252) (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.)
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# [19:59] * Quits: tantek_ (tantek@66.87.4.204) (Ping timeout)
# [19:59] <timeless> Topic: Specs severed from HTML
# [19:59] <timeless> chaals: Hixie does technical work on them
# [19:59] <timeless> ... and then someone takes that and walks them through the process hoops
# [20:00] <timeless> ArtB: right now we have 5 specs in progress
# [20:00] <timeless> ... Server Sent Events just started LC 5 days ago
# [20:00] * Quits: Paul_Kinlan (Paul_Kinla@216.239.45.4) (Client exited)
# [20:00] <timeless> ... we talked about it briefly yesterday
# [20:00] <timeless> ... the comment deadline is in a few weeks
# [20:00] <timeless> ... there's an ACTION that chaals + odinho agreed to for tests
# [20:00] <timeless> ... Messaging
# [20:01] <timeless> ... CR published Yesterday
# [20:01] <timeless> ... we noted yesterday that this has the broadest deployment of all
# [20:01] <timeless> ... but no tests
# [20:01] <timeless> ... I sent a call for tests, yesterday
# [20:01] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [20:01] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/02-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [20:01] <timeless> ... do any of you browser vendors have tests for Post Messaging?
# [20:01] <timeless> adrianba: I think we had some Post Message tests as part of the HTML5 WG
# [20:02] <timeless> krisk: they might be in CVS there
# [20:02] * MikeSmith will look for tests now
# [20:02] <timeless> ArtB: what's the probability they were using Test Harness?
# [20:02] <timeless> krisk: it was pre-Test Harness
# [20:02] <timeless> ArtB: could you guys be a Test Facilitator?
# [20:02] <timeless> krisk: maybe, there's another person on the team who could potentially help
# [20:02] <timeless> ArtB: I could follow up with you?
# [20:02] <timeless> krisk: Alex
# [20:02] <timeless> ArtB: anything else on Messaging?
# [20:02] <timeless> ... Sockets
# [20:02] <timeless> ... we have krisk as the Test Facilitator
# [20:03] <timeless> ... maybe krisk can give a brief update
# [20:03] <timeless> krisk: sure
# [20:03] <timeless> ... anne was talking about yesterday relating to surrogate pairs
# [20:03] <timeless> ... there is tests for it
# [20:03] <timeless> ... multiple browsers pass
# [20:03] * Joins: tantek_ (tantek@66.87.7.186)
# [20:03] <timeless> ... Firefox, IE, Chrome, maybe even Opera
# [20:03] <timeless> ... there's a bug
# [20:03] <timeless> ... and a proposal to put in replacements
# [20:04] <timeless> anne: the unicode replacement character
# [20:04] <anne> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16157
# [20:04] <timeless> ... the reason is to get consistency in the platform ... with XHR
# [20:04] <MikeSmith> I don't fined any postmsg tests in the http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/html5/tests/ tree
# [20:04] <timeless> s/fined/find/
# [20:05] <timeless> ArtB: is that the only bug in the list that you guys consider critical?
# [20:05] <timeless> anne: ArrayBuffer / ArrayBufferView is critical too
# [20:05] <timeless> chaals: 16708
# [20:05] <timeless> anne: 15210
# [20:05] <timeless> ... 16703 maybe
# [20:05] * hober MikeSmith: there's a couple in WebKit/LayoutTests/http/tests/messaging/ IIRC
# [20:05] <timeless> ArtB: so 4/5 of the bugs
# [20:05] <MikeSmith> hober, thanks
# [20:05] <timeless> ... is there broad agreement to fix them, and go back to LC?
# [20:06] <timeless> [ No, not broad agreement ]
# [20:06] <timeless> anne: sicking and Opera agree that it'd be good to change isolated surrogates
# [20:06] <timeless> sicking: i'm of the opinion to convert to the replacement character
# [20:06] <timeless> adrianba: what about to the receive side
# [20:06] <timeless> anne: how can you receive it
# [20:07] <timeless> adrianba: if there's isolated surrogates going from service to client
# [20:07] <timeless> sicking: you can have malformed UTF8
# [20:07] <timeless> anne: that's not UTF8
# [20:07] <timeless> sicking: what should happen if that byte sequence is sent from server to client
# [20:07] <timeless> anne: it depends on what type of decoder you have
# [20:07] <timeless> ... which would probably decode to replacement
# [20:07] <timeless> ... characters
# [20:08] <timeless> sicking: i think different apis would do different things
# [20:08] <timeless> anne: sounds like a bug
# [20:08] <timeless> sicking: i think we should use replacement there too
# [20:08] <timeless> anne: i don't know about that
# [20:08] <timeless> adrianba: the spec says to disconnect
# [20:08] <timeless> ... and that's what implementations do
# [20:08] <timeless> Josh_Soref: and this is tested?
# [20:08] <timeless> adrianba: i believe so
# [20:08] <timeless> sicking: i believe we should do the same with HTML
# [20:08] <timeless> ... and do replacement
# [20:09] <timeless> ... there's a question of how many replacement characters
# [20:09] <timeless> anne: that's getting defined now
# [20:09] <timeless> ... the Encoding document will define it
# [20:09] <timeless> ... so the protocol says to disconnect?
# [20:09] <timeless> adrianba: yes
# [20:09] <timeless> anne: seems like a bug
# [20:09] <timeless> adrianba: my proposal is that since we have interop on this now
# [20:09] <timeless> ... we could think about loosening this in the future
# [20:10] <timeless> anne: what we're talking about here is 16-bit code unit to utf-8 conversion
# [20:10] <timeless> ... the server could use exactly the same algorithm and never yield isolated surrogated
# [20:10] <timeless> s/surrogated/surrogates/
# [20:10] <timeless> ... that could only happen if you use a really weird encoder
# [20:10] <timeless> adrianba: i'd argue it's the same
# [20:10] <timeless> ... people build web sockets
# [20:11] <timeless> ... expecting the data is valid
# [20:11] <timeless> .. or it doesn't work
# [20:11] <timeless> anne: the thing you're talking about
# [20:11] <timeless> ... that the server might send from the server to the client
# [20:11] <timeless> ... you could never generate it from the client to the server
# [20:11] <timeless> adrianba: people working on web sockets
# [20:11] <timeless> ... have an expectation of strict error checking
# [20:11] <timeless> ... i think if you're going to change that, you should change both
# [20:11] <timeless> anne: there's a different check for the server and the wire
# [20:12] <timeless> sicking: aren't we suggesting to change both?
# [20:12] <timeless> anne: yes
# [20:12] <timeless> sicking: we should never have malformed utf-8 cause disconnect
# [20:12] <timeless> ... we should transparently convert
# [20:12] <timeless> adrianba: i'm saying today implementations don't do that
# [20:12] <timeless> sicking: i guess i could live with keeping interop in the current version
# [20:12] <timeless> ... and changing for v2
# [20:12] <timeless> anne: how does that work?
# [20:12] <timeless> ... maintain a fork of the spec?
# [20:13] <timeless> sicking: we've changed implementations in the past
# [20:13] <timeless> ... from throwing to not throwing
# [20:13] <timeless> anne: do we delay fixing our implementations?
# [20:13] <timeless> sicking: as soon as there's a v2 spec, we can point to it and change
# [20:13] <timeless> anne: it's not the only change
# [20:13] <timeless> chaals: ArtB, you are the editor of that spec
# [20:14] <timeless> ... who is going to make it a REC
# [20:14] <timeless> ... Hixie did the technical work
# [20:14] <timeless> ... but in order to make a stable REC, you're the editor
# [20:14] <timeless> ... do you see it is worth continuing the argument
# [20:14] <timeless> ... or can you, like sicking, live with sending it out and do a v2?
# [20:14] <timeless> ArtB: i don't have a firm opinion
# [20:14] <timeless> ... on the one hand, we can see who cares
# [20:15] <timeless> ... and additional changes
# [20:15] <timeless> ... and stop the REC
# [20:15] <timeless> ... can we get a show of hands
# [20:15] * Zakim timeless, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
# [20:15] <timeless> ArtB: we get a show of hands?
# [20:15] <timeless> .... who thinks we should go ahead
# [20:15] <timeless> ... who thinks we should block?
# [20:15] <timeless> chaals: Microsoft Guys
# [20:15] <timeless> ... in favor of moving on
# [20:16] <timeless> ... Opera, Apple, Cox in favor of blocking
# [20:16] <timeless> ... sicking has a fence post
# [20:16] <timeless> sicking: i have a weak preference for changing
# [20:16] <timeless> ... but i can't speak for Mozilla
# [20:16] <timeless> chaals: doesn't sound like consensus
# [20:16] <hober> s/Apple/hober/
# [20:16] * hober just clarifying that that's my personal opinion
# [20:16] <timeless> chaals: (pualc's question) who can not live with blocking on this issue?
# [20:17] <timeless> chaals: (pualc's question) who can not live with what we have and versioning out?
# [20:17] <timeless> chaals: who is surprised by that result?
# [20:17] <timeless> ... w3c process says we should seek consensus
# [20:17] <timeless> ... WG resolution is we will block on this issue
# [20:17] <timeless> ... so, that gets you off the hook of preparing a TR req
# [20:18] <timeless> ArtB: so how do we get the fixes we consider mandatory?
# [20:18] <timeless> ... how do we get Hixie to make these changes?
# [20:18] <timeless> chaals: given we're forking from Hixie
# [20:18] <timeless> ... an editor, as opposed to an author can edit them in
# [20:18] <timeless> ... those who have blocked
# [20:18] <timeless> ... have an onus to put up the changes
# [20:19] <timeless> ... blocking for a future world is not a useful exercise
# [20:19] <timeless> ... i suggest if we don't get an explanation of getting the changes in a reasonable amount of time
# [20:19] <timeless> ... we'll look back less kindly the next time
# [20:19] <timeless> ... it makes sense as a change, but doesn't make sense to hold the universe forever
# [20:19] <Ms2ger> I object to a fork that contradicts the WHATWG version on technical points
# [20:20] <timeless> ... please make sure you get back
# [20:20] <timeless> anne: i think we should just ask Hixie to make the changes
# [20:22] <timeless> [ We count 4, not 5 bugs ]
# [20:22] <timeless> chaals: anyone want to pick one of the three?
# [20:22] <timeless> anne: if you tell Hixie that it's an implementer priority, then he fixes them
# [20:23] <timeless> ... 16708 is another consistency thing
# [20:23] <timeless> ... XHR and Blob have done
# [20:23] <timeless> ... the others, i don't know
# [20:23] <timeless> adrianba: we won't be making those changes anytime soon
# [20:23] <timeless> ... it's too late for IE10
# [20:23] <timeless> anne: you don't do WebGL
# [20:23] <timeless> ... but you have ArrayBuffer?
# [20:23] <timeless> adrianba: we have ArrayBuffer
# [20:24] <timeless> ... it's not like it's a tiny incremental change to do WebGL
# [20:24] <timeless> anne: are you guys participating in Kronus?
# [20:24] <timeless> adrianba: no
# [20:24] <plh> s/Kronus/Khronos/
# [20:24] * timeless thanks plh
# [20:24] * timeless just googled to fix
# [20:24] <timeless> ArtB: Web Storage
# [20:24] <anne> s/Kronus/Khronos/
# [20:25] <timeless> s|s/Kronus/Khronos/||
# [20:25] <timeless> s/ArtB: Web Storage/Topic: Web Storage/
# [20:25] <timeless> s/... Sockets/Topic: Web Sockets/
# [20:25] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [20:25] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/02-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [20:26] <timeless> ArtB: Ms2ger went through this
# [20:26] <timeless> ... what's going to block
# [20:26] <timeless> krisk: some of the results are wrong
# [20:26] <timeless> ... i can't tell who ran them
# [20:26] <timeless> plh: you can click on a test to see which UA string ran it
# [20:26] <timeless> krisk: we should have the vendors run them
# [20:26] <Ms2ger> I ran the Web Storage tests
# [20:26] <timeless> sicking: is there a way i can run these tests right now?
# [20:27] <timeless> plh: possibly
# [20:27] <Ms2ger> There are wrong results where the test changed
# [20:27] <Ms2ger> sicking, http://w3c-test.org/framework/suite/web-storage-dev/
# [20:27] * timeless Ms2ger : how can sicking run the tests?
# [20:27] <timeless> sicking: ... on nightly
# [20:27] * Quits: ekr (ekr@205.248.100.252) (Quit: ekr)
# [20:27] <timeless> [ sicking is looking at Constructor ]
# [20:27] * Ms2ger sicking I've got patches for most failures
# [20:28] <timeless> ArtB: so, storage is our first candidate
# [20:28] <timeless> krisk: if we want to implementations pass for Event Constructors
# [20:28] <timeless> ... i don't think we have two vendors
# [20:28] <timeless> anne: doesn't WebKit have them?
# [20:28] <sicking> Ms2ger: file bugs and attach patches and i'll review :-)
# [20:28] <timeless> weinig: we have them
# [20:28] <timeless> ... if Ms2ger is testing lexical lookup
# [20:29] <Ms2ger> sicking, I've had mayhemer review them
# [20:29] <timeless> ... we may have some minor things
# [20:29] <sicking> cool
# [20:29] <timeless> ... i know i didn't do the arguments in alphabetical order
# [20:29] <timeless> ... gotta do that
# [20:29] <timeless> ... for dictionaries
# [20:29] <timeless> ... the are lots of small edge cases
# [20:29] * Ms2ger notes that the lexicographic order requirement is new
# [20:29] <timeless> ... that are part of event constructors
# [20:29] <timeless> ... it's good that there are tests
# [20:29] <timeless> ... but it seems likely there will be minor bugs
# [20:29] * plh ms2ger, as a workaround, I believe you can clear all test results by resubmitting the manifest file. not ideal but don't have an alternative for now
# [20:29] <timeless> ... especially spreading out across two specs
# [20:30] <Ms2ger> plh, doesn't work, plinss wontfixed the bug
# [20:30] <timeless> krisk: it sounds like some people may pass some of the tests
# [20:30] <timeless> ... but we're not really sure
# [20:30] <timeless> chaals: the blocker seems to be event constructors
# [20:31] <timeless> chaals: we don't have agreement on the test suite yet
# [20:31] <timeless> ArtB: anything else on Storage?
# [20:31] <timeless> Topic: Web Workers
# [20:31] <timeless> ArtB: ... another CR just published yesterday
# [20:31] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [20:31] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/02-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [20:31] <timeless> ... we mentioned we don't have a test facilitator
# [20:31] <plh> ms2ger, do you mind if I clear the tests results?
# [20:31] <timeless> ... someone from microsoft did
# [20:31] <Ms2ger> plh, not at all
# [20:31] <timeless> ... we might have some, but none for shared-workers
# [20:31] <timeless> krisk: yes, alex,
# [20:32] <timeless> ArtB: anyone volunteering?
# [20:32] <timeless> ... i guess an action item for me to look for someone
# [20:32] <timeless> i/Server Sent Events/Topic: Server Sent Events/
# [20:32] <timeless> s/... Messaging/Topic: Messaging/
# [20:33] <timeless> s/... we have krisk as/ArtB: we have krisk as/
# [20:33] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [20:33] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/02-webapps-minutes.html timeless
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# [20:39] <MikeSmith> this room is cold
# [20:39] <MikeSmith> we need a fireplace here
# [20:39] <Ms2ger> sicking, fwiw, bug 740357 is currently blocking me from further bugfixes (along with tree closures...)
# [20:41] * miketaylr is now known as miketaylrawaylol
# [20:50] <timeless> Topic: Index DB
# [20:50] <timeless> chaals: We got a charter comment asking for a JS api for SQL
# [20:50] <timeless> ... we replied that IndexedDB is the result
# [20:50] <timeless> s/Index DB/IndexDB/
# [20:50] <timeless> sicking: looking at this list, there is one normative change
# [20:50] <Ms2ger> s/IndexDB/IndexedDB/
# [20:50] <timeless> ... 16714
# [20:51] <timeless> ... that aligns the spec with what everyone has done
# [20:51] <timeless> ... i'm editing that into the spec now
# [20:51] <timeless> ... 14404
# [20:51] <timeless> ... hopefully everyone agrees
# [20:51] <timeless> ... but i'd like to clarify on the list that everyone agrees
# [20:51] <timeless> ... hopefully everyone agrees it's editorial
# [20:51] <timeless> ... We have a problem with ReSpec
# [20:52] <timeless> ... which removed a significant chunk of the spec
# [20:52] <timeless> chaals: and you claim this is an issue
# [20:52] <Ms2ger> Solution: dump ReSpec
# [20:52] <timeless> sicking: this needs to be fixed before we can publish
# [20:52] <timeless> chaals: is that editorial?
# [20:52] <timeless> sicking: it is
# [20:52] <timeless> ... it's preventing us from going to LC
# [20:52] <timeless> chaals: beyond you needing to fix it
# [20:52] * miketaylrawaylol is now known as miketaylr
# [20:52] <timeless> ... is it a real problem?
# [20:52] <timeless> sicking: no
# [20:53] <timeless> ... if we can get those two things changed today, we can publish LC
# [20:53] <timeless> ... any questions?
# [20:54] <timeless> ArtB: last day to publish is May 8, with a CfC, that's yesterday
# [20:54] <timeless> ... we can get it published this month
# [20:54] <timeless> sicking: we have 3 implementations at this point
# [20:54] <timeless> ... with a fourth in progress
# [20:54] <timeless> ... you've given a fair number of comments
# [20:54] <timeless> hober: read through everything
# [20:54] <timeless> ... but when we send new comments
# [20:55] <timeless> ... it's because we got to a new point
# [20:55] <timeless> sicking: the people i'm expecting comments from is Opera
# [20:55] <timeless> hober: so far it's things that aren't really defined
# [20:55] <timeless> ... and nitpicking, making things easier to read
# [20:55] <timeless> chaals: so, LC in Q2, mid may
# [20:55] <timeless> ... do you have a test facilitator?
# [20:55] <timeless> [ crickets ]
# [20:56] <timeless> krisk: Alex Kuang can do it
# [20:56] * Joins: krisk (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [20:56] <krisk> present+ krisk
# [20:57] <timeless> ArtB: i'll wait for sicking's green light to start CfC
# [20:57] * Quits: sicking (chatzilla@205.248.100.252) (Quit: Reconnecting…)
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# [20:57] <timeless> jsbell: Joshua Bell, Google
# [20:58] <timeless> Topic: Feature Detection
# [20:58] <timeless> adrianba: there are two parts
# [20:58] <timeless> ... 1: Dev Education
# [20:59] <timeless> ... we're using the resources we have, and I know Opera is
# [20:59] * Joins: tantek_ (tantek@205.248.100.252)
# [20:59] <timeless> ... 2: Reviewing features we're adding to specs
# [20:59] <timeless> ... for example, Binary Data for Web Sockets
# [20:59] <timeless> ... because of the way implementations did other features, it was hard to tell if it would work
# [21:00] <timeless> chaals: what happened to the API Cookbook plan?
# [21:01] <timeless> ... at the extreme end, we could bake them into the Process for the group
# [21:01] <timeless> ... do we want to go that far
# [21:01] <timeless> ... and note it for the next time that we've been here before
# [21:02] <timeless> adrianba: yes
# [21:02] <timeless> ... it's really expensive when people build sites using browser detectoin
# [21:02] <timeless> s/detectoin/detection/
# [21:02] <timeless> ... we spend a lot of money telling people
# [21:02] <timeless> ... that assuming you have Feature A means you have Feature B
# [21:03] <timeless> ... if we add just Feature B, that causes problems
# [21:03] <timeless> chaals: we could block at LC on a requirement to recognize that a feature exists
# [21:04] <timeless> adrianba: for now, blocking at LC should be ok
# [21:04] <timeless> anne: kind of uncomfortable with a blanket requirement
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# [21:05] <timeless> weinig: there's an issue with browsers that don't implement properties on prototypes
# [21:05] <timeless> sicking: there's an issue with Dictionaries
# [21:06] <timeless> ... if in v2 you specify locale collation as an additional parameter in a Dictionary
# [21:06] <timeless> anne: it isn't exposed in another way?
# [21:06] <timeless> ... you could test it, right?
# [21:07] <timeless> sicking: sure, you could, but it's a large chunk
# [21:07] <timeless> ... large enough that authors are likely to not do it
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# [21:07] <Ms2ger> Modernizr!
# [21:07] <timeless> ... a lot of the time we do design for this
# [21:07] <timeless> ... but sometimes we don't
# [21:07] <timeless> ... for collation, we could expose the property
# [21:08] <timeless> ... which would enable it to be detected
# [21:08] <timeless> anne: is that a problem if it isn't supported?
# [21:08] <timeless> weinig: what's the workaround if you don't have it?
# [21:08] <timeless> ... you'd do the sorting yourself?
# [21:08] <timeless> ... so you'd have two code paths?
# [21:08] <timeless> sicking: or you could use munged sortable strings
# [21:09] <timeless> weinig: that wouldn't be the locale of the computer
# [21:09] <timeless> sicking: no, just a specific locale
# [21:09] <timeless> weinig: it seems like dictionaries pose a little problem
# [21:09] <timeless> ... but not a huge one
# [21:09] <timeless> sicking: one thing developers have asked for is to see if a given event is supported from a given element
# [21:10] <timeless> ... not all events have an onfoo property
# [21:10] <timeless> ... so you can't detect it that way
# [21:10] <timeless> ... so the only way to detect it is to sit around and wait for the user to start typing
# [21:10] * paul___irish is now known as paul_irish
# [21:10] <timeless> anne: IME events probably have an interface you can detect
# [21:11] <timeless> weinig: it's probably a good strategy to ensure there's a clean update path
# [21:11] <timeless> rniwa: how do you handle the case where a browse in v.N implements API, and it's broken
# [21:12] <timeless> ... and they fix it in v.N+1
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# [21:12] <timeless> sicking: i think the best solution is to have tests earlier
# [21:12] <timeless> shepazu: testing is the solution
# [21:12] * Ms2ger snorts
# [21:12] <timeless> chaals: testing minimizes the occurrence of that anyway
# [21:12] <timeless> ... but bugs happen
# [21:13] <timeless> ... alternatively, if you know of a specific broken implementation
# [21:13] <timeless> ... sniff for the particular browser on the particular device
# [21:13] <timeless> ... Ice Wind 7 on Android phone
# [21:13] <timeless> ... I know thing X is broken
# [21:13] <timeless> ... if you claim to be it, we'll do something else with you
# [21:13] <shepazu> RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
# [21:13] <RRSAgent> ok, shepazu; I will not start a new log at midnight
# [21:13] * timeless thanks shepazu
# [21:13] <timeless> ... there's the other version of sniffing
# [21:14] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [21:14] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/02-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
# [21:14] <plh> rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight
# [21:14] <RRSAgent> ok, plh; I will not start a new log at midnight
# [21:14] <timeless> ... where you assume that Browser X will never have that
# [21:14] <timeless> ... we need to take that site out back and shoot it
# [21:14] <timeless> ... the goal is to minimize useragent detection
# [21:14] <timeless> ... some significant portion will be done by idiots
# [21:14] <timeless> ... and will be done badly
# [21:15] <timeless> chaals: do we need a formal resolution?
# [21:15] <timeless> ... my proposed resolution is LUNCH
# [21:16] <paul_irish> regardless of how early testing is introduced, developers cannot embed a portion of the conformance testing suite into their apps. we need a published technique to feature detect localStorage, geolocation, etc etc.
# [21:16] <timeless> weinig: a proposed resolution is to be more careful to make it easy to feature detect
# [21:16] <timeless> chaals: my proposed resolution is Don't do That
# [21:16] <timeless> ... We recognize it is a problem for specs
# [21:16] <timeless> ... if you can't feature detect reliably
# [21:16] <timeless> ... and leave it at that
# [21:16] <timeless> adrianba: i'll liase with darobin to make sure it's in his document
# [21:17] <adrianba> ACTION: adrianba to liaise with Robin to ensure feature detection is part of his API design document
# [21:17] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [21:17] * RRSAgent records action 1
# [21:17] <trackbot> Created ACTION-661 - Liaise with Robin to ensure feature detection is part of his API design document [on Adrian Bateman - due 2012-05-09].
# [21:17] <timeless> [ Lunch - resume at 1:15 ]
# [21:18] <Ms2ger> paul_irish, the point was to prevent poisoning feature detection like Google does with input type=chrome, say
# [21:18] * Quits: ArtB (abarsto@205.248.100.252) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [21:18] * timeless Ms2ger : who is paul_irish and why are you minuting that?
# [21:19] * Ms2ger timeless, paul_irish is the guy who said something on the record
# [21:19] * paul_irish is on Chrome Developer Relations and author of the largest feature detection library
# [21:19] * timeless hah
# [21:19] * timeless ah
# [21:20] * timeless why aren't you on site? :)
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# [21:20] * paul_irish :) truth.
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# [21:25] <tantek> paul_irish, speaking of being "on the site", does Google have a wiki.google.com equivalent to wiki.mozilla.org?
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# [21:26] * chaals almost resists the urge to say "yeah, but it is terrible, you can never find anything" ;)
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# [21:32] <Ms2ger> chaals, oh, I thought that was wiki.opera.com ;)
# [21:33] <chaals> s/chaals, oh, I thought that was wiki.opera.com//
# [21:33] * chaals lol though
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# [22:34] <timeless> Topic: Stabilizing Specifications
# [22:34] <timeless> [ chaals explains tradeoffs between publishing early or never finally publishing
# [22:34] <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [22:34] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/02-webapps-minutes.html Ms2ger
# [22:34] <timeless> s/publishing/publishing ]/
# [22:35] <timeless> chaals: I, as a chair, want to get stuff to REC
# [22:35] <timeless> ... I, as a AC rep, want to get good specs knowing where we want to go
# [22:35] <timeless> q+ tantek
# [22:35] * Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
# [22:35] <timeless> ... so, Opera can't give too much resources
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# [22:35] <timeless> anne: the main thing gating getting to REC quickly
# [22:36] <timeless> ... is requiring two implementations of everything and an exhaustive test suite
# [22:36] <timeless> ... so we know what the substantive issues are, and address those
# [22:36] <plh> q+
# [22:36] * Zakim sees tantek, plh on the speaker queue
# [22:36] <timeless> ... and then we publish REC
# [22:36] <timeless> ... we still need to work out test suite + interop
# [22:36] <timeless> ... we could/should probably do LC every year/two years
# [22:36] <timeless> ... no major issues, publish snapshot
# [22:37] <timeless> ... the current process document requires a CR
# [22:37] <timeless> ... two interoperable is a group Req
# [22:37] <timeless> ... we could try to get creative
# [22:37] <MikeSmith> +1 to anne's "Rec snapshot" proposal
# [22:37] <timeless> ArtB: the w3 PP
# [22:37] <timeless> ack tantek
# [22:37] * Zakim sees plh on the speaker queue
# [22:37] <timeless> tantek: So, the Opera sees more value in evolving the spec
# [22:38] <timeless> ... how much value do you see in the IPR values from REC publication?
# [22:38] <timeless> chaals: as an Opera position, we see value in the IPR thing
# [22:38] <ArtB> q+ what if the IP commitment was confirmed when a CR was published rather than when the REC is published
# [22:38] * Zakim ArtB, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
# [22:38] <timeless> ... how much value is there in getting something out
# [22:39] <timeless> ... of something getting into court in the intervening space
# [22:39] <timeless> ... if a REC never happens, then it's different
# [22:39] <timeless> ... Opera also delivers browsers to companies according to specifications
# [22:39] <timeless> ... if we deliver a statement of work saying "we'll deliver up to the latest at the delivery date"
# [22:40] <sicking> q+
# [22:40] * Zakim sees plh, sicking on the speaker queue
# [22:40] <timeless> ... marketing and business can't accept an unspecified amount of work at a fixed cost
# [22:40] <timeless> ... we would like to see how important it is to other people
# [22:40] <timeless> ... one measure is, who is going to put up the work
# [22:40] <timeless> tantek: if the REC is eventually going to come, that's semi equivalent for IPR
# [22:40] <Ms2ger> q+ ArtB
# [22:40] * Zakim sees plh, sicking, ArtB on the speaker queue
# [22:40] <timeless> ... re: anne 's comment about skipping implementation and calling it a REC
# [22:40] <timeless> ... i disagree with that
# [22:41] <timeless> ... and think that's one thing that lended a loss of trust in W3C RECs
# [22:41] <timeless> ... e.g. no browser implemented it, but it's a REC
# [22:41] <shepazu> q+
# [22:41] * Zakim sees plh, sicking, ArtB, shepazu on the speaker queue
# [22:41] <timeless> ... i'm opposed to something going to REC without interoperable Browser implementations
# [22:41] <timeless> ... otherwise, leave it in CR
# [22:41] <timeless> ... forever
# [22:41] <timeless> anne: that doesn't address getting REC, so it doesn't work
# [22:41] <timeless> tantek: chaals said it doesn't matter to Opera
# [22:41] <chaals> ack pl
# [22:41] * Zakim sees sicking, ArtB, shepazu on the speaker queue
# [22:41] <timeless> ... per se
# [22:42] <timeless> plh: what's the goal of this discussion?
# [22:42] <timeless> ... to provide input to AC?
# [22:42] <timeless> chaals: no, it's to manage tension between
# [22:42] <timeless> ... getting to REC
# [22:42] <timeless> ... moving forward with new feature
# [22:42] <timeless> s/feature/features/
# [22:42] <timeless> ... how do we manage the obligation with getting stability (REC)
# [22:43] <timeless> ... because at the moment, i don't think we do an especially good job
# [22:43] <timeless> ... getting to REC
# [22:43] <glenn> q+
# [22:43] * Zakim sees sicking, ArtB, shepazu, glenn on the speaker queue
# [22:43] <timeless> plh: it's perfectly fine to go back to AC and say "given the current process, we can't do this"
# [22:43] <timeless> ... but we're bounded by the current process
# [22:43] <timeless> s/bounded/bound/
# [22:43] <timeless> ... it's useful feedback to provide
# [22:44] <timeless> plh: it says that "The WG SHOULD be able to provide 2 working interoperable implementations of each feature"
# [22:44] <timeless> ... it's a SHOULD, because some specifications don't have implementations
# [22:44] <timeless> ... like Guideliness
# [22:44] <timeless> s/Guideliness/Guidelines/
# [22:44] <ArtB> -> http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Process-20010719/tr.html#RecsCR Process Document and Candidate Recommendation
# [22:44] <timeless> tantek: isn't that what NOTEs are for?
# [22:44] <ojan> I've said this in person to many of you before, but I think we should do something very different from current practice. We should always be working on an unversioned "trunk" copy of the spec. Every *feature* in the spec is marked one of: stable, implementable, unstable. Every X months (e.g. 6 months) we fork the spec into three auto-generated copies. 1. The full spec, useful for people to bring
# [22:44] <ojan> up IPR issues. 2. A copy of the spec with the unstable features stripped. (roughly equivalent to CR, browser vendors can implement these features unprefixed) 3. A copy with the unstable and implementable features stripped (roughly REC once there are 2 implementations + a test suite).
# [22:44] <timeless> anne: once you create test suites, you start finding details
# [22:45] <chaals> q+ to note that guidelines often *do* get implementations through the process.
# [22:45] * Zakim sees sicking, ArtB, shepazu, glenn, chaals on the speaker queue
# [22:45] <chaals> ack sick
# [22:45] * Zakim sees ArtB, shepazu, glenn, chaals on the speaker queue
# [22:45] <timeless> sicking: the main value of having something called a REC
# [22:45] <timeless> ... is there are a lot of authors that care about it
# [22:45] * ojan is sorry for dropping a big comment like that without being there in person
# [22:45] <timeless> ... that pay attention to things
# [22:45] <timeless> ... even if we claim we have interoperable implementations
# [22:45] <timeless> ... they're worried because we don't have RECs
# [22:45] <timeless> ... the current process is fairly bad
# [22:46] <timeless> ... that's why i'm pushing to get more things into REC
# [22:46] <timeless> ... so we can point to them
# [22:46] <tantek> q+ to say that CR satisfies the desire for stability for implementers/authors
# [22:46] * Zakim sees ArtB, shepazu, glenn, chaals, tantek on the speaker queue
# [22:46] <timeless> ... this is a lot harder if authors want market share for those implementations as well
# [22:46] <timeless> ... the goal for most people in here is to get authors to use those specifications
# [22:46] * Ms2ger tantek: not sure if that's true in authors' minds
# [22:46] <timeless> ... there is an incentive to make REC
# [22:46] <timeless> q?
# [22:46] * Zakim sees ArtB, shepazu, glenn, chaals, tantek on the speaker queue
# [22:46] <chaals> ack ArtB
# [22:46] * Zakim sees shepazu, glenn, chaals, tantek on the speaker queue
# [22:47] <plh> q+
# [22:47] * Zakim sees shepazu, glenn, chaals, tantek, plh on the speaker queue
# [22:47] <ArtB> [[
# [22:47] <ArtB> The Working Group is not required to show that a technical report has two independent and interoperable implementations as part of a request to advance to Candidate Recommendation. However, the Working Group is encouraged to include a report of present and expected implementation as part of the request.
# [22:47] <ArtB> ]]
# [22:48] <timeless> glenn: is that the thing about CR
# [22:48] <timeless> chaals: there's a thing in the process document
# [22:48] <chaals> ack shepazu
# [22:48] * Zakim sees glenn, chaals, tantek, plh on the speaker queue
# [22:48] <krisk> q+
# [22:48] * Zakim sees glenn, chaals, tantek, plh, krisk on the speaker queue
# [22:48] <timeless> shepazu: tantek raised a point around the value of interoperability
# [22:48] <timeless> ... there's an expectation that it's interoperable in browsers
# [22:48] <timeless> ... jQuery has just joined W3C
# [22:49] <timeless> ... would people consider a jQuery implementation of a specification as a pragmatic point for interop on our test suites?
# [22:49] <timeless> ... i think it does, i'd like to hear from people who think it shouldn't
# [22:49] <ArtB> [[
# [22:49] <chaals> ack glenn
# [22:49] * Zakim sees chaals, tantek, plh, krisk on the speaker queue
# [22:49] <timeless> anne: it seems like a bad idea
# [22:49] <timeless> glenn: Cox is hear because we want to see interoperable systems
# [22:50] <timeless> ... both on the authoring side and on the UA client side
# [22:50] <timeless> ... we're investing in W3C membership and time for me and others
# [22:50] <timeless> ... on the assumption we'll get some value out of that
# [22:50] <timeless> ... the value is Final REC and test suites
# [22:50] <timeless> ... the process of getting there is long and complicated
# [22:50] <timeless> ... we'd like to see it go faster wherever possible
# [22:50] <timeless> ... we'd like to volunteer our time, my time
# [22:50] <Ms2ger> Explain why "the value is Final REC"
# [22:50] <timeless> ... a process which doesn't get us REC + test suites isn't worth our time
# [22:50] <chaals> q+ ryosuke
# [22:50] * Zakim sees chaals, tantek, plh, krisk, ryosuke on the speaker queue
# [22:51] <timeless> ... we do have the ability to define how to get there
# [22:51] <anne> Ms2ger: something with a p
# [22:51] <timeless> ... but there should be something there
# [22:51] <chaals> ack cha
# [22:51] <Zakim> chaals, you wanted to note that guidelines often *do* get implementations through the process.
# [22:51] * Zakim sees tantek, plh, krisk, ryosuke on the speaker queue
# [22:51] <timeless> ... improving the output in terms of timeliness and test suites
# [22:51] <timeless> chaals: even guidelines when they go to REC
# [22:51] <timeless> ... get implementation
# [22:51] <Ms2ger> (Also, has Cox contributed tests?)
# [22:52] <timeless> ... trying to get a guideline to REC before Team
# [22:52] <anne> shepazu: the reason jQuery is a bad idea is because you can't actually use the specification directly, you'd also need to include a library, and given the state of the DOM and JavaScript, you probably cannot use the API directly even when you go to the length of including said library
# [22:52] <timeless> ... was given pushback to show that the guideline was picked up
# [22:52] <timeless> ... demonstrating that people understand how this worked
# [22:52] <timeless> ... what we want in a REC is things we don't think are going to change much
# [22:52] <timeless> ... people writing contracts based on long term things
# [22:53] <timeless> ... don't want to discover that in six month's time things have changed under them
# [22:53] <timeless> ... suck out the stable bits
# [22:53] <glenn> cox has not yet contributed tests, but is prepared to accept a shared responsibility in doing so
# [22:53] <timeless> ... and keep on working the things that aren't stable
# [22:53] <timeless> ... we can identify the things that aren't stable
# [22:53] <timeless> ... - today
# [22:53] <timeless> ... we mark things as TBD
# [22:53] <timeless> ... if i take what glenn says, that we want a test suite
# [22:53] <shepazu> anne, fair point, but on the other hand, JQuery works across all major browsers, while each browser only works across one browser (unless it's WebKit ^_^)
# [22:54] <timeless> ... it doesn't have to test every tiny detail
# [22:54] <timeless> ... we want to know which things are interoperable
# [22:54] <timeless> ... if you look at HTML5 as a pile
# [22:54] <timeless> ... the spec defines this big mountain
# [22:54] <timeless> ... but the implementation status is things not in the spec yet
# [22:54] <timeless> ... things in the spec that you can't use anywhere
# [22:54] <timeless> ... and a smaller section you can rely on anywhere forever
# [22:54] <timeless> ... the <p> will keep on being a <p> for longer than we live
# [22:55] <anne> shepazu: independently implemented features help proving a standard is actually well written though
# [22:55] <timeless> ... you're not going to worry <p> into your web page
# [22:55] <timeless> ... some things shaking around, some people might not go there
# [22:55] <timeless> ... some people will put it (prefixed things) into my production system, because that's the way we do things
# [22:55] <timeless> ... stabilizing and saying these things in the edge cases aren't stable
# [22:55] <timeless> ... seems reasonable
# [22:55] <timeless> ... our process seems to be to stabilize every edge case
# [22:56] <shepazu> anne, yes, but I'm not saying that jQuery should be the only implementation, just that it should be one of them, just as a single browser is one of them
# [22:56] <timeless> ... and whenever we find an edge case, and deciding we have to go back and work on the spec
# [22:56] <timeless> ... before everything else
# [22:56] <Ms2ger> anne, or that the QA teams of the respective browsers are good enough at reverse engineering
# [22:56] * Joins: Lachy (Lachy@84.215.193.30)
# [22:56] <timeless> ... we do want to define everything else
# [22:56] <timeless> ... where the test suite is less comprehensive
# [22:56] <timeless> ... "we ship browsers which are perfect"
# [22:56] * timeless some animals are more equal than others
# [22:56] <timeless> ... at that level, the spec is the same
# [22:57] * timeless pauses
# [22:57] <bryan> q+ to ask if the idea behind the core mobile web platform CG (identify the interoperable core and shells of interoperable features around it) is a practically useful way to side-step the REC issue?
# [22:57] * Zakim sees tantek, plh, krisk, ryosuke, bryan on the speaker queue
# [22:57] <chaals> ack art
# [22:57] * Zakim sees tantek, plh, krisk, ryosuke, bryan on the speaker queue
# [22:57] <chaals> ack tan
# [22:57] <Zakim> tantek, you wanted to say that CR satisfies the desire for stability for implementers/authors
# [22:57] * Zakim sees plh, krisk, ryosuke, bryan on the speaker queue
# [22:58] <anne> Ms2ger: maha
# [22:58] <timeless> tantek: i agree with sicking 's point that authors feel like they can depend on
# [22:58] <timeless> ... i don't think that incentive pushes toward CR
# [22:58] <timeless> ... i've found as an educator
# [22:58] <timeless> ... someone who does workshops on HTML5
# [22:58] <timeless> ... when specs reach CR, authors tend to just depend on them
# [22:58] <timeless> anne: CR doesn't work for people who want to reference us
# [22:58] <timeless> q?
# [22:58] * Zakim sees plh, krisk, ryosuke, bryan on the speaker queue
# [22:59] <timeless> q+ anne to retaliate against tantek
# [22:59] * Zakim sees plh, krisk, ryosuke, bryan, anne on the speaker queue
# [22:59] <timeless> tantek: i have experience with fulfilling the letter and spirit of CR
# [22:59] <timeless> ... in CSS2.1
# [22:59] <timeless> ... going back, i don't think anyone would want to go back and do that level of diligence ever again
# [22:59] <timeless> ... the edge cases we were having failures on
# [22:59] <timeless> ... we shouldn't have spent years going back and forth
# [23:00] <timeless> anne: most of those problems will bite you back
# [23:00] <timeless> q?
# [23:00] * Zakim sees plh, krisk, ryosuke, bryan, anne on the speaker queue
# [23:00] <sicking> q+
# [23:00] * Zakim sees plh, krisk, ryosuke, bryan, anne, sicking on the speaker queue
# [23:00] <Ms2ger> tantek, I agree, *that* level of diligence is insufficient
# [23:00] <timeless> tantek: in practice, we left things undefined
# [23:00] <timeless> ... in CSS2.1
# [23:00] <timeless> ... i've yet to hear anyone say these things have hurt anyone
# [23:00] <chaals> ack plh
# [23:00] * Zakim sees krisk, ryosuke, bryan, anne, sicking on the speaker queue
# [23:00] <timeless> ... i think that's a group wisdom item
# [23:00] <anne> edge cases bite browsers all the time
# [23:00] <timeless> plh: i've been in this kind of discussion for 15 years
# [23:00] <anne> and table layout is definitely one of them
# [23:00] <timeless> ... it was the DOM WG that recommended CR phase
# [23:01] <timeless> ... DOM1 and DOM2 and DOM3 were produced without much of a testsuite either
# [23:01] <timeless> ... but there are consequences of doing that
# [23:01] <timeless> ... when people talk about a testsuite, there's a lot of variation about what they mean by that
# [23:01] <Ms2ger> DOM1 and 2 definitely have test suites
# [23:01] <timeless> ... we want a full test suite
# [23:01] <Ms2ger> We run them on every build
# [23:01] <timeless> ... and we want to spend years writing it
# [23:01] <timeless> ... we shipped CSS2.1 with 9,000 tests
# [23:01] <chaals> [/me wonders if it makes a difference whether there is an expectation of ongoing work or not...]
# [23:01] <timeless> ... and there are plenty of things that aren't tested, especially when you put HTML in the middle
# [23:02] <tantek> anne, do you know of any specific table layout issues re: CSS 2.1 that have actually effected authors and/or browsers? (citation requested to specific issue)
# [23:02] <tantek> (before CSS2.1 yes - plenty of table layout problems)
# [23:02] <Ms2ger> tantek, seriously?
# [23:02] <timeless> ... at W3C, we're discussing hiring people on Staff to spend their entire time on Testing
# [23:02] <chaals> ack kri
# [23:02] * Zakim sees ryosuke, bryan, anne, sicking on the speaker queue
# [23:02] <tantek> Ms2ger - remember, I said *CSS* table layout
# [23:02] <anne> not having shrink-wrap and such defined is also a major problem for new CSS specs
# [23:02] <tantek> not touching HTML legacy table layout
# [23:02] * ArtB says NO to shepazu writing any code including test cases
# [23:02] <tantek> that's a much harder problem
# [23:02] <anne> ask e.g. tab
# [23:02] <timeless> krisk: i definitely don't want to go back to a model where we don't have test suites
# [23:03] <anne> this is about HTML legacy table layout
# [23:03] <timeless> ... i think that leaves us with ambiguity
# [23:03] <anne> that's what CSS ought to define
# [23:03] <timeless> ... i think some people like to make test cases on every edge case
# [23:03] <anne> as HTML is defined in terms of CSS
# [23:03] <tantek> anne, I'm content with Flexbox's approach to solving shrinkwrap etc.
# [23:03] <timeless> ... and i don't think that helps
# [23:03] * shepazu agrees with ArtB
# [23:03] <timeless> ... i think in WebApps, i think we're on the lean side
# [23:03] <timeless> ... Web Messaging is holding the spec up for Event Constructors
# [23:03] <timeless> ... i think there's a lot of value in Web Storage interop
# [23:03] <chaals> [/me also still looking for where to get the resources to make Recs while technical editors are working on technical questions that are still unsolved]
# [23:03] <timeless> ... but looking at the test suite
# [23:04] <timeless> ... there's definitely a level base on pruning tests
# [23:04] <chaals> ack ryo
# [23:04] * Zakim sees bryan, anne, sicking on the speaker queue
# [23:04] <timeless> rniwa: keeping trunk spec
# [23:04] <timeless> ... and forking for stabilization
# [23:04] <tantek> I don't know of any authors that care about detailed description of HTML table layout - so I say it is something we can punt on (deprioritize)
# [23:04] <Ms2ger> Note that Web Messaging isn't holding the spec up for Event Constructors, but because of the nullable types change to WebIDL
# [23:04] <timeless> ... i think it's ok to
# [23:04] <timeless> ... i don't think we can wait for the test suite for every detail
# [23:04] <timeless> ... eventually it'd be nice to test every edge case
# [23:04] <Ms2ger> In particular, an error that was introduced in the conversion
# [23:04] <timeless> ... but forking for standardization
# [23:04] <anne> tantek: this is not just about authors, it's about the health of the web platform and ease of entry for new players
# [23:05] <tantek> there is much more useful/important things to work on in CSS than define legacy HTML table layout - ergo, it will likely never get done should never get done because there aren't infinite resources in CSS.
# [23:05] <anne> tantek: and about not wasting QA resources * five
# [23:05] <timeless> ... we need to agree to put the other test cases in later
# [23:05] <Ms2ger> tantek, [citation needed]
# [23:05] <anne> q-
# [23:05] * Zakim sees bryan, sicking on the speaker queue
# [23:05] <timeless> bryan: any thoughts on the coremob CG
# [23:05] <timeless> ... taking pressure off?
# [23:05] <tantek> anne - I sympathize with the ease of entry for new players - though it feels like that gets harder every year even just for well defined things, nevermind compat.
# [23:05] <tantek> ms2ger w3.org/Style/CSS
# [23:05] <timeless> ... when we did CoreMob inside WAC
# [23:05] <tantek> see the list of specs there
# [23:05] <timeless> ... which covered on web standards
# [23:05] <tantek> and priorities
# [23:05] <timeless> ... HTML and things around it
# [23:06] <chaals> [tantek, IIRC we were using table layout for some stuff internally and it caused problems - but should we therefore stop CSS going forward, or get them to produce level X and keep working to solve that in level X+Y?]
# [23:06] <anne> tantek: it's not made simpler by giving up on defining essential parts of the platform
# [23:06] <timeless> ... things we saw referenced by jQuery
# [23:06] <timeless> ... an indication that things were broadly supported
# [23:06] <timeless> ... we developed tests to ensure it worked
# [23:06] <chaals> q+
# [23:06] * Zakim sees bryan, sicking, chaals on the speaker queue
# [23:06] <timeless> ... that was a practical way to us,
# [23:06] <timeless> ... to identify what worked
# [23:06] <timeless> ... without getting in the way of the platform vendors
# [23:06] <timeless> ... when things show up in the platform, we added them to the common supported set
# [23:06] <tantek> chaals - anyone (or org) that sees legacy HTML table layout as essential for being defined can propose such a module. no one in the current CSSWG does, otherwise they would have.
# [23:07] <timeless> ... does that help take the pressure off?
# [23:07] <chaals> ack sick
# [23:07] * Zakim sees bryan, chaals on the speaker queue
# [23:07] <timeless> ... or does it solve something eles?
# [23:07] <chaals> ack bry
# [23:07] <Zakim> bryan, you wanted to ask if the idea behind the core mobile web platform CG (identify the interoperable core and shells of interoperable features around it) is a practically useful
# [23:07] <timeless> s/eles/else/
# [23:07] <Zakim> ... way to side-step the REC issue?
# [23:07] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
# [23:07] <timeless> ... or nothing
# [23:07] <tantek> or rather, other things are more important
# [23:07] <tantek> by evidence that other things have been prioritized higher
# [23:07] <timeless> sicking: i agree it's silly to hold Local Storage for Event Constructors
# [23:07] <timeless> ... we should aim for maximum interop
# [23:07] <Ms2ger> tantek, Mozilla and Opera certainly do
# [23:07] <chaals> [tantek: agree, re "if you want it, do some work".]
# [23:07] <timeless> ... long term for complete
# [23:07] <Ms2ger> tantek, but it's a very hard problem
# [23:07] <timeless> ... taking tests that we all agree are non criticl
# [23:07] <timeless> ... and moving them somewhere
# [23:07] <timeless> s/critcl/critical/
# [23:08] <tantek> chaals, right, there is no structural barrier, in fact, the opposite, there is encouragement / welcoming of such efforts.
# [23:08] <timeless> ... and then show that we have enough to move forward
# [23:08] <timeless> ... dislike the idea of making the spec more ambiguous intentionally
# [23:08] <Ms2ger> sicking, that claim about holding Web Storage for ctors is a lie, as I mentioned earlier
# [23:08] <timeless> ... if we move the undecided tests somewhere
# [23:08] <timeless> ... and then once we've addressed them
# [23:08] <tantek> Ms2ger, over time, the unreliability of legacy HTML table layout means authors don't depend on it, means fewer sites (as actually used) depend on it, means it's less important for browsers etc.
# [23:08] <timeless> ... move them back
# [23:08] <anne> tantek: maha, you mean like how things went down when I worked on some legacy aspects of the CSSOM?
# [23:08] <timeless> ... a way to mark tests as non critical
# [23:09] <timeless> krisk: in spirit, the submission process did that
# [23:09] <timeless> sicking: i don't think anyone disagrees
# [23:09] <Ms2ger> tantek, that's nonsense
# [23:09] <timeless> ... that Event Constructors are normatively required by the spec
# [23:09] <timeless> ... they're valid tests
# [23:09] <timeless> ... i wouldn't like to mark them as No
# [23:09] <timeless> ... i'd prefer to move them to a place
# [23:09] <timeless> ... "we would like implementations to pass these"
# [23:09] <timeless> ... even to claim 100% compat
# [23:09] <anne> tantek: yeah, agree with Ms2ger, that's some kind of fallacy people started believing in at some point, but it's not actually reality
# [23:09] <timeless> ... but "they aren't critical enough to block the spec"
# [23:10] <timeless> ... it tends to not be too hard to get implementations to fix them
# [23:10] <timeless> ... once they're in the right part of the release cycle
# [23:10] <tantek> anne - no amount of process can stop a chair or specific individual from being out of order or for that matter, going against the said/explicit welcoming culture of a wg. I for one am still very upset about how you were treated.
# [23:10] <timeless> ... and once they have tests
# [23:10] <timeless> rniwa: they should be normative?
# [23:10] <timeless> sicking: the test suite isn't normative
# [23:10] <adrianba> q?
# [23:10] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
# [23:10] <chaals> ack me
# [23:10] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [23:10] <timeless> ... but moving them to say "we don't require 2 passing implementations of this test in order to move to REC"
# [23:10] <anne> tantek: in the worst case you get a split web, where some set of sites depend on one behavior and others on another; in the slightly less worse case you just all have to reverse engineer each other
# [23:11] <tantek> q+ to mention optional/required features vs. one or more implementations.
# [23:11] * Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
# [23:11] <timeless> chaals: if you want stuff
# [23:11] <timeless> ... one measure of you wanting stuff
# [23:11] <timeless> ... is doing work on it
# [23:11] <timeless> ... i'm encouraged to hear glenn say "Cox wants stable RECs"
# [23:12] <timeless> ... i'm not saying glenn should write XHR2 or IndexedDB
# [23:12] <timeless> ... is what ArtB 's done for the HTML-handoff specs
# [23:12] <timeless> ... take stable things and do the finishing process
# [23:12] <timeless> ... test suites is another thing
# [23:12] <timeless> ... bryan ran away after asking about coremob
# [23:12] <timeless> ... i'm quite disappointed about coremob
# [23:12] <timeless> ... the principal of looking at what devs care about
# [23:12] <timeless> ... and getting stability for that
# [23:13] <Ms2ger> s/principal/principle/
# [23:13] * timeless thanks
# [23:13] <sicking> q+
# [23:13] * Zakim sees tantek, sicking on the speaker queue
# [23:13] * Ms2ger np
# [23:13] <timeless> ... if jQuery is shipping it to general developers
# [23:13] <timeless> ... then it's probably stable
# [23:13] <timeless> ... and the group should try to push that bit to REC
# [23:13] <timeless> ... the old model of W3C
# [23:13] * Quits: jrossi1 (jrossi@131.107.192.207) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [23:13] <timeless> ... was a group would sit down, write a spec, then they'd disappear
# [23:13] <timeless> ... for HTML, CSS, SVG, the theory was a bit wooley
# [23:14] <timeless> ... the PP was based on that theory
# [23:14] * shepazu notes that Wooley is only for CSS
# [23:14] <timeless> ... people certainly thought that
# [23:14] <timeless> ... if you know people are going to fix edge cases, solve pain points, add feature creep
# [23:14] * Quits: Ms2ger (Ms2ger@91.181.137.187) (Quit: nn)
# [23:14] <timeless> ... then maybe you know you'll have another version
# [23:14] <timeless> ... with more stuff, more bugs, but some old bugs fixed
# [23:14] <timeless> ... i'll repeat the question
# [23:14] <timeless> ... where do we get the resources of "do the finishing, do the stabilization"
# [23:15] * shepazu http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/WD-css3-box-20021024/crop.png
# [23:15] <chaals> ack tan
# [23:15] <Zakim> tantek, you wanted to mention optional/required features vs. one or more implementations.
# [23:15] * Zakim sees sicking on the speaker queue
# [23:15] <timeless> ... people who care about it, measure how much they care by how much effort they put up to make it happen
# [23:15] <glenn> q+
# [23:15] * Zakim sees sicking, glenn on the speaker queue
# [23:15] <timeless> tantek: sicking mentioned 2-impls and saying that maybe we can say 1 impl of an optional feature is sufficient
# [23:15] * chaals would like to wrap this discussion soon...
# [23:15] <timeless> shepazu: i'm not a fan of optional features
# [23:15] <timeless> tantek: it's a way to make progress
# [23:15] <chaals> ack sick
# [23:15] * Zakim sees glenn on the speaker queue
# [23:16] <timeless> sicking: we should be strict about what we're not blocking on
# [23:16] <ArtB> q+
# [23:16] * Zakim sees glenn, ArtB on the speaker queue
# [23:16] <timeless> ... in prose people tend to make things easy to get wrong
# [23:16] <timeless> ... we should be ok with being off by 2px in CSS
# [23:16] <chaals> q+
# [23:16] * Zakim sees glenn, ArtB, chaals on the speaker queue
# [23:17] <timeless> ... we should be more conservative than jQuery depends on it
# [23:17] <timeless> anne: if you do that, we won't get RECs faster
# [23:17] <timeless> sicking: Local Storage we could be done
# [23:17] <timeless> anne: XHR wouldn't
# [23:18] <timeless> sicking: i'm fine with moving the spec where people are failing the test
# [23:18] <chaals> ack glenn
# [23:18] * Zakim sees ArtB, chaals on the speaker queue
# [23:18] <timeless> glenn: on testing
# [23:18] <smaug_> (what is an optional feature o_O)
# [23:18] <timeless> ... i think it's useful to recognize that the audience for the test
# [23:18] <timeless> ... is the w3c process
# [23:18] <timeless> ... it's only technically for w3c exit requirements
# [23:18] <timeless> ... it isn't for establishing compliance
# [23:18] <timeless> ... or interop
# [23:18] <timeless> ... that isn't its express purpose
# [23:18] <timeless> ... it's just to satisfy the process requirement
# [23:18] <shepazu> q+
# [23:18] * Zakim sees ArtB, chaals, shepazu on the speaker queue
# [23:19] <timeless> ... i can see our scope and target changing over time
# [23:19] <chaals> [There are tradeoffs. By leaving stuff undefined we allow legacy complexity to creep in - but we do that by not stabilising the spec too, because people just implement against "what works". I think it is a judgement issue in the end, so I am hoping to get a bit more shared understanding and guidance on how to make that call]
# [23:19] <timeless> ... tests aren't part of the technical deliverables per the Processs
# [23:19] <timeless> ... they aren't cast in concrete like a REC
# [23:19] <chaals> q-
# [23:19] * Zakim sees ArtB, shepazu on the speaker queue
# [23:19] <timeless> ... they can change at any time
# [23:19] <timeless> ... they can start small and gro
# [23:19] * chaals wants to close the queue ...
# [23:19] <timeless> s/gro/grow/
# [23:20] <chaals> shepazu: I think the expectations of the group are higher than the process requires, and I think we should be driving towards interoperability above the worst possible acceptable
# [23:20] <chaals> scribe: chaals
# [23:21] <chaals> glenn: We want the bigger picture. Dunno if W3C process is ideal - there is no compliance testing for example.
# [23:21] <chaals> ack art
# [23:21] * Zakim sees shepazu on the speaker queue
# [23:22] <shepazu> q+
# [23:22] * Zakim sees shepazu on the speaker queue
# [23:22] <chaals> ArtB: Broad IP commitment is important to Nokia. We're happy to look at changes to the process, but we want that to stay. Being more selective about test cases for CR makes a lot of sense. What's the minimalist/core set - I like that idea and it wouldn't stop us adding more test cases to show what still needs work and maybe a rev on the spec.
# [23:22] <chaals> ... if we apply this to web storage, testing is somewhat make-work if everyone has broadly deployed it.
# [23:23] <chaals> ... we could just agree that where we have 4 implementations, we can make that the core tests
# [23:23] <chaals> krisk: agree. The test suite results make it look like web storage is unusable, but that isn't reality - people *do* use it.
# [23:23] <chaals> anne: If you look at it from QA because a site is breaking, then you see a different picture. Now we have to reverse engineer to deal around the lgacy complexity that got allowed to creep in.
# [23:24] <chaals> krisk: to a certain extent we make the problems for ourselves.
# [23:24] <chaals> zakim, close the queue
# [23:24] <Zakim> ok, chaals, the speaker queue is closed
# [23:25] <chaals> ... we didn't change the spec to include something nobody will implement. There are things that we can punt to v2 but instead we slow down by circling where we are.
# [23:25] <sicking> q+
# [23:25] * Zakim whispers to sicking that the speaker queue has been closed
# [23:26] <chaals> zakim, open queue
# [23:26] <Zakim> ok, chaals, the speaker queue is open
# [23:26] <sicking> q+
# [23:26] * Zakim sees shepazu, sicking on the speaker queue
# [23:26] <chaals> shepazu: I think we haven't spent as much time as I would like on when we do the testing.
# [23:26] <chaals> ... people are implementing early on in the spec process. If we want to set tests for stable things early on in development, we would have an improved asymptotic approach to interop, that would help us in cr as well.
# [23:27] <chaals> ... start early, test often.
# [23:27] <chaals> ack she
# [23:27] * Zakim sees sicking on the speaker queue
# [23:27] <chaals> ack sick
# [23:27] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [23:27] * Quits: adrianba (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
# [23:27] <chaals> sicking: my proposal of moving tests to non-required is to avoid habing to build a v2 so soon.
# [23:27] <chaals> ... move the tests back in means we can avoid doing double versions of specs.
# [23:27] <tantek> [then what's the point of moving the spec forward? if not to communicate an expectation of dependability on implementations?]
# [23:28] <chaals> [scribe notes that Anne pointed out again that maintaining two versions of a spec has a real cost in complicating the work of developing it]
# [23:28] <chaals> sicking: to tantek: Very few people are going to use the features. They are not optional, they are just less central to the core usage - which happens in all specs where some things are more important than others.
# [23:29] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [23:29] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/02-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [23:29] <chaals> tantek: there are two harms I have seen. 1: a new implementor gets to a bit that hadn't been done before and discovers that you can't implement the spec.
# [23:29] <chaals> ... CSS 2 has examples.
# [23:30] <chaals> sicking: if CSS2 had a good comprehensive test suite you would have moved a large chunk of tests to optional - and then you would say "wait, if there are that many optional things maybe we don't have the right spec for what matters yet"
# [23:31] <chaals> ... nobody doubts event constructors can be implemented. If a new implementor comes, they won't get stuck.
# [23:31] <chaals> tantek: writing the test often showed that the spec was broken. we are improving - but not perfect.
# [23:32] * ArtB thinks if we really care about interop then we would invest in a certification program ;-)
# [23:33] <tantek> ArtB - CSS 2.1 has quite good interop, without a certification program ;)
# [23:33] <chaals> ... 2nd harm. The expectation of someone who reads the spec is that it works. If they try it and some things don't work, they get disappointed and decide the whole spec is rubbish.
# [23:34] * Quits: Paul_Kinlan (Paul_Kinla@216.239.45.4) (Client exited)
# [23:39] * Quits: ArtB (abarsto@205.248.100.252) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [23:40] * miketaylr is now known as miketaylrawaylol
# Session Close: Thu May 03 00:00:02 2012

The end :)