/irc-logs / w3c / #webapps / 2012-05-03 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu May 03 00:00:02 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #webapps
  3. # [00:10] <timeless> Topic: Testing
  4. # [00:12] * ojan is now known as ojan_away
  5. # [00:12] * timeless [ Agenda Wrangling ]
  6. # [00:12] * timeless [ +Obsolete Specs ]
  7. # [00:12] * timeless [ Testing ]
  8. # [00:12] * timeless [ Meetings / Wrap up / Beer ]
  9. # [00:13] * timeless [[ crickets ]]
  10. # [00:13] * Joins: abarsto (abarsto@205.248.100.252)
  11. # [00:13] * abarsto is now known as ArtB
  12. # [00:13] <timeless> rniwa: I like to write tests
  13. # [00:13] <timeless> ... but it's hard for me to figure out which part of a spec needs tests
  14. # [00:13] <timeless> ... or has tests
  15. # [00:13] <timeless> ... which part of a spec needs testing
  16. # [00:13] <timeless> ... [Coverage]
  17. # [00:14] <timeless> ... I encourage my colleagues and myself to write tests
  18. # [00:14] <timeless> ... but i don't have 4 hours to figure out which tests test which items
  19. # [00:14] <timeless> ... if i remember correctly, each test has a link to the section of the spec
  20. # [00:14] <timeless> ... if we have a tool that could go through the tests
  21. # [00:14] <timeless> ... the CSS Tool called "Shepard" (by plinns)
  22. # [00:14] <plh> q+
  23. # [00:14] * Zakim sees plh on the speaker queue
  24. # [00:14] <timeless> ... that lets you annotate the CSS spec
  25. # [00:15] <timeless> ... to show you which tests exist for a section
  26. # [00:15] <timeless> ... and to go from the tests to the parts of the spec
  27. # [00:15] <bryan> q+
  28. # [00:15] * Zakim sees plh, bryan on the speaker queue
  29. # [00:15] * Joins: adrianba (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  30. # [00:15] <timeless> ack plh
  31. # [00:15] * Zakim sees bryan on the speaker queue
  32. # [00:15] <chaals> i/... the CSS/shepazu:
  33. # [00:15] <timeless> plh: In practice, the CSS WG has the highest bar
  34. # [00:16] <timeless> until you put the metadata, they won't accept their tests
  35. # [00:16] <timeless> s/until/... until/
  36. # [00:16] <rniwa> q+
  37. # [00:16] * Zakim sees bryan, rniwa on the speaker queue
  38. # [00:16] <anne> I think it would be good if we had an annotation system for the specification. If we had that, we could use that to annotate tests. Hixie has written such software for the WHATWG. I'm sure he's willing to share it and have someone make it usable for more than one specification
  39. # [00:16] <timeless> ... this is one of those tradeoffs you have to make
  40. # [00:16] <anne> ^^ is what I'd say if I put myself on the queue
  41. # [00:16] <timeless> ... you saw the w3c test results, it's a modified version of Shepard on the w3c server
  42. # [00:17] <tantek_> in case it is helpful: http://wiki.csswg.org/test/format
  43. # [00:17] <timeless> ... we're still trying to get upstream changes from plinns
  44. # [00:17] <timeless> ... there are two features that we don't have, that he isn't interested in implemented
  45. # [00:17] <timeless> s/implemented/implementing/
  46. # [00:17] <timeless> ... it's written in PHP
  47. # [00:17] <timeless> ... some people donm
  48. # [00:17] <ArtB> -> http://www.w3.org/TR/test-methodology/ A Method for Writing Testable Conformance Requirements
  49. # [00:17] <timeless> s/donm/don't like php/
  50. # [00:17] <tantek_> in particular, here is the meta data that is requested for each test:
  51. # [00:17] <tantek_> <link rel="author" title="NAME_OF_AUTHOR" href="mailto:EMAIL OR http://CONTACT_PAGE">
  52. # [00:17] <tantek_> <link rel="help" href="RELEVANT_SPEC_SECTION">
  53. # [00:17] <tantek_> <meta name="flags" content="TOKENS">
  54. # [00:17] <tantek_> <meta name="assert" content="TEST ASSERTION">
  55. # [00:17] * MikeSmith wonders who does like php?
  56. # [00:17] <timeless> ... if someone came along w/ a Node.js framework based system, we'd take it
  57. # [00:17] <MikeSmith> q?
  58. # [00:17] * Zakim sees bryan, rniwa on the speaker queue
  59. # [00:18] <chaals> ack bry
  60. # [00:18] * Zakim sees rniwa on the speaker queue
  61. # [00:18] <bryan> I've been working on a tool to help spec authors identify the distinct testable assertions in their specs. An quick/dirty demo version is at http://bkaj.net/test/dap/assertions.html.
  62. # [00:18] <timeless> krisk: [=> rniwa ] you could ask the testing list
  63. # [00:18] <timeless> bryan: I've started looking at specs across w3 to show how it could be done
  64. # [00:19] <timeless> ... easy ways to navigate from tests to spec
  65. # [00:19] <timeless> ... annotating the spec with metadata
  66. # [00:19] <timeless> ... i talked with darobin about updating ReSpec.js to incorporate this
  67. # [00:19] <timeless> ... if you go to the tool
  68. # [00:19] <timeless> ... you can click a spec
  69. # [00:19] <timeless> ... and it pulls out the testable statements
  70. # [00:19] <tantek_> as an spec editor, my first reaction is, this is too much work
  71. # [00:19] <timeless> ... one by one
  72. # [00:19] <tantek_> *a
  73. # [00:20] <plh> q?
  74. # [00:20] * Zakim sees rniwa on the speaker queue
  75. # [00:20] <plh> q+
  76. # [00:20] * Zakim sees rniwa, plh on the speaker queue
  77. # [00:20] <timeless> ... at the top is the list of testable assertions
  78. # [00:20] <timeless> ... it's useful for structuring tests
  79. # [00:21] <timeless> plh: it's pretty limiting
  80. # [00:21] <tantek> q+ to say this spec markup just moves the problem from one rare resource (test authors) to an even *rarer* resource (spec editors)
  81. # [00:21] * Zakim sees rniwa, plh, tantek on the speaker queue
  82. # [00:21] <timeless> ... some things may not have a MUST
  83. # [00:21] <timeless> bryan: in order to test things
  84. # [00:21] <plh> q-
  85. # [00:21] * Zakim sees rniwa, tantek on the speaker queue
  86. # [00:21] <timeless> ... you need to be rigorous in terms of how you describe them
  87. # [00:21] <timeless> ... if it's difficult to pull them out
  88. # [00:22] <timeless> ... i don't think that's easy for the people to write the tests
  89. # [00:22] <timeless> ... maybe people need clearer statements to decide what to test
  90. # [00:22] <chaals> ack mi
  91. # [00:22] * Zakim sees rniwa, tantek on the speaker queue
  92. # [00:22] <ArtB> ACTION: barstow make sure all of WebApps' new Editors are at least aware of http://www.w3.org/TR/test-methodology/
  93. # [00:22] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  94. # [00:22] * RRSAgent records action 2
  95. # [00:22] <trackbot> Created ACTION-662 - Make sure all of WebApps' new Editors are at least aware of http://www.w3.org/TR/test-methodology/ [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-05-09].
  96. # [00:22] <timeless> rniwa: I agree with your statement
  97. # [00:22] <timeless> ... if we have thousands of tests
  98. # [00:22] <timeless> ... it's had for me to figure out
  99. # [00:22] <timeless> ... at some point it doesn't scale well
  100. # [00:23] <ArtB> ACTION: bryan seriously consider using http://www.w3.org/TR/test-methodology/ in Push Events spec
  101. # [00:23] * RRSAgent records action 3
  102. # [00:23] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  103. # [00:23] <trackbot> Created ACTION-663 - Seriously consider using http://www.w3.org/TR/test-methodology/ in Push Events spec [on Bryan Sullivan - due 2012-05-09].
  104. # [00:23] <timeless> ... Ideally, as a test author, i'd just like to go to one page
  105. # [00:23] <timeless> ... and have it tell me which part of the test needs tests
  106. # [00:23] <timeless> ... and which part of the section
  107. # [00:23] <timeless> shepazu: and you're writing something to do this?
  108. # [00:23] <timeless> rniwa: it's hard for me to figure out which part of the spec to write for
  109. # [00:24] <timeless> ... as is, i'd have to know all tests
  110. # [00:24] <timeless> ... in WebKit, for regression tests, it's easy
  111. # [00:24] <timeless> ... you just have a testcase, because if you had a test, we'd have failed and seen and fixed the bug
  112. # [00:24] <timeless> ... but for conformance tests
  113. # [00:24] <timeless> ... it's unclear
  114. # [00:24] <chaals> ack tan
  115. # [00:24] <Zakim> tantek, you wanted to say this spec markup just moves the problem from one rare resource (test authors) to an even *rarer* resource (spec editors)
  116. # [00:24] * Zakim sees rniwa on the speaker queue
  117. # [00:24] <timeless> tantek: i don't think putting the burden of explicit markup into the spec is a good idea
  118. # [00:25] <chaals> q+ to disagree with tantek...
  119. # [00:25] * Zakim sees rniwa, chaals on the speaker queue
  120. # [00:25] <timeless> ... i think from the resource perspective, it's the complete wrong idea
  121. # [00:25] <timeless> ... you're moving the burden from test authors to spec authors
  122. # [00:25] <timeless> ... and spec authors are a rarer resource
  123. # [00:25] <timeless> ... if anything, you should move it the other way, or to machines
  124. # [00:25] <timeless> ... there are ways to write better specs
  125. # [00:25] <timeless> ... writing testable assertions
  126. # [00:25] * chaals simply refuses to work on having machines go for a beer on my behalf
  127. # [00:25] <timeless> ... but writing markup is a mistake
  128. # [00:26] <timeless> ... it should be possible to interpret specs
  129. # [00:26] <tantek_> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Test/HTML401/current/assertions/prologue.html
  130. # [00:26] <timeless> ... it's what MS did for the HTML4 WG in 2002
  131. # [00:26] <timeless> ... we documented how we generated them
  132. # [00:26] <bryan> q+ to note that avoiding authors to markup tests is the intent of developing tools that automatically do this, and help the authors to better structure their normative statements for clarity to testers.
  133. # [00:26] * Zakim sees rniwa, chaals, bryan on the speaker queue
  134. # [00:26] <timeless> ... infamously it was claimed there were no testable assertions
  135. # [00:26] <timeless> ... we found plenty
  136. # [00:26] <timeless> ... it was plh who said the CSS WG had strict metadata requirements
  137. # [00:26] <tantek_> http://wiki.csswg.org/test/format
  138. # [00:27] <MikeSmith> qq?
  139. # [00:27] <MikeSmith> q?
  140. # [00:27] * Zakim sees rniwa, chaals, bryan on the speaker queue
  141. # [00:27] <timeless> s|http://wiki.csswg.org/test/format|-> http://wiki.csswg.org/test/format CSS Test Format Requirements (metadata)|
  142. # [00:27] <timeless> ... the requirements are pretty minimal
  143. # [00:27] * rniwa Zakim: i think you removed tantek instead of rniwa
  144. # [00:27] <chaals> ack mi
  145. # [00:27] * Zakim sees rniwa, chaals, bryan on the speaker queue
  146. # [00:28] <chaals> ack rni
  147. # [00:28] * Zakim sees chaals, bryan on the speaker queue
  148. # [00:28] <timeless> > <link rel="author" title="NAME_OF_AUTHOR" href="mailto:EMAIL OR http://CONTACT_PAGE"/>
  149. # [00:28] <timeless> > <link rel="help" href="RELEVANT_SPEC_SECTION"/>
  150. # [00:28] <timeless> tantek: those two lines aren't much effort
  151. # [00:28] <timeless> ... and from that you can generate a lot of stuff
  152. # [00:29] <timeless> ack chaals
  153. # [00:29] <Zakim> chaals, you wanted to disagree with tantek...
  154. # [00:29] * Zakim sees bryan on the speaker queue
  155. # [00:29] <timeless> chaals: i agree that you don't want to make this monstrous pile of work for spec editors
  156. # [00:29] * Quits: DanD (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  157. # [00:29] <timeless> ... when i write specs internally, i write "MUST" and put a class on it
  158. # [00:29] <timeless> ... using a WYSIWYG editor, that's a trivial operation
  159. # [00:29] <timeless> ... and just that, it's pretty easy to do
  160. # [00:29] <timeless> ... i find that helpful, as a spec author
  161. # [00:30] <timeless> ... i can say "oh, this says everything, but the bit that really matters"
  162. # [00:30] <timeless> ... you need an easy to use extractor
  163. # [00:30] <timeless> ... if i had to spend hours going through the markup, i wouldn't do it
  164. # [00:30] <timeless> ... as shepazu says, it isn't busy work
  165. # [00:30] <timeless> ... but i can know my spec is better than what you expect from me
  166. # [00:30] <chaals> ack bry
  167. # [00:30] <Zakim> bryan, you wanted to note that avoiding authors to markup tests is the intent of developing tools that automatically do this, and help the authors to better structure their
  168. # [00:30] <Zakim> ... normative statements for clarity to testers.
  169. # [00:30] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  170. # [00:31] <timeless> bryan: we should shoot for tools that do stuff automatically
  171. # [00:31] <timeless> ... even add markup
  172. # [00:31] <timeless> ... editors need to be ok with their specs being augmented
  173. # [00:31] <timeless> ... i suggested in DAP
  174. # [00:31] <chaals> q+ to channel anne
  175. # [00:31] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
  176. # [00:31] <timeless> ... maybe members could support the editors
  177. # [00:31] <timeless> ... who identify testability of a spec
  178. # [00:31] <timeless> ... and actually manually add those things
  179. # [00:32] <anne> q+
  180. # [00:32] * Zakim sees chaals, anne on the speaker queue
  181. # [00:32] <timeless> ... so people can focus on different things concurrently
  182. # [00:32] <chaals> q- later
  183. # [00:32] * Zakim sees anne, chaals on the speaker queue
  184. # [00:32] <timeless> ... i don't want to add extra work for spec editors
  185. # [00:32] <timeless> [ Spec editors are ... ... delicate flowers ]
  186. # [00:32] <timeless> anne: i mentioned on irc, we should have the whatwg annotation system in W3C
  187. # [00:32] <timeless> ... it allows most people to add annotations
  188. # [00:32] <bryan> one other thing I suggested in DAP was that editors could have the assistance of members focused on the testability of the spec, and add annotations classes etc, working alongside the spec editors.
  189. # [00:32] <timeless> ... you can add notes, tests, ...
  190. # [00:33] <rniwa> q+
  191. # [00:33] * Zakim sees anne, chaals, rniwa on the speaker queue
  192. # [00:33] <tantek_> link?
  193. # [00:33] <timeless> ... this feature isn't implemented, it's stable, it's fairly broken, ...
  194. # [00:33] <timeless> ack anne
  195. # [00:33] * Zakim sees chaals, rniwa on the speaker queue
  196. # [00:33] <tantek_> to documentation of whatwg annotation system?
  197. # [00:33] <timeless> ... it's disconnected from the specification
  198. # [00:33] <plh> is it http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/status-documentation.html ?
  199. # [00:33] <timeless> ... but they're displayed together
  200. # [00:33] <chaals> q- later
  201. # [00:33] * Zakim sees rniwa, chaals on the speaker queue
  202. # [00:33] <timeless> ... it works broadly
  203. # [00:33] <timeless> ... you can file bugs from it
  204. # [00:35] * Quits: magnus (magnus@205.248.100.252) (Ping timeout)
  205. # [00:35] <timeless> plh: is it documented?
  206. # [00:35] <timeless> anne: i think the code is proprietary from Hixie
  207. # [00:35] * Joins: DanD (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  208. # [00:35] <timeless> ... i think he could put it somewhere
  209. # [00:36] <timeless> anne: i don't think there's a complete description
  210. # [00:36] * rniwa http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/elements.html#the-style-attribute
  211. # [00:37] <timeless> http://ms2ger.freehostia.com/tests/html5/global-attributes/reftests/style-01.html
  212. # [00:37] <timeless> The requested URL /tests/html5/global-attributes/reftests/style-01.html was not found on this server.
  213. # [00:37] <timeless> Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.
  214. # [00:37] * hober 404ed!
  215. # [00:37] <timeless> [ Laughter ]
  216. # [00:38] <tantek_> ms2ger - we're looking at some of your HTML5 tests
  217. # [00:38] <chaals> ack rni
  218. # [00:38] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
  219. # [00:38] <timeless> rniwa: it would be nice if we had a dashboard
  220. # [00:39] <timeless> ... showing how many tests per section of the spec
  221. # [00:39] <timeless> ... showing how many sections we have in a test
  222. # [00:39] * timeless hober : look @ screen
  223. # [00:39] <tantek_> or maybe test density
  224. # [00:39] <tantek_> like tests per 1000 characters ;)
  225. # [00:39] <timeless> ... @TPAC, I had trouble observing all the information needed for a test
  226. # [00:39] <timeless> ... it'd be nice for a 5 yo. to look at a wiki and write a test
  227. # [00:39] * chaals hears ryosuke volunteering to write up a wiki and work on playing with a tool...
  228. # [00:39] <tantek_> +1 on using wikis
  229. # [00:39] <plh> -> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/Testing/Authoring/ Guidelines for Authoring tests
  230. # [00:39] <tantek_> for collaboratively writing / improving tests
  231. # [00:40] * rniwa possibily
  232. # [00:40] * timeless --------------------------- /me WebKit2WebProcess.exe - System Error /me --------------------------- /me The program can't start because QTCF.dll is missing from your computer. Try reinstalling the program to fix this problem. /me --------------------------- /me OK /me ---------------------------
  233. # [00:40] <chaals> ack me
  234. # [00:40] <Zakim> chaals, you wanted to channel anne
  235. # [00:40] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  236. # [00:40] <timeless> chaals: i wanted to channel anne , but he channeled himself
  237. # [00:40] <krisk> correct link -> http://www.w3c-test.org/html/tests/submission/Ms2ger/global-attributes/style-01.html
  238. # [00:40] * ArtB notes Widgets spec has an impl dashboard although not the same thing Ryosuke was talking about http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/widgets/imp-report/
  239. # [00:40] <timeless> ... we'd like to have a Pony
  240. # [00:40] <timeless> ... free beer at the start of every meeting
  241. # [00:40] <krisk> ..and IE passes this test just fine
  242. # [00:40] <timeless> ... and some tools
  243. # [00:41] <timeless> ... any volunteer to ask Hixie about borrowing his code?
  244. # [00:41] <timeless> ... rniwa, you look busy
  245. # [00:41] <timeless> rniwa: i'm talking to Hixie now
  246. # [00:41] <krisk> The list is a good spot to ask questions e.g. public-webapps-testsuite@w3.org
  247. # [00:42] <timeless> [ Chrome and Safari both fail the reftest, nightly and ie9x64 pass - http://ms2ger.freehostia.com/tests/html5/global-attributes/style-01.html ]
  248. # [00:42] <timeless> chaals: anything else we should talk about?
  249. # [00:42] <timeless> ... do we need documentation for test harnesses?
  250. # [00:42] <rniwa> Ian says he can open-source and let anyone use it.
  251. # [00:42] <timeless> q?
  252. # [00:42] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  253. # [00:42] <tantek> q+ to mention Restyle in the context of testability / test suite writing
  254. # [00:42] * Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
  255. # [00:42] <chaals> [sweet. thanks Ian]
  256. # [00:42] <rniwa> who should contact Ian about that?
  257. # [00:42] <timeless> krisk: in my experience, browser vendors create better tests when they start implementing features
  258. # [00:43] <chaals> [/me wonders how conceptually different it is from Annotea]
  259. # [00:43] <timeless> ... there is wiki information on a bunch of that stuff
  260. # [00:43] <timeless> ... there's someone from korea who came out of the blue
  261. # [00:43] <timeless> ... if you aren't on the list <public-webapps-testsuite@w3.org>, it's harder
  262. # [00:43] <timeless> chaals: I suggest we close the topic
  263. # [00:44] <tantek_> www.w3.org/wiki/SpecProd/Restyle
  264. # [00:44] <timeless> tantek: i want to suggest the Spec ReStyle effort at W3
  265. # [00:44] <timeless> s|www.w3.org/wiki/SpecProd/Restyle|-> http://www.w3.org/wiki/SpecProd/Restyle Spec ReStyle effort at W3|
  266. # [00:44] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  267. # [00:44] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/02-webapps-minutes.html timeless
  268. # [00:44] <timeless> Topic: Meetings
  269. # [00:45] <timeless> paulc: I had a simple observation
  270. # [00:45] <timeless> ... the HTML WG is meeting tomorrow and the next day
  271. # [00:45] <timeless> ... and we expect the next opportunity is TPAC in Fall
  272. # [00:45] <timeless> ... as Co-chair at the HTML WG, I proposed we not overlap
  273. # [00:45] <timeless> ... and WebApps is MT and HTML is ThF
  274. # [00:45] <timeless> ... if WebApps wants to go ThF, we could flip that around
  275. # [00:46] <timeless> ... but we should be intentional about this
  276. # [00:46] <timeless> ArtB: chaals responding MT and said the same thing
  277. # [00:46] <timeless> paulc: ok, so both WGs can make independent decisions about going to TPAC
  278. # [00:46] <timeless> chaals: we've done that explicitly, more or less deliberately
  279. # [00:46] <timeless> ... this group has only met @TPAC
  280. # [00:46] <timeless> ... for a number of years
  281. # [00:47] <timeless> ... TPAC has helped, 40-50 people
  282. # [00:47] <timeless> ... TPAC is hard work
  283. # [00:47] <timeless> ... it's the meeting where people are present
  284. # [00:47] <timeless> ... HTML, SVG, CSS, Audio, etc.
  285. # [00:47] <timeless> ... I believe we should keep going there
  286. # [00:47] <timeless> ... it's worth going there
  287. # [00:47] <timeless> ... is there anyone who think we shouldn't go there?
  288. # [00:48] <timeless> ArtB: it's in our charter
  289. # [00:48] <timeless> chaals: we could ignore our charter
  290. # [00:48] <timeless> ... we started talking about it months ago
  291. # [00:48] <timeless> ... how many people will go this year?
  292. # [00:48] <timeless> ArtB: who isn't planning to go?
  293. # [00:48] <timeless> [ Essentially no hands ]
  294. # [00:49] <ArtB> -> http://www.w3.org/2012/webapps/charter/ Face-to-face: we will meet during the W3C's annual Technical Plenary week
  295. # [00:50] * Quits: whitech (whitech@66.75.249.133) (Quit: Instantbird 1.1)
  296. # [00:50] <timeless> chaals: if we did a meeting next time in the US at this time of the year
  297. # [00:50] <timeless> ... who is unlikely to go?
  298. # [00:50] <timeless> [ no serious hands ]
  299. # [00:50] <timeless> chaals: if we had a meeting outside the US, who is unlikely to go?
  300. # [00:50] <timeless> [ no hands ]
  301. # [00:50] <timeless> chaals: excellent, we'll have a meeting in ...
  302. # [00:51] <timeless> MikeSmith: what i'm looking at now is the HTML5 bug tracker
  303. # [00:51] <timeless> ... that shows the state of my life
  304. # [00:52] <timeless> chaals: is there a better way to do this meeting
  305. # [00:52] <timeless> ... than to do this meeting together?
  306. # [00:52] <timeless> ... other than having widgets as a split
  307. # [00:52] <timeless> shepazu: this was effectively an unconference
  308. # [00:52] <timeless> ... i didn't hear any exceptions
  309. # [00:53] <timeless> chaals: tpac with 60 people in the room could be painful
  310. # [00:53] <timeless> ArtB: we could say no to observers
  311. # [00:53] <timeless> Josh_Soref: you'll lose the scribe
  312. # [00:53] <timeless> shepazu: that's a big difference
  313. # [00:53] <timeless> adrianba: i'd support beer in the requirements
  314. # [00:54] <timeless> chaals: so, this will be the way we'll work then
  315. # [00:54] <timeless> ArtB: so paulc, when will you make the decision on TPAC?
  316. # [00:54] <timeless> paulc: the WG has always sent out a we'll go
  317. # [00:54] <timeless> ... and there has never been a respose
  318. # [00:54] <timeless> ... we'll ask tomorrow
  319. # [00:54] <timeless> ... and ask for a response on friday
  320. # [00:54] <timeless> ... i don't know how many of the members here have overlap
  321. # [00:54] <timeless> ... we're trying to get to REC
  322. # [00:55] <timeless> ... there's pressure on W3C to get an HTML5 REC
  323. # [00:55] <timeless> ... using F2F time to get REC makes sense
  324. # [00:55] <timeless> ... we'll see what they say
  325. # [00:56] <timeless> chaals: I apologize to paulc about our unexpected efficiency
  326. # [00:56] <timeless> [ The meeting room was extended to 6pm ]
  327. # [00:57] <timeless> [ Break until 4pm ]
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  333. # [01:07] * hober timeless: have you run apple software update recently?
  334. # [01:07] * Joins: abarsto (abarsto@205.248.100.252)
  335. # [01:07] * abarsto is now known as ArtB
  336. # [01:07] <timeless> Topic: Warnings for old DOM Specifications
  337. # [01:07] <ArtB> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2012AprJun/att-0044/warnings.html Msger's Proposals
  338. # [01:08] <ArtB> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2012AprJun/0062.html Bjoern's comments
  339. # [01:08] <smaug_> next TPAC will be on the better side of the world?
  340. # [01:10] <anne> smaug_: France I think
  341. # [01:10] * timeless TPAC will be in France
  342. # [01:10] * timeless Lyon
  343. # [01:11] <ArtB> -> http://www.w3.org/TR/2000/REC-DOM-Level-2-Views-20001113/ DOM Level 2 Views Warning
  344. # [01:11] <timeless> chaals: warnings for old DOM specifications
  345. # [01:11] <timeless> ... and others
  346. # [01:11] <timeless> ... it is generally believed that, e.g. DOM2 Events
  347. # [01:11] <anne> smaug_: so if by better you mean non-US, yes
  348. # [01:11] <timeless> ... is obsolete
  349. # [01:11] <timeless> ... and probably not the best reference
  350. # [01:11] <smaug_> ok, thanks
  351. # [01:11] <timeless> ... if you're looking for a DOM Events specification
  352. # [01:11] <timeless> ... two questions:
  353. # [01:11] <timeless> ... what should we do
  354. # [01:11] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  355. # [01:11] <timeless> ... what should it say?
  356. # [01:12] <timeless> ... for people who look for things to be shifted to ISO
  357. # [01:12] <timeless> ... some people say people look for things that work
  358. # [01:12] <timeless> ... we had a proposal to do this
  359. # [01:12] <timeless> ... we got an email from bjorn
  360. # [01:12] <timeless> s/bjorn/bjoern/
  361. # [01:13] <timeless> ... identifying technicalities
  362. # [01:13] <timeless> ArtB: he objects to
  363. # [01:13] <timeless> ... the pointer to the replacement doc being an ED
  364. # [01:13] <timeless> ... he finds that not acceptable
  365. # [01:13] <timeless> ... if we were to point to a WIP
  366. # [01:13] <timeless> ... it should be a /TR/
  367. # [01:14] <adrianba> q+
  368. # [01:14] * Zakim sees tantek, adrianba on the speaker queue
  369. # [01:14] <timeless> ... because an ED by definition is constantly changing
  370. # [01:14] <tantek> q-
  371. # [01:14] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
  372. # [01:14] <timeless> ... the rest of his comments were nits about specific text
  373. # [01:14] <timeless> q?
  374. # [01:14] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
  375. # [01:14] <timeless> ack adrianba
  376. # [01:14] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  377. # [01:14] <timeless> adrianba: i can't talk a lot about this
  378. # [01:15] <timeless> ... MS has regulatory requirements around W3 RECs
  379. # [01:15] <timeless> ... a note that suggesting you shouldn't read the document would be a problem for us
  380. # [01:15] <timeless> ... however, a note saying the document isn't actively being maintained
  381. # [01:15] <timeless> ... with a pointer to something being actively maintained
  382. # [01:15] <timeless> ... would be acceptable
  383. # [01:15] <timeless> paulc: when we discussed this in the HTML WG
  384. # [01:15] <timeless> ... i had a talk with Ian Jacobs
  385. # [01:16] <timeless> ... when they redid the w3 web site
  386. # [01:16] <anne> Example of where this is done today: http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-Views/
  387. # [01:16] <timeless> ... they put the oldest specs at the top
  388. # [01:16] <timeless> ... the underlying cause of this
  389. # [01:16] <timeless> q+ chaals
  390. # [01:16] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
  391. # [01:16] <timeless> ... is that you see the old specs
  392. # [01:16] <adrianba> s/something being/something describing what is/
  393. # [01:16] <timeless> ... I'm working with IanJ to improve this
  394. # [01:16] <timeless> ... in particular, it includes XHTML in the HTML specs
  395. # [01:17] <timeless> ... one of the underlying causes here
  396. # [01:17] <timeless> ... is that people do this search
  397. # [01:17] <timeless> ... and it fills their screen
  398. # [01:17] <timeless> ... and you don't even see DOM4
  399. # [01:17] <timeless> ... some of us are working on the underlying cause
  400. # [01:17] <timeless> q?
  401. # [01:17] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
  402. # [01:17] <timeless> ack
  403. # [01:17] * Quits: ekr (ekr@205.248.100.252) (Quit: ekr)
  404. # [01:17] <timeless> s/ack //
  405. # [01:17] <timeless> ack ch
  406. # [01:17] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  407. # [01:17] <timeless> chaals: there are regulatory problems
  408. # [01:18] <timeless> ... other things
  409. # [01:18] <timeless> ... If you go to DOM0, or DOM4, or DOM3E, or DOM2E
  410. # [01:18] <timeless> ... what we have is "This version, latest version, previous version"
  411. # [01:18] <timeless> ... we probably need something more intelligent
  412. # [01:18] <timeless> ... a bit of wordsmithing to do
  413. # [01:19] <timeless> Josh_Soref: adrianba, are these a problem for MS?
  414. # [01:19] <timeless> adrianba: it isn't my problem
  415. # [01:19] <timeless> s/problem/preference/
  416. # [01:19] <timeless> ... my preference is a link to a page that lays out the status of the dom specifications
  417. # [01:20] <timeless> ArtB: so, the last sentence could be tweaked
  418. # [01:20] <timeless> ... a pointer to a wiki doc?
  419. # [01:20] <tantek_> how about start with w3.org/wiki/dom ?
  420. # [01:20] <timeless> chaals: DOM4 isn't the only relevant spec
  421. # [01:20] <timeless> ... DOM3E has said it doesn't want to point to DOM4
  422. # [01:21] <tantek_> and here's a stub, feel free to contribute: http://www.w3.org/wiki/Dom
  423. # [01:21] * timeless tantek_ thanks
  424. # [01:21] <timeless> anne: there was a CfC
  425. # [01:21] <timeless> ... it passed
  426. # [01:21] <timeless> chaals: no, it didn't pass
  427. # [01:22] <timeless> ... no mail from Chairs
  428. # [01:22] <tantek_> oh look, there was a http://www.w3.org/wiki/DOM already, now redirected to that.
  429. # [01:23] <timeless> Josh_Soref: adrianba, is this better?
  430. # [01:23] <timeless> adrianba: yes
  431. # [01:23] * Joins: chaals (chaals@205.248.100.252)
  432. # [01:24] <timeless> Josh_Soref: my preference is for this, since I don't want to bikeshed dom4 => dom5 references when we finish DOM4
  433. # [01:24] * Joins: magnus (magnus@205.248.100.252)
  434. # [01:25] <timeless> Josh_Soref: change the last sentence to "Please see [wiki/[Category]] for the status of ..."
  435. # [01:25] <timeless> chaals: thank you very much to paulc, Microsoft for hosting
  436. # [01:26] <timeless> [ Applause ]
  437. # [01:26] <timeless> chaals: thanks to Josh_Soref for scribing
  438. # [01:26] <timeless> [ Applause ]
  439. # [01:26] <timeless> chaals: it takes a special person to scribe a two day meeting
  440. # [01:26] <timeless> ... where's the beer?
  441. # [01:26] <shepazu> s/special person/special sort of person/
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  444. # [01:27] <tantek_> http://www.cafeborrone.com/
  445. # [01:27] <tantek_> 1010 El Camino Real, Menlo Park, CA 94025 | 650-327-0830
  446. # [01:28] <timeless> [ Adjourned ]
  447. # [01:28] <timeless> RRSAgent, make minutes
  448. # [01:28] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/02-webapps-minutes.html timeless
  449. # [01:28] <timeless> trackbot, end meeting
  450. # [01:28] * trackbot is ending a teleconference
  451. # [01:28] <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
  452. # [01:28] <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
  453. # [01:29] * Quits: Russell_Berkoff (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
  454. # [01:29] <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
  455. # [01:29] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/02-webapps-minutes.html trackbot
  456. # [01:29] <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
  457. # [01:29] <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/05/02-webapps-actions.rdf :
  458. # [01:29] <RRSAgent> ACTION: adrianba to liaise with Robin to ensure feature detection is part of his API design document [1]
  459. # [01:29] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/05/02-webapps-irc#T19-09-43
  460. # [01:29] <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow make sure all of WebApps' new Editors are at least aware of http://www.w3.org/TR/test-methodology/ [2]
  461. # [01:29] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/05/02-webapps-irc#T22-14-36
  462. # [01:29] <RRSAgent> ACTION: bryan seriously consider using http://www.w3.org/TR/test-methodology/ in Push Events spec [3]
  463. # [01:29] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/05/02-webapps-irc#T22-15-26
  464. # [01:29] * Parts: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.169)
  465. # [01:30] * Parts: adrianba (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  466. # [01:30] <plh> -> http://mozilla.github.com/webapps-spec/ Web Application Manifest Format and Management APIs
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  468. # [01:34] <anne> http://www.w3.org/2006/webapi/ <- Web API did it better
  469. # [01:34] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@205.248.100.252) (Quit: MikeSmith)
  470. # [01:35] <timeless> http://pastebin.mozilla.org/1613039
  471. # [01:36] <ArtB> http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/
  472. # [01:36] <timeless> http://pastebin.mozilla.org/1613040
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  672. # Session Close: Fri May 04 00:00:00 2012

The end :)