/irc-logs / w3c / #webapps / 2012-10-29 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Oct 29 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #webapps
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  41. # [08:59] <ArtB> Meeting: WebApps f2f Meeting
  42. # [09:00] <ArtB> Date: 29 October 2012
  43. # [09:00] <ArtB> Chair: Art, Charles
  44. # [09:00] <ArtB> Scribe: Josh
  45. # [09:00] <ArtB> ScribeNick: timeless
  46. # [09:00] * timeless changes topic to 'http://irc.w3.org #webapps'
  47. # [09:00] * timeless changes topic to 'http://irc.w3.org #webapps TPAC 2012 WebApps F2F'
  48. # [09:00] <ArtB> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/TPAC2012Meeting
  49. # [09:00] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  50. # [09:00] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-minutes.html timeless
  51. # [09:00] <ArtB> Present: Art_Barstow
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  54. # [09:01] <timeless> present+ timeless
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  57. # [09:01] <timeless> RRSAgent, make logs public
  58. # [09:01] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, timeless
  59. # [09:01] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  60. # [09:01] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-minutes.html timeless
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  62. # [09:02] <timeless> s/present+ timeless/present+ Josh_Soref/
  63. # [09:02] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  64. # [09:02] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-minutes.html timeless
  65. # [09:02] <bryan> present+ Bryan_Sullivan
  66. # [09:02] <timeless> s/Scribe: Josh/Scribe: Josh_Soref/
  67. # [09:02] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  68. # [09:02] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-minutes.html timeless
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  76. # [09:05] <chaals> Present+ chaals
  77. # [09:05] <jaubourg> present+ Julian_Aubourg
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  79. # [09:05] <aklein> present+ Adam_Klein
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  83. # [09:06] <timeless> topic: Introductions
  84. # [09:06] * Joins: dnkim (~dnkim@public.irc.w3.org)
  85. # [09:06] <jgraham> present+ jgraham
  86. # [09:07] <timeless> chaals: welcome to webapps, everybody
  87. # [09:07] <timeless> [ Applause ]
  88. # [09:07] <timeless> ArtB: we're happy to be here
  89. # [09:07] * Joins: Oh (~Oh@public.irc.w3.org)
  90. # [09:07] <zcorpan> present+ zcorpan
  91. # [09:07] <timeless> chaals: in IETF, they have the hum, we get the W3C clap
  92. # [09:07] <timeless> ... this is a big meeting
  93. # [09:07] * Joins: rafaelw (~uid4459@public.cloak)
  94. # [09:07] <timeless> ... we're going to be really strict about making you Join Queues
  95. # [09:07] <timeless> ... and use the microphone
  96. # [09:07] * Quits: takoratta (~takoratta@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 20 seconds)
  97. # [09:08] <timeless> ... I'm Charles
  98. # [09:08] <timeless> ... the first thing i'm going to do is ask everyone to introduce themselves
  99. # [09:08] <timeless> ... say who you are, where you work, and if you have any particular spec that interests you
  100. # [09:08] <timeless> ... I'm Charles, I work for Yandex, i'm interested in just about everything
  101. # [09:08] <timeless> shepazu: I'm Doug Sheppers, I'm one of 2 w3c staff contacts
  102. # [09:09] <timeless> krisk: Kris, Microsoft, testing
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  106. # [09:09] <adrianba> Present+ adrianba
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  108. # [09:10] <timeless> adrianba: Adrian Bateman, Microsoft, I'm interested
  109. # [09:10] * Joins: pbakaus (~pbakaus@public.irc.w3.org)
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  113. # [09:10] <timeless> BO_HU_CHINA_UNICOM: Bo Hu, China Unicom, i'm interested in Push API
  114. # [09:10] <timeless> Bo_Chen: Bo Chen, China Unicom, i'm interested in this WG and related groups
  115. # [09:10] * Joins: Yuan (~Yuan@public.cloak)
  116. # [09:10] <timeless> ArtB: Art Barstow, Co-chair with chaals, Nokia, all specs
  117. # [09:11] <npdoty> timeless: Josh Soren, from RIM, not yet a member of the WG
  118. # [09:11] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@public.cloak)
  119. # [09:11] <timeless> pbakaus: Paul Bakaus, XXX, YYY
  120. # [09:11] <timeless> sicking: Jonas Sicking, Mozilla, all specs
  121. # [09:11] <npdoty> from Zynga, everything that helps games
  122. # [09:11] <npdoty> s/XXX/Zynga/
  123. # [09:11] <npdoty> s/YYY/everything that helps games/
  124. # [09:12] * Joins: sgodard (~sgodard@public.cloak)
  125. # [09:12] <timeless> jaubourg: Julian Bourg, AAA
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  128. # [09:12] <timeless> mklein: BBB, Google
  129. # [09:12] <timeless> rafaelw: Rafael W, Google, CCC
  130. # [09:12] <timeless> DDD: DDE, Intel, processors
  131. # [09:12] <npdoty> s/AAA/jQuery Foundation, interested in the Web/
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  133. # [09:12] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@public.cloak)
  134. # [09:12] <timeless> Yuan: Yuan, Nokia, everything
  135. # [09:13] <timeless> EEE: EEF, Google, DOM Specs
  136. # [09:13] <tlr> s/DDE/Wayne Carr/
  137. # [09:13] <timeless> FFF: FFG
  138. # [09:13] <timeless> GGG: GGH
  139. # [09:13] * Joins: rotsuya (~rotsuya@public.irc.w3.org)
  140. # [09:13] <timeless> HHH: HHI, Google, Web Components
  141. # [09:13] <timeless> JJJ: JJK
  142. # [09:13] <shan> present+ Soonbo_Han
  143. # [09:13] <timeless> shan: Soon bo han
  144. # [09:13] * Joins: nkic (~nkikkawa@public.cloak)
  145. # [09:14] <morrita> s/HHH/morrita/
  146. # [09:14] * Joins: haraken (~haraken@public.irc.w3.org)
  147. # [09:14] * zcorpan is Simon Pieters
  148. # [09:14] <timeless> KKK: KKL, Opera
  149. # [09:14] * Joins: wseltzer (wseltzer@public.irc.w3.org)
  150. # [09:14] <timeless> s/KKK/spieters/
  151. # [09:14] <takuya> tatakuya from Google. IME API
  152. # [09:14] <bryan> Bryan Sullivan from AT&T, co-editing the Push API spec, AC rep, interested in most specs but especially storage specs and File* specs
  153. # [09:14] <timeless> odinho_: Odin, Opera, OOO
  154. # [09:14] <timeless> LLL: LLM, Opera
  155. # [09:14] <jgraham> jgraham: James Graham, Opera
  156. # [09:14] <KenjiBX> KenjiBX ; Kenji Baheux ; Google ; general interest in WebApps spec ; particular interest in proposed IME API.
  157. # [09:14] <shan> s/Soon bo/Soonbo/
  158. # [09:14] <haraken> haraken from Google. DOM specs.
  159. # [09:14] <timeless> bryan: bryan Sullivan, AT&T AC Rep, MM
  160. # [09:14] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@public.cloak)
  161. # [09:15] <timeless> paul: Paul Cotton, Microsoft, HTML co-chair
  162. # [09:15] <aklein> s/BBB/Adam Klein/
  163. # [09:15] <timeless> PPP: PPU
  164. # [09:15] * Joins: Shinji (shinji@public.cloak)
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  166. # [09:15] <timeless> yoske: QQQ
  167. # [09:15] <Lachy> s/LLL: LLM, Opera/Lachlan Hunt, Opera, editor of Selectors API/
  168. # [09:15] <odinho_> s/OOO/interest in most specs, but listens most carefully for IndexedDB atm/
  169. # [09:15] <timeless> RRR: RRA
  170. # [09:15] <timeless> SSS: SST
  171. # [09:15] <efullea> efullea: Eduardo Fullea, co-editing Push API spec
  172. # [09:15] <shan> s/Soonbo/Soonbo from LGE/
  173. # [09:16] * Joins: MagnusOlsson (~MagnusOlsson@public.cloak)
  174. # [09:16] <timeless> tomoyuki: SSU
  175. # [09:16] <timeless> TTT: TTU
  176. # [09:16] <efullea> efullea: Eduardo Fullea, Telefonica, co-editing Push API spec
  177. # [09:16] * Quits: tleithea (~5bd9a8dc@public.cloak) ("CGI:IRC")
  178. # [09:16] <timeless> amirabella: Amira Bella, CDE
  179. # [09:16] <Oh> Jong Soo Oh, LGE
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  182. # [09:16] <timeless> wseltzer: Wendy Seltzter, W3C
  183. # [09:16] * Joins: Travis (~5bd9a8dc@public.cloak)
  184. # [09:16] <amirabella> s/Amira Bella, CDE/Anthony Mirabella, Synacor
  185. # [09:16] <timeless> CDF: CDG
  186. # [09:16] <amirabella> s/Amira Bella, CDE/Anthony Mirabella, Synacor/
  187. # [09:16] <tomoyuki> s/SSU/Tomoyuki from KDDI, Japan/
  188. # [09:16] <wseltzer> s/Seltzter/Seltzer/
  189. # [09:16] <timeless> CDH: CDJ
  190. # [09:16] <timeless> CDK: CDL
  191. # [09:16] <a12u> Hiroyuki Aizu, TOSHIBA , interested in Web components and WebIntents
  192. # [09:16] <timeless> jfmoy: CDM
  193. # [09:17] <timeless> CDP: CDQ
  194. # [09:17] * Quits: haraken (~haraken@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 20 seconds)
  195. # [09:17] <npdoty> s/CDF/christine runnegar/
  196. # [09:17] <timeless> BEF: BEJ
  197. # [09:17] <krisk> www.w3.org site is down...known issue w3c staff working on this...
  198. # [09:17] <jfmoy> s/CDM/France Telecom
  199. # [09:17] <npdoty> s/CDG/Internet Society, Privacy Interest Group, Provenance WG/
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  205. # [09:18] <timeless> Travis: Travis Leithead, Microsoft
  206. # [09:18] <timeless> chaals: so, now you've forgotten everyone's name
  207. # [09:18] <kotakagi> s/SSS/Koichi Takagi/
  208. # [09:18] <timeless> ... please say your name before speaking
  209. # [09:18] * Joins: christine (~christine@public.irc.w3.org)
  210. # [09:18] * ArtB Agenda: http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/TPAC2012Meeting#Potential_Topics
  211. # [09:18] <kotakagi> s/SST/KDDI, Japan/
  212. # [09:18] <odinho_> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  213. # [09:18] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-minutes.html odinho_
  214. # [09:19] <timeless> ... scribe has certainly forgotten your name
  215. # [09:19] * Joins: bradeeoh (~bradeeoh@public.cloak)
  216. # [09:19] <timeless> topic: Agenda Bashing
  217. # [09:19] * zcorpan is now known as SimonPieters
  218. # [09:19] * Joins: rotsuya_ (~rotsuya@public.cloak)
  219. # [09:19] <timeless> chaals: i'm going to try to break the agenda into blocks of less than an hour
  220. # [09:19] <timeless> ... so we can have short breaks of 5-10 minutes
  221. # [09:19] * npdoty W3C is aware that accessing w3.org from TPAC WiFi is not working super well
  222. # [09:19] <timeless> ... trying to talk (or scribe) for 2-3 hours is a bad idea
  223. # [09:19] <hallvord> If my introduction wasn't logged, here it is: Hallvord R. M. Steen, Opera Software, XMLHttpRequest co-editor / Clipboard Events editor
  224. # [09:19] <bryan> anyone else having issues with the W3C wiki server?
  225. # [09:20] <timeless> ... items: webidl
  226. # [09:20] <timeless> ... streams
  227. # [09:20] <timeless> ... input method
  228. # [09:20] <timeless> ... push api
  229. # [09:20] <sgodard> No access to W3C wiki server :(
  230. # [09:20] <timeless> ... indexdb
  231. # [09:20] <krisk> yes w3c.org site has issues (timesout)...staff working to resolve
  232. # [09:20] <timeless> ... web intents
  233. # [09:20] * Quits: haraken (~haraken@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 20 seconds)
  234. # [09:20] <sicking> s/indexdb/indexeddb/
  235. # [09:20] <timeless> ... will be tomorrow afternoon just before 5
  236. # [09:20] * Quits: bradeeoh (~bradeeoh@public.cloak) (bradeeoh)
  237. # [09:20] * odinho_ sicking too fast :P
  238. # [09:20] <timeless> ... web components (shadow dom, templates) is set for 3:45pm today
  239. # [09:21] <timeless> ... i'm presuming we have people dialing in for that (i.e. fixed time)
  240. # [09:21] <timeless> ... file api, 4:45pm today (again, people dialing in, fixed time slot)
  241. # [09:21] <timeless> ... does anyone have a topic that is not on that list?
  242. # [09:21] * Joins: plh (plehegar@public.cloak)
  243. # [09:21] <timeless> ... that you'd like discussed
  244. # [09:21] <timeless> bryan: i'd like to take push api today (before file), or tomorrow morning
  245. # [09:21] <timeless> ... like 3pm?
  246. # [09:21] * Quits: rotsuya (~rotsuya@public.irc.w3.org) ("Page closed")
  247. # [09:21] <timeless> chaals: objections?
  248. # [09:21] * Joins: bradeeoh (~bradeeoh@public.cloak)
  249. # [09:22] <timeless> [ done ]
  250. # [09:22] <timeless> s/done/none/
  251. # [09:22] <timeless> shepazu: webidl is a pretty long discussion
  252. # [09:22] <timeless> ... i think we should revisit it later in the day
  253. # [09:22] * Joins: waynecarr (~86868b48@public.cloak)
  254. # [09:22] <timeless> chaals: so split it into two sessions?
  255. # [09:22] <timeless> ... Travis , i think you have a guy on the hook for that
  256. # [09:22] <timeless> ArtB: plh , you should be here for that
  257. # [09:22] <timeless> ... do you have time constraints?
  258. # [09:22] * SimonPieters wonders if heycam is here
  259. # [09:22] <timeless> plh: don't put it tomorrow afternoon
  260. # [09:23] <timeless> chaals: web idl next, and then revisit after lunch
  261. # [09:23] <timeless> shepazu: i'd like to touch base w/ heycam, so tomorrow morning
  262. # [09:23] <timeless> chaals: streams, time constraints?
  263. # [09:24] <timeless> chaals: streams will be merged file api discussion this afternoon
  264. # [09:24] <timeless> chaals: IME... anytime
  265. # [09:24] * Joins: kensaku_ (~kensaku@public.cloak)
  266. # [09:24] <timeless> ... process, web idl-1, ime, indexeddb
  267. # [09:24] <timeless> ... as time allows
  268. # [09:25] * plh will be in the css room at 9:30am
  269. # [09:25] * plh will come back in webapps after
  270. # [09:25] <timeless> takuya: i'd like to push IME to this afternoon or tomorrow
  271. # [09:25] <timeless> chaals: tomorrow morning
  272. # [09:25] <timeless> ... webidl-2, ime
  273. # [09:25] <timeless> mjs: Macie, Apple
  274. # [09:25] <timeless> ... there's been discussion on the ML about File System API
  275. # [09:25] <timeless> ... either taking it off standards track
  276. # [09:25] <timeless> ... or...
  277. # [09:26] <timeless> chaals: i expect it to be part of the file api discussion
  278. # [09:26] <timeless> ... i'll toss in a topic
  279. # [09:26] <timeless> ... i think we should look at AppCache, Offline Applications, ... mess
  280. # [09:26] * Quits: shan (~shan@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 20 seconds)
  281. # [09:26] <timeless> ... html wg has AppCache in their spec
  282. # [09:26] <timeless> ... everyone hates it
  283. # [09:26] <timeless> ... either because they've implemented it
  284. # [09:26] <timeless> ... we have a proposal from Mozilla for packaging applications using JSON instead of XML
  285. # [09:27] <timeless> ... all of this deals w/ using applications offline
  286. # [09:27] <timeless> Lachy: lachlan, Opera,
  287. # [09:27] <mjs> s/Macie/Maciej/
  288. # [09:27] <npdoty> +1 on talking about all of these offline questions at once
  289. # [09:27] <timeless> ... when we do Selectors, can we cover Selectors api 2?
  290. # [09:27] <bryan> +1 to manifest discussion and appcache
  291. # [09:27] <timeless> ... we'll have a chance to repeat this process tomorrow
  292. # [09:27] <timeless> ... if you've forgotten to mention something, that's bad, but we can fix tomorrow
  293. # [09:28] <timeless> ... we have a small handful of process things
  294. # [09:28] <timeless> ... if you want to talk about how w3c process works/how it should be changed
  295. # [09:28] * ArtB is it just me that can't get browser connections to PubStatus, Agenda, etc.?
  296. # [09:28] <timeless> ... this isn't the venue
  297. # [09:28] <timeless> ... we don't care
  298. # [09:28] * timeless no, they're down -> ArtB
  299. # [09:28] <timeless> ... w3c has a CG for that
  300. # [09:28] <timeless> ... right now we work w/ the process we get
  301. # [09:28] <timeless> ... in walks anne
  302. # [09:28] <timeless> ... our goal is to get docs to REC
  303. # [09:28] <sgodard> ArtB, it's not just you
  304. # [09:29] <timeless> ... there's a handful of documents we're trying to step through that
  305. # [09:29] <timeless> ... Selectors API 1, Widget Update
  306. # [09:29] <timeless> ... there's a set of docs where we need editors
  307. # [09:29] <timeless> topic: Selectors
  308. # [09:29] <timeless> chaals: we have a specification for Selectors Level 1
  309. # [09:29] <timeless> ... we have a test suite, recently revices
  310. # [09:29] * ArtB PLH, Shepazu -> URGENT: is someone working on the net problem?
  311. # [09:29] <timeless> s/ces/sed/
  312. # [09:29] * Joins: sakih (~sakih@public.cloak)
  313. # [09:29] <timeless> ... there was a CfC to move to PR
  314. # [09:30] <timeless> ... the normal process is we say does everyone agree to move along
  315. # [09:30] <timeless> ... we prefer positive responses
  316. # [09:30] * npdoty ArtB, Team is looking into it, yes
  317. # [09:30] <timeless> ... there was only one response
  318. # [09:30] <timeless> ... did anyone want to speak?
  319. # [09:30] * Joins: aizu (~aizu@public.irc.w3.org)
  320. # [09:30] <timeless> [ No one ]
  321. # [09:30] <timeless> chaals: Lachy changed the test suite
  322. # [09:30] <timeless> ... did anyone review it?
  323. # [09:30] <timeless> Lachy: i rewrote the test suite
  324. # [09:30] * shepazu ArtB apparently it's only a problem from TPAC, not in general
  325. # [09:30] <timeless> ... the old one was full of bugs
  326. # [09:31] <timeless> ... and wasn't revealing bugs in implementations
  327. # [09:31] <timeless> ... i rewrote it, it now shows bugs
  328. # [09:31] <timeless> ... on the spec, i removed hasFeature()
  329. # [09:31] * sakih is now known as sakkuru
  330. # [09:31] * Joins: virginie_galindo (~virginie_galindo@public.irc.w3.org)
  331. # [09:31] <timeless> ... it's now irrelevant from the latest DOM spec
  332. # [09:31] <timeless> chaals: we think Selectors API level 1 is ready to go
  333. # [09:31] <timeless> ... we can declare victory as soon as we've filled in the boxes/forms/done the process
  334. # [09:31] <timeless> topic: Widget Updates
  335. # [09:32] <timeless> chaals: widget updates has sat around for a while
  336. # [09:32] * ArtB looks for RichardT?
  337. # [09:32] <timeless> ... in a PAG for a while
  338. # [09:32] <timeless> ... there are a couple of implementations
  339. # [09:32] <timeless> ... i'm curious to know if there are more implementations
  340. # [09:32] * Quits: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak) (mjs)
  341. # [09:32] <timeless> ... Opera has an implementation shipping
  342. # [09:32] <Lachy> Selectors API Testsuite: http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/selectors-api-testsuite/ (Level 1 tests need review, level 2 is a work in progress.)
  343. # [09:32] <timeless> ... with a backend
  344. # [09:32] <timeless> ... Apache has an implementation
  345. # [09:32] * Joins: heycam (~cam@public.cloak)
  346. # [09:33] * heycam hi shepazu
  347. # [09:33] <timeless> sakari: the Tizen project has implemented it
  348. # [09:33] <timeless> sebastian: we use it
  349. # [09:33] * Joins: shan (~shan@public.cloak)
  350. # [09:33] * bradeeoh is now known as bradee-oh
  351. # [09:33] * timeless npdoty i lost his name/affiliation
  352. # [09:34] <timeless> chaals: objections to moving it forward?
  353. # [09:34] <timeless> [ None ]
  354. # [09:34] * Joins: tmpsantos (~tmpsantos@public.cloak)
  355. # [09:34] * ArtB Widget Updates: http://w3.org/TR/widget-updates
  356. # [09:34] <timeless> topic: editor orphaned specifications
  357. # [09:34] <timeless> chaals: DOM4, URL Spec
  358. # [09:34] <ArtB> ACTION: Charles start the process to move Widget Updates to Candidate Recommendation
  359. # [09:34] * @trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  360. # [09:34] * RRSAgent records action 1
  361. # [09:34] <@trackbot> Created ACTION-664 - Start the process to move Widget Updates to Candidate Recommendation [on Charles McCathie Nevile - due 2012-11-05].
  362. # [09:34] <timeless> ... we're committed atm to do them
  363. # [09:34] <timeless> ... there's someone working on these things
  364. # [09:34] <timeless> ... it would be interested to know what his perspective is
  365. # [09:34] * Joins: edoyle (~erikadoyle@public.cloak)
  366. # [09:35] * Joins: spoussa (~Adium@public.cloak)
  367. # [09:35] <timeless> anne: i'm moving them forward
  368. # [09:35] <timeless> chaals: but you're not doing them in w3c
  369. # [09:35] <timeless> anne: that's correct
  370. # [09:35] <timeless> ... i'm talking with w3 shortly
  371. # [09:35] <timeless> ... about being an invited expert
  372. # [09:35] * odinho_ Might be nice to wait after the meeting then?
  373. # [09:35] <timeless> chaals: our current perspective is that we'd like an editor for DOM4
  374. # [09:36] * timeless no, getting volunteers is useful in general
  375. # [09:36] <timeless> Lachy: i might be able to be an editor for dom4
  376. # [09:36] * Joins: b310 (~b310@public.irc.w3.org)
  377. # [09:36] <timeless> chaals: url?
  378. # [09:36] <timeless> ... URL isn't a very big spec
  379. # [09:36] <timeless> ... you can copy+paste what anne does
  380. # [09:36] <timeless> ... put your name on it
  381. # [09:36] <timeless> ... become famous
  382. # [09:36] * Quits: MagnusOlsson (~MagnusOlsson@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 20 seconds)
  383. # [09:36] <timeless> ... it's really easy
  384. # [09:36] <timeless> ArtB: fame and fortune will follow
  385. # [09:36] <timeless> shepazu: guaranteed
  386. # [09:37] * Quits: dom (dom@public.cloak) ("")
  387. # [09:37] <timeless> ArtB: if you don't want to volunteer publicly, that's fine, talk to chaals or ArtB
  388. # [09:37] <timeless> chaals: Progress APIs is more or less done
  389. # [09:37] * Yoshihiro slaps aizu around a bit with a large fishbot
  390. # [09:37] <timeless> ... volunteer to do that spec
  391. # [09:37] * Joins: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak)
  392. # [09:37] <timeless> ... shepazu will thank you
  393. # [09:37] <timeless> s/APIs/Spec/
  394. # [09:37] <timeless> ... XMLHttpRequest
  395. # [09:38] <timeless> i/XML/Topic: XHR/
  396. # [09:38] * Joins: dom (dom@public.cloak)
  397. # [09:38] * Parts: heycam (~cam@public.cloak) (Leaving)
  398. # [09:38] <timeless> hallvord: we think the spec is pretty feature complete
  399. # [09:38] <timeless> ... we're trying to get overview of test coverage
  400. # [09:38] * ArtB looks for Jungkee Song; please wave
  401. # [09:38] <krisk> Microsoft submitted some more tests for XHR http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webapps/rev/be00d20f652e
  402. # [09:39] <timeless> ... and the changes anne has done to the spec
  403. # [09:39] <timeless> jaubourg: that pretty much covers it
  404. # [09:39] <timeless> chaals: are there significant changes to the spec?
  405. # [09:39] <timeless> anne: progress was ported in
  406. # [09:39] <timeless> ... it was aligned with refersrc in html
  407. # [09:40] * Quits: plh (plehegar@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  408. # [09:40] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@public.cloak)
  409. # [09:40] <odinho_> https://github.com/whatwg/xhr <- XHR spec annevk
  410. # [09:40] <timeless> s/anne:/annevk:/g
  411. # [09:40] <annevk> https://github.com/whatwg/xhr/commits AnonXMLHttpRequest -> XMLHttpRequest(anon=true)
  412. # [09:40] <annevk> 308 is now mentioned
  413. # [09:40] <timeless> s/https/-> https/
  414. # [09:40] <adrianba> q+ to ask about Stream
  415. # [09:40] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
  416. # [09:40] <timeless> s/->//
  417. # [09:40] <annevk> Encoding Standard is integrated
  418. # [09:40] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  419. # [09:40] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-minutes.html timeless
  420. # [09:40] <jgraham> https://github.com/whatwg has urla nd dom also
  421. # [09:40] <annevk> user/password are now always okay
  422. # [09:40] <timeless> hallvord: i think there's some work for mapping
  423. # [09:40] <timeless> ... and then try to ship it
  424. # [09:41] <timeless> ... the main work is test coverage/mapping implementation
  425. # [09:41] <SimonPieters> s/urla nd/url and/
  426. # [09:41] <timeless> ... and trying to ship the spec
  427. # [09:41] <timeless> annevk: there's a few more things
  428. # [09:41] <timeless> ... canceling the send/abort algorithms
  429. # [09:41] <timeless> ... needs to be rewritten to use a flag
  430. # [09:41] <timeless> ... the current way doesn't work
  431. # [09:41] <timeless> ... you always want to dispatch certain events
  432. # [09:41] * Quits: dom (dom@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  433. # [09:41] <timeless> ... it needs to be updated to use the url standard
  434. # [09:41] <timeless> ... to reference things with spaces in them
  435. # [09:42] <timeless> ... and we need to write tests for these conditions
  436. # [09:42] * Joins: MagnusOlsson (~MagnusOlsson@public.irc.w3.org)
  437. # [09:42] <timeless> chaals: should you be able to play around w/ various headers
  438. # [09:42] <timeless> ... lots of people wanted to be able to add/change the UA header
  439. # [09:42] <timeless> ... we ended up not making a chance
  440. # [09:42] <timeless> s/chance/change/
  441. # [09:42] <shan> s/Soonbo from LGE han/Soonbo Han from LGE/
  442. # [09:42] * Quits: hallvord (~hallvord@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 20 seconds)
  443. # [09:42] <timeless> hallvord: we're still trying to figure out if we'll make a decision
  444. # [09:42] <odinho_> s/KKL/Simon Pieters/
  445. # [09:42] <timeless> chaals: there are people who want to be able to change it
  446. # [09:42] <timeless> sicking: there's also the AnonXMLHttpRequest constructor
  447. # [09:43] <timeless> ... i don't think it's been implemented
  448. # [09:43] <timeless> ... we've proposed an alternate syntax
  449. # [09:43] <odinho_> q+
  450. # [09:43] * Zakim sees adrianba, odinho_ on the speaker queue
  451. # [09:43] * Joins: Norbert_ (~Norbert@public.irc.w3.org)
  452. # [09:43] <timeless> ... that also allows for http headers
  453. # [09:43] <adrianba> q?
  454. # [09:43] * Zakim sees adrianba, odinho_ on the speaker queue
  455. # [09:43] <timeless> hallvord: that's one of the things to pick annevk 's brain
  456. # [09:43] * Joins: sakkuru_ (~sakih@public.cloak)
  457. # [09:43] <timeless> ack adrianba
  458. # [09:43] <Zakim> adrianba, you wanted to ask about Stream
  459. # [09:43] * Zakim sees odinho_ on the speaker queue
  460. # [09:43] * Joins: jeff (jeff@public.cloak)
  461. # [09:43] <timeless> adrianba: annevk did some changes recently
  462. # [09:43] <timeless> ... for accessing Streams
  463. # [09:43] * Joins: hallvord_ (~hallvord@public.irc.w3.org)
  464. # [09:44] <timeless> ... we're specifically interested in
  465. # [09:44] * Quits: sakkuru (~sakih@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 20 seconds)
  466. # [09:44] <timeless> ... for the new media specs in the HTML WG
  467. # [09:44] * Joins: manyoung (~manyoung@public.irc.w3.org)
  468. # [09:44] <timeless> ... we could talk a bit more about this under stream
  469. # [09:44] <timeless> ... but we'd like to talk about that a bit more here
  470. # [09:44] * annevk teehee, Microsoft read the WHATWG copy :p
  471. # [09:44] <timeless> odinho_: Opera implements AnonXMLHttpRequest
  472. # [09:44] <timeless> ... but we have no problem changing it
  473. # [09:44] <timeless> ... we like the new proposal better
  474. # [09:44] <npdoty> q+ hallvord_
  475. # [09:44] * Zakim sees odinho_, hallvord_ on the speaker queue
  476. # [09:44] <timeless> ... so it won't be a problem
  477. # [09:44] <timeless> chaals: thanks SK telecom
  478. # [09:44] <timeless> ... who made a commitment for RF
  479. # [09:44] <npdoty> ack hallvord_
  480. # [09:45] * Zakim sees odinho_ on the speaker queue
  481. # [09:45] <timeless> hallvord_: on streams
  482. # [09:45] <timeless> ... i guess we could put that in the next version
  483. # [09:45] <timeless> ... since we want to ship this spec
  484. # [09:45] <timeless> ... no one's implemented that
  485. # [09:45] <timeless> ... so i hope it's possible to defer that
  486. # [09:45] <odinho_> ack odinho
  487. # [09:45] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  488. # [09:45] * Joins: dom (dom@public.cloak)
  489. # [09:45] <timeless> adrianba: we implemented and shipped it in ie10
  490. # [09:45] <timeless> ... with a prefix
  491. # [09:45] <timeless> ... i'm fine with deferring it
  492. # [09:45] <timeless> ... provided it's written somewhere that we can reference
  493. # [09:45] <timeless> chaals: was that you volunteering to write it?
  494. # [09:46] <timeless> adrianba: i didn't hear that
  495. # [09:46] <timeless> ... but sure
  496. # [09:46] <timeless> chaals: he agreed
  497. # [09:46] <timeless> ... xhr level 2
  498. # [09:46] * Joins: plh (plehegar@public.cloak)
  499. # [09:46] <timeless> ... the plan is to get the one we have finished
  500. # [09:46] <timeless> ... and then work on the next one
  501. # [09:46] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  502. # [09:46] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-minutes.html timeless
  503. # [09:47] <adrianba> http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/PubStatus
  504. # [09:47] <timeless> topic: Pub Status
  505. # [09:47] <timeless> ArtB: CORS
  506. # [09:47] * npdoty w3.org seems to be working better now, fyi
  507. # [09:48] <sgodard> +1 w3.org is ok now
  508. # [09:48] <timeless> ArtB: are the webappsec folks here?
  509. # [09:48] <odinho_> q+
  510. # [09:48] * Zakim sees odinho_ on the speaker queue
  511. # [09:48] <timeless> tlr: my recollection is that BradH is driving this
  512. # [09:48] <timeless> ... trying to get it ready
  513. # [09:49] <timeless> ... bradh is in the room here
  514. # [09:49] <odinho_> ack odinho
  515. # [09:49] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  516. # [09:49] <annevk> (latest commit to CORS is mine...)
  517. # [09:49] <timeless> chaals: my memory is they're LC/CR
  518. # [09:49] <annevk> (W3C CORS that is)
  519. # [09:49] <timeless> tlr: it's LC, comment period has closed
  520. # [09:49] * Joins: Wonsuk (~wonsuk73@public.cloak)
  521. # [09:49] <timeless> ... think we have an email for one issue
  522. # [09:49] <timeless> chaals: Clipboard
  523. # [09:49] <Wonsuk> Present+ Wonsuk_Lee
  524. # [09:49] <timeless> hallvord_: it's something i should get back to
  525. # [09:50] <timeless> chaals: anyone want to assist
  526. # [09:50] <timeless> hallvord_: i think the remaining issue is onbefore*
  527. # [09:50] <npdoty> webappsec is meeting Thursday/Friday, fyi
  528. # [09:50] <timeless> ... for integrating copy with native browser
  529. # [09:50] <tlr> on CORS: http://www.w3.org/mid/370C9BEB4DD6154FA963E2F79ADC6F2E2AB22A@DEN-EXDDA-S12.corp.ebay.com
  530. # [09:50] <annevk> WHATWG CORS had a few changes: https://github.com/whatwg/fetch/commits
  531. # [09:50] <timeless> ... i have a request from university of geneva
  532. # [09:50] <timeless> ... i was considering ducking it
  533. # [09:50] <timeless> ... but chromium was interesting
  534. # [09:50] <tlr> avk, do you know if Brad was tracking these?
  535. # [09:50] <annevk> to account for 308, some typos, Referer control
  536. # [09:50] <timeless> chaals: we'll use them in yandex
  537. # [09:51] <annevk> tlr: no commits have been made to the W3C copy for 4 months
  538. # [09:51] <timeless> ArtB: so we're one feature/issue from LC
  539. # [09:51] <timeless> hallvord_: sort of
  540. # [09:51] <timeless> ... one feature is missing
  541. # [09:51] <timeless> ... there's some text about security
  542. # [09:51] <tlr> what's the nature of your changes?
  543. # [09:51] <timeless> ... and cleaning up of content
  544. # [09:51] <timeless> ... which we should remove
  545. # [09:51] <timeless> ... perhaps it isn't necessary
  546. # [09:51] * Quits: spoussa (~Adium@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 20 seconds)
  547. # [09:51] <timeless> ArtB: if people want to see that spec move forward
  548. # [09:51] <timeless> ... they should submit comments
  549. # [09:51] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@public.cloak)
  550. # [09:51] <timeless> hallvord_: one issue to add, one to remove
  551. # [09:52] <timeless> chaals: if people are worried about security, look at it, scream
  552. # [09:52] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  553. # [09:52] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
  554. # [09:52] <timeless> chaals: DOM4
  555. # [09:52] <timeless> ... we're looking for an editor
  556. # [09:52] <npdoty> does someone want to chat over coffee about Clipboard and security/privacy?
  557. # [09:52] * Quits: kotakagi (~Koichi_Takagi_KDDI@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 20 seconds)
  558. # [09:52] <timeless> ... dom level 3 events
  559. # [09:52] <timeless> Travis: dom level 3 events is
  560. # [09:53] <timeless> ... has exited its second LC
  561. # [09:53] <timeless> ... 30 of September
  562. # [09:53] * Joins: jcverdie (~jcverdie@public.cloak)
  563. # [09:53] <timeless> ... there were a short number of LC comments
  564. # [09:53] <timeless> ... 7 or 8
  565. # [09:53] <timeless> ... recorded in a DoC
  566. # [09:53] * MikeSmith wow travis acquired a beard
  567. # [09:53] <timeless> ... i think the majority of those comments have been addressed
  568. # [09:53] * Joins: dgrogan_cloud (~u7844@public.cloak)
  569. # [09:53] <timeless> ... in comments or email
  570. # [09:53] * ArtB D3E comment tracking doc: http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/DOM-Level-3-Events/html/lc2_comments.txt
  571. # [09:53] <timeless> chaals: people have been asking for features
  572. # [09:53] <timeless> ... but that should be dom4
  573. # [09:53] <timeless> Travis: to continue
  574. # [09:54] * Quits: pbakaus (~pbakaus@public.irc.w3.org) ("Page closed")
  575. # [09:54] <timeless> ... i'd like to transition those to dom level 4 events
  576. # [09:54] <timeless> ... to allow the mind share to continue to progress
  577. # [09:54] <timeless> ... while we step aside and lock down dom 3 events
  578. # [09:54] * Joins: pbakaus (~u7851@public.cloak)
  579. # [09:54] <timeless> ... i'd like to propose that we organize those features into a separate document
  580. # [09:54] <timeless> ... and publish that as FPWD
  581. # [09:54] <hallvord_> event.key is still a problem child, authors trying to use it have been complaining both to me and on the mailing list
  582. # [09:54] <timeless> ... i can take an action
  583. # [09:54] <timeless> ... next step for D3E
  584. # [09:54] <timeless> ... is move to CR
  585. # [09:54] <ArtB> ACTION: Travis create an ED of DOM4 Events
  586. # [09:54] * @trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  587. # [09:54] * RRSAgent records action 2
  588. # [09:54] <@trackbot> Created ACTION-665 - Create an ED of DOM4 Events [on Travis Leithead - due 2012-11-05].
  589. # [09:55] <timeless> chaals: dom parsing and serialization
  590. # [09:55] <timeless> Travis: also me
  591. # [09:55] <ArtB> ACTION: Barstow work with Travis on a CfC for DOM3 Events Candidate
  592. # [09:55] * RRSAgent records action 3
  593. # [09:55] * @trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  594. # [09:55] <@trackbot> Created ACTION-666 - Work with Travis on a CfC for DOM3 Events Candidate [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-11-05].
  595. # [09:55] <timeless> ... i'm c+p from ms2ger
  596. # [09:55] <timeless> ... that's the status
  597. # [09:55] <hallvord_> (should I ask for the mike and comment even if I've "said" something on IRC?)
  598. # [09:55] <timeless> chaals: file stuff we'll talk about this afternoon
  599. # [09:55] <timeless> ... fullscreen
  600. # [09:55] <timeless> ... we sort of have an editor
  601. # [09:55] * MikeSmith hallvord_ sure
  602. # [09:55] <timeless> ... tantek, he's in CSS, it's a joint deliverable
  603. # [09:56] <npdoty> q/
  604. # [09:56] <npdoty> q?
  605. # [09:56] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  606. # [09:56] <timeless> ... i believe that if we bribe him, he'll produce drafts
  607. # [09:56] <timeless> ... gamepad
  608. # [09:56] <timeless> ... any editors here?
  609. # [09:56] * Joins: spoussa (~Adium@public.cloak)
  610. # [09:56] <timeless> ... html templates, indexeddb, ime,
  611. # [09:57] <timeless> ... webidl
  612. # [09:57] * Joins: kotakagi (~Koichi_Takagi_KDDI@public.cloak)
  613. # [09:57] * Joins: heycam (~cam@public.cloak)
  614. # [09:57] * MikeSmith hallvord_ sure
  615. # [09:57] * heycam says hello, but is trying to be on leave at the moment
  616. # [09:57] * heycam :)
  617. # [09:57] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  618. # [09:57] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
  619. # [09:57] * Joins: yune (~yune@public.irc.w3.org)
  620. # [09:57] <timeless> chaals: heycam, where is java bindings for webidl?
  621. # [09:57] * heycam moment
  622. # [09:57] <timeless> chaals: pointer lock, progress events
  623. # [09:57] <heycam> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/java.html
  624. # [09:58] <timeless> ... push api for later
  625. # [09:58] <timeless> ... is the quota management editor here?
  626. # [09:58] <timeless> ... server sent events?
  627. # [09:58] <odinho_> q+
  628. # [09:58] * Zakim sees odinho_ on the speaker queue
  629. # [09:58] <timeless> ArtB: server sent events LC published last week
  630. # [09:58] <heycam> I have kept the Java bindings document up to date with Web IDL, but I expect just to publish it as a note for curiosity at some point.
  631. # [09:58] <timeless> ... two more weeks of review
  632. # [09:58] <takuya> For Quota, I can follow up with its editor (Kinuko) later.
  633. # [09:58] <timeless> ... if we have no major issues raised
  634. # [09:58] <timeless> ... we can move forward
  635. # [09:58] * Joins: Jungkee (~Jungkee@public.irc.w3.org)
  636. # [09:58] <Jungkee> Present+ Jungkee_Song
  637. # [09:59] <timeless> ... we need a test facilitator
  638. # [09:59] <timeless> ... i know there are tests from opera
  639. # [09:59] <odinho_> ack odinho
  640. # [09:59] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  641. # [09:59] <timeless> ... any volunteers for facilitator?
  642. # [09:59] <timeless> ... jgraham ?
  643. # [09:59] <timeless> jgraham: maybe
  644. # [09:59] <timeless> ... we moved the tests from opera's server to github
  645. # [09:59] <hallvord_> welcome Jungkee :)
  646. # [09:59] * Quits: dnkim (~dnkim@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 20 seconds)
  647. # [09:59] <timeless> ... anyone else w/ tests for Server-sent-events, please talk to me
  648. # [09:59] <Jungkee> Hi Hallvord
  649. # [10:00] <timeless> chaals: testing is something we'll come back to in the agenda
  650. # [10:00] <Jungkee> Hi Julian
  651. # [10:00] <timeless> ... lots of work that needs to be done
  652. # [10:00] <timeless> ... it's great to contribute one test
  653. # [10:00] <timeless> ... it's amazingly helpful to be the facilitator for a spec
  654. # [10:00] <timeless> ... shadow dom is on the agenda
  655. # [10:00] * jgraham notes that test facillitator is not about *writing* tests
  656. # [10:00] <timeless> ... screen orientation
  657. # [10:00] <jaubourg> Hi Jungkee, where are you in the room ?
  658. # [10:00] <timeless> mounir: mounir, mozilla
  659. # [10:00] <ArtB> ACTION: barstow follow up with Kinuko Yasuda on status and plan for Quota Management API
  660. # [10:00] * @trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  661. # [10:00] * RRSAgent records action 4
  662. # [10:00] <@trackbot> Created ACTION-667 - Follow up with Kinuko Yasuda on status and plan for Quota Management API [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-11-05].
  663. # [10:00] <timeless> ... screen orientation in Firefox for B2G
  664. # [10:01] * odinho_ it's about bugging other people to hopefully do it :] Getting depressed and then doing it yourself :D
  665. # [10:01] <timeless> ... i heard from someone from google
  666. # [10:01] <timeless> chaals: stream api is on the agenda
  667. # [10:01] <timeless> ... url we're looking for someone
  668. # [10:01] * Jungkee Julian, you can write "/me bla bla" as private saying
  669. # [10:01] * Joins: dom_ (dom@public.cloak)
  670. # [10:01] <timeless> ... web app manifest is on the agenda
  671. # [10:01] * heycam must take his leave, will read minutes next week
  672. # [10:01] <timeless> ... web components is on the agenda
  673. # [10:01] * Parts: heycam (~cam@public.cloak) (Leaving)
  674. # [10:01] <timeless> ... webidl is on the agenda
  675. # [10:01] <timeless> ... web intents is on the agenda
  676. # [10:01] * jaubourg sorry, still a newb in here
  677. # [10:01] <timeless> ... web messaging
  678. # [10:01] * Quits: dom (dom@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  679. # [10:02] * dom_ is now known as dom
  680. # [10:02] * Joins: glenn (~gadams@public.cloak)
  681. # [10:02] <timeless> krisk: there's a good number of tests
  682. # [10:02] <timeless> ... if we move them from web workers to web messaging
  683. # [10:02] <timeless> ... it could be sufficient to be complete
  684. # [10:02] <timeless> chaals: web sockets
  685. # [10:02] <timeless> ArtB: CR was published last month
  686. # [10:02] <timeless> ... question of interop for exit criteria
  687. # [10:02] <jgraham> server sent events tests - https://github.com/w3c/event-source
  688. # [10:02] <timeless> krisk: last F2F we talked about arraybufferview and replacement character
  689. # [10:03] <timeless> ... ie10 implements that
  690. # [10:03] <timeless> ... we also talked about constructors
  691. # [10:03] <timeless> ... all 3 are issues
  692. # [10:03] <sicking> s/talked about constructors/talked about event constructors/
  693. # [10:03] <timeless> ... i sent an email about the test server
  694. # [10:03] <timeless> ... there's an issue w/ getting the server working for the tests
  695. # [10:04] <timeless> ArtB: there's a request for review of the test suite
  696. # [10:04] <odinho_> s/Hi Jungkee, where are you in the room ?//
  697. # [10:04] <timeless> ... no comments on the test suite implies that the test suite is sufficient
  698. # [10:04] <odinho_> RRSAgent: make minutes
  699. # [10:04] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-minutes.html odinho_
  700. # [10:04] <timeless> ... so we wait for implementations to catch up
  701. # [10:04] <timeless> chaals: who has impls?
  702. # [10:04] <timeless> ... opera does?
  703. # [10:04] <mounir> s/screen orientation in Firefox for B2G/screen orientation in Firefox for Android and B2G
  704. # [10:05] <timeless> SimonPieters: opera has it
  705. # [10:05] <timeless> sicking: i think we implement the spec
  706. # [10:05] <timeless> ... i think we do replacement character
  707. # [10:05] <timeless> ... and arraybufferviews
  708. # [10:05] <timeless> ... i'm fairly sure we do event constructors now
  709. # [10:05] <timeless> chaals: sounds like it's being implemented
  710. # [10:05] <timeless> ... just a small matter of getting it cooked
  711. # [10:05] <timeless> ... web storage?
  712. # [10:06] <timeless> ArtB: it's been around for a year now
  713. # [10:06] <timeless> ... waiting for imeplementations to catch up
  714. # [10:06] <timeless> s/ime/im/
  715. # [10:06] * Quits: b310 (~b310@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 20 seconds)
  716. # [10:07] <timeless> ... i need to contact Jong-Heun Lee
  717. # [10:07] <timeless> chaals: web workers?
  718. # [10:07] <timeless> ArtB: published in may
  719. # [10:07] <timeless> ... for shared workers, i think we're lacking impls
  720. # [10:07] <timeless> SimonPieters: there are tests
  721. # [10:07] <timeless> ... the opera submitted tests aren't all testharness.js
  722. # [10:07] <timeless> ... i'm not sure about pass rate on different browsers
  723. # [10:07] <timeless> ... test suite still needs more work
  724. # [10:07] <timeless> chaals: any big issues?
  725. # [10:08] <timeless> sicking: i'm pretty sure there are pretty big features not implemented by anyone
  726. # [10:08] <timeless> ... we don't implement shared workers
  727. # [10:08] <timeless> ... i don't know if anyone implements workers in workers
  728. # [10:08] <timeless> annevk: i think opera does workers in workers
  729. # [10:08] <timeless> Travis: IE10 has workers
  730. # [10:08] <annevk> Opera did it first!
  731. # [10:08] <timeless> ... we don't support shared workers in any form
  732. # [10:08] <timeless> ... with the possible exception of automatic GC
  733. # [10:09] <timeless> chaals: so outstanding work to be done
  734. # [10:09] <timeless> ArtB: is it small
  735. # [10:09] <timeless> ... should we split the spec?
  736. # [10:09] <timeless> chaals: does anyone suggest we should split the spec?
  737. # [10:09] <timeless> Travis: i'd like to entertain the idea of splitting out shared workers
  738. # [10:09] <timeless> ... as a separate spec
  739. # [10:09] <timeless> ... wanting to gauge support for that idea in the group
  740. # [10:10] <timeless> ... seems like a good idea to move workers forward since everyone has it
  741. # [10:10] <timeless> chaals: we entertain spec editors
  742. # [10:10] <timeless> SimonPieters: i think we shouldn't split the spec
  743. # [10:10] <timeless> ... no one is not planning to implement
  744. # [10:10] <MikeSmith> q?
  745. # [10:10] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  746. # [10:10] <timeless> pbakaus: i have a question on this
  747. # [10:10] <timeless> ... i had recent discussions on new features
  748. # [10:10] <ArtB> ACTION: barstow work with Jong-Heun Lee to start a RfR Web Storage test suite
  749. # [10:11] * @trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  750. # [10:11] * RRSAgent records action 5
  751. # [10:11] <@trackbot> Created ACTION-668 - Work with Jong-Heun Lee to start a RfR Web Storage test suite [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-11-05].
  752. # [10:11] <timeless> ... i wonder where we put them
  753. # [10:11] <timeless> ... do we put them in a new spec?
  754. # [10:11] * MikeSmith to ArtB & chaals I think jonas had his hand up to be on the queue
  755. # [10:11] <timeless> chaals: anyone know Hixie 's view?
  756. # [10:11] * Joins: JonathanJ1 (~hollobit@public.cloak)
  757. # [10:11] <timeless> jgraham: Hixie will just put it in the WhatWG spec
  758. # [10:11] <timeless> ... he won't split it out
  759. # [10:11] <timeless> ... whether it makes sense depends on the feature
  760. # [10:11] <timeless> ... if it ties in and affects semantics
  761. # [10:12] <timeless> ... it might be hard to put it into a separate document
  762. # [10:12] <npdoty> q+ sicking
  763. # [10:12] * Zakim sees sicking on the speaker queue
  764. # [10:12] <timeless> ... without lots of hooks and making it fragile
  765. # [10:12] <npdoty> ack sicking
  766. # [10:12] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  767. # [10:12] <timeless> sicking: one feature is sync message channels
  768. # [10:12] <timeless> ... which ties in pretty deeply
  769. # [10:12] <timeless> pbakaus: we discussed canvas
  770. # [10:12] <timeless> chaals: i don't see this as support for splitting it out
  771. # [10:12] <timeless> ... ArtB does the process pushes
  772. # [10:13] * Joins: jet (~jet@public.cloak)
  773. # [10:13] <timeless> ... you're welcome to volunteer
  774. # [10:13] <timeless> ... but at some point we'll be skeptical about you volunteering for more work
  775. # [10:13] <timeless> ... if we take what we have through the process
  776. # [10:13] <timeless> ... we expect another version in the future
  777. # [10:14] <takuya> Re; WebSocket support, Chrome has also supported it for long time but arraybufferview and replacement character haven't been implemented yet.
  778. # [10:14] <timeless> chaals: we have widgets for tomorrow
  779. # [10:14] <timeless> ... time for a 10 minute break
  780. # [10:14] <timeless> [ Break ]
  781. # [10:14] <timeless> topic: Web IDL
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  796. # [10:16] <takuya> Correction regarding websocket support in chromium, we have already implemented both (arraybufferview and replacement character). sorry about it.
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  826. # [10:28] * abarsto is now known as ArtB
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  831. # [10:29] <timeless> chaals: half the people asked about webidl now asked for it to be postponed
  832. # [10:29] <jgraham>
  833. # [10:29] <timeless> toppic: Streams
  834. # [10:29] <timeless> s/toppic/topic/
  835. # [10:30] * Joins: KenjiBX (~KenjiBX@public.irc.w3.org)
  836. # [10:30] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@public.cloak) (sicking)
  837. # [10:30] <adrianba> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/streams-api/raw-file/tip/Overview.htm
  838. # [10:30] <timeless> adrianba: we updated the streams spec last week
  839. # [10:30] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@public.cloak)
  840. # [10:30] * Quits: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak) (mjs)
  841. # [10:30] <timeless> ... it's a pretty simple spec
  842. # [10:30] * Quits: jcverdie (~jcverdie@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  843. # [10:30] <timeless> ... we made some changes to align it with changes in the fileapi
  844. # [10:30] * Quits: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  845. # [10:30] <timeless> ... the stream object maps fairly closely to the Blob object in fileapi
  846. # [10:30] * Joins: jaubourg (~jaubourg@public.irc.w3.org)
  847. # [10:31] <timeless> ... stream has a way to keep reading data until you get to the end of the stream
  848. # [10:31] * Joins: hallvord (~hallvord@public.irc.w3.org)
  849. # [10:31] <timeless> ... there's a streamreader that maps fairly closely to filereader
  850. # [10:31] <timeless> ... there's a streambuilder which is fairly close to what we used to have with blobbuilder
  851. # [10:31] <sicking> q
  852. # [10:31] <timeless> ... it doesn't make sense to move to the constructor form
  853. # [10:31] <timeless> ... so it's still there
  854. # [10:31] <timeless> s/q//
  855. # [10:31] * Joins: aizu (~aizu@public.irc.w3.org)
  856. # [10:31] <timeless> sicking: can you read from a stream multiple times or just once?
  857. # [10:32] <timeless> adrianba: you can only read the data once
  858. # [10:32] <timeless> ... the stream reader methods have a construct to say the maximum amount of data you want to read
  859. # [10:32] <timeless> ... so you can avoid reading to the end
  860. # [10:32] <timeless> ... you could read into a blob
  861. # [10:32] <timeless> chaals: so i could read from a stream into a blob
  862. # [10:32] <timeless> ... and then read from the blob multiple times
  863. # [10:32] <timeless> adrianba: or into a string
  864. # [10:33] <timeless> sicking: is there a way to get a stream that represents the content of a url?
  865. # [10:33] <timeless> adrianba: part of the proposal in the stream spec
  866. # [10:33] <timeless> ... which i think i've now volunteered to write into a different spec
  867. # [10:33] <timeless> ... in ready-state-3
  868. # [10:33] <timeless> ... if you set the response type to stream
  869. # [10:33] <timeless> ... then you can put it into a stream object
  870. # [10:33] <timeless> ... and essentially read off the wire from xhr
  871. # [10:33] <timeless> ... and at the end the xhr moves to ready-state-4
  872. # [10:34] <timeless> sicking: is there the concept of a stream failing?
  873. # [10:34] <timeless> ... if the server fails instead of ending
  874. # [10:34] <timeless> adrianba: if you call a read method
  875. # [10:34] <timeless> ... and the read is ending because of an io error
  876. # [10:34] <timeless> ... then the method throws an error
  877. # [10:34] <timeless> ... the same sort of error construct as in file reader
  878. # [10:34] <timeless> q?
  879. # [10:34] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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  881. # [10:34] <timeless> q+ to ask if you still get those last bytes before the exception
  882. # [10:34] * Zakim sees timeless on the speaker queue
  883. # [10:35] <timeless> adrianba: we have the stream builder and the stream reader from xhr
  884. # [10:35] <SimonPieters> q+ SimonPieters
  885. # [10:35] * Zakim sees timeless, SimonPieters on the speaker queue
  886. # [10:35] <timeless> ... we have discussions in html wg for media source extension spec
  887. # [10:35] <timeless> ... we'd like to use the stream object from xhr
  888. # [10:35] <timeless> ... to hand off data from media to the rendering pipeline
  889. # [10:35] <timeless> ... we the Media Group
  890. # [10:35] <timeless> sicking: how does that work if you can only read from a stream once
  891. # [10:36] * Quits: Norbert_ (~Norbert@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 20 seconds)
  892. # [10:36] <timeless> ... given that a media might want to rewind
  893. # [10:36] * Quits: bryan (~bryan@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 20 seconds)
  894. # [10:36] <timeless> adrianba: this is for media stream
  895. # [10:36] <timeless> ... where you can append to a buffer
  896. # [10:36] <timeless> ... the media stream is then responsible for managing that buffer
  897. # [10:36] <timeless> ... we want to avoid having to read all the way to the end into an array buffer
  898. # [10:36] <timeless> ... and then copy it into the media element buffer
  899. # [10:36] * Quits: MagnusOlsson (~MagnusOlsson@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 20 seconds)
  900. # [10:36] <timeless> ... this avoids copying into another buffer
  901. # [10:36] <timeless> ack me
  902. # [10:36] <Zakim> timeless, you wanted to ask if you still get those last bytes before the exception
  903. # [10:37] * Zakim sees SimonPieters on the speaker queue
  904. # [10:37] <sicking> q+
  905. # [10:37] * Zakim sees SimonPieters, sicking on the speaker queue
  906. # [10:37] * Quits: JonathanJ1 (~hollobit@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 20 seconds)
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  908. # [10:37] <timeless> adrianba: you can read the data during progress events
  909. # [10:37] <timeless> ... and then get the error later
  910. # [10:37] <timeless> ... as with progress events/file
  911. # [10:37] <timeless> SimonPieters: with file we dropped blob builder
  912. # [10:38] <timeless> ... is there a plan to do the same thing with stream?
  913. # [10:38] <timeless> adrianba: no, with blob you have all the data available at the time it's created
  914. # [10:38] <timeless> ... the blob is immutable
  915. # [10:38] <timeless> ... for stream, the stream builder lets you create an instance of a stream
  916. # [10:38] <timeless> ... but still have a reference to the builder
  917. # [10:38] <timeless> ... to feed in more data
  918. # [10:38] <timeless> ... to append to the stream
  919. # [10:38] <timeless> ... maybe sending with xhr, or consuming from some place else
  920. # [10:39] <timeless> SimonPieters: wouldn't it make sense to just have an append() method on the stream?
  921. # [10:39] <timeless> adrianba: this allows for producer-consumer in different places
  922. # [10:39] <timeless> ... workers
  923. # [10:39] <timeless> ... so you can transfer the object
  924. # [10:39] <timeless> ... i'm open to discussion
  925. # [10:39] <timeless> ... we haven't built builder yet
  926. # [10:39] <timeless> SimonPieters: discuss on bug/ML
  927. # [10:39] <timeless> q?
  928. # [10:39] * Zakim sees SimonPieters, sicking on the speaker queue
  929. # [10:39] <timeless> ack sicking
  930. # [10:39] * Zakim sees SimonPieters on the speaker queue
  931. # [10:39] <timeless> ack SimonPieters
  932. # [10:39] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  933. # [10:40] * Joins: rubylin (~rubylin@public.cloak)
  934. # [10:40] <timeless> sicking: if you want to stream from URL to <Media>
  935. # [10:40] <timeless> ... you need to be able to Fast Forward
  936. # [10:40] * Joins: tomoyuki (~tshimizu3@public.cloak)
  937. # [10:40] <timeless> ... without wanting to read all the data in the interim
  938. # [10:40] <timeless> ... and you want to be able to rewind
  939. # [10:40] <timeless> ... you want to be able to jump arbitrarily
  940. # [10:40] <timeless> adrianba: the intent is to hook it up to the media source extension
  941. # [10:40] * Joins: yune (~yune@public.irc.w3.org)
  942. # [10:40] <timeless> ... which lets you programatically compose the buffer
  943. # [10:40] * Joins: MagnusOlsson (~MagnusOlsson@public.irc.w3.org)
  944. # [10:41] <timeless> ... for adaptive streaming
  945. # [10:41] <timeless> ... you'd have a manifest file
  946. # [10:41] * Joins: dom (dom@public.cloak)
  947. # [10:41] <timeless> ... pointing to different segments at different bitrates
  948. # [10:41] * odinho_ In one sentenced: seeking/buffering is handled by your app (javascript).
  949. # [10:41] <timeless> ... i compose an xhr for one segment
  950. # [10:41] <timeless> ... and choose a different bitrate for another segment
  951. # [10:41] * Joins: shh (~shh@public.cloak)
  952. # [10:42] <timeless> ... the buffer in the media element holds the segments you append/insert
  953. # [10:42] <timeless> ... the buffer can drop parts
  954. # [10:42] <timeless> ... the media element with the extension will tell you if you need the data
  955. # [10:42] <timeless> chaals: so you could rewind to a segment you've been to
  956. # [10:42] <timeless> ... and you could choose to pull in a different quality (higher) for the segment
  957. # [10:42] * Joins: jwu4 (~5bd9a8dc@public.cloak)
  958. # [10:43] <timeless> sicking: i think my question is more on media stream
  959. # [10:43] <timeless> chaals: how long will it take for you to build this? will this be in ie11/ie12?
  960. # [10:43] <timeless> adrianba: we built a large part of this already
  961. # [10:43] <timeless> ... we're looking for feedback... as SimonPieters mentioned
  962. # [10:43] <timeless> ... is this the right model
  963. # [10:43] <timeless> ... are there more changes in the file api
  964. # [10:43] <timeless> ... that we'd need to reflect here?
  965. # [10:43] <timeless> ... we feel read part is more useful than builder
  966. # [10:44] <timeless> ... which is why we did that
  967. # [10:44] <timeless> chaals: do you have someone doing the builder part?
  968. # [10:45] * Joins: czhang2 (~5bd9a8dc@public.cloak)
  969. # [10:45] <timeless> adrianba: you can get a stream from xhr
  970. # [10:45] <timeless> chaals: is anyone doing builder side?
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  972. # [10:45] <timeless> ... break for 30 minutes
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  974. # [10:46] <timeless> [ break ]
  975. # [10:46] <timeless> topic: Web IDL
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  979. # [10:47] <chaals> Agenda planning for the rest of the day:
  980. # [10:47] <chaals> + Web IDL
  981. # [10:47] <chaals> (11.15 − 12.15)
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  1004. # [11:02] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
  1005. # [11:02] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
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  1014. # [11:08] <ArtB> Present+ Charles_McCathie_Nevile, Travis_Leithead, Jonas_Sicking, Olli_Pettay, Simon_Pieters, Maciej_Stachowiak, Lachlan_Hunt, Hallvord_Steen, Kenji_Baheux, Bo_Hu, Bo_Chen, Arnaud_Braud, Doug_Schepers, Eduardo_Fullea, Kris_Krueger, Lars_Erik_Bolstad
  1015. # [11:08] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
  1016. # [11:08] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
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  1019. # [11:11] <ArtB> Present+ Magnus_Olsson, Mike_Smith, Mounir_Lamouri, Paul_Bakaus, Philippe_Le_Hégaret, Rafael_Weinstein, Sakari_Poussa, Virginie_GALINDO, Wayne_Carr, Yuan_Ji
  1020. # [11:11] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
  1021. # [11:11] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
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  1024. # [11:14] <ArtB> Present+ Erika_Doyle_Navara, Christine_Runnegar, Thomas_Roessler, Paul_Cotton, Steve_Holbrook, Anne_van_Kesteren
  1025. # [11:16] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  1026. # [11:16] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-minutes.html timeless
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  1038. # [11:20] <Arno> present+ Arnaud_Braud
  1039. # [11:20] * Joins: a12u (~androirc@public.cloak)
  1040. # [11:20] <timeless> Travis: webidl overview... and then testing
  1041. # [11:20] <timeless> ... there's a v1 spec
  1042. # [11:20] <timeless> ... which heycam forked off earlier this year
  1043. # [11:20] <timeless> ... he's currently working on v2 of webidl
  1044. # [11:20] <timeless> ... where new proposals, iterators, serializers have been placed
  1045. # [11:20] * ArtB notes: ED for WebIDL http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/
  1046. # [11:20] <Norbert> present+ Norbert_Lindenberg
  1047. # [11:21] <timeless> ... in the interest of finishing v1, he did that split
  1048. # [11:21] * Quits: a12u (~androirc@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  1049. # [11:21] <spoussa> present +Sakari_Poussa
  1050. # [11:21] * ArtB notes CR for WebIDL: http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/CR-WebIDL-20120419/
  1051. # [11:21] <timeless> s/present +/present+ /
  1052. # [11:21] * ArtB notes WebIDL test plan: http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/WebIDLTest.htm
  1053. # [11:21] <timeless> Travis: there are a number of specs with normative references to webidl
  1054. # [11:21] * Joins: a12u (~androirc@public.cloak)
  1055. # [11:22] <timeless> ... and they'll get stuck at CR until v1 moves to REC
  1056. # [11:22] <timeless> ... there are two approaches
  1057. # [11:22] <timeless> ... we create a test suite for the web idl specification
  1058. # [11:22] * Quits: Arno (~Arnaud@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 20 seconds)
  1059. # [11:22] <timeless> ... that tests every normative feature in the specification
  1060. # [11:22] <timeless> ... by searching across specifications to find occurrences of those features
  1061. # [11:22] <timeless> ... to test those features specifically
  1062. # [11:23] <timeless> ... for interface object testing, we'd select a couple of those snippets
  1063. # [11:23] <timeless> ... test to see if they're present
  1064. # [11:23] <timeless> ... not testing the syntax of webidl
  1065. # [11:23] <timeless> ... testing the binding
  1066. # [11:23] <spoussa> present+ Sakari_Poussa
  1067. # [11:23] <odinho_> q+ to ask about [TreatUndefinedAs=Missing]
  1068. # [11:23] * Zakim sees odinho_ on the speaker queue
  1069. # [11:24] <timeless> ... so if you're building a browser that supports webidl
  1070. # [11:24] * Joins: virginie_galindo (~virginie_galindo@public.irc.w3.org)
  1071. # [11:24] <timeless> ... you'd have to implement those things
  1072. # [11:24] * Joins: rotsuya (~rotsuya@public.cloak)
  1073. # [11:24] <timeless> ... it's a bit dicey, since the test suite builders have to pick interface sections that everyone would implement
  1074. # [11:24] * Joins: kensaku (~kensaku@public.cloak)
  1075. # [11:24] * Joins: Arno (~Arnaud@public.cloak)
  1076. # [11:24] <timeless> ... the second approach
  1077. # [11:24] <timeless> ... would be to create a meta test suite
  1078. # [11:24] * Joins: divya (~Adium@public.cloak)
  1079. # [11:24] <timeless> ... "how to test your specification test suite"
  1080. # [11:24] <timeless> ... two examples
  1081. # [11:24] <timeless> ... the selectors api spec
  1082. # [11:25] * Joins: jwu4 (~5bd9a8dc@public.cloak)
  1083. # [11:25] <timeless> ... the web navigation timing spec (in the web perf wg)
  1084. # [11:25] * Joins: sakkuru (~sakih@public.cloak)
  1085. # [11:25] <timeless> ... both of those specifications reference webidl normatively
  1086. # [11:25] <timeless> ... and they'd like to go to REC
  1087. # [11:25] <timeless> ... if i'm building a test suite for navigation timing
  1088. # [11:25] <timeless> ... what do i test?
  1089. # [11:25] <timeless> ack odinho_
  1090. # [11:25] <Zakim> odinho_, you wanted to ask about [TreatUndefinedAs=Missing]
  1091. # [11:25] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1092. # [11:25] <timeless> odinho_: we can talk about that later
  1093. # [11:26] <timeless> Travis: i think there's a slot for that in v2
  1094. # [11:26] <timeless> chaals: this discussion is about stabilizing/publishing v2
  1095. # [11:26] * Joins: hsivonen (~hsivonen@public.cloak)
  1096. # [11:26] <timeless> mjs: is there at least one spec identified for every feature of webidl
  1097. # [11:26] * Joins: edoyle (~erikadoyle@public.cloak)
  1098. # [11:26] <timeless> ... that is likely to be widely implemented
  1099. # [11:26] <timeless> ... and a good example of that feature
  1100. # [11:26] <timeless> Travis: good question
  1101. # [11:26] <timeless> ... there's a type called Byte
  1102. # [11:27] <timeless> ... prior to yesterday, i wasn't aware of any spec using it
  1103. # [11:27] <timeless> ... i found one yesterday, khronos's Typed Array spec
  1104. # [11:27] <timeless> ... i believe there's an instance of each feature
  1105. # [11:27] <timeless> ... but not necessarily all combinations
  1106. # [11:27] <timeless> ... clamp(...various types...)
  1107. # [11:27] * virginie_galindo thanks for reminding which company you are representing when speaking :)
  1108. # [11:27] <timeless> mjs: is there a list of specifications to use for targeting
  1109. # [11:28] * Joins: paul-huawei (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
  1110. # [11:28] <timeless> Travis: i've created a webidl test
  1111. # [11:28] <shepazu> there is also this page, for some references http://www.w3.org/wiki/Web_IDL
  1112. # [11:28] <timeless> ... that's loading web idl assertions in iframes
  1113. # [11:28] <timeless> ... there's no summary of "these are the specs i'm taking from"
  1114. # [11:28] <timeless> ... but they're implicit
  1115. # [11:29] <timeless> jgraham: i don't know how relevant it is to testing webidl itself
  1116. # [11:29] <timeless> ... there's IDLHarness.js
  1117. # [11:29] <timeless> ... in the resources repository
  1118. # [11:29] <timeless> ... in dvcs
  1119. # [11:29] <chaals> q?
  1120. # [11:29] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1121. # [11:29] <timeless> ... it might be helpful
  1122. # [11:29] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@public.cloak)
  1123. # [11:30] <timeless> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/resources/file/tip/idlharness.js
  1124. # [11:30] <timeless> jgraham: it will try to test the implications of webidl
  1125. # [11:30] * odinho_ it's a bit hard though, because it doesn't have a mode for only having useful tests
  1126. # [11:30] <timeless> plh: last i tried, it failed on the window object
  1127. # [11:30] <timeless> SimonPieters: i think there changes to webidl
  1128. # [11:30] * Joins: Wonsuk (~wonsuk73@public.cloak)
  1129. # [11:31] <timeless> ... AryehGregor wrote it
  1130. # [11:31] * Joins: shh (~shh@public.cloak)
  1131. # [11:31] <timeless> jgraham: I think AryehGregor plans to work on it
  1132. # [11:31] <krisk> Here is a test that consumes this idlharness.js
  1133. # [11:31] <krisk> http://www.w3c-test.org/html/tests/submission/AryehGregor/interfaces.html
  1134. # [11:31] <timeless> jgraham: it uses head grabber that darobin wrote
  1135. # [11:32] <timeless> ... if things don't match that, it'll fail
  1136. # [11:32] <timeless> ... i think that's out of date and needs to be updated
  1137. # [11:33] <timeless> Travis: assuming that worked
  1138. # [11:33] <timeless> present+ Robin_Berjon
  1139. # [11:33] <timeless> chaals: say we identify "this piece is used in Selectors API"
  1140. # [11:33] <timeless> ... using this tool to check whether this works
  1141. # [11:34] <chaals> ?
  1142. # [11:34] <chaals> q?
  1143. # [11:34] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1144. # [11:34] * Joins: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak)
  1145. # [11:35] <chaals> MJS: Seems like there are 3 testing issues:
  1146. # [11:35] <Travis> q?
  1147. # [11:35] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1148. # [11:35] <chaals> … the combination of IDL and a particular spec, plus what IDL says, implies requirements on that spec.
  1149. # [11:35] <chaals> … eg notification has IDL snippets and that implies requirements for the behaviour of those interefaces.
  1150. # [11:36] <chaals> … Maybe every spec using IDL should include tests for the parts of WebIDL used in the given spec.
  1151. # [11:36] <chaals> … But also, IDL needs to be tested itself. It has requirements on other specifications, but it is hard to make a test suite that tests specs.
  1152. # [11:37] <chaals> … But we could do a grammar-level check, and say that satisfies spec confromance. But tehre are also requirements that cascade down to user agents, and the question is how totest those for WebIDL?
  1153. # [11:37] <chaals> … So let's find specs that show examples of each item, and test them. This harnes could help us do that.
  1154. # [11:37] * Quits: plh (plehegar@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  1155. # [11:37] <chaals> … We satisfy the larger set of test suites, and those results let us confirm that WebIDL itself works.
  1156. # [11:38] <chaals> … If we trust the harness we can use it to automate.
  1157. # [11:38] <chaals> … the process.
  1158. # [11:38] * Joins: tokamoto_ (~tokamoto@public.cloak)
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  1160. # [11:38] <chaals> CMN: +!
  1161. # [11:38] <chaals> s/!/1/
  1162. # [11:39] <chaals> Travis: We could make the test harness into the testing deliverable, and agrees that is sufficient.
  1163. # [11:39] <chaals> MJS: Interesting because that would let you test combinations. SUper useful but not sure it fulfils the testing requirement if the harness hasn't actually been used to do the testing yet.
  1164. # [11:39] * Quits: kotakagi (~Koichi_Takagi_KDDI@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 20 seconds)
  1165. # [11:40] <chaals> TL: How do we test the harness.
  1166. # [11:40] * darobin FWIW I'm close to releasing an early version of a new revision of my JS WebIDL parser that could be used for this: https://github.com/darobin/webidl2.js/tree/develop
  1167. # [11:41] * odinho_ darobin It was brought up before you came in. Along with IDLharness.
  1168. # [11:42] * darobin odinho_, thanks, I sort of figured out it would have been, though I doubt anyone knew where the new code was :)
  1169. # [11:42] * odinho_ darobin You are very correct indeed
  1170. # [11:42] <chaals> CMN: Don't think we can get away with just the harness. Wwe need to run it, as Maciej said, but that doesn't seem to be the hard part. Agreeing on the harness seems OK.
  1171. # [11:42] <SimonPieters> q+ SimonPieters
  1172. # [11:42] * Zakim sees SimonPieters on the speaker queue
  1173. # [11:43] <chaals> TL: If I edit a spec and test suite fails on WebIDL, is that a problem?
  1174. # [11:43] <chaals> q+
  1175. # [11:43] * Zakim sees SimonPieters, chaals on the speaker queue
  1176. # [11:43] <chaals> JG: We should be allowed to say a test is failing for a reason other than the actual test itself.
  1177. # [11:43] * Joins: Shinji (shinji@public.cloak)
  1178. # [11:43] <timeless> q?
  1179. # [11:43] * Zakim sees SimonPieters, chaals on the speaker queue
  1180. # [11:43] <mjs> q+
  1181. # [11:43] * Zakim sees SimonPieters, chaals, mjs on the speaker queue
  1182. # [11:44] * Joins: kotakagi (~Koichi_Takagi_KDDI@public.cloak)
  1183. # [11:44] <timeless> chaals: our obligation is to prove that this is implementable and workable
  1184. # [11:44] <timeless> ... we can prove that
  1185. # [11:44] * Joins: kotakagi2 (~kotakagi@public.cloak)
  1186. # [11:44] <timeless> ... we want to avoid the situation where we say "this is fine, it'll work some time in the future"
  1187. # [11:44] * Joins: plh (plehegar@public.cloak)
  1188. # [11:44] <timeless> ... it's like saying "we'll fail the selectors api because someone has a bug in target()"
  1189. # [11:44] <plh> --> http://w3c-test.org/webperf/tests/submission/W3C/NavigationTiming/test_interface.html
  1190. # [11:44] <plh> q+
  1191. # [11:44] * Zakim sees SimonPieters, chaals, mjs, plh on the speaker queue
  1192. # [11:45] <timeless> ... i certainly expect to do that
  1193. # [11:45] <Lachy> s/target()/:target pseudo-class/
  1194. # [11:45] <MikeSmith> q?
  1195. # [11:45] * Zakim sees SimonPieters, chaals, mjs, plh on the speaker queue
  1196. # [11:45] * darobin shepazu: you can queue yourself :)
  1197. # [11:45] <timeless> ack SimonPieters
  1198. # [11:45] * Zakim sees chaals, mjs, plh on the speaker queue
  1199. # [11:45] <chaals> … waiting to fix all corner cases is broken, and we can be more grown-up
  1200. # [11:45] <ArtB> q+ take a quick look at the WebIDL CR Exit Criteria http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/CR-WebIDL-20120419/#cr-exit
  1201. # [11:45] * Zakim ArtB, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
  1202. # [11:45] <timeless> SimonPieters: having reference to non-REC
  1203. # [11:45] <timeless> ... it doesn't block moving to REC
  1204. # [11:45] <chaals> CMN: Right. We're not going to hang up on tests that fail for some non-relevant reason.
  1205. # [11:45] <timeless> ... you just have to inform that directory
  1206. # [11:45] <timeless> s/y//
  1207. # [11:46] <timeless> ... it doesn't necessarily block you
  1208. # [11:46] * chaals hands scribing back to timeless
  1209. # [11:46] <timeless> q- chaals
  1210. # [11:46] * Zakim sees mjs, plh on the speaker queue
  1211. # [11:46] * Quits: jwu4 (~5bd9a8dc@public.cloak) ("CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)")
  1212. # [11:46] <chaals> ack me
  1213. # [11:46] * Zakim sees mjs, plh on the speaker queue
  1214. # [11:46] <timeless> ack MikeSmith
  1215. # [11:46] * Zakim sees mjs, plh on the speaker queue
  1216. # [11:46] <timeless> ack mjs
  1217. # [11:46] * Zakim sees plh on the speaker queue
  1218. # [11:46] * Joins: bryan (~bryan@public.irc.w3.org)
  1219. # [11:46] <timeless> mjs: w3c process does require that you state your CR exit criteria
  1220. # [11:47] <timeless> ... it doesn't require "two implementations will pass in the test suite"
  1221. # [11:47] * Joins: hiro (hiro@public.cloak)
  1222. # [11:47] <ArtB> q+ to review the CR exit criteria for Web IDL http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/CR-WebIDL-20120419/#cr-exit
  1223. # [11:47] * Zakim sees plh, ArtB on the speaker queue
  1224. # [11:47] <timeless> ... a spec could state "as long as webidl issues are identified, we won't block on them"
  1225. # [11:47] <shepazu> +1 to mjs
  1226. # [11:48] <timeless> ... CR exit criteria saying "we must have fixes for every single observed issue" isn't a good idea
  1227. # [11:48] <timeless> plh: i did this exercise with web performance navigation timing
  1228. # [11:48] <odinho_> q+
  1229. # [11:48] * Zakim sees plh, ArtB, odinho_ on the speaker queue
  1230. # [11:49] <timeless> plh: I did this exercise
  1231. # [11:49] <ArtB> q-
  1232. # [11:49] * Zakim sees plh, odinho_ on the speaker queue
  1233. # [11:49] <chaals> q?
  1234. # [11:49] * Zakim sees plh, odinho_ on the speaker queue
  1235. # [11:49] <MikeSmith> ack plh
  1236. # [11:49] * Zakim sees odinho_ on the speaker queue
  1237. # [11:49] <chaals> ack pl
  1238. # [11:49] * Zakim sees odinho_ on the speaker queue
  1239. # [11:49] <chaals> ack od
  1240. # [11:49] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1241. # [11:49] <timeless> ... And every single thing had issues
  1242. # [11:50] <mjs> q+
  1243. # [11:50] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
  1244. # [11:50] <timeless> Odinho: I did testing and stopped there was too much red
  1245. # [11:50] * Quits: jaubourg (~jaubourg@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 20 seconds)
  1246. # [11:50] <timeless> ... There was no prioritization
  1247. # [11:50] <timeless> ... Throwing is important
  1248. # [11:50] <timeless> ... Some things are less
  1249. # [11:51] <timeless> ... Prototype chain
  1250. # [11:51] <jgraham> q+
  1251. # [11:51] * Zakim sees mjs, jgraham on the speaker queue
  1252. # [11:52] * Quits: kotakagi2 (~kotakagi@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  1253. # [11:52] <Lachy> q+
  1254. # [11:52] * Zakim sees mjs, jgraham, Lachy on the speaker queue
  1255. # [11:52] <sicking> q+
  1256. # [11:52] * Zakim sees mjs, jgraham, Lachy, sicking on the speaker queue
  1257. # [11:52] * Joins: shh (~shh@public.cloak)
  1258. # [11:52] * Quits: kotakagi (~Koichi_Takagi_KDDI@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 20 seconds)
  1259. # [11:52] <tobie> present+ Tobie_Langel
  1260. # [11:54] * timeless sighs
  1261. # [11:54] * timeless irc client is lagged / disconnected
  1262. # [11:54] * odinho_ timeless you're here now
  1263. # [11:54] * mjs I'm seeing your stuff timeless
  1264. # [11:54] * timeless has 6 lines on a tablet not yet sent
  1265. # [11:54] <timeless> Travis: hopefully when webidl is pushed to rec, people will fix their implementations to match
  1266. # [11:55] <chaals> TL: If there are crucial parts of WebIDL that need to pass we need to make sure they do...
  1267. # [11:55] <timeless> ... so that we won't have 80% failures for indexeddb
  1268. # [11:55] <chaals> q?
  1269. # [11:55] * Zakim sees mjs, jgraham, Lachy, sicking on the speaker queue
  1270. # [11:55] <timeless> q?
  1271. # [11:55] <mjs> ack mjs
  1272. # [11:55] * Zakim sees mjs, jgraham, Lachy, sicking on the speaker queue
  1273. # [11:55] * Zakim sees jgraham, Lachy, sicking on the speaker queue
  1274. # [11:55] <timeless> mjs: i've heard there are things which are tested and fail
  1275. # [11:55] <timeless> ... i'd like to know what they are
  1276. # [11:55] <timeless> ... it's hard to talk in the abstract
  1277. # [11:55] <timeless> ... are these different in all browsers?
  1278. # [11:55] <timeless> ... or do the browsers all do one thing which is distinct from webidl
  1279. # [11:56] <timeless> ... in which case we could "fix" webidl
  1280. # [11:56] <timeless> ... but if the browsers each have different behaviors, then making them match webidl could be easier
  1281. # [11:56] <timeless> jgraham: for a lot of the things
  1282. # [11:56] <timeless> ... where we see lots and lots of fails
  1283. # [11:57] <timeless> ... it's the way the testharness has been written
  1284. # [11:57] <timeless> ... it's to test the webidl stuff very carefully
  1285. # [11:57] <timeless> ... we can't say nothing about it
  1286. # [11:57] <timeless> ... but atm, we have 4 browsers doing 4 distinct things
  1287. # [11:57] <timeless> ... where should attributes be on the prototype chain?
  1288. # [11:57] <timeless> ... on the objects, on the prototype, both?
  1289. # [11:57] <timeless> ... we discussed it on the ML
  1290. # [11:57] <timeless> ... we agreed it was the right solution technically
  1291. # [11:58] <timeless> ... but everyone who isn't doing that today needs to change this, it's tedious
  1292. # [11:58] <plh> q?
  1293. # [11:58] * Zakim sees jgraham, Lachy, sicking on the speaker queue
  1294. # [11:58] <timeless> ... but that shouldn't block specs
  1295. # [11:58] <plh> ack jg
  1296. # [11:58] * Zakim sees Lachy, sicking on the speaker queue
  1297. # [11:58] <plh> ack la
  1298. # [11:58] * Zakim sees sicking on the speaker queue
  1299. # [11:58] <chaals> ack lach
  1300. # [11:58] * Zakim sees sicking on the speaker queue
  1301. # [11:58] <timeless> Lachy: priotizing tests
  1302. # [11:58] <timeless> s/prio/priori/
  1303. # [11:58] <timeless> ... i have critical tests
  1304. # [11:58] <timeless> ... and nice to have tests
  1305. # [11:58] <hallvord> It's important to get those prototype chain issues worked out - or we get compat problems like http://my.opera.com/hallvors/blog/2012/10/26/microsofts-skydrive-gun-meet-foot
  1306. # [11:59] <timeless> ... including stuff in webidl that might fail
  1307. # [11:59] <timeless> ... changing some parts in webidl would require changing lots of things in our implementation
  1308. # [11:59] <timeless> ... and we didn't have the resources for that
  1309. # [11:59] <timeless> ... implementing TypeError / NSError from firefox
  1310. # [12:00] <timeless> ... changing that, it's in our code, it's a relatively small change
  1311. # [12:00] * Quits: Jungkee (~Jungkee@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 20 seconds)
  1312. # [12:00] <timeless> ... but it can affect lots of things
  1313. # [12:00] <mjs> q+
  1314. # [12:00] * Zakim sees sicking, mjs on the speaker queue
  1315. # [12:00] <timeless> ... requiring a lot of test fixes in our system
  1316. # [12:00] <timeless> q?
  1317. # [12:00] * Zakim sees sicking, mjs on the speaker queue
  1318. # [12:00] <timeless> ack sicking
  1319. # [12:00] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
  1320. # [12:00] <timeless> sicking: there are very few controversial things
  1321. # [12:00] * Joins: kotakagi (~kotakagi@public.cloak)
  1322. # [12:00] <chaals> q+ travis
  1323. # [12:00] * Zakim sees mjs, travis on the speaker queue
  1324. # [12:00] <chaals> +
  1325. # [12:00] <chaals> q+
  1326. # [12:00] * Zakim sees mjs, travis, chaals on the speaker queue
  1327. # [12:00] <timeless> ... there's very few cases where we should remove something from the spec
  1328. # [12:00] * Joins: Jungkee (~Jungkee@public.irc.w3.org)
  1329. # [12:00] <timeless> ... it's just tedious to fix
  1330. # [12:01] <timeless> ... and doesn't add value for implementers
  1331. # [12:01] <Jungkee> Present+ Jungkee_Song
  1332. # [12:01] <timeless> ... so it gets less priority
  1333. # [12:01] <chaals> ack mj
  1334. # [12:01] * Zakim sees travis, chaals on the speaker queue
  1335. # [12:01] <timeless> mjs: it'd be useful to make a list of known common things
  1336. # [12:01] <timeless> ... where there aren't 2 implementations matching webidl's spec
  1337. # [12:01] <timeless> ... if the harness could group things
  1338. # [12:01] * Joins: jaubourg (~jaubourg@public.irc.w3.org)
  1339. # [12:01] <timeless> ... based on which type of interop issue
  1340. # [12:01] <timeless> ... that'd be useful
  1341. # [12:02] <timeless> ... thus the remaining ones would be more easily identified
  1342. # [12:02] <timeless> ... for the n different behaviors of attribute behaviors
  1343. # [12:02] <timeless> ... i'd like to know what they are
  1344. # [12:02] <Lachy> q-
  1345. # [12:02] * Zakim sees travis, chaals on the speaker queue
  1346. # [12:02] <timeless> sicking: three behaviors i know of
  1347. # [12:02] <timeless> ... webkit puts stuff on object itself
  1348. # [12:03] <timeless> ... i think opera puts things on the relevant prototype object
  1349. # [12:03] <timeless> ... for dom node nodeName, on the Node interface object
  1350. # [12:03] <timeless> ... gecko puts it on the Node interface object and the leaf interface object
  1351. # [12:03] <timeless> ... e.g. Node and Div interface
  1352. # [12:03] <timeless> Travis: IE since 9 puts it on the Node prototype
  1353. # [12:03] * Quits: jcverdie (~jcverdie@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  1354. # [12:03] <timeless> jgraham: opera is different for Methods and Attributes
  1355. # [12:03] <timeless> ack Travis
  1356. # [12:03] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
  1357. # [12:04] <SimonPieters> in Opera methods are on the prototype, attributes are on the object.
  1358. # [12:04] <timeless> Travis: i'll take an action as we build the test
  1359. # [12:04] <timeless> ... to understand the impl report
  1360. # [12:04] <timeless> ... there's 2/3 here
  1361. # [12:04] * SimonPieters (iirc)
  1362. # [12:04] <timeless> ... it sounds like that'd be helpful for further discussion on issues
  1363. # [12:05] <timeless> chaals: if you build stuff on webidl
  1364. # [12:05] <timeless> ... and you change the spec underneath them
  1365. # [12:05] <timeless> ... that makes a mess for really hard to change things
  1366. # [12:05] <timeless> ... things outside web browsers
  1367. # [12:05] * plh guesses timeless used IE10 for the nav timing idl test
  1368. # [12:05] <timeless> ... we need to think about pragmatic
  1369. # [12:05] * timeless was using Nightly (Firefox)
  1370. # [12:06] * plh oh, interesting
  1371. # [12:06] * plh looks like they made a lot of changes then
  1372. # [12:06] * Parts: bryan (~bryan@public.irc.w3.org)
  1373. # [12:06] <timeless> chaals: a way of testing downstream specs
  1374. # [12:06] <timeless> ... and finding out what the issues are
  1375. # [12:06] <timeless> ... having a WG lets us discuss how to break each of everyone's systems to reach interop
  1376. # [12:07] <timeless> ... seems we have a path forward
  1377. # [12:07] <smaug> plh: to nav timing? I recall one change + webidl-fying the implementation
  1378. # [12:07] * timeless chrome fails 46 (passes 1)
  1379. # [12:07] * timeless was planning to grab ie10
  1380. # [12:07] * Quits: tokamoto_ (~tokamoto@public.cloak) (tokamoto_)
  1381. # [12:07] <timeless> ArtB: plh , do you know what to tell the web performance group?
  1382. # [12:09] <timeless> timeless: Nightly has 45 pass (2 fail)
  1383. # [12:09] <timeless> ... ie9 has 42 pass (5 fail)
  1384. # [12:09] <timeless> plh: i can take that to the director
  1385. # [12:09] <timeless> chaals: an answer to how long does it take to get done
  1386. # [12:09] <timeless> ... there's a priority problem
  1387. # [12:09] <timeless> ... "until web idl is finished, you have more work to do"
  1388. # [12:10] <timeless> ... to be sure that webidl isn't going to change under you
  1389. # [12:10] <Travis> q+
  1390. # [12:10] * Zakim sees chaals, Travis on the speaker queue
  1391. # [12:10] <krisk> IE10 has the same result as IE9 (42 pass, 5 fail)
  1392. # [12:10] <timeless> ... go back to groups "you should push web idl to be sure it's finished sooner"
  1393. # [12:10] <timeless> plh: those groups don't know how to test webidl
  1394. # [12:10] <timeless> chaals: i see darobin 's boss looking at darobin
  1395. # [12:11] * ArtB ACTION: robin get to work on updated WebIDL parser ;-)
  1396. # [12:11] <timeless> darobin: i'm coding it right now
  1397. # [12:11] <Travis> q-
  1398. # [12:11] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
  1399. # [12:11] <chaals> ack me
  1400. # [12:11] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1401. # [12:11] <timeless> Travis: i'd propose we send out a general announcement
  1402. # [12:11] <timeless> ... "if your spec depends on webidl. please contact Travis "
  1403. # [12:11] <timeless> ... "we'll see if we can prioritize your pieces of webidl"
  1404. # [12:11] * Quits: byungjung_ (~byungjung@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 20 seconds)
  1405. # [12:11] <timeless> plh: we have a few specs in PR waiting on WebIDL
  1406. # [12:11] <ArtB> ACTION: barstow work with PLH on an announcement seeking IRC fragments
  1407. # [12:11] * @trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  1408. # [12:11] * RRSAgent records action 6
  1409. # [12:11] <@trackbot> Created ACTION-669 - Work with PLH on an announcement seeking IRC fragments [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-11-05].
  1410. # [12:12] <timeless> ... including GeoLoc
  1411. # [12:12] <timeless> q?
  1412. # [12:12] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1413. # [12:12] <ArtB> s/IRC fragments/Web IDL fragments/
  1414. # [12:12] <timeless> chaals: on getting WebIDL stable, anything else we need to add?
  1415. # [12:12] <timeless> ... we have a plan
  1416. # [12:12] <timeless> ... find out what we don't agree on, work on making them work
  1417. # [12:13] * Quits: rotsuya (~rotsuya@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  1418. # [12:13] <timeless> Travis: please review the assertions in webidl http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/WebIDLTest.htm
  1419. # [12:13] <timeless> ArtB: i can send out a call for review to public-script-coord
  1420. # [12:13] <timeless> chaals: time check
  1421. # [12:14] <ArtB> ACTION: barstow start a Call for Review for Web IDL test plan on public-script-coord
  1422. # [12:14] * @trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  1423. # [12:14] * RRSAgent records action 7
  1424. # [12:14] <@trackbot> Created ACTION-670 - Start a Call for Review for Web IDL test plan on public-script-coord [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-11-05].
  1425. # [12:14] <timeless> ArtB: the guys working on Quota API could give a quick update
  1426. # [12:14] <timeless> topic: Quota API
  1427. # [12:15] * Quits: Alan (abird@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  1428. # [12:15] <timeless> ... she received two pieces of feedback
  1429. # [12:15] * ArtB notes Quota spec: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/quota/raw-file/tip/Overview.html
  1430. # [12:15] * Quits: rubylin (~rubylin@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 20 seconds)
  1431. # [12:15] <timeless> ... temporary/permanent
  1432. # [12:15] <MikeSmith> s/she/Kinuko/
  1433. # [12:15] <timeless> ... the other was to change the interface name
  1434. # [12:15] <timeless> ... to get the object instead of integer
  1435. # [12:16] <timeless> ... Kinuko mentioned changing temporary/permanent
  1436. # [12:16] <timeless> ... as far as she knows, chromium is the only browser supporting this api
  1437. # [12:16] <timeless> ... to move forward,
  1438. # [12:16] * Joins: rotsuya (~rotsuya@public.cloak)
  1439. # [12:16] * hiro is now known as hiro_away
  1440. # [12:16] * Joins: rubylin (~rubylin@public.cloak)
  1441. # [12:16] <timeless> ... she's eager to look at how to get others to associate things with
  1442. # [12:17] <timeless> [ .... ]
  1443. # [12:17] <timeless> tobie: vaguely, i made those comments
  1444. # [12:17] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
  1445. # [12:17] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
  1446. # [12:17] <timeless> timeless: he isn't an implementer, he's a consumer
  1447. # [12:17] * plh hum, idlharness.js doesn't seem to do anything with the Geolocation API :-/
  1448. # [12:17] * Quits: shh (~shh@public.cloak) ("Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi")
  1449. # [12:17] <timeless> topic: Lunch
  1450. # [12:18] * Quits: plh (plehegar@public.cloak) ("always accept cookies")
  1451. # [12:18] <timeless> chaals: 75 minutes for lunch
  1452. # [12:18] <timeless> ... be back here, 1:30 Central European Standard Time
  1453. # [12:18] <timeless> MikeSmith: will the room be locked?
  1454. # [12:18] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@public.cloak) ("is sleepy")
  1455. # [12:18] <timeless> chaals: MikeSmith will find out
  1456. # [12:18] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@public.cloak) ("Computer has gone to sleep.")
  1457. # [12:19] * Parts: aizu (~aizu@public.irc.w3.org)
  1458. # [12:19] * Parts: Wonsuk (~wonsuk73@public.cloak) (Wonsuk)
  1459. # [12:19] * Quits: Arno (~Arnaud@public.cloak) ("")
  1460. # [12:19] * Quits: dnkim (~dnkim@public.irc.w3.org) ("Page closed")
  1461. # [12:19] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  1462. # [12:19] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-minutes.html timeless
  1463. # [12:20] * Quits: yune_ (~yune@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 20 seconds)
  1464. # [12:20] * Quits: morrita (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  1465. # [12:20] <timeless> MikeSmith: if people want to leave stuff, we can lock the room
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  1489. # [12:25] <ArtB> ACTION: barstow work with Opera Websocket tester(s) on a Request for Review of their web socket tests
  1490. # [12:25] * @trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  1491. # [12:25] * RRSAgent records action 8
  1492. # [12:25] <@trackbot> Created ACTION-671 - Work with Opera Websocket tester(s) on a Request for Review of their web socket tests [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-11-05].
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  1528. # [13:03] * Topic is 'http://irc.w3.org #webapps TPAC 2012 WebApps F2F'
  1529. # [13:03] * Set by timeless on Mon Oct 29 08:57:23
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  1555. # [13:46] <kotakagi> s/Koichi Takagi/kotakagi/
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  1562. # [13:50] * abarsto is now known as ArtB
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  1565. # [13:52] <aizu> Present Hiroyuki_Aizu
  1566. # [13:53] <dgrogan_cloud> present+ David_Grogan
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  1569. # [13:55] <timeless> chaals: it's getting on towards the 1:30pm start time
  1570. # [13:55] <timeless> i/getting/Topic: IndexedDB/
  1571. # [13:55] * timeless dgrogan_cloud:
  1572. # [13:56] * odinho_ something useless
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  1574. # [13:56] <sicking> supercalifragelisticexpialidocious
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  1576. # [13:56] <timeless> s/supercalifragelisticexpialidocious//
  1577. # [13:56] <smaug> shadows
  1578. # [13:56] * mjs doesn't really want to talk, but sometimes can't help himself
  1579. # [13:56] <timeless> s/shadows/
  1580. # [13:56] <ArtB> s/Present Hiroyuki_Aizu/Present+ Hiroyuki_Aizu/
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  1582. # [13:56] * dgrogan_cloud is here for idb
  1583. # [13:56] * aklein says something concise
  1584. # [13:57] * Joins: slightlyoff (~u1768@public.cloak)
  1585. # [13:57] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
  1586. # [13:57] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
  1587. # [13:57] <slightlyoff> OH HAI
  1588. # [13:57] <timeless> chaals: anything else people want to talk about?
  1589. # [13:57] <timeless> lmastiner: will you talk about URLs?
  1590. # [13:57] <timeless> chaals: we're looking for an editor to rebrand annevk's work
  1591. # [13:57] * Joins: nsakai (~nsakai@public.cloak)
  1592. # [13:58] * Joins: Yuan (~Yuan@public.irc.w3.org)
  1593. # [13:58] <timeless> s/mastiner/masinter/
  1594. # [13:58] * Joins: dnkim (~dnkim@public.irc.w3.org)
  1595. # [13:58] <timeless> lmasinter: i'm interested making sure the IETF specs are useful
  1596. # [13:58] <timeless> chaals: good thing to do
  1597. # [13:58] * Joins: efullea (~efullea@public.irc.w3.org)
  1598. # [13:59] <timeless> topic: IETF specs
  1599. # [13:59] <timeless> chaals: where's the other mic?
  1600. # [13:59] * Joins: bryan (~bryan@public.irc.w3.org)
  1601. # [13:59] <timeless> lmasinter: there are 4 specs
  1602. # [13:59] * Joins: npdoty (npdoty@public.cloak)
  1603. # [13:59] <timeless> ... trying to describe what an IRI is
  1604. # [13:59] <timeless> ... there was a document for comparing IRIs
  1605. # [13:59] * Joins: jfmoy (~jfmoy@public.cloak)
  1606. # [13:59] <timeless> ... a document for bidirectional IRIs
  1607. # [13:59] <timeless> ... combining LTR w/ RTL text
  1608. # [14:00] <timeless> ... and a document to update the URI scheme registration
  1609. # [14:00] <timeless> ... because people were confused about URI/IRI registration
  1610. # [14:00] <timeless> ... the IRI WG has been meeting for several years
  1611. # [14:00] <timeless> ... there'll be a meeting in Atlanta next week
  1612. # [14:00] * Joins: takuya (~takuya@public.irc.w3.org)
  1613. # [14:00] * Joins: MagnusOlsson (~MagnusOlsson@public.irc.w3.org)
  1614. # [14:00] <timeless> ... i'll be there
  1615. # [14:00] * Joins: Alan (abird@public.cloak)
  1616. # [14:00] <timeless> ... i'm hoping if we'll get more test cases into the test suite
  1617. # [14:00] <timeless> ... we need to make sure the reality matches the right reality
  1618. # [14:00] * Joins: Veronica (veronica@public.cloak)
  1619. # [14:00] <timeless> ... the specs are open
  1620. # [14:01] <timeless> ... there's a tracker with issues
  1621. # [14:01] <timeless> ... there's been about 60 issues
  1622. # [14:01] <timeless> ... there hasn't been much overlap between the people here and there
  1623. # [14:01] * Joins: jbb (~jbb@public.irc.w3.org)
  1624. # [14:02] <timeless> ... i haven't seen substantive work taking place here
  1625. # [14:02] <timeless> ... we did commit to doing work
  1626. # [14:02] <timeless> lmasinter: i've been doing work with SDQ
  1627. # [14:03] <hsivonen> I have been lead to believe only Opera implements IDNA 2008. others implement 2003
  1628. # [14:04] <timeless> ... on rfc 3987
  1629. # [14:04] <odinho_> -> http://url.spec.whatwg.org/ WHATWG URL spec
  1630. # [14:04] <timeless> lmasinter: http://tools.ietf.org/wg/iri/trac/report/1
  1631. # [14:04] * Joins: sakkuru (~sakih@public.cloak)
  1632. # [14:04] * Joins: adrianba (~adrianba@public.cloak)
  1633. # [14:04] <timeless> alex_russell: Alex Russell, Google
  1634. # [14:04] * Joins: tokamoto (~tokamoto@public.cloak)
  1635. # [14:04] <timeless> ... who's signed up to implementing this?
  1636. # [14:04] * Joins: edoyle (~erikadoyle@public.cloak)
  1637. # [14:04] <timeless> lmasinter: the people who are there are those who have sent email
  1638. # [14:05] * Joins: Jungkee (~Jungkee@public.cloak)
  1639. # [14:05] <timeless> chaals: while we have a URI spec in our WG
  1640. # [14:05] <timeless> ... i haven't seen anyone doing work on it
  1641. # [14:05] <timeless> lmasinter: we put in 8 test cases, and all the browsers are different about how they behave
  1642. # [14:05] * Joins: jcverdie (~jcverdie@public.cloak)
  1643. # [14:06] <timeless> timeless: just filing the bugs is a first step
  1644. # [14:06] * Quits: Yuan (~Yuan@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 20 seconds)
  1645. # [14:06] <timeless> lmasinter: http://www.w3.org/wiki/UriTesting
  1646. # [14:06] * Joins: glenn (~gadams@public.cloak)
  1647. # [14:06] <timeless> ... http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/uri/2012Oct/0007.html
  1648. # [14:06] * Quits: sakkuru (~sakih@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 20 seconds)
  1649. # [14:07] * Joins: krisk (~krisk@public.irc.w3.org)
  1650. # [14:07] <timeless> ... i've been trying to get Chris Weber to put his testcases into a form where people can run them
  1651. # [14:07] <timeless> topic: Introductions continued
  1652. # [14:07] <timeless> tobie: Tobie Langel, Facebook, everything
  1653. # [14:07] * Joins: sakkuru (~sakih@public.cloak)
  1654. # [14:07] <timeless> amirabella: XXX
  1655. # [14:08] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
  1656. # [14:08] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
  1657. # [14:08] <timeless> alex_russell: Alex Russell, Google
  1658. # [14:08] <timeless> dgrogan_cloud: David Grogan, Google, IndexedDB
  1659. # [14:08] <timeless> mjs: Maciej, Apple, most things
  1660. # [14:08] * Joins: Travis (~5bd9a8dc@public.cloak)
  1661. # [14:08] <slightlyoff> timeless: I'm Alex Russell for the record
  1662. # [14:08] <timeless> bradee-oh: Bradee, Google, ibid
  1663. # [14:08] <bradee-oh> s/Bradee/Brady/
  1664. # [14:08] <bradee-oh> s/Google/Apple/
  1665. # [14:09] <timeless> spoussa: Sakario Poussa
  1666. # [14:09] <ArtB> Present+ Alex_Russell, Brady_Eidson, Jungkee_Song
  1667. # [14:09] <krisk> present+ kris_krueger
  1668. # [14:09] <timeless> Jungkee: Jungkee Song, Samsung
  1669. # [14:09] <ArtB> Present+ Larry_Masinter
  1670. # [14:09] <timeless> topic: IndexedDB
  1671. # [14:09] <timeless> sicking: we've gotten a bunch of feedback
  1672. # [14:09] * Quits: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak) (mjs)
  1673. # [14:09] <timeless> ... we've got a lot of feedback
  1674. # [14:09] <timeless> ... we need to integrate the feedback
  1675. # [14:10] <timeless> ... and then update the spec to use WebIDL
  1676. # [14:10] * ArtB notes: IDB last call comment doc is http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-IndexedDB-20120524/
  1677. # [14:10] <timeless> ... we have good scripts from darobin to do that
  1678. # [14:10] <timeless> ... i've been slacking
  1679. # [14:10] <odinho_> q+
  1680. # [14:10] * Zakim sees odinho_ on the speaker queue
  1681. # [14:10] * ArtB oops => http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/IndexedDB/raw-file/tip/IndexedDB%20Disposition%20of%20Comments.html
  1682. # [14:10] <timeless> ... either i need help, or i need to make it happen
  1683. # [14:10] * Joins: SteveH (~SteveH@public.cloak)
  1684. # [14:10] <timeless> chaals: who's doing impl?
  1685. # [14:10] <timeless> sicking: chrome and firefox are more or less fully spec conformant
  1686. # [14:10] <timeless> ... ie10 is mostly there
  1687. # [14:10] <timeless> ... i don't know about opera
  1688. # [14:10] * Joins: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak)
  1689. # [14:10] <timeless> odinho_: pretty done
  1690. # [14:10] <timeless> sicking: including blobs and array keypath?
  1691. # [14:10] * Joins: jaubourg (~jaubourg@public.irc.w3.org)
  1692. # [14:11] <timeless> odinho_: array keypath, yes
  1693. # [14:11] <timeless> ... blobs, some blobs
  1694. # [14:11] <timeless> [ laughter ]
  1695. # [14:11] <dgrogan_cloud> q+
  1696. # [14:11] * Zakim sees odinho_, dgrogan_cloud on the speaker queue
  1697. # [14:11] <timeless> odinho_: it's being reviewed
  1698. # [14:11] <timeless> ... we need to figure out ordering
  1699. # [14:11] <timeless> ... exceptions
  1700. # [14:11] <timeless> ... we want to get it in pretty soonish
  1701. # [14:12] * Joins: Yuan (~Yuan@public.irc.w3.org)
  1702. # [14:12] <timeless> odinho_: blocked error
  1703. # [14:12] <timeless> sicking: blocked vs. error
  1704. # [14:12] <timeless> odinho_: having a blocked error vs. an onblocked event
  1705. # [14:13] <timeless> ... we wanted a simpler thing
  1706. # [14:13] <timeless> ... where the developer ...
  1707. # [14:14] <timeless> sicking: we disagree
  1708. # [14:14] <timeless> dgrogan_cloud: internally we talked about it
  1709. # [14:14] <timeless> ... we liked opera's proposal
  1710. # [14:14] <timeless> ... but since we already implemented
  1711. # [14:14] <timeless> ... we're ambivalent
  1712. # [14:14] <timeless> sicking: there's the question of what microsoft wants
  1713. # [14:14] <timeless> ... there's also the question of exposing GC behavior
  1714. # [14:14] <timeless> ... the spec exposes some
  1715. # [14:15] <timeless> ... but if we do more, we may expose more GC
  1716. # [14:15] <timeless> ... the root cause is that there are GC effects
  1717. # [14:15] <timeless> ... i'm concerned about changing the spec given how implemented it is
  1718. # [14:15] <timeless> ack dgrogan_cloud
  1719. # [14:15] * Zakim sees odinho_ on the speaker queue
  1720. # [14:15] <timeless> dgrogan_cloud: i don't know if we want to discuss this further
  1721. # [14:16] <timeless> adrianba: we don't want to change the behavior we've implemented
  1722. # [14:16] * Joins: paul-huawei (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
  1723. # [14:16] <timeless> ... we've shipped this
  1724. # [14:16] <timeless> ... we're building applications that depend on this
  1725. # [14:16] <odinho_> q+
  1726. # [14:16] * Zakim sees odinho_ on the speaker queue
  1727. # [14:16] <timeless> ... the new version of exchange supports offline email using indexeddb
  1728. # [14:16] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@public.cloak)
  1729. # [14:16] <timeless> chaals: so we have legacy implementation
  1730. # [14:17] <timeless> ... such is life
  1731. # [14:17] <timeless> ... is opera's request just make work?
  1732. # [14:17] <timeless> sicking: so far, no one has opposed adding opera's requested behavior in a new function
  1733. # [14:17] <timeless> ... i don't have a strong opinion
  1734. # [14:17] * Joins: waynecarr (~86868b4a@public.cloak)
  1735. # [14:17] <timeless> ... but people will use the short named one with the bad behavior
  1736. # [14:18] <timeless> odinho_: if it has a longer name it will be less frequently used
  1737. # [14:18] <timeless> ack odinho_
  1738. # [14:18] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1739. # [14:18] <timeless> odinho_: i hope your exchange app doesn't need this
  1740. # [14:18] * ArtB notes IDB v2 Feature List is http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/IndexedDatabaseFeatures
  1741. # [14:18] <timeless> ... if the browser asks the page to close the connection, it should probably close the connection
  1742. # [14:18] <timeless> ... it's a corner case
  1743. # [14:18] <timeless> we tried arguing this for a while before
  1744. # [14:18] <timeless> ... it's quite late for us as well
  1745. # [14:19] <timeless> ... we implemented the other thing, it was extremely quick to do
  1746. # [14:19] <timeless> ... the consensus is to keep the spec as is
  1747. # [14:19] <timeless> ... it's a corner case
  1748. # [14:19] <timeless> ... hopefully it won't hurt too much
  1749. # [14:19] <timeless> ... if it starts hurting, we'd fix it in bug fixing
  1750. # [14:19] <timeless> ... v2 features
  1751. # [14:19] <timeless> ... get database names
  1752. # [14:19] <timeless> sicking: i think firefox is the only one w/o it
  1753. # [14:20] <timeless> odinho_: we implemented it as we saw in the email
  1754. # [14:20] <timeless> ... since everyone is implementing this
  1755. # [14:20] * Joins: divya (~Adium@public.cloak)
  1756. # [14:20] <timeless> ... it'll be on the web platform in some form
  1757. # [14:20] * Quits: divya (~Adium@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  1758. # [14:20] * Joins: divya1 (~Adium@public.cloak)
  1759. # [14:20] <timeless> sicking: we need to be able to figure out how to elevate new features
  1760. # [14:21] <timeless> ... if someone wants to work on extended functions in a v2
  1761. # [14:21] <timeless> ... for get database names
  1762. # [14:21] <timeless> ... i'd request it's a safe thing
  1763. # [14:21] <timeless> ... if you try to open it right away
  1764. # [14:21] <timeless> ... you're guaranteed to have it there with the version number you were told
  1765. # [14:22] * Joins: virginie_galindo (~virginie_galindo@public.irc.w3.org)
  1766. # [14:22] <timeless> odinho_: we did it super fast, so it probably doesn't do that
  1767. # [14:22] * divya1 is now known as divya
  1768. # [14:22] <timeless> sicking: that was my requirement when we discussed it earlier
  1769. # [14:22] <timeless> ... ms came back and said it makes sense but didn't they could do it in time
  1770. # [14:22] * Joins: yamaday (~yamaday@public.cloak)
  1771. # [14:22] <timeless> ... it's implementable, but non-trivial to implement
  1772. # [14:23] * Joins: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak)
  1773. # [14:23] * Joins: Bo_Chen (~Bo_Chen@public.irc.w3.org)
  1774. # [14:24] <timeless> adrianba: the other thing is that we've been close to a long time
  1775. # [14:24] <timeless> ... but we should get this first spec finalized
  1776. # [14:24] * Quits: Bo_Chen (~Bo_Chen@public.irc.w3.org) ("Page closed")
  1777. # [14:24] <timeless> sicking: i'm not interested in adding features for v1
  1778. # [14:24] <timeless> odinho_: for some internal stuff, we need this
  1779. # [14:24] <timeless> ... since we need it, we're going to implement it
  1780. # [14:25] <timeless> chaals: can we put it in an FPWD
  1781. # [14:25] <timeless> sicking: i'm happy to put it in a draft if people are
  1782. # [14:25] <timeless> chaals: sicking to write a v2 draft
  1783. # [14:25] <timeless> odinho_: by next week
  1784. # [14:25] * Joins: Norbert_ (~Norbert@public.cloak)
  1785. # [14:25] <dgrogan_cloud> q+
  1786. # [14:25] * Zakim sees dgrogan_cloud on the speaker queue
  1787. # [14:25] <timeless> chaals: i heard by tomorrow
  1788. # [14:25] <timeless> ArtB: v1 is in LC
  1789. # [14:26] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  1790. # [14:26] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-minutes.html timeless
  1791. # [14:26] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@public.cloak)
  1792. # [14:26] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@public.cloak)
  1793. # [14:26] <timeless> ArtB: what's eliott's status?
  1794. # [14:26] <timeless> adrianba: he's been pretty busy, but he's available
  1795. # [14:27] <timeless> sicking: there's also exception ordering
  1796. # [14:27] <timeless> ... which could be a big chunk of work
  1797. # [14:27] * Joins: BO_HU_CHINA_UNICOM (~5bd9a8dc@public.cloak)
  1798. # [14:27] <timeless> ArtB: can i assume sicking and israel can help?
  1799. # [14:27] <odinho_> q+ short about the undefined handling
  1800. # [14:27] * Zakim odinho_, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
  1801. # [14:27] <timeless> dgrogan_cloud: i don't think anyone from google has touched editing
  1802. # [14:28] <timeless> ArtB: we can editors
  1803. # [14:28] <timeless> dgrogan_cloud: those editors have moved on to other projects
  1804. # [14:28] * Quits: @trackbot (trackbot@public.irc.w3.org) (Client closed connection)
  1805. # [14:28] <timeless> odinho_: the bug about undefined handling sounds uncontroversiall
  1806. # [14:28] <timeless> s/all/al/
  1807. # [14:28] <timeless> ... treat undefined as missing
  1808. # [14:28] <dgrogan_cloud> q-
  1809. # [14:28] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1810. # [14:28] * Quits: kotakagi (~Koichi_Takagi_KDDI@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 20 seconds)
  1811. # [14:28] <timeless> sicking: i think the behavior has been decided on
  1812. # [14:29] <timeless> ... webidl spec doesn't define the desired behavior
  1813. # [14:29] <timeless> ... treat-undefined-as-missing will be the default behavior
  1814. # [14:29] <timeless> dgrogan_cloud: sounds like these are editorial things
  1815. # [14:29] <timeless> chaals: there's issues
  1816. # [14:29] <timeless> ... but not complex/controversial
  1817. # [14:29] <timeless> sicking: i think the only one is open()
  1818. # [14:29] <timeless> ... the exception issue is technical
  1819. # [14:29] <timeless> ... but it just needs to be defined
  1820. # [14:30] <timeless> ArtB: can anyone from Apple/Safari comment?
  1821. # [14:30] <timeless> bradee-oh: we have no comment
  1822. # [14:31] <timeless> chaals: does anyone care about websql?
  1823. # [14:31] <timeless> timeless: can you please bury it further than it's already buried?
  1824. # [14:31] <timeless> chaals: i don't know where's it's buried
  1825. # [14:31] <timeless> ... so good.
  1826. # [14:31] <timeless> [ Break until 2:45pm ]
  1827. # [14:31] <timeless> topic: Push APIs
  1828. # [14:32] * Joins: SimonPieters (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
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  1842. # [14:38] <JonathanJ> rrsagent, draft minutes
  1843. # [14:38] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-minutes.html JonathanJ
  1844. # [14:39] * Joins: kotakagi (~Koichi_Takagi_KDDI@public.cloak)
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  1853. # [14:48] * Parts: jfmoy (~jfmoy@public.cloak) (jfmoy)
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  1855. # [14:48] * Joins: jfmoy (~jfmoy@public.cloak)
  1856. # [14:48] <timeless> Zakim, call Rhone_3
  1857. # [14:48] <Zakim> sorry, timeless, I don't know what conference this is
  1858. # [14:48] <npdoty> Zakim, this is 2012
  1859. # [14:48] <Zakim> npdoty, I see IA_WebApps()4:00AM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be 2012".
  1860. # [14:48] <npdoty> Zakim, this will be 2012
  1861. # [14:48] <Zakim> ok, npdoty; I see IA_WebApps()4:00AM scheduled to start 345 minutes ago
  1862. # [14:48] <npdoty> Zakim, call Rhone_3
  1863. # [14:48] <Zakim> ok, npdoty; the call is being made
  1864. # [14:48] <Zakim> IA_WebApps()4:00AM has now started
  1865. # [14:48] <Zakim> +Rhone_3
  1866. # [14:49] <npdoty> Zakim, who is making noise?
  1867. # [14:49] <Zakim> npdoty, listening for 12 seconds I could not identify any sounds
  1868. # [14:49] <Zakim> -Rhone_3
  1869. # [14:49] <Zakim> IA_WebApps()4:00AM has ended
  1870. # [14:49] <Zakim> Attendees were Rhone_3
  1871. # [14:49] * Joins: paul-huawei (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
  1872. # [14:49] * Quits: adrianba (~adrianba@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 20 seconds)
  1873. # [14:49] * Quits: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  1874. # [14:50] <npdoty> Zakim, call Rhone_3
  1875. # [14:50] <Zakim> ok, npdoty; the call is being made
  1876. # [14:50] <Zakim> IA_WebApps()4:00AM has now started
  1877. # [14:50] <Zakim> +Rhone_3
  1878. # [14:50] <Zakim> -Rhone_3
  1879. # [14:50] <Zakim> IA_WebApps()4:00AM has ended
  1880. # [14:50] <Zakim> Attendees were Rhone_3
  1881. # [14:50] * Quits: Yuan (~Yuan@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 20 seconds)
  1882. # [14:51] * hiro_away is now known as hiro
  1883. # [14:51] * Joins: a1zu (~androirc@public.cloak)
  1884. # [14:52] <npdoty> Zakim, call Rhone_3
  1885. # [14:52] <Zakim> ok, npdoty; the call is being made
  1886. # [14:52] <Zakim> IA_WebApps()4:00AM has now started
  1887. # [14:52] <Zakim> +Rhone_3
  1888. # [14:52] * Quits: a12u (~androirc@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  1889. # [14:52] <npdoty> Zakim, who is making noise?
  1890. # [14:52] <Zakim> npdoty, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
  1891. # [14:52] <npdoty> Zakim, who is making noise?
  1892. # [14:52] * Joins: a12u (~androirc@public.cloak)
  1893. # [14:52] <npdoty> Zakim, who is on the phone?
  1894. # [14:52] <Zakim> On the phone I see Rhone_3
  1895. # [14:52] <Zakim> npdoty, listening for 11 seconds I could not identify any sounds
  1896. # [14:52] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  1897. # [14:52] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-minutes.html timeless
  1898. # [14:53] <npdoty> if you're trying to call in, please let us know if you are hearing anything, and if not, ping me
  1899. # [14:53] <timeless> bryan: we reached fpwd
  1900. # [14:53] <bryan> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/push/raw-file/default/index.html
  1901. # [14:54] <timeless> ... i'd suggest we do a quick run through
  1902. # [14:54] * Quits: a1zu (~androirc@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 20 seconds)
  1903. # [14:54] <timeless> ... hopefully many people have taken a look at this
  1904. # [14:54] * Joins: Hidetoshi (~yokota@public.cloak)
  1905. # [14:54] <timeless> ... we originally presented this in 2009
  1906. # [14:54] * Joins: MagnusOlsson (~MagnusOlsson@public.cloak)
  1907. # [14:54] * Joins: aizu (~aizu@public.irc.w3.org)
  1908. # [14:54] <timeless> ... last year we proposed doing this in the web-apps recharter
  1909. # [14:54] <timeless> ... in the interim we worked on this outside w3c
  1910. # [14:54] * Quits: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak) (mjs)
  1911. # [14:55] <timeless> ... this puts together things that are possible today using different methods
  1912. # [14:55] * Joins: Yune_ (~Yune@public.cloak)
  1913. # [14:55] <timeless> ... the focus of this api is on what happens between the application and its runtime
  1914. # [14:55] * Joins: jaubourg (~jaubourg@public.irc.w3.org)
  1915. # [14:55] <chaals> q+
  1916. # [14:55] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
  1917. # [14:55] <timeless> ... practical implementations take into account the platform in which the application runs
  1918. # [14:56] <timeless> ... that includes browser/native os platforms
  1919. # [14:56] * Joins: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak)
  1920. # [14:56] <timeless> ... or platforms from OMA/SMS/SIP
  1921. # [14:56] <timeless> ... whichever API is available/supported by the UA is supported through the API
  1922. # [14:56] <timeless> ... when we put out our CfC
  1923. # [14:56] * Joins: Cyril (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
  1924. # [14:56] <timeless> ... we only got a question from sicking
  1925. # [14:57] <timeless> ... we can take comments, or walk through the spec...
  1926. # [14:57] <timeless> chaals: can we skip through rapidly?
  1927. # [14:57] <timeless> chaals: who implements?
  1928. # [14:57] <timeless> sicking: for mozilla
  1929. # [14:57] <timeless> ... unfortunately, it isn't an easy answer
  1930. # [14:58] <timeless> ... there are patches to do the proposed api for gecko
  1931. # [14:58] * Joins: BO_HU_CHINA_UNICOM (~5bd9a8dc@public.cloak)
  1932. # [14:58] * Joins: yamaday (~yamaday@public.cloak)
  1933. # [14:58] <timeless> ... for Firefox OS
  1934. # [14:58] <timeless> ... (B2G)
  1935. # [14:58] <timeless> ... it was very recently decided that it wouldn't ship in the initial release of Firefox OS
  1936. # [14:58] <timeless> ... the api is implementable
  1937. # [14:58] <timeless> ... there's also an implementation of the server side infrastructure
  1938. # [14:58] <timeless> ... the reason we aren't putting in v1 is the set of reasons from my email
  1939. # [14:58] * Joins: Yuan (~Yuan@public.irc.w3.org)
  1940. # [14:58] <timeless> ... we're not convinced it's the right solution
  1941. # [14:59] <timeless> ... we are going to start working on experimenting to see what we think is the right solution
  1942. # [14:59] <timeless> chaals: you're interested in Push
  1943. # [14:59] <timeless> ... you want to make something work
  1944. # [14:59] * Joins: adrianba_ (~adrianba@public.cloak)
  1945. # [14:59] <timeless> ... if we had the same spec w/ different content?
  1946. # [14:59] <timeless> sicking: we're very interested in push
  1947. # [14:59] <timeless> ... but we want a good design
  1948. # [14:59] <timeless> /me sicking "implementation" -> "design" ?
  1949. # [15:00] * timeless sighs
  1950. # [15:00] <timeless> s| /me sicking "implementation" -> "design" ?||
  1951. # [15:00] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  1952. # [15:00] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-minutes.html timeless
  1953. # [15:00] <timeless> ed: we're working w/ mozilla
  1954. # [15:00] <timeless> ... and are very interested
  1955. # [15:00] * Joins: jcverdie (~jcverdie@public.cloak)
  1956. # [15:00] <timeless> BO_HU_CHINA_UNICOM: we're interested
  1957. # [15:00] <timeless> ... we won't be precisely implementing it
  1958. # [15:01] <timeless> ... but we're supportive of this unified api
  1959. # [15:01] * Joins: Yves (ylafon@public.irc.w3.org)
  1960. # [15:01] * Joins: Wonsuk (~wonsuk73@public.cloak)
  1961. # [15:01] <timeless> ... there's a question of whether there's a broker
  1962. # [15:01] <timeless> ... in /above the browser
  1963. # [15:01] <timeless> ... and accessible by web apps
  1964. # [15:02] <timeless> chaals: you don't implement your own browser
  1965. # [15:02] <timeless> BO_HU_CHINA_UNICOM: no, we don't
  1966. # [15:02] * Joins: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak)
  1967. # [15:02] <timeless> chaals: some operators say to certain browsers "you will do this"
  1968. # [15:02] <timeless> ... and some produce enough content that browsers will do this
  1969. # [15:02] * Joins: morrita (~Adium@public.cloak)
  1970. # [15:02] * Quits: BO_HU_CHINA_UNICOM (~5bd9a8dc@public.cloak) ("CGI:IRC (EOF)")
  1971. # [15:02] <timeless> BO_HU_CHINA_UNICOM: we may have significant influence over Chinese browsers
  1972. # [15:03] <timeless> ... if every web application builds on their own channel
  1973. # [15:03] <timeless> ... that's something to avoid
  1974. # [15:03] <timeless> ... it will have negative impact on devices and networks
  1975. # [15:03] <sicking> q+
  1976. # [15:03] * Zakim sees chaals, sicking on the speaker queue
  1977. # [15:03] <timeless> pbakaus: we're interested in this
  1978. # [15:03] <timeless> ... we want to push messages to the client
  1979. # [15:03] <timeless> ... in our games
  1980. # [15:03] <timeless> q?
  1981. # [15:03] * Zakim sees chaals, sicking on the speaker queue
  1982. # [15:03] <timeless> ack q
  1983. # [15:03] * Zakim sees chaals, sicking on the speaker queue
  1984. # [15:04] <timeless> ack chaals
  1985. # [15:04] * Zakim sees sicking on the speaker queue
  1986. # [15:04] <chaals> ack me
  1987. # [15:04] * Zakim sees sicking on the speaker queue
  1988. # [15:04] <timeless> bryan: we believe there is a lot of interest in the concept
  1989. # [15:04] <chaals> ack sick
  1990. # [15:04] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1991. # [15:04] <timeless> ... it isn't possible today to do this outside an app by app connection, or a shared worker
  1992. # [15:04] * Quits: SteveH (~SteveH@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 20 seconds)
  1993. # [15:04] <timeless> ... how things are done is less of a concern than that they are done
  1994. # [15:05] * Joins: KenjiBX (~KenjiBX@public.irc.w3.org)
  1995. # [15:05] <timeless> sicking: this draft is a lot closer to the right api
  1996. # [15:05] <timeless> ... than anything else that's been discussed in this space
  1997. # [15:05] <timeless> ... i'd love to hear from apple and google
  1998. # [15:05] <timeless> q+ to note that MS announced it had for Skype in wp8
  1999. # [15:05] * Zakim sees timeless on the speaker queue
  2000. # [15:06] * Joins: trackbot (trackbot@public.cloak)
  2001. # [15:06] <timeless> ... i'll note that a lot of companies have experience
  2002. # [15:06] <timeless> ... is apple interested in push for the web?
  2003. # [15:06] * Joins: shh (~shh@public.cloak)
  2004. # [15:06] <timeless> mjs: i think we'll need to wait for our legal department's review of this FPWD
  2005. # [15:06] <timeless> ... from a technical review, i haven't read/considered this spec
  2006. # [15:06] <timeless> ... your review has the concerns i'd want to express
  2007. # [15:07] <timeless> ... scalability and authentication are what i'd worry about
  2008. # [15:07] <timeless> sicking: can we get the people w/ experience to comment?
  2009. # [15:07] <timeless> mjs: probably not possible to get them to comment directly
  2010. # [15:07] <timeless> ... they aren't involved in standards
  2011. # [15:07] * Joins: kawada (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
  2012. # [15:07] <timeless> ... but i can probably get them to look at it and forward comments
  2013. # [15:08] <timeless> mjs: the way apple addressed this
  2014. # [15:08] <timeless> ... is that apple devices only trust apple servers
  2015. # [15:08] <timeless> and apple forces app authors to create certificates which we trust
  2016. # [15:08] * Parts: kawada (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
  2017. # [15:08] <timeless> ... i don't know of a way to avoid spam
  2018. # [15:08] <timeless> sicking: i think this spec requires the device to trust the push server
  2019. # [15:09] <timeless> ... but not the push server to trust the device
  2020. # [15:09] <timeless> rafaelw: i think we're interested
  2021. # [15:09] <timeless> q?
  2022. # [15:09] * Zakim sees timeless on the speaker queue
  2023. # [15:09] <timeless> ack me
  2024. # [15:09] <Zakim> timeless, you wanted to note that MS announced it had for Skype in wp8
  2025. # [15:09] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2026. # [15:09] <ArtB> ACTION: rafael provide feedback on Push API
  2027. # [15:09] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  2028. # [15:09] * RRSAgent records action 9
  2029. # [15:09] <trackbot> Created ACTION-672 - Provide feedback on Push API [on Rafael Weinstein - due 2012-11-05].
  2030. # [15:10] <timeless> adrianba_: so
  2031. # [15:10] <timeless> ... right now, Microsoft's experience / position is similar to mjs's outline of Apple's
  2032. # [15:10] <timeless> ... notifications are built on top of windows live notifications
  2033. # [15:10] * Quits: kensaku (~kensaku@public.cloak) ("Leaving...")
  2034. # [15:10] <timeless> ... that messenger has provided
  2035. # [15:10] * Joins: kensaku (~kensaku@public.cloak)
  2036. # [15:10] <timeless> ... we have a generic notification system
  2037. # [15:10] <timeless> ... operated by microsoft for WP
  2038. # [15:10] <ArtB> q+
  2039. # [15:10] * Zakim sees ArtB on the speaker queue
  2040. # [15:10] <timeless> ... it's tied in to the services provided by microsoft
  2041. # [15:10] * Quits: rotsuya (~rotsuya@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  2042. # [15:11] * Quits: divya (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  2043. # [15:11] <timeless> chaals: does Opera have any position?
  2044. # [15:11] <timeless> jgraham: i know nothing
  2045. # [15:11] <timeless> q?
  2046. # [15:11] * Zakim sees ArtB on the speaker queue
  2047. # [15:11] <timeless> ack ArtB
  2048. # [15:11] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2049. # [15:11] * Joins: rotsuya (~rotsuya@public.cloak)
  2050. # [15:11] <timeless> ArtB: quick question, probably to bryan and ed
  2051. # [15:11] <timeless> ... in section 9
  2052. # [15:12] <efullea> it is efullea, not ed
  2053. # [15:12] <timeless> ... are there issues w/ w3 having normative references to OMA / similar specs?
  2054. # [15:12] <timeless> bryan: i'm not aware of any
  2055. # [15:12] <timeless> ... establishing an api to connect to something supported by the device
  2056. # [15:12] <timeless> ... shouldn't be an issue
  2057. # [15:13] <timeless> chaals: tizen?
  2058. # [15:13] <timeless> Wonsuk: Wonsuk, Samsung
  2059. # [15:13] <timeless> ... for Tizen
  2060. # [15:14] <timeless> ... i think it's a core feature for a lot of mobile apps including Games/apps
  2061. # [15:14] <timeless> ... Samsung has its own service for this
  2062. # [15:14] * Quits: sakkuru (~sakih@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 20 seconds)
  2063. # [15:14] <timeless> chaals: so, everyone has a push system
  2064. # [15:14] <timeless> ... everyone who has one doesn't need a standard
  2065. # [15:14] <timeless> ... everyone who doesn't have a system want a standard
  2066. # [15:15] <timeless> bryan: in 80% of phones worldwide, push is supported
  2067. # [15:16] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  2068. # [15:17] <chaals> scribe: chaals
  2069. # [15:17] <npdoty> 30 minutes for coffee starting now, unless you want to talk about Push API details, in which case stick around
  2070. # [15:17] <chaals> timeless: "this" example is requesting permission. How does the server side discover where it wants to talk to?
  2071. # [15:17] <chaals> … does the platform get called to the URI?
  2072. # [15:18] * hiro is now known as hiro_away
  2073. # [15:18] * Quits: Norbert_ (~Norbert@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 20 seconds)
  2074. # [15:18] <chaals> … eg, zynga has an app on a phone, apple runs the network. I open the phone, how does the zynga app register to the cloud, so the zynga server knows where to send the push notification?
  2075. # [15:18] * ArtB don't confuse ArtPhone with SmartPhone ;-)
  2076. # [15:18] * Quits: virginie_galindo (~virginie_galindo@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 20 seconds)
  2077. # [15:19] <chaals> Bryan: There is a URL that the push service provides for the app to register and invoke the operation.
  2078. # [15:19] * Yves zakim, who is here?
  2079. # [15:19] * Zakim sees on the phone: Rhone_3
  2080. # [15:19] * Zakim sees on irc: rotsuya, kensaku, shh, trackbot, KenjiBX, morrita, darobin, Wonsuk, Yves, jcverdie, adrianba_, Yuan, yamaday, Cyril, mjs, jaubourg, Yune_, aizu, MagnusOlsson,
  2081. # [15:19] * Zakim ... Hidetoshi, a12u, paul-huawei, jfmoy, spoussa, sgodard, Shinji, kotakagi
  2082. # [15:19] <chaals> … It's the service URL in the activate variable (we are in example 1)
  2083. # [15:19] <chaals> … it is passed up to the application, to kbow where to invoke messages and what protocols are supported.
  2084. # [15:19] * Quits: kotakagi (~Koichi_Takagi_KDDI@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 20 seconds)
  2085. # [15:19] * Quits: Yune_ (~Yune@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 20 seconds)
  2086. # [15:20] <Zakim> +Yves
  2087. # [15:20] <chaals> … There are a variety of ways it could be done - people have worked on this for a dozen years or more.
  2088. # [15:21] * Joins: sakkuru (~sakih@public.cloak)
  2089. # [15:21] <rsleevi> Present+ Ryan_Sleevi
  2090. # [15:21] <chaals> Bryan. It is intended to describe the context of how push can work
  2091. # [15:21] <chaals> … show use cases like RTC, activity getting woken, multiple instances of apps, etc.
  2092. # [15:22] <chaals> … THings that folow from the use cases we proposed early on.
  2093. # [15:22] <chaals> … Security/Privacy section was filled in on request - this is fairly boilerplate text copied from DAP.
  2094. # [15:22] <timeless> timeless: fwiw, "&serverProtocols="+mypush.serverProtocols; should probably have an encode method, otherwise it's asking for pain :)
  2095. # [15:22] <chaals> … referenced Jonas' comments
  2096. # [15:22] <chaals> … So those are noted open questions for further discussion.
  2097. # [15:23] * Joins: kotakagi (~Koichi_Takagi_KDDI@public.cloak)
  2098. # [15:23] <chaals> … Framework section gives a general explanation, but main bit is between the app and the user agent. There are some artifacts coming from the way permission is arranged.
  2099. # [15:24] * Quits: jaubourg (~jaubourg@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 20 seconds)
  2100. # [15:24] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  2101. # [15:24] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-minutes.html timeless
  2102. # [15:24] <chaals> … for registration. Challenge we have seen in current push systems is developers lacking a way to globally implement a push-based app.
  2103. # [15:24] <chaals> … We're not presuming to establish one protocol for everyone, but to enable the app to discover what services are available in a given context.
  2104. # [15:26] <chaals> … We have pretty much taken the suggestions from Jonas on attributes for the interface. They facilitate some of the questions about keys, etc. We need to get into detail about how this addresses security, etc. Otherwise it is similar to server sent events in design - type of events, ready state, etc.
  2105. # [15:26] * Quits: shh (~shh@public.cloak) ("Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi")
  2106. # [15:27] <chaals> … There is a section on service bindings. Based on work done outside W3C and what might work well in W3C context. We left stuff out to simplify, eg headers (compared to OMA)
  2107. # [15:28] <chaals> … Same for SMS - no headers...
  2108. # [15:28] * Joins: Yune (~Yune@public.irc.w3.org)
  2109. # [15:29] * Quits: Shinji (shinji@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  2110. # [15:31] * Yves it was ok even before chaals started talking, but thx ;)
  2111. # [15:31] * Quits: tomoyuki (~tshimizu3@public.cloak) (tomoyuki)
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  2132. # [15:43] * Parts: zhoulan (~zhoulan@public.irc.w3.org)
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  2136. # [15:45] * Quits: morrita (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  2137. # [15:47] * Quits: a12u (~androirc@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 20 seconds)
  2138. # [15:47] * Quits: tomoyuki (~tshimizu3@public.cloak) (tomoyuki)
  2139. # [15:47] * Quits: Yuan (~Yuan@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 20 seconds)
  2140. # [15:47] * Joins: morrita (~Adium@public.cloak)
  2141. # [15:48] * ArtB waves to dglazkov
  2142. # [15:48] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
  2143. # [15:48] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
  2144. # [15:48] * Joins: tomoyuki (~tshimizu3@public.cloak)
  2145. # [15:49] <ArtB> zakim, who's here?
  2146. # [15:49] <Zakim> On the phone I see Rhone_3, Yves
  2147. # [15:49] <Zakim> On IRC I see tomoyuki, morrita, npdoty, Yune_, edoyle, Shinji, divya, jcverdie, kotakagi, sakkuru, kensaku, trackbot, KenjiBX, darobin, Yves, adrianba_, Cyril, mjs, aizu,
  2148. # [15:49] <Zakim> ... MagnusOlsson, paul-huawei, sgodard, Arno, SimonPieters, shepazu, waynecarr
  2149. # [15:50] * dglazkov waves back to ArtB
  2150. # [15:50] <npdoty> Zakim, code?
  2151. # [15:50] <Zakim> the conference code is 2012 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), npdoty
  2152. # [15:51] * ArtB PIN = 2012
  2153. # [15:51] * ArtB dglazkov -> got it re phone number and PIN?
  2154. # [15:51] * dglazkov got it. dialing in
  2155. # [15:51] * ArtB yves - can you hear us?
  2156. # [15:51] * npdoty Yves, can you hear us?
  2157. # [15:52] * npdoty yes, we can hear you too, just
  2158. # [15:52] * Yves my muted x-lite windows was buried ;)
  2159. # [15:52] * Joins: smaug_ (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
  2160. # [15:53] * Joins: rotsuya (~rotsuya@public.cloak)
  2161. # [15:53] * Quits: smaug (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 20 seconds)
  2162. # [15:53] * smaug_ is now known as smaug
  2163. # [15:53] <Zakim> + +1.650.214.aaaa
  2164. # [15:53] * Quits: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  2165. # [15:55] * Joins: tokamoto (~tokamoto@public.cloak)
  2166. # [15:55] <ArtB> Scribe+ ArtB
  2167. # [15:55] <ArtB> Topic: Shadow DOM
  2168. # [15:55] <timeless> scribe: timeless
  2169. # [15:55] * Joins: a12u (~androirc@public.cloak)
  2170. # [15:55] <ArtB> DG: [provides some history of the spec ...]
  2171. # [15:55] <kotakagi> Present+ Koichi_Takagi
  2172. # [15:55] <timeless> dglazkov: custom dom elements
  2173. # [15:55] * Joins: spoussa (~Adium@public.cloak)
  2174. # [15:55] <timeless> ... i started writing as a response to
  2175. # [15:55] <timeless> ... the needs from the mozilla folks
  2176. # [15:55] <timeless> ... who started implementing some of these things
  2177. # [15:56] <timeless> ... i felt i needed to start capturing requirements
  2178. # [15:56] <timeless> ... this spec is in the very early stages at this point
  2179. # [15:56] * Quits: sgodard (~sgodard@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 20 seconds)
  2180. # [15:56] <timeless> ... for when people ask "how does this work"
  2181. # [15:56] <timeless> ... the shadow dom spec is in really good shape
  2182. # [15:56] * adrianba_ is now known as adrianba
  2183. # [15:56] <timeless> ... someone said "no plan survives contact with the enemy"
  2184. # [15:56] * Joins: yamaday (~yamaday@public.cloak)
  2185. # [15:56] <timeless> ... in this case, the enemy is the users
  2186. # [15:56] * Joins: Yongrok (~Yongrok@public.irc.w3.org)
  2187. # [15:56] <timeless> ... we discover that we haven't thought about this/we haven't thought about that
  2188. # [15:57] <timeless> ... the other thing that can happen
  2189. # [15:57] <timeless> ... we tried to work w/ CSS WG a bit more
  2190. # [15:57] <timeless> ... there's a lot of concepts that bleed over from shadow dom into css
  2191. # [15:57] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
  2192. # [15:57] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
  2193. # [15:58] <timeless> ... currently some things are hard coded in shadow dom
  2194. # [15:58] * Joins: sgodard (~sgodard@public.cloak)
  2195. # [15:58] <timeless> ... but i want to redefine it in terms of displayed content
  2196. # [15:58] <timeless> ... which will enable the text to disappear
  2197. # [15:58] <timeless> ... i'm going to let rafaelw cover html templates
  2198. # [15:59] <timeless> rafaelw: html templates is a collaboration between google and microsoft
  2199. # [15:59] * Quits: jcverdie (~jcv@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  2200. # [15:59] <timeless> ... trossi
  2201. # [15:59] <timeless> ... the <template> element is from the web components effort
  2202. # [15:59] <morrita> s/displayed content/display: content/
  2203. # [15:59] <timeless> ... web applications need a way to declare a fragment of dom that isn't in use when the fragment loads
  2204. # [15:59] <timeless> ... but is used later
  2205. # [15:59] <timeless> ... this is important for declarative declaration of components
  2206. # [15:59] <adrianba> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/spec/templates/index.html
  2207. # [15:59] <timeless> ... for declaring shadow dom
  2208. # [15:59] <timeless> ... we're pretty close to FPWD
  2209. # [16:00] <timeless> ... a majority of the work is going into validating the parser changes
  2210. # [16:00] * Joins: jaubourg (~jaubourg@public.irc.w3.org)
  2211. # [16:00] <timeless> ... there was a discussion about contextless parsing, or implied parsing
  2212. # [16:00] <timeless> ... there was a consensus about implied parsing
  2213. # [16:00] <timeless> ... the parser wouldn't have an explict context element
  2214. # [16:00] <timeless> ... it would choose it
  2215. # [16:00] <timeless> ... there seemed to be no dissent to doing this
  2216. # [16:01] <timeless> ... but there was an objection to an explicit api (document.parse)
  2217. # [16:01] * Joins: jcv (~jcv@public.cloak)
  2218. # [16:01] <timeless> ... the parser changes encapsulated changes are managed by the <template> element
  2219. # [16:01] <timeless> ... changing the parser itself may be controversial
  2220. # [16:01] <timeless> ... i'm not sure if people have questions about the <template> element
  2221. # [16:01] <timeless> ... there are two ideas
  2222. # [16:01] <timeless> ... one is accommodating this type of content
  2223. # [16:02] <timeless> ... the other is the concept of the content being inert
  2224. # [16:02] <timeless> ... the parser takes the content and makes it a document fragment
  2225. # [16:02] <timeless> ... hsivonen here?
  2226. # [16:02] <timeless> hsivonen: yes
  2227. # [16:02] <timeless> rafaelw: i know you had concerns
  2228. # [16:02] <timeless> hsivonen: this is such a radical thing to do
  2229. # [16:03] * hiro_away is now known as hiro
  2230. # [16:03] <timeless> ... it's radically unusual to do this sort of thing
  2231. # [16:03] <timeless> ... where the markup and data structure no longer have the correspondence the DOM was designed to have
  2232. # [16:03] <timeless> ... DOM was designed to have an AST
  2233. # [16:04] <timeless> ... for XHTML
  2234. # [16:04] <timeless> ... we're breaking that
  2235. # [16:04] <timeless> ... not that i care about XHTML per se
  2236. # [16:04] <mjs> q+
  2237. # [16:04] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
  2238. # [16:04] * Joins: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak)
  2239. # [16:04] * Quits: trackbot (trackbot@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  2240. # [16:05] * darobin Hi Pearl!
  2241. # [16:05] * Joins: Norbert (~standards@public.cloak)
  2242. # [16:05] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@public.cloak)
  2243. # [16:05] * chaals waves to pearl too
  2244. # [16:05] * timeless kicks darobin
  2245. # [16:06] * ArtB slightlyoff -> to get on the queue, just enter: q+ [ optional comment … ]
  2246. # [16:06] <timeless> mjs: how important is it to the goals of the <template> element
  2247. # [16:06] <timeless> ... is it to retain inline markup
  2248. # [16:06] * Joins: jfmoy (~jfmoy@public.cloak)
  2249. # [16:06] <timeless> ... it seems like the template could have a src= attribute, or a srcdoc= attribute
  2250. # [16:06] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@public.cloak) (sicking)
  2251. # [16:07] <timeless> rafaelw: it's our opinion that it's worth doing
  2252. # [16:07] * dglazkov is sad he can't be there in person. Great discussion.
  2253. # [16:07] <timeless> ... we could imagine a future src= attribute
  2254. # [16:07] * Joins: a1zu (~androirc@public.cloak)
  2255. # [16:07] * Quits: a12u (~androirc@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  2256. # [16:07] <timeless> ... srcdoc= is the more relevant proposal
  2257. # [16:07] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@public.cloak)
  2258. # [16:07] <mjs> q+
  2259. # [16:07] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
  2260. # [16:07] <timeless> ... that was brought up on the mailing list including CDATA
  2261. # [16:07] <timeless> ... none of those proposals offer a good combination of developer ergonomics
  2262. # [16:07] <timeless> ... recursively defined components
  2263. # [16:08] <timeless> ... a component that uses a templating mechanism
  2264. # [16:08] <hsivonen> I want the above-parser impl to be the same for HTML and XHTML
  2265. # [16:08] <timeless> ... it's my feeling that it's worth doing
  2266. # [16:08] <timeless> q?
  2267. # [16:08] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
  2268. # [16:08] <timeless> Travis: standing in for trossi
  2269. # [16:08] <timeless> ... i think our position is we don't care either way
  2270. # [16:08] <timeless> ack mjs
  2271. # [16:08] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2272. # [16:08] <adrianba> s/trossi/tross/
  2273. # [16:08] <timeless> s/trossi/tross/g
  2274. # [16:09] <timeless> mjs: src[doc] solves the inert document question
  2275. # [16:09] <timeless> ... it's much easier to make a compatible polyfill model using js with src[doc]
  2276. # [16:09] <slightlyoff> q+
  2277. # [16:09] * Zakim sees slightlyoff on the speaker queue
  2278. # [16:09] <timeless> ... you're creating a huge hazard for developers
  2279. # [16:09] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  2280. # [16:09] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-minutes.html timeless
  2281. # [16:10] <timeless> ... it's much easier to backfill this with js if you use src[doc]
  2282. # [16:10] * darobin or we could just drive developers crazy by adding Element.inertHTML :)
  2283. # [16:10] <annevk> s/src[doc]/srcdoc=""/
  2284. # [16:10] <timeless> slightlyoff: it's possible to use display:none
  2285. # [16:10] <timeless> ... and have rules about not having side-effect code
  2286. # [16:11] <mjs> q+
  2287. # [16:11] * Zakim sees slightlyoff, mjs on the speaker queue
  2288. # [16:11] * dglazkov ergonomics is key here!
  2289. # [16:11] * Quits: jcv (~jcv@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  2290. # [16:12] <timeless> ... there's a thing TemplateXZ which does this
  2291. # [16:12] <timeless> slightlyoff: we don't need to preclude one by agreeing that the other is a good idea
  2292. # [16:12] <timeless> s/+ alex_russell/+ alex_russell_(slightlyoff)/
  2293. # [16:12] <timeless> hsivonen: for 2d / webgl, for perf reasons, people move to webgl
  2294. # [16:13] <timeless> ... for polyfill it isn't clear that the benefits outweigh the hacky thing
  2295. # [16:13] <timeless> ... people would rather use some new thing
  2296. # [16:13] <timeless> ... rather than something that works w/ ie10 w/in its support peroid
  2297. # [16:13] <timeless> s/oid/iod/
  2298. # [16:13] <timeless> chaals: i get nervous about "new-that-breaks-backwards-compat"
  2299. # [16:14] * darobin or we could just make templates exist only in XHTML2
  2300. # [16:14] <timeless> slightlyoff: i'm not slightly sympathetic to that view
  2301. # [16:14] <timeless> ... it's microsoft's job to get their users off the old browsers
  2302. # [16:14] <timeless> q+ chaals
  2303. # [16:14] * Zakim sees slightlyoff, mjs, chaals on the speaker queue
  2304. # [16:14] <timeless> ack slightlyoff
  2305. # [16:14] * Zakim sees mjs, chaals on the speaker queue
  2306. # [16:14] <timeless> ... we have library authors who are adamant that this is what they want
  2307. # [16:14] <timeless> ... document fragments don't do it
  2308. # [16:14] * Joins: Yuan (~Yuan@public.irc.w3.org)
  2309. # [16:14] <timeless> ... EmberJS
  2310. # [16:15] <timeless> s/EmberJS/Ember.js/
  2311. # [16:15] <dglazkov> q+
  2312. # [16:15] * Zakim sees mjs, chaals, dglazkov on the speaker queue
  2313. # [16:15] * Joins: byungjung (~byungjung@public.irc.w3.org)
  2314. # [16:15] <timeless> pbakaus: i tend to agree
  2315. # [16:15] <timeless> ... perf characteristics should also be considered
  2316. # [16:15] <timeless> ... if not making it backwards compat gives a big win
  2317. # [16:15] <timeless> ... it's worth it
  2318. # [16:15] <timeless> ack chaals
  2319. # [16:15] * Zakim sees mjs, dglazkov on the speaker queue
  2320. # [16:16] <timeless> chaals: yandex has no sympathy with your view that people should force users to upgrade
  2321. # [16:16] <timeless> ... we ship content to most of russia
  2322. # [16:16] <timeless> ... and those users don't upgrade
  2323. # [16:16] <timeless> ... it costs us a boat-load when people change things
  2324. # [16:16] <timeless> ... if there's a way to avoid that
  2325. # [16:16] <timeless> ... and from a development perspective, it provides the functionality
  2326. # [16:16] * Joins: Hidetoshi (~yokota@public.cloak)
  2327. # [16:17] <timeless> ... then there's no question about which is right, and which is insane
  2328. # [16:17] <timeless> ... we all want every browser user to upgrade
  2329. # [16:17] <timeless> ... but they don't
  2330. # [16:17] <timeless> ... it costs us boatloads to assume they do
  2331. # [16:17] <timeless> ack mjs
  2332. # [16:17] * Zakim sees dglazkov on the speaker queue
  2333. # [16:17] <timeless> mjs: developer ergonomics has been cited as an important reason for this
  2334. # [16:17] <timeless> ... for components, it's assumed that components will be reusable
  2335. # [16:17] <timeless> ... is it really assumed that they'll be included inline
  2336. # [16:17] <timeless> ... instead of at a shared place
  2337. # [16:18] * Quits: divya (~Adium@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  2338. # [16:18] <timeless> ... rafaelw said we will have to break compatibility
  2339. # [16:18] <timeless> ... we might as do it now
  2340. # [16:18] <timeless> ... what's that
  2341. # [16:18] <timeless> q?
  2342. # [16:18] * Zakim sees dglazkov on the speaker queue
  2343. # [16:18] * Quits: kensaku (~kensaku@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  2344. # [16:18] * Quits: Yuan (~Yuan@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  2345. # [16:18] <timeless> dglazkov: i'll answer
  2346. # [16:18] <hsivonen> why aren't templates loaded via XHR?
  2347. # [16:18] <timeless> ... the compat concern
  2348. # [16:19] <morrita> q+
  2349. # [16:19] * Zakim sees dglazkov, morrita on the speaker queue
  2350. # [16:19] <timeless> ... is really serious and valuable
  2351. # [16:19] <timeless> ... the whole issue comes down to
  2352. # [16:19] <timeless> ... compatibility
  2353. # [16:19] <timeless> ... and making sure you can provide this content to old browsers as well
  2354. # [16:19] <hsivonen> q+
  2355. # [16:19] * Zakim sees dglazkov, morrita, hsivonen on the speaker queue
  2356. # [16:19] <timeless> ... and polyfill it
  2357. # [16:19] * Joins: JY (~JY@public.cloak)
  2358. # [16:19] <timeless> ... you can develop a feature
  2359. # [16:19] <chaals> q+ hallvord
  2360. # [16:19] * Zakim sees dglazkov, morrita, hsivonen, hallvord on the speaker queue
  2361. # [16:19] * Quits: edoyle (~erikadoyle@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  2362. # [16:19] <timeless> ... but this template feature
  2363. # [16:19] * chaals wonders where morrita is sitting
  2364. # [16:19] * Joins: Wonsuk (~wonsuk73@public.cloak)
  2365. # [16:19] <timeless> ... srcdoc has bad regonomics
  2366. # [16:19] * Joins: divya1 (~Adium@public.cloak)
  2367. # [16:19] <timeless> ... how do we balance this
  2368. # [16:19] * divya1 is now known as divya
  2369. # [16:19] <timeless> ... mjs asked about reusable components
  2370. # [16:20] <timeless> ... but if for every definition of components, i need to fetch some other file that defines this component, that's terrible
  2371. # [16:20] <timeless> q+ chaals
  2372. # [16:20] * Zakim sees dglazkov, morrita, hsivonen, hallvord, chaals on the speaker queue
  2373. # [16:20] <timeless> ... sure you should be able to split them up
  2374. # [16:20] <timeless> ... but that shouldn't be the only way
  2375. # [16:20] * Joins: JonathanJ (~hollobit@public.cloak)
  2376. # [16:20] <timeless> ... compatibility seems to be a bug-a-bear
  2377. # [16:20] <timeless> ... what is actually going to break
  2378. # [16:20] <timeless> ... and what can we say "this is ok"
  2379. # [16:21] <timeless> ... as someone who wrote a polyfill for templates in web components
  2380. # [16:21] * Joins: Dewa (~dewa@public.cloak)
  2381. # [16:21] * Joins: kensaku (~kensaku@public.cloak)
  2382. # [16:22] * Quits: kensaku (~kensaku@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  2383. # [16:22] <timeless> rafaelw: i didn't mean to imply that we need to break compat
  2384. # [16:22] <timeless> dglazkov: i'm sorry i can't see your faces
  2385. # [16:22] <timeless> ... chaals you asked a philosophical question
  2386. # [16:22] * Joins: kensaku (~kensaku@public.cloak)
  2387. # [16:22] <timeless> [ scribe didn't minute it ]
  2388. # [16:22] <mjs> q+
  2389. # [16:22] * Zakim sees dglazkov, morrita, hsivonen, hallvord, chaals, mjs on the speaker queue
  2390. # [16:22] <npdoty> rafaelw: I didn't have some specific criterion/condition for why we would should break compatibility at this point in time
  2391. # [16:22] <timeless> dglazkov: if we're breaking something, how badly are we breaking it
  2392. # [16:22] <mjs> q+ to ask, if you can polyfill fine now, why do we need a new feature for inert dom?
  2393. # [16:22] * Zakim sees dglazkov, morrita, hsivonen, hallvord, chaals, mjs on the speaker queue
  2394. # [16:22] <timeless> rafaelw: aside from static documents
  2395. # [16:23] <timeless> ... most apps hide templates with some hack
  2396. # [16:23] <timeless> ... comments, text fields, ...
  2397. # [16:23] <timeless> ... we're not going to make life any better
  2398. # [16:23] <hallvord> ... script tags ...
  2399. # [16:23] <timeless> ... i don't think srcdoc is better than existing hacks
  2400. # [16:23] * Joins: kensaku_ (~kensaku@public.cloak)
  2401. # [16:23] <timeless> ... using <script> is better than that
  2402. # [16:23] * Joins: jeff (jeff@public.cloak)
  2403. # [16:23] <timeless> ... pages keep content hidden, squirreled away somehow
  2404. # [16:23] <timeless> ... composing documents w/ innerHTML/script
  2405. # [16:24] <timeless> ... i don't think it should be controversial that there's an established need for something better than we have now
  2406. # [16:24] <timeless> ... it's my opinion that we've settled on something
  2407. # [16:24] <timeless> ... it does need something
  2408. # [16:24] <timeless> ... parser changes
  2409. # [16:24] <timeless> chaals: there's no disagreement that we need the functionality
  2410. # [16:24] <timeless> ... the question is how we get it
  2411. # [16:24] <timeless> ... is there anyone who says "we don't need <template>ing"
  2412. # [16:24] * dglazkov nods
  2413. # [16:25] <timeless> q?
  2414. # [16:25] * Zakim sees dglazkov, morrita, hsivonen, hallvord, chaals, mjs on the speaker queue
  2415. # [16:25] <timeless> [ no one ]
  2416. # [16:25] <timeless> hallvord: re: breaking back-compat
  2417. # [16:25] <timeless> ... what's the oldest computer in your circle of family/friends
  2418. # [16:25] <timeless> ... when we should develop the web
  2419. # [16:25] <timeless> ... we should accommodate them
  2420. # [16:25] <timeless> slightlyoff: there are semantics we need to put into the platform
  2421. # [16:26] <timeless> ... are there semantics we need to put into the browser
  2422. # [16:26] <timeless> ... we can auto update those browsers
  2423. # [16:26] <timeless> ack morrita
  2424. # [16:26] * Zakim sees dglazkov, hsivonen, hallvord, chaals, mjs on the speaker queue
  2425. # [16:26] * Quits: kensaku (~kensaku@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  2426. # [16:26] <timeless> morrita: why can't we extend
  2427. # [16:26] <timeless> chaals: we all accept we need <template>ing
  2428. # [16:26] <timeless> q- dglazkov
  2429. # [16:26] * Zakim sees hsivonen, hallvord, chaals, mjs on the speaker queue
  2430. # [16:26] <timeless> ack hsivonen
  2431. # [16:26] * Zakim sees hallvord, chaals, mjs on the speaker queue
  2432. # [16:26] * Quits: kensaku_ (~kensaku@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  2433. # [16:27] <timeless> hsivonen: srcdoc= erognomics are bad
  2434. # [16:27] * Quits: divya (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  2435. # [16:27] * Joins: kensaku (~kensaku@public.cloak)
  2436. # [16:27] * Quits: Hidetoshi (~yokota@public.cloak) (Hidetoshi)
  2437. # [16:27] <timeless> ... and pages use <script>template-inline-here</script>
  2438. # [16:27] <timeless> ... we have XHR
  2439. # [16:27] <hallvord> q-
  2440. # [16:27] * Zakim sees chaals, mjs on the speaker queue
  2441. # [16:27] <timeless> ... which works in all browsers
  2442. # [16:27] <timeless> ... why don't we specify templates be external resources loaded via xhr
  2443. # [16:27] * Quits: kotakagi (~Koichi_Takagi_KDDI@public.cloak) ("TakIRC")
  2444. # [16:27] <timeless> ... considering we want script/css in external files
  2445. # [16:28] <timeless> ... for paving a cowpath, it seems people want to put this inline
  2446. # [16:28] <timeless> ... why don't we want to use XHR for this?
  2447. # [16:28] * dglazkov good question, hsivonen!
  2448. # [16:28] <timeless> rafaelw: that has a terrible perf profile
  2449. # [16:28] <timeless> ... production web sites go to great lengths not to break up pages
  2450. # [16:28] <pbakaus> I agree with rafaelw
  2451. # [16:28] <timeless> ... it's important to use inline declared content
  2452. # [16:28] * Joins: Hidetoshi (~yokota@public.cloak)
  2453. # [16:28] * Joins: divya (~Adium@public.cloak)
  2454. # [16:28] <timeless> ... it's a non starter to say all content is remotely sourced
  2455. # [16:29] <timeless> q+ to ask about HTTP2
  2456. # [16:29] * Zakim sees chaals, mjs, timeless on the speaker queue
  2457. # [16:29] <timeless> chaals: i buy the perf argument
  2458. # [16:29] <timeless> ... the dev ergonomics argument is harder
  2459. # [16:29] <timeless> ... the yandex BEM library
  2460. # [16:29] <timeless> ... (used by our biggest competitor as well)
  2461. # [16:29] <timeless> ... sources things externally
  2462. # [16:29] <timeless> ... if we started out by bringing templates in w/ srcdoc
  2463. # [16:30] <timeless> ... and we then said "it'd be really cool if we could drop this in line"
  2464. # [16:30] <pbakaus> +q
  2465. # [16:30] * Zakim sees chaals, mjs, timeless, pbakaus on the speaker queue
  2466. # [16:30] <timeless> ... could we get consensus sooner
  2467. # [16:30] <timeless> ack chaals
  2468. # [16:30] * Zakim sees mjs, timeless, pbakaus on the speaker queue
  2469. # [16:30] <sicking> q+
  2470. # [16:30] * Zakim sees mjs, timeless, pbakaus, sicking on the speaker queue
  2471. # [16:30] <timeless> ack mjs
  2472. # [16:30] <Zakim> mjs, you wanted to ask, if you can polyfill fine now, why do we need a new feature for inert dom?
  2473. # [16:30] * Quits: Norbert (~standards@public.cloak) (Norbert)
  2474. # [16:30] * Zakim sees timeless, pbakaus, sicking on the speaker queue
  2475. # [16:30] <jaubourg> q+
  2476. # [16:30] * Zakim sees timeless, pbakaus, sicking, jaubourg on the speaker queue
  2477. # [16:30] * Quits: kensaku (~kensaku@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  2478. # [16:31] * Joins: kensaku (~kensaku@public.cloak)
  2479. # [16:31] <timeless> mjs: that needs to be a huge win given the acknowledged high cost
  2480. # [16:31] <timeless> ... what are the downsides of <Script type=non-standard>
  2481. # [16:31] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  2482. # [16:31] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
  2483. # [16:31] <timeless> ... we could make <script type=standard>
  2484. # [16:31] <timeless> ack me
  2485. # [16:31] <Zakim> timeless, you wanted to ask about HTTP2
  2486. # [16:31] * Zakim sees pbakaus, sicking, jaubourg on the speaker queue
  2487. # [16:31] * dom getting increasingly worried about qualifications associated with his name: inert, shadow, frozen, mutated... anyone working on tortured or mutilated dom?
  2488. # [16:32] <chaals> timeless: Developers void splitting content to save load time. If we had HTTP2 that solved that issue, would it be better.
  2489. # [16:32] <timeless> q+ rafaelw
  2490. # [16:32] * Zakim sees pbakaus, sicking, jaubourg, rafaelw on the speaker queue
  2491. # [16:32] <timeless> ack pbakaus
  2492. # [16:32] * Zakim sees sicking, jaubourg, rafaelw on the speaker queue
  2493. # [16:32] <timeless> pbakaus: we can't live with a solution that requires XHR
  2494. # [16:32] <timeless> ... the games we're building require complete inlining
  2495. # [16:32] <timeless> ... to the extent of a single request
  2496. # [16:32] <timeless> ... on mobile
  2497. # [16:33] * dglazkov wants to ask question that mjs asked him
  2498. # [16:33] <timeless> ack sicking
  2499. # [16:33] * Zakim sees jaubourg, rafaelw on the speaker queue
  2500. # [16:33] <timeless> q+ to ask about <script> v. <script src>
  2501. # [16:33] * Zakim sees jaubourg, rafaelw, timeless on the speaker queue
  2502. # [16:33] <mjs> q+ dglazkov
  2503. # [16:33] * Zakim sees jaubourg, rafaelw, timeless, dglazkov on the speaker queue
  2504. # [16:33] <hsivonen> q+
  2505. # [16:33] * Zakim sees jaubourg, rafaelw, timeless, dglazkov, hsivonen on the speaker queue
  2506. # [16:33] <timeless> sicking: it seems provable that people can use external
  2507. # [16:33] <timeless> ... but they use inline hacks
  2508. # [16:33] <darobin> +1 to jonas
  2509. # [16:33] <timeless> ... we might as well not do anything at all if that's the solution we're advocating
  2510. # [16:33] <timeless> ack jaubourg
  2511. # [16:33] * Zakim sees rafaelw, timeless, dglazkov, hsivonen on the speaker queue
  2512. # [16:34] <timeless> jaubourg: it seems like a tooling issue
  2513. # [16:34] <timeless> ... consider <script>
  2514. # [16:34] <timeless> ... you have tools to handle dependencies
  2515. # [16:34] <timeless> ... in development you can external resources
  2516. # [16:34] <sicking> q+
  2517. # [16:34] * Zakim sees rafaelw, timeless, dglazkov, hsivonen, sicking on the speaker queue
  2518. # [16:34] <timeless> ... in production you inline scripts to a single file
  2519. # [16:34] <timeless> ... if you had a tool that could do the concatentation
  2520. # [16:34] <pbakaus> +q
  2521. # [16:34] * Zakim sees rafaelw, timeless, dglazkov, hsivonen, sicking, pbakaus on the speaker queue
  2522. # [16:34] <timeless> ... if you had a script to fetch external/do inline
  2523. # [16:35] <timeless> s/+q/q+/G
  2524. # [16:35] <timeless> ack rafaelw
  2525. # [16:35] * Zakim sees timeless, dglazkov, hsivonen, sicking, pbakaus on the speaker queue
  2526. # [16:35] <timeless> rafaelw: if we had HTTP2, would that address the external resource latency issue
  2527. # [16:35] <timeless> ... i'm not sure the status of HTTP2
  2528. # [16:35] <timeless> ... if external latency wasn't a problem, then would it not be a problem
  2529. # [16:35] <timeless> mjs: what's the problem w/ <script type=random-mime-type>
  2530. # [16:36] <timeless> rafaelw: script tokenization stops when it sees </script>
  2531. # [16:36] <timeless> ... which means you can't have recursive templates
  2532. # [16:36] <timeless> ... to embed a <script> in your template
  2533. # [16:36] <timeless> ... they break the script into two tokens
  2534. # [16:36] <timeless> ... hitting </script> in the script token ends the script token
  2535. # [16:37] <timeless> mjs: with some small amount of escaping, you could address that
  2536. # [16:37] * Joins: ericu (~ericu@public.cloak)
  2537. # [16:37] <timeless> timeless: we have today <\/script>
  2538. # [16:37] <timeless> rafaelw: you're asking if we can stick with what we have
  2539. # [16:37] <timeless> ... slightlyoff mentioned it's painful
  2540. # [16:37] <timeless> mjs: is the pain-point lack of built in
  2541. # [16:38] <slightlyoff> ...and the frameworks vendors agree
  2542. # [16:38] * Joins: tpacbot (~nodebot@public.cloak)
  2543. # [16:38] <timeless> ... or is it the escaping
  2544. # [16:38] <timeless> mjs: i believe that having to roll their own templating
  2545. # [16:38] <timeless> ... reguardless of the syntax
  2546. # [16:38] <chaals> ?
  2547. # [16:38] <chaals> q?
  2548. # [16:38] * Joins: kotakagi (~Koichi_Takagi_KDDI@public.cloak)
  2549. # [16:38] * Zakim sees timeless, dglazkov, hsivonen, sicking, pbakaus on the speaker queue
  2550. # [16:38] <timeless> ... but if we had a defined script type
  2551. # [16:38] <timeless> ... would just the need to escape </script> be such a pain point?
  2552. # [16:38] <timeless> ... i'm skeptical
  2553. # [16:39] <timeless> rafaelw: my sense is it's pretty painful
  2554. # [16:39] <timeless> ... i'd let yehuda katz and mishko (angular) speak for themselves
  2555. # [16:39] * Lachy wonders how typing <\/script> is painful at all.
  2556. # [16:39] <timeless> Zakim, close queue
  2557. # [16:39] <Zakim> ok, timeless, the speaker queue is closed
  2558. # [16:39] * dglazkov it's painful when you _don't_ type it
  2559. # [16:39] <timeless> ack me
  2560. # [16:39] <Zakim> timeless, you wanted to ask about <script> v. <script src>
  2561. # [16:39] * Zakim sees dglazkov, hsivonen, sicking, pbakaus on the speaker queue
  2562. # [16:39] <slightlyoff> Lachy: wait, what?
  2563. # [16:39] <slightlyoff> are you actually kidding?
  2564. # [16:39] * Joins: nkic (~nkikkawa@public.cloak)
  2565. # [16:39] <slightlyoff> I think you're trolling
  2566. # [16:40] * Joins: jcverdie_ (~jcverdie@public.cloak)
  2567. # [16:40] <timeless> timeless: <script> was inline first
  2568. # [16:40] <Lachy> slightlyoff, no. It's one little extra character that authors would have to type. How is it hard? It's already needed when doing things like document.write("<script …><\/script>");
  2569. # [16:40] <timeless> ... and <script src> was added later
  2570. # [16:40] * SimonPieters guesses it'd be a bit painful with more levels of nesting; <script> <script> <script> <\\\/script> <\/script> </script>
  2571. # [16:40] <timeless> ... but i think that 80-95% is now <script src>
  2572. # [16:40] <MikeSmith> s/mishko/Miško Hevery/
  2573. # [16:41] <timeless> dglazkov: pending a polyfill for feature
  2574. # [16:41] <mjs> SimonPieters: you could probably design it so only a single level of escaping is needed regardless of nesting
  2575. # [16:41] <annevk> <\/script> is shorter than </template> :p
  2576. # [16:41] <timeless> ... angular/Ember.js
  2577. # [16:41] * annevk is trolling
  2578. # [16:41] * ArtB waves to EricU - do you have the bridge connection info? Jonas needs to leave @ X:00 so we need to start promptly @ now:45
  2579. # [16:41] <timeless> ... they have a specific UC
  2580. # [16:41] <slightlyoff> timeless: I think you're also wrong about this. Most script tags are ads, and they tend to marry inline/out-of-band <script> elements = )
  2581. # [16:41] <timeless> ... it's hard to do one that's universal
  2582. # [16:41] * ArtB looks for Arun ...
  2583. # [16:41] * Quits: jeff (jeff@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  2584. # [16:41] <ericu> artb I'm about to call in.
  2585. # [16:41] <timeless> ... polyfills are never 100% faithful
  2586. # [16:42] <mjs> SimonPieters: the escaping is only needed to be compatible with legacy <script> parsing, not fundamentally for a hypothetical <script type=template>
  2587. # [16:42] <timeless> ... we have views of breaking compat as the general
  2588. # [16:42] <timeless> ... i know rafaelw studied this and there's very little that actually changes
  2589. # [16:42] <timeless> ... most still works
  2590. # [16:42] * SimonPieters mjs: true
  2591. # [16:42] <Zakim> + +1.415.865.aabb
  2592. # [16:42] <chaals> q?
  2593. # [16:42] * Zakim sees dglazkov, hsivonen, sicking, pbakaus on the speaker queue
  2594. # [16:43] <ericu> artb, I can hear you now.
  2595. # [16:43] <chaals> ack dglazkov
  2596. # [16:43] * Zakim sees hsivonen, sicking, pbakaus on the speaker queue
  2597. # [16:43] <annevk> mjs: change end tag parsing based on an attribute value? o_O
  2598. # [16:43] <timeless> ... throw someone if they suggest XHR agian
  2599. # [16:43] <timeless> s/agian/again/
  2600. # [16:43] <timeless> ... we could solve everything with escaping
  2601. # [16:43] <mjs> annevk: not sure how that follows?
  2602. # [16:43] * Joins: Norbert (~standards@public.cloak)
  2603. # [16:43] <timeless> ... but people don't always remember to escape
  2604. # [16:43] <pbakaus> +1
  2605. # [16:43] <aklein> mjs: I think annevk is asking how the parser finds the end-tag in <script type=template> parsing
  2606. # [16:44] <mjs> annevk: <script type=template><script type=template><script type=template><\/script><\/script></script>
  2607. # [16:44] <timeless> chaals: calling you on this, it's a sales pitch
  2608. # [16:44] <annevk> mjs: right that uses the escaping
  2609. # [16:44] <mjs> annevk: nothing about that needs to change existing parsing based on an attribute
  2610. # [16:44] <chaals> ack hsi
  2611. # [16:44] * Zakim sees sicking, pbakaus on the speaker queue
  2612. # [16:44] <timeless> hsivonen: people who write libraries
  2613. # [16:44] <mjs> annevk: yeah but you don't need to double-escape the innermost one
  2614. # [16:44] <mjs> annevk: that
  2615. # [16:44] <timeless> ... if this feature was available
  2616. # [16:44] <annevk> mjs: oh
  2617. # [16:44] <mjs> that is all I meant
  2618. # [16:44] <timeless> ... would they stop using <script>?
  2619. # [16:44] <annevk> k
  2620. # [16:45] <timeless> ... i have the bad feeling that balancing the new feature / availability
  2621. # [16:45] <timeless> ... the compat tends to win over inconvenience
  2622. # [16:45] <JonathanJ> rrsagent, draft minutes
  2623. # [16:45] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-minutes.html JonathanJ
  2624. # [16:45] * hallvord nods
  2625. # [16:45] <MikeSmith> q?
  2626. # [16:45] * Zakim sees sicking, pbakaus on the speaker queue
  2627. # [16:45] <timeless> ... do we believe that yehuda/ Miško would break compat
  2628. # [16:45] <timeless> ack SimonPieters
  2629. # [16:45] * Zakim sees sicking, pbakaus on the speaker queue
  2630. # [16:45] <MikeSmith> ack sicking
  2631. # [16:45] * Zakim sees pbakaus on the speaker queue
  2632. # [16:45] <timeless> ack sicking
  2633. # [16:45] * Zakim sees pbakaus on the speaker queue
  2634. # [16:45] <timeless> sicking: re: HTTP2, it only solves additional overhead
  2635. # [16:46] * hiro is now known as hiro_away
  2636. # [16:46] <timeless> ... for requests
  2637. # [16:46] * Quits: jcverdie_ (~jcverdie@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  2638. # [16:46] <mjs> sicking, it can solve extra round trip latency b/c it lets the server push resources it thinks are needed
  2639. # [16:46] <slightlyoff> hsivonen: this is absolutely the wrong question. Holding a feature that can help the future out to the idea that some vendor will adopt it *immediately* is standards judo of the worst sort.
  2640. # [16:46] <timeless> ack pbakaus
  2641. # [16:46] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2642. # [16:46] <timeless> pbakaus: almost everything can be solved in terms of tooling
  2643. # [16:46] <morrita> maybe <template> could be just an alias of <script> to avoid escaping?
  2644. # [16:46] <timeless> ... building tools is extremely hard
  2645. # [16:47] <timeless> ... we did it
  2646. # [16:47] <slightlyoff> making the world safe for new features need not be held up by current practice
  2647. # [16:47] <timeless> ... but not everyone can
  2648. # [16:47] * Quits: tmpsantos (~tmpsantos@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
  2649. # [16:47] <timeless> ... we want standards everyone can use
  2650. # [16:47] <timeless> chaals: spend some time tonight w/ beer to talk about this w/ someone who doesn't agree
  2651. # [16:47] <ArtB> zakim, who is here?
  2652. # [16:47] <Zakim> On the phone I see Rhone_3, Yves, +1.650.214.aaaa, +1.415.865.aabb
  2653. # [16:47] <Zakim> On IRC I see Norbert, nkic, kotakagi, tpacbot, ericu, kensaku, divya, Hidetoshi, Dewa, JonathanJ, Wonsuk, JY, byungjung, sicking, a1zu, jfmoy, annevk, darobin, jaubourg, sgodard,
  2654. # [16:47] <Zakim> ... Yongrok, yamaday, spoussa, tokamoto, rotsuya, smaug, tomoyuki
  2655. # [16:47] <timeless> ... the market will determine what's used
  2656. # [16:47] <timeless> Zakim, where is +1650
  2657. # [16:47] <Zakim> timeless, I do not see a party named 'where'. If you meant to ask a question you need to add '?'
  2658. # [16:48] <jaubourg> pbakaus: I was talking about tooling to transform tags that link to external resources into a tag with content inline. I know <template> is needed. I was just telling that people are inlining right now because tooling is hard, liike you said
  2659. # [16:48] <timeless> Zakim, where is +1415?
  2660. # [16:48] <Zakim> North American dialing code 1.415 is California
  2661. # [16:48] <timeless> Zakim, where is +1650?
  2662. # [16:48] <Zakim> North American dialing code 1.650 is California
  2663. # [16:48] <timeless> q?
  2664. # [16:48] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2665. # [16:48] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  2666. # [16:48] <timeless> Zakim, open the queue
  2667. # [16:48] <Zakim> ok, timeless, the speaker queue is open
  2668. # [16:48] <sicking> mjs: the server needs to know about it to solve the roundtrip issue. I think it's also the case that the way it works is that the server can "pre recommend" that the client downloads a resource, but the client stil has to request it. But I'm not sure that that works
  2669. # [16:48] <ArtB> zakim, aabb is EricU
  2670. # [16:48] <Zakim> +EricU; got it
  2671. # [16:48] <timeless> timeless: i'm pretty sure that the server can actually send the resource too instead of just recommending it
  2672. # [16:48] <timeless> topic: File * APIs
  2673. # [16:48] <Zakim> - +1.650.214.aaaa
  2674. # [16:49] * Parts: jfmoy (~jfmoy@public.cloak) (jfmoy)
  2675. # [16:49] <timeless> Zakim, who is on the call?
  2676. # [16:49] <Zakim> On the phone I see Rhone_3, Yves, EricU
  2677. # [16:49] <timeless> ericu: about the file system api
  2678. # [16:49] <mjs> sicking, I suppose it could change but I don't believe that's how it works in the current SPDY protocol http://dev.chromium.org/spdy/spdy-protocol/spdy-protocol-draft3#TOC-3.3-Server-Push-Transactions
  2679. # [16:49] <timeless> ... there's been discussion about note tracking it
  2680. # [16:49] <timeless> ... two questions
  2681. # [16:49] <chaals> zakim, open the queue
  2682. # [16:49] <Zakim> ok, chaals, the speaker queue is open
  2683. # [16:49] <timeless> ... is there a quorum of browser vendors likely to implement at all
  2684. # [16:49] <timeless> ... if not, then note track
  2685. # [16:49] <timeless> .. if so, we should keep talking
  2686. # [16:50] <timeless> ... if there's interest
  2687. # [16:50] * Joins: arunranga (~arunranga@public.cloak)
  2688. # [16:50] * hiro_away is now known as hiro
  2689. # [16:50] <hallvord> slightlyoff: more features = more complexity, more features = less back-compat - this is always a tradeoff. So we need to look carefully at how much value new features provide.
  2690. # [16:50] <timeless> ... should we move forward, throw away + start over w/ sicking / mjs's proposals
  2691. # [16:50] <sicking> q+
  2692. # [16:50] * Zakim sees sicking on the speaker queue
  2693. # [16:50] <timeless> ... or try to evolve current work to something near proposal
  2694. # [16:50] <mjs> q+
  2695. # [16:50] * Zakim sees sicking, mjs on the speaker queue
  2696. # [16:50] <slightlyoff> hallvord: I think that's just absolutely the wrong perspective: folks are building this stuff the hard, slow, expensive way
  2697. # [16:50] <timeless> adrianba: we'll never say never
  2698. # [16:50] <timeless> ... but right now we don't see the file system api as a high priority
  2699. # [16:50] <timeless> ... we focused on indexeddb
  2700. # [16:50] <jgraham> q+
  2701. # [16:50] * Zakim sees sicking, mjs, jgraham on the speaker queue
  2702. # [16:51] <timeless> ... making sure you can store blob data there
  2703. # [16:51] <hsivonen> sicking: I believe SPDY allows a response before request, so the server could send *everything* over when the initial request has been made
  2704. # [16:51] <timeless> ... right now, making sure that's an adequate solution
  2705. # [16:51] * Joins: kinuko (~kinuko@public.cloak)
  2706. # [16:51] <timeless> timeless: what hsivonen said
  2707. # [16:51] <Zakim> + +1.415.294.aacc
  2708. # [16:51] <timeless> ericu: could a file system api provide photos directory access?
  2709. # [16:51] <timeless> adrianba: not from the browser
  2710. # [16:51] <arunranga> Zakim, aacc is arunranga
  2711. # [16:51] <Zakim> +arunranga; got it
  2712. # [16:51] <timeless> chaals: anyone want to speak in favor of it?
  2713. # [16:52] * darobin whispers SysApps
  2714. # [16:52] <timeless> bryan: this is the file system directory apis?
  2715. # [16:52] <sicking> hsivonen: mjs: timeless: Ok, appears I was wrong and "full" server push is supported.
  2716. # [16:52] * Joins: SteveH (~SteveH@public.cloak)
  2717. # [16:52] <timeless> ericu: right, directory api + writer
  2718. # [16:52] <timeless> bryan: writer w/o reading is useless
  2719. # [16:52] <timeless> bryan: browsers will need to be able to store hundreds of files and gb's of data
  2720. # [16:52] <hallvord> slightlyoff: you're saying we should never be asking "how hard now? / how much easier tomorrow?" for a new feature? You see no trade-offs to be made at all? ;-)
  2721. # [16:53] <chaals> ack sick
  2722. # [16:53] * Zakim sees mjs, jgraham on the speaker queue
  2723. # [16:53] <timeless> sicking: simple answer is indexeddb supports any amount/number of files
  2724. # [16:53] <adrianba> s/not from the browser/not from the browser, at least in the short term/
  2725. # [16:53] * chaals asks robin to speak instead of whisper
  2726. # [16:53] <timeless> ... any file stored in indexeddb in firefox today
  2727. # [16:53] <timeless> ... is stored as an actual file
  2728. # [16:53] <slightlyoff> hallvord: trying to engagine you in PM but you're not responding there. Are you auth'd?
  2729. # [16:53] <timeless> ... we haven't optimized for all cases yet, but that's something we'll work on
  2730. # [16:53] <jgraham> q-
  2731. # [16:53] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
  2732. # [16:53] * Joins: jeff (jeff@public.cloak)
  2733. # [16:54] <pbakaus> +q
  2734. # [16:54] * Zakim sees mjs, pbakaus on the speaker queue
  2735. # [16:54] <timeless> sicking: i don't believe it's possible to evolve the current file system proposal from google into something like mjs/my proposal
  2736. # [16:54] <timeless> ... i like mjs's proposal
  2737. # [16:54] <timeless> ... it's possible to evolve that proposal
  2738. # [16:54] * darobin chaals: I'm not on this group, I've proposed that before, I don't necessary want to take a stand on it — it's just an option
  2739. # [16:54] <timeless> ... mozilla's proposal supports doing small writes to files
  2740. # [16:54] <timeless> ... mjs asked if there's UCs for that
  2741. # [16:54] <timeless> ... we should provide use cases for that, i believe they exist
  2742. # [16:55] <timeless> ... there were other proposals which allowed incremental writing
  2743. # [16:55] <timeless> ... mozilla's proposal has atomic writing
  2744. # [16:55] <timeless> ... unix's doesn't have this
  2745. # [16:55] <timeless> ... ms got this right
  2746. # [16:55] * Joins: jwheare (~uid2@public.cloak)
  2747. # [16:55] * Parts: SteveH (~SteveH@public.cloak) (SteveH)
  2748. # [16:55] <timeless> ... we don't have good locking mechanisms on the web
  2749. # [16:55] <timeless> ... i'd like something with the same capabilities as mozilla's
  2750. # [16:55] <MikeSmith> q?
  2751. # [16:55] * Zakim sees mjs, pbakaus on the speaker queue
  2752. # [16:55] <ericu> q+ ericu
  2753. # [16:55] * Zakim sees mjs, pbakaus, ericu on the speaker queue
  2754. # [16:55] <timeless> ... but not tied to that api
  2755. # [16:56] <timeless> mjs: my proposal supports incremental writing
  2756. # [16:56] <MikeSmith> ack mjs
  2757. # [16:56] * Zakim sees pbakaus, ericu on the speaker queue
  2758. # [16:56] <timeless> ... but it could be simplified if it wasn't needed
  2759. # [16:56] <timeless> mjs: interest in file system apis in general
  2760. # [16:56] <timeless> ... my own opinion
  2761. # [16:56] <timeless> ... not necessarily apple's
  2762. # [16:56] * Joins: jcverdie (~jcverdie@public.cloak)
  2763. # [16:56] <timeless> ... we've added too damn many storage apis to the web platform
  2764. # [16:56] <timeless> ... i'd much prefer to see
  2765. # [16:56] <timeless> ... if there's a short list of features not available to indexeddb
  2766. # [16:56] <timeless> ... let's add them there
  2767. # [16:57] <timeless> ... if there's a reason that's impossible
  2768. # [16:57] <timeless> .. let's try to create something minimal
  2769. # [16:57] <timeless> s/../.../
  2770. # [16:57] <timeless> ... it's much easier to take something too simple and add
  2771. # [16:57] <timeless> ... than to subtract
  2772. # [16:57] <SimonPieters> I agree with mjs, FTR
  2773. # [16:57] <MikeSmith> ack pbakaus
  2774. # [16:57] * Zakim sees ericu on the speaker queue
  2775. # [16:57] <timeless> pbakaus: we're fine w/ either approach
  2776. # [16:57] <chaals> ak pb
  2777. # [16:57] <timeless> ... i can't w/ indexedb
  2778. # [16:57] <timeless> ... is local file protocol handlers
  2779. # [16:57] <sicking> q+
  2780. # [16:57] * Zakim sees ericu, sicking on the speaker queue
  2781. # [16:58] <mjs> q+
  2782. # [16:58] * Zakim sees ericu, sicking, mjs on the speaker queue
  2783. # [16:58] <timeless> ... to be able to use a file in <script src>/<style src>
  2784. # [16:58] <timeless> ericu: i think most of what i had in mind is covered
  2785. # [16:58] <timeless> ack ericu
  2786. # [16:58] * Zakim sees sicking, mjs on the speaker queue
  2787. # [16:58] <timeless> ericu: you can store large files in indexeddb
  2788. # [16:58] <timeless> ... chrome doesn't have blobs yet, but we will
  2789. # [16:58] <timeless> ... large mutable data in indexeddb isn't appropriate
  2790. # [16:58] <timeless> ... transactions on gb's of data is painful
  2791. # [16:58] <timeless> ... sicking has a proposal
  2792. # [16:59] <timeless> ... i don't see an efficient way to deal w/ large mutable blobs in indexeddb
  2793. # [16:59] <timeless> ... a file system api is the only proposal that addresses that
  2794. # [16:59] <timeless> ack sicking
  2795. # [16:59] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
  2796. # [16:59] <timeless> sicking: indexeddb doesn't support large mutable files
  2797. # [16:59] <timeless> ... i have a proposal for that -- not super clean, but it definitely works
  2798. # [16:59] <timeless> ... the other is file system protocol handler
  2799. # [16:59] <timeless> ... i haven't thought of a clean way to do it
  2800. # [17:00] <timeless> ... but it's technically possible
  2801. # [17:00] <timeless> ... something we can explore
  2802. # [17:00] <timeless> ... if we add this to indexeddb, it won't be super clean
  2803. # [17:00] <timeless> ... but it's something we can explore
  2804. # [17:00] <timeless> mjs: externally referenceable blobs as a feature
  2805. # [17:00] <timeless> ... then we should put it into indexeddb
  2806. # [17:00] <MikeSmith> q?
  2807. # [17:00] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
  2808. # [17:00] <MikeSmith> ack mjs
  2809. # [17:01] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2810. # [17:01] <bryan> If we have the ability to layer a virtual filesystem capability on IndexedDB via JavaScript, at least for non-mutable large blobs, at least that provides a means to develop implementations for the media gallery and offline content storage use cases, and would be a step in the right direction.
  2811. # [17:01] <timeless> ... and large mutable blobs
  2812. # [17:01] <timeless> ... likewise
  2813. # [17:01] * Joins: plh (plehegar@public.cloak)
  2814. # [17:01] <timeless> chaals: how many file system hands in webapps?
  2815. # [17:01] * arunranga waves
  2816. # [17:02] <timeless> ... darobin, pbakaus, jaubourg, spoussa
  2817. # [17:02] * Quits: dnkim (~dnkim@public.irc.w3.org) ("Page closed")
  2818. # [17:02] <timeless> ... maybe half a dozen people here
  2819. # [17:02] * darobin hi arunranga!
  2820. # [17:02] <timeless> ... eric, if you're prepared to keep editing, i'm not prepared to throw you on note
  2821. # [17:02] <slightlyoff> OH HAI arunranga
  2822. # [17:03] * arunranga oh hai everyone
  2823. # [17:03] <timeless> chaals: who's interested in the current file spec?
  2824. # [17:03] <timeless> ... ericu, do you want to vote?
  2825. # [17:03] <odinho_> s/OH HAI arunranga//
  2826. # [17:03] <timeless> chaals: i'd like to work on sicking 's suggestions (locking), and possibly strip it down
  2827. # [17:03] <bryan> I would still prefer the File* APIs remain REC track until the IndexedDB alternative is proven feasible through testing of available implementations.
  2828. # [17:03] <timeless> s/chaals/ericu/
  2829. # [17:03] <timeless> pbakaus: i'd like to say...
  2830. # [17:03] <timeless> ... indexeddb or filesystem
  2831. # [17:03] <timeless> ... the abstract concept of working with files
  2832. # [17:03] <timeless> ... is good
  2833. # [17:04] <timeless> ... if we can do that in indexeddb as well, then i'm totally happy
  2834. # [17:04] <ericu> timeless, I talked about stripping down the current API towards the Mozilla proposal, not strip down Mozilla's.
  2835. # [17:04] <timeless> chaals: it sounds like we should suggest that you make a file system spec
  2836. # [17:04] * Quits: npdoty (npdoty@public.cloak)
  2837. # [17:04] * ArtB arunranga - are you on the phone?
  2838. # [17:04] * arunranga yes hi ArtB, I'm on the phone
  2839. # [17:04] <timeless> chaals: should we drop the work item, and just do something on top of indexeddb
  2840. # [17:05] * Quits: JonathanJ (~hollobit@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  2841. # [17:05] <timeless> timeless: it seems like the simplest thing is a spec for making indexeddb referencable objects from uri's for use in script-src/style-src
  2842. # [17:05] * arunranga wonders where sicking is going.
  2843. # [17:05] <timeless> sicking: it seems like the support can't be lower
  2844. # [17:06] <timeless> ... i'm not sure about the official cut off is
  2845. # [17:06] <timeless> chaals: i'm not reading any support for the spec as is
  2846. # [17:06] <timeless> chaals: i'm not seeing any support for the spec as is
  2847. # [17:06] * ArtB arunranga http://www.w3.org/2012/10/TPAC/meetup-Lyon.html
  2848. # [17:06] * Quits: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  2849. # [17:07] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@public.cloak) (sicking)
  2850. # [17:07] <timeless> pbakaus: many people agree on the feature spec
  2851. # [17:07] <timeless> ... is it one spec that covers everything
  2852. # [17:07] <timeless> ... that covers db and stuff
  2853. # [17:07] <timeless> ... or multiple specs
  2854. # [17:07] * arunranga yes, not "File API" but "FileSystem…"
  2855. # [17:07] <timeless> chaals: i don't see the consensus to just stop work on that
  2856. # [17:07] * Parts: jwheare (~uid2@public.cloak)
  2857. # [17:08] <timeless> ... that'd be a thing via a CfC
  2858. # [17:08] <timeless> mjs: one option is to tombstone the current draft
  2859. # [17:08] <timeless> ... and then give people the opportunity to offer a counter proposal
  2860. # [17:08] <timeless> ... which would probably be a delete and replace
  2861. # [17:08] <bryan> q+
  2862. # [17:08] * Zakim sees bryan on the speaker queue
  2863. # [17:08] <timeless> ... i'm not sure if ericu is willing to do that
  2864. # [17:08] <timeless> ericu: obviously there's no support for the current draft
  2865. # [17:09] * Quits: divya (~Adium@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  2866. # [17:09] <timeless> ... i'm interested in iterating the current draft to what sicking is suggesting
  2867. # [17:09] <timeless> ... sounds like sicking isn't expecting me to iterate far enough close to his draft
  2868. # [17:09] <timeless> sicking: it seems implausible that it can be iterated
  2869. # [17:10] <timeless> ... it seems better with a replace than a modify
  2870. # [17:10] * Quits: hiro (hiro@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  2871. # [17:10] <MikeSmith> q?
  2872. # [17:10] * Zakim sees bryan on the speaker queue
  2873. # [17:10] <timeless> bryan: with indexeddb as i could with filesystem
  2874. # [17:10] * Quits: Yongrok (~Yongrok@public.irc.w3.org) ("Page closed")
  2875. # [17:10] <timeless> ... would apps with different origins have access to the same indexeddb?
  2876. # [17:10] <timeless> chaals: file systems can be shared
  2877. # [17:11] * Quits: spoussa (~Adium@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  2878. # [17:11] <timeless> ... maybe we should keep the idea alive?
  2879. # [17:11] <timeless> jgraham: my view is similar to mjs's view
  2880. # [17:11] <timeless> ... we've invented a lot of storage apis
  2881. # [17:11] <timeless> ... so far they've been really bad
  2882. # [17:11] * Joins: hiro (hiro@public.cloak)
  2883. # [17:11] <timeless> ... let's work on the one we have that we haven't proven to be really bad
  2884. # [17:11] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@public.cloak) ("is sleepy")
  2885. # [17:11] <timeless> ... before we spec a new one
  2886. # [17:11] <timeless> ... let's let authors build on top of indexeddb
  2887. # [17:11] <timeless> ... and let them build interfaces
  2888. # [17:11] <timeless> ... and see if we can steal their api/concepts
  2889. # [17:12] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@public.cloak)
  2890. # [17:12] <timeless> chaals: you're too late
  2891. # [17:12] <timeless> ... we have started specing file system apis
  2892. # [17:12] <ericu> q+ ericu
  2893. # [17:12] * Zakim sees bryan, ericu on the speaker queue
  2894. # [17:12] <timeless> ... we even specified them in the 70s
  2895. # [17:12] <timeless> paulc: some of us are older than...
  2896. # [17:12] <MikeSmith> ack bryan
  2897. # [17:12] * Zakim sees ericu on the speaker queue
  2898. # [17:12] <timeless> [ laughter ]
  2899. # [17:12] <timeless> chaals: adding 47 apis just because we can
  2900. # [17:12] <timeless> timeless: that's what sysapps is for
  2901. # [17:13] <timeless> jgraham: it's about creating another legacy which is bad
  2902. # [17:13] <timeless> ... we've had 3 different proposals
  2903. # [17:13] <timeless> ... which have had varying levels of support
  2904. # [17:13] <timeless> ... unless there's something really compelling that we had to do yesterday
  2905. # [17:13] <timeless> ... i don't think there is
  2906. # [17:13] * Quits: Norbert (~standards@public.cloak) (Norbert)
  2907. # [17:13] <timeless> chaals: js libraries don't have access to the file system
  2908. # [17:14] <timeless> jgraham: but they will make apis on top of indexeddb to pretend to be a file
  2909. # [17:14] * Quits: jcverdie (~jcverdie@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  2910. # [17:14] * ArtB what exactly is SysApps thinking re their "File System" API?
  2911. # [17:14] <timeless> timeless: i suspect we could see apps written using DnD support + indexeddb to emulate the file system
  2912. # [17:14] <bryan> does someone have links to any javascript-based indexedDB filesystems that anyone is currently playing with? If it's a good and feasible idea, then surely someone is trying to do it.
  2913. # [17:15] <timeless> pbakaus: let's keep the feature set of the current file system
  2914. # [17:15] <timeless> slightlyoff: we should stop iterating
  2915. # [17:15] <timeless> ... because we got it wrong last time
  2916. # [17:15] <bryan> i can't find anything on the web of a similar nature using indexeddb.
  2917. # [17:15] <timeless> ... seems like a bad argument
  2918. # [17:15] <timeless> jgraham: that's not the argument i was making
  2919. # [17:15] * Joins: jcverdie (~jcverdie@public.cloak)
  2920. # [17:15] <timeless> ... once we do something, it's fixed in stone
  2921. # [17:15] <timeless> ... it's very hard to change
  2922. # [17:16] <timeless> ... when a js library makes something
  2923. # [17:16] <timeless> ... it can make it look like a file
  2924. # [17:16] <timeless> ... and design things
  2925. # [17:16] <slightlyoff> timeless: that's not what I said
  2926. # [17:16] <slightlyoff> I said that we *shouldn't* stop iterating
  2927. # [17:17] <slightlyoff> also, I object that there is equivalence between what JS libraries will do with an API vs. exposing a new fundamental capability
  2928. # [17:17] <timeless> chaals: how many people think we should keep working on the current file system api?
  2929. # [17:17] <slightlyoff> they're different orders or magnitude in change
  2930. # [17:18] <timeless> [ 12 ]
  2931. # [17:18] <timeless> chaals: how many people think we should ask ericu to stop working, and then wait for a new editor?
  2932. # [17:18] * Quits: a1zu (~androirc@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  2933. # [17:18] * Quits: kotakagi (~Koichi_Takagi_KDDI@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  2934. # [17:19] <timeless> [ around 12 ]
  2935. # [17:19] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@public.cloak) (MikeSmith)
  2936. # [17:19] <timeless> chaals: ericu, you're welcome to keep working on this
  2937. # [17:19] <timeless> ... if we get someone to edit another proposal
  2938. # [17:19] <timeless> ... put the two up
  2939. # [17:19] <timeless> ... and ask the group to choose
  2940. # [17:19] <timeless> ... is that an outcome people would be happy with?
  2941. # [17:19] <timeless> [ 15 ]
  2942. # [17:20] * Yves is dropping off
  2943. # [17:20] <timeless> chaals: the number of people in the room change faster than the number of questions
  2944. # [17:20] <Zakim> -Yves
  2945. # [17:20] <timeless> shepazu: seems clear we want some sort of file system api
  2946. # [17:21] <timeless> timeless: you could create a competing one for yourself
  2947. # [17:21] <timeless> ArtB: arunranga is on the call
  2948. # [17:21] <timeless> topic: File Reader API
  2949. # [17:22] * Quits: jcverdie (~jcverdie@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  2950. # [17:22] <timeless> chaals: darobin was going to ship this in 2006
  2951. # [17:22] <timeless> arunranga: fileapi is done
  2952. # [17:22] <timeless> ... but there's a question of auto-revoke
  2953. # [17:22] <timeless> ... auto-revoke of Blob URIs is a question
  2954. # [17:23] <timeless> ... there's a question where to put auto-revoke of Blob URIs with the HTML5 spec
  2955. # [17:23] <timeless> ... microtask checkpoints
  2956. # [17:23] <timeless> ... i think we're around the corner from it
  2957. # [17:24] <timeless> ... i think discussing it on the list makes sense
  2958. # [17:24] <adrianba> q+
  2959. # [17:24] * Zakim sees ericu, adrianba on the speaker queue
  2960. # [17:24] <timeless> chaals: so there's one outstanding issue
  2961. # [17:24] <timeless> q- ericu
  2962. # [17:24] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
  2963. # [17:25] * timeless ms2ger isn't on irc-w3 nor irc-mozilla
  2964. # [17:25] <timeless> arunranga: ms2ger wrote a nice test suite
  2965. # [17:25] <timeless> ArtB: anyone want to add something to the test suite?
  2966. # [17:25] <timeless> chaals: please?
  2967. # [17:25] <timeless> chaals: krisk just volunteered to add to the test suite
  2968. # [17:25] <timeless> ack adrianba
  2969. # [17:25] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2970. # [17:26] <timeless> adrianba: i wanted to mention one other issue
  2971. # [17:26] <timeless> ... events that fire for file reader
  2972. # [17:26] <timeless> ... file reader is designed to be reusable
  2973. # [17:26] <timeless> ... you can call read() on an instance
  2974. # [17:26] <timeless> ... and then call again() on that instance
  2975. # [17:26] <timeless> ... assuming one isn't pending
  2976. # [17:26] <timeless> ... there's discussion on the list about which events to fire
  2977. # [17:26] <jgraham> We might have more tests
  2978. # [17:27] <timeless> ... if you call read() during load/XXZ
  2979. # [17:27] <timeless> ... there's a question of what to do
  2980. # [17:27] <timeless> ... our proposal is to not fire load-end for the first() read if there's a second read() outstanding
  2981. # [17:27] <timeless> arunranga: the last i remember of that discussion
  2982. # [17:27] <timeless> ... we set it up so you couldn't call read() multiple times
  2983. # [17:27] <timeless> ... it would throw an exception
  2984. # [17:28] <timeless> ... if that isn't resolved adequately...
  2985. # [17:28] <timeless> adrianba: i thought that resolution was for if you tried to call read() while there's a second read()
  2986. # [17:28] * timeless can't follow it
  2987. # [17:29] * Quits: morrita (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  2988. # [17:29] <timeless> timeless: is this read() triggers load... loadend, and there's a chance of calling read() after the last load fired but before loadend ?
  2989. # [17:29] <timeless> pbakaus: maybe we could discuss archive reader tomorrow?
  2990. # [17:29] <timeless> chaals: toss it on the agenda wiki
  2991. # [17:30] * Quits: Arno (~Arnaud@public.cloak) ("")
  2992. # [17:30] * arunranga thanks everyone
  2993. # [17:30] <timeless> ... thank you very much
  2994. # [17:30] <timeless> ... thanks to timeless for scribing
  2995. # [17:30] <timeless> [ applause ]
  2996. # [17:30] <ericu> pbakaus I won't be on tomorrow, but any reason you can't do that in javascript?
  2997. # [17:30] * Quits: waynecarr (~86868b4a@public.cloak) ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client")
  2998. # [17:30] <timeless> chaals: we resume tomorrow @ 9 am
  2999. # [17:30] <pbakaus> uh – I think it's simply not fast
  3000. # [17:30] <Zakim> -EricU
  3001. # [17:30] <timeless> [ adjourned ]
  3002. # [17:30] * Quits: aizu (~aizu@public.irc.w3.org) ("Page closed")
  3003. # [17:30] * dglazkov is still somewhat mad at chaals for calling my passionate speech a sales pitch
  3004. # [17:30] * Quits: JY (~JY@public.irc.w3.org) ("Page closed")
  3005. # [17:30] * Parts: Hidetoshi (~yokota@public.cloak) (Hidetoshi)
  3006. # [17:30] * Parts: Jungkee (~Jungkee@public.irc.w3.org)
  3007. # [17:30] <Zakim> -arunranga
  3008. # [17:30] * Quits: Yune_ (~Yune@public.irc.w3.org) ("Page closed")
  3009. # [17:30] * Joins: trackbot (trackbot@public.cloak)
  3010. # [17:31] <ericu> pbakaus try it and see if it's too slow, use that as a proof of utility?
  3011. # [17:31] * Quits: MagnusOlsson (~MagnusOlsson@public.irc.w3.org) ("Page closed")
  3012. # [17:31] <timeless> trackbot end meeting
  3013. # [17:31] <pbakaus> ericu: to elaborate, a JS based solution is probably too slow for general purpose
  3014. # [17:31] <timeless> s/trackbot end meeting//
  3015. # [17:31] <timeless> trackbot, end meeting
  3016. # [17:31] * trackbot is ending a teleconference
  3017. # [17:31] <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
  3018. # [17:31] <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Rhone_3, Yves, +1.650.214.aaaa, +1.415.865.aabb, EricU, +1.415.294.aacc, arunranga
  3019. # [17:31] <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
  3020. # [17:31] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-minutes.html trackbot
  3021. # [17:31] <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
  3022. # [17:31] <RRSAgent> I see 9 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-actions.rdf :
  3023. # [17:31] <RRSAgent> ACTION: Charles start the process to move Widget Updates to Candidate Recommendation [1]
  3024. # [17:31] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-irc#T08-31-17
  3025. # [17:31] <RRSAgent> ACTION: Travis create an ED of DOM4 Events [2]
  3026. # [17:31] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-irc#T08-51-33
  3027. # [17:31] * Quits: bradee-oh (~bradee-oh@public.cloak) (bradee-oh)
  3028. # [17:31] * timeless you can definitely do archive reading in js
  3029. # [17:31] <RRSAgent> ACTION: Barstow work with Travis on a CfC for DOM3 Events Candidate [3]
  3030. # [17:31] <KenjiBX> passionate it was :-)
  3031. # [17:31] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-irc#T08-51-54
  3032. # [17:31] * timeless it's mostly a perf thing
  3033. # [17:31] <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow follow up with Kinuko Yasuda on status and plan for Quota Management API [4]
  3034. # [17:31] * Quits: rotsuya (~rotsuya@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  3035. # [17:31] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-irc#T08-57-32
  3036. # [17:31] <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow work with Jong-Heun Lee to start a RfR Web Storage test suite [5]
  3037. # [17:31] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-irc#T09-07-39
  3038. # [17:31] <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow work with PLH on an announcement seeking IRC fragments [6]
  3039. # [17:31] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-irc#T11-08-32-1
  3040. # [17:31] <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow start a Call for Review for Web IDL test plan on public-script-coord [7]
  3041. # [17:31] * Quits: shan (~shan@public.irc.w3.org) ("Page closed")
  3042. # [17:31] * Quits: ericu (~ericu@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
  3043. # [17:31] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-irc#T11-10-42
  3044. # [17:32] <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow work with Opera Websocket tester(s) on a Request for Review of their web socket tests [8]
  3045. # [17:32] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-irc#T11-21-58
  3046. # [17:32] * Joins: rotsuya (~rotsuya@public.cloak)
  3047. # [17:32] <RRSAgent> ACTION: rafael provide feedback on Push API [9]
  3048. # [17:32] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-irc#T14-06-32
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  3075. # [17:41] <pbakaus> ArtB: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=772434
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  3083. # [17:46] <dglazkov> timeless: I just realized I didn't provide any links in my spec update. Need them?
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  3134. # [18:53] * hiro_away is now known as hiro
  3135. # [18:56] * Joins: dveditz (~dveditz@public.cloak)
  3136. # [19:00] * Joins: Norbert (~standards@public.cloak)
  3137. # [19:03] * Quits: trackbot (trackbot@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  3138. # [19:03] * Joins: trackbot (trackbot@public.cloak)
  3139. # [19:04] * hiro is now known as hiro_away
  3140. # [19:08] <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, Rhone_3, in IA_WebApps()4:00AM
  3141. # [19:08] <Zakim> IA_WebApps()4:00AM has ended
  3142. # [19:08] <Zakim> Attendees were Rhone_3, Yves, +1.650.214.aaaa, +1.415.865.aabb, EricU, +1.415.294.aacc, arunranga
  3143. # [19:08] * Quits: glenn (~gadams@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  3144. # [19:13] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@public.cloak)
  3145. # [19:22] * Joins: smaug (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
  3146. # [19:27] * Quits: smaug (~chatzilla@public.cloak) ("Reconnecting…")
  3147. # [19:27] * Joins: smaug (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
  3148. # [19:45] * Quits: Norbert (~standards@public.cloak) (Norbert)
  3149. # [20:04] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@public.cloak) (weinig)
  3150. # [20:19] * Quits: smaug (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  3151. # [20:42] * Joins: silvia (~Adium@public.cloak)
  3152. # [21:09] * Joins: paul-huawei (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
  3153. # [21:09] * Quits: paul-huawei (~chatzilla@public.cloak) ("ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 16.0.2/20121024073032]")
  3154. # [21:12] * Joins: morrita (~Adium@public.cloak)
  3155. # [21:12] * Quits: morrita (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  3156. # [21:15] * Joins: Norbert (~standards@public.cloak)
  3157. # [21:30] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@public.cloak)
  3158. # [21:30] * Quits: silvia (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  3159. # [21:31] * Quits: Veronica (veronica@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  3160. # [21:47] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
  3161. # [21:48] * Joins: glenn (~gadams@public.cloak)
  3162. # [22:07] * Joins: rotsuya (~rotsuya@public.cloak)
  3163. # [22:10] * Quits: rotsuya (~rotsuya@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  3164. # [22:17] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@public.cloak)
  3165. # [22:19] * Joins: karl (~karlcow@public.cloak)
  3166. # [22:36] * Joins: rotsuya (~rotsuya@public.cloak)
  3167. # [22:39] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@public.cloak) (weinig)
  3168. # [22:41] * Joins: tomoyuki (~tshimizu3@public.cloak)
  3169. # [22:41] * Joins: tokamoto (~tokamoto@public.cloak)
  3170. # [22:48] * Quits: rotsuya (~rotsuya@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  3171. # [22:50] * Joins: rotsuya (~rotsuya@public.cloak)
  3172. # [22:55] * Quits: Norbert (~standards@public.cloak) (Norbert)
  3173. # [23:04] * Quits: glenn (~gadams@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  3174. # [23:22] * Quits: rotsuya (~rotsuya@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  3175. # [23:24] * Joins: silvia (~Adium@public.cloak)
  3176. # [23:31] * Joins: glenn (~gadams@public.cloak)
  3177. # [23:32] * Joins: kensaku (~kensaku@public.cloak)
  3178. # [23:42] * Joins: npdoty (npdoty@public.cloak)
  3179. # [23:43] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@public.cloak) ("nn")
  3180. # [23:47] * Joins: tpacbot (~nodebot@public.cloak)
  3181. # Session Close: Tue Oct 30 00:00:00 2012

The end :)