/irc-logs / w3c / #webapps / 2012-10-30 / end

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78. # [07:59] <Puddles> anyone alive?
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113. # [08:52] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/10/30-webapps-irc
114. # [08:52] <ArtB> ScribeNick: ArtB
115. # [08:53] <ArtB> Scribe: Josh_Soref
116. # [08:53] <ArtB> Meeting: WebApps F2F Meeting
117. # [08:53] <ArtB> Date: 30 November 2012
118. # [08:53] <ArtB> Chair: Art, Charles
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120. # [08:54] <ArtB> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/TPAC2012Meeting
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126. # [08:56] <ArtB> Present: Art_Barstow, Adrian_Bateman, Tobie_Langel, Arnaud_Braud, Olli_Pettay, Mike_Smith, Bryan_Sullivan, Hao_Dong, Magnus_Olsson, Wayne_Carr, Jonas_Sicking,
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136. # [08:58] <aizu> Present+ Hiroyuki_Aizu
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159. # [09:05] <Lachy> scribenick: Lachy
160. # [09:05] <ArtB> Present: Simon_Pieters, James_Graham, Lachlan_Hunt
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163. # [09:05] <ArtB> ScribeNick: Lachy
164. # [09:05] <Lachy> chaals: we'll begin, first, figure out what's left on the agenda
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166. # [09:06] <Lachy> … Process stuff to continue with
167. # [09:06] * Joins: takuya (~takuya@public.irc.w3.org)
168. # [09:06] <ArtB> Topic: Agenda Bashing
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170. # [09:06] <Lachy> … real discussions: Offline app cache, widget packaging, proposals, etc.
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173. # [09:06] <Lachy> … IME, Selectors API 2. Short, do together in a session
174. # [09:06] <Lachy> … Testing.
175. # [09:06] <Lachy> … We have a session on web intents at 16:45
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178. # [09:07] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
179. # [09:07] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/30-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
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181. # [09:07] <Lachy> IDL2. Do people want to get into technial discussion?
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183. # [09:07] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make log Public
184. # [09:07] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, ArtB
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186. # [09:07] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
187. # [09:07] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/30-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
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189. # [09:07] <Lachy> … Maybe/
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191. # [09:08] <Lachy> … It's possible that next year's TPAC will be in Asia.
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194. # [09:08] <Lachy> We are proposing to have an F2F in Silicon Valley for HTML and WebApps
195. # [09:08] <Lachy> We did it in May this year. Think it was worth doing
196. # [09:08] <Lachy> … Anyone object?
197. # [09:08] <ArtB> Present: Art_Barstow, Adrian_Bateman, Tobie_Langel, Arnaud_Braud, Olli_Pettay, Mike_Smith, Bryan_Sullivan, Hao_Dong, Magnus_Olsson, Wayne_Carr, Jonas_Sicking, Simon_Pieters, James_Graham, Lachlan_Hunt
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199. # [09:09] <sgodard> Present+ sgodard
200. # [09:09] <Lachy> … Assuming people want to turn up. The current idea is the week of April 22. HTML gets a couple fo days, webapps gets a couple of days.
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204. # [09:09] <aizu> Present+Hiroyuki_Aizu
205. # [09:09] <sgodard> s/fo/of
206. # [09:09] <Lachy> … Who would be likely to turn up in CA in April? [Dozen or so hands raised]
207. # [09:09] <ArtB> Present+ Brady_Eidson, Maciej_Stachowiak, Wonsuk_Lee
208. # [09:09] <Norbert> present+ Norbert_Lindenberg
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211. # [09:10] <Lachy> …One of the things worth thinking about is that we have virtually no joint meetings at this F2F. TPAC is where we can invite other groups to talk to us.
212. # [09:10] <ArtB> Present+ Adam_Klein
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214. # [09:10] <shan> Present+ Soonbo_Han
215. # [09:10] <ArtB> Present+ Travi_Leithead
216. # [09:10] <rsleevi> Present+ Ryan_Sleevi
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218. # [09:10] <ArtB> s/Travi_Leithead/Travis_Leithead/
219. # [09:10] <Lachy> … We should think about the groups who we should be talking to.
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221. # [09:11] <Lachy> … Templates. Are we going to make any progress today? Worth continuing?
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223. # [09:11] <aizu> Present+ Hiroyuki_Aizu
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225. # [09:11] <Lachy> … No. Drop it off the agenda.
226. # [09:12] <Lachy> … Paul suggested yesterday that a zip archive API would be useful. There have been proposals before.
227. # [09:12] <ArtB> Present+ Kenji_Baheux
228. # [09:12] <Lachy> … It's probably not in our current charter.
229. # [09:12] <Lachy> … The rule is that we have to change the charter to work on new work. Complicated process.
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232. # [09:12] <Lachy> … Do we think it's worth doing?
233. # [09:12] <Lachy> Jonas: We just shipped an API for this.
234. # [09:12] <Lachy> … We think it would be useful.
235. # [09:12] <ArtB> Present+ Julian_Aubourg
236. # [09:13] <Lachy> s/Jonas/sicking/
237. # [09:13] <bryan> +1 to considering zip archive API
238. # [09:13] <ArtB> Present+ Eduardo_Fullea
239. # [09:13] <sgodard> +1 for ZIP archive API
240. # [09:13] <Lachy> XXX: When we talked about App cache in London, there was a lot of use cases that could be fulfilled by the archive API.
241. # [09:13] <Lachy> Chaals: does anyone object?
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243. # [09:14] <Lachy> maciej: Can someone give a brief pitch about why it's useful for the platform?
244. # [09:14] <bryan> s/XXX/tobie/
245. # [09:14] <adrianba> s/XXX/tobie/
246. # [09:14] <tobie> q+
247. # [09:14] <ArtB> Mozilla bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=772434
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249. # [09:14] <Lachy> sicking: The requests have come from the gaming community. They make a single request to download resources for a game. Want to be able to extract specific files as needed from the package.
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252. # [09:15] <Lachy> … Reduce number of requests, getting compression from zip.
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254. # [09:15] <Lachy> maciej: has anyone done any testing to see if zip performance is better than other approaches?
255. # [09:15] <Jungkee> Present+ Jungkee_Song
256. # [09:15] <Lachy> sicking: no.
257. # [09:15] <bryan> the use cases I am thinking of are similar, e.g. generically the ability to download content as a package and store locally for use in the app
258. # [09:16] <Lachy> … I don't think it's just performance. Convenient for deployment to have a single file.
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261. # [09:16] <ArtB> Present+ Odin_Horthe_Omdal
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263. # [09:16] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
264. # [09:16] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/30-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
265. # [09:16] <Lachy> chaals: Chair hat off. One of our metrics is developer convenience
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267. # [09:16] <Lachy> … People are used to working with zip archives, have tools for it.
268. # [09:16] <ArtB> Present+ Sakari_Poussa
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270. # [09:16] <Lachy> … Could argue that HTTP pipelining is an alternative approach, but working with zip is something people are used to doing and won't be difficult.
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272. # [09:17] <Lachy> sicking: We did do an API and got feedback saying it wasn't the right approach. There are many ways to do it, difficult to get right.
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274. # [09:17] <Lachy> maciej: For the use cases, it seems useful to download a zip and then reference its resources by URL.
275. # [09:17] <Lachy> sicking. It would be useful to have a zip protocol handler.
276. # [09:18] <Lachy> … It could possibly work with a URL, like jar handler.
277. # [09:18] <Lachy> maciej: Is there a list of these use cases?
278. # [09:18] <Lachy> sicking: I can get them.
279. # [09:18] <Lachy> chaals: We need to go through formal call for concensus.
280. # [09:18] <Wonsuk> Present+ Wonsuk_Lee
281. # [09:18] <Lachy> … The decisions in this meeting aren't binding; call for concensus on mailing list.
282. # [09:19] * Joins: evanli (~androirc@public.cloak)
283. # [09:19] <Lachy> … The next step will be to send a proposal to the list, make a formal work item, have call for concensus on the list.
284. # [09:19] * Quits: nsakai (~nsakai@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
285. # [09:19] <mounir> Present+ Mounir_Lamouri
286. # [09:19] <Lachy> … We can get into the technical details then.
287. # [09:19] * Quits: bryan (~bryan@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
288. # [09:20] <Lachy> ACTION: Chaals: Get the ZIP archive proposal on the table as a formal work item.
289. # [09:20] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
290. # [09:20] * RRSAgent records action 1
291. # [09:20] <trackbot> Created ACTION-673 - Get the ZIP archive proposal on the table as a formal work item. [on Charles McCathie Nevile - due 2012-11-06].
292. # [09:20] <Lachy> maciej: I want to the use cases on the table.
293. # [09:20] <Lachy> chaals: We will. That comes with the proposal. Discussion about it will take place over several weeks.
294. # [09:21] <Lachy> … Testing. We had this as an agenda topic.
295. # [09:21] <Lachy> … We could spend a lot of time looking in details, or we could spend the extra time actually making tests.
296. # [09:21] * Joins: nsakai (~nsakai@public.cloak)
297. # [09:21] * ArtB note to Lachy: please use Topic macro i.e. Topic: Testing
298. # [09:21] <Lachy> Topic: Testing
299. # [09:22] <Lachy> Chaals: We need a test facilitator.
300. # [09:22] <Lachy> … It's useful to have a person overseeing the creation of the testsuite. Not necessarily writes all the tests themselves.
301. # [09:22] * Joins: Yuan (~Yuan@public.irc.w3.org)
302. # [09:22] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
303. # [09:22] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/30-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
304. # [09:22] <Lachy> … I have a list of specs that currently don't have a test facilitator.
305. # [09:23] <Lachy> … I'm going to read them out, ask for volunteers.
306. # [09:23] <Lachy> Art: People can think about it and get back to chaals or I.
307. # [09:23] <Lachy> Chaals: The list of things we want is someone to co-ordinate things for DOM Parsing and Serialisation
308. # [09:23] <Lachy> … All of the file specs.
309. # [09:23] <Lachy> … XHR
310. # [09:24] <Lachy> … Full screen API
311. # [09:24] * Yves waves
312. # [09:24] <Lachy> … Gamepad
313. # [09:24] <Lachy> … Templates
314. # [09:24] <Lachy> … Progress events
315. # [09:25] <Lachy> … This is a pretty small thing, but kind of annoying because you need another spec to test them in.
316. # [09:25] <Lachy> … Push API.
317. # [09:25] <Lachy> … Pointer API
318. # [09:25] * Quits: nsakai (~nsakai@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
319. # [09:25] <Lachy> … Server sent events.
320. # [09:25] <Lachy> … Screen orientation
321. # [09:25] <Lachy> … Streams
322. # [09:25] <Lachy> … App Manifest
323. # [09:26] * Quits: massimo (~massimo@public.irc.w3.org) ("Page closed")
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325. # [09:27] <Lachy> jgraham, The point of the test facilitator is not that you have to write the tests. You take responsibility for making sure there is a test suite.
326. # [09:27] <Lachy> julian: I volunteer for XHR
327. # [09:27] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
328. # [09:28] <Lachy> Sgodeard: I volunteer for App Manifest
329. # [09:28] <sgodard> s/Sgodeard/sgodard
330. # [09:28] * MikeSmith Yves, chaals is handing out bottles of wine here
331. # [09:29] <Lachy> chaals: I have a proposal for something that falls into the App Cache area. Not sure if this is the right group. Called Prefetch.
332. # [09:29] * Yves damn!
333. # [09:29] * Quits: nsakai (~nsakai@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
334. # [09:29] * ArtB Topic: Prefetch proposal by Chaals ?
335. # [09:29] <Lachy> … It allows a site that uses a lot of resources again and again, give a manifest of files to prefetch.
336. # [09:29] <Lachy> … Not sure if I'm going to propose it as a work item.
337. # [09:29] * Quits: evanli (~androirc@public.cloak) ("AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )")
338. # [09:29] * Yves chaals knows how to create perfect conditions for productive meetings :)
339. # [09:30] <Lachy> Topic: Introductions
340. # [09:30] <Lachy> XXX, YYY, ECMAScript.
341. # [09:30] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (tantek)
342. # [09:31] <ArtB> Present+ Greg_Billock, Alexandre_Morgaut
343. # [09:31] <Lachy> [inaudible]
344. # [09:31] * Joins: nsakai (~nsakai@public.cloak)
345. # [09:31] <Lachy> XXX, Telefonica, used to be AC Rep. Push API
346. # [09:31] <MikeSmith> s/XXX, YYY, ECMAScript/Norbert Lindenberg working on ECMAScript Internationalization API under contract for Mozilla/
347. # [09:32] <ArtB> s/XXX, YYY/Norbert Linbenberg/
348. # [09:32] <Lachy> Topic: IME
349. # [09:32] <Lachy> AAA: I would like to talk about IME API.
350. # [09:32] <Lachy> … Today I would like to show use cases, explain what IME is.
351. # [09:32] * Joins: jcdufourd (~jcdufourd@public.cloak)
352. # [09:32] <Lachy> … It would help if I could present something on the screen.
353. # [09:32] <ArtB> s/AAA:/Kenji Baheux/
354. # [09:33] <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, make minutes
355. # [09:33] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/30-webapps-minutes.html Ms2ger
356. # [09:33] <Lachy> Chaals: We had a discussion about IME. Someone started making a sales pitch about why it's a great thing. Don't give us the sales pitch, give us the usecases.
357. # [09:33] * Joins: JonathanJ (~hollobit@public.cloak)
358. # [09:34] <Lachy> Kenji Baheux: Starting with the use cases
359. # [09:34] <Lachy> … The first one is on search websites, there are suggestions for what the user is currently typing.
360. # [09:34] <Lachy> … Bad overlap from the IME suggestions and the search suggestions.
361. # [09:34] <Lachy> … A lot of complaints from Chinese and Japanese users.
362. # [09:35] * Quits: massimo_ (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
363. # [09:35] <Lachy> … Suggestions shown based on Kanji.
364. # [09:35] <Lachy> … Overlapping suggesitons shown on screen.
365. # [09:35] <ArtB> Present+ Kris_Krueger
366. # [09:35] * Joins: Travis (~5bd9a8dc@public.cloak)
367. # [09:35] <Lachy> … Try to find a better way to combine search suggestions and IME suggestions.
368. # [09:36] <Lachy> … Second category. Games.
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371. # [09:36] <Lachy> … Two use cases. 1. On Windows, if you play a FPS game, and you press one of the IME keys, it creates problems. Need to avoid IME menu interferring with game.
372. # [09:37] <Lachy> … 2. Entering a name in a game, native UI for IME suggestion doesn't fit with game design UI.
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375. # [09:38] <Lachy> … Third; Presentation software. Editing text in fields using IME interfers with live preview.
376. # [09:38] <Lachy> … Sample API shown on screen.
377. # [09:38] <adrianba> q?
378. # [09:38] * Joins: Zakim (zakim@public.irc.w3.org)
379. # [09:38] <Lachy> chaals: There is a discussion in HTML about Input Mode.
380. # [09:39] * Joins: krisk (~krisk@public.irc.w3.org)
381. # [09:39] <Lachy> … When you have an input for text or phone numbers, right now, it's kind of painful. Being able to give a hint about expected input is useful.
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384. # [09:39] <Lachy> … e.g. If I have my keyboard set to Russion, username in russion, password in english. Is that usecase related?
385. # [09:40] * Quits: Sungok_You_ (~Sungok_You@public.irc.w3.org) ("Page closed")
386. # [09:40] <Lachy> Kenji Baheux: Somewhat related.
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389. # [09:40] <adrianba> q+
390. # [09:40] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
391. # [09:40] <Lachy> chaals: What's the implementation status?
392. # [09:40] <Lachy> Kenji Baheux: No implementation.
393. # [09:41] <Lachy> Chaals: Would anyone like to work on it?
394. # [09:41] <Lachy> adrianba, I recognise the use cases. I wasn't completely clear on the scope of the proposal. Can you clarify for me which use cases are solving with the current spec?
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396. # [09:41] <Lachy> KenjiBX: Currently in scope: Composition stream.
397. # [09:42] <ArtB> Present+ Hallvord_Steen
398. # [09:42] <Lachy> … Also get the different boundaries.
399. # [09:42] <Lachy> … Can also render your own composition text.
400. # [09:42] <odinho_> -> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/association-of-controls-and-forms.html#input-modalities:-the-inputmode-attribute The @inputmode attribute in HTML
401. # [09:42] <mounir> q+
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408. # [09:43] <Lachy> … You can let the browser know what's happening so it can avoid the system IME and show your custom IME.
409. # [09:44] <Lachy> … Games case not covered by the spec.
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412. # [09:44] <Lachy> … Presentation case is covered.
413. # [09:44] <Lachy> ack adrianba
414. # [09:44] * Zakim sees mounir on the speaker queue
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416. # [09:45] <odinho_> s/Games/Custom IME design for games/
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418. # [09:45] <Lachy> adrianba, You mentioned the JavaScript API for disabling the IME. For a long time in IE, we've had IME mode CSS mechanism for disabling IME.
419. # [09:45] <chaals> [Sorry Dmitry, but it was when you started getting impassioned that it started turning into a sales pitch… I thought you had explained your technical perspective well enough to let people think about the ideas...]
420. # [09:45] <Lachy> … It's in one of the draft specs. Have you considered that and is it similar?
421. # [09:45] <Lachy> KenjiBX, There is a function for that to hit at that. Similar to CSS, but in JS.
422. # [09:46] <Lachy> adrianba, maybe we could consider if we need both.
423. # [09:46] <mjs> q+
424. # [09:46] * Zakim sees mounir, mjs on the speaker queue
425. # [09:46] <Lachy> adrianba: Microsoft is interested in improving this general area, but highest priority is the the use case around positioning.
426. # [09:46] <Lachy> … Seems like it's not currently covered by the spec.
427. # [09:47] <Lachy> … If we add that, it would be substantial scope change.
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429. # [09:47] <Lachy> … that's the place where we'd most like to work on this. What are your priorities?
430. # [09:47] <Lachy> KenjiBX: I'm interested in that. Thought about it.
431. # [09:48] <Lachy> ack mounir
432. # [09:48] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
433. # [09:48] <takuya> q+
434. # [09:48] * Zakim sees mjs, takuya on the speaker queue
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437. # [09:48] <Lachy> mounir: First use case is like a UA implementation details.
438. # [09:49] <Lachy> … The UA could just show it quietly and not have the two UIs.
439. # [09:49] <odinho_> s/and show your custom IME/or adapt the site design and behaviour to the IME/
440. # [09:49] <chaals> s/quietly/correctly/
441. # [09:49] <Lachy> … I was wondering for the styling use case. Have you considered CSS?
442. # [09:49] <Lachy> KenjiBX: Yes.
443. # [09:49] <Lachy> [could not hear answer properly]
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446. # [09:50] <Lachy> mounir: Why don't you think it's a UA implementation detail?
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450. # [09:50] <Lachy> KenjiBX: I think it's better to let the web app decide on the best UX for this case.
451. # [09:50] <Lachy> maciej: I think there might be a misunderstanding. The candidate window is provided by the OS, the suggestions are provided by the web app.
452. # [09:51] <chaals> ack mou
453. # [09:51] * Zakim sees mjs, takuya on the speaker queue
454. # [09:51] <Lachy> … Need to tell the IME system where to put the IME popup.
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456. # [09:51] <Lachy> … I agree with Microsoft about what the most important use cases are. Avoiding candidate window and overlap.
457. # [09:51] <Lachy> … The other cases seem periferal.
458. # [09:52] <odinho_> ack mjs
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461. # [09:52] <Lachy> … It seems to be designed solely for the purpose of implementing their own input methods. I don't think that is a good idea. JS implementations are not likely to work across devices.
462. # [09:52] <adrianba> q?
463. # [09:52] * Zakim sees takuya on the speaker queue
464. # [09:52] <odinho_> ack takuya
465. # [09:52] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
466. # [09:52] <adrianba> q+ chaals
467. # [09:52] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
468. # [09:52] <chaals> q+
469. # [09:52] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
470. # [09:53] <MikeSmith> pbakaus, we're talking about IME here in webapps
471. # [09:53] <Lachy> KenjiBX: The current draft says the UA can get the current position of the candidate window. [???]
472. # [09:54] <Lachy> chaals: chair hat off: In many ways I agree that JS is a terrible way to handle user input in general. Handling keyboard input breaks accessibility, etc.
473. # [09:54] <MikeSmith> ack chaals
474. # [09:54] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
475. # [09:54] <Lachy> … Except that we use it because the Operating Systems don't make things easy.
476. # [09:54] <Lachy> … In Yandex Translate, we provide an input method for converging latin characters into Russian, or vice versa.
477. # [09:55] <Lachy> … So I'm nervous about focussing on the use case of a site being able to build its own IME.
478. # [09:55] <Lachy> … The overlapping of the suggestion and IME is a bigger problem.
479. # [09:55] <Lachy> … Agree with mjs.
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481. # [09:55] <Lachy> … A lot of assisted input systems fake being a keybaord. Concerned about the interaction with this API.
482. # [09:55] <mjs> q+
483. # [09:55] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
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485. # [09:56] <Lachy> … Authors make assumptions about the user's keyboard that are not true.
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487. # [09:56] <Lachy> … This is an area where I would expect comments about robustness.
488. # [09:56] <Lachy> … This is a warning of things I've seen go wrong
489. # [09:56] <Lachy> q?
490. # [09:56] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
491. # [09:56] <Lachy> ack mjs
492. # [09:56] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
493. # [09:57] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
494. # [09:57] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/30-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
495. # [09:57] <Lachy> mjs: For touch screen devices that have touch screen keyboards, if you've written a custom IME that works for keyboards, it's most likely going to break on the iPad virtual keyboard.
496. # [09:57] * odinho_ @inputmode really helps for the Yandex-case
497. # [09:57] <Lachy> … I think using JS for this is intrinsicly not cross platform.
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499. # [09:58] <Lachy> chaals: True, but my TV doesn't have a russion keyboard option.
500. # [09:58] <Lachy> Alex: I think it's interesting that there is a battle for control between the OS and JavaScript.
501. # [09:58] <Lachy> chaals: More technical comments?
502. # [09:58] <ArtB> Present+ Alex_Russell
503. # [09:58] <Lachy> q?
504. # [09:58] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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506. # [09:59] <Lachy> chaals: Break. No coffee for 30 minutes. 15 minute break. Then short session on selectors API 2.
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518. # [10:04] <Lachy> RRSAgent, make draft minutes
519. # [10:04] <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make draft minutes', Lachy. Try /msg RRSAgent help
520. # [10:04] <Lachy> RRSAgent, make minutes
521. # [10:04] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/30-webapps-minutes.html Lachy
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545. # [10:14] <jcdufourd_> nick jcdufourd
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550. # [10:15] <Lachy> topic: Selectors API Level 2
551. # [10:15] <mjs> ScribeNick: mjs
552. # [10:16] <mjs> LH: I'll start by giving an overview
553. # [10:16] <mjs> LH: functionality of the find and matches methods is pretty stable
554. # [10:16] <mjs> LH: test suite has many tests
555. # [10:16] <mjs> LH: hopefully we can get implementations soon
556. # [10:16] * chaals owes drink or three of choice to Lachy and mjs
557. # [10:16] <mjs> LH: I'm hoping we can settle the naming issue for the methods find and findAll
558. # [10:17] <mjs> LH: Issue for parsing comments in selectors still needs to be addressed - hopefully CSS WG can address it in Selectors 4
559. # [10:17] <mjs> LH: there was a brief discussion with Anne about merging Selectors API v2 with DOM4
560. # [10:17] * Quits: nsakai (~nsakai@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
561. # [10:17] <mjs> LH: and possibly introducing extra functionality
562. # [10:17] <mjs> LH: I wanted to discuss the return type for the findAll method
563. # [10:18] <mjs> LH: NodeList, Array, or some new object that provides a combination of functionality
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565. # [10:18] <mjs> LH: Use cases:
566. # [10:18] * Quits: glenn (~gadams@public.cloak) (glenn)
567. # [10:18] <mjs> LH: (1) get a collection of elements as a result of the query
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569. # [10:18] <mjs> LH: (2) run methods that apply collectively to all the elements
570. # [10:18] <mjs> LH: right now you have to iterate individually
571. # [10:18] <chaals> q+ to try and squash the naming issue
572. # [10:18] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
573. # [10:18] <mjs> LH: (3) filter the list or run additional queries on the list
574. # [10:19] * Quits: tokamoto (~tokamoto@public.cloak) (tokamoto)
575. # [10:19] * odinho_ document.findAll(...).filter(...).findAll("...").forEach(function(){})
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577. # [10:19] <mjs> LH: (4) do method chaining, just like in jQuery
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579. # [10:20] <mjs> LH: possible solutions:
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582. # [10:20] <mjs> LH: (a) normal JavaScript array - would give normal Array functionality but could not add selectors-specific methods
583. # [10:20] <mjs> LH: (b) return a NodeList; but no Array-like functionality
584. # [10:21] <mjs> LH: (c ) define a custom object which imports functionality from Array and NodeList, but adding Selectors-specific stuff
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587. # [10:21] <mjs> AR: I'm from ECMA TC39; hard to add Array functionality due to NodeList because of closures
588. # [10:21] <odinho_> s/selectors-specific methods/selectors-specific methods (e.g. having a new .findAll() make a union)/
589. # [10:22] <mjs> AR: I'd prefer to define an Array subtype or to recast NodeList as an Array
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592. # [10:22] <mjs> AR: there's a preference to make these things Arrays from the pov of developers and JavaScript
593. # [10:22] <mjs> CMN: I'd like to address names
594. # [10:22] <mjs> CMN: everyone likes find(), findAll(), right?
595. # [10:23] <mjs> (no objections heard)
596. # [10:23] <mjs> CMN: that's straw consensus and it's a non-technical issue
597. # [10:23] <mjs> LH: that about covers it
598. # [10:23] <mjs> CMN: as an implementation question, what about compatibility?
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600. # [10:23] <mjs> LH: the problem with converting NodeList to an Array is that NodeLists are generally live in many uses so you can't import mutable methods from Array
601. # [10:24] <mjs> AR: I actually don't think that's a big problem
602. # [10:24] * Quits: hallvord (~hallvord@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
603. # [10:24] <mjs> AR: first, the liveness is a feature of someone else holding an API
604. # [10:24] <mjs> AR: this is not something that is foreign
605. # [10:24] <mjs> AR: but for the question of adding new invariants, we can model that with proxies
606. # [10:25] <mjs> CMN: any other comments, questions?
607. # [10:25] <mjs> LH: matches() is implemented with a prefix in all browsers
608. # [10:25] <mjs> LH: no one implements scope or reference nodes yet
609. # [10:26] <mjs> CMN: any other implementor notes?
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612. # [10:26] <mjs> TL: just an observation that the extra functionality for chaining seems like a much more generic feature - maybe should not be specific to Selectors API, maybe should be in DOM 4
613. # [10:26] <mjs> CMN: back to agenda
614. # [10:26] <mjs> CMN: working backwards, at 16:45 we have Web Intents - can't change that time, dial-in
615. # [10:27] <mjs> CMN: session on testing, James has agreed to lead
616. # [10:27] <mjs> CMN: the goal is to sit in the room and write tests - hands-on session
617. # [10:27] <mjs> CMN: will end at 16:45 and will begin when we finish everything else
618. # [10:27] <mjs> CMN: after lunch, short session on the Web Platform effort
619. # [10:27] <mjs> CMN: those guys do documentation, that's useful
620. # [10:28] <mjs> CMN: closer to the concerns of this group, a session on web driver
621. # [10:28] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
622. # [10:28] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/30-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
623. # [10:28] <mjs> CMN: test harness for browsers to avoid manual tests
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625. # [10:28] <mjs> CMN: at 11:15 (which means 11:30) we are going to have a session on appcache, offline cache, manifest formats, etc
626. # [10:28] <mjs> CMN: at 10:30, coffee break
627. # [10:29] <mjs> CMN: it's 10:30 now, coffee break
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702. # [11:16] <krisk> jgraham - let me know when you pushed the opera websocket tests and I'll help convert so of them
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712. # [11:23] <ArtB> ScribeNick: ArtB
713. # [11:23] * Joins: jfmoy (~jfmoy@public.cloak)
714. # [11:23] <ArtB> Topic: AppCache, Offline, Packaged WebApps, App Manifest, ...
715. # [11:24] * Joins: Yoshihro (~Yoshihro@public.irc.w3.org)
716. # [11:24] <ArtB> CMN: we have a couple of specs in our charter
717. # [11:24] <ArtB> … e.g. Widgets
718. # [11:24] <ArtB> … and application manifest
719. # [11:24] <timeless> scribe: Josh
720. # [11:24] <timeless> scribenick: timeless
721. # [11:24] <timeless> chaals: in html, there's AppCache
722. # [11:24] <timeless> ... loved by everybody
723. # [11:24] <timeless> ... because it allows you to do the same thing
724. # [11:24] <timeless> ... with wonderful functionality
725. # [11:24] <timeless> ... so wonderful that darobin will describe it
726. # [11:25] * Joins: KenjiBX (~KenjiBX@public.irc.w3.org)
727. # [11:25] <timeless> ... mozilla has a json based manifest
728. # [11:25] <timeless> ... i tossed into an email the prefetch stuff we're looking at
729. # [11:25] <ArtB> ED for App manifest is: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/app-manifest/raw-file/tip/index.html
730. # [11:25] <timeless> ... i don't know if this group is interested in this stuff
731. # [11:25] <timeless> ... we are
732. # [11:25] <timeless> ... because it gives big improvement in load times
733. # [11:25] <timeless> ... this is a free form discussion
734. # [11:25] <timeless> ... where are we at
735. # [11:25] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@public.cloak)
736. # [11:25] <timeless> ... what are the pieces of this stuff and who are using it
737. # [11:25] <sicking> q+
738. # [11:25] * Zakim sees chaals, sicking on the speaker queue
739. # [11:25] <timeless> ... people are building widget systems
740. # [11:26] <timeless> ... can we unify it
741. # [11:26] <timeless> ... should it be our problem, html's problem, someone else's problem
742. # [11:26] <timeless> ... a lot of the people who can give input are in this room
743. # [11:26] * Quits: paul-huawei (~chatzilla@public.cloak) ("ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 16.0.2/20121024073032]")
744. # [11:26] <timeless> ... i'd like to start this discussion with what is html's appcache doing
745. # [11:26] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
746. # [11:26] * Joins: bryan (~bryan@public.irc.w3.org)
747. # [11:26] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/30-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
748. # [11:27] * Joins: tokamoto (~tokamoto@public.cloak)
749. # [11:27] <timeless> darobin: AppCache - a small group of people have been meeting in corners to take it to the WG
750. # [11:27] <ArtB> Present+ Robin_Berjon
751. # [11:27] <timeless> ... something will start happening "very soon"
752. # [11:27] <mjs> q+ to talk about venue
753. # [11:27] * Zakim sees chaals, sicking, mjs on the speaker queue
754. # [11:27] <timeless> ... as soon as html enters CR
755. # [11:27] <timeless> ... so in a few weeks
756. # [11:27] <timeless> ... i'd be happy for someone else to take it
757. # [11:27] <timeless> sicking: mozilla organized one of these corners
758. # [11:27] <timeless> ... we're very interested in making appcache work
759. # [11:28] <bryan> is there a doc ready to be shared from the dark corners, soon?
760. # [11:28] * hiro is now known as hiro_away
761. # [11:28] * Quits: tokamoto (~tokamoto@public.cloak) (tokamoto)
762. # [11:28] <timeless> ... from our point of view -- it doesn't
763. # [11:28] <timeless> s/these corners/these dark corners/
764. # [11:28] <timeless> ... from our point of view, how much back compat we keep is up for discussion
765. # [11:28] * Joins: tokamoto (~tokamoto@public.cloak)
766. # [11:28] <timeless> ... we haven't had anyone to put together a proposal
767. # [11:28] <timeless> ... and we haven't found a good venue
768. # [11:28] * Joins: divya (~u1924@public.cloak)
769. # [11:28] <darobin> q+
770. # [11:28] * Zakim sees chaals, sicking, mjs, darobin on the speaker queue
771. # [11:28] * Joins: npdoty (npdoty@public.cloak)
772. # [11:28] <timeless> ... i'm reluctant to have someone submit a proposal to the HTML ML
773. # [11:29] <timeless> ... i'd prefer to have a separate ML
774. # [11:29] <timeless> ... a separate ML is required
775. # [11:29] <chaals> ack me
776. # [11:29] <Zakim> chaals, you wanted to try and squash the naming issue
777. # [11:29] <timeless> ... i'd prefer to do it somewhere else
778. # [11:29] <timeless> ... either in this WG
779. # [11:29] * Zakim sees sicking, mjs, darobin on the speaker queue
780. # [11:29] <chaals> ack sic
781. # [11:29] * Zakim sees mjs, darobin on the speaker queue
782. # [11:29] <timeless> ... i believe it's still in our charter
783. # [11:29] <timeless> ... we can transfer from HTML to this WG
784. # [11:29] <timeless> ... or do it in a CG
785. # [11:29] <odinho_> ack mjs
786. # [11:29] <Zakim> mjs, you wanted to talk about venue
787. # [11:29] * Zakim sees darobin on the speaker queue
788. # [11:29] <timeless> mjs: w/ my HTML WG cochair hat
789. # [11:30] <timeless> ... i don't have a strong opinion about this WG or that WG
790. # [11:30] * Quits: Cyril (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
791. # [11:30] <timeless> ... there's definitely precedence for WebApps taking up when it's more non-markup level
792. # [11:30] <timeless> ... there's also precedence for adding apis on, such as data-cache api
793. # [11:30] <timeless> ... i don't think HTML WG would object
794. # [11:30] <timeless> ... i think HTML WG would support extensions to HTML
795. # [11:30] <timeless> ... w/ my vendor hat on, i'm ok w/ either group
796. # [11:31] <timeless> ... i'm also happy to see the proposal in super sketchy form
797. # [11:31] <tobie> q+
798. # [11:31] * Zakim sees darobin, tobie on the speaker queue
799. # [11:31] <timeless> ... i've heard of the proposall
800. # [11:31] <timeless> s/all/al/
801. # [11:31] <timeless> ... but without details to know if we'd be interested
802. # [11:31] <slightlyoff> q+
803. # [11:31] * Zakim sees darobin, tobie, slightlyoff on the speaker queue
804. # [11:31] <timeless> darobin: i had 2 questions for sicking / anyone else
805. # [11:31] * Joins: rubylin (~rubylin@public.cloak)
806. # [11:31] <pbakaus> +q
807. # [11:31] * Zakim sees darobin, tobie, slightlyoff, pbakaus on the speaker queue
808. # [11:31] <timeless> ... you mentioned potential backwards compat breaking changes
809. # [11:31] <timeless> ... i'm not sure it's a good/bad idea
810. # [11:31] <timeless> s/+q/q+/G
811. # [11:32] <timeless> ... i'm wondering how serious you are about that
812. # [11:32] <timeless> sicking: we don't have a proposal
813. # [11:32] <timeless> ... we haven't figured out a cohesive idea
814. # [11:32] <adrianba> here are some of the ideas -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Sep/0060.html
815. # [11:32] <timeless> ... the most tangible thing i can say is
816. # [11:32] <timeless> ... we want to get rid of this whole master entry idea
817. # [11:32] <timeless> ... add more JS API to it
818. # [11:32] <mjs> q+ to talk about compatibility
819. # [11:32] * Zakim sees darobin, tobie, slightlyoff, pbakaus, mjs on the speaker queue
820. # [11:32] <timeless> ... so you can add/remove to-from the AppCache
821. # [11:32] <timeless> ... and create an appcache for an origin
822. # [11:33] <timeless> ... re:back-compat because we don't have anything more tangible, it can go either way
823. # [11:33] * Joins: Cyril (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
824. # [11:33] <timeless> ... i think we can do most things w/o breaking
825. # [11:33] <timeless> ... but if getting rid of master entries breaks it, then...
826. # [11:33] <timeless> darobin: re:venue
827. # [11:33] <ArtB> s/Date: 30 November 2012/Date: 30 October 2012/
828. # [11:33] <timeless> ... i can understand why you'd be reluctant to work w/ html
829. # [11:33] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
830. # [11:33] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/30-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
831. # [11:33] <timeless> ... we're trying to make this WG a friendly venue
832. # [11:34] <timeless> ... the way it's broken now is shameful
833. # [11:34] <timeless> ... if whomever @mozilla would like to sit down with me,
834. # [11:34] <tobie> https://etherpad.mozilla.org/appcache-london, https://etherpad.mozilla.org/appcache
835. # [11:34] <timeless> ... i'm happy to share it with the group
836. # [11:34] * Parts: JonathanJ1 (~hollobit@public.cloak) (JonathanJ1)
837. # [11:34] <timeless> tobie: there's output from both meetings which i shared
838. # [11:35] <darobin> q?
839. # [11:35] * Zakim sees darobin, tobie, slightlyoff, pbakaus, mjs on the speaker queue
840. # [11:35] <timeless> slightlyoff: we're interested in all of this
841. # [11:35] <darobin> ack me
842. # [11:35] * Zakim sees tobie, slightlyoff, pbakaus, mjs on the speaker queue
843. # [11:35] <timeless> ... we have similar thinking
844. # [11:35] <darobin> ack tobie
845. # [11:35] * Zakim sees slightlyoff, pbakaus, mjs on the speaker queue
846. # [11:35] <darobin> ack slightlyoff
847. # [11:35] * Zakim sees pbakaus, mjs on the speaker queue
848. # [11:35] <timeless> ... about optionality of master
849. # [11:35] <adrianba> q+
850. # [11:35] * Zakim sees pbakaus, mjs, adrianba on the speaker queue
851. # [11:35] <timeless> ... we want to make camping of a domain more controllable
852. # [11:35] * Joins: paul-huawei (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
853. # [11:35] <timeless> pbakaus: we have such a mess right now
854. # [11:35] <ArtB> Present+ Paul_Bakaus
855. # [11:36] <timeless> ... i think it's important to have a workshop w/ industry leaders
856. # [11:36] <sicking> q+
857. # [11:36] * Zakim sees pbakaus, mjs, adrianba, sicking on the speaker queue
858. # [11:36] <timeless> ... i count us as one of them, we really want this
859. # [11:36] <timeless> ack pbakaus
860. # [11:36] * Zakim sees mjs, adrianba, sicking on the speaker queue
861. # [11:36] <tobie> ack pbakaus
862. # [11:36] * Zakim sees mjs, adrianba, sicking on the speaker queue
863. # [11:36] <timeless> ack mjs
864. # [11:36] <Zakim> mjs, you wanted to talk about compatibility
865. # [11:36] * Zakim sees adrianba, sicking on the speaker queue
866. # [11:36] <chaals> q+
867. # [11:36] * Zakim sees adrianba, sicking, chaals on the speaker queue
868. # [11:36] <timeless> mjs: i'd like to make a plea for compat
869. # [11:36] <timeless> ... it doesn't have to be fully back-compat w/ syntax and features
870. # [11:36] <timeless> ... maybe there's versioning
871. # [11:36] <timeless> ... we do have content that uses the current format
872. # [11:36] <timeless> ... it's more common on mobile
873. # [11:36] <ArtB> q+
874. # [11:36] * Zakim sees adrianba, sicking, chaals, ArtB on the speaker queue
875. # [11:36] <timeless> ... mobile apps seem to tend to try half backed tech
876. # [11:37] <timeless> ... i see the great importance of providing a better model
877. # [11:37] <timeless> ... it's clear from web-dev feedback that current app cache doesn't meet their needs and isn't a good design
878. # [11:37] <timeless> ... i'm interested in seeing ideas which improve it
879. # [11:37] <timeless> ... even breaking the model
880. # [11:37] <timeless> ack adrianba
881. # [11:37] * Zakim sees sicking, chaals, ArtB on the speaker queue
882. # [11:37] * Quits: jet (~jet@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
883. # [11:37] <timeless> adrianba: agree w/ mjs
884. # [11:37] <timeless> ... and about compat
885. # [11:37] * Parts: paul-huawei (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
886. # [11:37] * Joins: nkic (~Norifumi_Kikkawa@public.cloak)
887. # [11:37] * Joins: jet (~jet@public.cloak)
888. # [11:37] <timeless> ... it's inevitable that we'll have to make breaking changes
889. # [11:37] * Joins: paul-huawei (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
890. # [11:38] <timeless> ... we're keen on making sure that existing content keeps workinnng
891. # [11:38] <timeless> s/nnng/ng/
892. # [11:38] <timeless> ... ms is interested in working on this as well
893. # [11:38] <timeless> ... i pasted the link ms sent to html-wg a little while ago
894. # [11:38] <timeless> ... in IE10, we supported an additional mechanism that extends the manifest
895. # [11:38] <timeless> ... we provided it in the html5 bug database
896. # [11:38] <timeless> ... which allows you to change the way the manifest works
897. # [11:39] <timeless> ... this was essential to making Exchange offline mail work
898. # [11:39] <timeless> ack sicking
899. # [11:39] * Zakim sees chaals, ArtB on the speaker queue
900. # [11:39] <timeless> sicking: not breaking existing content seems like a requirement
901. # [11:39] <timeless> ... arranging a workshop or something
902. # [11:39] <timeless> ... i feel like we should get to the point of having concrete proposals to discuss
903. # [11:40] <timeless> ... they always reached a halt when it comes to coming up w/ proposals for fixing it
904. # [11:40] <timeless> ... it takes too much time to come up w/ proposals
905. # [11:40] <timeless> ack chaals
906. # [11:40] * Zakim sees ArtB on the speaker queue
907. # [11:40] * darobin we could have a specathon
908. # [11:40] <timeless> chaals: 12 months ago, there was a workshop on exactly this topic
909. # [11:40] <timeless> ... they concluded exactly what we just said
910. # [11:40] <timeless> timeless: [Scribe: why did i have to minute this whole thing if that workshop did this already?]
911. # [11:40] <timeless> chaals: there's position papers...
912. # [11:41] <timeless> ... i keep on hearing this, yeah we want to do these things
913. # [11:41] <timeless> ... it seems we're really in a position where writing a proposal is less work than spending two days in a workshop
914. # [11:41] <timeless> ... we could make the workshop unpleasant to encourage writing a proposal
915. # [11:41] <timeless> ... perhaps the venue question is part of the issue
916. # [11:41] <timeless> ... talking about it here, it's in scope for this WG
917. # [11:41] <timeless> ... we really do have on our charter the ability to do this
918. # [11:41] * Quits: paul___irish (~paul___irish@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
919. # [11:41] <timeless> ... you can bring your proposal here
920. # [11:42] <timeless> ... i'd like to do something
921. # [11:42] <timeless> ... AppCache is one part of this
922. # [11:42] <timeless> ... metadata stuff around an app
923. # [11:42] <timeless> ... widget configuration/packaging
924. # [11:42] <timeless> ... or mozilla's proposal
925. # [11:42] <timeless> ... which was just sat on for a few months
926. # [11:42] <timeless> ... a JSON based more or less equivalent functionality
927. # [11:42] <timeless> ... is in this WG as a listed item
928. # [11:42] <sicking> q+
929. # [11:42] * Zakim sees ArtB, sicking on the speaker queue
930. # [11:42] <timeless> ... i'd like to understand if it's worth working on this stuff
931. # [11:43] <timeless> ... as a vendor, yandex has stuff which does apps based on a JSON package
932. # [11:43] <timeless> ... as our app is built from Chromium, it uses the same JSON as Chrome
933. # [11:43] <timeless> ... which is similar to Mozilla
934. # [11:43] <timeless> ... there's the dark corner of widget spec backers
935. # [11:43] <timeless> ... mutterings is
936. # [11:43] <timeless> ... given there's roundtripping between JSON and XML
937. # [11:43] <timeless> ... unifying that isn't really difficult
938. # [11:44] <timeless> ... wondering if people from those corners are interested in that as a workitem
939. # [11:44] <timeless> ... i don't think it's scope creep
940. # [11:44] <timeless> ... it's a fairly straightforward is a simple conversion of values
941. # [11:44] * Joins: JohnJansen (~JohnJansen@public.cloak)
942. # [11:44] <timeless> ... just as mozilla-chrome is straightforward
943. # [11:44] <timeless> ... Q: what are the workitems we should take up
944. # [11:45] <timeless> ... do we think doing it here is the right place
945. # [11:45] <timeless> ack ArtB
946. # [11:45] * Zakim sees sicking on the speaker queue
947. # [11:45] <chaals> ack me
948. # [11:45] * Zakim sees sicking on the speaker queue
949. # [11:45] <bryan> yes, it should be done, and here
950. # [11:45] <timeless> ArtB: art barstow, nokia
951. # [11:45] <timeless> ... about venue
952. # [11:45] <timeless> ... i'm mostly indifferent about here, HTMLWG or a CG
953. # [11:45] <timeless> ... (which was already created)
954. # [11:46] <timeless> ... but in considering venue, we need producers/consumers of appcache to be comfortable to come in and give feedback
955. # [11:46] <timeless> ... i think a CG may be more comfortable for them
956. # [11:46] <timeless> ... hashing out multiple drafts there may be easier before a WG
957. # [11:46] <timeless> q?
958. # [11:46] * Zakim sees sicking on the speaker queue
959. # [11:46] <chaals> q+ to say yandex would prefer this in the WG
960. # [11:46] * Zakim sees sicking, chaals on the speaker queue
961. # [11:46] <timeless> paulc: interested in knowing if anyone is in this WG
962. # [11:46] <timeless> ... that isn't in HTML WG
963. # [11:46] <timeless> ... wants to do this work here
964. # [11:46] * Joins: shh (~shh@public.cloak)
965. # [11:46] <timeless> ... HTML WG is about to be rechartered
966. # [11:47] <timeless> ... we'd like this to be clarified before we're rechartered
967. # [11:47] <timeless> ... if you don't clarify today
968. # [11:47] <timeless> ... before we meet Thu/Fri
969. # [11:47] <timeless> ... an AC question
970. # [11:47] <timeless> ... if we proposed Yes/No for doing AppCache in our charter
971. # [11:47] <timeless> ... will there be objections from Member companies in this room
972. # [11:47] <timeless> s/room/room-group/
973. # [11:47] <timeless> ... that aren't in our group?
974. # [11:48] <timeless> sicking: i can't speak officially for mozilla
975. # [11:48] <timeless> ... i'm not sure we'd object for it to be in charter
976. # [11:48] <timeless> ... i'd personally prefer WebApps WG or a CG
977. # [11:48] <timeless> ... i feel so far
978. # [11:48] <timeless> ... we've had an easier time talking about these things on webapps ML
979. # [11:48] <timeless> ... i feel like this isn't super tied into HTML as a Markup Language
980. # [11:48] <timeless> ... scope wise, it makes as much sense here as HTML
981. # [11:48] <timeless> ... i don't think we'd object to it being in HTML WG
982. # [11:49] * hiro_away is now known as hiro
983. # [11:49] <timeless> chaals: Yandex, first preference is doing it in Web Apps WG
984. # [11:49] <timeless> ... second preference is the Native WebApps CG
985. # [11:49] <timeless> ... which is dormant
986. # [11:49] <adrianba> q+
987. # [11:49] * Zakim sees sicking, chaals, adrianba on the speaker queue
988. # [11:49] <timeless> ... third preference is HTML
989. # [11:49] <timeless> ... if it doesn't work out like that, we're not going to object
990. # [11:49] <timeless> ... we have a strong preference, but won't spend our life arguing about it
991. # [11:49] * Joins: sato (~sato@public.irc.w3.org)
992. # [11:49] <timeless> adrianba: Adrian, Microsoft
993. # [11:49] <timeless> ... i proposed to continue this discussion in the HTML WG
994. # [11:50] <timeless> ... because it's already in the spec
995. # [11:50] <timeless> ... MS has no objection for doing it here
996. # [11:50] <timeless> ... we had the data-cache discussion
997. # [11:50] <timeless> ... we prefer one WG or the other
998. # [11:50] <timeless> ... [i.e. not a CG]
999. # [11:50] <timeless> chaals: how many people feel we shouldn't do this work anywhere
1000. # [11:50] <timeless> mjs: stop trolling the WG
1001. # [11:50] * ArtB OMG, we have a RESOLUTION ;-)
1002. # [11:51] <timeless> chaals: how many people couldn't care less where the work takes place
1003. # [11:51] <timeless> chaals: how many people have a preference for where the work takes place?
1004. # [11:51] <timeless> ... i'll pass the mic around, and ask you to state your preference
1005. # [11:51] <timeless> pbakaus: Zynga, web apps because i believe most of the apis should be in js
1006. # [11:52] <timeless> hsivonen: XXX, webapps, good track record of WG
1007. # [11:52] <timeless> adrianba: MS, i gave my preference, but guess it'll be in WebApps
1008. # [11:52] <timeless> darobin: HTML, because i think we'll fix that group, and it'll rock
1009. # [11:52] <timeless> [ laughter ]
1010. # [11:52] <timeless> SimonPieters: Opera, WebApps because it's a functional group and HTML currently isn't
1011. # [11:53] <timeless> sicking: first preference is "Fix AppCache CG"
1012. # [11:53] <timeless> ... second preference is WebApps WG
1013. # [11:53] <timeless> s/first/Mozilla, first/
1014. # [11:53] <timeless> smaug: WebApps, what hsivonen said
1015. # [11:53] <timeless> rafaelw: Google, WebApps it makes sense here
1016. # [11:53] <timeless> chaals: this is the side that doesn't care
1017. # [11:53] <timeless> odinho_: Opera, WebApps
1018. # [11:53] <bryan> webapps, because we see this as related to app packaging and synergistic with the webapps experience with widgets, and other APIs that webapps may consider (e.g. offline webapp support in general)
1019. # [11:54] * darobin would anyone mind if we transferred the HTML specification to WebApps?
1020. # [11:54] <timeless> bryan: AT&T, WebApps, we see this related to webapp packaging, synergistic w/ widgets
1021. # [11:54] <timeless> ... and offline in general
1022. # [11:54] <timeless> chaals: ignoring darobin (good idea)
1023. # [11:54] <timeless> ... there's a strong preference here to do it here
1024. # [11:54] * Joins: paul___irish (~paul___irish@public.cloak)
1025. # [11:54] <timeless> ... for the people who care
1026. # [11:54] <timeless> ... if we said, hey paulc, we think we'll do it here
1027. # [11:54] * Joins: kseo2 (~5bd9a8dc@public.cloak)
1028. # [11:54] <timeless> ... tell HTML WG that WebApps wants to do it here, and themselves
1029. # [11:54] <timeless> ... will we have a turf war?
1030. # [11:55] <timeless> paulc: i don't know the answer, we'll find out on thursday
1031. # [11:55] <timeless> chaals: message to HTML WG is "we want it here, if that's ok with you guys"
1032. # [11:55] <timeless> paulc: chairs should take an action to send a message to the html wg
1033. # [11:55] <npdoty> wasn't mjs's comment earlier that he didn't expect that to be a particular problem?
1034. # [11:56] <timeless> paulc: the question applies to html wg too
1035. # [11:56] * Quits: glenn (~gadams@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
1036. # [11:56] <timeless> ... is there anyone in html and not in webapps who'd object to it not being in html
1037. # [11:56] <timeless> ... i took the silence as "no one objected to it being in html"
1038. # [11:56] <timeless> sicking: i'll object to do it in the html wg on the main ML
1039. # [11:56] <ArtB> ACTION: barstow respond to HTMLWG's question re WebApps has a strong preference to work on AppCache in WebApps WG
1040. # [11:56] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
1041. # [11:56] * RRSAgent records action 2
1042. # [11:56] <trackbot> Created ACTION-674 - Respond to HTMLWG's question re WebApps has a strong preference to work on AppCache in WebApps WG [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-11-06].
1043. # [11:56] <timeless> ... but wouldn't object to it being its own ML
1044. # [11:57] <mjs> npdoty, I don't expect it to be a problem but paul is correct that there could be people who would have strong feelings about doing it in html wg that have not spoken up yet
1045. # [11:57] <timeless> chaals: we'll send an email to HTML we'd like to do it here
1046. # [11:57] <timeless> chaals: what are issues other than lack of concrete proposals
1047. # [11:57] <npdoty> mjs, understood, thanks for clarifying
1048. # [11:57] <timeless> ... appcache
1049. # [11:58] <timeless> ... without anyone speaking up, we don't care
1050. # [11:58] <odinho_> q+
1051. # [11:58] * Zakim sees sicking, chaals, adrianba, odinho_ on the speaker queue
1052. # [11:58] <timeless> pbakaus: for the record, we, Zynga, think it's worth doing
1053. # [11:58] <timeless> chaals: we could entertain the question
1054. # [11:58] <adrianba> q-
1055. # [11:58] * Zakim sees sicking, chaals, odinho_ on the speaker queue
1056. # [11:58] <timeless> ... within JSON based metadata
1057. # [11:59] <bryan> AT&T thinks its worthwhile to evolve and converge the widget specs with whatever comes out of the appcache evolution
1058. # [11:59] <timeless> ... we'd like to see JSON convergence
1059. # [11:59] <timeless> s/we'd/we, Yandex, would/
1060. # [11:59] <timeless> sicking: when we submitted, we didn't hear any response
1061. # [11:59] <timeless> ... so i'm surprised to hear
1062. # [11:59] <timeless> ... and happy to hear, if that's no longer the case
1063. # [11:59] <bryan> the lack of response may be simply a bandwidth issue
1064. # [11:59] <timeless> ... we were planning on submitting it to sysapps
1065. # [11:59] * Quits: kseo2 (~5bd9a8dc@public.cloak) ("CGI:IRC (EOF)")
1066. # [11:59] <timeless> ack sicking
1067. # [11:59] * Zakim sees chaals, odinho_ on the speaker queue
1068. # [12:00] <timeless> ... along with a runtime
1069. # [12:00] <timeless> ... i think runtime+packaging go together
1070. # [12:00] <timeless> ... they're co-dependent
1071. # [12:00] <timeless> ... i'm wondering if group is working on packaging format + runtime
1072. # [12:00] <timeless> ... feedback from google people on mozilla's spec
1073. # [12:00] <timeless> ... was we don't understand the security implications
1074. # [12:01] <timeless> ... it fits strangely in my mind with "but we're shipping an app store solution based on it"
1075. # [12:01] <timeless> ... what is it with this
1076. # [12:01] <odinho_> q-
1077. # [12:01] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
1078. # [12:01] <timeless> ... are you just not interested in convergence
1079. # [12:01] <timeless> q- chaals
1080. # [12:01] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
1081. # [12:01] * hiro is now known as hiro_away
1082. # [12:01] <sicking> q+
1083. # [12:01] * Zakim sees sicking on the speaker queue
1084. # [12:01] <timeless> slightlyoff: our format creates a separate origin
1085. # [12:02] <timeless> ... to the extent that they're independent, we don't have the same problems we'd have as when we join it with the rest of the web
1086. # [12:02] <timeless> ack sicking
1087. # [12:02] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
1088. # [12:02] * Joins: JonathanJ1 (~hollobit@public.cloak)
1089. # [12:02] <timeless> sicking: google's answer was "it doesn't make sense to define a packaging format before you have a runtime"
1090. # [12:02] <timeless> ... the packaging format describes what you put into the runtime
1091. # [12:02] <timeless> ... my question is "should we do that work here"
1092. # [12:02] <timeless> ... otherwise, it's in the sysapps charter
1093. # [12:02] <timeless> ... i'm fine with it in either
1094. # [12:03] <timeless> ... but discussions will happy in sysapps regardless
1095. # [12:03] <timeless> chaals: i here myself and sicking saying we'd like convergence on JSON
1096. # [12:03] <ArtB> here is a related email from Adam Barth http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2012AprJun/1017.html re Manifest and SysApps WG
1097. # [12:03] <timeless> ... pbakaus saying they'd like to see convergence for XML w/ JSON (for packaging)
1098. # [12:03] <timeless> ... onus would be on us to produce a convincing proposal
1099. # [12:04] <timeless> darobin: or just do the work
1100. # [12:04] <timeless> chaals: right
1101. # [12:04] <timeless> ... so we might end up in sysapps w/ manifest
1102. # [12:04] * Quits: BO_HU_CHINA_UNICOM (~5d9e2f3a@public.cloak) ("CGI:IRC (EOF)")
1103. # [12:04] <timeless> ... which brings us back to appcache
1104. # [12:04] * hober doesn't see what the sysapps wg has to do with the web platform
1105. # [12:04] <timeless> timeless: i will protest if i'm minuting this discussion next year
1106. # [12:04] * Quits: kensaku (~kensaku@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
1107. # [12:04] <timeless> chaals: appcache
1108. # [12:05] <timeless> ... we note the lack of concrete proposals
1109. # [12:05] <timeless> pbakaus: an implementation detail
1110. # [12:05] <timeless> ... i'd like to make sure it works w/ file system apis we discussed yesterday
1111. # [12:05] <timeless> ... our main goal is to limit the number of requests we make
1112. # [12:05] <timeless> ... it needs to be highly dynamic
1113. # [12:05] <timeless> [ silence ]
1114. # [12:05] <timeless> q?
1115. # [12:05] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
1116. # [12:05] * Quits: byungjung__ (~byungjung@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
1117. # [12:05] * Quits: Sungok_You_ (~Sungok_You@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
1118. # [12:06] * Joins: SungOk_You (~SungOk_You@public.cloak)
1119. # [12:06] <timeless> shepazu: is the queue empty because people don't think app cache is needed
1120. # [12:06] <timeless> sicking: problem is we don't have any proposals to discuss
1121. # [12:06] <timeless> odinho_: what sicking said [+1]
1122. # [12:06] <timeless> chaals: my impression too
1123. # [12:06] <slightlyoff> what sicking said
1124. # [12:06] <bryan> we havent seen into the dark corners yet, once there are proposals it will be good to consider and discuss them.
1125. # [12:07] * darobin wonders if people realise that this will destroy your group
1126. # [12:07] <slightlyoff> (I've been working on something for months and it's nearly out, but not there yet)
1127. # [12:07] * Quits: massimo (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
1128. # [12:07] <timeless> pbakaus: maybe we can get a wishlist about what we want this to cover
1129. # [12:07] <odinho_> bryan: The stuff on the mozilla etherpad exist.
1130. # [12:07] <odinho_> [2] https://etherpad.mozilla.org/appcache
1131. # [12:07] <odinho_> [3] http://www.w3.org/2011/web-apps-ws/
1132. # [12:07] <timeless> chaals: we could, i've sat through two of those already
1133. # [12:07] <timeless> ... any proposal that would be accepted would have to point to a wishlist/requirements reference
1134. # [12:07] * Quits: morrita (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
1135. # [12:08] <odinho_> -> https://etherpad.mozilla.org/appcache-london Appcache London
1136. # [12:08] * Joins: hallvord (~hallvord@public.irc.w3.org)
1137. # [12:08] <ArtB> ScribeNick: ArtB
1138. # [12:08] <odinho_> -> https://etherpad.mozilla.org/appcache AppCache second meeting
1139. # [12:08] <ArtB> Josh: we need some requirements work first
1140. # [12:08] <ArtB> … before we start on the spec
1141. # [12:08] * Joins: morrita (~Adium@public.cloak)
1142. # [12:08] <timeless> chaals: +1 from a WG member
1143. # [12:08] <odinho_> s,[2] https://etherpad.mozilla.org/appcache,,
1144. # [12:09] <odinho_> s,[3] http://www.w3.org/2011/web-apps-ws/,,
1145. # [12:09] <timeless> s/work first/work - published - first/
1146. # [12:09] <ArtB> ScribeNick: timeless
1147. # [12:09] * timeless odinho_ that doesn't work
1148. # [12:09] * timeless only s||| or s///
1149. # [12:09] * odinho_ oh... I'll try to fix
1150. # [12:09] <odinho_> s|s,[3] http://www.w3.org/2011/web-apps-ws/||
1151. # [12:09] <odinho_> s|s,[2] https://etherpad.mozilla.org/appcache,,||
1152. # [12:10] <timeless> chaals: add an XHR update after lunch
1153. # [12:10] <timeless> ... i won't be here after lunch
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1156. # [12:10] <timeless> ArtB: displaying tentative agenda this afternoon
1157. # [12:10] <timeless> ... come back @1:30pm
1158. # [12:10] <timeless> ... shepazu will talk about web platform docs
1159. # [12:11] <timeless> ... i was hoping Simon Stuart would talk about WebDriver
1160. # [12:11] <odinho_> s|[3] http://www.w3.org/2011/web-apps-ws/||
1161. # [12:11] <timeless> ... jgraham to talk about testing
1162. # [12:11] <timeless> s/Stuart/Stewart/
1163. # [12:11] <odinho_> s|[3] http://www.w3.org/2011/web-apps-ws/||
1164. # [12:11] <timeless> jgraham: i guess, what we do depends on what people are interested in
1165. # [12:11] <timeless> ... good time to gauge that
1166. # [12:12] <timeless> ... how many are interested in hearing about testing at all?
1167. # [12:12] <timeless> [ nearly half ]
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1169. # [12:12] <timeless> shepazu: who isn't interested in testing?
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1171. # [12:13] <timeless> chaals: if you don't want to talk about testing, you can skip most of the afternoon
1172. # [12:13] <timeless> jgraham: sounds like TestTheWebForward w/ liam
1173. # [12:13] <timeless> ... introduction on how to write tests
1174. # [12:13] <timeless> ... get people writing tests
1175. # [12:13] <odinho_> s|w/ liam|Lyon|
1176. # [12:13] <timeless> ... maybe an opportunity to have a discussion amongst the people who have to run the test
1177. # [12:13] <timeless> ArtB: thanks jgraham
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1179. # [12:14] <odinho_> s|[2] https://etherpad.mozilla.org/appcache||
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1181. # [12:14] * odinho_ (sorry for all the spam lately :P)
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1183. # [12:14] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
1184. # [12:14] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/30-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
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1213. # [12:17] * odinho_ y u no work replacement commands :-(
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1228. # [12:21] * timeless odinho_ : glad you did it
1229. # [12:22] * odinho_ timeless I have a problem because they don't actually seem to work though :S
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1231. # [12:23] * timeless nods, the scribe scripts tend to fall over
1232. # [12:23] * timeless i can run my local copy to test and see if it works
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1249. # [12:49] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
1250. # [12:49] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/30-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
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1297. # [13:38] <ArtB> ScribeNick: ArtB
1298. # [13:39] <ArtB> topic: Web Platform Docs
1299. # [13:39] <ArtB> Doug's presentation: http://www.w3.org/Talks/2012/10-lea-webplatform/wpd-talk/#intro
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1310. # [13:50] <ArtB> http://www.webplatform.org/
1311. # [13:50] <ArtB> Topic: Testing (James Graham)
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1318. # [13:52] <ArtB> ScribeNick: lachy
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1325. # [13:54] <Lachy> Topic: Testing the Web Backwards, Lyon
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1337. # [13:57] <Lachy> jgraham: I will talk for up to 30 mintues. Then we will get people writing tests.
1338. # [13:58] <Lachy> jgraham: In the past 12 to 18 months, the testing situation at the W3C has improved a lot.
1339. # [13:58] <Lachy> … When CSS 2.1 was going to REC, there was a big panic about there being no tests.
1340. # [13:58] <Lachy> … Now we are starting to have some agreement about what format to write tests in.
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1345. # [13:58] <Lachy> … The same format for WebApps, HTML, etc.
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1348. # [13:59] <Lachy> … The tests are all in mercurial repo.
1349. # [13:59] <Lachy> … http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webapps/
1350. # [13:59] <Lachy> … [Showing the repo website on the screen]
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1353. # [14:00] <Lachy> … We have a folder for each spec, containing all of its tests.
1354. # [14:00] <Lachy> … For each, there is an "approved" directory and "submitted" directory.
1355. # [14:00] <ArtB> http://w3c-test.org/webapps/
1356. # [14:00] <Lachy> … This is a bit annoying right now, so we are going to try and develop a system much like they have in CSS, where the spec can be annotated with relevants tests.
1357. # [14:01] <ArtB> Example of approved tests: http://w3c-test.org/webapps/WebSockets/tests/
1358. # [14:01] <ArtB> … http://w3c-test.org/webapps/WebSockets/tests/approved/
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1361. # [14:01] <Lachy> jgraham: the situation now is that we are accepting tests in 3 formats, depending on what you're trying to test.
1362. # [14:02] <Lachy> … For this group, we want to test DOM APIs, so we can write tests using JavaScript.
1363. # [14:02] <Lachy> … testharness.js framework for writing tests.
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1365. # [14:02] <Lachy> … Similar in idea to others like QUnit, etc.
1366. # [14:02] <ArtB> … https://github.com/jgraham/testharness.js
1367. # [14:02] <Lachy> … For cases where rendering is important, we use reference tests. You two files. One uses the thing being tested. One creates the same rendering using different techniques.
1368. # [14:03] <Lachy> … If the two look the same, then you assume it works. If they're different, the test fails, something is broken.
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1371. # [14:03] <Lachy> … We also have self-describing tests.
1372. # [14:03] <Lachy> … This is basically a list of steps that describe what to do and what the result should be.
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1375. # [14:04] <ArtB> … testharness tutorial by Robin Berjon: http://darobin.github.com/test-harness-tutorial/docs/using-testharness.html
1376. # [14:04] <Lachy> … I will now go through the features of testharness.js. Then in the next session, people can try writing some tests.
1377. # [14:04] * darobin wonders if we should try finding a nicer URL for that document
1378. # [14:05] <Lachy> darobin, I suggest we put that documentation on w3c-test.org
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1383. # [14:05] * darobin yeah, that could be arranged — I'll figure something out with Mike
1384. # [14:05] * ArtB how http://w3c-test.org/resources/ ?
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1386. # [14:06] * ArtB Robin just suggested: http://w3c-test.org/docs/ and that WFM ;-)
1387. # [14:06] <Lachy> jgraham: [Slides on screen, from testing the web forward event in paris]
1388. # [14:07] <Lachy> … For testing JS, no manual interaction
1389. # [14:07] <Lachy> … Two types of tests.
1390. # [14:07] <Lachy> … 1. Synchronous tests.
1391. # [14:07] <Lachy> … [Showing boilerplate test file on screen]
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1394. # [14:08] <Lachy> … The function called test takes another function as a parameter. The inner function runs the actual test, with various assertions. e.g. assert_true(…)
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1396. # [14:10] <Lachy> … [Showed example assertion from a spec]
1397. # [14:10] <Lachy> … [Now showing an example testing function that tests this assertion]
1398. # [14:10] <Lachy> … 2. Async tests.
1399. # [14:11] <Lachy> … Some tests depend on waiting for events, network responses or other non-synchronous features.
1400. # [14:11] <Lachy> … Test authors should write using the normal event handlers for the feature being tested and include test functions within those event handlers.
1401. # [14:12] <Lachy> … [Example on screen showing an asynchronous test function called by setTimeout]
1402. # [14:13] * Joins: Arno (~Arnaud@public.cloak)
1403. # [14:13] <Lachy> … t.step() takes a function, which runs the tests.
1404. # [14:13] <Lachy> … t.step_func() is similar, but generates a testing function, which may be used directly as an event or timeout handler.
1405. # [14:14] * Quits: Norbert (~standards@public.cloak) (Norbert)
1406. # [14:14] <Lachy> … [Showing an example assertion from the local storage spec]
1407. # [14:14] * Joins: sangwhan1 (~sangwhan@public.cloak)
1408. # [14:14] * Quits: sangwhan1 (~sangwhan@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
1409. # [14:15] * Joins: Norbert (~standards@public.cloak)
1410. # [14:15] <Lachy> … [Example tests the onstorage event. Uses t.step_func() to generate an event handler for onstorage. Includes assertions to verify the result.]
1411. # [14:15] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
1412. # [14:15] * Parts: Zakim (zakim@public.irc.w3.org) (Zakim)
1413. # [14:15] <Lachy> … This includes multiple assertions in the single tests. But if one fails, the whole test fails.
1414. # [14:16] * Joins: Zakim (zakim@public.irc.w3.org)
1415. # [14:16] <darobin> q?
1416. # [14:16] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
1417. # [14:17] <Lachy> … We can set more properties on the test that are useful as metadata.
1418. # [14:17] <Lachy> … The CSS WG used <link rel="help"> to link to the part of the spec being tested.
1419. # [14:17] <Lachy> … What we can use instead is a help property to point at the part of the spec being tested.
1420. # [14:17] * Joins: sangwhan (~sangwhan@public.cloak)
1421. # [14:18] <Lachy> … This helps identify which parts of the spec have and have not been tested.
1422. # [14:18] <Lachy> … PLH has been working on adding this for HTML.
1423. # [14:18] <Lachy> … I propose that we structure the directories based on the section of the spec.
1424. # [14:19] * Joins: chaals (~Adium@public.cloak)
1425. # [14:19] * Joins: Cyril (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
1426. # [14:20] <Lachy> Lachy: I don't like the idea of using directory structure as a kind of metadata.
1427. # [14:20] * Quits: chaals (~Adium@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
1428. # [14:20] <Lachy> jgraham: There are pros and cons. THis is an issue that can be discussed tomorrow or some other time.
1429. # [14:21] <Lachy> The step_func() method lets authors specify a timeout for an individual test.
1430. # [14:21] <Lachy> s/The step_func()/... The step func()/
1431. # [14:21] <Lachy> … The setup() method allows setting a global timeout for the entire testsuite.
1432. # [14:22] <Lachy> s/step func()/async_test()/
1433. # [14:22] <Lachy> … There are a range of asserts. e.g. assert_true, assert_false, etc. (Others shown on screen)
1434. # [14:23] * Quits: Yoshihiro (~Yoshihiro@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
1435. # [14:23] <Lachy> … assert_throws knows how to capture an exception and check that it's the right one.
1436. # [14:23] * Joins: Yoshihiro (~Yoshihiro@public.irc.w3.org)
1437. # [14:23] <Lachy> … A notification API allows you to findout when certain things occur during the test, using callbacks.
1438. # [14:23] <Lachy> … There is lots of documentation.
1439. # [14:24] <Lachy> … darobin has written a tutorial as well.
1440. # [14:24] * ArtB notes Robin's tutorial: http://darobin.github.com/test-harness-tutorial/docs/using-testharness.html
1441. # [14:24] <Lachy> at 16:00, we will try writing some test.
1442. # [14:24] * darobin puts it on the record
1443. # [14:24] <darobin> http://darobin.github.com/test-harness-tutorial/docs/using-testharness.html -> Test Harness Tutorial
1444. # [14:24] <SimonPieters> http://w3c-test.org/resources/testharness.js
1445. # [14:25] * Parts: kotakagi (~Koichi_Takagi_KDDI@public.cloak) (kotakagi)
1446. # [14:25] <Lachy> topic: XMLHttpRequest
1447. # [14:25] <darobin> Julian Aubourg
1448. # [14:26] <Lachy> julian: We have a test coverage report for XHR
1449. # [14:26] <Lachy> … There is a CSS and Javascript file that can generate this report within the specs.
1450. # [14:27] <Lachy> jgraham: There will be more sessions on testing tomorrow.
1451. # [14:27] <Lachy> topic: Web Driver
1452. # [14:28] <odinho_> Simon Stewart
1453. # [14:28] <Lachy> Simon: My name is Simon Stewart
1454. # [14:29] <Lachy> … Over here we have Andreas from Opera, David who works on Firefox and Mozilla web driver, XXX who works on Chrome's
1455. # [14:29] <Lachy> … Demo.
1456. # [14:29] <Lachy> … We have support for tests written in python, java c#, etc. Basically any language.
1457. # [14:29] <Lachy> … Facebook have contributed PHP bindings.
1458. # [14:29] <Lachy> … There are Perl bindings as well.
1459. # [14:30] <Lachy> … Demo, on screen.
1460. # [14:30] <Lachy> … Obtaining a driver instance using: d = webdriver.Firefox()
1461. # [14:30] <Lachy> … [More code on screen]
1462. # [14:30] * Quits: shh (~shh@public.cloak) ("Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi")
1463. # [14:31] <Lachy> … We have a version of Firefox
1464. # [14:31] <Lachy> … Using d.get() method to navigate to URL
1465. # [14:31] <Lachy> … d.find_element() method to find elements in a page by an attribute value.
1466. # [14:31] * Quits: edoyle (~erikadoyle@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
1467. # [14:32] <Lachy> … e.send_keys() simulates keyboard input
1468. # [14:32] <Lachy> … Demo of WebDriver playing the piano.
1469. # [14:32] * Quits: trackbot (trackbot@public.cloak) (Request too long)
1470. # [14:33] <Lachy> … Javascript based piano. WebDriver is sending click events to the piano keys on the page.
1471. # [14:33] <Lachy> … Demo was using Chrome.
1472. # [14:33] <Lachy> … We also support Opera
1473. # [14:33] <Lachy> … Using web driver to send keyboard inputs
1474. # [14:34] * Joins: trackbot (trackbot@public.cloak)
1475. # [14:34] <Lachy> … Also querying using javascript and JSON to find out the position of items on the screen, in order to play a game.
1476. # [14:34] * odinho_ also called aimbot
1477. # [14:34] <Lachy> … What are the kinds of thing that people are doing with these things?
1478. # [14:34] <Lachy> … QA engineers doing end-to-end testing of their systems.
1479. # [14:34] * Joins: shige_ (~shige@public.irc.w3.org)
1480. # [14:35] <Lachy> … With high fidelity user input, we can do things like drag and drop.
1481. # [14:35] <Lachy> … On Chrome and Opera, those browsers have been modified to allow web driver to inject events directly
1482. # [14:35] <Lachy> … For IE and Firefox, we get hold of the hwnd and pump WM messages into it.
1483. # [14:36] <Lachy> … The second audience are browser vendors.
1484. # [14:36] <Lachy> … They want to be able to test their browser before inflicting it upon the world.
1485. # [14:37] <Lachy> … The third audience is spec authors wanting to write conformance tests for things that can't be expressed solely in javascript.
1486. # [14:37] <Lachy> … Interacting with modal dialogs, for example, or other things that require user interaction.
1487. # [14:37] <darobin> q+ to ask about device interaction
1488. # [14:37] * Zakim sees darobin on the speaker queue
1489. # [14:37] <Lachy> … Web Driver can handle alert(), prompt(), etc.
1490. # [14:37] * Quits: spoussa (~Adium@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
1491. # [14:37] <Lachy> ack darobin
1492. # [14:37] <Zakim> darobin, you wanted to ask about device interaction
1493. # [14:37] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
1494. # [14:38] * Joins: Wonsuk (~wonsuk73@public.cloak)
1495. # [14:38] <Lachy> darobin: One of the problems we had trouble automating is platform device functions. No way to detect and verify physical actions, like phone vibrations.
1496. # [14:39] <Lachy> simon: It's fairly easy to extend.
1497. # [14:40] <Lachy> … We mandate that implementations should communicate in a common way, to reduce fragmentation of implementations.
1498. # [14:40] <Lachy> … That's a high level overview. Any questions?
1499. # [14:40] <Lachy> SimonPieters: For the W3C tests, jgraham said we have 3 formats. Can we replace manual tests with WebDriver tests?
1500. # [14:41] <Lachy> simon: The manual tests which are a sequence of user interaction and checking the result are good candidates for web driver.
1501. # [14:41] <Lachy> … There may be edge cases where we don't have that functionality.
1502. # [14:41] <Lachy> … We have an advanced interaction API.
1503. # [14:42] <Lachy> … We have a basic touch implementation.
1504. # [14:44] * Quits: trackbot (trackbot@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
1505. # [14:44] <Lachy> Lachy: Is there any ability to interact with the browser chrome.
1506. # [14:45] <Lachy> simon: Not yet. Possible to extend into this area in the future.
1507. # [14:45] * Joins: jwheare (~uid2@public.cloak)
1508. # [14:46] <Lachy> simon: web driver is an attempt to avoid getting into a place where web apps cannot be automatically tested.
1509. # [14:46] * Joins: massimo (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
1510. # [14:46] <Lachy> ArtB: How much time before the web driver spec is at feature freeze?
1511. # [14:46] <Lachy> simon: We're kind of doing this backwards. The implementations are fairly solid.
1512. # [14:47] <Lachy> … Lots of major companies. Facebook, Mozilla, BBC, etc. are happy to put a lot of weight behind this.
1513. # [14:47] <Lachy> … The actual specification is lagging behind.
1514. # [14:47] <Lachy> … If you were able to look at the open source tree, you would be able to make a compatible implementation today.
1515. # [14:48] <Lachy> … We are working on porting our tests to a W3C test suite alongside the specification.
1516. # [14:48] <Lachy> ArtB: If you have comments, submit them sooner rather than later.
1517. # [14:48] * Joins: slejeune (~slejeune@public.irc.w3.org)
1518. # [14:48] <Lachy> John: (Microsoft, Principle testee for IE). I was in the meetings for web driver spec. We are looking at and and trying to evaluate it. Cannot say whether we weil support it.
1519. # [14:49] <Lachy> simon: Mozilla will be using WebDriver extensively
1520. # [14:49] * Joins: chaals (~Adium@public.cloak)
1521. # [14:49] <adrianba> s/testee/test lead/
1522. # [14:49] * darobin and with browser-based peer to peer, we will very soon be able to test a browser from another browser
1523. # [14:50] <Lachy> odinho_: Is it possible to take control over the browser and interact with it yourself while web driver script is running.
1524. # [14:50] <JohnJansen> s/John/JohnJansen
1525. # [14:50] <adrianba> s/we weil/we will/
1526. # [14:50] * Joins: trackbot (trackbot@public.cloak)
1527. # [14:50] <Lachy> simon: It's a bad idea. Mozilla runs it in a non-interactive way.
1528. # [14:50] <adrianba> s/in the meetings/in the meetings as an observer/
1529. # [14:50] <chaals> rrsagent, draft minutes
1530. # [14:50] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/30-webapps-minutes.html chaals
1531. # [14:50] * Quits: shige_ (~shige@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
1532. # [14:51] <Lachy> … For people who run websites, it is possible to detect if web driver is being used by the client.
1533. # [14:51] <Lachy> … I would be interested in providing a way to identify when a browser is under web driver control.
1534. # [14:52] * Joins: dveditz (~dveditz@public.cloak)
1535. # [14:53] <Lachy> … I will hang around if people want to ask me questions later.
1536. # [14:53] <Lachy> … Thank you
1537. # [14:53] <Lachy> ArtB: Break.
1538. # [14:53] * Quits: lmclister (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
1539. # [14:53] * Quits: Norbert (~standards@public.cloak) (Norbert)
1540. # [14:53] <Lachy> … jgraham will continue with testing at 16:00. Web Intents will start at 16:45
1541. # [14:54] * Quits: KenjiBX (~KenjiBX@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
1542. # [14:55] <Lachy> … testing is at 15:30 instead
1543. # [14:55] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@public.cloak) ("is sleepy")
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1546. # [14:57] * chaals thinks he owes Lachy another couple of drinks of choice.
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1556. # [15:06] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
1557. # [15:06] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/30-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
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1566. # [15:16] <tomoyuki> Present+ Tomoyuki_Shimizu
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1587. # [15:38] <ArtB> ScribeNick: ArtB
1588. # [15:38] <ArtB> Topic: Testing Tutorial by James and Simon
1589. # [15:39] <ArtB> JG: if you have any questions about writing tests, Simon and I would be glad to help
1590. # [15:39] <ArtB> … just let us know
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1613. # [15:57] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
1614. # [15:57] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/30-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
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1637. # [16:08] <hsivonen> /join #tpac
1638. # [16:08] <hsivonen> doh
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1657. # [16:22] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
1658. # [16:22] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/30-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
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1660. # [16:23] <ArtB> zakim, dial Rhone_3
1661. # [16:23] <Zakim> sorry, ArtB, I don't know what conference this is
1662. # [16:24] * Joins: takuya (~takuya@public.cloak)
1663. # [16:24] * Quits: robin (~robin@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
1664. # [16:25] * Quits: massimo (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
1665. # [16:25] <ArtB> zakim, this is IA_WebApps
1666. # [16:25] <Zakim> ArtB, I see IA_WebApps()4:00AM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be IA_WebApps".
1667. # [16:26] <ArtB> zakim, this will be IA_WebApps
1668. # [16:26] <Zakim> ok, ArtB; I see IA_WebApps()4:00AM scheduled to start 448 minutes ago
1669. # [16:26] * Joins: sakkuru (~sakkuru@public.cloak)
1670. # [16:26] <ArtB> zakim, dial Rhone_3
1671. # [16:26] <Zakim> ok, ArtB; the call is being made
1672. # [16:26] <Zakim> IA_WebApps()4:00AM has now started
1673. # [16:26] <Zakim> +Rhone_3
1674. # [16:26] <Zakim> -Rhone_3
1675. # [16:26] <Zakim> IA_WebApps()4:00AM has ended
1676. # [16:26] <Zakim> Attendees were Rhone_3
1677. # [16:27] <ArtB> zakim, dial Rhone_3
1678. # [16:27] <Zakim> ok, ArtB; the call is being made
1679. # [16:27] <Zakim> IA_WebApps()4:00AM has now started
1680. # [16:27] <Zakim> +Rhone_3
1681. # [16:27] * Quits: Hidetoshi (~yokota@public.cloak) (Hidetoshi)
1682. # [16:28] <ArtB> zakim, who is here?
1683. # [16:28] <Zakim> On the phone I see Rhone_3
1684. # [16:28] <Zakim> On IRC I see sakkuru, takuya, Dewa, ArtB, kensaku, shepazu, rotsuya, sicking, Wonsuk, krisk, tantek, kotakagi, adrianba, rubylin, mjs, Arno, KenjiBX, spoussa, mishida, morrita,
1685. # [16:28] <Zakim> ... alexandremorgaut, npdoty, darobin, chaals, a12u, yamaday, jcverdie
1686. # [16:28] * Joins: leehomlin (~rubylin@public.cloak)
1687. # [16:28] * ArtB hey all -> check out this new version of XHR with links to tests http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/xhr/raw-file/tip/Overview.html -> nice job Julian!
1688. # [16:28] * Joins: sato (~sato@public.irc.w3.org)
1689. # [16:29] * Quits: rubylin (~rubylin@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
1690. # [16:29] * Joins: seo (~seo@public.irc.w3.org)
1691. # [16:31] <jaubourg> \o/
1692. # [16:31] * Quits: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak) (mjs)
1693. # [16:32] * Quits: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
1694. # [16:32] * Joins: Hidetoshi (~yokota@public.cloak)
1695. # [16:33] * Joins: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak)
1696. # [16:33] * Quits: seo (~seo@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
1697. # [16:34] <sgodard> Great, It's very cool with tests inside document, good job
1698. # [16:34] * Joins: massimo (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
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1702. # [16:35] * Parts: Daisuke (~Daisuke@public.cloak) (Daisuke)
1703. # [16:36] * Joins: edoyle (~erikadoyle@public.cloak)
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1706. # [16:40] * Quits: jsoh (~jsoh@public.irc.w3.org) ("Page closed")
1707. # [16:40] * Quits: shh (~shh@public.cloak) ("Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi")
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1715. # [16:42] * Quits: morrita (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
1716. # [16:42] <ArtB> Topic: Web Intents
1717. # [16:43] * Joins: shige (~shige@public.cloak)
1718. # [16:43] * Joins: Cathy (~Cathy@public.irc.w3.org)
1719. # [16:43] <ArtB> zakim, who is here?
1720. # [16:43] <Zakim> On the phone I see Rhone_3
1721. # [16:43] <Zakim> On IRC I see Cathy, shige, spoussa, Yoshihiro, kinji_matsumura, mjs, jsoh, shh, nsakai, edoyle, massimo, Hidetoshi, sato, leehomlin, sakkuru, takuya, Dewa, ArtB, kensaku, shepazu,
1722. # [16:43] <Zakim> ... rotsuya, sicking, Wonsuk, krisk, tantek, kotakagi, adrianba
1723. # [16:43] * Joins: Daisuke (~Daisuke@public.cloak)
1724. # [16:43] * Joins: Claes (~Claes@public.irc.w3.org)
1725. # [16:44] * ArtB Greg Billock
1726. # [16:44] <Lachy> Greg: I'm going to talk about web intents and our prototype implementation
1727. # [16:44] <Lachy> … Web Intents is a draft in collaboration with device APIs.
1728. # [16:45] * Quits: shh (~shh@public.cloak) ("Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi")
1729. # [16:45] <Lachy> … It's kind of like an RPC framework, when one app can start an activity that is satisfied by another web app.
1730. # [16:45] * Joins: shh (~shh@public.cloak)
1731. # [16:45] * Joins: dveditz (~dveditz@public.cloak)
1732. # [16:45] <Lachy> … You can see some extensions and apps I have installed in Chrome. (on screen)
1733. # [16:45] * Joins: jeff (jeff@public.cloak)
1734. # [16:45] <tantek> is anyone there from Mozilla to bring up web activities?
1735. # [16:46] <Lachy> … The page has a way to pick an image from anotehr web app. If i click on this button, it takes me to another app called Quicksnapr.
1736. # [16:46] * tantek has been working recently more on citations instead of trying to solve the "share" UI design problem, which more and more seems like a bad UX ("share" buttons in general)
1737. # [16:46] * mounir tantek: sicking and I are here
1738. # [16:46] <Lachy> … Using web cam APIs to take a picture directly on the web page.
1739. # [16:47] <Lachy> … [taken several pictures]
1740. # [16:47] <Lachy> … Can pick one and send it back to the Imagemator app (the first one he started at)
1741. # [16:47] * jgraham wonders why hsivonen isn't here to object to <intent>
1742. # [16:47] * mounir tantek: but I think there will be more time dedicated to this in DAP meetings
1743. # [16:47] <Lachy> … Using file system API to save the picture locally.
1744. # [16:48] * Quits: dnkim (~dnkim@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
1745. # [16:48] <Lachy> … I can now load up another local Chrome app and see the image on the local file system.
1746. # [16:48] * Joins: bjkim (~byungjung@public.cloak)
1747. # [16:48] * Joins: morrita (~Adium@public.cloak)
1748. # [16:49] <Lachy> … The apps don't necessarily know about each other. The intents allow them to be loosely hooked up in an adhoc way.
1749. # [16:49] <tantek> mounir - glad to hear it. carry-on then. thanks.
1750. # [16:49] <Lachy> … The nice thing is that the first web app that launches the intent doesn't have to know about the next one.
1751. # [16:49] <Lachy> … That's the loosely couple benefit that comes from this system.
1752. # [16:49] <Lachy> … It does cause some problems though.
1753. # [16:50] * Joins: dnkim (~dnkim@public.irc.w3.org)
1754. # [16:50] <Lachy> … The current status: We've done a tonne of work on the mechanics of the spec, resolving ambiguities, standard spec work, etc. Also developed an interchange format.
1755. # [16:50] <Lachy> … e.g. the details of how an image gets transferred from point A to B
1756. # [16:50] * Quits: npdoty (npdoty@public.cloak)
1757. # [16:50] * Joins: hbang (~hbang@public.irc.w3.org)
1758. # [16:50] * Quits: leehomlin (~rubylin@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
1759. # [16:51] * Quits: morrita (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
1760. # [16:51] <Lachy> … More to come. e.g. When we first proposed this API, we were thinking in terms, than when picking an image, you would always get specific user interaction approaches.
1761. # [16:51] <tantek> jgraham - re: <intent> - http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/post/22399681762
1762. # [16:51] * Joins: davidb (~davidb@public.cloak)
1763. # [16:52] <Lachy> … That was a mistake. We want to move to an event model.
1764. # [16:52] * Quits: takuya (~takuya@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
1765. # [16:52] * Joins: plh (plehegar@public.cloak)
1766. # [16:52] <Lachy> … The problems are mostly around the UI and figuring out the responsibilities of the UA and web app.
1767. # [16:53] <Lachy> … The first one is that when you have a few tabs cooperating. I have one tab that started the intent, another that satisfied the intent.
1768. # [16:53] * Joins: npdoty (npdoty@public.cloak)
1769. # [16:53] <hober> tantek jgraham: also http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/post/29085196102
1770. # [16:53] <Lachy> … How should this link be conveyed to the user.
1771. # [16:54] <Lachy> … How to manage the fact that there are two tabs involved in the same activity.
1772. # [16:54] * Joins: virginie_galindo (~virginie_galindo@public.irc.w3.org)
1773. # [16:55] <Lachy> … We thought the web app picker would be a benefit becuase they can select a new app that could satisfy the intent.
1774. # [16:55] <Lachy> … The use of this picker is a lot higher than we would like.
1775. # [16:55] <Lachy> … It ends up being a lot of steps.
1776. # [16:56] <Lachy> … User has to check permissions when setting up a new app. Incorporating app discovery and installation into the picker doesn't work, from a user interaction perspective.
1777. # [16:56] * Joins: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak)
1778. # [16:56] <Lachy> … If we imagine a defaulting model, where there is a system default for known intents.
1779. # [16:56] <Lachy> … So users wouldn't be presented with the picker so often. They would just use their default.
1780. # [16:57] * Quits: shh (~shh@public.cloak) ("Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi")
1781. # [16:57] * Joins: shh (~shh@public.cloak)
1782. # [16:57] <Lachy> … It's possible that these issues may need API tweaks to solve them.
1783. # [16:57] <Lachy> In Chrome 24, the feature is behind an experimental flag.
1784. # [16:57] <adrianba> rrsagent, make minutes
1785. # [16:57] * Quits: kinji_matsumura (~kinji_matsumura@public.irc.w3.org) ("Page closed")
1786. # [16:57] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/30-webapps-minutes.html adrianba
1787. # [16:57] * Joins: takuya (~takuya@public.irc.w3.org)
1788. # [16:58] * Joins: kinji_matsumura (~kinji_matsumura@public.cloak)
1789. # [16:58] <Lachy> … that's basically the demo and getting everyone up to speed. Any questions or discussion?
1790. # [16:58] <Lachy> q?
1791. # [16:58] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
1792. # [16:58] * Quits: noriya (~noriya@public.irc.w3.org) ("Page closed")
1793. # [16:59] * Quits: massimo (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
1794. # [16:59] * Joins: noriya (~noriya@public.irc.w3.org)
1795. # [16:59] * odinho_ has things (api) changed?
1796. # [16:59] <Lachy> Greg. It has changed. For a while we thought we needed extra metadata in the pay load.
1797. # [17:00] <Lachy> … Currently the API is very task oriented.
1798. # [17:00] * Joins: seo (~seo@public.irc.w3.org)
1799. # [17:00] * Quits: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak) (mjs)
1800. # [17:00] * Joins: komoroske (~komoroske@public.cloak)
1801. # [17:00] <Lachy> … If the model is more a persistent system or app to app connection, that may not be the best API to use.
1802. # [17:00] <Lachy> q?
1803. # [17:00] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
1804. # [17:01] <Lachy> XXX: You spoke a lot about interacting with 2 tabs. Could you explain?
1805. # [17:01] <odinho_> s/XXX/mounir/
1806. # [17:02] <Lachy> Greg: There's 1 tab that initiates the intent, one that satisfies it. What should happen if the user closes the second tab. How should that be handled by the browser or the web app? These issues are not clear.
1807. # [17:03] <Lachy> … I characterise it as more of a UI problem that browser vendors need to pay attention to.
1808. # [17:04] * Parts: davidb (~davidb@public.cloak) (davidb)
1809. # [17:04] <Lachy> sicking: I haven't been following web intents, but I was under the impression that there was some mechanism to set up a communication link between two tabs. Is that there?
1810. # [17:05] <Lachy> Greg: The way the experiement works in Chrome is that there's always a UI that the service presents.
1811. # [17:05] <Lachy> … The tab is always opened either inline or in a new tab.
1812. # [17:06] * Joins: massimo (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
1813. # [17:06] <Lachy> XXX: Chromes specification indicates that there is a pause attribute.
1814. # [17:06] <odinho_> s/pause/ports/
1815. # [17:06] <odinho_> s/XXX/mounir/
1816. # [17:06] <hsivonen> jgraham, consider <intent> objected to
1817. # [17:06] <Lachy> s/pause/port/
1818. # [17:06] <Lachy> Greg: It passes a structured clone.
1819. # [17:07] * Lachy if someone could summarise that answer better, please do
1820. # [17:07] * Lachy missed it.
1821. # [17:07] <shan> s/experiement/experiment/
1822. # [17:07] <Lachy> YYY: I wonder about the servicing page.
1823. # [17:08] <Lachy> Greg: The draft spec calls for ways to register dynamically as a extension or app with a manifest
1824. # [17:08] <Lachy> q?
1825. # [17:08] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
1826. # [17:08] * timeless hsivonen by whom?
1827. # [17:08] <timeless> q?
1828. # [17:08] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
1829. # [17:08] * mounir Lachy: sorry about my French accent and my inhability to articulate :)
1830. # [17:08] * Joins: efullea (~efullea@public.irc.w3.org)
1831. # [17:09] <Lachy> Greg: For Chrome 24, we were experiementing with an icon in the URL bar tha when clicked would should things like bookmark, share, etc. with some app that you have installed. That would use the intent system to link with apps.
1832. # [17:10] <Lachy> s/tha/that/
1833. # [17:11] <npdoty> q+ to follow up on the distinction between user-invoked and page-invoked
1834. # [17:11] * Zakim sees npdoty on the speaker queue
1835. # [17:11] <Lachy> sicking: The impression I got around intents is that hte hard part is building a user experience that basically satisfied the people we want to implement the intents. The actual mechanics of shuffling data from one tab to another is on the hard bit.
1836. # [17:11] <MagnusOlsson> s/YYY/MagnusOlsson/
1837. # [17:11] <hsivonen> timeless, I object to adding new elements to <head> and I object to adding new void elements
1838. # [17:11] <Lachy> Greg: It's like a two sided market. The hope is that there are lot of clients and services invoking and servicing intents. Getting that market is tough.
1839. # [17:12] <Lachy> … Our initial plan is using features like that dropdown I was talking about earlier.
1840. # [17:12] * timeless thought <intent> was proposed as non void non head
1841. # [17:12] <Lachy> … The reason we don't have that in Chrome 24 is because of the UI problems we discoverd.
1842. # [17:12] * Joins: Shinji (shinji@public.cloak)
1843. # [17:13] <Lachy> … Having a bunch of eco systems set up around an API that was going to change wouldn't be the best plan. So we hid it behind a flag
1844. # [17:13] <Lachy> q?
1845. # [17:13] * Zakim sees npdoty on the speaker queue
1846. # [17:13] <Lachy> ack npdoty
1847. # [17:13] <Zakim> npdoty, you wanted to follow up on the distinction between user-invoked and page-invoked
1848. # [17:13] <sicking> q+
1849. # [17:13] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
1850. # [17:13] * Zakim sees sicking on the speaker queue
1851. # [17:13] <MikeSmith> q?
1852. # [17:13] * Zakim sees sicking on the speaker queue
1853. # [17:14] <Lachy> npdoty: I mostly work on privacy in standards. To follow up, as I understand, the intents spec as it is now, the intents are done as service by a user clicking a button.
1854. # [17:14] <Lachy> … But a user could also potentially share any URL from teh browser UI, even if the page doesn't explicitly support the intent.
1855. # [17:14] * Quits: slejeune (~slejeune@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
1856. # [17:14] <Arno> q+ to ask status on intents semantics
1857. # [17:14] * Zakim sees sicking, Arno on the speaker queue
1858. # [17:15] <Lachy> Greg: The spec deals with it in a tangental way. It says that the intent may not be invoke by the API given and allows for the browser to get in the middle on one end or the other of the system.
1859. # [17:15] <Lachy> … The spec can't force the browser to do it, so it's allowed but not mandated in the spec.
1860. # [17:16] <Lachy> … I think we have a good sense of the interchange format to say how to transfer images or URLs as a data packet.
1861. # [17:17] <Lachy> sicking: We in Firefox had the need for something similar to this, but since web intents wasn't done, we did something else.
1862. # [17:17] <Lachy> … We have web activities which is similar. It has the same capabilities. Very much tied into apps. The user brings up an app, rather than a new tab.
1863. # [17:18] <Lachy> … one of the UI problems we had is that if you have multiple handlers for a given intent, you need to show some sort of UI so the user can choose.
1864. # [17:18] <Lachy> … what text string to you put in the title of that UI.
1865. # [17:19] * Quits: shige (~shige@public.irc.w3.org) ("Page closed")
1866. # [17:19] <Lachy> … We put application names next to each option. I don't know if you can do that in your implementation, given that there is no trusted name for a website.
1867. # [17:20] <Lachy> Greg: In Chrome, the picker has a string that is related to the action that was performed by the user. There's a custom string per action and a generic one if we don't know what the action is. Something like "which service should we use?"
1868. # [17:20] <Lachy> Sicking: how do you describe the options?
1869. # [17:21] <Lachy> Greg: We think that using the name of the app is the most clear. The service can provide a custom string for this.
1870. # [17:21] * Quits: massimo (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
1871. # [17:21] <Lachy> … I think the reason that that ends up being useful than just the name of the application is that when you see the UI, you're picking an application.
1872. # [17:22] <Lachy> sicking: one problem is trust. It's possible to phish this.
1873. # [17:22] <Lachy> … I could change my icon and title to Bank of America, and fool the user.
1874. # [17:22] <Lachy> … It's part of the Chrome UI, so it feels more trustwothy, but in reality, it's part of the web content.
1875. # [17:23] <Lachy> Greg: That's a problem with the picker that we had.
1876. # [17:23] <Lachy> … That's one slice of the problem with using the picker that we discoverd. I agree there would be a phishing risk.
1877. # [17:23] <timeless> q+ to comment on that
1878. # [17:23] * Zakim sees sicking, Arno, timeless on the speaker queue
1879. # [17:23] <Lachy> ack sicking
1880. # [17:23] * Zakim sees Arno, timeless on the speaker queue
1881. # [17:23] <timeless> q+ to comment security concerns
1882. # [17:23] * Zakim sees Arno, timeless on the speaker queue
1883. # [17:23] <Lachy> ack Arno
1884. # [17:23] <Zakim> Arno, you wanted to ask status on intents semantics
1885. # [17:23] * Zakim sees timeless on the speaker queue
1886. # [17:24] * Lachy Arno, could you type your question?
1887. # [17:24] <Lachy> Greg: The reason we were using a data URL is that there's a problem with web kit.
1888. # [17:24] <Lachy> … It's bug we need to fix.
1889. # [17:25] <npdoty> it seems like a concern that the picker also doesn't make it clear what kind of data is being passed along, in addition to it being uncertain whom you're passing the data to
1890. # [17:25] * Quits: seo (~seo@public.irc.w3.org) ("Page closed")
1891. # [17:25] <Lachy> q?
1892. # [17:25] * Zakim sees timeless on the speaker queue
1893. # [17:25] <timeless> ack me
1894. # [17:25] <Zakim> timeless, you wanted to comment on that and to comment security concerns
1895. # [17:25] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
1896. # [17:25] <Lachy> ack timeless
1897. # [17:25] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
1898. # [17:25] * Quits: sangwhan (~sangwhan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
1899. # [17:25] * Joins: seo (~seo@public.irc.w3.org)
1900. # [17:26] <Lachy> timeless: sicking asked about security concerns.All the browsers that ship have the ability to ask other services if a website is risky.
1901. # [17:26] <Lachy> … Firefox has the concept of how often you've been to a page.
1902. # [17:26] <Arno> The question was about wether or not there was a work on intent semantics, as for example on the edit intent when the intent "returned" the data could either be a datablob or a data : URL
1903. # [17:26] * Quits: Daisuke (~Daisuke@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
1904. # [17:26] * Joins: sangwhan (~sangwhan@public.cloak)
1905. # [17:26] <Lachy> … Been to Facebook a lot. Have not been to a phishing site a lot. I expect that that would be taken into account by the Ui when trying to counter phishing attempts.
1906. # [17:27] * Joins: sangwhan1 (~sangwhan@public.cloak)
1907. # [17:27] * Parts: kotakagi (~Koichi_Takagi_KDDI@public.cloak) (kotakagi)
1908. # [17:27] * Quits: sangwhan (~sangwhan@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
1909. # [17:27] <Lachy> Greg: Those are good points.
1910. # [17:28] <Lachy> … Some of those things are valuable to solve the problem.
1911. # [17:28] <Lachy> … We also only accept the API when it's a gesture
1912. # [17:28] * timeless ok, i have intents enabled, what did someone want it to do?
1913. # [17:28] <Lachy> q?
1914. # [17:28] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
1915. # [17:28] * Quits: seo (~seo@public.irc.w3.org) ("Page closed")
1916. # [17:28] <Lachy> ArtB: Are there other implementations?
1917. # [17:29] <Lachy> Greg: I think that someof the problesm I talked about with tabs would likely show up with web activities applied to the same kind of use cases.
1918. # [17:29] <Lachy> sicking: We've only done it for Firefox OS. Have not shipped yet.
1919. # [17:30] <Lachy> … it's intended to solve exactly the same use cases. Picking, sharing, images, etc.
1920. # [17:30] * Quits: npdoty (npdoty@public.cloak)
1921. # [17:30] <Lachy> … We do use it internally for things like the camera app. We have a button to open your gallery using an intent.
1922. # [17:30] * Quits: a12u (~androirc@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
1923. # [17:30] <Lachy> … Other apps can hook into that.
1924. # [17:30] <Lachy> … Likewise, when you have an input type=file, we fire a pick event that other apps can hook into.
1925. # [17:31] <shan> s/problesm/problems/
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1927. # [17:31] <Lachy> … The goal is definitely to solve the same problem between 3rd party apps
1928. # [17:31] <Lachy> mounir: We had an issue in Firefox OS. When you open an app, and an app opens another. In that case, we had to know when ???
1929. # [17:32] * Lachy sorry mounir, I can't keep up with you.
1930. # [17:32] <Lachy> q?
1931. # [17:32] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
1932. # [17:33] <mounir> mounir: we had to know if the opener wanted to get a result or not
1933. # [17:33] <Lachy> ArtB: Thank you very much Greg.
1934. # [17:33] <Lachy> ArtB: meeting ajourned.
1935. # [17:33] <mounir> mounir: in the case of a result was expected, we had to handle the case of the handler activity being left
1936. # [17:33] <Lachy> RRSAgent: make minutes
1937. # [17:33] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/30-webapps-minutes.html Lachy
1938. # [17:33] <mounir> mounir: to not be in the situation where we actually don't know if the result will be sent
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1942. # [17:34] * mounir Lachy should minutes been re-regenerated with my additions?
1943. # [17:34] <Lachy> RRSAgent: make minutes
1944. # [17:34] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/30-webapps-minutes.html Lachy
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1959. # [17:38] <ArtB> zakim, who is here?
1960. # [17:38] <Zakim> On the phone I see Rhone_3
1961. # [17:38] <Zakim> On IRC I see smaug, mjs, a12u, Shinji, efullea, komoroske, noriya, takuya, shh, darobin, virginie_galindo, bjkim, jeff, dveditz, Claes, Cathy, spoussa, jsoh, nsakai, Hidetoshi,
1962. # [17:38] <Zakim> ... sakkuru, Dewa, ArtB, shepazu, rotsuya, sicking, Wonsuk, krisk, tantek
1963. # [17:39] <tantek> was it not adjourned?
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1965. # [17:39] * Parts: shh (~shh@public.cloak) (shh)
1966. # [17:39] <timeless> trackbot, end meeting
1967. # [17:39] * trackbot is ending a teleconference
1968. # [17:39] <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
1969. # [17:39] <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Rhone_3
1970. # [17:39] <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
1971. # [17:39] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/30-webapps-minutes.html trackbot
1972. # [17:39] <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
1973. # [17:39] <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/10/30-webapps-actions.rdf :
1974. # [17:39] <RRSAgent> ACTION: Chaals: Get the ZIP archive proposal on the table as a formal work item. [1]
1975. # [17:39] * Quits: KenjiBX (~KenjiBX@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
1976. # [17:39] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/10/30-webapps-irc#T08-21-39
1977. # [17:39] <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow respond to HTMLWG's question re WebApps has a strong preference to work on AppCache in WebApps WG [2]
1978. # [17:39] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/10/30-webapps-irc#T10-58-54
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1980. # [17:39] * Joins: kensaku (~kensaku@public.cloak)
1981. # [17:40] <timeless> Zakim, who is on the call?
1982. # [17:40] <Zakim> On the phone I see Rhone_3
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2018. # [17:51] * Quits: tokamoto (~tokamoto@public.cloak) (tokamoto)
2019. # [17:52] * ArtB notes that PointerEvents fans should go to => #webevents
2020. # [17:52] <Zakim> +Matt_Brubeck
2021. # [17:52] <Zakim> -Matt_Brubeck
2022. # [17:52] <Zakim> +Matt_Brubeck
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2029. # [17:53] * sangwhan should probably get closer to the microphone somewhere
2030. # [17:53] * sangwhan wherever that is
2031. # [17:53] <mbrubeck> Zakim, who is on the phone?
2032. # [17:53] <Zakim> On the phone I see Rhone_3, Matt_Brubeck
2033. # [17:54] * Quits: jsoh (~jsoh@public.irc.w3.org) ("Page closed")
2034. # [17:55] * Joins: josh (~josh@public.cloak)
2035. # [17:56] <Zakim> + +1.781.362.aaaa
2036. # [17:56] <adrianba> zakim, who is on the phone?
2037. # [17:56] <Zakim> On the phone I see Rhone_3, Matt_Brubeck, +1.781.362.aaaa
2038. # [17:56] * Quits: Cyril (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
2039. # [17:57] * Quits: richt (~richt@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
2040. # [17:57] * Quits: Cathy (~Cathy@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
2041. # [17:57] <mbrubeck> Zakim, aaaa is Cathy_Chan
2042. # [17:57] <Zakim> +Cathy_Chan; got it
2043. # [17:57] <Zakim> +??P4
2044. # [17:58] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
2045. # [17:58] * Joins: slejeune (~slejeune@public.irc.w3.org)
2046. # [17:58] <mbrubeck> Zakim, who is making noise?
2047. # [17:58] * Parts: slejeune (~slejeune@public.irc.w3.org)
2048. # [17:58] <Zakim> mbrubeck, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [Microsoft] (87%), Rhone_3 (40%)
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2055. # [18:00] <ojan> Present+ Ojan_Vafai
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2057. # [18:00] <SimonPieters> present+ Simon_Pieters
2058. # [18:00] <mbrubeck> Note: ArtB is scribing this meeting at #webevents
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2090. # [18:23] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (tantek)
2091. # [18:23] <Zakim> -??P4
2092. # [18:24] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@public.cloak) ("is sleepy")
2093. # [18:24] * Quits: rotsuya (~rotsuya@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
2094. # [18:24] <Zakim> -Matt_Brubeck
2095. # [18:24] * Quits: sangwhan (~sangwhan@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
2096. # [18:24] <Zakim> -Cathy_Chan
2097. # [18:24] * Quits: Shinji (shinji@public.cloak)
2098. # [18:24] * Quits: SimonPieters (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
2099. # [18:24] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
2100. # [18:25] * Quits: dfreedm (~u7859@public.cloak) ("")
2101. # [18:26] <Zakim> -Rhone_3
2102. # [18:26] <Zakim> IA_WebApps()4:00AM has ended
2103. # [18:26] <Zakim> Attendees were Rhone_3, Matt_Brubeck, +1.781.362.aaaa, Cathy_Chan, [Microsoft]
2104. # [18:27] <ArtB> zakim, bye
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2164. # [20:57] * Quits: komoroske (~komoroske@public.cloak) (komoroske)
2165. # [20:58] * Joins: karl (~karlcow@public.cloak)
2166. # [21:01] * Joins: edoyle (~erikadoyle@public.cloak)
2167. # [21:08] * hiro_away is now known as hiro
2168. # [21:10] * Joins: komoroske (~komoroske@public.cloak)
2169. # [21:11] * Quits: komoroske (~komoroske@public.cloak) (komoroske)
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2171. # [21:16] * Quits: jcverdie (~jcverdie@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
2172. # [21:17] * hiro is now known as hiro_away
2173. # [21:19] * Quits: edoyle (~erikadoyle@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
2174. # [21:23] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@public.cloak) ("Computer has gone to sleep.")
2175. # [21:26] * Quits: trackbot (trackbot@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
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2192. # [21:58] * Quits: komoroske (~komoroske@public.cloak) (komoroske)
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2198. # [22:05] * Quits: richt_ (~richt@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
2199. # [22:09] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@public.cloak) ("is sleepy")
2200. # [22:11] * Quits: morrita (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
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2206. # [22:30] * hiro_away is now known as hiro
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2208. # [22:49] * Quits: miketaylrrrr (~miketaylr@public.cloak) ("Leaving...")
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2220. # [23:38] * Quits: tokamoto (~tokamoto@public.cloak) (tokamoto)
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2222. # [23:41] * Quits: tokamoto (~tokamoto@public.cloak) (tokamoto)
2223. # [23:52] * Quits: komoroske (~komoroske@public.cloak) (komoroske)
2224. # [23:55] * ojan is now known as ojan_away
2225. # Session Close: Wed Oct 31 00:00:00 2012

The end :)