/irc-logs / w3c / #webapps / 2013-04-25 / end

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# Session Start: Thu Apr 25 00:00:00 2013
# Session Ident: #webapps
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# [17:57] <glenn_> present+
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# [18:10] <ArtB> zakim, this is rwc_waf
# [18:10] <Zakim> ArtB, I see RWC_WAF(WAF2F)12:00PM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be rwc_waf".
# [18:11] <ArtB> zakim, this will be rwc_waf
# [18:11] <Zakim> ok, ArtB; I see RWC_WAF(WAF2F)12:00PM scheduled to start 9 minutes ago
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# [18:11] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-irc
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# [18:13] <Zakim> RWC_WAF(WAF2F)12:00PM has now started
# [18:13] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [18:14] <smaug> Zakim, [IPcaller] is Olli_Pettay
# [18:14] <Zakim> +Olli_Pettay; got it
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# [18:14] <smaug> Zakim, nick smaug is Olli_Pettay
# [18:14] <Zakim> ok, smaug, I now associate you with Olli_Pettay
# [18:14] * dglazkov says good morning, Webapps!
# [18:14] <ArtB> Meeting: Web Applications WG f2f Meeting
# [18:14] * smaug will be listening in the background. Possibly afk occasionally
# [18:15] <ArtB> Date: 25 April 2013
# [18:15] * dglazkov is running just a bit late, but will be on site asapish
# [18:15] <ArtB> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/April2013Meeting
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# [18:16] * tantek is also running just a bit late.
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# [18:16] <Ms2ger> ArtB, anything interesting today?
# [18:17] <chaals> Ms2ger: no, we're just going to do some work.
# [18:18] <Ms2ger> Zakim, code?
# [18:18] <Zakim> the conference code is 92323 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), Ms2ger
# [18:18] <Zakim> +??P0
# [18:18] <Ms2ger> Zakim, P0 is me
# [18:18] <Zakim> sorry, Ms2ger, I do not recognize a party named 'P0'
# [18:18] <Ms2ger> Zakim, ??P0 is me
# [18:18] <Zakim> +Ms2ger; got it
# [18:18] <Ms2ger> Not that I hear anything
# [18:19] <Ms2ger> That's something
# [18:19] <smaug> did you hear now something :)
# [18:19] <Ms2ger> Was that you?
# [18:19] <smaug> yup
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# [18:20] <Ms2ger> Seems to be a bit of noise on the line :)
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# [18:20] * smaug is muted again
# [18:21] * chaals notes that we are not on yet
# [18:22] <Ms2ger> So we're the only attendees?
# [18:22] * smaug makes all the important decisions with Ms2ger then
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# [18:22] * Ms2ger proposes to kick D3E out of the charter
# [18:23] <ArtB> zakim, who is here?
# [18:23] <Zakim> On the phone I see Olli_Pettay, Ms2ger
# [18:23] <Zakim> On IRC I see lgombos, israelh, abraud, chaals, aizu, dglazkov, tantek, RRSAgent, Zakim, adrianba, fjh, glenn_, ArtB, smaug, davidb, karl, Ms2ger, marcosc, danielfilho|w, logbot,
# [18:23] <Zakim> ... timeless, Dashiva, gavin, heath, slightlyoff, scheib, Hixie, jgraham
# [18:23] <smaug> --Ms2ger
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# [18:23] * Ms2ger waves at ArtB
# [18:23] <abraud> present+ Arnaud_Braud
# [18:23] * plh zakim, who is on the phone?
# [18:23] * Zakim sees on the phone: Olli_Pettay, Ms2ger
# [18:23] <plh> zakim, passcode?
# [18:23] <Zakim> the conference code is 92323 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), plh
# [18:23] * ArtB agenda: http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/April2013Meeting
# [18:24] * Ms2ger changes topic to 'WebApps WG F2F: http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/April2013Meeting; channel log = http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ ; Shadowy characters and Importers welcome'
# [18:24] * ArtB thanks ms2ger!
# [18:24] * Ms2ger np
# [18:24] <Zakim> +Paypal
# [18:24] <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [18:24] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-minutes.html Ms2ger
# [18:24] <ArtB> Chair: Art, Charles
# [18:24] * Ms2ger hears 2, 1, 2
# [18:24] <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [18:24] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, Ms2ger
# [18:25] * Ms2ger yes
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# [18:25] <ArtB> Scribe: Josh_Soref
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# [18:25] <ArtB> Present: Art_Barstow, Charles_McCathieNevile, Josh_Soref
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# [18:26] * ArtB EVERYONE: please Present+ firstname_last_name
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# [18:26] <krisk> zakim, krisk present
# [18:26] <Zakim> I don't understand 'krisk present', krisk
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# [18:26] <Ms2ger> ScribeNick: timeless
# [18:26] <ArtB> Present+ Yves_Lafon
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# [18:27] <Bin_Hu> present+ Bin_Hu
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# [18:27] * Ms2ger sounds like MS is sitting all together? :)
# [18:27] <ArtB> Present+ Tyler_Barton, Israel_Hilerio
# [18:27] <eliot> present+ eliot
# [18:27] <timeless> scribe: Josh_Soref
# [18:27] <timeless> scribenick: timeless
# [18:27] <timeless> topic: Introductions
# [18:27] <timeless> [ Chaals takes the mic around the room and has everyone introduce themselves ]
# [18:27] <adrianba> Present+ adrianba
# [18:27] <ArtB> Present+ Glenn_Adams
# [18:28] <wonsuk> Present+ Wonsuk_Lee
# [18:28] <ArtB> Present+ Laszlo_Gombos
# [18:28] <aizu> Present+ aizu
# [18:29] * plh zakim, who is on the phone?
# [18:29] <ArtB> Present+ Olli_Pettay
# [18:29] * Zakim sees on the phone: Olli_Pettay, Ms2ger, Paypal
# [18:29] <ArtB> Present+ Ms2ger
# [18:29] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [18:29] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-minutes.html timeless
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# [18:29] * Ms2ger wonders who PayPal is
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# [18:29] <timeless> s/ArtB, anything interesting today?/
# [18:29] * Ms2ger can
# [18:29] * timeless PayPal is the room
# [18:29] <smaug> yes
# [18:29] <JonathanJ> Present+ Jonghong_Jeon
# [18:30] <timeless> s/Ms2ger: no, we're just going to do some work.//
# [18:30] <timeless> Topic: Agenda
# [18:30] <timeless> ArtB: we preallocated some time slots
# [18:30] <MikeSmith> Present+ MikeSmith
# [18:30] <timeless> ... and we listed some topics, that chaals and i wanted to discuss
# [18:30] <timeless> ... we have probably half of the meeting unallocated
# [18:30] <timeless> ... we can try to move potential topics into timeslots
# [18:30] <timeless> ... or if people have suggestions, we can add them
# [18:30] <yosuke> Present+ YosukeFunahashi
# [18:30] <timeless> ... chaals on the whiteboard is trying to complete the schedule as much as we can
# [18:31] <timeless> ... usually in these meetings, we try to go through the spec status dashboard (PubStatus)
# [18:31] <timeless> ... to make sure everyone is on the same page wrt the status
# [18:31] <timeless> ... a really useful document for non-WG members
# [18:31] <timeless> ... wrt each spec
# [18:31] * Ms2ger heard "DOM WG members"
# [18:31] * Joins: Jungkee (~Jungkee@public.cloak)
# [18:31] <timeless> ... it's pretty important to keep those up to date
# [18:31] <timeless> s/Not that I hear anything//
# [18:31] <timeless> s/--Ms2ger//
# [18:31] <timeless> s/So we're the only attendees?//
# [18:32] <timeless> ... anyone have any topics?
# [18:32] <timeless> ... i know Jungkee asked to allocate time for XHR and Progress Events
# [18:32] <timeless> ... he suggested an hour for that
# [18:32] <timeless> ... should we grab the 4:30pm-5:30 slot?
# [18:32] <timeless> Jungkee: less than 1 hour
# [18:32] <timeless> ... but more than 30mins
# [18:32] <timeless> ... probably start from
# [18:32] <timeless> s/Was that you?//
# [18:32] <timeless> s/yup//
# [18:33] <timeless> Jungkee: 4pm-4:40?
# [18:33] <timeless> chaals: let's call that 5pm and if you're good, we get to go home early
# [18:33] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [18:33] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [18:33] <timeless> ArtB: sounds good to me, i'll leave an extra slot at 5:30
# [18:33] <timeless> ... anyone else have preferences?
# [18:33] <timeless> ... I have a slot for CR Interop status
# [18:33] <timeless> ... the only 4 specs that remain are specs where Hixie is the lead editor
# [18:34] <timeless> ... i'd like to spend some time to give an update on where i think we are on those specs
# [18:34] <timeless> ... SSE, Web Messaging, Sockets, Workers
# [18:34] <timeless> ... - anyone think it will require more than a few minutes?
# [18:34] <timeless> s/Seems to be a bit of noise on the line :)//
# [18:34] <timeless> ... above DOM3 was IME
# [18:34] <timeless> chaals: we had a request from PF WG
# [18:34] <timeless> ... put into a time slot at 3:30pm
# [18:35] <timeless> ... they can shift that if we need to
# [18:35] <timeless> s/PF WG/PF WG to talk about IME/
# [18:35] <timeless> ... we have a 2:30pm session w/ WebAppSec on CSP
# [18:35] <timeless> ... is 30mins enough to do CSP?
# [18:35] <timeless> ArtB: i think so
# [18:35] <timeless> chaals: alright
# [18:35] <adrianba> s/3:30pm/3pm/
# [18:35] <timeless> s/That's something//
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# [18:36] <Jungkee> Present+ Jungkee_Song
# [18:36] <timeless> ArtB: next on the list was AppCache
# [18:36] <timeless> ... sicking registered
# [18:36] <timeless> chaals: he's w/ arun, they're late
# [18:36] <timeless> ArtB: should we slot them in?
# [18:36] <timeless> chaals: i'd avoid slotting them in, as they're not here
# [18:36] <timeless> ... we could put them in the afternoon
# [18:36] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [18:36] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [18:36] <JaeChung> Present+ Jae Chung
# [18:37] <timeless> s/did you hear now something :)//
# [18:37] <timeless> ArtB: AppManifest?
# [18:37] <timeless> ... i know SysApps is doing a bunch of work
# [18:37] <timeless> ... how about after XHR?
# [18:37] <timeless> chaals: we might do it with AppCache
# [18:37] <timeless> ArtB: ok
# [18:37] <timeless> ... how many SysApps members here?
# [18:37] <timeless> ... quite a few?
# [18:37] <timeless> chaals: 6 or 7
# [18:37] <timeless> ArtB: DOM 3 Events?
# [18:38] <timeless> ... i know Travis and Gary are excited to spend time on that
# [18:38] <timeless> chaals: in the morning?
# [18:38] <timeless> Travis: that's fine
# [18:38] <timeless> ArtB: where?
# [18:38] <timeless> chaals: running up to lunch
# [18:38] <timeless> ArtB: after IndexedDB?
# [18:38] <timeless> chaals: if sicking isn't here, we're stuck on IndexedDB
# [18:38] <timeless> ArtB: dom4, status and plans?
# [18:38] <timeless> ... when we do Dashboard?
# [18:39] <timeless> chaals: yeah
# [18:39] * Ms2ger would love to hear about that
# [18:39] <timeless> ArtB: File API?
# [18:39] <timeless> ... hard to do w/ arun
# [18:39] <timeless> chaals: we could do that last
# [18:39] <timeless> bryan: do File related APIs as a block?
# [18:39] * Quits: JonathanJ (~JonathanJ@public.cloak) ("http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client")
# [18:39] <timeless> ArtB: makes sense
# [18:39] * Joins: JonathanJ (~JonathanJ@public.cloak)
# [18:39] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [18:39] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [18:39] <timeless> ArtB: full screen?
# [18:39] <timeless> chaals: dashboard
# [18:39] <timeless> ArtB: UI Events?
# [18:40] * Joins: tlr (roessler@public.cloak)
# [18:40] * Ms2ger suggests ArtB / chaals make the participants say they're present on IRC
# [18:40] <timeless> ArtB: Travis update during dashboard?
# [18:40] <timeless> ArtB: dashboard
# [18:40] <timeless> present+ Travis_Leithead
# [18:40] <timeless> ArtB: URL
# [18:40] <timeless> chaals: dashboard
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# [18:40] <hober> present+ hober
# [18:41] <timeless> israelh: on fullscreen
# [18:41] <bryan> present+ Bryan_Sullivan
# [18:41] <timeless> chaals: dashboard lets you have some time
# [18:41] <timeless> ... if we need more, we schedule time
# [18:41] <timeless> chaals: admin, chartering, misc
# [18:41] <timeless> ... when do you want to do that?
# [18:41] <timeless> ArtB: tomorrow morning?
# [18:41] <timeless> chaals: people won't be there in the morning
# [18:42] <timeless> ArtB: after the break in the morning?
# [18:42] <timeless> chaals: sure
# [18:42] <timeless> ArtB: WebIDL?
# [18:42] <timeless> plh: i have a few things to say
# [18:42] <timeless> ArtB: tomorrow after testing?
# [18:42] <smaug> heycam|away should participate WebIDL discussion
# [18:42] <timeless> plh: perfect
# [18:42] * Ms2ger wants to hear about testing too
# [18:43] <timeless> present+ Philippe_Le_Hegaret
# [18:43] <timeless> chaals: heycam would be better w/ afternoon
# [18:43] <timeless> ... bounce something somewhere
# [18:43] <timeless> ... AppCache to early tomorrow moring
# [18:43] <timeless> Daniel_Austin: couple of stragglers
# [18:44] <timeless> eric: Eric from Google
# [18:44] <timeless> sicking: Jonas Sicking
# [18:44] <timeless> present+ Jonas_Sicking
# [18:44] <timeless> present+ Eric_Uhrhane
# [18:44] <timeless> israelh: can we do AppCache
# [18:44] * Quits: tantek (~tpod@public.cloak) ("Colloquy for iPod touch - http://colloquy.mobi")
# [18:44] <timeless> chaals: ok, we'll do AppCache first thing this morning
# [18:44] <timeless> ... AppCache and Manifests and IndexedDB and DOM3 events
# [18:44] <timeless> ... plenty of entertainment
# [18:45] <timeless> ArtB: not sure we need an hour for IndexedDB
# [18:45] <timeless> ArtB: any other hot topics?
# [18:45] <timeless> ... we have Testing for Tomorrow morning
# [18:45] <timeless> ... 10am-11 tomorrow morning
# [18:45] <timeless> bryan: we'll talk about AppCache w/ Manifest
# [18:46] <timeless> ... what about WebIntents / WebActivities?
# [18:46] <timeless> ArtB: we can hit it during the dashboard
# [18:46] <timeless> bryan: it'd be good to hear more than a moment's talk about it...
# [18:46] <timeless> ArtB: anyone have more to say about WebIntents?
# [18:46] <timeless> ... let's take are of it during the dashboard
# [18:46] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [18:46] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [18:47] <timeless> s/did you hear now something :)//
# [18:47] * ArtB http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/PubStatus#API_Specifications
# [18:47] <timeless> i|w3|topic: Dashboard / PubStatus|
# [18:47] * Joins: acolwell (~acolwell@public.cloak)
# [18:47] <timeless> ArtB: CORS is first
# [18:47] <timeless> ... we have WebAppSec coming over to talk about CSP
# [18:47] <timeless> ... they can give us a quick update on CORS CR
# [18:47] <timeless> ... anyone have concerns on CORS?
# [18:47] <timeless> ... next: Clipboard APIs and events
# [18:48] <timeless> ... halford published a new update on that
# [18:48] <timeless> ... quite a bit of discussion
# [18:48] <timeless> ... i suspect an LC is a few months away at least
# [18:48] <timeless> ... anyone else on clipboard?
# [18:48] <timeless> ... we'll skip dimitri's web components, he has an hour this afternoon
# [18:48] * Joins: tantek (~tpod@public.cloak)
# [18:48] <timeless> ... dom4, lachlan hunt is the editor of record
# [18:48] <timeless> ... he's an invited expert
# [18:48] <timeless> ... he left opera this last winter
# [18:48] <timeless> ... dom4 that anne is doing has involved
# [18:49] <timeless> ... it includes a rough specification of futures
# [18:49] <timeless> ... i don't think lachlan has moved it into his spec
# [18:49] <timeless> Travis: no
# [18:49] <timeless> ArtB: we could rathole on this
# [18:49] <timeless> ... anyone willing to step up and help lachlan
# [18:49] * Ms2ger does not see the point :)
# [18:49] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [18:49] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [18:49] <timeless> chaals: lachlan may be busy
# [18:49] <timeless> ... anyone wants to put their hand up and help...
# [18:50] <timeless> ... rathole on futures, i think we should take
# [18:50] <timeless> ... coordination w/ TC39
# [18:50] <timeless> ... WebIDL stuff
# [18:50] <timeless> s|s///||
# [18:51] <timeless> ArtB: anything that depends on dom4/futures is going to run into a problem
# [18:51] <timeless> glenn_: HTML5
# [18:51] <timeless> chaals: not our spec
# [18:51] <timeless> ArtB: certainly not the only spec
# [18:51] <timeless> chaals: probably the highest priority
# [18:51] <timeless> ... know someone who wants to be famous, and hairless
# [18:51] <timeless> ... we'd appreciate names, addresses, ...
# [18:52] <timeless> s/did you hear now something/XX/
# [18:52] <timeless> glenn_: why not send an email to the list soliciting editors?
# [18:52] <timeless> chaals: we will
# [18:52] <ArtB> ACTION: barstow work with Chaals on a call for editor help for DOM4
# [18:52] * @trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [18:52] * RRSAgent records action 1
# [18:52] <@trackbot> Created ACTION-675 - Work with Chaals on a call for editor help for DOM4 [on Arthur Barstow - due 2013-05-02].
# [18:52] <timeless> ... but please raise your hand to get the mic, so the people on the phone can hear
# [18:52] <timeless> ArtB: DOM Parsing and Serialization
# [18:52] <timeless> Travis: extremely stable spec
# [18:53] <timeless> ... one open bug to update Status of document
# [18:53] <timeless> ... to say it's a mirror of Ms2ger 's document
# [18:53] <timeless> ... i don't believe we have any tests yet
# [18:53] * Ms2ger has some tests
# [18:53] <timeless> ... i believe next step is
# [18:53] <timeless> ... make update, fix bug
# [18:53] <timeless> ... propose LC
# [18:53] <timeless> ... and start working on test suite
# [18:53] <timeless> chaals: test facilitator?
# [18:53] <timeless> Travis: TBD
# [18:53] <timeless> Ms2ger: I have some tests
# [18:53] <timeless> ArtB: can you take an action to work on that bug?
# [18:54] <timeless> Travis: yes
# [18:54] <timeless> chaals: estimate of LC schedule?
# [18:54] <ArtB> ACTION: travis resolve last bug for DOM P&S and notify Art so a CfC for LC can be started
# [18:54] * RRSAgent records action 2
# [18:54] * @trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [18:54] <@trackbot> Created ACTION-676 - Resolve last bug for DOM P&S and notify Art so a CfC for LC can be started [on Travis Leithead - due 2013-05-02].
# [18:54] <timeless> Travis: a week or two to issue CfC
# [18:54] * tantek just ran into dglazkov in the parking lot.
# [18:54] <timeless> chaals: you've got a week
# [18:54] <timeless> chaals: File API is running behind schedule
# [18:54] <timeless> ArtB: we allocated that
# [18:54] <timeless> chaals: this afternoon
# [18:54] <timeless> ArtB: Fullscreen?
# [18:55] <timeless> israelh: a couple things we found
# [18:55] <timeless> ... there's a reference to the FullScreen Event
# [18:55] <timeless> ... that's talked about in the Spec
# [18:55] <timeless> ... but isn't part of the IDL
# [18:55] <timeless> ... everyone does implement on onevent handler
# [18:55] <timeless> ... but it isn't in the document
# [18:55] <timeless> ... the only thing is
# [18:55] <timeless> ... do we need a dependency between Screen Orientation and Fullscreen?
# [18:55] <timeless> ... putting part of spec w/ what others have done
# [18:56] <timeless> ... and other is should there be a relationship w/ screen orientation
# [18:56] * Joins: Travis (~Travis@public.cloak)
# [18:56] <timeless> ArtB: we had a few people join us
# [18:56] <timeless> alec_flett: indexeddb
# [18:56] <timeless> joshua_bell: joshua bell, google
# [18:56] * Travis ms2ger: are those Parsing & Serialization tests on Github or elsewhere?
# [18:56] <chaals> rrsagent, draft minutes
# [18:56] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-minutes.html chaals
# [18:57] <timeless> ArtB: there's an active thread on israelh 's question
# [18:57] * Ms2ger Travis: in the spec repo, still, I think
# [18:57] <timeless> ... screen orientation is israelh 's
# [18:57] <timeless> ... fullscreen is tantek and anne
# [18:57] <timeless> ArtB: chaals said asking the chairs is not the right thing
# [18:57] <timeless> ... ask the room
# [18:57] <timeless> israelh: it was a question for the room
# [18:57] * Quits: jeffh (~d871a880@public.cloak) ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client")
# [18:58] <timeless> ... is there an objection to adding the idl definitions to the spec
# [18:58] <timeless> ... Mozilla and Chrome do it
# [18:58] <timeless> chaals: seems logical
# [18:58] * Ms2ger logical? Sounds like something we shouldn't do :)
# [18:58] <timeless> israelh: do we need the editor here?
# [18:58] <timeless> ArtB: it's tricky since anne and tantek aren't members
# [18:58] * Ms2ger so what's the issue?
# [18:59] <timeless> ... tantek is a member of CSS, and it's a joint deliverable w/ them
# [18:59] * timeless editor isn't a member of the group/in room, hard to decide to do w/o them being around to say "ok"
# [18:59] <timeless> ArtB: Gamepad
# [18:59] <timeless> ... i haven't gotten updates from scott/ted on it
# [18:59] <timeless> ... any data on implementation status
# [18:59] <timeless> smaug: ted landed a patch to gecko
# [18:59] <timeless> ... and has been fixing bugs in the spec
# [18:59] <timeless> ... it's changing
# [18:59] <timeless> chaals: implementation status beyond gecko?
# [19:00] <timeless> smaug: gecko has some support in nightlies
# [19:00] <timeless> ... and chrome has some
# [19:00] <timeless> ... but i don't know if it's the same, as the spec is changing
# [19:00] <timeless> chaals: testing?
# [19:00] <timeless> ... do you know more than we do?
# [19:00] <timeless> smaug: no
# [19:01] <timeless> ArtB: next is Web Components, IndexedDB
# [19:01] * Parts: fjh (~fhirsch3@public.cloak) (fjh)
# [19:01] <timeless> ... Java Bindings
# [19:01] <timeless> Travis: who has the action for that?
# [19:01] <timeless> ... heycam?
# [19:01] <timeless> chaals: yes
# [19:01] <timeless> ArtB: should we push to NOTE?
# [19:01] <timeless> Travis: i'd like to
# [19:01] <timeless> ... i don't think anyone would object
# [19:01] <ArtB> ACTION: barstow start a CfC to move Java bindinings for WebIDL to WG Note
# [19:01] * @trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [19:01] * RRSAgent records action 3
# [19:01] <@trackbot> Created ACTION-677 - Start a CfC to move Java bindinings for WebIDL to WG Note [on Arthur Barstow - due 2013-05-02].
# [19:02] <timeless> ArtB: pointer lock
# [19:02] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [19:02] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [19:02] <timeless> smaug: non fullscreen pointer lock is supported in nightlies
# [19:02] <timeless> ... and i think in Alpha
# [19:02] <timeless> ... and i think in Chrome
# [19:02] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@public.cloak)
# [19:02] <timeless> s/Alpha/Aurora/
# [19:02] <timeless> ... i think they're pretty close
# [19:02] <timeless> ArtB: action on chaals / i to chase vincent on getting to LC
# [19:02] * Travis ms2ger: I think I found the tests you were mentioning: https://github.com/whatwg/domparsing/tree/master/tests
# [19:03] <timeless> ... does the spec look pretty good, or are there major issues?
# [19:03] <timeless> smaug: i think there are issues
# [19:03] <timeless> ... on how permissions are handled
# [19:03] <timeless> ... i think there are bugs open
# [19:03] <timeless> chaals: yeah, action on us to chase vincent
# [19:03] * Ms2ger Travis: yeah, those are the ones. Not too many yet, but some :)
# [19:03] <timeless> ... progress we have scheduled
# [19:03] <timeless> ... and push
# [19:03] <timeless> chaals: Quota Management, whose fault is that?
# [19:03] <ArtB> ACTION: barstow ask Vincent about next step for PointerLock (e.g. what needs to be done to go LC)
# [19:03] * RRSAgent records action 4
# [19:03] * @trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [19:03] <@trackbot> Created ACTION-678 - Ask Vincent about next step for PointerLock (e.g. what needs to be done to go LC) [on Arthur Barstow - due 2013-05-02].
# [19:04] <timeless> eric: as far as i know, Kinuko isn't going to be here
# [19:04] * adrianba Kinuko Yasuda
# [19:04] <timeless> ... no status
# [19:04] <timeless> chaals: action us to chase that
# [19:04] <timeless> ... Selectors API
# [19:04] <timeless> ... it's a REC, we're done
# [19:04] <timeless> ... *woohoo*
# [19:04] <ArtB> ACTION: barstow ask Kinuko about status and plans for Quota Mangement API
# [19:04] * RRSAgent records action 5
# [19:04] * @trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [19:04] <@trackbot> Created ACTION-679 - Ask Kinuko about status and plans for Quota Mangement API [on Arthur Barstow - due 2013-05-02].
# [19:05] <timeless> ... Selectors API Level 2?
# [19:05] <timeless> Travis: i'd love to hear an implementation report
# [19:05] <timeless> ... i know IE has pieces of it - matchesSelector()
# [19:05] <timeless> [ Silence ]
# [19:05] <timeless> Travis: ok
# [19:05] <timeless> ArtB: we can take an action to ask lachy
# [19:05] * Joins: richt (~richt@public.cloak)
# [19:05] <ArtB> ACTION: barstow ask Lachlan if he has some impl data re Selectors API v2
# [19:05] * RRSAgent records action 6
# [19:05] * @trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [19:05] <@trackbot> Created ACTION-680 - Ask Lachlan if he has some impl data re Selectors API v2 [on Arthur Barstow - due 2013-05-02].
# [19:05] <timeless> s/scribenick: timeless//
# [19:05] <timeless> s/scribe: Josh_Soref//
# [19:06] <timeless> s/yes/yeS/
# [19:06] <timeless> s/yes//
# [19:06] <timeless> s/yeS/yes/
# [19:06] <timeless> MikeSmith: Web Components has arrived
# [19:06] <timeless> present+ dglazkov
# [19:06] <timeless> present+ tantek
# [19:06] <timeless> tantek: and a couple of github observers
# [19:06] <timeless> mat_tod: mat tod
# [19:07] <timeless> corry_johnson: corry johson [Github]
# [19:07] <timeless> s/tod/tod [Github]
# [19:07] <timeless> ArtB: SSE
# [19:07] <timeless> ... entered CR last december
# [19:07] * Joins: jsbell (~uid6276@public.cloak)
# [19:07] <timeless> ... tina has run inerop
# [19:07] <timeless> ... once bugs are fixed
# [19:07] <timeless> ... that spec should be able to do interop testing for CR
# [19:07] <timeless> s/inerop/interop/
# [19:07] <timeless> ... tina has a column for IE
# [19:08] <timeless> ... it appears, that it's not implemented?
# [19:08] <timeless> ... should we remove that column?
# [19:08] <timeless> adrianba: we don't have anything to say about any plans
# [19:08] <timeless> ... you should remove the column
# [19:08] <timeless> ArtB: ok, i'll tell tina
# [19:08] <timeless> ... anything else on SSE?
# [19:08] <timeless> ... Shadow DOM, dglazkov will take mic later
# [19:08] * Quits: tantek (~tpod@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [19:08] <timeless> ... Screen Orientation, we spoke earlier
# [19:08] <timeless> ... - mounir isn't here
# [19:09] * mounir is reading
# [19:09] <timeless> chaals: i was especting tobie to point out
# [19:09] <timeless> ... there's functionality that's important to tablet/game developers
# [19:09] <ArtB> ACTION: barstow ask Tina to remove the IE column from the SSE implementation report
# [19:09] * @trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [19:09] * RRSAgent records action 7
# [19:09] <timeless> ... about specifying/holding that isn't in spec
# [19:09] <@trackbot> Created ACTION-681 - Ask Tina to remove the IE column from the SSE implementation report [on Arthur Barstow - due 2013-05-02].
# [19:09] <timeless> israelh: one question, related to fullscreen
# [19:09] <timeless> ... what are expectations around browser?
# [19:09] <timeless> ... should browser be in full screen at that point?
# [19:09] <timeless> ... or should it be something that
# [19:09] * Quits: richt (~richt@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [19:10] <timeless> ... maybe it's... when you go fullscreen
# [19:10] <timeless> chaals: my understanding is that the browser isn't expected to fullscreen itself
# [19:10] <timeless> ... the thing you fullscreen goes fullscreen
# [19:10] <timeless> ... it's unclear what happens if you fullscreen something in a fullscreened thing
# [19:10] <timeless> israelh: part of it is
# [19:10] <timeless> ... there's a jarring experience
# [19:10] <timeless> ... when the browser is taking a portion of the screen
# [19:10] <timeless> ... and you navigate to a web page
# [19:11] <timeless> ... and it forces the screen orientation to switch
# [19:11] <timeless> ... in a tablet, everything is flipped arond
# [19:11] <timeless> s/arond/around/
# [19:11] <timeless> ... is there a ratio when this would kick in
# [19:11] <timeless> ... it's very different than just happened to navigate to the page
# [19:11] <timeless> ... frame around it happens to be mostly fullscreen
# [19:11] * Joins: tantek_ (~tantek_@public.cloak)
# [19:11] <timeless> ... and a page that requests to go full screen
# [19:11] <timeless> ... like input
# [19:12] <timeless> chaals: don't see any reason why you'd put that into
# [19:12] <timeless> ... that you'd count a ratio
# [19:12] <timeless> ... authors can create nice experiences or crazy jarry
# [19:12] * hober thinks a jarring "enter fullscreen" experience is a QoI issue with your implementation...
# [19:12] <timeless> ... useful to do what they want to do
# [19:12] <timeless> ... you'll get horrendous experiences
# [19:12] <timeless> ... that seems to be a minimal
# [19:12] <timeless> ... thing we don't want to specify
# [19:12] <timeless> ... and b lets people do what they want
# [19:13] <timeless> israelh: more of a potential interop
# [19:13] <timeless> ... would be great to say
# [19:13] <timeless> ... we agree it doesn't really matter
# [19:13] <timeless> ... doesn't matter on size of screen
# [19:13] <timeless> ... maybe there's a suggestion, as a note
# [19:13] <timeless> ... for certain sizes
# [19:13] <timeless> tantek_: key thing is
# [19:13] <timeless> ... to capture there might be an issue between interaction of these two apis
# [19:13] <timeless> ... i'd invite people to submit user scenario
# [19:13] <timeless> ... where user goes through some number of steps
# [19:14] <timeless> ... altering orientation / entering fullscreen
# [19:14] <timeless> ... and gets confused
# [19:14] <timeless> ... if that happens, we can document that
# [19:14] * Joins: garykac (~garykac@public.cloak)
# [19:14] <timeless> ... as informative advice for apps to avoid
# [19:14] <timeless> ... sound reasonable?
# [19:14] <timeless> israelh: yes
# [19:14] <timeless> chaals: not expected to be finished this week
# [19:15] <timeless> ... anyone have update on testing/implementation status?
# [19:15] <timeless> chaals: Streams API
# [19:15] <timeless> ... mounir?
# [19:15] <timeless> MikeSmith: what happened to other guy?
# [19:15] <timeless> ArtB: Feras is Streams
# [19:15] <timeless> adrianba: i understand there's a discussion of Streams on the list
# [19:15] <timeless> ... i need to have a look at that
# [19:16] <timeless> ... we're using the Stream API in MSE
# [19:16] <timeless> ... i understand there was some discussion of it in WebCrypto earlier this week
# [19:16] <timeless> israelh: yes
# [19:16] <timeless> adrianba: we've implemented this
# [19:16] <timeless> ... it's possible there could be more discussion in the File discussion
# [19:16] <timeless> ArtB: any other implementations of Streams API?
# [19:16] <timeless> MikeSmith: google's working on one
# [19:16] <timeless> ... or, i have some reason to believe they may be working on one
# [19:17] * Ms2ger didn't hear anything
# [19:17] <timeless> ... perhaps someone who works for Google could comment?
# [19:17] <timeless> darobin: i think fake_alex_russel
# [19:17] <timeless> s/russel/russell/
# [19:17] <timeless> chaals: URL will be in Admin
# [19:17] <timeless> ... Manifest format, we have w/ AppCache
# [19:17] <hober> s/fake_alex_russell/@FakeAlexRussell/
# [19:17] <timeless> ... Web Components - give dglazkov
# [19:18] <timeless> ... WebIDL - we have scheduled
# [19:18] <timeless> ... Web Intents?
# [19:18] <timeless> bryan: just wondering if those involved would be present
# [19:18] <timeless> ... to have an update
# [19:18] <timeless> ... on status / convergence of Intents/Activities
# [19:18] <timeless> ArtB: DAP was what was driving this
# [19:18] <timeless> ... my understanding is it isn't active
# [19:19] <mounir> sicking might have updates for you guys
# [19:19] <timeless> chaals: does Firefox OS have any skin in this game
# [19:19] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@public.cloak)
# [19:19] <timeless> sicking: we had meetings w/ Google on Intents/Activities
# [19:19] <timeless> ... and sent a report to the list
# [19:19] <timeless> ... nothing has happened since
# [19:19] <timeless> ... we need to experiment with implementations to figure out what experiences are good
# [19:19] <timeless> ... and then figure out apis to do that
# [19:19] <timeless> ... we can't do apis until we figure out experiences
# [19:20] <timeless> bryan: we have at least Beta/Aurora of activities?
# [19:20] <timeless> sicking: we have soon to be shipping implementations of Activities in a very narrow scenario
# [19:20] <timeless> ... only on mobile-small screen
# [19:20] <timeless> ... only for Apps
# [19:20] <timeless> ... to be Activity Handlers
# [19:20] <timeless> ... it doesn't work on desktop
# [19:20] <timeless> ... it doesn't allow pages to be handlers
# [19:20] <timeless> ... we need to solve those issues
# [19:20] <timeless> chaals: why doesn't?
# [19:21] <timeless> sicking: UX issues are different
# [19:21] <timeless> ... on mobile you only have one app running at a time
# [19:21] <timeless> ... on desktop you have multiple displayed apps
# [19:21] <timeless> chaals: you turned it off?
# [19:21] <timeless> sicking: we could do the existing behavior, but it would be bad
# [19:21] <timeless> bryan: to move that forward?
# [19:21] <timeless> ... it's a joint TF of DAP/WebApps
# [19:21] <timeless> ... it'd be great to get other eyes around those user interface issues
# [19:22] <timeless> ... could we have those issues on a wiki?
# [19:22] <timeless> ... something to understand what that UX is and provide input
# [19:22] <timeless> ... i understood it as an area
# [19:22] <timeless> ... that would involve Protocol / Content Handler capabilities?
# [19:22] <timeless> sicking: too many unknowns
# [19:22] <timeless> ArtB: my assumption is that if it's important to someone, they'll put resources to drive it forward
# [19:22] <timeless> chaals: except DOM4
# [19:22] <timeless> ArtB: Web Messaging
# [19:23] <timeless> ... i think we have agreement on a set of tests
# [19:23] <timeless> ... Alex said he'd run interop testing on IE + Opera
# [19:23] <timeless> krisk: Kris K, Microsoft
# [19:23] <timeless> ... from our private testing, we know two browsers pass each test across the board
# [19:23] <timeless> ... should discuss how we should submit them
# [19:23] <timeless> ... we should be able to move to REC
# [19:24] <timeless> ... if browser vendors could click the links
# [19:24] <timeless> ArtB: you're talking about all submitted tests?
# [19:24] <timeless> krisk: all in Mercurial Approved
# [19:24] <timeless> ... there's the move from Mercurial to Github
# [19:24] <timeless> chaals: ready to declare victory
# [19:24] <timeless> ArtB: would be nice to get a WebKit status
# [19:24] <timeless> ... anyone want to run the tests?
# [19:24] <timeless> chaals: I've got a webkit browser
# [19:25] <timeless> ArtB: anyone i could get from Mozilla to run through the tests?
# [19:25] <timeless> sicking: probably
# [19:25] <timeless> ... i don't know
# [19:25] <timeless> ArtB: i'll talk to smaug
# [19:25] <timeless> ... that's great
# [19:25] <timeless> ... so we could move to PR real soon
# [19:25] <timeless> krisk: correct
# [19:25] <timeless> ArtB: Web Sockets
# [19:25] <timeless> ... similar
# [19:25] <timeless> ... we have agreed on a set of tests from Opera+Microsoft
# [19:25] <timeless> ... krisk ?
# [19:25] <timeless> krisk: Ms2ger also submitted tests
# [19:25] <timeless> ... we have a lot of tests now, >500 total
# [19:26] <timeless> ... bad news, we have 4 tests that only pass in one browser
# [19:26] <timeless> ... bummer
# [19:26] <timeless> ... handful of tests that i believe are just broken
# [19:26] <timeless> ... either fix or remove
# [19:26] <timeless> ... that's where it's at
# [19:26] <timeless> krisk: we should wait until tomorrow
# [19:26] <timeless> ArtB: Web Storage?
# [19:26] <timeless> ... PR
# [19:26] <timeless> ... blocking REC is normative reference issues
# [19:26] <timeless> ArtB: Workers
# [19:27] <timeless> ... i would have said we had an approved test suite
# [19:27] <timeless> ... and then simon said wait wait
# [19:27] <timeless> ... he's adding tests
# [19:27] <timeless> ... he feels test suite isn't 100%
# [19:27] <timeless> ... i assume he'll add those tests in several weeks
# [19:27] <timeless> ... testing in May/June?
# [19:27] * Joins: jeffh (~d871a880@public.cloak)
# [19:27] <timeless> krisk: simon last fall agreed to take on test suite
# [19:27] <timeless> ... and he added shared workers tests
# [19:27] <timeless> ... i think there's more work to do
# [19:28] <timeless> ArtB: shared workers wasn't broadly implemented last fall?
# [19:28] <timeless> Travis: i think there are at least two implementations
# [19:28] <timeless> ArtB: i have an action to push simon to complete his contributions
# [19:28] <timeless> chaals: XHR is scheduled
# [19:28] <timeless> [ Break ]
# [19:29] <timeless> garykac: UI events aren't on PubStatus
# [19:29] <timeless> ArtB: Pointer Events has a dependency on UI Events
# [19:29] <timeless> ... i meant to ask about getting a FPWD
# [19:29] <timeless> ... are we ready to publish that?
# [19:29] <timeless> garykac: we should talk about that today
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# [19:30] <timeless> Travis: i'll add it to pubstatus
# [19:30] <timeless> garykac: for a number of months, it's in a good state
# [19:30] <timeless> ... i'm concerned about keyboard events
# [19:30] <timeless> ... there's an event that specifies locale
# [19:30] <timeless> s//[ Break ]/
# [19:30] <timeless> ArtB: is there a bugzilla component?
# [19:30] <timeless> ... i'll check that
# [19:30] <timeless> ... should we start a CfC?
# [19:30] <timeless> garykac: sounds good
# [19:31] <ArtB> ACTION: barstow start a CfC for FPWD of UI Events (and make sure it has a Bugzilla component)
# [19:31] * RRSAgent records action 8
# [19:31] * @trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [19:31] <@trackbot> Created ACTION-682 - Start a CfC for FPWD of UI Events (and make sure it has a Bugzilla component) [on Arthur Barstow - due 2013-05-02].
# [19:31] <timeless> chaals: anything else we've forgotten?
# [19:31] <timeless> ArtB: next up is AppCache/App Manifest
# [19:31] <timeless> [ Break ]
# [19:31] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [19:31] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [19:31] <jeff> Present+ Jeff
# [19:31] * timeless present+ First_Last if you aren't in present
# [19:31] <Travis> Present+ Travis
# [19:32] <plh> Presen+ plh
# [19:32] <lyle> present+ Lyle
# [19:32] <jeff> present+ plh
# [19:32] <adrianba> present+ krisk
# [19:32] <dgrogan_cloud> present+ David_Grogan
# [19:32] <timeless> present+ Daniel_Austin
# [19:32] <dgrogan_cloud> present+ Alec_Flett
# [19:32] <timeless> s/corry_johnson: corry johson/Corey_Johnson: Corey_Johnson/
# [19:32] <ArtB> Present+ Corey_Johnson(GitHub), Matt_Todd(GitHub)
# [19:33] <timeless> s/mat_tod: mat tod/Matt_Todd: Matt Todd/
# [19:33] <jsbell> present+ Joshua_Bell
# [19:33] <timeless> s/Corey_Johnson: Corey_Johnson/Corey_Johnson: Corey Johnson/
# [19:33] <lyle> Present+ Lyle_Troxell(4D)
# [19:33] * Ms2ger [Laughing track]
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# [19:52] <timeless> topic: App Manifest
# [19:52] <timeless> sicking: as you may or may not know
# [19:52] * Quits: lyle (~lyle@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [19:52] <timeless> ... there's a SysApps WG in W3C
# [19:52] * Joins: lyle (~lyle@public.cloak)
# [19:52] <timeless> ... totally different from WebApps
# [19:52] <timeless> ... one of the things we're working on is creating an App Platform similar to Widgets
# [19:52] <timeless> ... same UCs
# [19:52] <timeless> ... but different set of solutions
# [19:52] * chaals notes they do totally different stuff to widgets... in so far as it is called app and not widget
# [19:52] <timeless> ... something we'd like is get input from this WG
# [19:53] <timeless> ... we'd like to make something based on the web
# [19:53] <timeless> ... not just use the same JS APIs
# [19:53] <timeless> ... and Markup language
# [19:53] <timeless> ... but also have the same Design principles
# [19:53] <ArtB> ACTION: barstow work with Alex and Chaals re interop data for Web Messaging
# [19:53] * RRSAgent records action 9
# [19:53] * @trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [19:53] <@trackbot> Created ACTION-683 - Work with Alex and Chaals re interop data for Web Messaging [on Arthur Barstow - due 2013-05-02].
# [19:53] <timeless> ... the companies in SysApps are from a different background
# [19:53] <timeless> ... we'd like to
# [19:53] <timeless> ... um, eh
# [19:53] <timeless> ... we have a Manifest specification
# [19:53] <JonathanJ> http://manifest.sysapps.org/
# [19:53] <timeless> ... and a Runtime specification
# [19:53] <JonathanJ> http://runtime.sysapps.org/
# [19:54] <timeless> ... the latest EDs of the specs
# [19:54] <timeless> ... the specs are living in Github and we use Github to track issues
# [19:54] <timeless> ... we're proposing
# [19:54] <timeless> ... to create a joint deliverable w/ this WG
# [19:54] <timeless> ... at the very least for the Manifest specification
# [19:54] * Quits: davidb (~davidb@public.cloak) (davidb)
# [19:54] <timeless> ... we think there are a lot of uses for Manifest specification
# [19:54] <timeless> ... outside of the SysApps
# [19:54] <timeless> ... it solves the same UCs
# [19:55] <timeless> ... similar to what apple's meta tags
# [19:55] <timeless> ... if the User bookmarks this to the homescreen
# [19:55] <timeless> ... the name of the icon, the icon
# [19:55] <timeless> ... it's similar to AppCache
# [19:55] <timeless> ... things to startup
# [19:55] <timeless> ... this Manifest ties together existing pieces
# [19:55] <timeless> ... there's app specific things (permissions)
# [19:56] <timeless> ... we could remove that, and move them into other specifications
# [19:56] <timeless> ... we'd like to standardize this so we could have `bookmark to homepage`
# [19:56] <timeless> ... and so you could build other experiences
# [19:56] <timeless> ... Chrome has Miniature tabs
# [19:56] <timeless> ... FirefoxOS has app tabs
# [19:56] <timeless> ... when the user says `make this into an app tab`, you could grab info from the manifest
# [19:57] <timeless> ... use icons and appcache info from the manifest
# [19:57] <timeless> ... there's a lot that isn't app specific
# [19:57] <timeless> ... want to create richer experience for web sites
# [19:57] <hober> q?
# [19:57] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:57] <timeless> ... without having to make an app
# [19:57] <hober> q+
# [19:57] * Zakim sees hober on the speaker queue
# [19:57] <tantek_> Aside: Firefox's mini tabs are called "Pinned Tabs": http://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/pinned-tabs-keep-favorite-websites-open
# [19:57] <timeless> ... we believe this is already chartered
# [19:57] <chaals> q+
# [19:57] * Zakim sees hober, chaals on the speaker queue
# [19:57] <timeless> ... based on work already done by widgets
# [19:57] <timeless> ... this is the feature set we're trying to solve
# [19:57] <timeless> ... this integrates nicely w/ AppCache
# [19:58] <timeless> q?
# [19:58] * Zakim sees hober, chaals on the speaker queue
# [19:58] <timeless> ack hober
# [19:58] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
# [19:58] <timeless> hober: i wanted to quickly +1 the UCs
# [19:58] <timeless> ... for a standard manifest format
# [19:58] <timeless> ... extending beyond the non web sandbox of sysapps
# [19:58] <tantek_> "Pinned Tabs allow you to always keep your favorite web apps like Facebook, Gmail and Twitter open and just a click away." - from cited URL.
# [19:58] <timeless> ... and not all browsers are participating there
# [19:58] <timeless> ack chaals
# [19:58] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:58] <timeless> chaals: i believe this is chartered, because i wrote this into the charter
# [19:58] <timeless> ... back when we said yeah
# [19:58] <timeless> ... and i said no
# [19:58] <timeless> s/i/you/
# [19:58] <timeless> ... so welcome back
# [19:58] <timeless> sicking: we always wanted to do this
# [19:59] * Ms2ger didn't hear that
# [19:59] * darobin Ms2ger!
# [20:00] <timeless> ArtB: chaals is right that
# [20:00] <timeless> ... the manifest draft on the screen is within scope
# [20:00] <timeless> ... but it is not identified as a joint deliverable with sysapps
# [20:00] <timeless> ... it makes sense to collaborate
# [20:00] <JonathanJ> http://www.w3.org/wiki/System_Applications_WG:_Manifest
# [20:00] * Ms2ger waves at darobin
# [20:00] <timeless> ... maybe Eve / plh could give feedback
# [20:00] * Quits: JaeChung (~JaeChung@public.cloak) ("http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client")
# [20:00] <plh> s/Eve/Yves/
# [20:00] <timeless> ... can we discuss on public-webapps w/o explicitly updating the charter?
# [20:01] * Joins: davidb (~davidb@public.cloak)
# [20:01] <timeless> ... we know in the past
# [20:01] <timeless> ... adding new deliverables to WebApps has raised issues for members because of the IP commitment
# [20:01] <timeless> ... in this case, i think it's ok
# [20:01] <timeless> ... because it looks like what we have
# [20:01] <timeless> ... if we go down this path, we'd need a CfC
# [20:01] <timeless> ... so far, i've heard hober say it's reasonable
# [20:01] <timeless> ... we haven't heard anyone else
# [20:01] <timeless> ... anyone else
# [20:01] <timeless> chaals: Yandex would like to make it a joint deliverable
# [20:02] <timeless> bryan: we'd support it being a joint deliverable
# [20:02] <timeless> ... the needs of web apps and installable are overlapped
# [20:02] <timeless> ArtB: seeing no other feedback
# [20:02] <timeless> ... maybe, we'll craft a CfC
# [20:02] <timeless> ... use current draft as our guide
# [20:02] <timeless> ... sicking asked about permissions
# [20:02] <lyle> lyle: we'd support it being a joint deliverable (4D)
# [20:02] <chaals> ACTION: chaals to make a CfC for joint work with sysapps on webapp manifests
# [20:02] * RRSAgent records action 10
# [20:02] * @trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [20:02] <@trackbot> Created ACTION-684 - Make a CfC for joint work with sysapps on webapp manifests [on Charles McCathie Nevile - due 2013-05-02].
# [20:02] <timeless> ... we could use the CfC to gauge whether that's too far
# [20:02] <timeless> plh: why joint deliverable?
# [20:02] <timeless> ... maybe darobin or MikeSmith could
# [20:03] * Joins: JF (~JF@public.cloak)
# [20:03] <timeless> ArtB: this isn't AppCache
# [20:03] <timeless> q?
# [20:03] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:03] * plh goes back to sleep :)
# [20:03] <sicking> q+
# [20:03] * Zakim sees sicking on the speaker queue
# [20:03] * Parts: JF (~JF@public.cloak)
# [20:03] <timeless> MikeSmith: as someone who has to deal w/ administrative hassle of joint deliverables
# [20:03] <timeless> ... please don't make me do it
# [20:03] <timeless> ... i don't see it getting us more IP
# [20:03] <timeless> chaals: other alternative is to move the spec into this group
# [20:03] <timeless> ... it's on our list of deliverables
# [20:04] * Joins: arun (~arun@public.cloak)
# [20:04] <timeless> sicking: i'm fine w/ moving it from SysApps to this group
# [20:04] <timeless> ... in SysApps, we'd have to define extensions, but we'd have to do that anyway
# [20:04] <timeless> ... it's a question we haven't raised in the SysApps WG, but we'd have to raise it
# [20:04] <chaals> ack si
# [20:04] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:04] <timeless> ... it's an option
# [20:04] * darobin since when does WebApps ask other groups whether they agree to have their deliverables highjacked?
# [20:04] <timeless> ArtB: so that's a CfC to make WebApps sole owner?
# [20:04] * Joins: JaeChung (~JaeChung@public.cloak)
# [20:04] * arun teehee
# [20:04] <timeless> chaals: we don't need a CfC
# [20:05] <timeless> ... imagine a chair of SysApps was around
# [20:05] <timeless> ... how do you feel about the idea?
# [20:05] <timeless> wonsuk: i think that in case of SysApps WG
# [20:05] <timeless> ... we already made a decision to propose a TF w/ WebApps
# [20:05] * Joins: Jin_Peng (~Jin_Peng@public.cloak)
# [20:05] <timeless> ... in aspect of SysApps WG there are no objection
# [20:05] <timeless> ... not sure how can we make a TF
# [20:05] <timeless> ... do we need to make a different mailing list?
# [20:05] <timeless> ... and wiki page
# [20:05] * Quits: JaeChung (~JaeChung@public.cloak) ("http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client")
# [20:05] <timeless> chaals: this is the thing
# [20:06] <timeless> ... if we make a joint TF, there's a lot of admin to do
# [20:06] <timeless> ... the suggestion is to JUST do Manifest in WebApps
# [20:06] <timeless> ... and SysApps says we've given it away
# [20:06] <timeless> ... but do you think that would be something the SysApps group might be happy with?
# [20:06] * Joins: JaeChung (~JaeChung@public.cloak)
# [20:06] <timeless> wonsuk: i think so
# [20:06] <timeless> ArtB: anyone have any issues with that?
# [20:06] <timeless> [ None ]
# [20:06] <timeless> ArtB: working assumption is WebApps will work on this
# [20:07] <timeless> ... is marcosc in WebApps?
# [20:07] <timeless> Yves: yes
# [20:07] <timeless> sicking: a more controversial proposal
# [20:07] <timeless> ... the same thing, but for runtime spec
# [20:07] <timeless> ... for same reasons
# [20:07] <timeless> ... we have the runtime spec
# [20:07] <timeless> ... which defines concept of apps, small api for interacting
# [20:07] * Quits: jeff (jeff@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [20:07] <timeless> ... i don't think we'd want to move that to WebApps
# [20:07] <hober> q+
# [20:07] * Zakim sees hober on the speaker queue
# [20:08] <timeless> ... i think it would be interesting to do as a joint Deliverable
# [20:08] <timeless> ... i can imagine people don't like that
# [20:08] <timeless> chaals: you'd have to talk to MikeSmith
# [20:08] <timeless> q?
# [20:08] * Zakim sees hober on the speaker queue
# [20:08] <timeless> ack hober
# [20:08] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:08] <timeless> hober: i'd rather not do that
# [20:08] <timeless> ArtB: i'd expect there'd be other objections from Members
# [20:08] <timeless> sicking: it seems to me that it falls under the same widget charter
# [20:08] <timeless> ... but
# [20:09] <timeless> ... i understand
# [20:09] <timeless> ... this is why i brought it up separately and after
# [20:09] <timeless> ... but i'd still like more webby input
# [20:09] <timeless> chaals: so you're recruiting people to do sysapps
# [20:09] <timeless> ... work
# [20:09] <timeless> ... and then dropping the actual work
# [20:09] <timeless> sicking: you say that, as if it's a bad thing
# [20:09] <timeless> [ laughter ]
# [20:09] <abraud> present+ Arnaud_Braud
# [20:09] <timeless> chaals: i think the current charter would permit it
# [20:09] <timeless> ... if you just do it, you might surface objections
# [20:09] <timeless> ... the current charter doesn't say we'll do joint work
# [20:10] <timeless> ... if we try to do that, you'll provide a nice opportunity to give their opinion on the distribution of resources
# [20:10] <timeless> sicking: i'll drop the subject
# [20:10] <timeless> Topic: AppCache
# [20:10] <timeless> sicking: i sent a proposal to webapps@
# [20:10] <timeless> ... about a very different AppCache than what we currently have
# [20:10] <timeless> ... based on discussion over years
# [20:10] <ArtB> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2013JanMar/0977.html -> Jonas' AppCache proposal
# [20:11] <timeless> ... i received input, not a lot, but more than i could keep up w/
# [20:11] <timeless> ... two questions
# [20:11] <timeless> s/->//
# [20:11] <timeless> s/http/-> http/
# [20:11] <timeless> ... 1. is this group still interested in this?
# [20:11] <timeless> ... 2. which implementations would be interested in doing this?
# [20:11] <timeless> ... which implementations want to do an updated appcache
# [20:11] <timeless> ... which would be interested
# [20:11] * Quits: virginie_ (~virginie@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [20:12] <timeless> ... there's also separate work in github on a NavigationController, which is a different way of solving the problem
# [20:12] <timeless> ... my intent was to have both, with an interaction between the two
# [20:12] <timeless> ... the second question is
# [20:12] <timeless> ... should we have a declarative format at all
# [20:12] <timeless> ... or only a Script based (NavigationControlleR)
# [20:12] <timeless> ... there's work to fix the performance
# [20:12] <timeless> s/R/r/
# [20:12] <chaals> q+
# [20:12] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
# [20:12] <lyle> present+ Lyle_Troxell
# [20:12] <timeless> ... there's some concept of a manifest
# [20:12] <timeless> ... it's a big question
# [20:13] <timeless> ... A. who's interested in working on something like the New AppCache?
# [20:13] <timeless> ... B. if we do new AppCache, entirely Script based, or something declarative?
# [20:13] <timeless> ack chaals
# [20:13] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:13] <timeless> chaals: we want to do something
# [20:13] <JonathanJ> rrsagent, draft minutes
# [20:13] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-minutes.html JonathanJ
# [20:13] <timeless> ... the stuff we're pushing to implement is likely to be script based
# [20:13] <timeless> ... but it seems like it'd be nice to have a declarative backing
# [20:13] <timeless> ... a lot of UCs aren't amazingly complicated
# [20:14] <timeless> ... making a declarative approach available makes it easier
# [20:14] <timeless> israelh: i think a declarative approach should continue to be supported
# [20:14] <timeless> ... if only for backwards compat w/ simple sites
# [20:14] <timeless> ... a scripting approach is needed
# [20:14] <timeless> ... the ability to allow those interact
# [20:14] <timeless> ... it's just about how to define them
# [20:15] <timeless> sicking: MS's input on this is sort of needed
# [20:15] <timeless> ... the way the script based thing is heading, it doesn't have a declarative part at all
# [20:15] <timeless> ... if it's something that's important to you guys, i'd urge you to voice that opinion
# [20:15] <timeless> ... i believe declarative is important
# [20:15] <timeless> ... i have a concern that declarative solves so few UCs that it isn't useful
# [20:16] <timeless> israelh: there are things in the issues outlined
# [20:16] * Quits: JaeChung (~JaeChung@public.cloak) ("http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client")
# [20:16] <timeless> ... that we have resolved w/ proprietary tags
# [20:16] <timeless> ... that were requested by internal properties
# [20:16] <timeless> ... like caching master entry
# [20:16] <timeless> ... you create a relationship, but don't cache master entry
# [20:16] <adrianba> q+
# [20:16] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [20:16] * Joins: JaeChung (~JaeChung@public.cloak)
# [20:16] <timeless> ... we already have a large property that actually uses this
# [20:16] <timeless> ... IndexedDB and AppCache to work offline
# [20:16] <timeless> ... it goes back to what scenarios
# [20:17] <timeless> ... there are scenarios in which this does work
# [20:17] <timeless> ... maybe they aren't as interesting anymore
# [20:17] <timeless> ... but they're existing apps
# [20:17] <timeless> ... i keep hearing about wild UCs
# [20:17] <timeless> ... we need to be specific about what UCs aren't solved by this
# [20:17] <timeless> ... that are solved by something else
# [20:17] <chaals> ack as
# [20:17] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [20:17] <timeless> adrianba: we've talked for a while about the issues
# [20:17] <chaals> ack adr
# [20:17] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:17] <timeless> ... can we evolve our way to a solution
# [20:17] <timeless> ... or do we do something new?
# [20:18] <timeless> ... i think doing something new is
# [20:18] <timeless> ... the approach that sicking is suggesting
# [20:18] <timeless> ... and something we should embrace
# [20:18] <timeless> ... the one question i had was
# [20:18] <timeless> ... whether we should look at something entirely separate from what's there currently
# [20:18] <timeless> ... it wasn't clear whether the proposal would ignore the manifest attribute
# [20:18] <timeless> ... that was the old approach, and we're doing something separate
# [20:19] <timeless> ... i was thinking we'd have similar entrypoints
# [20:19] <timeless> ... but the format and rules would be different
# [20:19] <timeless> ... discuss pros/cons of that
# [20:19] <timeless> sicking: my vision w/ this proposal
# [20:19] <timeless> ... was to enable supporting back compat
# [20:19] <timeless> ... enable web sites to support the old format
# [20:20] <timeless> ... and take advantage of browsers supporting the new format
# [20:20] <timeless> ... invent a new attribute that links to the new manifest
# [20:20] <timeless> ... apps could list both attributes
# [20:20] <timeless> ... or only new or only old
# [20:20] <timeless> sicking: it is definitely a
# [20:20] <timeless> ... replacement, but enabling websites/implementations to have a transition
# [20:20] <adrianba> q+
# [20:20] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [20:20] <timeless> ... and to keep supporting the old stuff for as long as useful
# [20:21] <timeless> chaals: it's said that AppCache perfectly supports its UCs
# [20:21] <timeless> ... "and that's the problem"
# [20:21] <israelh> q+
# [20:21] * Zakim sees adrianba, israelh on the speaker queue
# [20:21] <timeless> ... it's important to lay out the UCs that we're trying to deal w/
# [20:21] <timeless> ... we set out UCs
# [20:21] <timeless> ... some of this isn't pure offline stuff
# [20:21] <timeless> ... it's optimization of the network
# [20:21] <timeless> ... most of the network in Russia is crappy
# [20:21] <timeless> ... that's important to work with
# [20:21] <timeless> ... here are UCs we'd like to enable
# [20:22] <timeless> ... we've all got ideas in our head
# [20:22] <timeless> q+ sicking
# [20:22] * Zakim sees adrianba, israelh, sicking on the speaker queue
# [20:22] <timeless> sicking: paul backus, of zynga started a thread
# [20:22] <timeless> ... i got feedback from others
# [20:22] <timeless> ... it'd be useful to list UCs
# [20:22] <timeless> ... and how this proposal solves the UCs
# [20:22] <timeless> ... and include sample manifests
# [20:22] <timeless> ... i'm planning on writing that up
# [20:22] <timeless> ... which hopefully will help
# [20:23] <timeless> ... i still think we have the large question of
# [20:23] <timeless> ... should we do this declarative solution
# [20:23] <timeless> ... script base solves everything
# [20:23] <timeless> ... it may have perf issues
# [20:23] <timeless> ... but they're probably solvable
# [20:23] <timeless> ... we should spend time looking at UCs
# [20:23] <timeless> ... and see how it matches them
# [20:23] <timeless> ack adrianba
# [20:23] * Zakim sees israelh, sicking on the speaker queue
# [20:23] <timeless> adrianba: 3 points
# [20:23] <timeless> ... 1. we talked about this a bunch
# [20:24] <timeless> ... we've all experienced problems w/ the original appcache proposal
# [20:24] <timeless> ... we want to fix it
# [20:24] <timeless> ... this is a great starting point
# [20:24] <timeless> ... we should write it more formally
# [20:24] <timeless> ... we'd be happy to help w/ that
# [20:24] <timeless> ... part of that should be gathering together those UCs
# [20:24] <timeless> ... it's a great suggestion to take UCs and show examples of how to satisfy
# [20:24] <timeless> ... gathering into a document would be great
# [20:24] <timeless> ... 2. probably some charter work to do to make it possible
# [20:25] <timeless> ... we started that work at TPAC
# [20:25] <timeless> ... given this is
# [20:25] <timeless> ... different enough from the current AppCache
# [20:25] <timeless> ... and we aren't talking about modifying AppCache
# [20:25] <timeless> ... i'm less concerned about talking w/ HTML WG
# [20:25] <timeless> ... 3. we made some substantial engineering investments in supporting the original appcache
# [20:26] <timeless> ... manage caches, keep those files, know when to purge them
# [20:26] <timeless> ... we don't want to do that again
# [20:26] <timeless> ... we'd like to see how much we can make work w/ this
# [20:26] <timeless> ... that might impose constraints
# [20:26] <timeless> ack israelh
# [20:26] * Zakim sees sicking on the speaker queue
# [20:26] <timeless> israelh: in the past
# [20:26] <timeless> ... when we tried to make progress w/ the existing manifest
# [20:26] <timeless> ... there was controversy about UCs
# [20:26] <timeless> ... it was offline only
# [20:26] <timeless> ... being open
# [20:26] <timeless> ... about transactional boundaries
# [20:26] <timeless> ... are issues we'll have to figure out
# [20:27] <timeless> ... to make it map to the engine we have now
# [20:27] <timeless> chaals: there's a nice seat next to arun
# [20:27] <timeless> sicking: i have this naive hope
# [20:27] * arun waves
# [20:27] <timeless> ... it sounds one of the things the existing AppCache did
# [20:27] <timeless> ... the transactional approach
# [20:27] <timeless> ... to go from one to another
# [20:27] <timeless> ... it's hard to say at this stage
# [20:28] <timeless> ... at mozilla, we don't have that problem
# [20:28] <timeless> ... our existing impl is so crappy
# [20:28] <timeless> ... that we have to rewrite it anyway
# [20:28] <timeless> [ laughter ]
# [20:28] <dgrogan_cloud> q?
# [20:28] * Zakim sees sicking on the speaker queue
# [20:28] <timeless> sicking: the way it goes away, we're happy
# [20:28] * Quits: JaeChung (~JaeChung@public.cloak) ("http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client")
# [20:28] <timeless> ... it's not entirely by accident
# [20:28] <timeless> ... the intent is that we can use the same manifest i was talking about before
# [20:28] <timeless> ... they use the same linking mechanism
# [20:28] <timeless> ... icon:, name:, cache:
# [20:28] * Joins: JaeChung (~JaeChung@public.cloak)
# [20:29] <timeless> ... that would work much better than the current Manifest specification
# [20:29] <timeless> ... that links to separate items
# [20:29] <timeless> chaals: i put a note to myself to talk about this for Chartering discussion
# [20:29] <timeless> ... when you say help
# [20:29] <timeless> ... you were going to offer an editor
# [20:29] <timeless> adrianba: ...
# [20:30] <timeless> ArtB: i heard a need for UCs
# [20:30] <timeless> ... sicking, does that response address UCs?
# [20:30] <timeless> ... do we need volunteers?
# [20:30] <timeless> sicking: there's work to be done
# [20:30] <timeless> ... i'll send the UCs we had in mind
# [20:30] <timeless> ... there's more work
# [20:30] <timeless> ... this is the main case where the existing AppCache fell down
# [20:31] <timeless> ... i think this is the way to prove/disprove that the declarative proposal will work
# [20:31] <timeless> ArtB: we could ask paul to contribute
# [20:31] <timeless> ... anyone else willing to contribute UCs?
# [20:31] <timeless> adrianba: yes
# [20:31] <timeless> ArtB: chaals, i saw you raise your hand
# [20:31] * Zakim timeless, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
# [20:31] * timeless @?#@?$#@%@$
# [20:31] <timeless> sicking: i can't be the editor
# [20:32] <timeless> ArtB: nice to know we have interest in doing things
# [20:32] * timeless ah `hand`
# [20:32] <timeless> ... we can ask for leads, or helpers
# [20:32] <timeless> chaals: we could perhaps get a helper
# [20:32] <timeless> ... not sure about a lead
# [20:32] <timeless> ... the people i'm thinking of
# [20:32] <marcosc> zakim, passcode?
# [20:32] <Zakim> the conference code is 92323 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), marcosc
# [20:32] <timeless> adrianba: i don't think we're in a position to make a commitment
# [20:32] <timeless> ... want to help
# [20:32] <timeless> ... w/ formal writing down of UCs
# [20:33] <timeless> .... to make sure we capture those
# [20:33] <timeless> ... we have some of that written down
# [20:33] <chaals> q+ marcos to volunteer?
# [20:33] * Zakim sees sicking, marcos on the speaker queue
# [20:33] <timeless> ... transcribing it isn't much extra work
# [20:33] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [20:33] <timeless> ... getting things from MS about what worked/failed
# [20:33] <timeless> ... capturing that
# [20:33] <chaals> zakim, [ipcaller is myVictim
# [20:33] <Zakim> +myVictim; got it
# [20:33] <timeless> ... we think this is going in the right direction
# [20:33] * chaals oops
# [20:33] <marcosc> zakim, IPcaller is me
# [20:33] <Zakim> sorry, marcosc, I do not recognize a party named 'IPcaller'
# [20:33] <chaals> zakim, myVictim is Marcos
# [20:33] <Zakim> +Marcos; got it
# [20:33] * Yves zak1m, pick a victim
# [20:33] <timeless> ArtB: makes sense
# [20:34] <timeless> marcosc: hello
# [20:34] * Ms2ger waves at marcosc
# [20:34] <timeless> ArtB: we have an action that marcosc will be editing appcache?
# [20:34] <timeless> marcosc: no
# [20:34] <timeless> [ break ]
# [20:36] * Quits: garykac (~garykac@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [20:38] * Quits: lyle (~lyle@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [20:40] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@public.cloak) ("Lost terminal")
# [20:40] <timeless> Topic: Indexed DB
# [20:41] <timeless> jsbell: on the agenda was going over open bugs
# [20:41] <timeless> ... and LC tracking
# [20:41] <timeless> ... let's do LC tracking first
# [20:41] <ArtB> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/IndexedDB/raw-file/tip/Overview.html -> Indexed DB ED
# [20:41] <timeless> s/->//
# [20:41] <jsbell> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/IndexedDB/raw-file/tip/IndexedDB%20Disposition%20of%20Comments.html
# [20:41] <timeless> s/http:/-> http://
# [20:41] <timeless> s/https/-> https/
# [20:42] * Joins: garykac (~garykac@public.cloak)
# [20:42] <timeless> s/html/html Disposition of Comments/
# [20:42] * Joins: lyle (~lyle@public.cloak)
# [20:42] <timeless> jsbell: lots of green
# [20:42] <timeless> ... most aren't normative changes
# [20:42] <timeless> ... but we should probably do another LC
# [20:42] <timeless> chaals: TBD here?
# [20:42] * Joins: jeff (jeff@public.cloak)
# [20:42] <timeless> eliot: i should probably change TBD to something more appropriate
# [20:42] <timeless> ... that was placeholder text from a table shepazu used
# [20:43] <timeless> ... there's no response from those people
# [20:43] * marcosc also likes to blame shepazu for things :)
# [20:43] <timeless> ... i could change TBD to NA/blank
# [20:43] <timeless> chaals: limit of time for response
# [20:43] <ArtB> ACTION: eliot update IDB LC comment tracking document to replace "TBD" with something more descriptive
# [20:43] * RRSAgent records action 11
# [20:43] * @trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [20:43] <timeless> ... don't wait forever
# [20:43] <@trackbot> Created ACTION-685 - Update IDB LC comment tracking document to replace "TBD" with something more descriptive [on Eliot Graff - due 2013-05-02].
# [20:43] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [20:43] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [20:43] <timeless> jsbell: seeing a few nods for going to another LC
# [20:43] <timeless> chaals: seems reasonable
# [20:43] <timeless> israelh: one of the questions we have
# [20:44] <timeless> ... it seems a lot of the comments we made
# [20:44] <timeless> ... have been integrated into implementations
# [20:44] <timeless> q+ chaals
# [20:44] * Zakim sees sicking, marcos, chaals on the speaker queue
# [20:44] <timeless> ... i haven't heard of new implementations
# [20:44] <timeless> ... i haven't heard of things that will invalidate
# [20:44] <timeless> ... are things discussed in email
# [20:44] <timeless> ... that we haven't brought back to the spec
# [20:44] <timeless> ... i'm wondering about the Process
# [20:44] <timeless> ... does moving forward/going back to LC?
# [20:44] <timeless> ack sic
# [20:44] * Zakim sees marcos, chaals on the speaker queue
# [20:45] <timeless> sicking: i'm fine w/ not going back to LC
# [20:45] <marcosc> Zakim: ack me
# [20:45] <timeless> ... not terribly knowledgeable about formalism
# [20:45] * shepazu can't be blamed for eliot's incompetence… shepazu's got plenty of incompetence of his own
# [20:45] <timeless> ack chaals
# [20:45] * Zakim sees marcos on the speaker queue
# [20:45] <timeless> chaals: going back to LC
# [20:45] <timeless> ... it's more of a hygiene thing
# [20:45] <timeless> ... put it up for 3 weeks
# [20:45] <timeless> ... only the changes are fairly open
# [20:45] <timeless> ... it gives you hygiene for Patent Policy
# [20:46] <timeless> ... and it takes 3 weeks for ArtB / myself to organize the next step anyway
# [20:46] <timeless> lyle: is there any interest in indexedDB including webSql
# [20:46] * Ms2ger grins
# [20:46] <timeless> ... a jdbc remote database call
# [20:46] <timeless> [ laughter ]
# [20:46] <timeless> israelh: that's why i want this to move forward
# [20:46] <timeless> ... we've gone through a lot of things in the WG
# [20:46] <timeless> ... we've identified things we've chosen not to do in V1
# [20:47] <timeless> ... likely to stir up again in LC
# [20:47] <timeless> ... things we'll have the same answers to
# [20:47] <timeless> ... implementations are really close
# [20:47] <timeless> ... let's keep moving forward
# [20:47] <timeless> ... my inclination is to move forward
# [20:47] <timeless> ... and then get to v2
# [20:47] <timeless> ... for new things
# [20:47] <chaals> q+
# [20:47] * Zakim sees marcos, chaals on the speaker queue
# [20:47] <chaals> ack ma
# [20:47] <Zakim> marcos, you wanted to volunteer?
# [20:47] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
# [20:47] <timeless> i/gives you/chaals: you probably won't have comments anyway/
# [20:47] <timeless> ack chaals
# [20:47] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:48] <timeless> chaals: i agree we don't want to open the thing up widely
# [20:48] <timeless> ... the LC is "this is version1"
# [20:48] <timeless> ... we're showing you the spec we're pushing to REC
# [20:48] <timeless> ... if people say "you forgot to boil the ocean"
# [20:48] <timeless> ... the response will be "out of scope"
# [20:48] <timeless> ... we'll make that very clear if we go to LC
# [20:48] <timeless> ... we say "you're not getting websql" or anything else into
# [20:48] <timeless> q?
# [20:48] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:48] * timeless plh has a second mic
# [20:49] * marcosc knows Ms2ger wants to change the IndexDB to use futures
# [20:49] * timeless dglazkov celebrates second mic
# [20:49] * Ms2ger doesn't care for futures
# [20:49] <timeless> ArtB: i have a feeling trying to convince director that there haven't been changes to invalidate review
# [20:49] * marcosc knows that in the future you will, Ms2ger... then.
# [20:49] <timeless> ... +1 a new LC
# [20:49] * Ms2ger resolves marcosc
# [20:49] <timeless> ... concerted effort to get those comments addressed quickly
# [20:50] <timeless> ... don't let it drag on for months
# [20:50] * marcosc you "done" Ms2ger
# [20:50] <timeless> ... as a chair, you learn not to allow them to drag on
# [20:50] <timeless> israelh: scope it, that'd be awesome
# [20:50] * arun notes Futures is eating the web
# [20:50] <timeless> ... don't allow for repetition of previously presented comments
# [20:50] <timeless> chaals: absolutely
# [20:50] <timeless> ... resolution
# [20:50] <timeless> ... we'll put up 3 week LC
# [20:50] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@public.cloak)
# [20:50] <ArtB> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=WebAppsWG&component=Indexed%20Database%20API&resolution=---&list_id=8909 -> IDB Open Bugs
# [20:50] <timeless> ... this is a review of the changes
# [20:50] <timeless> ... we don't take on new work
# [20:50] <timeless> s/->//
# [20:51] <timeless> s/https/-> https/
# [20:51] <timeless> ... we'll do more in v2
# [20:51] <timeless> ... what's your testing story?
# [20:51] <timeless> sicking: i don't think we have two implementations that implement everything
# [20:51] <timeless> ... IE is lacking Arrays
# [20:51] <marcosc> +q
# [20:51] * Zakim sees marcosc on the speaker queue
# [20:51] <timeless> ... Chrome is lacking Blob
# [20:51] <timeless> ... Firefox impl is perfect
# [20:51] <timeless> chaals: that's what they said about AppCache
# [20:51] <timeless> jsbell: no sync api impls
# [20:51] <timeless> marcosc: i was going to ask about sync api
# [20:51] <smaug> drop the sync API ?
# [20:51] <timeless> ... will that be dropped in LC?
# [20:52] <timeless> sicking: there's no way it'll survive
# [20:52] <timeless> ... it's listed as AT-RISK
# [20:52] <timeless> ... maybe we could drop before LC
# [20:52] <timeless> ... we have a mostly working impl
# [20:52] <timeless> jsbell: +1 to droppiing
# [20:52] <timeless> s/ii/i/
# [20:52] <smaug> +1 dropping
# [20:52] <timeless> israelh: +1 for dropping
# [20:52] <timeless> ArtB: what's the plan for the bugs?
# [20:52] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
# [20:52] <timeless> eliot: those 3 bugs were submitted after the official LC period
# [20:53] <timeless> ... not sure how that applies
# [20:53] <timeless> ... one is in DoC
# [20:53] <timeless> ... the other two came later
# [20:53] * Ms2ger suggests just fixing bugs, regardless of when they're filed
# [20:53] <timeless> ArtB: if we publish a new LC, we should consider these
# [20:53] <timeless> eliot: i'll add to DoC
# [20:53] * marcosc agrees
# [20:53] <timeless> jsbell: 21801
# [20:53] <timeless> ... i filed as i was making a bug fix to our impl
# [20:53] <timeless> ... i think it's non-controversial
# [20:53] <timeless> ... looking for eyeballs
# [20:53] <Ms2ger> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21801
# [20:53] <timeless> ... 21555
# [20:53] <Ms2ger> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21555
# [20:53] <timeless> ... this came out of discussion on ML/other bug
# [20:54] <timeless> ... to match new features of WebIDL
# [20:54] <timeless> ... try to avoid webIDL `any`
# [20:54] <timeless> ... using webIDL `unions`
# [20:54] <timeless> ... this looks like webIDL doesn't support attribute returning js array
# [20:54] <timeless> ... comments from heycam suggesting webIDL spec additions to address
# [20:54] <timeless> sicking: i don't think we need to depend on webIDL
# [20:54] <timeless> ... we can use prose
# [20:55] <timeless> jsbell: yes, we can do that, seeing nodding
# [20:55] <timeless> jsbell: 17681
# [20:55] <timeless> ... was in DoC
# [20:55] <timeless> ... it's been resolved, reopened, resolved, reopened
# [20:55] <timeless> ... when spec was written, it listed a list of exceptions for arrays w/ tabular format
# [20:55] <timeless> ... the spec wasn't written in new format
# [20:55] <timeless> ... of step-wise
# [20:55] <timeless> ... i've removed the tables
# [20:55] <timeless> ... but the spec doesn't specify order
# [20:55] <timeless> ... and the opera tests showed different behaviors
# [20:56] <timeless> ... sicking and i talked about picking an ordering or picking some implementation
# [20:56] <timeless> ... israelh has an objection
# [20:56] <timeless> israelh: from our perspective
# [20:56] <timeless> ... we don't see this as adding value to the web developer
# [20:56] <timeless> ... the pattern we see is that they'll catch the exception
# [20:56] <timeless> ... they're not going to look at the details of the exception
# [20:56] <Ms2ger> Should we replace all exceptions by plain Errors?
# [20:56] <sicking> q+
# [20:56] * Zakim sees marcosc, sicking on the speaker queue
# [20:56] <timeless> ... either move forward or not care
# [20:57] <timeless> ... don't see reason to expend resources
# [20:57] <timeless> ... even if the spec had it
# [20:57] <timeless> ack marcosc
# [20:57] * Zakim sees sicking on the speaker queue
# [20:57] <chaals> ack ma
# [20:57] * Zakim sees sicking on the speaker queue
# [20:57] <timeless> ack sicking
# [20:57] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:57] <timeless> sicking: i think israelh addressed my question
# [20:57] <timeless> ... specwise it's easy to give a global order
# [20:57] <timeless> ... if it supports A, B, C, you check for A, B, then C
# [20:57] <timeless> ... i don't think it matters
# [20:58] <timeless> ... i still would like to see a defined order
# [20:58] <timeless> israelh: i think it'd be silly
# [20:58] <timeless> ... to not be spec compliant just because of error order
# [20:58] <adrianba> q+
# [20:58] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [20:58] <timeless> sicking: you aren't compliant because of arrays
# [20:58] <timeless> israelh: yes, but that's useful because it addresses a UC
# [20:58] <timeless> ... but exception order?
# [20:58] * Quits: JaeChung (~JaeChung@public.cloak) ("http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client")
# [20:58] <timeless> ... what UCs does it help
# [20:58] <timeless> adrianba: different between not implementing a feature
# [20:58] <timeless> ... and here
# [20:58] <timeless> ... we're saying "multiple things are wrong here"
# [20:59] <Ms2ger> I wonder how much time it would take to implement a consistent order, and how much time has already been wasted on objections
# [20:59] <timeless> ... in the end, the operation isn't going to complete
# [20:59] <timeless> ... i don't think it matters to web developers
# [20:59] * Joins: JaeChung (~JaeChung@public.cloak)
# [20:59] <timeless> ... knowing there are multiple things wrong
# [20:59] <timeless> ... you're told about one, and stop
# [20:59] <timeless> chaals: if we accept your position
# [20:59] <timeless> ... actual order in which you burst into flames, break down, and explode
# [21:00] <timeless> ... we'll get a comment from a web dev explaining why we're ruining his business, his life, and his relationship
# [21:00] <timeless> ... how many of those will we get?
# [21:00] <timeless> sicking: not a hill i will die on
# [21:00] * timeless Ms2ger : probably a lot
# [21:00] <timeless> sicking: people will do crazy stuff
# [21:00] <timeless> ... things may work in one impl and not another
# [21:00] <timeless> ... fine w/ punting and leaving undefined here
# [21:00] <Ms2ger> Might as well do it now
# [21:00] <timeless> adrianba: maybe we'll get impl experience
# [21:00] <timeless> ... about whether or not this is a problem
# [21:01] <timeless> ... in CR
# [21:01] <timeless> lyle: if we don't get a recommendation of the order, then implementers will never get in sync
# [21:01] <timeless> ... can we get a recommendation list
# [21:01] <timeless> ... and say we'd like people to align to this
# [21:01] <timeless> chaals: i don't see that as a solution
# [21:01] <timeless> ... you set up an expectation for developers
# [21:01] <timeless> ... then they'll see it was a sales pitch
# [21:02] <timeless> ... we just tell them don't trigger multiple failures
# [21:02] * marcosc agrees that there should be a warning in the spec if it's a known interop issue
# [21:02] <timeless> israelh: exceptions are things that you're not going to deal w/ in most cases
# [21:02] <timeless> ... DataErrorException or CloningProblem
# [21:02] <timeless> ... things i'll overcome: errors
# [21:02] <timeless> ... failed to commit to database
# [21:02] <timeless> ... that i need to retry
# [21:02] <timeless> ... the error model is robust enough
# [21:02] <timeless> lyle: i disagre
# [21:02] * marcosc notes that it's not devs that suffer, but users who lose data or can't use some service on some browser
# [21:02] <timeless> ... if you deal w/ errors in a different order
# [21:03] * Ms2ger ArtB: is this a good use of the collective time?
# [21:03] <jsbell> q+
# [21:03] * Zakim sees adrianba, jsbell on the speaker queue
# [21:03] <timeless> ... how you handle an error is very important to an application
# [21:03] <adrianba> q-
# [21:03] * Zakim sees jsbell on the speaker queue
# [21:03] <timeless> lyle: we can chat over lunch
# [21:03] <timeless> israelh: the errors are so different
# [21:04] * Quits: jeff (jeff@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
# [21:04] * Ms2ger objects
# [21:04] * marcosc too!
# [21:04] <arun> Objections were cited about moving the API to Futures
# [21:04] * Quits: israelh (~israelh@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [21:05] <jsbell> as out of scope for V1 Last Call
# [21:06] * marcosc DOM3 DOM3 DOM3!!!
# [21:07] <smaug> ArtB: how long lunch you'll have?
# [21:07] * ArtB samug - we will resume at the top of the hour ~55 mins from now
# [21:07] <smaug> s/samug/smaug/
# [21:07] <smaug> k
# [21:08] <Zakim> -Ms2ger
# [21:08] <ArtB> ArtB: I will block on starting a CfC for LC of IDL until I get a Go message from Joshua, Israel and Jonas
# [21:08] <Ms2ger> Enjoy lunch
# [21:08] <Ms2ger> s/IDL/IDB/
# [21:08] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [21:08] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
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# [21:10] <marcosc> zakim, who is here?
# [21:10] <Zakim> On the phone I see Olli_Pettay, Paypal, Marcos
# [21:10] <Zakim> On IRC I see JaeChung, tantek, sicking, garykac, Jin_Peng, arun, davidb, EricU, dgrogan_cloud, jeffh, shepazu, tantek_, jsbell, Travis, acolwell, tlr, JonathanJ, Jungkee, yosuke,
# [21:10] <Zakim> ... TylerB, Bin_Hu, eliot, bryan, darobin, wonsuk, plh, lgombos
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# [21:12] <Zakim> -Marcos
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# [22:12] <timeless> present+ Arun_Ranganathan
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# [22:13] <lyle> q?
# [22:13] * Zakim sees jsbell on the speaker queue
# [22:13] <jsbell> q-
# [22:13] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [22:13] <Zakim> -Olli_Pettay
# [22:13] <timeless> present+ Gary_Kacmarcik
# [22:13] <timeless> Topic: DOM3 Events - Status Update
# [22:13] * smaug calls again
# [22:13] <ArtB> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=WebAppsWG&component=DOM3%20Events&;resolution=--- -> DOM 3 Events Bugs
# [22:13] * Joins: krisk (~krisk@public.cloak)
# [22:13] <timeless> Travis: please don't raise any concerns or questions
# [22:14] <timeless> s/->//
# [22:14] <ArtB> http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/products/2 -> Open Issues
# [22:14] <timeless> s/https/-> https/
# [22:14] <timeless> s/->//
# [22:14] <timeless> s/http/-> http/
# [22:14] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [22:14] <timeless> Travis: we did a LC
# [22:14] * Quits: JaeChung (~JaeChung@public.cloak) ("http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client")
# [22:14] <ArtB> http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/DOM3Events#Last_Call_Comments -> LC Comment Tracking for D3E
# [22:14] <smaug> Zakim, [IPcaller] is Olli_Pettay
# [22:14] <Zakim> +Olli_Pettay; got it
# [22:14] <timeless> ... and we now have implementers working on the last bits
# [22:14] <timeless> ... the new action is the Keyboard events
# [22:14] <timeless> ... mozilla has given us a bunch of bugs
# [22:14] <smaug> Zakim, nick smaug is Olli_Pettay
# [22:14] <Zakim> ok, smaug, I now associate you with Olli_Pettay
# [22:15] <timeless> ... related to specific issues in the spec
# [22:15] * Joins: JaeChung (~JaeChung@public.cloak)
# [22:15] <timeless> ... hey, you need a key value for a given thing
# [22:15] <timeless> ... we have 25 of these bugs
# [22:15] <ArtB> ( 26 open D3E bugs open ATM)
# [22:15] <timeless> ... garykac and i have reviewed them all
# [22:15] <timeless> ... a lot of them are editorial fixups
# [22:15] <timeless> ... fixing explanatory stuff in the spec
# [22:15] <timeless> ... then we have to work on tests
# [22:16] <timeless> ... we ported tests to github
# [22:16] <timeless> ... we have 20 or so tests
# [22:16] <timeless> ... that look at event model/propagation - supported by 100% of browsers
# [22:16] <timeless> ... what's missing is tests on key combinations
# [22:16] <timeless> ... where we're getting bugs
# [22:16] <timeless> ... our effort in the next several months is work on places where we need to beef up tests in these cases
# [22:16] <timeless> ... from mozilla and hopefully google
# [22:16] <timeless> ... for future requests, we've spun up the UI Events document
# [22:17] <timeless> ... which is taking open requests for new features
# [22:17] <timeless> present+ Jin_Peng
# [22:17] <timeless> Travis: that's the status
# [22:17] <timeless> ... we'll need multiple months to get the spec prose updated
# [22:17] <timeless> ... reissue, a 3rd LC
# [22:17] <timeless> ... we'll try to keep the LC period short (3-4 weeks)
# [22:17] <timeless> ... and work on getting tests identified and approved
# [22:18] <timeless> ... by next TPAC we could propose CR
# [22:18] <smaug> only 3rd last call and the spec is 10+ years old :)
# [22:18] <timeless> ... which i've said for years and years
# [22:18] <timeless> chaals: you can copy that from last year's TPAC
# [22:18] <timeless> ArtB: we can blame shepazu
# [22:18] <timeless> garykac: we talked/worked during lunch
# [22:18] <timeless> ... concerned that the editorial comment come down to
# [22:18] <timeless> ... "this spec is unclear" in a bunch of points
# [22:18] <timeless> ... a lot of that will require adding additional information
# [22:19] <timeless> ... we'd like to have the minutiae encoded in the tests
# [22:19] <timeless> ... and we can't get this spec signed off on w/o this being encoded in the tests
# [22:19] <timeless> ... there's talk that this is blocking IME
# [22:19] <timeless> ... the messy part is DOM keyboard stuff
# [22:19] <timeless> ... a lot of DOM keyboard could be extracted out
# [22:19] * smaug will talk to masayuki if he can help with key event tests while implementing that stuff to Gecko
# [22:19] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
# [22:19] <timeless> ... keyboard events will take at least until the end of the year
# [22:20] <timeless> smaug: I will talk to masayuki if he can help with key event tests while implementing that stuff to Gecko
# [22:20] * shepazu denies ever having worked on DOM3 Events
# [22:20] <timeless> chaals: we're beginning to suspect that keyboard events are tricky, after 10 years on it
# [22:20] <timeless> ... i don't have a great position on this (splitting it out)
# [22:20] <timeless> ... dom2 did this
# [22:20] <timeless> garykac: was it a separate doc, or did they put it as dom3 keyboard?
# [22:21] <timeless> chaals: they did it as `something they'll do later`
# [22:21] <timeless> ... now it's `later`
# [22:21] <timeless> ... what are we better off doing
# [22:21] <timeless> ... if we can get the rest of the spec out, w/o key events
# [22:21] <timeless> ... we're not forcing people to do specs
# [22:21] <timeless> ... we do them when it's painful
# [22:21] <timeless> ... keyboard events are clearly painful around the web
# [22:21] <timeless> ... what do people think?
# [22:22] <timeless> Travis: if they've been blocked on D3E for years, a few months isn't a big deal
# [22:22] <timeless> ... keyboard events are in much better place now, than when DOM2 was wrapping up
# [22:22] <timeless> ... whichever path
# [22:22] <timeless> ... is about accelerating the spec
# [22:22] <marcosc> zakim, passcode?
# [22:22] <Zakim> the conference code is 92323 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), marcosc
# [22:22] <timeless> ... we want to get it all done
# [22:22] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [22:22] <timeless> ... i don't think keyboard is blocking any more than the rest
# [22:23] <timeless> glenn_: from my perspective, there's no point in publishing D3E w/o keyboard
# [22:23] <timeless> ... it's the thing missing from DOM events for a long time
# [22:23] <timeless> ... i'd have to object
# [22:23] <timeless> chaals: other takers?
# [22:23] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@public.cloak) ("nn")
# [22:23] <timeless> ... i lean to not splitting it out
# [22:23] <timeless> ... keep pain in front of us
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# [22:24] <timeless> garykac: i got the impression that people are afraid of the spec
# [22:24] <timeless> ... i got the impression minor changes aren't going in
# [22:24] <timeless> ... i'm fine w/ them staying in as long as we're making progress
# [22:24] <timeless> ... concerned that there's concern it's collapsing under its own weight
# [22:24] <timeless> ... but i think it's getting close
# [22:24] <timeless> ... just dotting i's, crossing t's
# [22:24] <timeless> ... right now, if you implemented, it wouldn't be cross browser
# [22:25] <timeless> ArtB: are you two editing the spec right now?
# [22:25] <timeless> Travis: right now, it's just me
# [22:25] <timeless> ... but i don't see why i couldn't add garykac
# [22:25] <timeless> ArtB: i see 26 bugs
# [22:25] <timeless> Travis: a lot are `just add this keyboard code`
# [22:25] <timeless> garykac: i'm volunteering to edit
# [22:25] <timeless> ... to add keyboard codes, and fix English
# [22:26] <timeless> weinig: Sam Weinig, Apple
# [22:26] <timeless> present+ Sam_Weinig
# [22:26] <timeless> chaals: hearing "we'll be done by some TPAC"
# [22:26] <timeless> garykac: we need to get our testing situation in order
# [22:26] <timeless> ... w/o that, we don't have confidence in order
# [22:26] * Quits: adrianba (~adrianba@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [22:27] <timeless> chaals: so, "Testcases are accepted, welcome, and wanted"
# [22:27] <timeless> ArtB: we have Alex Kuang from Microsoft as test facilitator
# [22:27] <timeless> krisk: there's room for more tests
# [22:28] <timeless> garykac: i'd imagine signing up for tests
# [22:28] <timeless> ArtB: does 75% sound fine for coverage?
# [22:28] <krisk> q+
# [22:28] * Zakim sees krisk on the speaker queue
# [22:28] <timeless> garykac: for keyboard, closer to 5%
# [22:28] <timeless> ... other parts probably have test coverage
# [22:29] <timeless> krisk: we set up test facilitators so that editors wouldn't do everything
# [22:29] <krisk> q-
# [22:29] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [22:29] <timeless> Travis: garykac, do you want to replace alex?
# [22:29] <timeless> garykac: that's fine
# [22:29] <timeless> krisk: i love your passion
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# [22:29] <timeless> Topic: Web Components
# [22:29] <timeless> dglazkov: wanted to give a quick update
# [22:30] <timeless> ... since the last
# [22:30] <timeless> ... delta or absolute?
# [22:30] * Joins: JaeChung (~JaeChung@public.cloak)
# [22:30] <timeless> ... Absolute first
# [22:30] <timeless> ... we wrote an explaner a long time ago
# [22:30] <timeless> ... turned it into a Doc for this WG a while ago
# [22:30] <timeless> ... this turned into 4 specs
# [22:30] <timeless> ... Shadow DOM, XX2, XX3, XX4
# [22:30] <timeless> ... there's a risk of a fifth spec
# [22:31] <ArtB> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/explainer/index.html -> Web Components Explainer/Intro
# [22:31] * timeless ArtB : "-> url Title"
# [22:31] <timeless> s/->//
# [22:31] <timeless> s/http/-> http/
# [22:31] * ArtB thanks Josh!
# [22:31] <timeless> dglazkov: the goal was never to have HTML Templates as its own spec
# [22:31] <timeless> ... it's an extension spec
# [22:31] <timeless> chaals: that would be in Plan 2014
# [22:32] <timeless> darobin: we could just fold it directly into html
# [22:32] <timeless> dglazkov: i'm really happy about that
# [22:32] <timeless> ... it never seemed like a separate feature
# [22:32] <timeless> ... there were several issues about Parsing
# [22:32] <timeless> ... they have been ironed out since our last conversation
# [22:32] <timeless> MikeSmith: what was the resolution on XML parsing?
# [22:32] <timeless> dglazkov: there's graceful fallback mode
# [22:33] <timeless> MikeSmith: the feature works in xml
# [22:33] <ArtB> -> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/spec/templates/index.html HTML Templates
# [22:33] <timeless> ... cool
# [22:33] <ArtB> -> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/spec/shadow/index.html Shadow DOM
# [22:33] <timeless> dglazkov: next is Shadow DOM
# [22:33] <timeless> ... mozilla has a lot of questions
# [22:33] <timeless> ... that's great
# [22:33] <timeless> ... next is to work w/ CSS WG
# [22:33] <timeless> ... on integration, w/ Selectors
# [22:33] <timeless> ... there's value for other specs too
# [22:34] <timeless> ... scope relative selectors
# [22:34] * plh3 is now known as plh
# [22:34] <timeless> ... - which were vastly underspecified
# [22:34] <MikeSmith> q+ to ask about the <decorator> spec
# [22:34] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [22:34] <timeless> ... recently we had existential questions
# [22:34] <timeless> ... Element, Shadow DOM, Declarative
# [22:34] <timeless> ... I plan to resume work on Shadow DOM - RSN
# [22:35] <timeless> ... Shadow DOM has a nice test suite
# [22:35] * Quits: JaeChung (~JaeChung@public.cloak) ("http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client")
# [22:35] <dglazkov> http://www.w3c-test.org/webapps/ShadowDOM/tests/submissions/Google/
# [22:35] * Joins: JaeChung (~JaeChung@public.cloak)
# [22:35] <timeless> ... as tests were written, we discovered bugs and fixed it
# [22:35] <timeless> ... as the spec is updated, we plan to update the tests too
# [22:36] <timeless> ... we're failing several tests right now
# [22:36] <timeless> sicking: a big concern we have
# [22:36] <timeless> ... is using selectors for insertion points is too damn slow
# [22:36] <timeless> ... does webkit deal w/ it right now?
# [22:36] <timeless> ... and you handle all possible dynamic modifications?
# [22:36] <timeless> dglazkov: yes, and the test suite tests for that
# [22:36] <timeless> ... the problem of combinatorial expansion is prohibitive
# [22:36] <timeless> ... but it tests every selector
# [22:37] <ArtB> -> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/default/spec/custom/index.html Custom Elements
# [22:37] <timeless> ... Custom Elements let you define your own platform objects
# [22:37] <timeless> ... the problem w/ this, is that it operates in a space shared by several other specs, WebIDL, DOM, HTML
# [22:37] <timeless> ... that space is irregular, it involved fixing bugs in all of those specs
# [22:38] <timeless> ... huge thanks to Mozilla, and especially bz
# [22:38] * Joins: shepazutu (schepers@public.cloak)
# [22:38] <timeless> ... in guiding me, and helping me to understand how to do this
# [22:38] <ArtB> ACTION: barstow update Pubstatus of D3E to reflect Gary's participation in Editing and Testing
# [22:38] * RRSAgent records action 12
# [22:38] * @trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [22:38] <@trackbot> Created ACTION-686 - Update Pubstatus of D3E to reflect Gary's participation in Editing and Testing [on Arthur Barstow - due 2013-05-02].
# [22:38] * Quits: JonathanJ (~JonathanJ@public.cloak) ("http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client")
# [22:38] <timeless> ... it's fairly well settled at least for imperative
# [22:38] <timeless> ... Declarative syntax of custom elements is still up in the air
# [22:38] <timeless> ... i don't expect it to be this way for much longer
# [22:38] <timeless> ... we have an idea
# [22:38] <timeless> ... and now that imperative is fairly solid
# [22:39] <timeless> s/HTML, _and_ TC39/
# [22:39] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [22:39] * shepazutu is now known as shepazu
# [22:39] <timeless> s|s/HTML, _and_ TC39/||
# [22:39] <timeless> s/HTML/HTML, _and_ TC39/
# [22:39] <timeless> dglazkov: we've ironed out this for ECMAScript 6
# [22:39] <timeless> chaals: you have this ironed out?
# [22:39] <timeless> dglazkov: yes, you can feed it a Class
# [22:40] <timeless> ... next step, is to issue a draft
# [22:40] <timeless> ArtB: i'll start a CfC
# [22:40] <timeless> dglazkov: tross is not here
# [22:40] <ArtB> ACTION: barstow start a CfC to publish FPWD of Custom Elements
# [22:40] * RRSAgent records action 13
# [22:40] * @trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [22:40] <@trackbot> Created ACTION-687 - Start a CfC to publish FPWD of Custom Elements [on Arthur Barstow - due 2013-05-02].
# [22:40] <timeless> ... he contributed to the discussion
# [22:40] <timeless> ... on synchronicity
# [22:40] <ArtB> -> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/spec/imports/index.html HTML Imports
# [22:40] <timeless> ... HTML Imports, another huge patch on html
# [22:41] <timeless> ... which is how custom elements declarative syntax will integrate
# [22:41] <timeless> ... i have an early draft
# [22:41] <timeless> ... it's probably ready to do FPWD
# [22:41] <timeless> ... its lifespan is intertwined w/ Custom Elements
# [22:41] <timeless> ArtB: any objections to FPWD of HTML Imports?
# [22:41] <timeless> MikeSmith: decorator?
# [22:41] <ArtB> ACTION: barstow start CfC for FPWD of HTML Imports
# [22:41] * @trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [22:41] * RRSAgent records action 14
# [22:41] <@trackbot> Created ACTION-688 - Start CfC for FPWD of HTML Imports [on Arthur Barstow - due 2013-05-02].
# [22:41] <timeless> dglazkov: yes
# [22:41] <timeless> MikeSmith: there's no spec?
# [22:41] <timeless> dglazkov: yes
# [22:42] <timeless> ... we're walking around a large structure
# [22:42] <timeless> ... i figured we'd start walking, and see what we can see from there
# [22:42] <timeless> ... if you look at the explainer, they're the most hand-wavy part
# [22:42] <timeless> ... web developers were saying wouldn't it be nice
# [22:42] <timeless> ... it's really cool, but very dangerous
# [22:42] <timeless> ... you're running script on selector
# [22:42] <timeless> ... everyone who's done this before
# [22:43] <timeless> ... MS and Mozilla/hixie
# [22:43] <timeless> ... have said it's very dangerous
# [22:43] <timeless> ... if people want it, we might consider it
# [22:43] <timeless> ... i have no plans at this point
# [22:43] <timeless> ArtB: the explainer is a nice document
# [22:43] <timeless> ... do you see a need to update it?
# [22:43] <timeless> dglazkov: it has been updated
# [22:43] <timeless> ... we need to publish another version
# [22:43] <timeless> ... it used to be forward looking
# [22:43] <ArtB> ACTION: barstow start CfC to publish new WD of the Web Components Explainer
# [22:44] * RRSAgent records action 15
# [22:44] * @trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [22:44] <@trackbot> Created ACTION-689 - Start CfC to publish new WD of the Web Components Explainer [on Arthur Barstow - due 2013-05-02].
# [22:44] <timeless> ... the process is working
# [22:44] <timeless> hober: thanks for the status update
# [22:44] <timeless> ... wonder if you want to take time to look at open issues
# [22:44] <timeless> ... and maybe get ideas
# [22:44] <timeless> chaals: we have time
# [22:44] <timeless> dglazkov: i'm bug-happy
# [22:45] <timeless> ... i file bugs on my specs
# [22:45] <timeless> ... 186 bugs
# [22:45] * Quits: JaeChung (~JaeChung@public.cloak) ("http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client")
# [22:45] <timeless> ... best way to look at it is a tree
# [22:45] <ArtB> -> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=WebAppsWG&component=Component%20Model&resolution=---&list_id=8922 Web Components Bugs
# [22:45] <dglazkov> https://bugs.webkit.org/showdependencytree.cgi?id=52962&hide_resolved=1
# [22:46] <dglazkov> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/showdependencytree.cgi?id=14972&hide_resolved=1
# [22:46] <timeless> s|https://bugs.webkit.org/showdependencytree.cgi?id=52962&hide_resolved=1||
# [22:46] <timeless> s/http/-> http/
# [22:46] <timeless> s/=1/=1 Dependency tree for dglazkov 's work/
# [22:47] <timeless> chaals: given 15 minutes
# [22:47] <timeless> ... where would you like input?
# [22:47] <timeless> dglazkov: shadow dom -- document fragment
# [22:47] <timeless> ... callbacks in custom elements
# [22:47] <timeless> ... double checking that we've got it right
# [22:47] <timeless> ... there's another session w/ WebAppSec on isolation/security
# [22:47] <timeless> chaals: anyone have this swapped into their brains?
# [22:47] <timeless> [ Silence ]
# [22:48] * Quits: jeffh (~d871a880@public.cloak) ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client")
# [22:48] <timeless> dglazkov: Custom Elements
# [22:48] <timeless> chaals: take 5 minutes to do a walk through
# [22:49] <timeless> chaals: i'm happy to take a long break
# [22:49] <ArtB> -> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/default/spec/custom/index.html Custom Elements
# [22:49] <timeless> [ dglazkov walks through Custom Elements ]
# [22:49] <timeless> dglazkov: it lets an author provide a native like object
# [22:49] <timeless> ... DOM objects are magical
# [22:49] <timeless> ... they seem to have Constructors
# [22:50] <timeless> ... but you can't subclass
# [22:50] <timeless> ... you can't new things
# [22:50] <timeless> ... it gives you something that seems like a DOM object
# [22:50] <timeless> ... this spec doesn't refer to es6
# [22:50] <timeless> ... the idea is that the construct() internal method is overwritten
# [22:50] <timeless> ... in Registering Custom Elements
# [22:50] <timeless> ... an element definition is registered w/ the document
# [22:51] <timeless> ... and you get back a constructor
# [22:51] <timeless> ... generated for you by the browser
# [22:51] <timeless> ... it hooks the magic into the thing
# [22:51] <timeless> ... you don't have to worry about how it works
# [22:51] <timeless> ... when this object is instantiated by browser (parsing, construct node, adopt node)
# [22:51] <timeless> ... JS isn't run
# [22:51] <timeless> ... as a consolation prize for developers
# [22:51] <timeless> ... we have a ready-callback
# [22:52] <timeless> ... roughly at mutation time
# [22:52] <timeless> ... if i need to initiate things
# [22:52] <timeless> ... i do it during this callback
# [22:52] <timeless> ... we'll add, an insertion-callback and a removal-callback
# [22:52] <timeless> ... to be notified when a document is in/out of the document
# [22:52] <timeless> ... you don't want a Clock to be running when it's outside of the document
# [22:52] <timeless> ... lots of cool things
# [22:53] <timeless> ... making sure we don't break invariants
# [22:53] <timeless> ... of HTML/SVG
# [22:53] <timeless> ... we do this thing where you can instantiate anything that inherits from Element
# [22:53] <timeless> ... but in reality, only things that inherit from HTMLElement/SVGElement
# [22:53] <timeless> ... we actually swizzle- prototypes
# [22:53] <timeless> ... there's a quantum of time
# [22:53] <timeless> ... you define your own element, put it in a tree
# [22:54] <timeless> ... later on, it becomes
# [22:54] * Joins: JonathanJ (~JonathanJ@public.cloak)
# [22:54] <timeless> ... we ensure that the prototype chain
# [22:54] <timeless> ... the top of the chain doesn't change
# [22:54] <timeless> ... so it never has to modify past the ...
# [22:54] <timeless> ... ElementRegistrationOptions looks suspiciously like a function
# [22:55] <timeless> ... this would be a Class once ES6 arrives
# [22:55] <timeless> ... right now you can pass any object
# [22:55] <timeless> ArtB: you said something about Implementation Status?
# [22:55] <timeless> dglazkov: it's early
# [22:55] <timeless> ... Mozilla has some code, Blink has some code, WebKit has some code
# [22:55] <timeless> ... none is runnable
# [22:56] <timeless> weinig: i'm still curious, years later
# [22:56] <timeless> ... why is it necessary to inherit from existing browser specified objects
# [22:56] <timeless> ... what benefit do you get over composition
# [22:56] <timeless> ... i know we've been over this before
# [22:56] <timeless> ... but i don't think it's been sufficiently explained
# [22:56] <timeless> dglazkov: the basic goal
# [22:57] <timeless> ... Custom Elements explains how DOM Elements are born
# [22:57] <timeless> ... you could build <video>, <audio> elements
# [22:57] * Joins: alecf (~uid11371@public.cloak)
# [22:57] <timeless> ... it doesn't build another layer of the platform
# [22:57] <timeless> ... it tries to explain how it works
# [22:57] * Quits: davidb (~davidb@public.cloak) (davidb)
# [22:57] <timeless> ... we tried not to add another layer
# [22:57] <timeless> ... just explain a layer
# [22:58] <timeless> weinig: is there a benefit to subclassing <p> ?
# [22:58] <timeless> ... usually subclassing, is for when you want to
# [22:58] <timeless> ... if you override something that's custom
# [22:58] <timeless> ... -- sometimes you can't inherit
# [22:58] <timeless> dglazkov: the key is to inherit from Element
# [22:58] <timeless> ... and we allow that
# [22:58] <timeless> weinig: i think you want to limit yourself
# [22:59] <timeless> dglazkov: why?
# [22:59] <timeless> weinig: the future is big
# [22:59] <timeless> ... take the limited thing, iterate on that
# [22:59] <timeless> ... we don't have to do everything at once
# [22:59] <timeless> dglazkov: i think the spec is fine
# [22:59] <timeless> ... i think we could limit it to HTMLElement
# [22:59] <timeless> weinig: looking for UCs
# [22:59] * Joins: JaeChung (~JaeChung@public.cloak)
# [22:59] <timeless> ... i know mozilla is doing this
# [23:00] <timeless> ... are there cases where inheriting from <video> makes sense?
# [23:00] <timeless> ... We wanted to solve this
# [23:00] <timeless> ... to make some things not a blocker
# [23:00] <timeless> ... we didn't want to leave us stuck
# [23:01] <timeless> weinig: we could limit to only inheriting to objects speced as inheritable
# [23:01] <timeless> ... start from that direction
# [23:01] <timeless> ... so you could go forward
# [23:01] <timeless> ... and say, now Hixie has added inheritable to X object
# [23:01] <timeless> dglazkov: this is interesting
# [23:01] <timeless> ... this is similar to events
# [23:01] <timeless> ... whether an event stops at shadow dom
# [23:01] <timeless> ... that's an interesting idea
# [23:01] <timeless> weinig: it would reduce the complexity of the spec
# [23:01] <timeless> ... these specs are very dense
# [23:02] <timeless> ... when we started this
# [23:02] <timeless> ... the idea was that XBL2 was very complex
# [23:02] <timeless> ... and we didn't want that
# [23:02] <timeless> dglazkov: Shadow DOM is the guts of XBL2
# [23:02] <timeless> ... i just made sure it was bullet proof
# [23:02] <timeless> ... by the time you tried to address all the bits in XBL2
# [23:02] <timeless> ... it would be larger
# [23:02] <timeless> ... i just made the guts of XBL2 real
# [23:03] * ArtB make more concrete ;)
# [23:03] <timeless> ... when you make something real -- solidify
# [23:03] <timeless> ... make it more concrete
# [23:03] <timeless> ... Custom Elements is a really small spec
# [23:03] <timeless> ... it's the complexity of explaining the life cycle
# [23:03] <timeless> ... it doesn't matter if it's <hr>, <div>, <button>
# [23:03] <timeless> ... they have the same lifecycle
# [23:03] <timeless> q?
# [23:03] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [23:03] <timeless> ack MikeSmith
# [23:03] <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to ask about the <decorator> spec
# [23:04] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [23:04] <timeless> chaals: he already asked about that
# [23:04] <timeless> ArtB: anything chaals and i can do to help?
# [23:04] <timeless> dglazkov: i'm very happy w/ what you guys have done
# [23:04] * Joins: adrianba (~adrianba@public.cloak)
# [23:04] <timeless> ArtB: so you don't want us to get involved?
# [23:04] <timeless> ... is everything happening on public-webapps?
# [23:05] <timeless> dglazkov: G+ is writeonly (updateS)
# [23:05] <timeless> s/S/s/
# [23:05] <timeless> ... public-webapps, and some threads on public-style
# [23:05] <hober> q+ to talk about simplifying the shadow dom spec
# [23:05] * Zakim sees hober on the speaker queue
# [23:05] <timeless> ArtB: thanks
# [23:05] <timeless> chaals: thanks
# [23:05] <timeless> [ Applause ]
# [23:05] <hober> q-
# [23:05] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [23:05] <timeless> q- hober
# [23:05] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [23:06] <timeless> [ Break until 2:30pm ]
# [23:07] <timeless> present+ Robin_Berjon
# [23:08] * Quits: lyle (~lyle@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [23:09] * Quits: JonathanJ (~JonathanJ@public.cloak) ("http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client")
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# [23:16] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [23:16] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
# [23:19] <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
# [23:20] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@public.cloak) ("is sleepy")
# [23:20] * Parts: dgrogan_cloud (~uid7844@public.cloak)
# [23:28] * Joins: tobie (tobie@public.cloak)
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# [23:39] <timeless> Topic: CSP
# [23:40] * Joins: bhill2 (~bhill2@public.cloak)
# [23:40] <timeless> present+ Daniel_Veditz
# [23:40] <bhill2> I hope the topic is Web Components Security Model, rather than CSP
# [23:40] * Joins: wseltzer (wseltzer@public.cloak)
# [23:40] * timeless ?!
# [23:40] <arun> +1
# [23:40] * Joins: drogersuk (~drogersuk@public.cloak)
# [23:40] <timeless> present+ Brad_Hill
# [23:40] <wseltzer> present+ Wendy_Seltzer
# [23:40] <timeless> dglazkov: welcome security people
# [23:40] <timeless> [ Applause ]
# [23:40] * Joins: lyle (~lyle@public.cloak)
# [23:41] <timeless> dglazkov: i have a few goodies for you
# [23:41] <timeless> ... and some are baddie
# [23:41] <timeless> s/ie/ies/
# [23:41] <drogersuk> present+ David_Rogers
# [23:41] <timeless> ... i'm the guy trying to drive Web Components
# [23:41] <ArtB> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2013AprJun/0089.html Daniel Buchner re CSP and Web Components
# [23:41] * Joins: abarth (~uid5294@public.cloak)
# [23:41] <timeless> ... i have some questions
# [23:41] * Joins: tanvi (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [23:41] <timeless> ... tactical, and philosophical
# [23:41] <timeless> ... we have this "CSP" thing
# [23:41] <timeless> ... we invented a new syntax for Custom Elements
# [23:41] <timeless> ... the ability to build your own custom DOM elements
# [23:42] <timeless> ... let's go to the explainer
# [23:42] <timeless> ... go to custom elements
# [23:42] <timeless> ... it has a new element
# [23:42] <timeless> ... i call it "<element>"
# [23:42] <timeless> ... one of the things we have there is the ability to have an initialization script in a custom element
# [23:42] <timeless> ... it runs once, when the element is registered
# [23:43] <timeless> ... this lets me add methods to the prototype for this thing built for me
# [23:43] <timeless> ... this is subject to change
# [23:43] <timeless> ... someone pointed out "dude, this is bad"
# [23:43] <timeless> ... i said "i dunno"
# [23:43] <timeless> ... they said "look CSP"
# [23:43] <timeless> ... it's not technically <script>
# [23:43] <timeless> ... and TC39 people convinced me it's a normal script
# [23:43] <ArtB> -> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/explainer/index.html#custom-element-section Custom Element using script example
# [23:44] <timeless> ... does this need to have <script src> to be CSP-ok ?
# [23:44] <timeless> ... the idea is to put styles, script, markup in one place
# [23:44] <timeless> ... you might load it in one place
# [23:44] <timeless> ... separating it out seems bad
# [23:44] <timeless> ... they want their Taco
# [23:44] <timeless> ... folded into one place
# [23:45] <timeless> present+ Adam_Barth
# [23:45] <timeless> barth: when this script executes
# [23:45] <timeless> ... it executes in what context?
# [23:45] * Quits: JaeChung (~JaeChung@public.cloak) ("http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client")
# [23:45] <timeless> dglazkov: we experimented during our youth
# [23:45] <timeless> ... i think it will execute in normal context
# [23:45] <timeless> dveditz: is that chunk embedded in the main file?
# [23:45] <timeless> ... loaded in a separate file?
# [23:46] <timeless> dglazkov: could have it both ways
# [23:46] <timeless> dveditz: we're talking about a "script-nonce"
# [23:46] <timeless> ... concern is if your element can do that
# [23:46] <timeless> ... then something that could inject into that page
# [23:46] <timeless> ... script-nonce could be a solution
# [23:46] <timeless> ... maybe not
# [23:46] <timeless> ... if they're loaded externally, are they loaded how?
# [23:46] <timeless> dglazkov: HTML Imports
# [23:46] <timeless> ... they're loaded into a non-executable process
# [23:47] <timeless> dveditz: loaded through a new tag?
# [23:47] <timeless> dglazkov: <link rel>
# [23:47] <timeless> dveditz: so we could invent special rules
# [23:47] <timeless> dglazkov: so we could have that supply a nonce
# [23:47] <timeless> s/dglazkov:/.../
# [23:47] <timeless> ... by default we'll consider that bad, and come up w/ a fix
# [23:47] <timeless> dglazkov: relating to what barth said
# [23:48] * Quits: lyle (~lyle@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [23:48] <timeless> ... what if this did execute in a separate script context?
# [23:48] <timeless> ... what if you could have dom elements born somewhere else
# [23:48] <timeless> ... to provide some isolation
# [23:48] <timeless> ... i have no idea how this would work
# [23:48] <timeless> ... if you import this using an external other document
# [23:48] <timeless> ... you get their own document
# [23:48] <timeless> ... but they somehow appear as DOM in the main tree
# [23:48] <timeless> ... and of course, there are issues w/ read / style information
# [23:49] <timeless> ... but it's an interesting problem
# [23:49] <timeless> ... there's lots of code to provide `like` and `plus`
# [23:49] <timeless> ... most of that code has bugs
# [23:49] <timeless> bhill2: i agree w/ that concern
# [23:49] <timeless> ... that's one of the reasons i wanted to bring our group over
# [23:49] <timeless> ... those other buttons are implemented w/ <script src>
# [23:49] <timeless> ... the most popular of those widgets provide a single point of failure
# [23:50] <timeless> ... Facebook like/google analytic
# [23:50] <timeless> ... a bug in Facebook Connect nuked a quarter of the Internet for a couple hours
# [23:50] <timeless> ... not sure how to do that either
# [23:50] <timeless> dglazkov: an abstraction is Shadow DOM
# [23:50] <timeless> ... i think that may help
# [23:50] <timeless> ... we may be able to do something really interesting
# [23:50] * Joins: jeffh (~18047aad@public.cloak)
# [23:50] <timeless> ... i'm excited about solving this problem
# [23:50] * ArtB caja
# [23:51] * wseltzer caja
# [23:51] * tlr caja
# [23:51] <timeless> ... i had discussions w/ Caja
# [23:51] <timeless> chaals: spanish for Bank
# [23:51] <timeless> dglazkov: sounds like a lot of people interested in solving this
# [23:51] <timeless> ... i don't see a path
# [23:51] <timeless> ... i spoke w/ barth and he said give up now
# [23:51] <timeless> barth: yes
# [23:51] <timeless> dglazkov: we have abstractions, it'd be a shame if we didn't use them
# [23:52] <timeless> ... i'd really appreciate if i could meet with you guys later
# [23:54] * Disconnected
# [23:55] * Attempting to rejoin channel #webapps
# [23:55] * Rejoined channel #webapps
# [23:55] * Topic is 'WebApps WG F2F: http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/April2013Meeting; channel log = http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ ; Shadowy characters and Importers welcome'
# [23:55] * Set by Ms2ger on Thu Apr 25 18:22:17
# [23:55] <timeless> bhill2: we have very few tests
# [23:55] <timeless> ... we have an invited expert who has written some tests, but not in the standard format
# [23:55] * Joins: JonathanJ (~JonathanJ@public.cloak)
# [23:56] <timeless> ... we don't have a test suite that maps to individual points in the spec
# [23:56] <timeless> ArtB: are you meeting at TPAC?
# [23:56] <timeless> bhill2: that question is next on our agenda after this joint meeting
# [23:57] * Quits: tanvi (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [23:57] <timeless> ArtB: thanks for coming
# [23:57] <wseltzer> [WebAppSec leaves]
# [23:57] <ArtB> ArtB: thanks Brad, Adam, Daniel, All
# [23:57] <timeless> s/wseltzer/scribe/
# [23:58] <JonathanJ> rrsagent, draft minutes
# [23:58] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-minutes.html JonathanJ
# [23:58] * Quits: virginie (~virginie@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# Session Close: Fri Apr 26 00:00:00 2013

The end :)