/irc-logs / w3c / #webapps / 2013-04-26 / end

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# Session Start: Fri Apr 26 00:00:00 2013
# Session Ident: #webapps
# [00:00] * Joins: lyle (~lyle@public.cloak)
# [00:00] <lyle> q?
# [00:00] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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# [00:16] <smaug> does anyone have links to the tpac minutes about IME
# [00:17] * smaug thinks the API wasn't something people were too interested but some different feature set was more useful...
# [00:17] <timeless> Topic: XXXX
# [00:18] <timeless> [ Introductions ]
# [00:19] <timeless> s/XXXX/IME with PF/
# [00:20] <lyle> q?
# [00:20] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [00:20] * timeless present+ First_Last
# [00:20] <krisk> present+ krisk
# [00:20] <bryan> present+ Bryan_Sullivan
# [00:20] <eliot> present+ eliot_graff
# [00:20] <lgombos> present+ Laszlo_Gombos
# [00:20] * Joins: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak)
# [00:21] * timeless only people who haven't already present+'d ;-)
# [00:21] * Joins: MarkS_ (msadecki@public.cloak)
# [00:21] <timeless> MikeSmith: the Google Chrome team in Japan
# [00:21] <timeless> ... identified UCs
# [00:21] <timeless> ... if you're using Bing/Google Suggest
# [00:21] <timeless> ... where, as you type, the web app is taking your key events to give you some suggestions
# [00:21] <timeless> ... which might be things stored associated w/ your accont
# [00:21] <timeless> s/cont/count/
# [00:21] <adrianba> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ime-api/raw-file/default/use-cases/Overview.html#suggest
# [00:21] <timeless> ... terms you've searched before
# [00:22] <timeless> ... which is cool if you are typing w/ a language where you don't have an OS/Platform using an IME
# [00:22] * Joins: cyns (~cyns@public.cloak)
# [00:22] <timeless> ... what happens often in Desktop and Mobile
# [00:22] <timeless> ... the OS IME will pop up a candidate window of completions
# [00:22] <MarkS_> present+ Mark_Sadecki
# [00:22] <timeless> ... if you've never typed in Japanese
# [00:22] <timeless> ... what you first type into, in a buffer
# [00:22] <timeless> ... sometimes in Roman, some use Hiragana
# [00:23] <timeless> ... then there's a second step to turn things into XXZ
# [00:23] <timeless> ... the problem is that the candidates appear right on top of the page suggestions
# [00:23] * Quits: israelh (~israelh@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [00:23] <timeless> ... so to see the page suggestions, you need to scroll the page
# [00:23] * Joins: dmazzoni (~uid8025@public.cloak)
# [00:23] <timeless> ... we said "wouldn't it be cool"
# [00:23] <timeless> ... if you could while constructing games
# [00:23] * Quits: bhill2 (~bhill2@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [00:23] <timeless> ... if you could make your own IME in your app
# [00:24] <timeless> ... and you could tell the OS IME to go away completely
# [00:24] <timeless> ... that second UC ended up to be one that a lot of people don't think is super important
# [00:24] <timeless> ... at the last F2F, mjs said there was no UC for an IME in JS
# [00:24] <timeless> ... but we do have a positioning UC
# [00:24] <timeless> ... i can't speak to Google's priorities
# [00:24] <timeless> ... or schedule
# [00:24] <timeless> Zakim, who is on the phone?
# [00:24] <Zakim> On the phone I see Paypal, Olli_Pettay
# [00:25] <timeless> ... the primary UC is positioning
# [00:25] <timeless> chaals: apart from Chrome, what's the implementation status?
# [00:25] <timeless> MikeSmith: no one has implemented this
# [00:25] <timeless> ... kochi started this by sending a message for Blink
# [00:25] <timeless> ... saying he intends to implement
# [00:25] <Travis> q+
# [00:25] * Zakim sees Travis on the speaker queue
# [00:25] <timeless> ... and i understand he has a looks-good-to-me
# [00:25] <jcraig> q+ Janina
# [00:25] * Zakim sees Travis, Janina on the speaker queue
# [00:26] <jcraig> q+
# [00:26] * Zakim sees Travis, Janina, jcraig on the speaker queue
# [00:26] <timeless> chaals: Yandex, our primary market is Russian
# [00:26] <timeless> ... our users normally use a Russian keyboard
# [00:26] <timeless> ... we have UCs
# [00:26] <timeless> ... we have various IMEs that we build in JS in our various products
# [00:26] <ArtB> q?
# [00:26] * Zakim sees Travis, Janina, jcraig on the speaker queue
# [00:26] <timeless> ... so you can type in on a keyboard
# [00:26] <timeless> ... and we'll give Russian and English suggestions
# [00:26] <timeless> ... so you don't have to switch keyboards
# [00:26] <timeless> ... you can type a string of consontants
# [00:26] <timeless> ... and hit return
# [00:26] <timeless> ... and it will come out
# [00:27] <timeless> ... спасибо
# [00:27] * Quits: dmazzoni (~uid8025@public.cloak) ("")
# [00:27] <timeless> ... хорошо
# [00:27] <MikeSmith> q+ to say that we are looking for feature parity with Flash and other runtimes that do have access to interact with OS/platform IMEs
# [00:27] * Zakim sees Travis, Janina, jcraig, MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [00:27] <timeless> Travis: microsoft had a chance to review the document
# [00:27] <Travis> Microsoft proposal: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ime-api/raw-file/tip/proposals/IMEProposal.html
# [00:27] <timeless> ... quite a while ago
# [00:27] <timeless> ... and submitted feedback to the list
# [00:27] <MikeSmith> ack Travis
# [00:27] * Zakim sees Janina, jcraig, MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [00:27] <timeless> ... a quick overview
# [00:27] <timeless> ... it took the ED
# [00:27] <timeless> ... proposed changes
# [00:27] <timeless> ... to have the suggestions window in the right place
# [00:28] <timeless> ... and functionality to retrieve suggestion candidates
# [00:28] <timeless> ... and some optimization suggestions
# [00:28] <timeless> ... and some feedback around ...
# [00:28] <timeless> ack janina
# [00:28] * Zakim sees jcraig, MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [00:28] <timeless> Janina: thanks
# [00:28] <timeless> ... to give you a high level overview
# [00:28] <timeless> ... those who are also in HTML
# [00:28] <timeless> ... a number of folks in PF are interested in Rich Text Editing
# [00:28] <timeless> ... Russian, Korean, Chinese, etc.
# [00:28] <timeless> ... we think the UCs
# [00:29] <timeless> ... should take in more UCs than the ones you've laid out
# [00:29] <timeless> ... and i'll ask jcraig from apple to lay out some others
# [00:29] <timeless> ... not everyone in PF thinks they want to work on it
# [00:29] <timeless> ... but there's a significant amount of interest to move forward
# [00:29] <timeless> thank you for the time.
# [00:29] <timeless> s/thank/... thank/
# [00:29] <timeless> MikeSmith: part of this is getting feature parity with other runtimes
# [00:30] <timeless> ... Flash gives you the ability to interact w/ the platform
# [00:30] <timeless> ... IMEs
# [00:30] <timeless> jcraig: James Craig, Apple
# [00:30] <timeless> ... it's good you guys are working on this
# [00:30] <timeless> ... especially setEclusionRectange
# [00:30] <timeless> ... i think MS pointed out
# [00:30] <timeless> ... custom text editing is problematic
# [00:30] <timeless> ... for a lot of reasons beyond Pin-Yin and Romanji
# [00:30] * Quits: JaeChung (~JaeChung@public.cloak) ("http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client")
# [00:31] <timeless> ... when you do things in a custom Canvas style text editor
# [00:31] <timeless> ... and you do it in WebGL
# [00:31] <timeless> ... it'll prevent certain things from working
# [00:31] <timeless> ... it'll prevent screen readers from working
# [00:31] <timeless> ... prevent dragon dictate
# [00:31] <timeless> ... -- which has "change this `word` to this `word`"
# [00:31] <timeless> ... if this is something specific to Canvas
# [00:31] <timeless> ... very specific to CJK input methods
# [00:31] <timeless> ... we think this should work along the lines in SetCarat for Canvas
# [00:31] * yosuke s/Romanji/Romaji/
# [00:32] <timeless> ... if it's intended for more than that
# [00:32] <Travis> q+
# [00:32] * Zakim sees jcraig, MikeSmith, Travis on the speaker queue
# [00:32] <timeless> ... then this isn't nearly enough
# [00:32] <timeless> .. we need range link
# [00:32] <MikeSmith> q?
# [00:32] * Zakim sees jcraig, MikeSmith, Travis on the speaker queue
# [00:32] <timeless> s/../.../
# [00:32] <timeless> ... set value for range
# [00:32] <MikeSmith> q-
# [00:32] * Zakim sees jcraig, Travis on the speaker queue
# [00:32] <timeless> ... figure out where the caret should be
# [00:32] <MikeSmith> ack jcraig
# [00:32] * Zakim sees Travis on the speaker queue
# [00:32] <timeless> ... popup view
# [00:32] <timeless> ... get info about shape, position for suggestions
# [00:32] <timeless> ... if we're considering doing custom rich text editing
# [00:32] <timeless> ... more to be considered
# [00:32] <timeless> ... no way to do it in htlm
# [00:32] <timeless> s/htlm/html/
# [00:33] <timeless> ... there are ways to do it in every platform
# [00:33] <timeless> ... Google Docs has a completely custom view
# [00:33] <timeless> ... there's no way to do what they're doing in content editable
# [00:33] <timeless> ... they have no choice but to do custom views
# [00:33] <MikeSmith> is that Dominic Manzonni?
# [00:33] <timeless> ... we have no choice but to make it accessible to people w/ a variety of needs
# [00:33] <timeless> ... CJK, screen readers, magnification
# [00:33] <timeless> Travis: to point out
# [00:33] <timeless> ... i shouldn't be speaking on behalf of the editors
# [00:34] <jcraig> q+ Dominic
# [00:34] * Zakim sees Travis, Dominic on the speaker queue
# [00:34] <timeless> ... it doesn't appear the direction they're taking
# [00:34] * Joins: dmazzoni (~dmazzoni@public.cloak)
# [00:34] <timeless> ... is to support custom rich text editing experiences
# [00:34] <timeless> ... seems like they're scoping that out
# [00:34] <jcraig> q+
# [00:34] * Zakim sees Travis, Dominic, jcraig on the speaker queue
# [00:34] <timeless> ... more like supporting what system apis can do w/ regular text entry/text input
# [00:34] <timeless> ... MS has a strong view
# [00:34] <timeless> ... that you shouldn't use Canvas for rich text editing
# [00:34] <timeless> ... we understand it's being done that way, but it's a shame
# [00:35] <timeless> ... we'd rather spend effort to work on contentEditable
# [00:35] <timeless> ack Travis
# [00:35] * Zakim sees Dominic, jcraig on the speaker queue
# [00:35] <timeless> ack do
# [00:35] * Zakim sees jcraig on the speaker queue
# [00:35] <timeless> Dominic: not clear if it makes sense to compare ContentEditable w/ Canvas
# [00:35] <timeless> ... i looked at ACE
# [00:35] <timeless> ... Web Mirror
# [00:35] <timeless> ... a bunch of terminal emulators
# [00:35] <timeless> ... a bunch of text editors
# [00:35] <timeless> ... not a single one has focus in the native HTML input control
# [00:35] * Joins: lisa (~lisa@public.cloak)
# [00:36] <timeless> ... everything uses an offscreen contentEditable
# [00:36] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@public.cloak)
# [00:36] <sicking> +q
# [00:36] * Zakim sees jcraig, sicking on the speaker queue
# [00:36] <timeless> ... sometimes an offscreen text area
# [00:36] <timeless> ... to capture typed text, and text pasted from the clipboard
# [00:36] <MikeSmith> fyi for the record, from the associated use-case document: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ime-api/raw-file/default/use-cases/Overview.html#editor
# [00:36] <timeless> ... an offscreen contentEditable is the only way to capture rich text
# [00:37] <timeless> ... the method to render is Canvas, SVG, etc.
# [00:37] <timeless> ... some support multiple
# [00:37] <timeless> ... these are widely prevelant
# [00:37] <timeless> ... it's important to support IMEs, accessibility for custom text editor components
# [00:37] <timeless> q?
# [00:37] * Zakim sees jcraig, sicking on the speaker queue
# [00:37] <timeless> ack jcraig
# [00:37] * Zakim sees sicking on the speaker queue
# [00:37] <MikeSmith> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ime-api/raw-file/default/use-cases/Overview.html#custom-ime
# [00:37] <timeless> jcraig: good to know they're phasing out canvas
# [00:37] <timeless> ... that's what i saw in the FPWD
# [00:37] <timeless> ... for a combo box where you need an exclusion rectangle
# [00:37] <timeless> ... we have ARIA rectangles
# [00:38] <timeless> ... if you're using standard markup controls
# [00:38] <timeless> ... with ARIA
# [00:38] <timeless> ... our main concern is
# [00:38] <timeless> ... if we're going for the simple case, it can be covered w/ existing technologies
# [00:38] <timeless> ... if we're going for Custom Text editors, we need much more
# [00:38] <timeless> ack sicking
# [00:38] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [00:38] <timeless> sicking: one of the problems we're trying to tackle as we're going to mobile
# [00:38] <timeless> ... is how we do keyboards in mobile
# [00:38] <timeless> ... they're dramatically different from desktop
# [00:39] <timeless> ... and there's lots of research
# [00:39] <timeless> ... and we want to enable people to build custom keyboards
# [00:39] <timeless> ... the only realistic solution i see is contentEditable
# [00:39] <timeless> ... i don't blame people for not using contentEditable
# [00:39] <timeless> ... it's completely unusable
# [00:39] <timeless> ... even google can't build a decent editor using it
# [00:39] <timeless> ... i'd encourage people that want to enable editing on the web
# [00:39] <timeless> ... help work on contentEditable
# [00:40] <timeless> ... we'd need lots more for Canvas to work
# [00:40] <timeless> ... each browser has a dramatically different implementation for contentEditable
# [00:40] <timeless> ... you have to write 4 different contentEditable implementations
# [00:40] <cyns> +1
# [00:40] <timeless> ... if we specified it, we'd do much more for editing on the web
# [00:40] <MikeSmith> q+ to ask about what CodeMirror, Cloud9, ACE are using
# [00:40] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [00:40] <timeless> ... than Canvas/SVG editing
# [00:40] <timeless> ack MikeSmith
# [00:40] <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to ask about what CodeMirror, Cloud9, ACE are using
# [00:40] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [00:40] <timeless> MikeSmith: i'm ignorant about how it's used in actual editors
# [00:40] * Joins: tanvi (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [00:40] <timeless> ... i know Cloud9 started out as BeSpin
# [00:41] <timeless> ... which was Canvas, but now they're doing them the right way
# [00:41] <timeless> ... we can excise Canvas from the UC document, it's gone, i checked
# [00:41] <timeless> ... there's a Canvas example in the spec
# [00:41] <timeless> ... we can remove that
# [00:41] <timeless> ... i don't think it's necessary anymore
# [00:41] <timeless> ... it was needed 2 years ago
# [00:41] <timeless> ... but are CodeMirror/Cloud9 legitimate?
# [00:41] <ArtB> ACTION: smith ask the IME Editors to remove Canvas examples (e.g. images)
# [00:41] * RRSAgent records action 16
# [00:41] * @trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [00:41] <@trackbot> Created ACTION-690 - Ask the IME Editors to remove Canvas examples (e.g. images) [on Michael[tm] Smith - due 2013-05-02].
# [00:41] <timeless> Dominic: CodeMirror and ACE
# [00:41] <timeless> ... they do not use Canvas
# [00:42] <jcraig> q+ to say that the business logic for each web app is different, even the expected editing behavior per app would not be achievable with contenteditable
# [00:42] * Zakim sees jcraig on the speaker queue
# [00:42] <timeless> ... what you see visually is not the content of the focused contentEditable
# [00:42] <timeless> ... there's a separate visible contentEditalbe
# [00:42] <timeless> s/lbe/ble/
# [00:42] <timeless> ... if you wrote js
# [00:42] <sicking> q-
# [00:42] * Zakim sees jcraig on the speaker queue
# [00:42] <timeless> ... what the user sees is not what's being edited
# [00:42] <timeless> MikeSmith: so they're not accessible?
# [00:42] <timeless> Dominic: they're not
# [00:42] <timeless> MikeSmith: we can't do that
# [00:42] <timeless> ... i wish kochi was here
# [00:42] <timeless> ... i can take that feedback back
# [00:43] <timeless> chaals: so... strikes me
# [00:43] <timeless> ... you have a contentEditable where stuff is going on
# [00:43] <timeless> ... if you can look at that point
# [00:43] <timeless> ... you can do the work that the editor is doing
# [00:43] <timeless> ... when it takes the real interaction
# [00:43] <timeless> ... it strikes me that it would be feasible to make it work
# [00:43] <timeless> ... it might not be pleasant
# [00:43] <timeless> jcraig: prior to my work on A11Y
# [00:43] <timeless> ... i worked on XXXX
# [00:44] <timeless> ... these are usually used for capturing selection, paste, dictation
# [00:44] <timeless> ... there's never any time when the entire document content is in the region
# [00:44] <timeless> ... it's usually an empty region
# [00:44] <timeless> ... the changes aren't reconcilable with the business logic
# [00:44] <timeless> ... being able to translate back in a consistent way
# [00:44] <timeless> chaals: you'd need to replicate the business logic
# [00:44] <timeless> ... double procssing
# [00:44] <timeless> q?
# [00:44] * Zakim sees jcraig on the speaker queue
# [00:44] <timeless> ack jcraig
# [00:44] <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to say that the business logic for each web app is different, even the expected editing behavior per app would not be achievable with contenteditable
# [00:44] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [00:45] <MikeSmith> ACTION: Michael[tm] Smith to take back PFWG feedback to the IME API editor (Kochi) and propose we excise the mentions of DOM-based editor use-case in the use-case document, and the specific mentions of <canvas> in the actual spec
# [00:45] * RRSAgent records action 17
# [00:45] * @trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [00:45] <@trackbot> Created ACTION-691 - Smith to take back PFWG feedback to the IME API editor (Kochi) and propose we excise the mentions of DOM-based editor use-case in the use-case document, and the specific mentions of <canvas> in the actual spec [on Michael[tm] Smith - due 2013-05-02].
# [00:45] <timeless> jcraig: keyboard behavior may act differently in a ToC
# [00:45] <timeless> ... if you're on a link
# [00:45] <timeless> ... the business logic is only known by the web app
# [00:45] <timeless> ... it isn't known by contentEditable
# [00:45] <timeless> Dominic: i'm very much in favor of improving contentEditable
# [00:45] <timeless> ... but
# [00:45] <timeless> ... and we need to do that
# [00:45] <cyns> q+
# [00:45] * Zakim sees cyns on the speaker queue
# [00:45] <timeless> ... i've been playing around with it on the side
# [00:46] * Joins: JaeChung (~JaeChung@public.cloak)
# [00:46] <timeless> ... you can get a fair amount of accessibility at a fair level
# [00:46] <timeless> ... but to me, they seem
# [00:46] <timeless> ... to mention one
# [00:46] <timeless> ... to scare everyone
# [00:46] <timeless> ... you can take a hidden contentEditable
# [00:46] <timeless> ... it's invisible, but you can position it whereever
# [00:46] <jcraig> s/XXXX/a contenteditable wiki server/
# [00:46] <timeless> ... you can get the screen magnifier to follow it everywhere
# [00:46] <timeless> ... we're exploring that
# [00:46] <timeless> ... it's hard to get a short term solution
# [00:46] <timeless> ... for screen readers, to only care about one line of text
# [00:46] <timeless> ... it's possible to keep that line up to date
# [00:47] <timeless> ... but it's really difficult hacks
# [00:47] <timeless> ... we really need these apis
# [00:47] <timeless> ... we may need hundreds of apis
# [00:47] <timeless> ... ---
# [00:47] <timeless> ... any text like editor
# [00:47] <chaals> q+
# [00:47] * Zakim sees cyns, chaals on the speaker queue
# [00:47] <timeless> ... for IMEs, a11y, browser extensions
# [00:47] <timeless> ... think about what you could need
# [00:47] <timeless> q?
# [00:47] * Zakim sees cyns, chaals on the speaker queue
# [00:47] <MikeSmith> q+ to talk about use cases
# [00:47] * Zakim sees cyns, chaals, MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [00:47] <timeless> ack chaals
# [00:47] * Zakim sees cyns, MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [00:47] <timeless> ack cy
# [00:47] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [00:47] <timeless> q+ chaals
# [00:47] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, chaals on the speaker queue
# [00:48] <timeless> cyns: curious if a better editor would solve your needs
# [00:48] <chaals> q+
# [00:48] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, chaals on the speaker queue
# [00:48] <lyle> q?
# [00:48] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, chaals on the speaker queue
# [00:48] <timeless> ack MikeSmith
# [00:48] <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to talk about use cases
# [00:48] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
# [00:48] <timeless> MikeSmith: i'd like to make a concrete proposal
# [00:48] <timeless> ... we have a UC document
# [00:48] <timeless> ... this document is fairly minimal
# [00:48] <timeless> ... from what i'm hearing
# [00:48] <MikeSmith> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ime-api/raw-file/default/use-cases/Overview.html
# [00:48] <jcraig> q+ to mention table editing in contenteditable, and
# [00:48] * Zakim sees chaals, jcraig on the speaker queue
# [00:48] <timeless> ... we need to remove a couple of UCs
# [00:48] <timeless> ... they aren't going to survive
# [00:48] <timeless> ... they won't get implemented
# [00:48] <timeless> ... the editors who've been working on this
# [00:49] <timeless> ... this is their first experience working in w3c
# [00:49] <timeless> ... their first experience w/ objections and getting implementations
# [00:49] <jcraig> q-
# [00:49] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
# [00:49] <timeless> ... i need to help them understand it's unlikely to go forward on this
# [00:49] <timeless> MikeSmith: there are 5 UCs
# [00:50] <cyns> my comment was "would a better editor plus and extensibility model for that editor meet your needs?"
# [00:50] <timeless> ... 1 - DOM based editor
# [00:50] <timeless> ... 5 - Web based app providing an IME
# [00:50] <timeless> ... 2 - Suggest
# [00:50] <timeless> ... 3 - to turn off IME (gaming that doesn't require text input)
# [00:50] <timeless> ... 4 - informational, like Flash -- talking to IME
# [00:50] <timeless> MikeSmith: i think we need to remove 1 and 5
# [00:50] <timeless> .... and have spec focus on the middle 3
# [00:50] * Quits: tanvi (~Adium@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [00:51] <timeless> ... can Travis speak to the doc?
# [00:51] * Quits: tantek_ (~tantek_@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [00:51] <timeless> Travis: there might be
# [00:51] <timeless> ... what you suggests sounds reasonable
# [00:51] <timeless> ... maybe we can add some
# [00:51] <timeless> MikeSmith: and then see what survived in the spec
# [00:51] <timeless> ... we were focused on 5
# [00:51] <Travis> q+
# [00:51] * Zakim sees chaals, Travis on the speaker queue
# [00:51] <timeless> ack chaals
# [00:51] * Zakim sees Travis on the speaker queue
# [00:51] <timeless> chaals: we'd have a problem w/ removing 1 and 5
# [00:52] <timeless> ... comment was
# [00:52] <timeless> ... w/ IME spec, the goal is where the text gets dropped into whatever is taking text
# [00:52] <jcraig> q+ to address use case 5
# [00:52] * Zakim sees Travis, jcraig on the speaker queue
# [00:52] <timeless> ... once you've started entering text, what do you do w/ it then?
# [00:52] <timeless> ... afaict, the IME has no influence there
# [00:52] * Quits: TylerB (~TylerB@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [00:52] <timeless> ... not a problem solved/broken, that's after the IME is done
# [00:52] <timeless> ... i understand that concern, it's important for editing APIs/contentEditable
# [00:53] <timeless> ... i don't think it crosses over w/ the IME API itself
# [00:53] <timeless> q?
# [00:53] * Zakim sees Travis, jcraig on the speaker queue
# [00:53] <timeless> ack Travis
# [00:53] * Zakim sees jcraig on the speaker queue
# [00:53] <timeless> Travis: what we've heard from A11y
# [00:53] <timeless> ... this is really good feedback
# [00:53] <timeless> ... it may have landed on the wrong group
# [00:53] <timeless> ... MS is interested in working on contentEditable
# [00:53] <timeless> ... we've sent a couple of messages to the list to generate ideas
# [00:53] <timeless> ... cases that are broken, trying to work up a solution
# [00:53] <timeless> ack jcraig
# [00:53] <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to address use case 5
# [00:53] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [00:54] <timeless> jcraig: re Travis
# [00:54] <timeless> ... Dominic and rich and ...
# [00:54] <timeless> ... contentEditable provides the equivalent of Wordpad
# [00:54] <timeless> ... not necessarily in a consistent form
# [00:54] <timeless> ... if it catches up
# [00:54] <timeless> ... there will always be a chase
# [00:55] <timeless> ... there will always be a legitimate UC for an engineer to decide contentEditable isn't good enough
# [00:55] <timeless> ... separate from IME, WebApps should consider direct access for text editing
# [00:55] <timeless> ... re overriding system IME
# [00:55] <timeless> ... and letting web app draw out completely
# [00:55] <timeless> ... i'd encourage you to allow it to
# [00:55] <ArtB> -> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ime-api/raw-file/default/use-cases/Overview.html#custom-ime UC #5 [custom-ime] Enable a Web application to provide its own IME
# [00:55] <timeless> ... allow the screen reader to access the ime
# [00:55] <timeless> ... indicate particular character
# [00:56] <timeless> ... chaals, i heard you say once a candidate is inserted
# [00:56] <timeless> ... but during an insertion, characters may be inserted/removed as you continue typing
# [00:56] <timeless> ... maybe not in DOM, but in native input
# [00:56] <timeless> chaals: if you take over system ime, you'd probably want to support talking to system ime
# [00:56] <timeless> ... and that's important
# [00:56] <timeless> ... and we should be aware of
# [00:57] <timeless> ... people are going to give them this IME, and they're going to make stuff that's broken and crap
# [00:57] <timeless> ... that's what freedom is for
# [00:57] * timeless they'll send code to cause the IME to crash/Blue screen
# [00:57] * Quits: marcosc (~marcosc@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [00:57] <timeless> ... i'd encourage you guys to comment on the IME stuff
# [00:57] <timeless> ... file comments, keep talking to us
# [00:57] <timeless> ... about things you see potential concerns
# [00:57] <timeless> ... we aren't very good at A11y
# [00:57] <timeless> ... we put on a good dinner
# [00:57] <timeless> jcraig: thanks for having us here
# [00:58] <timeless> chaals: the editing case, isn't just the IME
# [00:58] <timeless> ... it's a much more constrained set of issues
# [00:58] <timeless> jcraig: the IME is a subset
# [00:58] <timeless> ... of the larger issue
# [00:58] <timeless> Travis: in a lot of editors, we get a temporary text area, where you're doing text input
# [00:58] <timeless> ... and finessing things
# [00:58] <timeless> ... and then that text gets reintegrated
# [00:58] <timeless> ... and that squirreled away text editing system isn't accessible
# [00:59] <timeless> jcraig: not to screen readers, and only to Zoom and IME / dictation, w/ severe hacks
# [00:59] <timeless> chaals: if your custom IME were talking to your system IME
# [00:59] <MikeSmith> q?
# [00:59] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [00:59] <timeless> ... screen readers would be picking it up from the IME?
# [00:59] <timeless> chaals: you'd have to implement this well
# [00:59] <timeless> ... not automatic
# [00:59] <timeless> jcraig: another example
# [00:59] <timeless> ... customized UI, visual UI
# [00:59] <timeless> ... vision impairments
# [01:00] <timeless> ... turn it off completely, that's something the UA should override
# [01:00] <timeless> ... no you can't render you own ime
# [01:00] <timeless> Dominic: i don't want to take the view that we shouldn't be doing this because it's incomplete
# [01:00] <timeless> ... one potential step forward
# [01:00] <timeless> ... if we wanted to get as much through for the IME UC
# [01:00] <jcraig> s/should override/should be able to override/
# [01:01] <timeless> ... take setCurrentRectangle
# [01:01] * Quits: JaeChung (~JaeChung@public.cloak) ("http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client")
# [01:01] <jcraig> s/vision impairments/vision impairments or cognitive impairments/
# [01:01] <timeless> ... it's minimally defined to provide the minimal needed for an IME
# [01:01] <timeless> ... let's define this in a more comprehensive way
# [01:01] <timeless> ... to provide info about the caret
# [01:01] <timeless> ... that an a11y agent would need
# [01:01] <timeless> ... we know a11y apis need this
# [01:01] <timeless> ... rather than a rectangle
# [01:02] <timeless> ... we need more when it's a selection
# [01:02] <timeless> ... could we extend the api a bit
# [01:02] <timeless> chaals: we've run out of time
# [01:02] <timeless> ... thank you very much
# [01:02] <timeless> ... we encourage you to keep on providing comments
# [01:02] <timeless> ... i heard a requirement that the user must be able to turn off the app provided IME
# [01:02] <timeless> ... an a11y requirement
# [01:02] <timeless> jcraig: i'd have to look, but that seems likely
# [01:03] <timeless> chaals: we should anticipate
# [01:03] <timeless> giving people freedom to do crazy stuff
# [01:03] <timeless> s/giving/... giving/
# [01:03] <timeless> ... they're likely to create problems
# [01:03] <timeless> ... "if you do this, the world will break"
# [01:03] <timeless> ... "so please don't"
# [01:03] <timeless> ... "here's the things it'd be helpful to avoid"
# [01:05] * Quits: tobie (tobie@public.cloak)
# [01:05] * Quits: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [01:05] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [01:05] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
# [01:07] * Quits: lisa (~lisa@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [01:08] * Quits: dmazzoni (~dmazzoni@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [01:09] * Quits: cyns (~cyns@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [01:09] <Zakim> +Aaron_Colwell
# [01:13] <timeless> topic: File API
# [01:13] <timeless> arun: Arun, your friendly File API editor
# [01:14] <timeless> ... perhaps some things we should talk about in this meeting
# [01:14] <ArtB> -> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/FileAPI/ File API ED
# [01:14] <timeless> ... what it would take to get File API to LC
# [01:14] <timeless> ... there's also a Mozilla proposal for a File System API
# [01:14] <timeless> ... it went out this morning
# [01:14] <ArtB> -> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=WebAppsWG&component=File%20API&;resolution=--- File API Bugs
# [01:14] <timeless> ... you can blame sicking for that
# [01:14] <timeless> ... there are 3 problems w/ the File API
# [01:14] <timeless> ... 1. thinking of the File API w/ new tech, like Futures
# [01:14] <timeless> ... that shouldn't be gating to LC
# [01:15] <timeless> ... we could do that in another draft
# [01:15] <timeless> ... perhaps the File object itself works in the futures API model
# [01:15] <timeless> ... that may be a candidate for another draft
# [01:15] <timeless> ... there are already things shipping with this
# [01:15] <timeless> ... 2. read chaining
# [01:15] <timeless> ... adrianba isn't here
# [01:15] <timeless> ... if you spawn multiple reads off a load event
# [01:16] <timeless> ... the firing of a loadend event can confuse the read
# [01:16] <timeless> ... i'm willing to look at that
# [01:16] <timeless> ... i think it's fairly simple to get it right
# [01:16] <timeless> ... - how to suppress loadend
# [01:16] * Joins: JaeChung (~JaeChung@public.cloak)
# [01:16] <timeless> ... 3. blob urls are used across the platform
# [01:16] <timeless> ... for everything
# [01:16] <timeless> ... blob url lifetime issues aren't nailed down
# [01:16] <timeless> ... ms impl has slightly different syntax to automatically revoke blob urls
# [01:16] <timeless> ... to simplify developer's code
# [01:17] <timeless> ... so developers don't have to call revoke()
# [01:17] <timeless> ... the current proposal doesn't thrill anyone
# [01:17] <timeless> ... -- those are the three gating factors
# [01:17] <timeless> ... before LC
# [01:17] <timeless> ... questions?
# [01:17] <timeless> [ silence ]
# [01:17] <timeless> sicking: we sent well ahead of time this morning
# [01:17] <timeless> ... an email to the ML
# [01:17] <timeless> [ laughter ]
# [01:17] * Quits: MarkS_ (msadecki@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [01:17] <timeless> sicking: which may surprise all of ou
# [01:18] <timeless> s/ou/you/
# [01:18] <timeless> ... that we've reconsidered our staunch disapproval of file system apis
# [01:18] <timeless> ... mozilla has always said no
# [01:18] <timeless> ... arguing Indexed DB solves existing UCs
# [01:18] <timeless> ... but others can be solved other ways
# [01:18] <timeless> ... two things
# [01:18] * Joins: MarkS (msadecki@public.cloak)
# [01:18] <ArtB> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2013AprJun/0382.html Mozilla's 25-Apr-2013 File API proposal
# [01:18] <timeless> ... 1. no one has solved these things that indexed db can't solve
# [01:18] <timeless> ... -- two things
# [01:18] * Quits: MarkS (msadecki@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [01:18] <ArtB> s/File API/File system API/
# [01:19] <timeless> ... -- file system url has lots of nice properties
# [01:19] * odinho almost like being there with this scribing
# [01:19] <timeless> ... -- you know which url you can access directly from the file system
# [01:19] <timeless> ... -- file system api supports in place editing
# [01:19] <timeless> ... -- predictable and persistent
# [01:19] <timeless> ... we have support for indexed DB
# [01:19] <timeless> ... but it hasn't gotten traction
# [01:19] <timeless> ... i wrote a blog about file system
# [01:19] <timeless> ... saying what it supports, what you think it does, but actually doesn't
# [01:20] <timeless> ... we got 3 pieces of feedback
# [01:20] <timeless> ... file systems as a concept is nice and understandable thing
# [01:20] <timeless> ... nice for web to have such an api
# [01:20] <timeless> ... easier to use than indexed db
# [01:20] <timeless> ... second: file system urls are nice
# [01:20] <timeless> ... third: we don't really like the current file system
# [01:20] <timeless> ... so we took another file system we already had
# [01:20] <timeless> ... we had discussions w/ people months ago
# [01:21] <timeless> ... which led to a counter proposal from apple
# [01:21] <timeless> ... and some people from mozilla and apple met up
# [01:21] <timeless> ... which led to this proposal
# [01:21] <timeless> ... no one has committed to implementing this proposal
# [01:21] <timeless> ... it's a few hours old
# [01:21] <timeless> ... we're interested in implementing it, if others are interested
# [01:21] <timeless> ... alternatively, we could try to solve these UCs using indexed db
# [01:21] <timeless> ... so far no one has
# [01:21] <timeless> ... interested in hearing what other people are thinking
# [01:21] <timeless> ... in particular apple
# [01:21] <timeless> chaals: welcome to the 21st century
# [01:22] <timeless> Travis: is this virtualized or real?
# [01:22] * odinho :o
# [01:22] <timeless> sicking: exactly the feature set that google is exposing to web pages
# [01:22] <timeless> ... it's a sandbox
# [01:22] <timeless> ... we wouldn't recommend any implementations implement on top of a file system
# [01:22] <timeless> ... we're intending to implement on top of a database
# [01:22] <timeless> ... possibly indexed db
# [01:23] <timeless> ... not intended to be mapped onto the underlying file system
# [01:23] <timeless> Zakim, who's on the phone?
# [01:23] <Zakim> On the phone I see Paypal, Olli_Pettay, Aaron_Colwell
# [01:23] <chaals> q+
# [01:23] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
# [01:23] <timeless> Travis: what's the security boundary of the sandbox?
# [01:23] <timeless> ... who can access it?
# [01:23] <timeless> ... can you get file handles and share them through postMessage?
# [01:24] <timeless> sicking: the intent is it's the same as indexed DB
# [01:24] <timeless> ... each origin has its own set of databases
# [01:24] <timeless> ... each origin has its own file system
# [01:24] <timeless> ... you can get file objects from the file system
# [01:24] <timeless> ... you could postMessage them
# [01:24] <timeless> ... file handle represents an open file
# [01:24] <timeless> ... we haven't proposed that you could pass those
# [01:24] <timeless> ... in theory, it might be possible
# [01:24] <timeless> ... something we could look at
# [01:24] <timeless> ... but not a pillar of this proposal
# [01:24] <timeless> q?
# [01:24] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
# [01:24] <timeless> ack chaals
# [01:24] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [01:25] <timeless> chaals: you don't allow sharing a real file between an app and another app
# [01:25] <timeless> ... or not?
# [01:25] <timeless> sicking: that's what i'm saying
# [01:25] <timeless> chaals: i take back what i'm saying
# [01:25] <timeless> darobin: in sicking 's defense
# [01:25] <timeless> ... if there's a standardized way of storing content
# [01:25] <timeless> ... it means another app could talk to the UA
# [01:25] <timeless> ... so you could have a system wide way of an app discovering others files
# [01:26] <timeless> chaals: if you had an OS not entirely based on your browser
# [01:26] <timeless> ... most of your apps couldn't share the files w/ the file system api
# [01:26] <timeless> ... that seems like you're losing a lot of the value of a file system
# [01:26] <timeless> ... this is just indexed db?
# [01:26] <timeless> sicking: this is just indexed db
# [01:26] <timeless> ... many ways to envision the sharing between the file system api and the user
# [01:26] <bryan> q+
# [01:26] * Zakim sees bryan on the speaker queue
# [01:26] <timeless> ... in firefox os, we're doing something which lets the web page get access to the user's pictures folder
# [01:27] <timeless> ... and then it's mapped to the backend filesystem
# [01:27] <timeless> ... we have a way of addressing security
# [01:27] <timeless> ... not necessarily a good way
# [01:27] <timeless> ... we have a crappy solution involving signing and unwebby things
# [01:27] <chaals> q+
# [01:27] * Zakim sees bryan, chaals on the speaker queue
# [01:27] <timeless> ... it's what google tried to do
# [01:27] <timeless> ... where you guys were trying to back the sandbox file system and had issues
# [01:27] <timeless> EricU: our sandbox file system, the files are backed by real files
# [01:27] <timeless> ... the directories are backed by a database
# [01:28] <timeless> ... the filenames are obfuscated
# [01:28] <timeless> ... flie extensions don't bleed to the file system
# [01:28] <timeless> ... the file system api allows you to get access to photos
# [01:28] <arun> q+
# [01:28] * Zakim sees bryan, chaals, arun on the speaker queue
# [01:28] <timeless> ... it's a great way to write web apps to access those things
# [01:28] <timeless> ... but it isn't something you want to expose to the drive by web
# [01:28] <timeless> ... you don't want a web page to write an executable to the photos directory
# [01:28] <timeless> ... we don't have a security solution
# [01:29] <timeless> ... we only allow for apps and extensions, presumably installed w/ informed consent
# [01:29] <timeless> ack bryan
# [01:29] * Zakim sees chaals, arun on the speaker queue
# [01:29] <timeless> bryan: two suggestions
# [01:29] <timeless> ... have you considered, certainly domain-specific, origin-specific
# [01:29] <timeless> ... have you considered making a non-private portion
# [01:29] <timeless> ... for low risk data?
# [01:29] <timeless> ... and let the app decide what it wants to put there
# [01:29] <sicking> q+
# [01:29] * Zakim sees chaals, arun, sicking on the speaker queue
# [01:30] <chaals> q+ robin
# [01:30] * Zakim sees chaals, arun, sicking, robin on the speaker queue
# [01:30] <timeless> q+ bryan
# [01:30] * Zakim sees chaals, arun, sicking, robin, bryan on the speaker queue
# [01:30] <timeless> sicking: we're looking at data sharing between apps
# [01:30] <timeless> ... and presumably something between web pages
# [01:30] <timeless> ... i don't think that's limited to file systems
# [01:30] <timeless> ... data sharing between apps
# [01:30] <timeless> ... is an interesting question, but orthogonal
# [01:30] <timeless> ack bryan
# [01:30] * Zakim sees chaals, arun, sicking, robin on the speaker queue
# [01:30] <timeless> bryan: the sharing of a file handle between applications
# [01:30] <timeless> ... i want to give this only application
# [01:30] <timeless> sicking: same answer
# [01:30] <timeless> ack chaals
# [01:30] * Zakim sees arun, sicking, robin on the speaker queue
# [01:30] <sicking> q-
# [01:30] * Zakim sees arun, robin on the speaker queue
# [01:31] <timeless> chaals: take your point about exposing random access files to drive by web
# [01:31] <timeless> ... want to be careful
# [01:31] <timeless> ... but w/ those provisos
# [01:31] <bryan> it would be good to provide an option to create an open/shareable file space, or sharing of file handle with a specific app
# [01:31] <timeless> ... a file system that doesn't let you use files
# [01:31] <timeless> ... of which there are a few deployed around the world
# [01:31] <timeless> ... is kind of missing something
# [01:31] * Quits: JaeChung (~JaeChung@public.cloak) ("http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client")
# [01:31] <timeless> sicking: looking forward to your counterproposal
# [01:31] <timeless> chaals: opera sent it 6 years ago
# [01:32] <timeless> sicking: it didn't get traction for a reason
# [01:32] <timeless> chaals: it's like google's proposal
# [01:32] <timeless> ... for some value of trust, you can get at the file system
# [01:32] <timeless> arun: it's different
# [01:32] <timeless> chaals: it's 3 years older
# [01:32] <timeless> q?
# [01:32] * Zakim sees arun, robin on the speaker queue
# [01:32] <timeless> darobin: designing a file system isn't rocket sciense
# [01:32] <timeless> s/sciense/science/
# [01:32] <timeless> ... it's security/sharing that's the problem
# [01:33] <timeless> ... sharing between apps
# [01:33] <timeless> ... sharing between web sites
# [01:33] <timeless> ... it's the super cookie from hell
# [01:33] <timeless> ... nothing prevents this api from accessing a real file system
# [01:33] <timeless> ... but the default should be virtual
# [01:33] <timeless> ... accessing the real/more should be outside for later
# [01:33] <timeless> chaals: you can build this on top of a real file system
# [01:33] <timeless> darobin: when we played with ideas like this in dap
# [01:34] <timeless> ... the basic api was virtualized
# [01:34] <timeless> ... and another api exposed the real file system
# [01:34] <timeless> ... which would allow whatever
# [01:34] <timeless> ack arun
# [01:34] * Zakim sees robin on the speaker queue
# [01:34] <timeless> arun: can i go back and talk about file api
# [01:34] <timeless> ... adrianba returned
# [01:35] <timeless> [off the record ]
# [01:36] <darobin> q?
# [01:36] * Zakim sees robin on the speaker queue
# [01:36] * smaug agrees with adrianba
# [01:37] <timeless> arun: the hard work is to find a technical solution for blob-uri lifetime management
# [01:37] <timeless> ... it might take ages
# [01:37] <timeless> ArtB: ages is?
# [01:37] <timeless> arun: not very long
# [01:37] <timeless> sicking: in geological times
# [01:37] <timeless> adrianba: there's a minor issue w/ events that get fired for rechaining
# [01:38] <timeless> ... the lifetime of blogs and revoking them is something we've talked about for a pretty long time
# [01:38] <timeless> ... lots of nuance to it
# [01:38] <timeless> ... part of the issue to resolve is what degree of interop do we need?
# [01:38] <timeless> ... how similar do we have to be
# [01:38] <timeless> ... if we have to be identical
# [01:38] <timeless> ... we probably can't solve it
# [01:38] <timeless> ... people's networks stacks work differently
# [01:38] <timeless> ... did you talk about same origin?
# [01:38] <timeless> arun: no
# [01:38] <timeless> adrianba: one of the properties of a blob uri created through createObjectURL()
# [01:39] <timeless> ... is that you can only dereference it in the same-origin
# [01:39] <timeless> ... there's been a request to relax it
# [01:39] <timeless> ... relying on the fact that the string itself shouldn't be guessable
# [01:39] <timeless> ... it would have to be passed, it wouldn't be predictable
# [01:39] <timeless> ... i'm open to exploring this possibility
# [01:39] <timeless> ... but in discussions we've had today
# [01:40] <timeless> ... we've always parked the discussion wrt origin
# [01:40] <timeless> ... we've always had this property that they had an origin constraint
# [01:40] <timeless> ... relaxing it isn't something i'd want to do lightly
# [01:40] <timeless> ... and i think we've made implementation optimizations
# [01:40] <timeless> ... removing it from the spec is easy
# [01:40] <timeless> ... changing our implementation is much more work
# [01:40] <timeless> ... my fear is we make interop much worse for a period of time
# [01:41] <timeless> ... it might be an IE thing
# [01:41] <timeless> ... but we've been working on it for a while, but that's been in the spec for a long time
# [01:41] <timeless> ... changing it before LC
# [01:41] <timeless> ... hopefully the final LC
# [01:41] <timeless> arun: right now, there's no change made to the origin policy
# [01:41] <timeless> ... i think most UCs can be addressed w/o relaxing that
# [01:41] <timeless> ... so unless someone has a strong reason, i see no reason to change that
# [01:41] <timeless> ... and if that helps get to interop, that's fine
# [01:42] <timeless> sicking: i'm a little split
# [01:42] <timeless> ... on one hand
# [01:42] * Zakim sees robin, ... on the speaker queue
# [01:42] <timeless> .... i have been convinced it's a silly restriction
# [01:42] <timeless> ... but
# [01:42] <timeless> ... this is essentially adding a new feature
# [01:42] <timeless> ... anytime you add a new feature, it decreases interop
# [01:42] <timeless> ... it's a feature that's harder to test for
# [01:42] <timeless> ... it seems like a feature we can live w/o for v1
# [01:42] <timeless> ... it's a scary thing to add for v2
# [01:43] <timeless> ... since it's relaxing for security
# [01:43] <timeless> ... but it's probably fine
# [01:43] <timeless> ... but if some site announces to the world any blob they generate
# [01:43] <timeless> ... and we relax
# [01:43] <timeless> ... but it's probably fine
# [01:43] <timeless> ... to do for a second version
# [01:43] * arun thinks we're at a wrap
# [01:44] <timeless> ... on File System
# [01:44] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [01:44] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
# [01:44] * Yves azakim, this call spans midhnight
# [01:44] <timeless> ... mozilla's interested in implementing
# [01:44] * Yves zakim, this call spans midhnight
# [01:44] * Zakim I don't understand 'this call spans midhnight', Yves
# [01:44] * Yves zakim, this call spans midnight
# [01:44] * Zakim I don't understand 'this call spans midnight', Yves
# [01:44] <timeless> EricU: i certainly agree with mozilla's arguments on the file system
# [01:44] <chaals> zakim, this meeting spans midnight
# [01:44] <Zakim> I don't understand 'this meeting spans midnight', chaals
# [01:44] <timeless> ... they're familiar since i said them three years ago
# [01:44] <timeless> ... but we've already got one
# [01:44] <timeless> ... it was designed by committee
# [01:44] <timeless> ... we've already got it
# [01:44] <timeless> ... we've already shipped it
# [01:44] <timeless> ... people are using it
# [01:44] <timeless> ... especially in our apps
# [01:45] * Yves rrsagent, this call spans midnight
# [01:45] <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'this call spans midnight', Yves. Try /msg RRSAgent help
# [01:45] <timeless> ... but also in web pages
# [01:45] <timeless> ... it doesn't use futures
# [01:45] <timeless> ... were i to design it today, it would probably look closer to sicking 's
# [01:45] <timeless> ... locking is very nice
# [01:45] * Yves rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight
# [01:45] <RRSAgent> ok, Yves; I will not start a new log at midnight
# [01:45] <timeless> ... we don't have locking or flush
# [01:45] <timeless> ... but we didn't want to add more w/o interest in implementing
# [01:45] <timeless> ... we think it's good for the web to have a standard api
# [01:46] <timeless> ... and we want something implemented in all browsers
# [01:46] <chaals> rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight
# [01:46] <RRSAgent> ok, chaals; I will not start a new log at midnight
# [01:46] <timeless> ... but we already implemented one
# [01:46] <timeless> ... if mozilla and others implement
# [01:46] <timeless> ... i'd expect we'll implement
# [01:46] <timeless> ... but we'd be last
# [01:46] <timeless> chaals: no, we're behind you
# [01:46] <timeless> hober: similar thing
# [01:46] * Joins: JaeChung (~JaeChung@public.cloak)
# [01:46] <timeless> ... you posted to the mailing list a couple of hours ago
# [01:46] <timeless> ... i'll commit to expressing an opinion soon
# [01:46] <timeless> chaals: meetings with futures implemented
# [01:47] <timeless> hober: yes, i'm returning a DOMFuture
# [01:47] <timeless> chaals: arun thinks we're at a wrap
# [01:47] <timeless> ArtB: anyone think we should move everything to futureS?
# [01:47] <timeless> s/S/s/
# [01:47] <timeless> ... i'm not hearing support
# [01:47] <timeless> arun: i'm willing to do a separate draft for Futures
# [01:47] <timeless> ... to not cramp this
# [01:47] <timeless> ArtB: how much more hashing out do you need?
# [01:48] <timeless> arun: rechaining is pretty straightforward
# [01:48] <timeless> ... tricky, but not as hard as bloburi
# [01:48] <timeless> ... bloburi, i'll have to talk more
# [01:48] <timeless> adrianba: we'll have to talk more
# [01:48] <timeless> ArtB: how long?
# [01:48] <timeless> arun: i have a proposal, i'd like to see if it's ok
# [01:48] <timeless> ... if i get buy in, it won't take long
# [01:48] <timeless> ... but that hasn't historically happened
# [01:48] <timeless> ArtB: have you put it to the list?
# [01:48] <timeless> arun: not yet
# [01:49] <timeless> chaals: we've run out of coffee
# [01:49] * timeless heycam ping
# [01:49] * heycam pong
# [01:49] <chaals> heycam, can you call in for 10 min?
# [01:49] <heycam> yes
# [01:49] <timeless> ... i'd suggest we get heycam in for a update w/ WebIDL
# [01:50] <chaals> zakim, code
# [01:50] <Zakim> I don't understand 'code', chaals
# [01:50] <heycam> Zakim, code?
# [01:50] <Zakim> the conference code is 92323 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), heycam
# [01:50] <timeless> ArtB: wonsuk, can we do XHR and Progress to tomorrow?
# [01:50] <timeless> wonsuk: ok
# [01:50] <timeless> chaals: Progress has been pushed off until tomorrow
# [01:50] <timeless> ... we'll implement it with futures
# [01:51] * chaals notes we are waiting for you to get here heycam...
# [01:51] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [01:51] <heycam> Zakim, [ is me
# [01:51] <Zakim> +heycam; got it
# [01:51] <timeless> Topic: WebIDL
# [01:51] <timeless> chaals: heycam, welcome to webapps
# [01:51] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [01:51] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [01:52] <timeless> heycam: i haven't done much on WebIDL in the last couple of months
# [01:52] <timeless> ... i've got a thousand unread emails in the folder
# [01:52] <timeless> present+ Cameron_McCormack_(heycam)
# [01:52] <timeless> ... i don't think there's much to get v1
# [01:52] <timeless> ... with its issues closed
# [01:52] <Travis> q+
# [01:52] * Zakim sees robin, ..., Travis on the speaker queue
# [01:52] <timeless> ... i split the spec into v1 and v2
# [01:52] <timeless> q- robin
# [01:52] * Zakim sees ..., Travis on the speaker queue
# [01:53] <timeless> q=
# [01:53] * Zakim timeless, if you meant to query the queue, please say 'q?'; if you meant to replace the queue, please say 'queue= ...'
# [01:53] <timeless> q=Travis
# [01:53] * Zakim timeless, if you meant to query the queue, please say 'q?'; if you meant to replace the queue, please say 'queue= ...'
# [01:53] <timeless> queue=Travis
# [01:53] * Zakim sees Travis on the speaker queue
# [01:53] <timeless> ... v2 was for new features
# [01:53] <timeless> ... i recon it'd only take a few weeks to get v1 ready for republication again
# [01:53] <timeless> ... once i've closed off all the issues
# [01:53] <timeless> chaals: any likelihood of having a couple of weeks to do solid work
# [01:54] <timeless> ... in the next six months
# [01:54] <timeless> heycam: i kind of plan to get back to solving some of these issues starting in a few weeks
# [01:54] <timeless> ... kinda scary after a few months of inaction
# [01:54] <timeless> ... starting say mid-May
# [01:54] <timeless> ... saying this puts more pressure on me
# [01:54] <timeless> chaals: so, in 2 weeks
# [01:54] <timeless> ... you start work
# [01:54] <timeless> ... and end of May, i visit you
# [01:55] <timeless> heycam: i'd like to look at the ML to see what needs to be done
# [01:55] <timeless> ... on the ML, there's been a lot of discussion of broader issues of IDL languages
# [01:55] <timeless> ... those things don't need to be solved immediately
# [01:55] <timeless> ... for v1
# [01:55] <timeless> ... those are conversations i've been ignoring recently
# [01:55] <timeless> ... i think they shouldn't hold up progress on WebIDL
# [01:55] <timeless> ... but in the future, we may look at them
# [01:56] <timeless> chaals: but you're reasonably optimistic that before the end of June that we could have this kicking along and getting to REC
# [01:56] <timeless> ... i'm imagining a LC in late May (early July)
# [01:56] <timeless> s/(early July)//
# [01:56] <timeless> ... and that draft is likely to be pretty solid, and don
# [01:57] <timeless> ... from there, we aren't expecting piles of changes
# [01:57] <timeless> heycam: the spec, what's on TR
# [01:57] * timeless -> http://www.w3.org/TR/WebIDL/ WebIDL
# [01:57] <timeless> ... implementations have been improved since it was published
# [01:57] <timeless> ... and have sent feedback
# [01:58] <timeless> ... whether there are other implementations around to help it go past CR
# [01:58] <timeless> ... i imagine a LC and then CR
# [01:58] <timeless> ... i'm wondering if there are enough implementations to progress the spec
# [01:58] <timeless> ... and also test suites
# [01:58] <timeless> chaals: a key question is
# [01:58] <timeless> ... what's an implementation of WebIDL?
# [01:58] <timeless> ... lots of ways you can use it
# [01:58] <timeless> ... you can put it in browsers
# [01:59] <timeless> ... but other kinds of implementations are potential more interesting than having it in a browser
# [01:59] <timeless> heycam: we talked about how to come up w/ a test suite
# [01:59] <timeless> ... a tentative plan was to select features from specifications that are relatively stable
# [01:59] <timeless> ... which covers the features of WebIDL
# [01:59] <timeless> ... and write tests for the WebIDL parts of those
# [01:59] <timeless> ... Node.type and test if it's a number in js
# [02:00] <timeless> ... i'm not sure if any work was done on that
# [02:00] <timeless> ... not sure if tests were written
# [02:00] <timeless> ... i know Travis had his hand up
# [02:00] * Zakim timeless, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
# [02:00] <chaals> q+ travis
# [02:00] * Zakim sees Travis on the speaker queue
# [02:00] <chaals> ack tra
# [02:00] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [02:00] <timeless> heycam: our goal for getting to PR
# [02:00] <timeless> ... is to demonstrate two interoperable implementations
# [02:00] <timeless> chaals: to convince the director that this works interoperably
# [02:01] <timeless> Travis: to convince the director, we convince him that there are two implementations that meet this
# [02:01] <timeless> ... we need a test suite
# [02:01] <plh> q+
# [02:01] * Zakim sees plh on the speaker queue
# [02:01] <timeless> ... i as test XX
# [02:01] <timeless> ... compose a test suite
# [02:01] <timeless> ... to demonstrate
# [02:01] <timeless> ... pieces from various specs
# [02:01] <timeless> ... snippets from various specs
# [02:01] <timeless> ... two aspects
# [02:01] <timeless> ... does a UA support webIDL
# [02:01] <chaals> q+ glenn
# [02:01] * Zakim sees plh, glenn on the speaker queue
# [02:01] <timeless> ... and do blocks in specs conform
# [02:02] * Quits: JaeChung (~JaeChung@public.cloak) ("http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client")
# [02:02] <timeless> ... the test suite has code to test webidl blocks
# [02:02] <timeless> ... there's a webidl harness
# [02:02] <timeless> ... and there's tests to confirm that valid input produces good output
# [02:02] <timeless> ... and to confirm that invalid input produces bad output
# [02:02] <timeless> ... we don't have tests against browsers
# [02:02] <timeless> ... i unfortunately have made as much progress as you
# [02:02] <timeless> ack plh
# [02:02] * Zakim sees glenn on the speaker queue
# [02:03] <timeless> plh: i thought idlharness.js could prove that all the things in the spec are well implemented in UAs
# [02:03] <timeless> heycam: yes
# [02:03] <timeless> plh: the problem w/ that so far
# [02:03] <timeless> ... is that idlharness isn't complete
# [02:03] <timeless> ... darobin wrote an updated parser for WebIDL
# [02:03] <timeless> ... not sure how much changes by heycam affect that
# [02:03] <timeless> ... but we don't have something that takes the output of the parser to generate tests
# [02:03] <timeless> ... as part of the testing effort mentioned in HTML F2F
# [02:04] <timeless> ... we want to develop infrastructure
# [02:04] <timeless> ... we have an item to finish idlharness
# [02:04] <timeless> ... deadline was before end of year
# [02:04] <timeless> heycam: what sort of things does it test currently?
# [02:04] <timeless> plh: idlharness will take some webidl
# [02:04] <timeless> ... and generate testharness.js
# [02:04] <timeless> ... based on it
# [02:04] <timeless> ... in navigation timing test suite
# [02:05] <timeless> ... you'll see idlharness
# [02:05] <timeless> ... it takes the webidl from navigation timing
# [02:05] <timeless> ... and generates js based on that
# [02:05] <smaug> http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/dom/imptests/webapps/DOMCore/tests/approved/test_interfaces.html?force=1 seems to use idlharness.js
# [02:05] <timeless> ... to make sure the assumptions we can make based on the webidl
# [02:05] <timeless> heycam: it can't rely on functionality of particular methods
# [02:05] <timeless> plh: i don't know
# [02:06] <timeless> heycam: what coverage do we get from that idl harness?
# [02:06] <timeless> ... that means we don't have to write explicit tests
# [02:06] <timeless> ... it could generate tests for some things
# [02:06] <timeless> ... but for some functionality
# [02:06] <timeless> ... you'd need to do by hand, based on what the methods/properties do
# [02:06] <timeless> ... to see if they convert arguments correctly
# [02:06] <timeless> darobin: we can't cover everything
# [02:06] <timeless> ... it tests a lot of interesting things
# [02:07] <timeless> ... it catches bugs
# [02:07] <timeless> ... there isn't a single implementation that passes
# [02:07] <timeless> ... it uses the updated parser
# [02:07] <chaals> q?
# [02:07] * Zakim sees glenn on the speaker queue
# [02:07] <timeless> ... i gets up to date web idl
# [02:07] <timeless> ... a few things we haven't implemented support for yet
# [02:07] <arun> Zakim, who is on the phone?
# [02:07] <Zakim> On the phone I see Paypal, Olli_Pettay, Aaron_Colwell, heycam
# [02:07] <timeless> ... some things you can't know w/o reaching inside the implementation
# [02:07] <timeless> ... you can test everything that's surfaced
# [02:07] <timeless> heycam: would you want to use the output of this as the basis of the browser test suite?
# [02:07] <timeless> darobin: yes
# [02:07] <timeless> ack glenn_
# [02:07] * Zakim sees glenn on the speaker queue
# [02:08] <timeless> glenn_: in editing of CSS OM
# [02:08] <timeless> ... i created a preprocessor that
# [02:08] <timeless> ... allows taking webidl definitions of apis
# [02:08] <timeless> ... putting them in separate idl files
# [02:08] <timeless> ... i use darobin 's earlier webidl parser
# [02:08] <timeless> ... which validates them according to that syntax
# [02:08] <timeless> ... and inserts them into an html file
# [02:08] <timeless> ... that creates the analis version of the document
# [02:09] <timeless> ... and for tests of CSS OM, we've written tests that test what's required by the webidl
# [02:09] <timeless> ... two things
# [02:09] <timeless> ... 1. verify validity of webidl used in the spec
# [02:09] <timeless> ... 2. verify implementation of things using it
# [02:09] <timeless> heycam: yes
# [02:10] <timeless> s/analis/Anolis/
# [02:10] <Zakim> -Aaron_Colwell
# [02:10] <timeless> chaals: can't we use the validator as an implementation?
# [02:10] <timeless> plh: that's possible
# [02:10] <timeless> chaals: we need to show that this stuff actually works
# [02:10] <timeless> ... and is widely implemented
# [02:11] <timeless> ... if the group looks at this stuff and says it's implemented all over this place, and it works
# [02:11] <timeless> ... then for some definition, it's considered interoperability.
# [02:11] <timeless> ... open question if we let that go as v1
# [02:11] <darobin> [idlharness.js is here: https://github.com/w3c/testharness.js]
# [02:11] <timeless> ... to get it out the door
# [02:11] <timeless> ... and fix bugs we find later
# [02:11] <timeless> s|[idlharness.js is here: https://github.com/w3c/testharness.js]|-> https://github.com/w3c/testharness.js idlharness.js|
# [02:11] <timeless> ArtB: in terms of validators, don't we have two?
# [02:11] <timeless> ... darobin 's and dom's?
# [02:12] <timeless> sicking: we have our own webidl parser
# [02:12] <timeless> Travis: IE has one too
# [02:12] <timeless> krisk: i concur
# [02:12] <timeless> ArtB: can you look at the exit criteria and see if we've met it with these imeplementations
# [02:12] * Joins: yosuke_ (~yosuke_@public.cloak)
# [02:12] <timeless> plh: two parts
# [02:13] <timeless> ... one is syntax
# [02:13] <timeless> ... one is bindings
# [02:13] <timeless> ... IE+Mozilla can convince "yes we have"
# [02:13] <timeless> ... but you may not convince the Director that you have the ES bindings write
# [02:13] <timeless> s/write/right/
# [02:13] <timeless> Travis: idl harness takes webidl syntax as input
# [02:13] <timeless> ... and the output is testcases
# [02:14] <Zakim> -Olli_Pettay
# [02:14] <timeless> ... does it convert null into "null"
# [02:14] <plh> http://w3c-test.org/webperf/tests/approved/UserTiming/idlharness.html
# [02:14] <darobin> [heycam: here's an example http://w3c-test.org/web-platform-tests/master/XMLHttpRequest/tests/submissions/Ms2ger/interfaces.html]
# [02:14] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [02:15] <smaug> Zakim, [IPcaller] is Olli_Pettay
# [02:15] <Zakim> +Olli_Pettay; got it
# [02:15] <timeless> plh: it generates tests based on webidl
# [02:15] <timeless> ... is it a function
# [02:15] <timeless> sicking: you can't possibly write tests that call when you call X and it expects a string
# [02:16] <timeless> ... that it behaves the same way with "foo", {valueOf:function(){return "foo"}
# [02:16] <timeless> ... those can't be tested automatically
# [02:16] <timeless> plh: you can at least check the signature
# [02:17] <timeless> ArtB: look at Web Storage
# [02:17] <timeless> ... what does Storage.clear() do for a test
# [02:17] * Joins: JaeChung (~JaeChung@public.cloak)
# [02:17] <timeless> sicking: do you ensure that clear("xxxx") behaves the same as clear() ?
# [02:17] <timeless> ... or removeItem("42") behaves the same as removeItem(41+1)
# [02:18] <timeless> plh: we may have to test some manually
# [02:18] <timeless> ... the goal is to prove this construction is properly implemented
# [02:18] <timeless> sicking: if we can for each webidl construct
# [02:18] <timeless> ... two implementation
# [02:18] <timeless> ... that all properties are present
# [02:19] <timeless> ... but we'd have to hand write coercion testing
# [02:19] <timeless> Travis: i think there will be a small change in the testing plan
# [02:19] <timeless> ... the harness can test some pieces
# [02:21] <timeless> heycam: getAttribute make it easy to write some tests
# [02:21] <timeless> ... but you can't automatically generate
# [02:21] <timeless> ... but the right plan is
# [02:21] <timeless> ... identify testable w/ JS bindings
# [02:21] <timeless> ... identify which things idlharness can cover
# [02:21] <timeless> .. and then write the less
# [02:22] <timeless> chaals: and Travis, you'll get it by TPAC?
# [02:22] <timeless> Travis: i'll coordinate w/ darobin and plh
# [02:22] <timeless> ... we'll work on what additional functionality needs to be put into the harness
# [02:22] <timeless> chaals: and then work and ship it
# [02:22] <timeless> Topic: Charter Discussion
# [02:23] <timeless> s/Topic: Charter Discussion//
# [02:23] <timeless> chaals: thanks heycam
# [02:23] <Zakim> -heycam
# [02:23] <timeless> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [02:23] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [02:23] * Quits: abraud (~abraud@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [02:24] <timeless> [ Adjourned until tomorrow ]
# [02:24] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [02:24] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
# [02:24] * Yves zakim, who is here?
# [02:24] * Zakim sees on the phone: Paypal, Olli_Pettay
# [02:24] * smaug is still here
# [02:24] * Zakim sees on irc: JaeChung, yosuke_, sicking, shepazu, lyle, JonathanJ, krijnh, jeffh, abarth, wseltzer, adrianba, alecf, krisk, plh, garykac, Dashiva, arun, EricU, jsbell, Travis,
# [02:24] * Zakim ... acolwell, tlr, Jungkee, yosuke, Bin_Hu, eliot, bryan, darobin, wonsuk
# [02:24] <ArtB> zakim, who's here?
# [02:24] <Zakim> On the phone I see Paypal, Olli_Pettay
# [02:24] <Zakim> On IRC I see JaeChung, yosuke_, sicking, shepazu, lyle, JonathanJ, krijnh, jeffh, abarth, wseltzer, adrianba, alecf, krisk, plh, garykac, Dashiva, arun, EricU, jsbell, Travis,
# [02:24] <Zakim> ... acolwell, tlr, Jungkee, yosuke, Bin_Hu, eliot, bryan, darobin, wonsuk
# [02:25] <Zakim> -Paypal
# [02:25] <smaug> it is only 3:23am
# [02:25] <Zakim> -Olli_Pettay
# [02:25] <Zakim> RWC_WAF(WAF2F)12:00PM has ended
# [02:25] <Zakim> Attendees were Olli_Pettay, Ms2ger, Paypal, Marcos, Aaron_Colwell, heycam
# [02:26] * Quits: yosuke_ (~yosuke_@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [02:26] * Quits: JaeChung (~JaeChung@public.cloak) ("http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client")
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# [17:14] <hallvord_> isn't there a meeting going on? Seems very quiet here..
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# [17:15] <jgraham> hallvord_: I think you are in the wrong timezone?
# [17:16] <hallvord_> hm... too early, for once?
# [17:16] <jgraham> (I think it is like 8am there?)
# [17:19] <hallvord_> you are so right. I'll have time for cooking without distractions, then
# [17:35] <tantek> yes, wait about half an hour :)
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# [17:36] <Ms2ger> Will sicking be on time today?
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# [17:36] <tantek> Ms2ger - I for one and am already running late. ETA 09:45-0700
# [17:37] <Ms2ger> Zakim, list
# [17:37] <Zakim> I see WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM, Team_(comm)15:32Z active
# [17:37] <Zakim> also scheduled at this time are XML_SchemaWG()11:00AM, SW_HCLS(TERM)11:00AM, SW_RDFWG(CHAIRS)11:00AM
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# [17:39] <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, pointer
# [17:39] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-irc#T15-40-10
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# [17:48] * abarsto is now known as ArtB
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# [17:56] <ArtB> RRSAgent, bye
# [17:56] <RRSAgent> I see 17 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-actions.rdf :
# [17:56] <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow work with Chaals on a call for editor help for DOM4 [1]
# [17:56] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-irc#T16-50-51
# [17:56] <RRSAgent> ACTION: travis resolve last bug for DOM P&S and notify Art so a CfC for LC can be started [2]
# [17:56] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-irc#T16-52-25
# [17:56] <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow start a CfC to move Java bindinings for WebIDL to WG Note [3]
# [17:56] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-irc#T17-00-06
# [17:56] <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow ask Vincent about next step for PointerLock (e.g. what needs to be done to go LC) [4]
# [17:56] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-irc#T17-02-00-1
# [17:56] <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow ask Kinuko about status and plans for Quota Mangement API [5]
# [17:56] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-irc#T17-03-03
# [17:56] <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow ask Lachlan if he has some impl data re Selectors API v2 [6]
# [17:56] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-irc#T17-04-04
# [17:56] <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow ask Tina to remove the IE column from the SSE implementation report [7]
# [17:56] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-irc#T17-07-43
# [17:56] <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow start a CfC for FPWD of UI Events (and make sure it has a Bugzilla component) [8]
# [17:56] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-irc#T17-29-26
# [17:56] <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow work with Alex and Chaals re interop data for Web Messaging [9]
# [17:56] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-irc#T17-51-40
# [17:56] <RRSAgent> ACTION: chaals to make a CfC for joint work with sysapps on webapp manifests [10]
# [17:56] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-irc#T18-00-58
# [17:56] <RRSAgent> ACTION: eliot update IDB LC comment tracking document to replace "TBD" with something more descriptive [11]
# [17:56] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-irc#T18-41-35
# [17:56] <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow update Pubstatus of D3E to reflect Gary's participation in Editing and Testing [12]
# [17:56] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-irc#T20-36-25-1
# [17:56] * Joins: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak)
# [17:56] <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow start a CfC to publish FPWD of Custom Elements [13]
# [17:56] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-irc#T20-38-36
# [17:57] <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow start CfC for FPWD of HTML Imports [14]
# [17:57] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-irc#T20-39-58
# [17:57] <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow start CfC to publish new WD of the Web Components Explainer [15]
# [17:57] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-irc#T20-42-13
# [17:57] <RRSAgent> ACTION: smith ask the IME Editors to remove Canvas examples (e.g. images) [16]
# [17:57] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-irc#T22-39-57
# [17:57] <RRSAgent> ACTION: Michael[tm] Smith to take back PFWG feedback to the IME API editor (Kochi) and propose we excise the mentions of DOM-based editor use-case in the use-case document, and the specific mentions of <canvas> in the actual spec [17]
# [17:57] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-irc#T22-43-13
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# [17:57] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/04/26-webapps-irc
# [17:58] <ArtB> Meeting: Web Applications WG F2F Meeting
# [17:58] <ArtB> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/April2013Meeting
# [17:58] <ArtB> Chairs: Art, Charles
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# [17:58] <ArtB> Scribe: Josh_Soref
# [17:58] <ArtB> ScribeNick: timeless
# [17:59] <ArtB> Present: Art_Barstow, Charles_McCathieNevile, Josh_Soref, Robin_Berjon, Yves_Lafon, Ted_Oconnor, Laszlo_Gombos, Tyler_Barton, Adrian_Bateman, Glenn_Adams, Doug_Turner, Bryan_Sullivan
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# [18:00] <Bin_Hu> present+ Bin_Hu
# [18:00] <ArtB> Present+ Bin_Hu
# [18:00] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [18:00] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/26-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
# [18:01] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make log Public
# [18:01] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, ArtB
# [18:01] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [18:01] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/26-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
# [18:01] <abraud> Present+ Arnaud_Braud
# [18:02] <ArtB> Present+ Yosuke_Funahasi
# [18:02] <ArtB> Present+ Jae_Won_Chung
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# [18:03] <ArtB> Present+ Hiroyuki_Aizu
# [18:04] <adrianba> Present+ adrianba
# [18:06] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [18:06] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/26-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
# [18:06] <ArtB> zakim, who's here?
# [18:06] <Zakim> sorry, ArtB, I don't know what conference this is
# [18:06] <Zakim> On IRC I see aizu, Bin_Hu, bryan, abraud, RRSAgent, darobin, adrianba, ArtB, tantek, Zakim, jeffh, hallvord_, smaug, tobie, davidb, Ms2ger, shepazu, krijnh, wseltzer, alecf,
# [18:06] <Zakim> ... Dashiva, EricU, jsbell, tlr, dglazkov, karl, logbot, timeless, gavin
# [18:06] <ArtB> zakim, bye
# [18:06] * Parts: Zakim (zakim@public.cloak) (Zakim)
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# [18:06] <Yves> i
# [18:07] <Yves> trackbot, start telcon
# [18:07] * @trackbot is preparing a teleconference.
# [18:07] <@trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [18:07] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot
# [18:07] <@trackbot> Zakim, this will be DOM3
# [18:07] <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
# [18:07] <@trackbot> Meeting: Web Applications Working Group Teleconference
# [18:07] <@trackbot> Date: 26 April 2013
# [18:07] * Yves rrsagent, bye
# [18:07] <RRSAgent> I see no action items
# [18:07] * Parts: RRSAgent (rrsagent@public.cloak) (RRSAgent)
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# [18:07] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/04/26-webapps-irc
# [18:08] <ArtB> zakim, this will be RWC_WAF
# [18:08] <Zakim> ok, ArtB, I see RWC_WAF(WAF2F)12:00PM already started
# [18:08] * smaug can hear something
# [18:08] <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, code
# [18:08] <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'code', Ms2ger. Try /msg RRSAgent help
# [18:08] <Ms2ger> Zakim, code
# [18:08] <Zakim> I don't understand 'code', Ms2ger
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# [18:09] <ArtB> zakim, what's the code?
# [18:09] <Zakim> the conference code is 92323 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), ArtB
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# [18:09] <Ms2ger> Ta
# [18:09] <lyle> present+ Lyle_Troxell
# [18:09] <Zakim> +??P2
# [18:09] <Ms2ger> Zakim, ??P2 is me
# [18:09] <Zakim> +Ms2ger; got it
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# [18:10] <eliot> present+ eliot_graff
# [18:10] <smaug> Zakim, who is on the call?
# [18:10] <Zakim> On the phone I see [IPcaller], Paypal, Ms2ger
# [18:10] <smaug> Zakim, [IPcaller] is Olli_Pettay
# [18:10] <Zakim> +Olli_Pettay; got it
# [18:10] <smaug> Zakim, nick smaug is Olli_Pettay
# [18:10] <Zakim> ok, smaug, I now associate you with Olli_Pettay
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# [18:10] * Yves zakim, pick a victim
# [18:10] <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Olli_Pettay
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# [18:11] <darobin> Shenzhen
# [18:11] * smaug kicks Zakim
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# [18:11] <lgombos> present+ Laszlo_Gombos
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# [18:11] <ArtB> ACTION: barstow announce the WG will meet during TPAC 2013 in November
# [18:11] * @trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [18:11] * RRSAgent records action 1
# [18:11] <@trackbot> Created ACTION-692 - Announce the WG will meet during TPAC 2013 in November [on Arthur Barstow - due 2013-05-03].
# [18:11] <darobin> ScribeNick: darobin
# [18:11] <darobin> chaals: that was painless
# [18:11] <darobin> .... the chartering stuff
# [18:12] <yosuke> Present+ Yosuke_Funahashi
# [18:12] <darobin> ... what do we need to add or remove
# [18:12] <Zakim> +??P10
# [18:12] <bryan> present+ Bryan_Sullivan
# [18:12] <darobin> ... we have a spec called URL, we asked if people would work on it
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# [18:12] <krisk> present+ krisk
# [18:12] <ArtB> -> http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/Charter Inventory of Charter updates that need to be made or might be made
# [18:12] <Yves> Present+ Yves_Lafon
# [18:12] <darobin> ... Anne is not in WebApps, so can't edit
# [18:12] <darobin> ... no one in WebApps is editing it
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# [18:13] <darobin> ... Anne is working on it outside W3C
# [18:13] * Ms2ger suggests dropping DOM4, DOMP&S, XHR, PE from the charter
# [18:13] <darobin> ... should we keep it in our charter
# [18:13] <Jungkee> Present+ Jungkee_Song
# [18:13] <efullea> present+ Eduardo_Fullea
# [18:13] <hallvord_> Hi Jungkee
# [18:14] <darobin> Robin: if we're just republishing, why not automate it?
# [18:14] <Zakim> -Ms2ger
# [18:14] <darobin> chaals: uh, we actually want a responsible editor
# [18:14] * Ms2ger ArtB, can you ping me when there's something interesting?
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# [18:15] * darobin giggles
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# [18:15] <JonathanJ> Present+ Jonghong_Jeon
# [18:15] <Ms2ger> I note that chaals said "Anne puts his spec in the public domain, so you can just copy it"
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# [18:15] <darobin> ???: how about we could just resolve the dispute over the licensing instead?
# [18:16] <darobin> chaals: we could, but that's outside the scope of this group
# [18:16] <darobin> ... if the AC get a consensus, then the problem goes away
# [18:16] * Joins: Travis (~Travis@public.cloak)
# [18:16] <darobin> ... until that happens, we need to figure out what to do with that spec
# [18:16] <darobin> ... if no one is committing to it, seems pointless to have it in the charter
# [18:17] <Zakim> -??P10
# [18:17] <tobie> Zakim, code?
# [18:17] <Zakim> the conference code is 92323 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), tobie
# [18:17] <darobin> robin: just pointing out that this is pretty fundamental
# [18:18] <darobin> bryan: is this really cut and paste?
# [18:18] <darobin> group: yeah
# [18:18] <darobin> bryan: so why not just do it?
# [18:18] <darobin> chaals: because no one volunteers
# [18:18] * darobin speaker?
# [18:18] <Zakim> + +34.91.432.aaaa
# [18:19] <darobin> ???: the problem is the license, so we should transition to an open license
# [18:19] <darobin> ArtB: do we want to start a CfC to drop URL?
# [18:19] <ArtB> s/???/DougT/
# [18:19] <darobin> chaals: alternative proposal...
# [18:19] <darobin> robin: the group could go on strike until there's a new license
# [18:20] <darobin> chaals: I can take over URL if the group appoints me to it
# [18:20] <ArtB> ACTION: charles to be the default Editor of URL spec
# [18:20] * RRSAgent records action 2
# [18:20] * @trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [18:20] <@trackbot> Created ACTION-693 - Be the default Editor of URL spec [on Charles McCathie Nevile - due 2013-05-03].
# [18:20] <tobie> zakim, agenda?
# [18:20] <Zakim> I see nothing on the agenda
# [18:20] <darobin> chaals: some work is scoped but not listed explicitly, e.g. Streams
# [18:21] <smaug> tobie: http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/April2013Meeting
# [18:21] <ArtB> -> http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/Charter pending Charter updates
# [18:21] <darobin> chaals: I plan to draft a new charter, and list deliverables more precisely
# [18:21] <adrianba> q+
# [18:21] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [18:21] <darobin> ... expect to see a proposal
# [18:21] <ArtB> ACTION: charles prepare a Draft charter update for the WG to review
# [18:21] * RRSAgent records action 3
# [18:21] * @trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [18:21] <@trackbot> Created ACTION-694 - Prepare a Draft charter update for the WG to review [on Charles McCathie Nevile - due 2013-05-03].
# [18:21] <darobin> ... and get the AC to support it
# [18:22] <darobin> ack adrianba
# [18:22] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:22] <darobin> adrianba: are we planning to add application manifest?
# [18:22] <darobin> chaals: we are planning to keep it
# [18:22] * Quits: JonathanJ (~JonathanJ@public.cloak) ("http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client")
# [18:22] * Joins: JonathanJ (~JonathanJ@public.cloak)
# [18:22] <hallvord_> the strike idea was interesting ;-)
# [18:23] * darobin hallvord_: all it takes is the editors :)
# [18:23] <Ms2ger> And the editors that edit the majority of webapps specs have already stopped working through W3C
# [18:23] <darobin> adrianba: I think it's different from a packaging proposal
# [18:24] <darobin> chaals: if you look through that document, it has all of it, and we're taking a subset
# [18:24] <darobin> ArtB: but we can be more explicit
# [18:24] <darobin> chaals: the DOM can go there as "we'll do something"
# [18:25] <hallvord_> web spec proletariat's unacceptable working conditions? #firstworldproblems - sort of
# [18:25] * plh notes for himself: no links to external proposals in a charter. make a copy instead.
# [18:25] <darobin> chaals: push Push out of the charter
# [18:25] <hallvord_> (to be clear, I think the licencing stuff SHOULD be resolved and expect it to happen eventually)
# [18:25] <darobin> chaals: I believe support has increased
# [18:25] <bryan> q+
# [18:25] * Zakim sees bryan on the speaker queue
# [18:26] <darobin> ... notably Mozilla who weren't interested are now working on it
# [18:26] <darobin> [scribe notes "for a change"]
# [18:26] * Quits: Travis (~Travis@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [18:26] <darobin> bryan: in the geological time scale of webapps, this was brought here seconds ago
# [18:26] * Quits: wonsuk (~wonsuk@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [18:26] * Joins: wonsuk (~wonsuk@public.cloak)
# [18:27] <ArtB> Present+ Mike_Smith, Arun_Ranganathan
# [18:27] <wonsuk> Present+ Wonsuk_Lee
# [18:27] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [18:27] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/26-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
# [18:27] <darobin> bryan: SysApps may be a place to develop it, but I woudl hesitate to move something out just because there's controversy
# [18:27] <darobin> chaals: no
# [18:27] <darobin> ... there has been suggestion to push it out
# [18:27] <darobin> ... there has been a PAG
# [18:28] <darobin> s/... there has been a PAG//
# [18:28] <darobin> ... there has been a PAG
# [18:28] * Ms2ger heh
# [18:28] * Joins: jsbell_ (~jsbell@public.cloak)
# [18:28] <ArtB> -> http://www.w3.org/2004/01/pp-impl/42538/status#current-disclosures exclusions for Push API
# [18:28] <darobin> chaals: Yandex supports keeping push in
# [18:29] <darobin> ... any other opinion? Bryan wants it in
# [18:29] <darobin> eduardo: yes, we want it in
# [18:29] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [18:29] <abraud> q+
# [18:29] * Zakim sees bryan, abraud on the speaker queue
# [18:29] <darobin> Doug: it needs to be in this WG
# [18:29] <bryan> q-
# [18:29] * Zakim sees abraud on the speaker queue
# [18:29] <timeless> s/Doug/dougt/
# [18:29] <darobin> s/???/Doug/g
# [18:30] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@public.cloak)
# [18:30] <timeless> s/Doug:/dougt:/
# [18:30] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [18:30] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/26-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [18:30] <darobin> chaals: I don't see it as value to move the PAG around
# [18:30] <MikeSmith> q?
# [18:30] * Zakim sees abraud on the speaker queue
# [18:30] <abraud> ack abraud
# [18:30] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:30] <darobin> arnaud: I also support keeping it in
# [18:30] <MikeSmith> Present+ MikeSmith!
# [18:30] <timeless> s/DougT:/dougt:/
# [18:30] <darobin> chaals: the whole point of a PAG is you don't have to stop the work
# [18:30] <hober> present+ hober
# [18:31] <darobin> dougt: I think we need to get a lawyer to go through this, we can provide prior art
# [18:31] <darobin> chaals: yes, the PAG does that, we continue on the tech work
# [18:31] <darobin> [scribe made it to w3cmemes http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/image/48935613505]
# [18:31] <darobin> chaals: eduardo, do you want to do push api tech stuff now?
# [18:32] <MikeSmith> q+ to ask about NavigationController and charter
# [18:32] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [18:32] <MikeSmith> q?
# [18:32] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [18:32] * Quits: jeffh (~d871a880@public.cloak) ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client")
# [18:33] <darobin> eduardo: the goal of this spec is to provide an API for apps to register for push notifications
# [18:33] * darobin Ms2ger: we're back on technical stuff
# [18:33] <darobin> ... you can see the API to register, the UA sets up a push notification channel
# [18:33] <ArtB> -> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/push/raw-file/default/index.html Push API ED
# [18:33] * Joins: dougt (~dougt@public.cloak)
# [18:33] <Zakim> +??P7
# [18:33] <darobin> ... the server can then deliver push notifications
# [18:34] <Ms2ger> Zakim, ??P7 is me
# [18:34] <Zakim> +Ms2ger; got it
# [18:34] <darobin> ... details of the API
# [18:34] <darobin> ... the push manager interface
# [18:34] * timeless wonders why the example is doubly nested in class=example
# [18:34] <darobin> ... exposed on Navigattor
# [18:34] <darobin> ... a method to register
# [18:34] <darobin> ... registration is now simpler, no params
# [18:34] <darobin> ... returns a DOMRequest
# [18:35] <darobin> ... unregister() from specific endpoint
# [18:35] * timeless DOMRequest will presumably become DOMFuture ??
# [18:35] * chaals can come back to charter MikeSmith, but calling out navigationController/AppCache2/NewAppCache/AppCacheTwo(splitters!) are one of the clarifications I had assumed we would be making
# [18:35] * darobin suggest that be said on the record
# [18:35] <darobin> ... list registrations
# [18:35] * chaals will, if Mike is happy with that instead of talking about it out loud
# [18:36] <darobin> ... Push endpoint is a URL where the app server can send notifications to be delivered to the application
# [18:36] <darobin> ... list of server protocols that can be used to send notifications to the push server
# [18:36] <darobin> ... discover which are supported
# [18:36] * plh notes that Mike is happy listening to his music
# [18:37] * darobin duum dum dum dum
# [18:37] * Joins: arun (~arun@public.cloak)
# [18:37] <darobin> ... message interface, represents a system message
# [18:37] <darobin> ... used to inform the application when a notification is received
# [18:37] * Yves no, mike is listening to the telco to ensure proper sound quality for remotees
# [18:38] <MikeSmith> hah
# [18:38] <darobin> ... this interface has two attributes
# [18:38] <timeless> s/hah//
# [18:38] <MikeSmith> the noise from that speaker is really annoying me
# [18:38] * timeless please do not pollute the logs
# [18:38] <darobin> ... allows app to map to specific push registration
# [18:38] <timeless> s/the noise from that speaker is really annoying me//
# [18:38] * chaals too
# [18:38] * timeless s/too/+1/ ? :)
# [18:38] * hober reminds Mike to emote
# [18:38] <darobin> ... the version marks the latest version of the content that is available
# [18:39] * chaals MikeSmith you happy to just have me write in the record that we have the appcache etc stuff in the charter (see above)?
# [18:39] <MikeSmith> so unless you guys prefer that is gets to the point where I get up and smash that speaker to shit with a baseball bat, you should be happy I'm listening to my music instead
# [18:39] <darobin> ... the application needs to fetch from the corresponding application sever
# [18:39] <timeless> s/so unless you guys prefer that is gets to the point where I get up and smash that speaker to shit with a baseball bat, you should be happy I'm listening to my music instead//
# [18:39] <darobin> ... the PushRegisterMessage interface
# [18:39] * timeless is not happy to be <strike>ing messages from MikeSmith
# [18:39] <darobin> ... represents additional system message
# [18:39] <darobin> ... signals application that the notificaiton is now invalid and it needs to re-register
# [18:39] <darobin> .... last section
# [18:40] <darobin> ... system messages, describes the names of the system messages and the interfaces to use for them
# [18:40] <darobin> ... steps that must be followed when a notificaiton is received
# [18:40] * timeless -> plh "not i"
# [18:41] <darobin> ... clarifications?
# [18:41] * Joins: jeffh (~d871a880@public.cloak)
# [18:41] * timeless is it normal to use `-`'s in event names??
# [18:41] <chaals> q+
# [18:41] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, chaals on the speaker queue
# [18:41] * timeless oh, they're using system messages
# [18:41] <chaals> ack mi
# [18:41] <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to ask about NavigationController and charter
# [18:41] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
# [18:41] <MikeSmith> chaals, the point I wanted to make is that the scope of NavigationController is significantly larger than just appcache, so I don't think we can just assume/declare that NavigationController is in scope. Because I think it's not, as far as the current charter and the move-over-from-HTML clause.
# [18:41] <darobin> eduardo: this is part of FirefoxOS, developed by Mozilla and Telefonica
# [18:42] * timeless is SystemMessage a WebApps spec ?
# [18:42] <darobin> chaals: it seems clear to me
# [18:42] <darobin> dougt: I have two or three things about this
# [18:42] * Joins: TylerB (~TylerB@public.cloak)
# [18:42] <darobin> ... for our phone, we use system messages and manifests and all
# [18:42] * chaals will come back to charter for nav controller
# [18:42] <darobin> ... there's internal debate about how we deliver a message to an application that's not active, the window is gone
# [18:42] <darobin> ... I don't think we have general agreement on that
# [18:43] <darobin> ... system messages or manifest might work
# [18:43] <darobin> ... but I'm not sure that that's the best for the web (some will disagree)
# [18:43] <darobin> ... so we're looking for a solution
# [18:43] <darobin> ... one option is a Function Future, similar to a future
# [18:43] * plh will try to lower the volume of the speaker during the break
# [18:43] * timeless adrianba i can't figure out how to use your coupon :)
# [18:43] <darobin> ... but the JS engine stores is, and you can ask that to give you back a function later that you can execute
# [18:44] * plh and plug Mike's music player in it
# [18:44] * timeless the phone people said i had to use the web site, and the web site didn't seem to have a slot for it :(
# [18:44] <darobin> ... but the problem is, when a webapp is no longer running, how do you deliver a message to it?
# [18:44] <timeless> s/a future/a DOMFuture/
# [18:44] * chaals notes that we haven't yet received a request to work on navController here, and I would like to have that clear before we take it on. (Just sayin', Googlers...)
# [18:44] <darobin> ... this spec is tighttly coupled to system messages, which may or may not be the way to do it
# [18:44] <darobin> s/a DOMFuture/a future/
# [18:45] * timeless really? that's pretty confusing
# [18:45] * Quits: tantek (~tpod@public.cloak) ("Colloquy for iPod touch - http://colloquy.mobi")
# [18:45] <darobin> ... we keep things simple, there's no need to sync data
# [18:45] * Quits: tobie (tobie@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [18:45] * Joins: abarth (~uid5294@public.cloak)
# [18:45] <darobin> ... we didn't just want to use the notification tray
# [18:45] <darobin> ... we want to build an API that enabled more than that, including sync services
# [18:46] <darobin> ... the app might do a bunch of things before putting up a notification (or not)
# [18:46] <darobin> ... it's very simple and basic so that people can build on top of it
# [18:46] <darobin> ... no data, low level signalling service
# [18:46] * Joins: tobie (tobie@public.cloak)
# [18:46] <darobin> ... the protocol based on something called Tolofi (?)
# [18:46] <darobin> ... has a bunch of pros
# [18:46] <darobin> ... if the push server goes away
# [18:47] <darobin> ... you can bring it back up with no data, and the protocol will self repair
# [18:47] <bryan> q+
# [18:47] * Zakim sees chaals, bryan on the speaker queue
# [18:47] <efullea> s/Tolofi (?)/Thialfi/
# [18:47] <darobin> ... if you try to do the same, you'll probably come to the same conclusion
# [18:47] <chaals> q-
# [18:47] * Zakim sees bryan on the speaker queue
# [18:48] <lyle> http://research.google.com/pubs/pub37474.html
# [18:48] <darobin> sicking: the whole problem to sending messages to something that may not be running is something we're facing in the Notification API as well
# [18:48] <darobin> ... if the message is clicked and the app has gone away, we don't know what to do
# [18:48] <darobin> ... I think we can solve this without relying on manifest
# [18:48] <darobin> [scribe hints that Intents/Activities are a solution avenue here]
# [18:48] * timeless -> TylerB http://pastebin.mozilla.org/2350289 -- that seems to be the relevant event
# [18:48] <darobin> bryan: just a few comments
# [18:49] <darobin> ... simplification to deliver only signal, I understand the intent
# [18:49] <darobin> ... that's fine, better than nothing
# [18:49] * Joins: tantek (~tpod@public.cloak)
# [18:49] <darobin> ... we do have more than ten years of experience in delivering actual payloads to apps
# [18:49] <darobin> ... and we've enabled lots of infrastructure that you enjoy everyday
# [18:50] <darobin> ... so it is safe and we've been doing it for many years
# [18:50] * chaals notes that this is wandering close to the line between technical comment and sales pitch
# [18:50] <darobin> ... but I agree that if you signal the app and let it decide, it's secure
# [18:50] * timeless but sales pitches are fun :)
# [18:50] <darobin> ... and in fact it is the number one approach we've been using all these years
# [18:50] <darobin> ... so we're good with that
# [18:51] <darobin> ... comments might be resolved?
# [18:51] <darobin> ... push server design considerations (eg robustness, scalability)
# [18:51] <darobin> ... do we need some content in the spec? we could provide something
# [18:51] <chaals> q+
# [18:51] * Zakim sees bryan, chaals on the speaker queue
# [18:51] <darobin> ... second thing had to do with security considerations
# [18:51] <darobin> ... probably addressed by removing the payload
# [18:51] <darobin> ack bryan
# [18:51] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
# [18:51] <darobin> ack chaals
# [18:51] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:52] <darobin> chaals: yes, design considerations are useful to put in spec so that people udnersntad what you're doing
# [18:52] <chaals> ack me
# [18:52] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:52] <darobin> sicking: first question was about privacy being solved by not having messages
# [18:52] <darobin> ... it certainly helps a lot
# [18:52] <darobin> ... I don't have a lot of experience as for the server considerations
# [18:53] <darobin> ... the concerns we had about scalability with the previous proposal is something we attempted to address
# [18:53] <darobin> ... by allowing the server to drop information and autorepair
# [18:53] <darobin> ... I'm not good enough at server development to say that this aspect is solved
# [18:53] <darobin> ... but we feel a lot more comfortable with this
# [18:53] <darobin> bryan: eliminating the payload certainly solves a lot of scability and sync issues
# [18:53] <chaals> q+ doug
# [18:53] * Zakim sees doug on the speaker queue
# [18:54] <darobin> ... to issues a request and get something you need, but it's still unclear what the actual process is
# [18:54] <darobin> ... do we want to include example of how it works out on the wire?
# [18:54] <sicking> q+
# [18:54] * Zakim sees doug, sicking on the speaker queue
# [18:54] <chaals> ack do
# [18:54] <darobin> dougt: we actually need to do that
# [18:54] * Zakim sees sicking on the speaker queue
# [18:54] <darobin> ack dougt
# [18:54] * Zakim sees sicking on the speaker queue
# [18:54] * Ms2ger notes 5 minutes left on this :)
# [18:55] <darobin> ... there's this idea that the UA will hand a URL to the app that'll send it to the server
# [18:55] * Joins: Marcos (~Marcos@public.cloak)
# [18:55] <darobin> ... so the app server now has a URL that it uses to contact the push server
# [18:55] * chaals oooh! ASCII art... speccin' like it's 1979!
# [18:55] <darobin> ... so when the push happens we need to define the protocal
# [18:55] <darobin> ... we want a default protocol that all can use
# [18:55] <darobin> ... so the app server needs a well known way to talk to the push server
# [18:56] <darobin> ... I want to spec out the wire protocol, and that will be the normative way
# [18:56] <darobin> ... if we don't do that, there will be plenty of different protocols
# [18:56] <efullea> q+
# [18:56] * Zakim sees sicking, efullea on the speaker queue
# [18:56] <darobin> ... and we'll need complex code to handle multiple protocols
# [18:56] <darobin> ... so we want a default, and people can use other stuff so long as they support that
# [18:56] * chaals was thinking the same as Ms2ger
# [18:57] <darobin> bryan: many legs to such systems
# [18:57] * Ms2ger chaals, you can enforce that, I can't ;)
# [18:57] <darobin> ... leg to leg interop standards, there's app server to push server, but also push server to push client
# [18:57] <darobin> ... do we want only the first leg to lef?
# [18:57] <darobin> dougt: I don't think we need the latter leg
# [18:58] <darobin> Topic: testing
# [18:58] <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
# [18:59] <ArtB> zakim, who's here?
# [18:59] <Zakim> On the phone I see Olli_Pettay, Paypal, +34.91.432.aaaa, Ms2ger
# [18:59] <Zakim> On IRC I see Marcos, tantek, tobie, abarth, TylerB, jeffh, arun, dougt, sicking, jsbell_, wonsuk, JonathanJ, plh, bhill2_, Jungkee, garykac, krisk, yosuke, lgombos, efullea, eliot,
# [18:59] <Zakim> ... lyle, chaals, RRSAgent, Zakim, aizu, Bin_Hu, bryan, abraud, darobin
# [18:59] * jgraham feels his ears prick up
# [18:59] * Ms2ger pokes tobie
# [18:59] * ArtB Testing in ~ 5mins ...
# [18:59] * Ms2ger heard 2
# [19:00] * Joins: virginie_ (~virginie@public.cloak)
# [19:00] * Ms2ger heard 1, 2, 1, 2
# [19:00] * hober 2 minutes in f2f time is at least 5 minutes on an ordinary clock
# [19:01] * Ms2ger suggests now would be the time to upload some memes
# [19:01] <Zakim> - +34.91.432.aaaa
# [19:01] * Quits: efullea (~efullea@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [19:02] * jgraham suggests not having f2fs in relatavistically moving meeting rooms
# [19:02] <sicking> q-
# [19:02] * Zakim sees efullea on the speaker queue
# [19:02] * Quits: dougt (~dougt@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [19:02] * Joins: danielfilho|w (~danielfilho@public.cloak)
# [19:02] <Ms2ger> Zakim, ack efullea
# [19:02] <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
# [19:03] * Joins: danielfi_ (~danielfilho@public.cloak)
# [19:03] * Quits: danielfilho|w (~danielfilho@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [19:04] <Ms2ger> q+ to suggest moving all the documentation spread over a dozen W3C wikis into the repo instead
# [19:04] * Zakim sees Ms2ger on the speaker queue
# [19:05] <jgraham> Is there any disagreement that's a good idea?
# [19:05] <Zakim> +LiamM
# [19:06] <tobie> Zakim, code
# [19:06] <Zakim> I don't understand 'code', tobie
# [19:06] <Ms2ger> Zakim, code?
# [19:06] <Zakim> the conference code is 92323 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), Ms2ger
# [19:06] <Zakim> -LiamM
# [19:06] <Ms2ger> jgraham, there's a pointer to some webapps wiki on the agenda
# [19:07] <krisk> http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/April2013Meeting
# [19:07] <Zakim> +LiamM
# [19:07] <ArtB> zakim, who's on the phone?
# [19:07] <Zakim> On the phone I see Olli_Pettay, Paypal, Ms2ger, LiamM
# [19:07] <jgraham> Yes, so there is
# [19:08] <jgraham> We should kill the wikis entirely and put the site in git, like everything else
# [19:08] * Quits: tantek (~tpod@public.cloak) ("Colloquy for iPod touch - http://colloquy.mobi")
# [19:08] * Quits: yosuke (~yosuke@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [19:08] * Ms2ger wonders if tobie is LiamM
# [19:08] <timeless> topic: Move to Github
# [19:08] <timeless> scribe: Josh_Soref
# [19:08] <timeless> scribenick: timeless
# [19:09] <timeless> Zakim, who is on the call?
# [19:09] <Zakim> On the phone I see Olli_Pettay, Paypal, Ms2ger, LiamM
# [19:09] <Ms2ger> Zakim, LiamM is tobie
# [19:09] <Zakim> +tobie; got it
# [19:09] * timeless thanks Ms2ger
# [19:09] <timeless> [ ArtB introduces the room to tobie ]
# [19:09] * Ms2ger Any from Opera?
# [19:09] * chaals notes we're not that pretty...
# [19:09] * jgraham isn't on the phone
# [19:09] * jgraham is on irc though
# [19:09] * chaals expected OdinHo on the phone (no Operatives physically present)
# [19:09] <timeless> [ Microsoft, Google, Apple, Toshiba, Samsung ]
# [19:10] * chaals thinks about enforcing Ms2ger thinking the same thing as me...
# [19:10] <timeless> ArtB: tobie is a visiting fellow at W3C, sponsored by Facebook
# [19:10] * Quits: bhill2_ (~bhill2@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [19:10] * Ms2ger plh is working on tests?
# [19:10] <timeless> ... a month ago, we started moving our tests from Mercurial to GitHub
# [19:10] <timeless> ... html has done that, and other groups are doing it as well
# [19:10] <timeless> ... i'm interested in getting an update on where we are
# [19:11] <timeless> tobie: hello everyone
# [19:11] <timeless> ... thanks for making time for testing
# [19:11] <timeless> ... 3 things
# [19:11] <timeless> ... to talk about
# [19:11] <timeless> ... one is on the actual move to github of webapps test suite
# [19:11] <timeless> ... i wasn't directly involved, but afaik, everything has moved to github and is doing fine
# [19:11] * Ms2ger wha?
# [19:11] <timeless> ... maybe Ms2ger has more input
# [19:11] <timeless> ... or darobin
# [19:11] * Quits: danielfi_ (~danielfilho@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [19:11] <timeless> ... the other part of interest
# [19:11] <timeless> ... we have this very big testing effort
# [19:12] <timeless> ... we started planning and budgetting
# [19:12] <timeless> ... but we're waiting for funding to start
# [19:12] <timeless> ... that effort consists of building a good infrastructure to do testing at w3c
# [19:12] <timeless> ... and also to handle the backlog of testing
# [19:12] <timeless> ... and also to do a better job of keeping up to date in testing
# [19:12] <timeless> ... making testing, things to help build interoperable implementations
# [19:12] <timeless> ... rather than just moving specs along REC track
# [19:13] <timeless> ... do more testing that currently
# [19:13] <timeless> ... don't know if you have specific questions
# [19:13] * Joins: tantek (~tpod@public.cloak)
# [19:13] <Ms2ger> Fully support the comment about REC track
# [19:13] <timeless> ... on planned infrastrucutre
# [19:13] <timeless> s/utr/tur/
# [19:13] <timeless> ... good to have questions
# [19:13] <timeless> ArtB: anyone have questions for tobie ?
# [19:13] <timeless> [ Silence ]
# [19:13] <timeless> ArtB: odinho had put together a document describing the overall workflow
# [19:14] <tobie> q+ about doc
# [19:14] * Zakim sees Ms2ger, about, doc on the speaker queue
# [19:14] <timeless> ... that probably needs to be fleshed out w/ webapps specific information
# [19:14] * Ms2ger Zakim ack about
# [19:14] <timeless> ... Rebecca from TestTheWebForward has put together a document on how contributors can help
# [19:14] * Ms2ger Zakim, ack about
# [19:14] * Zakim sees Ms2ger, doc on the speaker queue
# [19:14] * Ms2ger Zakim, ack doc
# [19:14] * Zakim sees Ms2ger on the speaker queue
# [19:14] * Ms2ger Zakim, q+ tobie to talk about doc
# [19:14] * Joins: yosuke (~yosuke@public.cloak)
# [19:14] * Zakim sees Ms2ger, tobie on the speaker queue
# [19:14] <timeless> ... --
# [19:14] <timeless> ... a thing that wasn't clear to me was how we handle reviews
# [19:15] <jgraham> I hope there isn't "WebApps-specific" information; it should be the same for all web-platform WGs
# [19:15] <timeless> ... we're organized a bit differently than the html wg
# [19:15] <timeless> ... we have test facilitators
# [19:15] <timeless> ... krisk is the manager of the html wg test suite
# [19:15] <timeless> ... but we have 10 or 12 volunteers for specific test suites
# [19:15] <timeless> ... a thing we're potentially missing here
# [19:15] <timeless> .... how does a group of people who care about testing get notified when a submission gets made
# [19:15] <timeless> ... if i'm implementing WebSocket
# [19:16] * plh will get the webperf guys to switch to the github repo one of those days
# [19:16] <timeless> ... maybe i want a notification if a pull request on WebSocket gets made
# [19:16] <Marcos> Zakim: passcode?
# [19:16] <timeless> ... or maybe i want a notification for all test suites
# [19:16] <Marcos> Zakim, passcode?
# [19:16] <Zakim> the conference code is 92323 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), Marcos
# [19:16] <timeless> ... can someone explain how this happens/can be managed?
# [19:16] * jgraham notes that critic solves the notification problem :p
# [19:16] <Ms2ger> You can list yourself as a reviewer for specific dirs in critic, and then you'll get email about PRs for those dirs
# [19:16] * timeless notes you'll easily drown
# [19:17] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [19:17] <timeless> tobie: jgraham notes the system he's promoting solves this problem
# [19:17] <timeless> ... we don't have that capability with github today
# [19:17] <jgraham> GitHub doesn't have any way to handle this as far as I know
# [19:17] <Ms2ger> He isn't
# [19:17] <timeless> s/He isn't//
# [19:17] <timeless> ArtB: jgraham are you on the call?
# [19:17] <timeless> tobie: he isn't
# [19:17] <timeless> tobie: whether or not we have the right tool for the job
# [19:18] <timeless> ... during transition
# [19:18] <jgraham> We either need to roll our own, or use something pre-existing. We have critic set up and it solves this as well as several other problems. I sent an email to public-webapps the other day
# [19:18] <timeless> ... you might be best listening to everything
# [19:18] <timeless> ... and use personal rules
# [19:18] <timeless> ... maybe jgraham can set rules using Critic
# [19:18] * Ms2ger critique?
# [19:18] <darobin> q?
# [19:18] * Zakim sees Ms2ger, tobie on the speaker queue
# [19:18] * timeless jgraham pointer?
# [19:18] <Ms2ger> http://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/
# [19:18] <timeless> ArtB: we recorded 7 or 8 actions for darobin, who just re-entered the room
# [19:19] <timeless> chaals: Critic is a tool Opera developed for code review
# [19:19] <jgraham> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2013AprJun/0364.html
# [19:19] <timeless> ArtB: what's html wg going to do?
# [19:19] <Ms2ger> Does the HTMLWG do reviews?
# [19:19] * timeless no
# [19:19] <timeless> ... i'd rather use something that's well tested
# [19:19] <timeless> darobin: we don't have hard and fast rules
# [19:19] <timeless> ... reviewing are done w/ whatever the reviewer is comfortable
# [19:20] <timeless> ArtB: is the github review process a PITA?
# [19:20] <timeless> darobin: i find it ok
# [19:20] <timeless> ... in general, if the review is simple, they do it in github
# [19:20] <timeless> ... for more advanced reviewing, they use critic
# [19:20] <timeless> ... both are available
# [19:20] <timeless> ... you can use one or the other on a per-pull-request basis
# [19:21] <timeless> ArtB: do we give whomever submits the request?
# [19:21] <timeless> darobin: i'm letting the reviewer pick what they're most comfortable w/
# [19:21] <Ms2ger> Given the general lack of reviewers, I'd support letting the reviewer pick
# [19:21] <timeless> ... if we hit issues w/ the tool affecting the submitter, we can cross that bridge then
# [19:21] <krisk> here is an example of a pull request using github https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/77
# [19:21] <timeless> ... we're seeing more reviews now
# [19:21] * Marcos totally agrees
# [19:21] <timeless> ... probably still things to iron out
# [19:21] <timeless> ... but it's improving
# [19:21] <timeless> ArtB: i agree, it's better now
# [19:21] <JonathanJ> rrsagent, draft minutes
# [19:21] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/26-webapps-minutes.html JonathanJ
# [19:21] <hallvord_> I note that Critic is well tested inside Opera :)
# [19:21] <timeless> ... excellent progress
# [19:22] <timeless> ... i'll look at what odinho wrote
# [19:22] <jgraham> I think common sense works. If you know that the contributor is new it is better to pick GitHub unless there is an overwhelming reason not to. For frequent contributers and difficult reviews it just isn't good enough
# [19:23] <chaals> q+
# [19:23] * Zakim sees Ms2ger, tobie, chaals on the speaker queue
# [19:23] <jgraham> (yeah we have used it for tens of thousands of reviews inside Opera)
# [19:23] <timeless> ... does anyone object to this model?
# [19:23] <timeless> tobie: i like what jgraham is saying on irc
# [19:23] <timeless> ... let the reviewers figure it out
# [19:23] <timeless> chaals: we have critic running inside Yandex, it seems reasonable
# [19:23] <timeless> ack Ms2ger
# [19:23] <Zakim> Ms2ger, you wanted to suggest moving all the documentation spread over a dozen W3C wikis into the repo instead
# [19:23] * Zakim sees tobie, chaals on the speaker queue
# [19:23] <Ms2ger> That ^
# [19:24] <timeless> chaals: thanks for volunteering to do that
# [19:24] <Ms2ger> Alright, alright
# [19:24] <timeless> tobie: that's a plan
# [19:24] <timeless> ... there has been
# [19:24] * odinho i iz summoned
# [19:24] <timeless> ... one person contributed a lot of documentation to the html test efforts
# [19:24] <timeless> ... i'm in the process of ...
# [19:24] <ArtB> ACTION: barstow work with Tobie, Robin, Ms2ger, Odin, etc. to make sure WebApps' testing workflow is well documented and kept on GitHub
# [19:24] * @trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [19:24] * RRSAgent records action 4
# [19:24] <@trackbot> Created ACTION-695 - Work with Tobie, Robin, Ms2ger, Odin, etc. to make sure WebApps' testing workflow is well documented and kept on GitHub [on Arthur Barstow - due 2013-05-03].
# [19:24] <timeless> ... XXX
# [19:24] <timeless> ... and there are wikis pointing all over the place
# [19:25] <timeless> ... i'm going to have them redirect to that canonical documentation
# [19:25] <chaals> s/XXX/collecting up the documetation/
# [19:25] <timeless> ArtB: sounds good to me
# [19:25] <Ms2ger> s/documetation/documentation/
# [19:25] <timeless> ... goal is to have as much generic documentation as we can
# [19:25] <timeless> ... and only have one offs if we absolutely need them
# [19:25] <timeless> ... krisk, darobin and I ...
# [19:25] <chaals> s/up the documentation/up the documentation and putting it into one place/
# [19:25] <timeless> ... talked about within webapps's test suite
# [19:26] <timeless> ... i don't think we've done CR branching
# [19:26] <timeless> ... we've had some suites used to exit CR
# [19:26] <krisk> q+
# [19:26] * Zakim sees tobie, chaals, krisk on the speaker queue
# [19:26] <timeless> ... we should probably branch
# [19:26] <timeless> ... Web Storage, and Selectors API v1
# [19:26] <timeless> darobin: yes
# [19:26] <tobie> q+ about doc
# [19:26] * Zakim sees tobie, chaals, krisk, about, doc on the speaker queue
# [19:26] <timeless> ArtB: will the test facilitator do that work?
# [19:26] <timeless> darobin: it's a single commandline
# [19:26] <tobie> http://www.w3.org/wiki/Testing/Resource_Center_TF/Documentation
# [19:26] <Ms2ger> I hope by "branching" we mean "subsetting"
# [19:26] <chaals> q-
# [19:26] * Zakim sees tobie, krisk, about, doc on the speaker queue
# [19:27] <ArtB> ACTION: create CR branch for Web Storage and Selectors API v1 test suites
# [19:27] * RRSAgent records action 5
# [19:27] * @trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [19:27] <@trackbot> Error finding 'create'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/users>.
# [19:27] <timeless> ack tobie
# [19:27] <Zakim> tobie, you wanted to talk about doc
# [19:27] * Zakim sees krisk, about, doc on the speaker queue
# [19:27] <darobin> [ Ms2ger: yes]
# [19:27] <tobie> http://www.w3.org/wiki/Testing/Resource_Center_TF/Existing_Documentation
# [19:27] <chaals> q- about doc
# [19:27] * Zakim sees krisk on the speaker queue
# [19:27] <timeless> tobie: i dumped two links
# [19:27] <timeless> ... one is documentation of testing efforts
# [19:27] <timeless> ... and one is a list of scattered documents
# [19:27] <timeless> ... if you know of other pages, please add links to the second wiki
# [19:27] <timeless> ack k
# [19:27] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:27] * darobin Ms2ger: for most of these documents CR === master anyway, so it's just a matter of clearly flagging it (I don't care either way, but since it's so cheap I don't mind)
# [19:28] <timeless> krisk: i want to discuss about which things end up in CR branch
# [19:28] <timeless> s/which/when/
# [19:28] <timeless> ... we put things into CR branch and expect them to run test
# [19:28] * Joins: tantek_ (~tantek_@public.cloak)
# [19:28] <timeless> ... in the past, we used approved folder
# [19:28] <timeless> ArtB: also WebSockets
# [19:28] <timeless> ... you think we should create the branch before interop testing begins?
# [19:28] * Quits: tantek (~tpod@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [19:28] <timeless> krisk: sure
# [19:28] * Ms2ger darobin, I'm sure you're aware I don't care about CR stuff except when its tests are wrong per the actual spec
# [19:29] <tobie> q+ on CR branch
# [19:29] * Zakim sees tobie on the speaker queue
# [19:29] <ArtB> ACTION: kris create the CR branch for Web Messaging and Web Sockets test suites
# [19:29] * RRSAgent records action 6
# [19:29] * @trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [19:29] <@trackbot> Created ACTION-696 - Create the CR branch for Web Messaging and Web Sockets test suites [on Kris Krueger - due 2013-05-03].
# [19:29] <timeless> ack tobie
# [19:29] <Zakim> tobie, you wanted to comment on CR branch
# [19:29] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:29] <timeless> tobie: it'd be good if the plan for this was documented somewhere
# [19:29] <krisk> q+
# [19:29] * Zakim sees krisk on the speaker queue
# [19:29] <timeless> ... i'd like to see it documented, also for my own personal reading
# [19:29] <timeless> ack krisk
# [19:29] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:30] * Ms2ger krisk: since you know, please write it down too :)
# [19:30] <timeless> krisk: the CR branch is an indication that the specification is more mature
# [19:30] <timeless> ... and the tests should be more mature
# [19:30] <timeless> ... that's the spirit of CR v. Master
# [19:30] <timeless> tobie: how do these things go forward?
# [19:30] <timeless> ... do all tests end up in master?
# [19:30] <jgraham> I don't think the tests should be more mature really
# [19:30] <timeless> ... do all tests in CR end up in master?
# [19:30] <timeless> darobin: the plan is "basically simple"
# [19:30] <timeless> ... we created "master" and "CR" initially
# [19:31] <timeless> ... primarily for specs w/ concurrent versions under developed
# [19:31] <timeless> ... initially for HTML5.0 and HTML5.1
# [19:31] <timeless> ... all news tests go into master
# [19:31] <timeless> ... when you want to flag the fact that you're stabilizing a subset of the tests for stable
# [19:31] <timeless> ... you merge that subset to CR
# [19:31] <timeless> ... if a group wants to merge at LC instead of CR, they can do that
# [19:31] <timeless> ... it's the stable branch
# [19:32] <timeless> darobin: we spent 3 weeks bikeshedding the name
# [19:32] <Ms2ger> s/we spent/No no no no no no, we spent/
# [19:33] * darobin shiny all the things!
# [19:33] <timeless> tobie: provided we get funding
# [19:33] <timeless> ... i think we'll try to make a shiny presentation
# [19:33] <timeless> ... and backed by proper tests
# [19:33] <Ms2ger> jgraham, can you elaborate?
# [19:33] <timeless> chaals: asking jgraham about tests being more mature
# [19:33] * darobin jgraham, knock if you can hear us
# [19:34] <timeless> chaals: jgraham, what does " I don't think the tests should be more mature really" mean?
# [19:34] <timeless> ArtB: i think we're about done on this topic
# [19:34] <Ms2ger> Boo
# [19:34] <timeless> topic: Chartering part 2
# [19:34] <jgraham> I mean that as far as possible the tests on CR should just be the same as those on master, but perhaps not covering new features
# [19:34] <Zakim> -tobie
# [19:34] <timeless> s/topic: Chartering part 2//
# [19:35] <timeless> topic: Chartering part 2
# [19:35] <jgraham> Also, I expect the bugs in tests on master to be worked out much faster
# [19:35] <timeless> tobie: have fun with that
# [19:35] <timeless> chaals: MikeSmith pointed out
# [19:35] * darobin jgraham: agreed, but I think there's general agreement, it was just the phrasing
# [19:35] <timeless> ... AppCache, AppCache v2, fixing that
# [19:35] <jgraham> Once we get people importing and running tests
# [19:35] <timeless> ... there's a Navigation Controller idea floating around
# [19:35] <jgraham> Which isn't really happeneing yet, and is a big problem
# [19:35] <timeless> ... Google hasn't provided their proposal, which they promised 6 months ago
# [19:35] * jgraham see you guys want to talk about chartering and will stop the long speil now
# [19:35] <timeless> ... if they submit it, or someone forks it
# [19:36] * Ms2ger jgraham but I'm importing! :)
# [19:36] <timeless> ... and submits it
# [19:36] <timeless> s/topic: Chartering part 2//
# [19:36] <timeless> MikeSmith: i want to point out the thing in the charter w/ the escape clause
# [19:36] * darobin jgraham: yeah, I've been thinking about that — I think that we should figure out an experiment smaller than importing the full repo to get started on with a willing guinea pig implementer
# [19:36] <timeless> ... is to move something from the HTML WG
# [19:36] <timeless> ... but Nav Controller isn't AppCache
# [19:36] <timeless> ... it's a superset
# [19:37] * darobin jgraham: because looking at the whole thing can seem daunting
# [19:37] <Zakim> -Ms2ger
# [19:37] <timeless> ... i don't want us to take it on, do the work, and someone by proxy says "this isn't in scope of your charter"
# [19:37] <timeless> ... "... it isn't the same as AppCache"
# [19:37] * Ms2ger darobin, feel free to ping if you get technical again :)
# [19:37] * darobin Ms2ger: assuming I notice ;)
# [19:37] <timeless> s/out much faster/out much faster. Once we get people importing and running tests. Which isn't really happeneing yet, and is a big problem./
# [19:37] <timeless> s/Which isn't really happeneing yet, and is a big problem//
# [19:38] <timeless> s/Once we get people importing and running tests//
# [19:38] <timeless> chaals: we don't want to take AppCache straight from html
# [19:38] <timeless> ... among the things in Fixing AppCache --- Nav Controller will be a proposed deliverable
# [19:39] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@public.cloak) (sicking)
# [19:39] <timeless> topic: Progress Events
# [19:40] <timeless> Jungkee: Jungkee from Samsung
# [19:40] <Jungkee> http://www.slideshare.net/jungkees/progress-events-web-apps-f2f-at-san-jose
# [19:40] <timeless> ... i made slides for this
# [19:40] <ArtB> -> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/progress/Progress.html ProgressEvent ED
# [19:41] <timeless> Jungkee: about status of Progress spec
# [19:41] <timeless> ... it's in CR
# [19:41] <timeless> ... for a while, XHR was the only consumer
# [19:41] <timeless> ... but we have 2 other consumers
# [19:41] <timeless> ... <img> in HTML5.1
# [19:41] <timeless> ... and Messaging API in SysApps WG
# [19:41] <timeless> ... we've taken Ms2ger 's submissions from the mercurial repo
# [19:41] <timeless> ... we've made approved test files w/ test assertions
# [19:42] <timeless> ... i made one ED change, from octet to byte
# [19:42] <Zakim> +??P3
# [19:42] <timeless> ... octet was a network term
# [19:42] <Ms2ger> Zakim, ??P3 is me
# [19:42] <Zakim> +Ms2ger; got it
# [19:42] <timeless> ... byte is what's used in XHR
# [19:42] <timeless> ... so this allowed for alignment with that
# [19:43] <timeless> ... Plan: Meet CR exit criteria
# [19:43] <timeless> ... patches in Gecko, WebKit and Blink are in progress
# [19:43] <timeless> ... and recently some have landed
# [19:43] <timeless> ... there are two test files
# [19:43] <timeless> ... Constructor.html and Interface.html
# [19:43] <Ms2ger> s/Interface.html/interfaces.html/
# [19:44] <JonathanJ> http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/Interop/ProgressEvents
# [19:44] * timeless Ms2ger the page art has lists `interface.html` not `interfaces.html`
# [19:44] <Ms2ger> https://wiki.mozilla.org/RapidRelease/Calendar
# [19:44] <timeless> Jungkee: the bugs should be fixed in Firefox 22
# [19:45] <timeless> ... can we use unstable releases?
# [19:45] <Ms2ger> s/interfaces.html/interface.html/
# [19:45] * Ms2ger is stupid
# [19:45] <timeless> ArtB: for Web Storage, we used Firefox Nightlies
# [19:45] <timeless> Ms2ger: my colleague landed patches to WebKit and Blink for Progress interface items 1 and 6
# [19:46] <timeless> s/Ms2ger/Jungkee
# [19:46] <timeless> ... Ms2ger left a comment that the outstanding bug in Mozilla is depending on bug 776864
# [19:46] <timeless> ... there's no progress on that
# [19:46] <timeless> ... once that's fixed, we can meet CR exit criteria
# [19:46] <timeless> ArtB: thanks
# [19:47] <timeless> smaug: WebIDL events for Progress bindings will land some time next week
# [19:47] <timeless> ... and then all events will have WebIDL bindings
# [19:47] <timeless> ArtB: at one point, WebKit was 100% the same as Blink
# [19:47] * Ms2ger Jungkee, bug number for Gecko should be 847611
# [19:47] <timeless> ... every day, that equality becomes less
# [19:47] <smaug> one
# [19:47] <timeless> ... are they one or two implementations?
# [19:48] <timeless> chaals: seems to me it depends on what the stuff is
# [19:48] * timeless +1
# [19:48] <timeless> ... look at it on a task basis
# [19:48] <timeless> ... webkit and blink are the same on a bunch of stuff
# [19:48] <timeless> ... and different on a bunch of stuff
# [19:48] <timeless> ... if they show plans to diverge, then they're different
# [19:48] <timeless> ... two implementations rule isn't some plan from heaven
# [19:49] <timeless> ... and different people who pick up this spe
# [19:49] <timeless> s/spe/spec/
# [19:49] <timeless> ... will understand it in the same way
# [19:49] <timeless> ... for now, this is the same thing
# [19:49] <timeless> ... different js engines, running around on webkit based browsers
# [19:49] <timeless> ... they're independent
# [19:49] <timeless> ... if someone writes the patch, and submits it to webkit and blink
# [19:49] <timeless> ... this isn't two implementations
# [19:49] <timeless> ... it'd be the same as if one person implemented it for webkit and gecko
# [19:50] * Ms2ger ... like Rik Cabanier tends to do for his canvas extensions
# [19:50] <timeless> ... what do you say?
# [19:50] <timeless> ... this isn't a filling the boxes
# [19:50] <timeless> ... in this case, we'll probably treat them the same
# [19:50] <smaug> brb
# [19:51] <timeless> Josh_Soref: We have past history
# [19:51] <timeless> ... where browser vendors shipped WebSQL based on a single SQL engine
# [19:51] <timeless> ... and we counted them as a single implementation
# [19:51] <timeless> lgombos: the javascript engines in WebKit and Blink are different
# [19:51] <timeless> ... your statements make sense today
# [19:52] <timeless> .. but they'll become radically different
# [19:52] <krisk> q+
# [19:52] * Zakim sees krisk on the speaker queue
# [19:52] <timeless> Travis: the testcases in IE are ported incorrectly
# [19:52] <timeless> ... i'm getting passes
# [19:52] <timeless> s/ported/reported/
# [19:52] <timeless> Jungkee: which version?
# [19:52] <timeless> Travis: 10
# [19:53] <timeless> ArtB: I used a Lumia WP8 IE
# [19:53] <timeless> Travis: I'm on the desktop browser
# [19:53] * Marcos Artb keeps his iPhone in his other pocket
# [19:53] <timeless> ArtB: did you run the constructor tests as well?
# [19:53] <timeless> Travis: i think there's a testing error
# [19:53] <timeless> Jungkee: for IE10, i'll go w/ the desktop version
# [19:54] <timeless> ... For Opera, this was Presto
# [19:54] <krisk> q
# [19:54] <ArtB> ACTION: Jungkee update the Progress Events interop data using IE 10 Desktop
# [19:54] * RRSAgent records action 7
# [19:54] * @trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [19:54] <@trackbot> Created ACTION-697 - Update the Progress Events interop data using IE 10 Desktop [on Jungkee Song - due 2013-05-03].
# [19:54] <timeless> ... but Opera will probably release a browser based on Blink
# [19:54] <timeless> chaals: that brings us back to the question
# [19:54] <timeless> ... do we accept Opera's implementations giving that they've EOL'd their project
# [19:54] <timeless> ... they implemented it interoperably in a product designed for the market
# [19:54] * Quits: krisk (~krisk@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [19:55] <timeless> ... conclusion is that someone sitting down can design it interoperably based on the spec
# [19:55] * Joins: krisk (~krisk@public.cloak)
# [19:55] <timeless> ... this is a quality measure of the spec
# [19:55] <timeless> ... the tests help you find out if it works right
# [19:55] <krisk> q
# [19:55] <timeless> krisk: one of the thing we've noticed
# [19:55] <timeless> ... is people reports stuff for IE, and they're wrong
# [19:55] <timeless> ... and they waste a lot of time
# [19:55] <timeless> ... it'd be good for people to contact us
# [19:56] <timeless> ... the vendor should do the reporting
# [19:56] <timeless> ArtB: good feedback
# [19:56] <timeless> [ Break ]
# [19:56] <Ms2ger> I don't think it makes sense to limit testing to only the vendor
# [19:56] <Ms2ger> It's much easier for one person to just run all the browsers they've got available
# [20:05] * Quits: jeffh (~d871a880@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [20:09] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [20:09] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/26-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
# [20:11] * Joins: jeffh (~d871a880@public.cloak)
# [20:20] <Jungkee> http://www.slideshare.net/jungkees/xhr-webappsf2fsanjose
# [20:21] <timeless> Topic: XHR Status
# [20:21] <timeless> s/Topic: XHR Status//
# [20:21] <timeless> i/www/Topic: XHR Status/
# [20:21] <timeless> Jungkee: Opera submitted quite a few test cases
# [20:21] * Joins: danielfilho|w (~danielfilho@public.cloak)
# [20:21] <timeless> ... 92
# [20:21] <timeless> ... along w/ 28 from MS and 3 from Ms2ger
# [20:22] <timeless> ... we have thin coverage
# [20:22] <timeless> ... and the tests have moved to github
# [20:22] <timeless> ... there were some missing files in the resource folder
# [20:22] <timeless> ... there were 14 commits from last November in WHATWG
# [20:22] <timeless> q+ chaals
# [20:22] * Zakim sees krisk, chaals on the speaker queue
# [20:22] <timeless> chaals: the differences,
# [20:23] <timeless> ... is there diverging?
# [20:23] <timeless> Jungkee: they split URL spec out
# [20:23] <timeless> ... some cleanups, and some stream response types
# [20:23] <timeless> ... there were stream response types in the spec before last TPAC
# [20:23] <timeless> ... when i checked whatwg, stream response was removed a few weeks ago
# [20:24] <timeless> chaals: do you think we'll do something different?
# [20:24] <timeless> Jungkee: we think we need to align the spec as much as possible
# [20:24] <timeless> ... we have 13 unresolved bugs
# [20:24] <timeless> ... we plan to branch a REC track version
# [20:24] <hallvord_> I'm half-way through a review of Opera's tests
# [20:24] <timeless> ... to finalize IP commitment
# [20:24] <timeless> ... it's widely implemented
# [20:24] <timeless> ... w/ defacto implementation
# [20:25] <timeless> ... it'd be really nice if the chairs have comments about this
# [20:25] <timeless> chaals: we think it's really cool
# [20:25] <timeless> ... it's useful to get a v1 spec finished
# [20:25] <timeless> ... XHR level 1 would be useful
# [20:25] <hallvord_> the spec has shifted a bit regarding details, so the tests were in worse shape than I expected
# [20:26] <timeless> ... out of scope: CORS, data: url, HTTP auth, overrideMimeType, and progrss events
# [20:26] <timeless> s/grss/gress/
# [20:26] <hallvord_> (sorry to interject stuff while you're probably having a conversation..)
# [20:26] <timeless> ... there's a controversial discussion on http auth
# [20:26] <timeless> ... there'sa XHR bleeding edge
# [20:26] <timeless> s/sa/s a/
# [20:27] <timeless> ... goal is to get it to REC around TPAC 2014
# [20:27] <timeless> ... working on issues
# [20:27] <timeless> ... expedite interop testing
# [20:27] <timeless> ... testing results
# [20:27] <timeless> ... the test results are different browser to browser
# [20:27] <timeless> ... tentatively titled XHR level 2
# [20:28] * Quits: adrianba (~adrianba@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [20:28] * Quits: arun (~arun@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [20:28] <timeless> ... we're open to discussion of the title
# [20:28] <hallvord_> (some of the differing test results are due to test bugs!)
# [20:28] <timeless> ... scope includes incremental features. stream response types
# [20:28] <timeless> ... major issues:
# [20:28] <timeless> ... 13
# [20:29] <Ms2ger> XHR level 1?
# [20:29] <Ms2ger> That means we're full circle, I guess
# [20:29] <chaals> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&bug_status=NEW&component=XHR&list_id=9031 -> open issues
# [20:29] <timeless> s/->//
# [20:29] <timeless> s/https/-> https/
# [20:29] * timeless this is issues for level 2
# [20:29] * Quits: ArtB (~abarsto@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [20:29] <hallvord_> https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/103 -> known test bugs right now
# [20:29] <timeless> Jungkee: ovverridemimetype, http auth
# [20:29] <timeless> ... loading and DOM
# [20:30] <timeless> ... and exceptions/or not
# [20:30] <timeless> ... for credentials, there are a few ways
# [20:30] <timeless> q?
# [20:30] * Zakim sees krisk, chaals on the speaker queue
# [20:30] <timeless> queue=
# [20:30] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:31] <timeless> ... providing user/auth
# [20:31] <timeless> ... and including in url
# [20:31] <timeless> ... for stream data type
# [20:31] <timeless> ... - i don't know how it goes
# [20:31] <timeless> ... possibly related to MSE ?
# [20:31] <timeless> ... - from HTML WG
# [20:31] <timeless> ... i don't think the other issues are really critical
# [20:32] <timeless> ... we haven't worked on those issues this quarter
# [20:32] <timeless> ... committed to looking in a few months
# [20:32] <timeless> ... back to level 1 version
# [20:32] <timeless> ... there was a discussion in HTML WG
# [20:32] <timeless> ... of publishing a TR as LC and FPWD
# [20:32] <timeless> ... i think for stable
# [20:33] <timeless> chaals: we already have a FPWD of XHR
# [20:33] <timeless> ... so it's a normal LC
# [20:33] <timeless> ... first already exists
# [20:33] <timeless> ... that makes life simple
# [20:33] <timeless> ... June or July for XHR level 1 LC
# [20:33] <timeless> ... questions?
# [20:34] * Joins: adrianba (~adrianba@public.cloak)
# [20:34] <timeless> chaals: seems clear and sensible to me
# [20:34] <timeless> ... any other issues we should have covered and haven't yet?
# [20:34] <timeless> ... are we going to go on strike?
# [20:34] <timeless> ... chaals: you're french darobin, it's not strike, it's summer time
# [20:35] * plh nots that restaurants are never on strike in France :)
# [20:35] <timeless> ... then i believe we're at the end of our agenda
# [20:35] * Marcos FUTURES vs PROMISES!!!
# [20:35] * Marcos claps loudly too
# [20:36] <timeless> chaals: i'd like to thank Josh_Soref for scribing
# [20:36] <timeless> [ Applause ]
# [20:36] <timeless> chaals: i'd like to thank ArtB who was here for all the of the real meaning
# [20:36] <timeless> ... and Yves
# [20:36] <timeless> ... we're very thankful to PayPal and Daniel_Austin
# [20:36] <timeless> ... and we'll see you all at TPAC
# [20:36] * Quits: bryan (~bryan@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [20:36] <timeless> ... there's Lunch outside
# [20:36] <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
# [20:36] <timeless> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [20:36] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/26-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [20:36] * Quits: adrianba (~adrianba@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
# [20:37] * Quits: Bin_Hu (~Bin_Hu@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [20:37] <timeless> trackbot, end meeting
# [20:37] * @trackbot is ending a teleconference.
# [20:37] <@trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
# [20:37] <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Paypal, Ms2ger, Olli_Pettay, +34.91.432.aaaa, [IPcaller], tobie
# [20:37] <smaug> thanks all
# [20:37] <@trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
# [20:37] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/26-webapps-minutes.html trackbot
# [20:37] <@trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
# [20:37] <RRSAgent> I'm staying, trackbot; no access has been specified for the meeting record
# [20:37] * timeless smaug ping
# [20:37] <timeless> trackbot, start meeting
# [20:37] * @trackbot is preparing a teleconference.
# [20:37] <@trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [20:37] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot
# [20:37] <smaug> timeless: pong
# [20:37] <@trackbot> Zakim, this will be DOM3
# [20:37] <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
# [20:37] <@trackbot> Meeting: Web Applications Working Group Teleconference
# [20:37] <@trackbot> Date: 26 April 2013
# [20:37] * Parts: jsbell (~uid6276@public.cloak)
# [20:37] <timeless> s/Meeting: Web Applications Working Group Teleconference//
# [20:37] <Ms2ger> More mailing lists?
# [20:37] <timeless> s/Date: 26 April 2013//
# [20:37] * jsbell_ is now known as jsbell
# [20:37] <timeless> Topic: Coordination (TC39)
# [20:37] <Ms2ger> That'll solve everything
# [20:37] <timeless> chaals: there was a request from TC39
# [20:38] <timeless> ... on public-script-coord@
# [20:38] <timeless> ... when we update apis
# [20:38] <timeless> ... they asked us to ping that list
# [20:38] <timeless> ... to ask if it was a really sensible API
# [20:38] <timeless> ... following the right kind of cookbooks
# [20:38] <timeless> ... and processes
# [20:38] <timeless> ... the chairs could be made responsible for sending a note to the list
# [20:38] <timeless> ... every time we have a new api to that list
# [20:38] <timeless> ... we also have a `api cookbook`
# [20:39] <timeless> ... on designing apis on things you shouldn't do
# [20:39] <timeless> ... i believe there's a cookbook around or two
# [20:39] <timeless> ... maybe we should look at taking it up
# [20:39] <timeless> darobin: there is a cookbook in github
# [20:39] <timeless> ... and it has content
# [20:39] <timeless> ... but it needs work
# [20:39] <timeless> ... it needs updates
# [20:39] <timeless> ... hober mentioned Futures
# [20:39] <timeless> ... i know Jungkee was working on it
# [20:39] <timeless> ... maybe if there are other contributors who want to help out
# [20:39] <timeless> ... it can be taken forward and published
# [20:40] <timeless> ... it's worth involving the new TAG in the cookbook
# [20:40] <timeless> Yves: it has people from TC39
# [20:40] <timeless> chaals: i sent an email to SysApps in particular
# [20:40] <Jungkee> http://www.w3.org/TR/api-design/
# [20:40] <timeless> ... but yeah, this isn't WebApps and TC39
# [20:40] <darobin> https://github.com/darobin/api-design-cookbook/
# [20:40] <timeless> ... there are other groups around W3
# [20:40] <timeless> ... can you action me to send this to the other groups
# [20:40] <timeless> ... and to those who don't read emails
# [20:40] <darobin> ACTION: Chaals to send a note to chairs indicating the TC39 API review policy
# [20:40] * RRSAgent records action 8
# [20:40] * @trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [20:40] <@trackbot> Created ACTION-698 - Send a note to chairs indicating the TC39 API review policy [on Charles McCathie Nevile - due 2013-05-03].
# [20:41] <timeless> chaals: this came from a discussion between TC39 and us, on public-script-coord@
# [20:41] <timeless> ... they said, yes please, that'd be helpful
# [20:41] <timeless> Daniel_Austin: we're technically members, we can help
# [20:41] <timeless> chaals: thank you Daniel_Austin for hosting
# [20:41] <timeless> [ Applause ]
# [20:42] <timeless> Daniel_Austin: i got an email from someone @ PayPal, and i was authorized to do this again next year
# [20:42] <timeless> ... we'll try to avoid Bring your kids to work day
# [20:42] <timeless> ... we had a bet as to which kids would be best behaved
# [20:42] <timeless> chaals: thanks very much
# [20:42] <smaug> thanks
# [20:42] * plh next year will have a "bring your kids to a W3C f2f" day
# [20:42] <timeless> s/timeless: pong//
# [20:42] <timeless> trackbot, end meeting
# [20:42] * @trackbot is ending a teleconference.
# [20:42] <@trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
# [20:42] <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
# [20:43] <@trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
# [20:43] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/26-webapps-minutes.html trackbot
# [20:43] <@trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
# [20:43] <RRSAgent> I see 8 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/26-webapps-actions.rdf :
# [20:43] <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow announce the WG will meet during TPAC 2013 in November [1]
# [20:43] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/26-webapps-irc#T16-11-33-1
# [20:43] <RRSAgent> ACTION: charles to be the default Editor of URL spec [2]
# [20:43] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/26-webapps-irc#T16-20-32
# [20:43] <RRSAgent> ACTION: charles prepare a Draft charter update for the WG to review [3]
# [20:43] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/26-webapps-irc#T16-22-08
# [20:43] <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow work with Tobie, Robin, Ms2ger, Odin, etc. to make sure WebApps' testing workflow is well documented and kept on GitHub [4]
# [20:43] * Quits: wonsuk (~wonsuk@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [20:43] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/26-webapps-irc#T17-25-03
# [20:43] <RRSAgent> ACTION: create CR branch for Web Storage and Selectors API v1 test suites [5]
# [20:43] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/26-webapps-irc#T17-27-17
# [20:43] <RRSAgent> ACTION: kris create the CR branch for Web Messaging and Web Sockets test suites [6]
# [20:43] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/26-webapps-irc#T17-29-18
# [20:43] <RRSAgent> ACTION: Jungkee update the Progress Events interop data using IE 10 Desktop [7]
# [20:43] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/26-webapps-irc#T17-54-29
# [20:43] <RRSAgent> ACTION: Chaals to send a note to chairs indicating the TC39 API review policy [8]
# [20:43] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/26-webapps-irc#T18-41-16
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# Session Close: Sat Apr 27 00:00:00 2013

The end :)