/irc-logs / w3c / #webapps / 2013-06-05 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Jun 05 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #webapps
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  19. # [01:53] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/06/04-webapps-irc
  20. # [01:53] <travis> RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
  21. # [01:53] <RRSAgent> ok, travis; I will not start a new log at midnight
  22. # [01:54] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@public.cloak) ("Computer has gone to sleep.")
  23. # [01:54] <travis> zakim, this is dom3
  24. # [01:54] <Zakim> travis, I see RWC_WAPI(D3E)8:00PM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be dom3".
  25. # [01:54] <travis> zakim, this will be dom3
  26. # [01:54] <Zakim> ok, travis; I see RWC_WAPI(D3E)8:00PM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
  27. # [01:56] <travis> agenda+ New repository for editor's drafts (CVS->Hg)
  28. # [01:56] * Zakim notes agendum 1 added
  29. # [01:56] <travis> agenda+ Summary/overview of recent updates (formatting/typos)
  30. # [01:56] * Zakim notes agendum 2 added
  31. # [01:57] <travis> agenda+ Overview of proposed changes (adding section on 'input' and 'beforeinput')
  32. # [01:57] * Zakim notes agendum 3 added
  33. # [01:57] <travis> agenda+ Use cases for locale attribute
  34. # [01:57] * Zakim notes agendum 4 added
  35. # [01:57] <travis> agenda+ Reviving 'textinput' event?
  36. # [01:57] * Zakim notes agendum 5 added
  37. # [01:59] <travis> agenda+ Review the bug list (https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=WebAppsWG&component=DOM3%20Events&;resolution=---)
  38. # [01:59] * Zakim notes agendum 6 added
  39. # [02:00] <Zakim> RWC_WAPI(D3E)8:00PM has now started
  40. # [02:00] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  41. # [02:00] <travis> Zakim, microsoft is me
  42. # [02:00] <Zakim> +travis; got it
  43. # [02:00] * Joins: garykac (~garykac@public.cloak)
  44. # [02:00] <travis> Hi gary!
  45. # [02:00] * Joins: kochi_ (~kochi_home@public.cloak)
  46. # [02:00] <garykac> Hallo!
  47. # [02:00] <kochi_> hi
  48. # [02:00] * Joins: real_wez (~realwez@public.cloak)
  49. # [02:00] <garykac> We'll be dialing in in a sec.
  50. # [02:01] <travis> scribe: travil
  51. # [02:01] * real_wez will dial in with Gary.
  52. # [02:01] <travis> scribe: Travis
  53. # [02:01] <travis> scribeNick: Travis
  54. # [02:01] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  55. # [02:01] <Zakim> + +1.425.893.aaaa
  56. # [02:01] <travis> zakim, ipcaller is kochi_
  57. # [02:01] <Zakim> +kochi_; got it
  58. # [02:02] <travis> zakim, 1.425 is garykac
  59. # [02:02] <Zakim> sorry, travis, I do not recognize a party named '1.425'
  60. # [02:02] <travis> zakim, +1.425 is garykac
  61. # [02:02] <Zakim> +garykac; got it
  62. # [02:02] <travis> zakim, who is on the phone?
  63. # [02:02] <Zakim> On the phone I see travis, kochi_, garykac
  64. # [02:03] <travis> agenda
  65. # [02:03] <travis> http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/DOM3Events
  66. # [02:03] <travis> zakim, what is the agenda?
  67. # [02:03] <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
  68. # [02:03] <Zakim> 1. New repository for editor's drafts (CVS->Hg) [from travis]
  69. # [02:03] <Zakim> 2. Summary/overview of recent updates (formatting/typos) [from travis]
  70. # [02:03] <Zakim> 3. Overview of proposed changes (adding section on 'input' and 'beforeinput') [from travis]
  71. # [02:03] <Zakim> 4. Use cases for locale attribute [from travis]
  72. # [02:03] <Zakim> 5. Reviving 'textinput' event? [from travis]
  73. # [02:03] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  74. # [02:03] <Zakim> 6. Review the bug list (https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=WebAppsWG&component=DOM3%20Events&;resolution=---) [from travis]
  75. # [02:03] <travis> agenda+ Discuss spacebar
  76. # [02:03] * Zakim notes agendum 7 added
  77. # [02:05] <travis> zakim, move to agenda 1
  78. # [02:05] <Zakim> agendum 1. "New repository for editor's drafts (CVS->Hg)" taken up [from travis]
  79. # [02:05] <garykac> So.. starting from the top...
  80. # [02:05] <garykac> We are using the new repository
  81. # [02:05] * real_wez is being insulted by garykac.
  82. # [02:05] <garykac> It's a bit flaky at times
  83. # [02:05] <garykac> It often fails to authenticate
  84. # [02:06] <garykac> But the it starts working again a few hours later
  85. # [02:06] <garykac> I'
  86. # [02:06] <garykac> I've converted the spec to use respec everywhere
  87. # [02:07] <garykac> Which means that it's autonumbered now
  88. # [02:07] <travis> Link to new ReSpec edition: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/dom3events/raw-file/6cc9e60bf4b1/html/DOM3-Events.html
  89. # [02:07] <garykac> and we use respec formatting for the IDL
  90. # [02:07] <garykac> this organizes the content a little bit more nicely
  91. # [02:07] <garykac> especially with the IDL stuff
  92. # [02:08] <garykac> previously the IDL definitions were spread in multiple sections, now we only have to define it in one place
  93. # [02:09] <garykac> I also added a key table generator. the content of the table is now generated via javascript
  94. # [02:09] <travis> Looks great--I don't notice any significant changes... :0)
  95. # [02:10] * Joins: abarsto (~abarsto@public.cloak)
  96. # [02:10] * abarsto is now known as ArtB
  97. # [02:11] <travis> garykac: need to make the spec look like an editor's draft, instead of a working draft.
  98. # [02:11] <garykac> All the changes have been merged into the top-of-tree to make a new baseline
  99. # [02:12] <travis> zakim, next agendum
  100. # [02:12] <Zakim> agendum 2. "Summary/overview of recent updates (formatting/typos)" taken up [from travis]
  101. # [02:12] <travis> garykac: Fixed a couple of typos...
  102. # [02:12] <garykac> And a couple of grammar issues and capitalization
  103. # [02:13] <travis> zakim, move agendum 6 to 4
  104. # [02:13] <Zakim> I don't understand 'move agendum 6 to 4', travis
  105. # [02:13] <travis> zakim, next agendum
  106. # [02:13] <Zakim> agendum 3. "Overview of proposed changes (adding section on 'input' and 'beforeinput')" taken up [from travis]
  107. # [02:14] <garykac> There are a bunch of places in the spec that refer to 'input' events replace 'keypress'
  108. # [02:14] <garykac> But 'input' is not properly defined in any spec
  109. # [02:14] <garykac> On the ML, someone said that they expected it to be in this spec.
  110. # [02:14] <garykac> Which was a great surprise to those of us working on this spec
  111. # [02:15] <garykac> however, it makes some sense to include it here if we're going to going to rely on it to replace 'keypress'
  112. # [02:15] <travis> zakim, agenda order is 3,5
  113. # [02:15] <Zakim> ok, travis
  114. # [02:15] <real_wez> I'm not convinced that input/beforeinput is the right way to solve this
  115. # [02:16] <real_wez> They are geared toward notifying of changes to the contents of input elements, IIUC
  116. # [02:16] <real_wez> Fundamentally they are not tied to text input
  117. # [02:16] <garykac> I think we need to make sure the spec includes a suitable replacement for 'keypress'
  118. # [02:16] <real_wez> I think we're agreed we want a replacement for keypress
  119. # [02:17] * Quits: jsbell (~jsbell@public.cloak) ("There's no place like home...")
  120. # [02:17] <real_wez> The old textInput spec seems a better fit for that than input
  121. # [02:17] <kochi_> FYI I'm seeing old textInput spec at http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-DOM-Level-3-Events-20110531/#events-textevents
  122. # [02:17] <real_wez> What do input and beforeinput contain if the element isn't a text input element, for example?
  123. # [02:19] <real_wez> Gary points out that input and beforeinput may only have been intended to apply to text editing fields, originally
  124. # [02:19] <real_wez> One point arguing against textInput has been that e.g. speech recognition should be distinguishable from keyboard text input
  125. # [02:19] <travis> I think that beforeinput was indended to be for editing, yes.
  126. # [02:20] <travis> The input event is basically a change notification for input/textarea elements.
  127. # [02:20] <travis> The only context it conveys is the 'target' , where to check for the updated text.
  128. # [02:21] <real_wez> If input/beforeinput are text-element-specific then I'd be more comfortable with using beforeinput to convey newly-entered characters
  129. # [02:21] <travis> The textInput carried all the data from the KeyboardEvent.
  130. # [02:21] <real_wez> However, there's the question of how non-text-input elements would receive character data if entered, e.g. <div>
  131. # [02:22] <travis> The element has to be focusable... right?
  132. # [02:22] <real_wez> If you create a <div> and add event listeners for "keydown" etc then can yoiu also get "beforeinput" so as to see the character input?
  133. # [02:22] <garykac> It sounded like input/beforeinput were intended for editing, so I'm not sure if a <div> would receive them
  134. # [02:23] <travis> input/beforeinput make sense when actual text gets added--but not for generic elements...
  135. # [02:23] <real_wez> Gary suggests starting a thread on the broader mailing list around the rationale for preferring input/beforeinput vs textInput
  136. # [02:24] <garykac> ...and bring up these issues
  137. # [02:24] <travis> Is there any reason why we wouldn't consider back 'keypress'?
  138. # [02:24] <real_wez> Historically it was under-specified
  139. # [02:24] <travis> garykac: We could specify it...
  140. # [02:24] <real_wez> Plus, we may receive multiple characters for a single keypress, which the existing keypress w/ char field doesn't really fit
  141. # [02:25] <real_wez> i.e. if we use it to convey entered text, it doesn't then match an individual keypress, so it's mis-named
  142. # [02:26] <real_wez> Plus, if we have e.g. textInput then that can in principle be generated by other input than keyboard, e.g. speech recognizers
  143. # [02:26] <real_wez> Without confusing folks by the name
  144. # [02:26] <garykac> There's a lot of exising documentation on the web that describes how to use 'keypress' and it covers the old/broken version. So there might be confusion if we redefine it.
  145. # [02:26] <real_wez> True
  146. # [02:27] <travis> So, textInput means that input is being sent--not necessarily that input is being recieved.
  147. # [02:27] <real_wez> But then how prevalent are the "broken" implementations - are the various browsers at least consistent?
  148. # [02:27] <real_wez> travis: More that text input has been generated, somehow, not necessarily via keyboard input
  149. # [02:28] <real_wez> e.g. you might get text input by an on-screen keyboard, or from speech recognition, OCR, etc
  150. # [02:28] * Joins: marcosc (~marcosc@public.cloak)
  151. # [02:28] <real_wez> Gary says that keypress implementations are not consistent wrt ordering of events, etc - we'd have to break existing impls to define something consistent
  152. # [02:28] <real_wez> That seems bad to me!
  153. # [02:28] <kochi_> allowing non-edit element to get textInput event fits the model that IME API assumes
  154. # [02:29] * Quits: dgrogan (~dgrogan@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
  155. # [02:29] <real_wez> You mean that non-<input> elements can receive entered text?
  156. # [02:29] <garykac> If we define 'keypress' now, we'll end up breaking at least one current implementation and there are certainly webapps that depend on current browser behavior
  157. # [02:29] <kochi_> real_wez: yes
  158. # [02:30] <real_wez> Gary also mentions that looking for the "input" event in docs is a pain because the name is so generic!
  159. # [02:30] <real_wez> (I think that's also true for the name "UI Events")
  160. # [02:30] <real_wez> ;)
  161. # [02:31] <travis> Got to search with "named input" :-)
  162. # [02:31] <real_wez> Can we change the spec to "DOM4 UI Events" or "D4E UI Events" or something more helpful?
  163. # [02:32] <travis> So, do we have an opinion on adding 'input'/'beforeinput' vs.bringing textinput back?
  164. # [02:33] <travis> real_wez: I think it would be great to have both input/beforeinput in the spec as well as textinput...
  165. # [02:33] <real_wez> My preference would be to add specification of beforeinput and input to D3E, independent of the input vs textInput question
  166. # [02:33] <real_wez> Yay
  167. # [02:33] <real_wez> I am double-scribed
  168. # [02:33] <travis> garykac: I'm worried about the delay that will cause to the spec.
  169. # [02:33] <garykac> I would rather punt to D4UIEvents unless we need to include it in DOM3 in order to cover a replacement on 'keypress'
  170. # [02:35] <travis> zakim, next agenda
  171. # [02:35] <Zakim> agendum 5. "Reviving 'textinput' event?" taken up [from travis]
  172. # [02:35] <travis> zakim, next agenda
  173. # [02:35] <Zakim> agendum 5 was just opened, travis
  174. # [02:35] * travis yes, I know.
  175. # [02:35] <travis> zakim, move to the next agendum
  176. # [02:35] * Quits: marcosc (~marcosc@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  177. # [02:35] <Zakim> I don't understand 'move to the next agendum', travis
  178. # [02:35] <real_wez> Questions is about the use-cases for the "locale" field
  179. # [02:35] <real_wez> *question
  180. # [02:35] <travis> zakim, next agendum
  181. # [02:35] <Zakim> agendum 5 was just opened, travis
  182. # [02:36] <travis> zakim, close this agendum
  183. # [02:36] <Zakim> agendum 5 closed
  184. # [02:36] <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
  185. # [02:36] <Zakim> 4. Use cases for locale attribute [from travis]
  186. # [02:36] <real_wez> Locale was invented for use w/ textInput so that the source of textInput is clear
  187. # [02:36] <kochi_> the original intention of local was to add context for textinput event
  188. # [02:37] <real_wez> Locale field was then propagated to keydown, keyup, composition*, etc
  189. # [02:37] <real_wez> The intent with 'locale" was to support language-specific spell-check, word suggestions, etc, if I understand correctly?
  190. # [02:38] <garykac> Locale is a BDP-47 string
  191. # [02:38] <garykac> Do the IME events specify a subset of these strings? or can any BCP-47 string be present and useful?
  192. # [02:38] <garykac> It seems like a lot of the BCP-47 strings are too general
  193. # [02:39] <garykac> kochi sez: locale is useful as a hint
  194. # [02:39] <travis> kochi_: I see this as a hint to applications, it's not specific like en-us, but is still useful.
  195. # [02:39] <travis> kochi_: For example: spellchecking would see that it's not russian, but english...
  196. # [02:39] <real_wez> Have any browsers implemented 'locale' yet?
  197. # [02:39] <travis> IE9 has implemented.
  198. # [02:40] <travis> kochi_: Masayuki implemented in Firefox
  199. # [02:40] <kochi_> FF has implementation for Win/Mac
  200. # [02:43] <kochi_> smart quotes (") is a use case for keypress locale
  201. # [02:43] <real_wez> kochi_: So would having 'locale' on textInput not work for that use-case? Would that be too late to see the locale?
  202. # [02:44] * Joins: Travis_ (~Travis_@public.cloak)
  203. # [02:44] <kochi_> real_wez: should be same for keypress and textInput
  204. # [02:44] <real_wez> kochi_: Are we allowing re-writing of events, e.g. textInput w/ '"' becomes textInput with '>>" in French?>
  205. # [02:45] <real_wez> kochi_: keypress is deprecated; do you mean keydown?
  206. # [02:45] <kochi_> usually modern custom editors listen events in hidden field and can insert different character for rendering text
  207. # [02:46] <kochi_> so users won't see raw (") character typed
  208. # [02:46] <Travis_> zakim, agenda?
  209. # [02:46] <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
  210. # [02:46] <Zakim> 4. Use cases for locale attribute [from travis]
  211. # [02:46] <Zakim> 6. Review the bug list (https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=WebAppsWG&component=DOM3%20Events&;resolution=---) [from travis]
  212. # [02:46] <Zakim> 7. Discuss spacebar [from travis]
  213. # [02:46] <real_wez> kochi_: Could custom editors listen for textInput, detect the locale, and adjust the characters entered, then?
  214. # [02:46] <kochi_> real_wez: i think so.
  215. # [02:46] <Travis_> I think there's a bit more detail that should be considered...
  216. # [02:47] * Quits: travis (~travis@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  217. # [02:47] <real_wez> kochi_: So we don't need 'locale' on keydown/keyup?
  218. # [02:47] <kochi_> real_wez: might be, if textInput is implemented.
  219. # [02:48] <real_wez> kochi_: :D
  220. # [02:48] <garykac> Question to answer: is the current spec (BCP-47) good enough? It sounds like it is for IME events, but it might not be for keydown/keyup events.
  221. # [02:48] <Travis_> I wonder if it's sufficient to have it only in the CompositionEvents + IME API.
  222. # [02:49] <kochi_> Travis_: if system doesn't have IME at all, no composition events but some apps may want to know whether the locale is French or English, for example
  223. # [02:49] <Travis_> We have to agree (and get the working group to agree) that BCP-47 is good enough. Might be worth a shot.
  224. # [02:50] <real_wez> Gary suggests that for the current use-cases, BCP-47 is overkill - not necessarily a reason to change it, but worth bearing in mind
  225. # [02:50] <Travis_> So, when we go into Last Call for CR, we can mark locale "at risk" meaning we can rip it out without going back to working draft if necessary.
  226. # [02:50] <real_wez> Based on the current use-cases revolving around language-matching
  227. # [02:51] <garykac> The current spec says that locale is defined as BCP-47, so we should be good there.
  228. # [02:51] <Travis_> zakim, next agendum
  229. # [02:51] <Zakim> agendum 4. "Use cases for locale attribute" taken up [from travis]
  230. # [02:51] <Travis_> zakim, close this agendum
  231. # [02:51] <Zakim> agendum 4 closed
  232. # [02:51] <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
  233. # [02:51] <Zakim> 6. Review the bug list (https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=WebAppsWG&component=DOM3%20Events&;resolution=---) [from travis]
  234. # [02:52] <Travis_> zakim, take up agendum 7
  235. # [02:52] <Zakim> agendum 7. "Discuss spacebar" taken up [from travis]
  236. # [02:52] <real_wez> Gary raises Masayuki's point about the Spacebar key value; he agrees that 'Spacebar' is a bad name, and more suitable for D4E's 'code' value for that key
  237. # [02:53] <garykac> There are a lot of X11 keysyms that seem to have been imported from an old font (not keyboard).
  238. # [02:54] <garykac> Wez recalls that these were related to an old (obsolete) DEC keyboard related to publishing
  239. # [02:54] <garykac> I don't think we should worry about NBSP, halfwidth space, et al. unless we can find a modern keyboard layout that generated these keys.
  240. # [02:55] <Travis_> What is the specific action for D3E?
  241. # [02:56] <garykac> Also, the SPACE and the Keypad_SPACE should both generate the same 'key' value (just like the '2' and the Keypad-'2' generate the same value - just with a different location)
  242. # [02:57] <garykac> For D3E, we need to update the definition for 'key' when the spacebar is pressed
  243. # [02:57] <Travis_> When implementing the key values for various control characters, the question of what to report was raised, as it's somewhat ambiguous
  244. # [02:57] <real_wez> Fundamentally the keysyms Masayuki raised are of two kinds: Space and KP_Space have the same semantic meaning, but are on different physical keys - they can generate the same 'key' and then be distinguished by location. The remaining "space" KeySyms have different meanings to the normal space character, so aren't appropriate for including in 'key'
  245. # [03:00] <Travis_> So, it might be worth giving some of those control codes names (if they don't already in the spec).
  246. # [03:01] <garykac> Yes, names for the control codes makes sense (even though I'm not sure how to type them)
  247. # [03:01] <Travis_> Next meeting in 2 weeks (June 18)
  248. # [03:01] <Travis_> Same time.
  249. # [03:02] <real_wez> ASCII has the "printable" characters starting from character 0x20 (32) (Space) - the preceding characters are "control" characters. I think it would make sense to use that distinction here, and so have ASCII Printable characters always use the character for the 'key' value, and generate the corresponding character input
  250. # [03:02] <Travis_> zakim, agenda?
  251. # [03:02] <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda:
  252. # [03:02] <Zakim> 6. Review the bug list (https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=WebAppsWG&component=DOM3%20Events&;resolution=---) [from travis]
  253. # [03:02] <Zakim> 7. Discuss spacebar [from travis]
  254. # [03:02] <real_wez> And have non-"ASCII-printable" characters use named 'key' values, e.g. 'Tab', 'Delete', etc
  255. # [03:02] <Travis_> zakim, close agenda 7
  256. # [03:02] <Zakim> agendum 7, Discuss spacebar, closed
  257. # [03:02] <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
  258. # [03:02] <Zakim> 6. Review the bug list (https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=WebAppsWG&component=DOM3%20Events&;resolution=---) [from travis]
  259. # [03:02] <Travis_> zakim, close agenda 6
  260. # [03:02] <Zakim> agendum 6, Review the bug list (https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=WebAppsWG&component=DOM3%20Events&;resolution=---), closed
  261. # [03:02] <Zakim> I see nothing remaining on the agenda
  262. # [03:02] <Zakim> -kochi_
  263. # [03:02] <Zakim> -garykac
  264. # [03:03] * Travis_ thanks Zakim for his help.
  265. # [03:03] * Quits: real_wez (~realwez@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  266. # [03:03] <Travis_> rrsagent, prepare the minutes
  267. # [03:03] <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'prepare the minutes', Travis_. Try /msg RRSAgent help
  268. # [03:03] <Travis_> rrsagent, make the minutes
  269. # [03:03] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/06/04-webapps-minutes.html Travis_
  270. # [03:03] <Zakim> -travis
  271. # [03:03] <Zakim> RWC_WAPI(D3E)8:00PM has ended
  272. # [03:03] <Zakim> Attendees were travis, +1.425.893.aaaa, kochi_, garykac
  273. # [03:04] <Travis_> rrsagent, make the minutes public
  274. # [03:04] <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make the minutes public', Travis_. Try /msg RRSAgent help
  275. # [03:05] <Travis_> rrsagent, make logs public
  276. # [03:05] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, Travis_
  277. # [03:07] <Travis_> Present: garykac
  278. # [03:07] <Travis_> Present: Travis_
  279. # [03:07] * Quits: lyle (~lyle@public.cloak) (lyle)
  280. # [03:07] <Travis_> Present: real_wez
  281. # [03:08] <Travis_> Present: kochi_
  282. # [03:08] * Quits: garykac (~garykac@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  283. # [03:08] <Travis_> rrsagent, please make the minutes
  284. # [03:08] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/06/04-webapps-minutes.html Travis_
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The end :)