/irc-logs / w3c / #webapps / 2013-08-07 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Aug 07 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #webapps
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  15. # [01:55] <kochi_home> Morning
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  18. # [02:00] <jgraham> kochi_home: Maybe for you ;)
  19. # [02:02] <kochi_home> hi jgraham
  20. # [02:03] <kochi_home> Travis should have scheduled DOM L3 telcon Aug 6
  21. # [02:03] <kochi_home> http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/30-July-2013
  22. # [02:03] <kochi_home> > <Travis> Let's try for Aug. 6th!
  23. # [02:04] <garykac> Indeed. I saw an email that he got it scheduled for now.
  24. # [02:04] <garykac> Let me look it up.
  25. # [02:05] <garykac> Arthur said that we now have this meeting scheduled weekly so that we can us it during odd weeks.
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  28. # [02:13] <garykac> Kochi asks: What should preventDefault do when set for compositionevent?
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  30. # [02:15] <kochi_home> bug 18030
  31. # [02:15] <kochi_home> no
  32. # [02:15] <kochi_home> 18931
  33. # [02:15] <garykac> And suggests that it setting preventDefault to true should result in the DOM not being updated.
  34. # [02:16] <kochi_home> www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18931
  35. # [02:18] <masayuki> It seems that we don't need beforeinput for compositionupdate.
  36. # [02:19] <garykac> Yes, if beforeinput cannot be canceled, then it doesn't seem to do anything useful.
  37. # [02:20] <garykac> But that means that we would have input events firing with out having a beforeinput event.
  38. # [02:20] <garykac> So we wouldn't be able to write the spec as "input events are always preceded by beforeinput events"
  39. # [02:21] <kochi_home> For IME API's perspective, preventDefault()'ing beforinput event
  40. # [02:21] <masayuki> I think that it's not problem. beforeinput and input are really different event even their names are smililar.
  41. # [02:21] <garykac> I'd rather get rid of input events during composition, but it sounds like the consensus is that we need to keep them around.
  42. # [02:21] <kochi_home> can give Javascript chance to draw composition text itself and modify .value
  43. # [02:22] <garykac> kochi: Ah. So calling preventDefault wouldn't cancel the compositionupdate, it would just say that the client is going to update the DOM itself.
  44. # [02:23] <kochi_home> yes, it is my idea.
  45. # [02:23] <masayuki> kochi_home: Isn't JS IME handles only key event? I mean that shouldn't be native IME disabled for JS IME?
  46. # [02:24] <masayuki> Sounds odd to me that JS IME works with native IME.
  47. # [02:25] <kochi_home> hmm, yes, if JS IME comes into place,
  48. # [02:25] <kochi_home> mm
  49. # [02:25] <kochi_home> masayuki: I think I now understand.
  50. # [02:26] <kochi_home> at this point with IME API you can't provide IME API, but you can talk to native system IME
  51. # [02:27] <kochi_home> So what I mentioned above is talking about interacting system IME by Javascript
  52. # [02:27] <masayuki> I think that there should be an API to disable native IME which can be used by JS IME.
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  54. # [02:27] <masayuki> kochi_home: like Google suggest?
  55. # [02:28] <kochi_home> masayuki: like google docs, which wants to draw composition text itself
  56. # [02:28] <kochi_home> without using a hack to listen to composition update in a hidden textarea
  57. # [02:29] <masayuki> kochi_home: I understand.
  58. # [02:30] <kochi_home> in that case, if DOM is modified before compositionupdate event, drawing composition text is too late
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  60. # [02:30] <kochi_home> but if Javascript code can trap beforeInput, it would be a perfect timing to do that
  61. # [02:32] <kochi_home> masayuki: (about having an API to disable native IME to switch JS IME - yes, we should have one once we provide APIs to implement IME in Javascript)
  62. # [02:32] <garykac> So, you're suggesting that beforeinput during composition would allow preventDefault (to skip updating the DOM), but not be cancelable? Not updating the DOM could be considered canceling, couldn't it? What's the advantage of using preventDefault for this instead of cencel?
  63. # [02:33] <kochi_home> my gut feeling is that canceling a beforInput event for composition udpate mean cancellation of the composition session
  64. # [02:34] <kochi_home> while preventDefault is just canceling what browsers would do when it get updates from IME
  65. # [02:35] <kochi_home> but if the behavior for preventDefault() is different for key events and composition events, spec would be very messy. That is my concern.
  66. # [02:36] <garykac> But we could define "cancel" to mean don't update the DOM, but stay in the IME. Do we need (is it possible) to cancel the IME from within JS handler?
  67. # [02:36] <garykac> I'll have to review how preventDefault is spec'ed for key events...
  68. # [02:37] <kochi_home> okay, it is another option (define "cancel" to mean don't update the DOM)
  69. # [02:38] <masayuki> kochi_home: Even if a call of peventDefault() of beforeinput prevents to update composition string, doesn't modifying editor content cause committing the composition on most browsers?
  70. # [02:39] <kochi_home> yes, currently most browsers cancel composition if .value is modified...
  71. # [02:41] <masayuki> kochi_home: So, I'm not sure if your idea is actually useful...
  72. # [02:42] <kochi_home> I think that javascript can draw composition string is a useful for some application, but how to realize it, which events to use is a difficult question.
  73. # [02:43] <masayuki> How about to make compositionupdate cancelable for such purpose?
  74. # [02:44] <garykac> If cancelable just means that we don't update the DOM (rather than canceling the IME), then we could have beforeinput do that.
  75. # [02:44] <kochi_home> so when compositionupdate is cancelled, DOM is already modified but screen is not updated?
  76. # [02:45] <garykac> However, I'm not sure if it's valuable to have compositionupdate + beforeinput.
  77. # [02:45] <kochi_home> (I assume bug 18931 is resolved and compositionupdate is sent after DOM modification)
  78. # [02:46] <garykac> compositionupdate could be defined to not have the DOM already modified. That's consistent with Chrome/FF already.
  79. # [02:46] <masayuki> kochi_home: If compositionupdate is cancelable, dispatching compositionupdate before DOM modification is good timing.
  80. # [02:46] <kochi_home> yeah, if IE12+ can follow the behavior ... :)
  81. # [02:47] <garykac> That sounds reasonable to me. It also means that we wouldn't need beforeinput in that case.
  82. # [02:48] <masayuki> garykac: yes
  83. # [02:48] <garykac> While it would be nice to have beforeinput for consistency, it's also nice to have fewer events firing.
  84. # [02:48] <kochi_home> if it is more consistent with beforeInput for non-composition event, that sounds a good idea
  85. # [02:49] <garykac> OK. I'll update the document to organize it into the various specific issues we've been discussing.
  86. # [02:50] <kochi_home> garykac: thanks
  87. # [02:50] <garykac> We won't be meeting next week (since some people are not available), but we can still discuss this via the document.
  88. # [02:50] <garykac> I'll send out another email once I've incorporated all the feedback from everyone.
  89. # [02:50] <kochi_home> garykac: sure
  90. # [02:50] <garykac> It feels like we're making some progress here...
  91. # [02:51] <kochi_home> thanks garykac, masayuki!
  92. # [02:51] <masayuki> Thank you.
  93. # [02:51] <garykac> When is the next tie everyone is available?
  94. # [02:52] <garykac> Next week doesn't work, but what about the week after that?
  95. # [02:52] <masayuki> I'm available both 20 and 27.
  96. # [02:52] <kochi_home> I'm available for Aug 13, 20, 27,
  97. # [02:52] <garykac> OK. Let's meetup again on the 20th.
  98. # [02:53] <garykac> We already have Zakim setup for us each week at this time.
  99. # [02:53] <kochi_home> yup, let's keep Travis updated.
  100. # [02:53] <garykac> Indeed.
  101. # [02:53] <garykac> I'm going to head out now. Thank you everyone!
  102. # [02:53] <kochi_home> Thanks!
  103. # [02:53] <masayuki> Thank you!
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  135. # [14:29] <ArtB> MikeSmith - thanks for getting websocket test server running again!
  136. # [14:29] <MikeSmith> ArtB: yw
  137. # [14:29] <ArtB> seems like we should put some type of Warning or "Run Me First" file/flag in http://w3c-test.org/web-platform-tests/master/websockets/
  138. # [14:30] <ArtB> is there a precedence for something like that?
  139. # [14:30] <MikeSmith> ArtB: none that I know of
  140. # [14:31] <ArtB> ms2ger, jgraham, all - wdyt re a warning for websocket server?
  141. # [14:35] <ArtB> MikeSmith - are the steps you used to get the jetty server started documented somewhere so that tobie, plh, darobin or someone else can start it if/when you aren't available?
  142. # [14:36] * darobin_ is now known as darobin
  143. # [14:37] <darobin> that's not how we do things around here ArtB
  144. # [14:37] <darobin> we would much rather leave completely cryptic scripts in dark corners of various places for one another to discover when we need to fix something
  145. # [14:38] <darobin> I do that to MikeSmith, like, all the time — it's fun!
  146. # [14:38] <ArtB> rofl
  147. # [14:39] <ArtB> darobin, is websockets the only web-platform-tests test suite that has a dependency server?
  148. # [14:40] <darobin> I could be forgetting about something, but I believe so
  149. # [14:40] <darobin> that said, we're talking about having a single server handle everything for WPT
  150. # [14:40] <ArtB> seems like it would be useful to have some type of 'the test suite require service X and if X isn't working, don't bother running the tests [and btw, to see if service X is running do Y]'
  151. # [14:40] <darobin> that way there's no need to worry about what's running or not, you just start the test server and get cranking
  152. # [14:41] <darobin> yeah, in fact it's not just server dependencies that need be handled there; right now some things require PHP, or Apache, or specific configurations
  153. # [14:41] * ArtB looks for the 'Start WebSocket Jetty Server' button ...
  154. # [14:41] <darobin> as it exists, the test suite is not trivially portable yet
  155. # [14:42] <darobin> at least not the bits that might rely on some form of specific server behaviour
  156. # [14:42] <darobin> we're fixing that
  157. # [14:42] <darobin> re jetty I have no idea how to start it, but ISTR MikeSmith saying earlier here that he'd get it started or something like that
  158. # [14:42] <ArtB> ok, thanks for that update [and I can see there are higher prio tasks …]
  159. # [14:43] <ArtB> btw, darobin, what's the status/plan for some type of automatic test runner?
  160. # [14:43] <ArtB> I think the old one is now obsolete?
  161. # [14:43] <darobin> wait... ArtB, in #wam MikeSmith said it was running again, no?
  162. # [14:43] <darobin> the old one is obsolete for sure
  163. # [14:43] <darobin> the problem is that the plan to get funding didn't work out
  164. # [14:43] <ArtB> yes, websockets server is now running
  165. # [14:43] <darobin> so tobie's on a plan b
  166. # [14:43] <ArtB> oh dear
  167. # [14:44] <ArtB> websockets has ~200 test files
  168. # [14:44] <ArtB> * 4 impls
  169. # [14:44] <ArtB> is a LOT of monkey work
  170. # [14:44] <darobin> I will need a runner pretty soon to start producing implementation reports for HTML anyway
  171. # [14:44] <darobin> so it wouldn't be surprising if I ended up just writing one
  172. # [14:44] * ArtB hears the crowd chanting Robin!, Robin!, Robin!
  173. # [14:45] <darobin> hahaha
  174. # [14:46] <ArtB> if you're looking for a `test bed`, please consider websockets ;-)
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  176. # [14:49] <darobin> I think my test bed will be HTML, but I'll keep that in mind :)
  177. # [14:54] <MikeSmith> ArtB: I'll try to work with Yves and darobin to just get some init scripts for the jetty server installed on the w3c-test.org
  178. # [14:55] <MikeSmith> so that when the server reboots or whatever, they'll just automatically restart
  179. # [14:55] <ArtB> excellent MikeSmith!
  180. # [14:56] <MikeSmith> part of the problem with that is though that by default they sorta need to be run under a screen instance to work correctly
  181. # [14:57] <ArtB> darobin, speaking of the old test runner, it might be useful to put some type Obsolete flag/warning @ http://w3c-test.org/framework/app/suite
  182. # [14:57] <MikeSmith> ArtB: anyway for now if you want to copy this down for next time to tell Yves or darobin if I'm not around, the script for running the echo server is at /opt/jetty/webapps/echo-test/00_run
  183. # [14:58] <MikeSmith> and there's a second thing that Microsoft contributed that's at /opt/jetty/webapps/control-test/00_run
  184. # [14:59] <MikeSmith> it's not clear to me whether any of the existing tests are actually using that "control" thing or not. But they asked me to set it up so I did
  185. # [15:01] <ArtB> MikeSmith, I created a "MikeSmith's How to start/run WebSockets Jetty Server Guide" -> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/webapps/20130807
  186. # [15:01] <MikeSmith> hahah :)
  187. # [15:01] <MikeSmith> ArtB you got the magic
  188. # [15:02] <ArtB> ;)
  189. # [15:06] <MikeSmith> for now I added that info to the /etc/motd on w3c-test.org
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  196. # [15:48] <Ms2ger> darobin, hmm? I've got a runner, if you want one
  197. # [15:49] <darobin> Ms2ger: yeah, looking at yours and deploying it on a w3c box if I like it was to be my first port of call :)
  198. # [15:49] <Ms2ger> darobin, it even has json and xml output :)
  199. # [15:49] <darobin> whoa!
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  201. # [15:53] <MikeSmith> it would be great to set up an instance of Ms2ger test runner
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  260. # [22:09] * Quits: divya (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  261. # [22:09] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@public.cloak) (sicking)
  262. # [22:11] * Joins: divya (~Adium@public.cloak)
  263. # [22:11] * Quits: divya (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  264. # [22:13] * Joins: divya (~Adium@public.cloak)
  265. # [22:25] * Quits: divya (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  266. # [22:27] * Joins: divya (~Adium@public.cloak)
  267. # [22:30] * Quits: karl (~karlcow@public.cloak) (":tiuQ tiuq sah woclrak")
  268. # [22:41] * Joins: chaals (~Adium@public.cloak)
  269. # [22:41] * Joins: divya1 (~Adium@public.cloak)
  270. # [22:42] * Quits: divya1 (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  271. # [22:43] * Joins: divya1 (~Adium@public.cloak)
  272. # [22:45] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  273. # [22:45] * Quits: divya (~Adium@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  274. # [22:49] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@public.cloak)
  275. # [22:50] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
  276. # [22:53] * Quits: chaals (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  277. # [22:56] * Quits: divya1 (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  278. # [22:57] * Joins: divya (~Adium@public.cloak)
  279. # [22:58] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  280. # [23:00] * Joins: chaals (~Adium@public.cloak)
  281. # [23:00] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
  282. # [23:14] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@public.cloak) ("nn")
  283. # [23:20] * Joins: tantek_ (~tantek@public.cloak)
  284. # [23:23] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@public.cloak) (sicking)
  285. # [23:24] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  286. # [23:24] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
  287. # [23:40] * Quits: chaals (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  288. # [23:58] * Quits: divya (~Adium@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  289. # [23:58] * Joins: divya (~Adium@public.cloak)
  290. # Session Close: Thu Aug 08 00:00:01 2013

The end :)