/irc-logs / w3c / #webapps / 2013-10-17 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Oct 17 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #webapps
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  59. # [13:47] <ArtB> chaals, yves, FYI, earlier today I made quite a few edits to WebApps' Charter (updates) wiki http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/Charter
  60. # [13:47] <ArtB> nice to see the Specs No Longer Active grow a bit
  61. # [13:47] <Yves> I see DOM4 and SelectorsV2 added, good :)
  62. # [13:52] <ArtB> Perhaps we should start a Call for Editors for URL spec and if we don't get any credible commitments, we drop that. Any thoughts from the `peanut gallery` on that?
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  64. # [13:53] <chaals> we did that and got an incredible editor...
  65. # [13:53] <chaals> err, non-credible.
  66. # [14:02] <MikeSmith> I propose that we just fork the real URL spec and then violate the spirit of the license
  67. # [14:02] <MikeSmith> ..under which it's being published
  68. # [14:03] <MikeSmith> byt republishing it under a W3C copyright that prevents anybody else from reusing it freely
  69. # [14:09] <ArtB> MikeSmith, spirit of which license? I thought whatwg.org specs permitted (encouraged?) forking.
  70. # [14:10] <Yves> spirit is not a legal construct
  71. # [14:17] <MikeSmith> ArtB: the spirit of the license is to permit the specs to be reused freely, not for them to republished under a claim of exclusive copyright
  72. # [14:18] <MikeSmith> but I say, hey who cares what the original editors of the specs think
  73. # [14:19] <MikeSmith> they are just the ones who did all the work
  74. # [14:19] <MikeSmith> and then unlike us were naive enough to place it under a free license
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  77. # [14:20] <ArtB> so if we were to do as you suggested earlier, what would recommend for attribution?
  78. # [14:21] <MikeSmith> I would recommend that we don't republish specs at the W3C under a non-free license and against the wishes of the people who wrote them
  79. # [14:22] <MikeSmith> oh wait no I mean we should
  80. # [14:22] <MikeSmith> of course
  81. # [14:22] <MikeSmith> because that's what we're doing
  82. # [14:22] <MikeSmith> so it can't be wrong
  83. # [14:22] <ArtB> oh, sorry; I thought your "I proposed that we …" above was serious; My Bad
  84. # [14:23] <MikeSmith> no, my bad
  85. # [14:24] <MikeSmith> or as they say in Tennessee, Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me, you can't get fooled again.
  86. # [14:25] <MikeSmith> ArtB: sorry for trolling. I'm not criticizing you personally
  87. # [14:26] <ArtB> NP; I didn't take anything you said personally
  88. # [14:27] <ArtB> I do think WebApps need to make a decision re URL i.e. what, if anything the group should do
  89. # [14:28] <ArtB> I guess we can queue it up for Shenzhen like we did in San Jose a few months ago but it doesn't appear there is anything more to say than "so, is anyone willing to actually do some work on URL?"
  90. # [14:29] <ArtB> and same for Fullscreen API
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  93. # [14:32] <MikeSmith> ArtB: peronsally I would seriously prefer that WebApps as a group Just Says No to further spec fragmenting
  94. # [14:33] <MikeSmith> tell the W3C we're getting out of the spec-copying business
  95. # [14:34] <jgraham> Right, I don't think it makes the W3C look good
  96. # [14:34] <MikeSmith> and force the reactionary wing of the membership to pull their heads out and support publishing at the W3C under a real free license
  97. # [14:35] <MikeSmith> jgraham: and more specifically it doesn't make the WebApps WG look good
  98. # [14:35] <jgraham> and to the extent that there are advantages to publishing things under the W3C brand, work together with people to achieve that rather than unilaterally forking their work and generating real confusion for people trying to actually implement this stuff
  99. # [14:35] <MikeSmith> and it makes it harder for us to atually get work done
  100. # [14:36] <gsnedders> And what does the W3C gain if it's spending its employees and member's time publishing an identical spec under a different header?
  101. # [14:36] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Which is sad, because in many other ways, WebApps is the functional working group
  102. # [14:38] <Yves> there are sad things all over the place, like the patent story on one side, the copyrght story on the other, add a pinch of religious beliefs and here we go
  103. # [14:38] <MikeSmith> jgraham: yeah, and it has been functional because of an understanding among the people who've actively been involved in it
  104. # [14:41] <ArtB> jgraham, re "work together with people to achieve …", do you have suggestions on how to accomplish this? My understanding is the W3C's Director and CEO and a bunch of others like PLH have been working on a mutual agreement
  105. # [14:41] <ArtB> I think the irony here is the various positions actually retards the evolution of the OWP
  106. # [14:41] <kennyluck> gsnedders, I think by putting new people on the editors' list, it increases that chance that the company of the Editor stays in W3C membership. It might also increase the chance of the Editor's contribution.
  107. # [14:43] <ArtB> too much wasted time defending turf and ideologies; the opportunity cost of this is quite high (IMHO)
  108. # [14:43] <ArtB> we could be discussing testing instead ;-)
  109. # [14:44] <jgraham> ArtB: I don't have specific suggestions, but what we have done so far doesn't work; we shouldn't keep doing it until we can figure out something better
  110. # [14:45] <ArtB> Well that says you think one position wins (keeps going) and the other stops. It seems like we should be working toward a win-win
  111. # [14:47] <jgraham> It says that I think the costs of the current approach are higher than the gains. Obviously I think that we should keep working out a solution that doesn't have the downsides of the current approach
  112. # [14:50] <ArtB> MikeSmith, jgraham, gsnedders - I hear you and I certainly `feel your pain`. I'm wondering if could be helpful to have this discussion during the Wednesday TPAC meeting.
  113. # [14:50] <ArtB> I think the Members should hear your position
  114. # [14:50] <gsnedders> ArtB: +1 for that, depsite not being there
  115. # [14:50] <ArtB> I can certainly talk about the issues related to WebApps
  116. # [14:50] <ArtB> and how work is blocked
  117. # [14:50] <jgraham> That might be useful, yes
  118. # [14:51] <gsnedders> (Hell, I don't think my invitied expert application ever got approved, so I don't think I'm a member of any WG now.)
  119. # [14:52] * ArtB doesn't recall an IE app from gsnedders for WebApps ...
  120. # [14:52] <gsnedders> ArtB: Nah, just for HTML.
  121. # [14:52] <gsnedders> ArtB: It seemed like effort for most other WGs.
  122. # [14:53] <gsnedders> (Honestly, I'm unlikely to spend much time on any W3C stuff anyway)
  123. # [14:53] <ArtB> ok
  124. # [14:53] <ArtB> jgraham, MikeSmith - the TPAC agenda on Wednesday does have a slot for Doc License although the context is HTMLWG
  125. # [14:54] <ArtB> http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2013
  126. # [14:59] <ArtB> Pro Tip: if you don't want to get a spec bogged down in Normative Reference Hell because of Web IDL, add this piece of text re Web IDL conformance:
  127. # [14:59] <ArtB> [[
  128. # [14:59] <ArtB> The IDL fragments in this specification must be interpreted as required for conforming IDL fragments, as described in the Web IDL specification.https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webperf/raw-file/tip/specs/UserTiming/Overview.html#WebIDL
  129. # [14:59] <ArtB> ]]
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The end :)