/irc-logs / w3c / #webapps / 2013-11-12 / end

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65. # [01:55] <ArtB> RRSAgent, bye
66. # [01:55] <RRSAgent> I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-webapps-actions.rdf :
67. # [01:55] <RRSAgent> ACTION: dimitri reply to Ryosuke's comments re Custom Element as part of LC comments [1]
68. # [01:55] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-webapps-irc#T01-57-35
69. # [01:55] <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow start a CfC to publish LCWD of DOM Parsing and Serialization [2]
70. # [01:55] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-webapps-irc#T01-59-39
71. # [01:55] <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow start CfC to publish PR of Progress Events [3]
72. # [01:55] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-webapps-irc#T09-10-17
73. # [01:55] <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow work with AvK and Jungkee re the Attribution of the Progress Events spec [4]
74. # [01:55] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-webapps-irc#T09-11-23
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78. # [01:56] <ArtB> zakim, this is webapps
79. # [01:56] <Zakim> ArtB, I see IA_WebApps()7:00PM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be webapps".
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82. # [01:57] <ArtB> zakim, this will be webapps
83. # [01:57] <Zakim> ok, ArtB; I see IA_WebApps()7:00PM scheduled to start 57 minutes ago
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85. # [01:57] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-irc
86. # [01:57] <ArtB> RRSAgent, this log will span midnight
87. # [01:57] <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'this log will span midnight', ArtB. Try /msg RRSAgent help
88. # [01:58] <ArtB> Meeting: WebApps F2F Meeting @ TPAC 2013
89. # [01:58] <ArtB> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/November2013Meeting#Agenda_Tuesday_November_12
90. # [01:58] <ArtB> Chair: Art, Chaals
91. # [01:58] <ArtB> ScribeNick: ArtB
92. # [01:58] <ArtB> Scribe: Art
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105. # [02:07] <Arno> Present+ Arnaud_Braud
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107. # [02:09] <ArtB> Present+ Art_Barstow, Charles_Nevile, Travis_Leithead, Adrian_Bateman, Eliot_Graff, Xiaoqian_Wu, Gary_Kacmarcik
108. # [02:10] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make log Public
109. # [02:10] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, ArtB
110. # [02:10] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
111. # [02:10] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
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114. # [02:11] <ArtB> zakim, call shenzhen
115. # [02:11] <Zakim> ok, ArtB; the call is being made
116. # [02:11] <Zakim> IA_WebApps()7:00PM has now started
117. # [02:11] <Zakim> +Shenzhen
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124. # [02:12] <ArtB> Present+ Adam_Boyet, Ryosuke_Niwa
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129. # [02:16] <ArtB> zakim, who's here?
130. # [02:16] <Zakim> On the phone I see Shenzhen
131. # [02:16] <Zakim> On IRC I see lmcliste_, seo, a12u, Dayang, jhmoon, hoyang, kawai, wyh, plh, xiaoqian, ijongcheol, cwdoh, tobie, kurosawa, RRSAgent, edoyle, Zakim, byungjung, johnny, dom, Lachy,
132. # [02:16] <Zakim> ... ArtB, Arno, glenn, Marcus_Altman___, Takahiro_, sgalineau, darobin
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146. # [02:18] <ArtB> Present+ Takayoshi_Kochi
147. # [02:18] * Parts: hoyang (~Adium@public.cloak) (hoyang)
148. # [02:18] <ArtB> Topic: Admin, Agenda Setting
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151. # [02:19] <ArtB> AB: this morning we will talk about Web Components
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153. # [02:20] <ArtB> … Dominic will join us from Mtn View
154. # [02:20] <ArtB> s/Dominic will join us/Dimitri will join us/
155. # [02:20] <ArtB> … and Dominc from Tokyo
156. # [02:21] <ArtB> … After the morning break we will talk about Testing and Interop
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158. # [02:21] <ArtB> Present+ Ted_OConnor
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160. # [02:21] <ArtB> AB: we will start Web Components @ 09:30
161. # [02:21] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
162. # [02:21] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
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164. # [02:22] <ArtB> Present+ Erika_Doyle_Navara
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168. # [02:23] <ArtB> Present+ Jonas_Sicking
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170. # [02:24] * ArtB waves to dglazkov - please dial in in 5 mins ;-)
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172. # [02:25] * rniwa is here
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182. # [02:30] * ArtB pings dglazkov Dimitri - please call zakim now ;)
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188. # [02:34] <dglazkov> trying...
189. # [02:35] * ArtB notes zakim is +1.617.761.6200 and PIN = 9274#
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191. # [02:35] * dglazkov this pass code is not valid
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195. # [02:36] <adrianba> zakim, code?
196. # [02:36] <Zakim> the conference code is 9274 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), adrianba
197. # [02:36] * Travis testing, testing...
198. # [02:36] <Travis> Scribe: Travis
199. # [02:36] <Travis> Scribenick: Travis
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201. # [02:36] * Travis dglazkov welcome!
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204. # [02:37] * dglazkov dialing *0 to see if an operator could help
205. # [02:37] <denis> zakim, room for 5?
206. # [02:37] <Zakim> ok, denis; conference Team_(webapps)01:37Z scheduled with code 26635 (CONF5) for 60 minutes until 0237Z
207. # [02:38] <Travis> Topic: Technical Difficulties...
208. # [02:38] <ArtB> denis, how do we get the Shenzhen conf room to attach to this new bridge?
209. # [02:38] <Zakim> + +1.650.397.aaaa
210. # [02:38] * Travis we hear you!
211. # [02:38] * dglazkov yay!
212. # [02:38] * Travis one small step for dglazkov
213. # [02:38] <denis> zakim, aaaa is dglazkov
214. # [02:38] <Zakim> +dglazkov; got it
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216. # [02:38] <Travis> Topic: Web Components
217. # [02:38] * dglazkov tried sip, but it was not workable
218. # [02:39] * Travis who's on the phone?
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220. # [02:39] * ArtB dimitr - is Dominic going to join?
221. # [02:39] <Travis> Zakim, +1.650 is dglazkov
222. # [02:39] <Zakim> sorry, Travis, I do not recognize a party named '+1.650'
223. # [02:39] * dglazkov no, he's on vacation
224. # [02:40] <Travis> Zakim, 1.650.397.aaaa is dglazkov
225. # [02:40] <Zakim> sorry, Travis, I do not recognize a party named '1.650.397.aaaa'
226. # [02:40] * Joins: lmcliste_ (~lmclister@public.cloak)
227. # [02:40] * Travis fine.
228. # [02:40] <denis> zakim, who's on the phone?
229. # [02:40] <Zakim> On the phone I see Shenzhen, dglazkov
230. # [02:40] <ArtB> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2013OctDec/0042.html
231. # [02:40] <Travis> ArtB: Please take a minute or two to give us a status update
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233. # [02:41] <Travis> dglazkov: Things are mostly unchanged.
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236. # [02:41] <Travis> ... custom elements have made pretty good progress--kinks worked out.
237. # [02:41] <Travis> ... next step is a CR-ready doc.
238. # [02:42] <Travis> ... the basics are there, everything else is additive.
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242. # [02:42] <Travis> ... Shadow DOM keeps going on--perhaps this year it can get to completion
243. # [02:43] <Travis> ... custom elements may provide something that is simple and good.
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246. # [02:43] <Travis> ... Shadow DOM has been taking over by ???, who is aligning with DOM4
247. # [02:43] <Travis> ... also switching it to ReSpec
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249. # [02:44] <Travis> ... I'm focusing on custom elements.
250. # [02:44] * dglazkov -> Shadow DOM: Hayato Ito
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252. # [02:44] * dglazkov Custom Elements: me
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255. # [02:44] * dglazkov HTML Imports: Hajime Morrita
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257. # [02:45] * Travis Shadow DOM: Hayato Ito
258. # [02:45] <ArtB> s/taking over by???/taking over by mailto:hayato@google.com/
259. # [02:45] * Travis ?
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262. # [02:46] * ArtB asks Dimitri if he can hear Ryosuke?
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264. # [02:46] * dglazkov I can hear ok
265. # [02:46] <Travis> ArtB: Switching over to ryosuki
266. # [02:46] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
267. # [02:46] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
268. # [02:47] <ArtB> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2013OctDec/0418.html -> Ryosuke's email
269. # [02:47] <Travis> Ryosuki: Highlights key points from email.
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271. # [02:47] <Travis> dglazkov: Reviewed the email today, and want to address each point, time might be short.
272. # [02:47] * MikeSmith suggests skype-ing Dmitri in if he can't hear
273. # [02:48] <Travis> ... sounds like you have the right motivation, but cutting out some pieces that we care about to. We want to build something that works in both cases: same origin and cross-origin.
274. # [02:48] <Travis> Ryosuki: we think the current design makes cross-origin use cases much harder.
275. # [02:49] <Travis> dglazkov: I think there are ways to do it (via Imports)
276. # [02:49] <rniwa> Travis: s/Ryosuki/Ryosuke/
277. # [02:49] <Travis> ... I think you're looking for encapsulation around shadow dom
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279. # [02:49] <Travis> ... mozilla researchers came up with an elegant solutions for +1 buttons with trusted/untrusted code.
280. # [02:50] <Travis> ... was hoping we'd taken everything we wrote down and make something good out of it.
281. # [02:50] <Travis> Ryosuki: our concern is with the specs going to last call.
282. # [02:50] <Travis> dglazkov: There is no changes to custom elements--these specs are all de-coupled.
283. # [02:51] <Travis> ... I responded to your proposal, and there is one thing I don't think we should do
284. # [02:51] <Travis> ... the callback proposal.
285. # [02:51] <ArtB> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2013OctDec/0436.html -> Dimitri's reply to Ryosuke
286. # [02:52] * Joins: richt (~richt@public.cloak)
287. # [02:52] <Travis> Ryosuki: Our concern is more about the HTML Imports; document.register, seems fine-no objections.
288. # [02:52] <Travis> dglazkov: This spec needs to cook a lot more.
289. # [02:53] <Travis> Ryosuki: let's chat about html imports
290. # [02:53] <Travis> Jonas: I have the same concern about how this runs script
291. # [02:54] <Travis> ... same concern as apple, that imports run scripts in importing docuement. Seems like same mistake with script tags
292. # [02:54] <Travis> ... it's security issue,
293. # [02:54] <Travis> ... but bigger problem is bad comm protocol.
294. # [02:54] * Joins: naka (~naka@public.cloak)
295. # [02:54] <Travis> ... this the impetus for ES6 modules pattern. We should reuse some of these ideas in Html imprts.
296. # [02:55] <Travis> dglazkov: You should raise this concern
297. # [02:55] * Travis sorry
298. # [02:55] * hober thinks he just raised it
299. # [02:56] <Travis> dglazkov: please raise the concern on the mailing list
300. # [02:56] <Travis> ... there there be dragons.
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304. # [02:56] <Travis> ... the polymer folks were starting to work on this, so they'll have more expertise.
305. # [02:56] <Travis> ... I can set general outcome expectations
306. # [02:57] <Travis> ... imports in same origin--originally we didn't want to run script at all.
307. # [02:57] <Travis> ... at first imports was like template only
308. # [02:57] <Travis> ... then it's changed.
309. # [02:57] <Travis> ... we a providing a good solution to a tricky problem
310. # [02:58] <Travis> Ryosuki: we're open to the idea of accessing global doc in imported doc.
311. # [02:58] <Travis> ... for same origin of course.
312. # [02:58] <Travis> ... the imported doc can execute any script by default doesn't play with x-origin case.
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315. # [02:58] <ArtB> s/Ryosuki/Ryosuke/
316. # [02:59] <Travis> ... with same origin component, you could use x-origin component with having to completely change the way it behaves.
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319. # [02:59] <slightlyoff> q+
320. # [02:59] * Zakim sees slightlyoff on the speaker queue
321. # [02:59] <Travis> dglazkov: I don't have a ready solution. Need to outline how to address it.
322. # [02:59] <ArtB> Present+ Alex_Russell
323. # [02:59] <Travis> ... with imports, you can add other imports (same or x-origin)
324. # [02:59] <Travis> ... we have some ideas.
325. # [03:00] <Travis> dglazkov: generally problem with imports...
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328. # [03:01] <Travis> ... version management was an issue for bootstrap people.
329. # [03:01] <Travis> ... I could do so much more--provide stylesheets for the document via imports.
330. # [03:01] <Travis> ... etc.
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333. # [03:01] <Travis> ... I could bring in all the scaffolding...
334. # [03:02] <Travis> ... as long as we provide a solution to these guys [bootstrap] then I'll be happy.
335. # [03:02] <Travis> slightlyoff: history context:
336. # [03:02] <Travis> ... imports work today unifies cross-and-same origin imports.
337. # [03:02] <Travis> ... they are the same
338. # [03:03] <Travis> ... just like script include
339. # [03:03] <Travis> ... and it can do what it likes.
340. # [03:03] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
341. # [03:03] <xiaoqian> q- slightlyoff
342. # [03:03] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
343. # [03:03] <Travis> ... this is how the web works.
344. # [03:03] <Travis> ... this is how Alex has a job.
345. # [03:03] * ArtB Dimitri - can you hear Alex ok?
346. # [03:03] * dglazkov yes!
347. # [03:03] * Quits: lgombos_ (~gombos@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
348. # [03:03] * hober is sad slightlyoff missed jonas' earlier comment
349. # [03:03] <Travis> ... we've thought about how web component system can create a security barrier.
350. # [03:03] * Quits: richt_ (~richt@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
351. # [03:03] <Travis> ... layout and script boundaries
352. # [03:04] <Travis> ... basically need what iframes offer.
353. # [03:04] <Travis> ... I think we can solve this orthogonally.
354. # [03:04] <Travis> ... shouldn't block web components.
355. # [03:04] <Travis> ... if we can decompose the essense of iframe separation, we likely can integrate a solution
356. # [03:04] <slightlyoff> note that I'm not arguing that iframes are the answer
357. # [03:05] <Travis> ryosuki: we thought about using seamless iframe for a solution
358. # [03:05] <Travis> ... except that with a lot of them...
359. # [03:05] * Quits: wyh (~wyh@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
360. # [03:05] * dglazkov yup. you got it, ryosuke
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363. # [03:05] <Travis> ... there are multiple (20-30 iframes)
364. # [03:05] <Travis> ... not a scalable solution.
365. # [03:05] * dglazkov that's the main problem
366. # [03:06] <Travis> ... with separate solutions for same origin and cross-origin
367. # [03:06] * Joins: mete (~mete@public.cloak)
368. # [03:06] <Travis> ... this is bad, we want one solution for both
369. # [03:06] * dglazkov of the x-origin use cases and iframes
370. # [03:06] <Travis> hober: to echo jonas
371. # [03:06] <MikeSmith> s/ryosuki/ryosuke/g
372. # [03:06] <Travis> ... we are leaning lessons doing modules
373. # [03:06] * Joins: glenn_ (~gadams@public.cloak)
374. # [03:06] <Travis> ... (from modules)
375. # [03:06] <MikeSmith> s/Ryosuki/Ryosuke/g
376. # [03:07] * Joins: naka (~naka@public.cloak)
377. # [03:07] <Travis> slightlyoff: I support the idea/goal
378. # [03:07] * dglazkov me too!!
379. # [03:07] <Travis> ... yes, iframes aren't scalable
380. # [03:07] <aboyet> s/leaning/learning/g
381. # [03:07] <Travis> ... mutual auth wrt global access seems reasonable
382. # [03:07] <Travis> ... we don't have ES6 modules yet.
383. # [03:07] <Travis> ... so it seems premature to design a system before this.
384. # [03:08] <Travis> ... I support the goals, etc., but we should revisit after we have ES6 modules
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386. # [03:08] <Travis> jonas: html imports are only in one browser
387. # [03:08] <Travis> slightlyoff: seems like an alignment with modules, so we should work on the one before the other.
388. # [03:08] <Travis> hober: no reason to gate one on the other, they both should just proceed.
389. # [03:09] <Travis> slightlyoff: I would want them ordered.
390. # [03:09] * dglazkov breaking up :-\
391. # [03:09] <hober> s/just proceed/proceed together/
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393. # [03:09] <Travis> ryusuke: we would like ES6 module + imports to be consistent with each other.
394. # [03:09] <Travis> ... I don't think we need to fully wait for one to wait on the other.
395. # [03:09] <Travis> slightlyoff: Yep. Agree
396. # [03:10] <Travis> ... TC39 process produces a completely integrated spec draft, after which it takes a little while to get to "rec"
397. # [03:10] <hober> expanding on that: as we work on both, we find and fix incompatibilities. no one is proposing that the platform should have incompatibles mechanism
398. # [03:10] <Travis> ... something closer to CR may be approximately early next year.
399. # [03:10] <Travis> ... I don't want to get too far ahead of this.
400. # [03:10] * Quits: Arno (~Arnaud@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
401. # [03:11] <Travis> ... we should consider imports with modules together.
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403. # [03:11] <Travis> ... let's avoid crazy vortexes.
404. # [03:11] <Travis> dglazkov: +1 on imports + module consistency
405. # [03:11] <Travis> hober: violent agreement.
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407. # [03:11] <Travis> ryosuke: our big concern was if html imports went forward today, we have big concerns with x-origin use cases.
408. # [03:12] <Travis> ... if things slow down, then we can make sure this is done right.
409. # [03:12] <Travis> dglazkov: We need to figure out what those x-origin issues are, merge them, and move forward.
410. # [03:12] <Travis> ... ryosuke: please drive this!
411. # [03:13] <Travis> jonas: I think module discussion and x-origin are unrelated
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413. # [03:13] <slightlyoff> so the other analogs are workers
414. # [03:13] <slightlyoff> and we don't have workers that have renderers
415. # [03:13] <Travis> ... want to figure out the x-origin story. Seems hard.
416. # [03:14] <Travis> ... whatever we create may seem a lot like iframes, or use a lot of the same primitives
417. # [03:14] <slightlyoff> so if we had a RenderWorker that had the ability to have some sort of DOM view to it, that'd be workable, but again, we don't have that infrastructure
418. # [03:14] <Travis> ... dosen't seem like a blocker (to me).
419. # [03:15] <Travis> dglazkov: Want to write down this proposal.
420. # [03:15] <Travis> ... sync with web app sec.
421. # [03:15] <Travis> ... should start looking at x-origin use cases.
422. # [03:15] <Travis> ryosuke: new topic (slighty)--templates
423. # [03:16] <Travis> ... chatted with rafael, etc.
424. # [03:16] <Travis> ... want to do mustache syntax in tempates.
425. # [03:16] <Travis> dglazkov: Seems just outside my scope.... may need to work with rafael.
426. # [03:17] <Travis> s/tempates/templates/
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428. # [03:17] <Travis> hober: You're comfortable addressing mustache syntax in templates?
429. # [03:17] <Travis> dglazkov: Yes, YES, YES!!!
430. # [03:17] * Joins: cabanier1 (~cabanier@public.cloak)
431. # [03:17] <Travis> ... very comfortable.
432. # [03:18] * Travis keeping it real.
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434. # [03:18] * hober enjoys Travis' creative scribing
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437. # [03:18] <Travis> dglazkov: I suspect that we'll hear that there isn't one way to do this
438. # [03:18] <Travis> ... (it'll be hard to land on "the right one")
439. # [03:19] <Travis> hober: not married to the double {{
440. # [03:19] * hober THANKS DIMITRI
441. # [03:19] <Travis> ryosuki: that's all
442. # [03:19] * dglazkov you're welcome
443. # [03:19] <Travis> Chaals: no further questions..
444. # [03:19] <Travis> ?
445. # [03:19] <Travis> dglazkov: Keep up the good work
446. # [03:19] <Zakim> -dglazkov
447. # [03:20] <rniwa> dglazkov: thanks!
448. # [03:20] <Travis> Travis: Microsoft hasn't looked in depth at this yet.
449. # [03:20] <Zakim> -Shenzhen
450. # [03:20] <Zakim> IA_WebApps()7:00PM has ended
451. # [03:20] <Zakim> Attendees were Shenzhen, +1.650.397.aaaa, dglazkov
452. # [03:21] * Travis tough to manage the long-distance relationship over the phone...
453. # [03:21] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
454. # [03:21] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
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457. # [03:22] <ArtB> Present+ Dimitr_Glazkov(phone)
458. # [03:22] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
459. # [03:22] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
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536. # [04:10] <aboyet> scribenick: aboyet
537. # [04:10] <ArtB> Scribe+ Adam
538. # [04:10] * Joins: chen (~chen@public.cloak)
539. # [04:10] <aboyet> TOPIC: Test Interopt
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541. # [04:11] <aboyet> artb: wanted to go through specs and what it's going to take to get to next steps
542. # [04:11] <aboyet> .. first one IndexDB
543. # [04:11] * Joins: AndroUser (~androirc@public.cloak)
544. # [04:11] <aboyet> … last college about 6 months ago, Alex agreed test facilitor for that spec
545. # [04:11] * Joins: mw2 (~mw2@public.cloak)
546. # [04:12] <aboyet> … have ~7 requests for IDB and not seemed to be reviewed yet, anybody give status of this?
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548. # [04:12] <aboyet> adrianba: believe the work alex has been doing is moved away from IDB, we'd be happy with help on it
549. # [04:13] * Quits: jehoochen__ (~jehoochen@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
550. # [04:13] <ArtB> ACTION: barstow find another Test Facilitator for IDB spec
551. # [04:13] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
552. # [04:13] * RRSAgent records action 1
553. # [04:13] <trackbot> Created ACTION-704 - Find another test facilitator for idb spec [on Arthur Barstow - due 2013-11-19].
554. # [04:13] <aboyet> artb: will record action to find test person
555. # [04:13] <aboyet> …. can anybody here to volunteer to help with the IDB testing effort ?
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557. # [04:13] <aboyet> … curious what mizilla's level of interest is for this
558. # [04:14] <myakura> s/mizilla/Mozilla/
559. # [04:14] <aboyet> … need to review PRs for IDB as well
560. # [04:14] <ArtB> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps-testsuite/2013Oct/0013.html -> IDB Pull Requests for tests
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563. # [04:14] <aboyet> … 4 diff pull request during test web forward paris event
564. # [04:15] <aboyet> …. first step for interop is to try to agree on the set of tests, until we get review then we don't have a basis
565. # [04:15] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
566. # [04:15] <aboyet> … really pleading to get people to step for review
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568. # [04:16] <aboyet> james: think there are some overlap in tests from microsoft tests and opera tests
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570. # [04:16] <aboyet> …. other submissions are smaller, so not as much as it looks like there
571. # [04:17] <aboyet> artb: thanks for clarification …. we need somebody as test facilitator for IDB, won't be able to move forward in interop until tests are reviews
572. # [04:17] <aboyet> … anything else (to the crowd)
573. # [04:18] <aboyet> TOPIC: Server Sent Events
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576. # [04:18] <aboyet> artb: not too far off from having 2 impls passing the tests, tina has done some good works in analyzing the failures
577. # [04:19] <aboyet> … so there are 5 test failures preventing from going to recommendation. from chrome and firefox
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580. # [04:20] <aboyet> james: it looks like there are some common failures … maybe it could be a change to the spec then to fix both of them but depends if failing for same reason so some sluething needs to occur, OK scratch all of that
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583. # [04:21] <aboyet> … it's an interaction with a second spec
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585. # [04:22] <aboyet> chaals: maybe small enough bugs or known bug from before
586. # [04:22] <aboyet> … just need to look in to the bugs an tina could provide more
587. # [04:22] <ArtB> ACTION: talk to Tina about how to make progress on SSE interop
588. # [04:22] * RRSAgent records action 2
589. # [04:22] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
590. # [04:22] <trackbot> Error finding 'talk'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/users>.
591. # [04:22] * Quits: Travis (~Travis@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
592. # [04:23] <aboyet> artb: what about the timeout one failing is actually a test case issue instead … will talk to tina about it
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594. # [04:23] <aboyet> james: have a feeling these were opera test originally … zzzz is around here could ask him
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596. # [04:24] <aboyet> artb: anything else on event source?
597. # [04:25] <aboyet> TOPIC: Web Messaging
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599. # [04:25] <aboyet> artb: have alex as test facilitator , adrian is alex able to help with this one ?
600. # [04:25] <aboyet> adrian: talked to chris, his opinion is we have a good enough set of test for web messaging an there is interop here.
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604. # [04:26] <aboyet> … while still some failures looks like there might be some need investigation
605. # [04:26] <aboyet> … propose give me action to talk to chris
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607. # [04:27] <ArtB> ACTION: bateman followup with KrisK re WebMessaging test results http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/Interop/WebMessaging
608. # [04:27] * RRSAgent records action 3
609. # [04:27] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
610. # [04:27] <trackbot> Created ACTION-705 - Followup with krisk re webmessaging test results http://www.w3.org/wiki/webapps/interop/webmessaging [on Adrian Bateman - due 2013-11-19].
611. # [04:27] <aboyet> artb: anymore ?
612. # [04:27] <aboyet> .. ok next up
613. # [04:27] <aboyet> TOPIC: Web Sockets
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615. # [04:28] <aboyet> artb: Kris is test faciliator i went ahead and ran these, some timeouts towards the end of the tests maybe a problem with the tests themselves
616. # [04:28] <aboyet> james: yeah, that looks wrong, the web sockets test have historically had issues there
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618. # [04:28] <aboyet> … suggest re-running tests to improve things
619. # [04:29] <aboyet> adrianba: may have some issues with network configs etc. proxy server
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622. # [04:30] <aboyet> … conclusion we had they were until there were changes to people impls there were issues that still needed to be addressed
623. # [04:30] <aboyet> … still a question about how importatn are those test in grand scheme
624. # [04:30] <aboyet> artb: what is reasonable next step?
625. # [04:31] <aboyet> … does it make sense to have Kris eval what is there and make a recommendation?
626. # [04:31] <aboyet> adrainba: don't think they are bogus, the opera tests added added additional coverage
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630. # [04:32] <aboyet> … one option would be to analyze the current coverage of the tests and what the failures are a resulting from
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632. # [04:33] <aboyet> james: think those results are misleading, just ran the tests on gecko and we are def. getting some passes where those results are getting timeouts
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634. # [04:34] <aboyet> … just for anybody looking at the screen and seeing red
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636. # [04:34] <aboyet> artb: would you be willing to update the gecko results?
637. # [04:35] <aboyet> james: yeah but there is a problem with running the secure tests so get timeout for anything that runs the ssl tests but can update for non-ssl tests
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639. # [04:35] <aboyet> artb: leaves somebody to run the chrome ones again, anybody from opera
640. # [04:35] <aboyet> mmm: yeah we could run them again
641. # [04:36] * aboyet ??? mmm ?
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643. # [04:36] <ArtB> ACTION: pieters run the Web Sockets tests and put results in http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/Interop/WebSockets
644. # [04:36] * RRSAgent records action 4
645. # [04:36] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
646. # [04:36] <trackbot> Created ACTION-706 - Run the web sockets tests and put results in http://www.w3.org/wiki/webapps/interop/websockets [on Simon Pieters - due 2013-11-19].
647. # [04:36] <ArtB> ACTION: bateman Run the web sockets tests and put results in http://www.w3.org/wiki/webapps/interop/websockets
648. # [04:36] * RRSAgent records action 5
649. # [04:36] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
650. # [04:36] <trackbot> Created ACTION-707 - Run the web sockets tests and put results in http://www.w3.org/wiki/webapps/interop/websockets [on Adrian Bateman - due 2013-11-19].
651. # [04:36] <ArtB> ACTION graham Run the web sockets tests and put results in http://www.w3.org/wiki/webapps/interop/websockets
652. # [04:36] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
653. # [04:36] <trackbot> Created ACTION-708 - Run the web sockets tests and put results in http://www.w3.org/wiki/webapps/interop/websockets [on James Graham - due 2013-11-19].
654. # [04:36] <aboyet> artb: anybody willing to run chrome tests?
655. # [04:37] <chaals> s/mmm: /richt: /
656. # [04:37] <ArtB> ACTION Run the web sockets tests and put results in http://www.w3.org/wiki/webapps/interop/websockets for Chrome
657. # [04:37] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
658. # [04:37] <trackbot> Error finding 'Run'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/users>.
659. # [04:37] <aboyet> richt: i'll talk to nnn about running chromium tests
660. # [04:37] <chaals> s/nnn/simonp/
661. # [04:37] <aboyet> TOPIC: Web Workers
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663. # [04:38] <aboyet> artb: have an interop table but not tests have been run it seems
664. # [04:38] <aboyet> … does any implementation implement ?
665. # [04:38] <aboyet> … if the answer is no then probably not worthwhile to run tests
666. # [04:39] <aboyet> james: i know gecko doesn't ….. i don't know about others
667. # [04:40] <aboyet> alex: not authoritative on this topic ….there are issues with some stuff but not aware of all of them
668. # [04:41] <aboyet> chaals: but does sound like worth running tests suite
669. # [04:41] <aboyet> … on chrome
670. # [04:41] <aboyet> artb: any volunteers to run it ?
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672. # [04:41] <aboyet> nikuko: I can run them
673. # [04:41] <myakura> s/nikuko/kinuko/
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676. # [04:42] <ArtB> ACTION: kinuko run the Workers tests on Chrome and put results in http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/Interop/WebWorkers
677. # [04:42] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
678. # [04:42] * RRSAgent records action 6
679. # [04:42] <trackbot> Error finding 'kinuko'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/users>.
680. # [04:42] * aboyet myakura thank you
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682. # [04:42] <aboyet> adrianba: feeling like ground hogs day on this
683. # [04:43] <aboyet> … it seems like almost every tpac we have this same conversation
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690. # [04:44] <aboyet> artb: a tpac or two ago, would need somebody to step up to do the editorial work
691. # [04:44] <aboyet> chaals: anybody think that would be a fun thing to do and use the delete key all over the spec
692. # [04:44] * myakura aboyet no probs ;)
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695. # [04:45] <ArtB> s/or two ago/or two ago I proposed the same thing and got bashed for it; /
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697. # [04:47] <aboyet> travis: volunteers to take that up
698. # [04:47] <ArtB> ACTION: travis remove the Shared Workers from the Workers spec
699. # [04:47] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
700. # [04:47] * RRSAgent records action 7
701. # [04:47] <trackbot> Created ACTION-709 - Remove the shared workers from the workers spec [on Travis Leithead - due 2013-11-19].
702. # [04:47] <aboyet> artb: it still makes sense to run the tests then
703. # [04:47] <aboyet> … thats all i had for interop and testing
704. # [04:48] <aboyet> chaals: gives travis some crazy bottle
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714. # [04:49] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
715. # [04:49] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
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718. # [04:50] <myakura> <br backat="1:30" />
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821. # [06:35] <ArtB> Topic: Testing
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823. # [06:35] <ArtB> AB: thanks James for leading this session!
824. # [06:36] <ArtB> Scribe+ ArtB
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826. # [06:36] <ArtB> ScribeNick: ArtB
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837. # [06:42] <ArtB> JG: this afternoon is mainly about testing
838. # [06:42] * Parts: csjung (~csjung@public.cloak) (csjung)
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840. # [06:42] <ArtB> … it's important for a number of reasons
841. # [06:42] <ArtB> … needed for advancement to REC
842. # [06:43] <ArtB> … but more importantly, we need tests to get the interop we want
843. # [06:43] * Joins: kawai (~kawai@public.cloak)
844. # [06:43] <ArtB> … deviations in impls means web devs hate us
845. # [06:43] * Joins: csjung (~csjung@public.cloak)
846. # [06:43] <ArtB> … and then they write native apps instead
847. # [06:43] <ArtB> … Although we have in WebApps some tests, we are having problems getting some tests reviewed
848. # [06:43] * Joins: lmcliste_ (~lmclister@public.cloak)
849. # [06:44] <ArtB> … and without review, the tests are not "accpeted"
850. # [06:44] <ArtB> … So, I'll take about Test Review this afternoon
851. # [06:44] <ArtB> [ James show slide re Reasons for Test Review ]
852. # [06:44] * Joins: myakura (~myakura@public.cloak)
853. # [06:44] <ArtB> JR: 1. Check tests are correct per spec
854. # [06:44] * Joins: yang (~yang@public.cloak)
855. # [06:45] <ArtB> … 2. Check tests are written robustly
856. # [06:45] <ArtB> … 3. Check for style issues that will make tests fragile or hard to run
857. # [06:45] <ArtB> … 4. Ensure tests are not using server-side script in a malicious way
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860. # [06:45] <ArtB> s/show slide re/shows slide regarding/
861. # [06:46] * Joins: johnny (~Android@public.cloak)
862. # [06:46] <ArtB> s/JR:/JG:/
863. # [06:46] * Joins: chaals (~Adium@public.cloak)
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866. # [06:47] <ArtB> JG: don't want someone from outside of W3C doing bad stuff like %rm -rf /
867. # [06:47] <ArtB> … I'll start with some tools for test review
868. # [06:47] <ArtB> … Re test review @ w3c
869. # [06:48] <ArtB> … Start by cloning web-platform-tests (on GH)
870. # [06:48] * Quits: adrianba (~adrianba@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
871. # [06:48] <ArtB> … We have many Pull Requests (PR) now
872. # [06:48] <ArtB> … The simplest tool is to use GH directly
873. # [06:48] <ArtB> … and just add a comment to a commit
874. # [06:49] * Joins: rniwa (~rniwa@public.cloak)
875. # [06:49] <ArtB> … GH can show raw diff
876. # [06:49] * Quits: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak) (jcraig)
877. # [06:49] * Quits: marcosc (~marcosc@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
878. # [06:49] <ArtB> … Just click on a line number and then add a comment
879. # [06:50] * Joins: glenn (~gadams@public.cloak)
880. # [06:50] <ArtB> … (Here's an example PR: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/63)
881. # [06:50] * Joins: seo (~seo@public.cloak)
882. # [06:50] <ArtB> … It's hard to know if a comment has been addressed
883. # [06:50] <ArtB> … Also hard to know if a review is complete or not
884. # [06:51] * Quits: TatsuyaIgarashi (~androirc@public.cloak) ("AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )")
885. # [06:51] <ArtB> … Although GH for code review is ok, it isn't always power enough, especially for more complicated reviews
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890. # [06:52] <ArtB> JR: we have the "Critic" tool or Opera Critic for reviews
891. # [06:52] <ArtB> … https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/home
892. # [06:53] <ArtB> … Opera created this because other code review tools were not sufficient for some uses
893. # [06:53] * Joins: joshpeek (~joshpeek@public.cloak)
894. # [06:53] * Joins: a12u (~androirc@public.cloak)
895. # [06:53] <ArtB> … it can be a bit intimidating at first
896. # [06:53] <ArtB> … Critic use GH credentials (via OAuth)
897. # [06:53] <ArtB> … It will try to complete a profile for you
898. # [06:54] * Joins: ijongcheol (~ijongcheol@public.cloak)
899. # [06:54] <ArtB> … At a minimum, need to fill in your email to get notifications
900. # [06:54] <ArtB> … For reviewers, can configure it so that it only shows reviews for those reviews of interest
901. # [06:54] <ArtB> … (unlike GH which has a very coarse notification system)
902. # [06:55] <ArtB> … Go to Filters and then Add filter to set selections
903. # [06:56] <ArtB> … < James shows a Critic review >
904. # [06:56] * Joins: kimwoonyoung (~kimwoonyoung@public.cloak)
905. # [06:56] * Joins: saki (~saki@public.cloak)
906. # [06:56] * Joins: taocai (~taocai@public.cloak)
907. # [06:57] <ArtB> … Even if you haven't created a filter, you can still submit a comment
908. # [06:57] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@public.cloak)
909. # [06:57] <ArtB> … One main advantage of Critic is that it says, on a per file and per commit basis, the percentage of the review that is complete
910. # [06:57] <ArtB> … it also tracks the review issues that still open
911. # [06:58] <ArtB> s/that still open/that are still open/
912. # [06:58] * Joins: kennyluck (~kennyluck@public.cloak)
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914. # [06:58] * Quits: Toshiya (~toshiya@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
915. # [06:59] <ArtB> … One question then is, how do I do the review?
916. # [06:59] <ArtB> … Can select the commit to review
917. # [07:00] * Quits: edoyle (~edoyle@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
918. # [07:00] <ArtB> … If a review has a bunch of commits, can select all of the commits and then see all of the proposed changes for the entire review
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920. # [07:00] * Quits: saki (~saki@public.cloak) ("")
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922. # [07:02] <ArtB> JG: If issues are raised, they must be closed before a PR can be merged/closed
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929. # [07:04] <ArtB> … when submitting a comment, can differentiate "Issues" from "Notes"
930. # [07:04] <ArtB> … It is also possible with Critic to make an Issue span more than one line of code
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936. # [07:05] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
937. # [07:05] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
938. # [07:06] <ArtB> JG: if someone wants to use Critic with a PR, please let me
939. # [07:06] * Joins: adrianba (~adrianba@public.cloak)
940. # [07:06] <ArtB> … I think it has significant advantages over GH's review feature
941. # [07:06] * Quits: johnny (~Android@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
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944. # [07:07] * Joins: aboyet (~Adium@public.cloak)
945. # [07:08] <ArtB> RN: is critic feedback sent to GH?
946. # [07:08] <ArtB> JG: no, think that would result in lots of e-mail
947. # [07:08] * Quits: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
948. # [07:09] <ArtB> RN: it would be nice if GH and Critic could sync
949. # [07:09] * Quits: igarashi (~androirc@public.cloak) ("AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )")
950. # [07:09] <ArtB> JG: that's possible but probably not trivial
951. # [07:09] * Joins: igarashi (~androirc@public.cloak)
952. # [07:09] <ArtB> … think it would result in an annoying amount of emails
953. # [07:09] <ArtB> … In practice, that hasn't been a problem so far
954. # [07:10] <ArtB> JG: those are the two tools for code review
955. # [07:10] <ArtB> … The next Q is, "what should I be looking for?"
956. # [07:10] <ArtB> … the TestTWF site has all of the appropriate docs
957. # [07:11] <aboyet> http://testthewebforward.org/
958. # [07:11] * Joins: jehoochen__ (~jehoochen@public.cloak)
959. # [07:11] * Joins: Eliot (~Eliot@public.cloak)
960. # [07:11] <ArtB> JG: < Displays Slide for Test Review Checklist >
961. # [07:12] <ArtB> … Use most specific assert possible
962. # [07:12] * Joins: rhauck2 (~Adium@public.cloak)
963. # [07:12] <rhauck2> http://testthewebforward.org/docs/
964. # [07:12] <ArtB> … Make it clear if there is an "Expected Failure"
965. # [07:13] <ArtB> … Dont use internal timeouts unless they are unavoidable. Prefer events
966. # [07:13] <ArtB> … Use idlharness.js where possible to check WebIDL-derived assertions
967. # [07:13] <ArtB> … External resources must not be used
968. # [07:13] <rhauck2> this checklist should be integrated here: http://testthewebforward.org/docs/review-checklist.html
969. # [07:13] <ArtB> … Check files don't have the executable bit set if not necessary
970. # [07:13] * Joins: rayberg__ (~rayberg@public.cloak)
971. # [07:14] * Quits: igarashi (~androirc@public.cloak) ("AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )")
972. # [07:14] <ArtB> … Ensure server-side code does not do anything malicious
973. # [07:14] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
974. # [07:14] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
975. # [07:15] <ArtB> ACTION: graham integrate Test Checklist with http://testthewebforward.org/docs/review-checklist.html
976. # [07:15] * RRSAgent records action 8
977. # [07:15] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
978. # [07:15] <trackbot> Created ACTION-710 - Integrate test checklist with http://testthewebforward.org/docs/review-checklist.html [on James Graham - due 2013-11-19].
979. # [07:15] * Joins: cwdoh (~cwdoh@public.cloak)
980. # [07:17] * Parts: Toshiya_ (~toshiya@public.cloak) (Toshiya_)
981. # [07:17] * rniwa gets 404 on http://testthewebforward.org/docs/review-checklist.html :(
982. # [07:17] <ArtB> … I've recently submitted a PR to remove PHP
983. # [07:17] * rniwa is also seeing 404 on http://testthewebforward.org/docs/
984. # [07:17] <rniwa> rhauck2: do you know what's happening there?
985. # [07:17] <ArtB> JG: < Code Style slide >
986. # [07:17] * Joins: jungkees_ (~jungkees@public.cloak)
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988. # [07:18] * Joins: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak)
989. # [07:18] <ArtB> … Avoid trailing whitespace
990. # [07:18] <ArtB> … Use sufficient whitespace to make sure that tests are differentiable
991. # [07:18] * Joins: mizuman (~mizuman@public.cloak)
992. # [07:18] <ArtB> … Prefer spaces to tabs
993. # [07:18] <ArtB> … Use Unix-style LF instead of Windows-style CR LF
994. # [07:18] <rhauck2> rniwa: oh dear - we had a great firewall problem with the site the other day in a different room
995. # [07:18] <ArtB> RN: can't these checks be automated?
996. # [07:18] <rhauck2> rniwa: maybe we're hitting it now here?
997. # [07:18] <ArtB> JG: yes, certainly in theory
998. # [07:19] <rniwa> rhauck2: i'm on VPN though
999. # [07:19] <rhauck2> rniwa: i'm currently vpn'ed in
1000. # [07:19] <rhauck2> rniwa: me too
1001. # [07:20] <rhauck2> rniwa: does staging work for you? http://www.testthewebforward-staging.org/docs/
1002. # [07:20] <ArtB> RN: perhaps Critic could automatically check some of these style issues
1003. # [07:20] <ArtB> JG: yes, it does for some stuff (like trailing WS)
1004. # [07:20] <rniwa> rhauck2: yup
1005. # [07:20] * Joins: Max_ (~Max@public.cloak)
1006. # [07:20] <rniwa> rhauck2: http://www.testthewebforward-staging.org/docs/review-checklist.html works too :D
1007. # [07:20] <rniwa> rhauck2: thanks!
1008. # [07:20] <rhauck2> ArtB: btw, cross logged the AI on the testtwf-website issue tracker: https://github.com/w3c/testtwf-website/issues/194
1009. # [07:21] * Joins: mizuman_ (~mizuman@public.cloak)
1010. # [07:21] <rniwa> rhauck2: is this some sort of a server issue?
1011. # [07:21] <rhauck2> rniwa: weird. whatup with Apple?
1012. # [07:21] <rhauck2> rniwa: no idea
1013. # [07:21] <ArtB> JG: it is possible to run all PRs directly
1014. # [07:21] <rniwa> rhauck2: oh, it's us :/ nm...
1015. # [07:21] <rhauck2> rniwa: works for me both on and off vpn
1016. # [07:21] * Quits: mizuman (~mizuman@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
1017. # [07:21] <rniwa> rhauck2: but i can access http://testthewebforward.org
1018. # [07:21] <ArtB> JG: f.ex. http://w3c-test.org/web-platform-tests/master/workers/
1019. # [07:21] <rniwa> rhauck2: only http://testthewebforward.org/docs/ is what i get 404 on
1020. # [07:22] <rhauck2> rniwa: (we fixed the great firewall problem when we discovered it the other day - had to do with a godaddy name server that was blocked in china)
1021. # [07:22] <ArtB> … this automated mirroring can cause probs f.ex. if a PR included bad php
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1026. # [07:22] <rhauck2> rniwa: what about stuff under /docs? like: http://testthewebforward.org/docs/testharness-tutorial.html
1027. # [07:23] <ArtB> … To get something mirrored to w3c-test.org/web-platform-tests/
1028. # [07:23] <ArtB> … if one isn't in the "special grou
1029. # [07:23] <rniwa> rhauck2: that one worked
1030. # [07:23] <rniwa> rhauck2: just http://testthewebforward.org/docs/review-checklist.html and http://testthewebforward.org/docs/ I guess
1031. # [07:23] <rhauck2> rniwa: weirdo man
1032. # [07:23] <ArtB> … group, then someone in that group needs to add a w3c-test:mirror comment to get the mirror to happen
1033. # [07:24] <rhauck2> rniwa: just the exact 2 pages we were talking about :)
1034. # [07:24] <rniwa> rhauck2: yeah :(
1035. # [07:24] * ArtB SMOP ;)
1036. # [07:24] <ArtB> JG: so that's all I had re the mechanics of Code Reviews
1037. # [07:24] * rniwa gets 404 on those two pages on both safari & chrome
1038. # [07:24] <ArtB> … there are now 127 Open PRs!
1039. # [07:24] <ArtB> … thus a backlog
1040. # [07:24] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
1041. # [07:25] <ArtB> RB: we got about 30 PRs during the TestTWF Shenzhen event on Nov 9
1042. # [07:25] <rniwa> rhauck2: huh, it started working now. so strange. thanks for the help
1043. # [07:25] <ArtB> AB: can we get a list of PRs for WebApps?
1044. # [07:26] * Joins: dopi (~dopi@public.cloak)
1045. # [07:26] <ArtB> RB: hmmmm
1046. # [07:27] <ArtB> JG: the answer is yes, but no URL
1047. # [07:27] * Quits: Max_ (~Max@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
1048. # [07:27] <ArtB> ACTION: barstow sent James a list of WebApps' test dirs in w-p-t
1049. # [07:27] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
1050. # [07:27] * RRSAgent records action 9
1051. # [07:27] <trackbot> Created ACTION-711 - Sent james a list of webapps' test dirs in w-p-t [on Arthur Barstow - due 2013-11-19].
1052. # [07:29] <ArtB> ArtB: we need review help with several PRs
1053. # [07:29] <ArtB> … especially IDB (we have 7 open PRs)
1054. # [07:29] <ArtB> … If anyone can commit to a review, please let me know
1055. # [07:30] <ArtB> JG: PR 379 is an important one too
1056. # [07:30] <ArtB> … if anyone can look at that, please let me know
1057. # [07:30] * Joins: myakura (~myakura@public.cloak)
1058. # [07:31] <ArtB> … platform
1059. # [07:31] <ArtB> … https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/379
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1065. # [07:34] <ArtB> JG: re PR379
1066. # [07:34] <ArtB> … need review some of the XHR tests
1067. # [07:34] <ArtB> … also NavigationTiming test need review
1068. # [07:35] <ArtB> PLH: I already submitted a PR for the NavTiming part of 379
1069. # [07:36] <ArtB> GH: need review of async tests
1070. # [07:36] <ArtB> … some Opera dnd tests
1071. # [07:36] <ArtB> … script scheduling tests (from O)
1072. # [07:36] <ArtB> … preload tests (expect Simon to review those)
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1080. # [07:39] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
1081. # [07:39] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
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1089. # [07:44] <ArtB> ArtB: here are some open PRs for WebApps
1090. # [07:44] <ArtB> … File API: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/53
1091. # [07:45] <ArtB> … IDB: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/63
1092. # [07:45] * Joins: tobie (tobie@public.cloak)
1093. # [07:45] <ArtB> … IDB: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/634
1094. # [07:46] <ArtB> … Shadow DOM: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/143
1095. # [07:47] <ArtB> … HTML Imports: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/178
1096. # [07:47] <ArtB> … Shadow DOM: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/194
1097. # [07:48] <ArtB> … Shadow DOM: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/278
1098. # [07:48] <ArtB> … File API: github
1099. # [07:48] <ArtB> … File API: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/279
1100. # [07:48] * Quits: hoyang (~Adium@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
1101. # [07:49] <ArtB> … File API: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/282
1102. # [07:49] <ArtB> … File API: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/283
1103. # [07:49] * Quits: dennisdmac (~dennisdmac@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
1104. # [07:49] <ArtB> … File API: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/284
1105. # [07:50] <ArtB> … EventSource: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/285
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1109. # [07:52] <ArtB> … File API: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/286
1110. # [07:52] <ArtB> … File API: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/2867
1111. # [07:52] <ArtB> … File API: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/2867
1112. # [07:53] <ArtB> … File API: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/286287
1113. # [07:53] <ArtB> AB: and more PRs for Web Apps …
1114. # [07:53] <ArtB> … File API: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/287
1115. # [07:54] <ArtB> … File API: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/288
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1118. # [07:54] <ArtB> … File API: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/289
1119. # [07:54] <ArtB> … File API: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/290
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1122. # [07:54] <ArtB> … File API: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/291
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1126. # [07:55] <ArtB> … File API: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/293
1127. # [07:55] <ArtB> … Progress Events: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/294
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1133. # [07:59] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
1134. # [07:59] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
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1218. # [08:40] * abarsto is now known as ArtB
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1225. # [08:45] <ArtB> Topic: Writing Tests
1226. # [08:45] * Quits: marcosc (~marcosc@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
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1230. # [08:45] <ArtB> JG: I'm not sure what we want to try to accomplish in this session
1231. # [08:45] * Joins: mizuman (~mizuman@public.cloak)
1232. # [08:45] <ArtB> … We are getting more contributinos
1233. # [08:46] * Quits: cwdoh (~cwdoh@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
1234. # [08:46] <ArtB> … If anyone has specific questions about "how to test X", I can work with them 1:1
1235. # [08:46] * Quits: adrianba (~adrianba@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
1236. # [08:46] <aboyet> http://testthewebforward.org/docs/
1237. # [08:46] <ArtB> … A new exciting resource is testthewebforward.org
1238. # [08:46] * Joins: cwdoh (~cwdoh@public.cloak)
1239. # [08:46] <ArtB> … Having public events
1240. # [08:46] * Quits: richt (~richt@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
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1242. # [08:46] * Joins: csjung (~csjung@public.cloak)
1243. # [08:46] <ArtB> … to write tests
1244. # [08:46] * Quits: mizuman (~mizuman@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
1245. # [08:46] * Quits: xiaoqian (xiaoqian@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
1246. # [08:46] <ArtB> … to improve interop
1247. # [08:46] * Joins: mizuman (~mizuman@public.cloak)
1248. # [08:46] <ArtB> … It has become the "overall" name for W3C Testing Effort
1249. # [08:46] <ArtB> … which is great [to have that brand]
1250. # [08:47] * Joins: richt (~richt@public.cloak)
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1252. # [08:47] * Quits: Toshiya (~toshiya@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
1253. # [08:47] <ArtB> … The site has lots of docs for tasks about writing tests
1254. # [08:47] <ArtB> … Rebecca is the expert
1255. # [08:47] * Joins: jjj (~Android@public.cloak)
1256. # [08:47] <ArtB> … and she is hosting a session about the Future of TestTWF tomorrow
1257. # [08:47] * Quits: mizuman (~mizuman@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
1258. # [08:48] <ArtB> … Our test repo is GitHub (GH)
1259. # [08:48] * Joins: mizuman (~mizuman@public.cloak)
1260. # [08:48] <ArtB> … Need to start with git and how to submit tests
1261. # [08:48] * Quits: timeless (~uid4015@public.cloak) ("Connection closed for inactivity")
1262. # [08:48] <ArtB> … The TestTWF tutorial is great
1263. # [08:48] * Joins: kawai (~kawai@public.cloak)
1264. # [08:49] <ArtB> … And one can always ask Q's in W3C's #testing or #webapps IRC channels
1265. # [08:49] * Quits: kimwoonyoung (~kimwoonyoung@public.cloak) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
1266. # [08:49] <ArtB> … As of today, there are 3 types of tests
1267. # [08:49] <ArtB> … 1. JavaScript
1268. # [08:49] <ArtB> … uses testharness.js
1269. # [08:49] <ArtB> … I can help anyone with the harness
1270. # [08:49] <ArtB> … 2. RefTests - for testing rendering
1271. # [08:50] <ArtB> … relevant f.ex. for CSS
1272. # [08:50] <ArtB> … could be needed by WebApps, f.ex. if the test has some "display"
1273. # [08:50] * Joins: yywu (~yywu@public.cloak)
1274. # [08:50] <ArtB> … Instead of just creating one test, need a second file
1275. # [08:50] <ArtB> … that serves as the "reference"
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1277. # [08:51] <ArtB> … This allows Pass/Fail based on comparing both files
1278. # [08:51] <ArtB> … 3. Manual Tests
1279. # [08:51] <ArtB> … we try to avoid these because they are costly
1280. # [08:51] <ArtB> … f.ex. time consuming to run
1281. # [08:51] * Quits: tobie (tobie@public.cloak)
1282. # [08:51] <ArtB> … Only want those if #1 or #2 can't be used
1283. # [08:52] * Quits: lmcliste_ (~lmclister@public.cloak) ("")
1284. # [08:52] <ArtB> … Also in the future expect to accept Web Driver tests
1285. # [08:52] <ArtB> … allows driving the browser externally
1286. # [08:52] <ArtB> … < James introduces David Burns (DB) >
1287. # [08:53] * Joins: mizuman_ (~mizuman@public.cloak)
1288. # [08:53] <ArtB> DB: I co-edit Web Driver spec
1289. # [08:53] <ArtB> … allows automated driving the browser simulating a user
1290. # [08:53] <ArtB> … we aren't "stuck" in JavaScript
1291. # [08:53] * Quits: cwdoh (~cwdoh@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
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1293. # [08:53] * Joins: denis (denis@public.cloak)
1294. # [08:53] <ArtB> … We can do trusted events (e.g. logging into a specific service)
1295. # [08:54] <ArtB> s/JavaScript/JavaScript sandbox/
1296. # [08:54] * Quits: richt (~richt@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
1297. # [08:54] <ArtB> DB: < gives a demo … >
1298. # [08:54] <aboyet> http://www.w3.org/TR/webdriver/
1299. # [08:54] <ArtB> DB: Web Driver starts the browser, sets default config
1300. # [08:55] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
1301. # [08:55] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
1302. # [08:55] <ArtB> … we can then do things like navigate to URLs
1303. # [08:55] <ArtB> … can use Python, C#, Ruby and a couple of others
1304. # [08:55] * Joins: yywu (~yywu@public.cloak)
1305. # [08:55] <ArtB> … FB has PHP version
1306. # [08:55] * Joins: Jirka (~jirka@public.cloak)
1307. # [08:55] * Quits: Qian (~Qian@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
1308. # [08:56] <ArtB> … anyone can write a language binding (spec says how to do so)
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1312. # [08:57] <ArtB> … can execute arbitrary JS
1313. # [08:57] * Quits: jungkees_ (~jungkees@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
1314. # [08:57] <ArtB> … the JS is sandboxed
1315. # [08:58] <ArtB> DB: we also have advanced user interactions
1316. # [08:58] <ArtB> … f.ex. shift+letter+mouse_drag can be done
1317. # [08:58] <ArtB> … really nice for doing things outside of a JS test framework
1318. # [08:58] <ArtB> AB: nice!
1319. # [08:59] <ArtB> DB: implemented in FFox, Chome and Opera
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1322. # [08:59] <ArtB> … we use it to test FFOS
1323. # [08:59] <ArtB> … We also allow it access browser chrome
1324. # [09:00] * Joins: a12u (~androirc@public.cloak)
1325. # [09:00] <ArtB> s/allow it/allow it to/
1326. # [09:00] * Joins: Takahiro (~takahiro@public.cloak)
1327. # [09:00] <ArtB> … If testharness.js doesn't fit, please try Web Driver
1328. # [09:00] <ArtB> … There is interest from other browser vendors
1329. # [09:00] * Quits: kawai (~kawai@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
1330. # [09:01] <ArtB> Travis: there is a 3rd party soln for IE
1331. # [09:01] <ArtB> DB: we hope all browser vendors will implement it
1332. # [09:01] <ArtB> … Please let me know if you want to chat about Web Driver or get some demos
1333. # [09:02] * Joins: mizuman (~mizuman@public.cloak)
1334. # [09:02] <ArtB> JG: one change that is coming soon for WPT is a self-contained Python environment
1335. # [09:02] <ArtB> … and that means dropping PHP
1336. # [09:03] <ArtB> … thinks this will make some tests easier to write
1337. # [09:03] <ArtB> s/thinks this/think this/
1338. # [09:03] <ArtB> … This eliminates installing some 3rd party stuff
1339. # [09:04] <ArtB> … Now have to clone the repo, install several packages, edit a host file
1340. # [09:04] * Quits: plh (plehegar@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
1341. # [09:04] <ArtB> … But with the changes, just run one Python script
1342. # [09:05] <ArtB> … and then access the tests via a browser
1343. # [09:05] <ArtB> … (f.ex. web-platform-test:8000/websockets/)
1344. # [09:06] * Joins: taocai (~taocai@public.cloak)
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1346. # [09:06] <ArtB> … So can run the test suite locally
1347. # [09:06] <ArtB> Travis: Sweet!
1348. # [09:06] <ArtB> JG: script is on GH
1349. # [09:06] * Joins: cwdoh (~cwdoh@public.cloak)
1350. # [09:06] <ArtB> … as well as the README file
1351. # [09:07] <ArtB> … If you need a complex test (e.g. multiple domains or ports), might need ServerSide.md
1352. # [09:07] <ArtB> s/might need/might need to read/
1353. # [09:07] <ArtB> … There is also a "Pipes" feature
1354. # [09:08] * Quits: mizuman_ (~mizuman@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
1355. # [09:08] * Quits: glenn (~gadams@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
1356. # [09:08] <ArtB> … they can be used to do things like changing headers
1357. # [09:08] * Joins: glenn (~gadams@public.cloak)
1358. # [09:08] <ArtB> … Useful for XHR testing (e.g. if need to wait for the file to get loaded)
1359. # [09:09] * Quits: nkic (~nkic@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
1360. # [09:09] <ArtB> … Instead of hardcoding domains or ports, use the templates syntax
1361. # [09:10] <ArtB> … and the replacement will occur (i.e. template resolved) when the tests are run
1362. # [09:10] <myakura> s/ServerSide/server-side/
1363. # [09:10] * Quits: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
1364. # [09:11] <ArtB> JG: we have "asis" file support
1365. # [09:11] * Joins: glenn_ (~gadams@public.cloak)
1366. # [09:11] <ArtB> … and can also script the server via .py files
1367. # [09:11] <ArtB> … < see "py files" in the documentation >
1368. # [09:12] * Quits: johnny (~Android@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
1369. # [09:12] * myakura JG explaining features over showing https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/blob/jgraham/python_review_2/server-side.md
1370. # [09:12] <ArtB> JG: the documentation includes some examples
1371. # [09:12] <ArtB> … https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/blob/jgraham/python_review_2/server-side.md
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1373. # [09:13] * ArtB thanks myakura ;)
1374. # [09:13] * Quits: Yudong (~Yudong@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
1375. # [09:13] <ArtB> < Applause for James! >
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1379. # [09:14] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
1380. # [09:14] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
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1440. # [09:58] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
1441. # [09:58] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
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1624. # [17:22] * Quits: mizuman (~mizuman@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
1625. # [17:25] * Quits: smaug (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
1626. # [17:26] * Quits: cwdoh (~cwdoh@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
1627. # [17:26] * Quits: Zeke_ (~Zeke@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
1628. # [17:33] * Joins: cwdoh (~cwdoh@public.cloak)
1629. # [17:50] * Joins: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak)
1630. # [17:54] * Quits: ken (~ken@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
1631. # [17:54] * Joins: ken (~ken@public.cloak)
1632. # [17:59] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@public.cloak) ("My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…")
1633. # [18:01] * Quits: ken (~ken@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
1634. # [18:02] * Joins: myakura (~myakura@public.cloak)
1635. # [18:03] * Joins: masatakayakura (~myakura@public.cloak)
1636. # [18:09] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
1637. # [18:11] * Joins: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak)
1638. # [18:12] * Joins: rhauck2 (~Adium@public.cloak)
1639. # [18:12] * Quits: rhauck1 (~Adium@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
1640. # [18:17] * Quits: lgombos (~gombos@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
1641. # [18:18] * Quits: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
1642. # [18:25] * Joins: ken (~ken@public.cloak)
1643. # [18:36] * Quits: ken (~ken@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
1644. # [18:38] * Joins: lgombos (~gombos@public.cloak)
1645. # [18:42] * Joins: smaug (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
1646. # [18:48] * Joins: chaals (~Adium@public.cloak)
1647. # [19:01] * Quits: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak) (jcraig)
1648. # [19:04] * Quits: masatakayakura (~myakura@public.cloak) ("")
1649. # [19:18] * Joins: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak)
1650. # [19:30] * Quits: chaals (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
1651. # [20:00] * Quits: cwdoh (~cwdoh@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
1652. # [20:04] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@public.cloak)
1653. # [20:30] * Joins: ken (~ken@public.cloak)
1654. # [20:37] * Quits: ken (~ken@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
1655. # [20:37] * Quits: rhauck2 (~Adium@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
1656. # [20:45] * Quits: lgombos (~gombos@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
1657. # [20:50] * Joins: cwdoh (~cwdoh@public.cloak)
1658. # [20:54] * Quits: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak) (jcraig)
1659. # [21:14] * Joins: lgombos (~gombos@public.cloak)
1660. # [21:20] * Quits: cwdoh (~cwdoh@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
1661. # [21:30] * Joins: ken (~ken@public.cloak)
1662. # [21:38] * Quits: ken (~ken@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
1663. # [22:01] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (tantek)
1664. # [22:06] * Joins: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak)
1665. # [22:07] * Joins: glenn_ (~gadams@public.cloak)
1666. # [22:07] * Quits: glenn (~gadams@public.cloak) (glenn)
1667. # [22:20] * Quits: glenn_ (~gadams@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
1668. # [22:20] * Joins: glenn (~gadams@public.cloak)
1669. # [22:26] * Joins: glenn_ (~gadams@public.cloak)
1670. # [22:26] * Quits: glenn (~gadams@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
1671. # [22:28] * Quits: davidb (~davidb@public.cloak) (davidb)
1672. # [22:31] * Joins: ken (~ken@public.cloak)
1673. # [22:38] * Quits: ken (~ken@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
1674. # [23:09] * Quits: karl (~karlcow@public.cloak) (":tiuQ tiuq sah woclrak")
1675. # [23:12] * Quits: marcosc (~marcosc@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
1676. # [23:13] * Quits: adrianba (~adrianba@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
1677. # [23:15] * Joins: lgombos_ (~gombos@public.cloak)
1678. # [23:15] * Quits: lgombos (~gombos@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
1679. # [23:15] * Quits: lgombos_ (~gombos@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
1680. # [23:15] * Joins: lgombos (~gombos@public.cloak)
1681. # [23:16] * Joins: nsakai (~nsakai@public.cloak)
1682. # [23:16] * Quits: nsakai (~nsakai@public.cloak) ("")
1683. # [23:21] * Joins: cwdoh (~cwdoh@public.cloak)
1684. # [23:26] * Quits: cwdoh (~cwdoh@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
1685. # [23:30] * Quits: smaug (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
1686. # [23:32] * Joins: ken (~ken@public.cloak)
1687. # [23:39] * Quits: ken (~ken@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
1688. # [23:51] * Joins: mizuman (~mizuman@public.cloak)
1689. # [23:58] * Quits: mizuman (~mizuman@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
1690. # [23:58] * Joins: marcosc (~marcosc@public.cloak)
1691. # Session Close: Wed Nov 13 00:00:00 2013

The end :)