/irc-logs / w3c / #webapps / 2013-12-04 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Dec 04 00:00:01 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #webapps
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  24. # [01:56] <kochix> Morning, nakano-san
  25. # [01:56] <masayuki> kochix: Hi, good morning
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  28. # [02:04] <Travis> Zakim, this is DOM3
  29. # [02:04] <Zakim> ok, Travis; that matches RWC_WAPI(D3E)8:00PM
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  31. # [02:04] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/12/04-webapps-irc
  32. # [02:05] <Travis> Zakim, this meeting spans midnight
  33. # [02:05] <Zakim> I don't understand 'this meeting spans midnight', Travis
  34. # [02:05] <Travis> rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight
  35. # [02:05] <RRSAgent> ok, Travis; I will not start a new log at midnight
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  37. # [02:05] <Travis> Present+ Travis_Leithead
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  43. # [02:07] <Travis> hi folks!
  44. # [02:07] <masayuki> Hello, Travis
  45. # [02:07] * Joins: kochix (~kochix@public.cloak)
  46. # [02:08] <kochix> muted mine
  47. # [02:08] <Travis> Agenda+ Talk about preparing for LC
  48. # [02:08] * Zakim notes agendum 1 added
  49. # [02:09] <Zakim> + +1.425.893.aabb
  50. # [02:09] <Travis> Gary present?
  51. # [02:09] <garykac> Hallo
  52. # [02:09] <Travis> Zakim, +1.425 is garykac
  53. # [02:09] <Zakim> +garykac; got it
  54. # [02:09] <Travis> Present+ garykac
  55. # [02:10] <Travis> Present+ masayuki
  56. # [02:10] <Travis> Present+ kochix
  57. # [02:10] <Travis> a?
  58. # [02:10] <Travis> agenda?
  59. # [02:10] * Zakim sees 1 item remaining on the agenda:
  60. # [02:10] * Zakim 1. Talk about preparing for LC [from Travis]
  61. # [02:10] <Travis> agenda+ bug review?
  62. # [02:10] * Zakim notes agendum 2 added
  63. # [02:10] <garykac> lgtm
  64. # [02:10] <Travis> More items to add to the agenda?
  65. # [02:11] <Travis> agenda-
  66. # [02:11] <Travis> zakim, first agenda item
  67. # [02:11] <Zakim> I don't understand 'first agenda item', Travis
  68. # [02:11] * Travis well, we have them listed anyway...
  69. # [02:11] <masayuki> I'd like to discuss https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23908 today.
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  72. # [02:12] <Travis> agenda+ bug 23908 (key value of printable keys w/meta)
  73. # [02:12] * Zakim notes agendum 3 added
  74. # [02:13] <Travis> agenda- 1
  75. # [02:13] * Zakim notes agendum 1, Talk about preparing for LC, dropped
  76. # [02:14] <Travis> Our co-chair has informed us that we can publish again in december up until the 7th.
  77. # [02:14] <Travis> ... after that there is an end-of-year blackout for publishing stuff.
  78. # [02:14] <Travis> ... If we want to get a LC out for our D3E spec, we must be ready to do so quickly.
  79. # [02:15] <Travis> ... I see 19 bugs open in bugzilla for our component
  80. # [02:15] <Travis> ... https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?component=DOM3%20Events&list_id=30204&product=WebAppsWG&;resolution=---
  81. # [02:15] <garykac> Well...
  82. # [02:15] <garykac> I merged in all of the stuff from UI Events
  83. # [02:15] <garykac> So we have a first draft of all that.
  84. # [02:16] <garykac> Most of the remaining bugs seem minor (I think)
  85. # [02:16] <garykac> We should go through them to see which ones require discussion so that we can resolve them now.
  86. # [02:16] <garykac> I think we'd need to "sign off" by this Friday for this to be possible.
  87. # [02:16] <garykac> And
  88. # [02:16] <garykac> I would like it if people could review the sections that have changed
  89. # [02:17] <garykac> Namely: the keyboard layout section
  90. # [02:17] <garykac> and the updated initialization/constructor stuff
  91. # [02:17] <Travis> I think if it's just the 4 of us that should agree that we'd be ready by friday, then we could probably all do a review in the next few days.
  92. # [02:18] <garykac> I'll be going though it again as well.
  93. # [02:18] <garykac> Because while I "wrote" it, a lot of the recent changes were merging the old text with the new text.
  94. # [02:19] <Travis> masayuki: and kochix: what do you think?
  95. # [02:19] <garykac> I want to make sure that the text flows nicely.
  96. # [02:19] <garykac> and that there isn't anything obvious missing.
  97. # [02:19] <garykac> We'll probably need to start an email thread in order to track these issues this week.
  98. # [02:20] <kochix> CompositionEvent looks good
  99. # [02:20] <Travis> kochix: Believes what he have now is OK.
  100. # [02:20] <Travis> s/he/we
  101. # [02:20] <garykac> Updated section: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/dom3events/raw-file/tip/html/DOM3-Events.html#keys
  102. # [02:20] <Travis> agenda?
  103. # [02:20] * Zakim sees 2 items remaining on the agenda:
  104. # [02:20] * Zakim 2. bug review? [from Travis]
  105. # [02:20] * Zakim 3. bug 23908 (key value of printable keys w/meta) [from Travis]
  106. # [02:20] <Travis> agenda- 2
  107. # [02:20] * Zakim notes agendum 2, bug review?, dropped
  108. # [02:21] <Travis> Let's do a quick scan of the existing bugs. Perhaps we can knock out a few.
  109. # [02:21] <Travis> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22073
  110. # [02:21] <Travis> garykac: I have notes on this...
  111. # [02:21] <masayuki> I'm still reading the new ED carefully, and I'm filing issues on bugzilla.
  112. # [02:21] <Travis> masayuki: excellent.
  113. # [02:22] <garykac> For 22073, we discussed this in Tokyo.
  114. # [02:22] <masayuki> So, I'm still not sure if current ED is enough for LC.
  115. # [02:23] * Joins: lgombos__ (~gombos@public.cloak)
  116. # [02:23] <Travis> garykac: It would be nice to get this out in December, but there's always Jan.
  117. # [02:24] <Travis> masayuki: Meaning there are still bugs to file, right?
  118. # [02:24] <garykac> It would be nice to resolve all the bugs before doing another LC.
  119. # [02:24] <Travis> I agree.
  120. # [02:24] <garykac> I think that we're in good shape to hit early January.
  121. # [02:24] <masayuki> Travis: I think so.
  122. # [02:24] <garykac> And I would feel more comfortable giving the text more time to be reviewed for typos and readability.
  123. # [02:24] <Travis> Then perhaps we shouldn't be too agressive to finish this week.
  124. # [02:24] <garykac> sgtm
  125. # [02:25] <garykac> We should let Arthur know
  126. # [02:25] <Travis> I can do that.
  127. # [02:25] <garykac> We should ask for the first available date in Jan.
  128. # [02:25] <kochix> ah, one thing, please remove 2 references to 'inputmode' in beforeinput event.
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  130. # [02:27] <garykac> There were only 2 references to inputmode?
  131. # [02:27] <kochix> I think so,
  132. # [02:27] <kochix> in 'beforeinput' and 'input' tables, 2 references of 'with inputmode set'
  133. # [02:28] <garykac> Refresh the ED - I've updated the spec to remove these.
  134. # [02:28] <kochix> thanks
  135. # [02:29] <Travis> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23167
  136. # [02:29] <Travis> garykac: <fixing easy bugs as we speak>
  137. # [02:29] <Travis> ... 23912 fixed.
  138. # [02:30] <garykac> For the TV keys...
  139. # [02:30] <garykac> We may want to move those into UI Events (or some other doc)
  140. # [02:31] <garykac> We're going to try to make a stab at it, but it is really complex and we'll likely have to release a follow-up document as well.
  141. # [02:32] <garykac> But we can probably add a 'TV' key now, but getting all the other TV remote keys is not likely.
  142. # [02:33] <Travis> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23186
  143. # [02:33] <garykac> I've already updated to spec to add "If non-null"
  144. # [02:34] <garykac> ms2ger says that current implementations currently allow null and don't throw an exception.
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  146. # [02:35] <garykac> So this is really documenting the current state of affairs with browsers.
  147. # [02:36] <Travis> ms2ger's tests show that these apis always succeed (even if null is passed)
  148. # [02:37] <Travis> ... where "these apis" mean addeventlistener and removeeventlistener
  149. # [02:37] <Travis> garykac: is pushing a change out to address this now.
  150. # [02:38] <garykac> Fix for 23186 has been pushed.
  151. # [02:38] <Travis> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23257
  152. # [02:40] <Travis> I closed it.
  153. # [02:40] <Travis> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23258
  154. # [02:40] <garykac> Travis is closing this bug because the events have changed a lot recently
  155. # [02:41] <Travis> I resolved mine won't fix.
  156. # [02:41] <Travis> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23748
  157. # [02:41] <kochix> ok, i'll revisit 23258.
  158. # [02:41] <Travis> garykac: I will be fixing this, but haven't got to it yet.
  159. # [02:41] <garykac> I'll be fixing 23748 to refer to the table.
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  161. # [02:42] <Travis> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23750
  162. # [02:42] <garykac> We discussed that (ScrollLock) in Tokyo and Nakano-san convinced me that it makes sense to add it as a modifier.
  163. # [02:42] <Travis> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23886
  164. # [02:43] <Travis> masayuki: in comment 1, you refer to "example 30"
  165. # [02:43] <Travis> ... is this from the spec?
  166. # [02:44] <garykac> Agreed that '' is the right answer since that's what gets inserted.
  167. # [02:44] <Travis> garykac: I think it's example 34.
  168. # [02:44] <garykac> (and Example 30 is now Example 34 since 4 more examples got added earlier)
  169. # [02:45] <garykac> Things like DeadAcute + m should produce 2 chars: `m
  170. # [02:45] <garykac> I *believe* that's what we see on all platforms, but we need to check/verify.
  171. # [02:45] <Travis> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23906
  172. # [02:46] <masayuki> This idea comes from XUL which is Mozilla internal API.
  173. # [02:47] <garykac> We should think about 23906 in the context of 22073 since they seem related.
  174. # [02:47] <masayuki> I believe that if web apps want to implement their own shortcut key, this is useful.
  175. # [02:47] <garykac> If we have an accelKey, then do we want people to use osKey?
  176. # [02:47] <Travis> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23907
  177. # [02:48] <masayuki> garykac: I don't think so. Even if web apps need to know the OS key state, there is getModifierState().
  178. # [02:48] <garykac> How do webapps determine now if a keydown generates text.
  179. # [02:50] <Travis> Perhaps this is a feature that we can think more extensively about in UIEvents?
  180. # [02:50] <Travis> ... does it need to go into DOM3?
  181. # [02:51] <Travis> I'd like to move this to UIEvents. masayuki what do you think?
  182. # [02:51] <masayuki> not necessary for D3E, it's okay it's in UIEvents.
  183. # [02:51] <garykac> It's an interesting problem...
  184. # [02:52] <garykac> 23908 is an interesting case as well
  185. # [02:53] <Travis> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23908
  186. # [02:53] <masayuki> I'm implementing KeyboardEvent.key for printable keys on Gecko, but bug 23908 blocks it on Mac.
  187. # [02:53] <masayuki> So, I hope we decide the answer of this today.
  188. # [02:54] <Travis> masayuki: what is your preference here?
  189. # [02:54] <Travis> (On windows, I don't have a preference ;-)
  190. # [02:54] <garykac> We'll need to create some tests for this as well (since it sounds a bit bizarre).
  191. # [02:55] <masayuki> Travis: I think that the modified key value, i.e., ASCII character is better. Even though the behavior is different from Ctrl key is pressed.
  192. # [02:55] <masayuki> because the printable key's "function" is really changed by pressing command key press.
  193. # [02:56] <garykac> Dvorak switches from Dvorak -> QWERTY when the command key is pressed?
  194. # [02:56] <masayuki> Especially, Dvorak-QWERTY keyboard layout users don't want web apps handles the key as Dvorak layout while pressing Command key.
  195. # [02:56] <garykac> But a French keyboard doesn't change the layout from AZERTY to QWERTY.
  196. # [02:57] <masayuki> garykac: yes
  197. # [02:57] <masayuki> shortcut keys of apps for English language users are designed for QWERTY. Therefore, Dvorak layout isn't useful for shortcut keys.
  198. # [02:58] <garykac> Is that just a weird behavior of Dvorak to deal with the fact that the keycaps don't match the layout.
  199. # [02:58] <masayuki> Some Mac's Dvorak users like this special layout.
  200. # [02:58] <garykac> If the OS/keyboard-layout went through the trouble to do this, then it's probably nice to support it.
  201. # [02:59] <masayuki> Non-ASCII keyboard layout such as Arabic keyboard layout also has same issue.
  202. # [02:59] <garykac> So an Arabic keyboard generates QWERTY values when the command key is pressed?
  203. # [02:59] <masayuki> Pressing command key swtches the printable keyboard layout to QWERTY.
  204. # [02:59] <garykac> I've never tried that...
  205. # [03:00] <masayuki> garykac: yes. You can confirm it with keyboard viewer of Mac OS X.
  206. # [03:00] <garykac> en-US? (not en-UK or anywhere else)
  207. # [03:00] <masayuki> I think it's en-US.
  208. # [03:00] <masayuki> IIRC, though.
  209. # [03:01] <garykac> According to Keyboard viewer...
  210. # [03:01] <garykac> cmd-a produces 'a'
  211. # [03:02] <garykac> cmd-shift-a produces 'a' (also lowercase)
  212. # [03:02] <garykac> for en-US
  213. # [03:02] <garykac> For Arabic
  214. # [03:02] <garykac> cmd-ش produces 'a'
  215. # [03:03] <garykac> cmd-shift-ش produces 'A' (uppercase)
  216. # [03:03] <garykac> This makes me sad
  217. # [03:03] <masayuki> Oh...
  218. # [03:04] <garykac> My preference is for whatever the OS gives us easily.
  219. # [03:04] <garykac> I presume that the OS is doing things for a good reason.
  220. # [03:05] <garykac> And I'm not sure how to map this equivalent into Windows or Linux.
  221. # [03:06] <masayuki> garykac: I don't think that Windows and Linux need to do same behavior since Command key is a special modifier of Mac OS.
  222. # [03:07] <Travis> We should take a break.
  223. # [03:07] <Travis> agenda?
  224. # [03:07] * Zakim sees 1 item remaining on the agenda:
  225. # [03:07] * Zakim 3. bug 23908 (key value of printable keys w/meta) [from Travis]
  226. # [03:07] <Travis> agenda- 3
  227. # [03:07] * Zakim notes agendum 3, bug 23908 (key value of printable keys w/meta), dropped
  228. # [03:07] <masayuki> Win/Super/Hyper shouldn't cause text input. So, the printable key values should be unmodified key value except Shift.
  229. # [03:08] <Travis> When should we meet again?
  230. # [03:08] <Travis> I won't be available in two weeks (or three weeks)
  231. # [03:08] <Travis> I can meet again next week though it might be too soon?
  232. # [03:08] <garykac> Next week sounds good.
  233. # [03:09] <masayuki> SGTM
  234. # [03:09] <Travis> OK. Next week it will be.
  235. # [03:09] <garykac> That way we can get feedback
  236. # [03:09] <Travis> We've made great progress on the bug list. Let's keep it up.
  237. # [03:09] <garykac> Hopefully everyone will have had time to go through the updates.
  238. # [03:09] <Travis> Please file more bugs as we find issues.
  239. # [03:09] <masayuki> Yeah.
  240. # [03:09] <Travis> kochix: Looking into next draft of IME API.
  241. # [03:10] <Travis> ... working with JianfengLi (Microsoft)
  242. # [03:10] <Travis> ... hoping to close some bugs before dec. 7
  243. # [03:10] <masayuki> garykac: Could you give your idea for bug 23908 in the bug if you're still thinking the answer?
  244. # [03:11] <Travis> Last Call?
  245. # [03:11] <Travis> Anything else for this meeting?
  246. # [03:11] <garykac> masayuki: for 23908 I don't have strong feelings either way. We should try using whatever the OS gives us easily. It doesn't sounds like it's worth adding a lot of special purpose code to handle that case.
  247. # [03:12] <garykac> kochix: Do you need anything else in the DOM3 spec for the IME spec work?
  248. # [03:12] <masayuki> garykac: Thanks, then, I'll use the ASCII characters while command key is pressed.
  249. # [03:12] <garykac> Let me know if there's anything else.
  250. # [03:12] <Travis> With that, I think we are adjurned.
  251. # [03:12] <garykac> masayuki: sgtm
  252. # [03:13] <Travis> Bye everyone!
  253. # [03:13] <Travis> See you next week.
  254. # [03:13] <garykac> good byte
  255. # [03:13] <garykac> oops
  256. # [03:13] <Zakim> -garykac
  257. # [03:13] <masayuki> See you.
  258. # [03:13] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  259. # [03:13] <Travis> rrsagent, please make the minutes
  260. # [03:13] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/12/04-webapps-minutes.html Travis
  261. # [03:13] <Zakim> - +81.36.384.aaaa
  262. # [03:13] <Zakim> RWC_WAPI(D3E)8:00PM has ended
  263. # [03:13] <Zakim> Attendees were [Microsoft], +81.36.384.aaaa, +1.425.893.aabb, garykac
  264. # [03:14] * Quits: masayuki (~masayuki@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  265. # [03:14] <Travis> RRSAgent: please make logs public
  266. # [03:14] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, Travis
  267. # [03:18] <Travis> rrsagent, bye
  268. # [03:18] <RRSAgent> I see no action items
  269. # [03:18] * Parts: RRSAgent (rrsagent@public.cloak) (RRSAgent)
  270. # [03:18] <Travis> zakim, bye
  271. # [03:18] * Parts: Zakim (zakim@public.cloak) (Zakim)
  272. # [03:18] <Travis> exit
  273. # [03:18] <Travis> :-)
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  332. # [18:45] <ArtB> speaking of the need for `broad review`, besides WebApps, what other groups or lists should be asked to review https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/streams-api/raw-file/tip/Overview.htm ?
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  334. # [18:48] <jgraham> TC39
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  336. # [18:51] <jgraham> WHATWG :)
  337. # [18:52] <jgraham> Also, very specifically, Domenic, given he has an alternate proposal
  338. # [18:52] <jgraham> https://github.com/whatwg/streams
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  340. # [19:09] <AdamB> join #social
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  342. # [19:11] <ArtB> thanks jgraham!
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The end :)