/irc-logs / w3c / #webapps / 2013-12-05 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Dec 05 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #webapps
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  123. # [20:51] <sicking> marcosc: ping
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  130. # [22:58] <marcosc> sicking: pong
  131. # [22:58] <sicking> marcosc!
  132. # [22:58] <marcosc> SIIIICKKKING!!! :D
  133. # [22:58] <sicking> marcosc: what's your target stable date for the manifest? Do you think Q1 is realistic?
  134. # [22:59] <marcosc> I think so, we are getting close to having the feature set nailed down
  135. # [22:59] <sicking> marcosc: or rather, do you think we can make Q1 if we drop complex use cases (the cookie stuff comes to mind)
  136. # [22:59] <sicking> cool
  137. # [22:59] <sicking> marcosc: your gist was pretty confusing btw. I don't think people understood that you had two separate questions in here
  138. # [23:00] <marcosc> I only really had one question, but I think people naturally went "this has to be external"
  139. # [23:01] <sicking> i think people read it as "do we want external or internal" and of course the answer is then external
  140. # [23:01] <sicking> the option that both could be allowed didn't seem clear
  141. # [23:01] <sicking> marcosc: one argument for only allowing external manifests is that inline manifests make it tricky for websites to transition into a multi-page app
  142. # [23:01] <marcosc> yeah, I tried to clarify that... not sure if I succeeded
  143. # [23:02] <marcosc> what I was primarily interested in was about the json in an attribute thing
  144. # [23:02] <sicking> marcosc: well.. people answering <link> didn't really answer that question, right?
  145. # [23:03] <marcosc> well, in some way yes
  146. # [23:03] <marcosc> but in other ways no
  147. # [23:03] <marcosc> But those that answered it were relevant. Robin was going to add something today
  148. # [23:04] <sicking> ok
  149. # [23:04] <marcosc> I asked Hixie, but he doesn't understand
  150. # [23:04] <marcosc> the use case
  151. # [23:05] <Hixie> it's not that i don't understand it, it's that i haven't found where it's described
  152. # [23:05] <Hixie> i've no idea if i'd understand it or not :-)
  153. # [23:06] <marcosc> Hixie: the question is really just about if it's ok to put JSON into a the content attribute of meta?
  154. # [23:07] <Hixie> oh, i thought the question was "is this spec ok"
  155. # [23:07] <Hixie> hmm
  156. # [23:07] <Hixie> it's a bit weird to put json there, but not the weirdest thing ever
  157. # [23:07] <Hixie> probably indicative of an underlying more serious problem though
  158. # [23:08] <marcosc> Hixie: could be
  159. # [23:08] <Hixie> how much json are we talking about?
  160. # [23:08] <Hixie> why does it have to be json?
  161. # [23:08] <Hixie> what's the data structure?
  162. # [23:08] <Hixie> how is it used?
  163. # [23:09] <Hixie> generally i'd warn off using <meta> at all, for browser stuff
  164. # [23:09] <Hixie> is it browser stuff?
  165. # [23:09] <marcosc> http://manifest.sysapps.org/#usage-examples
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  167. # [23:09] <Hixie> (i love how that spec calls itself simultaneously a standard and a draft)
  168. # [23:10] <marcosc> Hixie: yeah... Respec is trying to force my hand :(
  169. # [23:10] <marcosc> Hixie: will fix that soon
  170. # [23:10] <Hixie> if that blob in "EXAMPLE 1" is representative of what you want to apear in an attribute, i'd probably raise an eyebrow at it
  171. # [23:11] <marcosc> Hixie: btw, the problem we are trying to solve is here http://w3c-webmob.github.io/installable-webapps/
  172. # [23:11] <marcosc> Hixie: example 1 is fairly common
  173. # [23:12] <Hixie> i disagree with "the web platform lacks a standardized means for a web application to indicate that it can be "installed" and treated as if it were an native application"
  174. # [23:12] <Hixie> the standardised means of indicating that a page can be installed is for the page to exist
  175. # [23:13] <marcosc> true, that's badly worded
  176. # [23:13] <marcosc> will fix
  177. # [23:14] <Hixie> what's the difference between an application "function as standalone" and not?
  178. # [23:15] <marcosc> mostly that it runs outside a browser
  179. # [23:15] <Hixie> sorry, i poorly pasted that
  180. # [23:15] <Hixie> i meant, what kind of web pages aren't able to function like that?
  181. # [23:15] <marcosc> ones that rely on a back button
  182. # [23:16] <Hixie> oh, because iOS has no back button?
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  184. # [23:16] <marcosc> yeah
  185. # [23:16] <marcosc> and they don't show any browser chrome for standalone apps
  186. # [23:17] <Hixie> couldn't you just slide in some back button ui once there's a session history?
  187. # [23:17] <marcosc> sure, but people seem to want to be able to have control of that
  188. # [23:18] <marcosc> we do that in FxOS already
  189. # [23:18] <marcosc> (bookmark to home screen gives you access to minimal UI)
  190. # [23:18] <Hixie> don't they have control, by, like, not adding a session history?
  191. # [23:18] <Hixie> e.g. using location.replace() instead of location.assign() ?
  192. # [23:19] <marcosc> I guess, but that means a lot of work for devs in that they have to capture all click events, etc
  193. # [23:20] <Hixie> if an app has that much navigation, it seems like maybe they should be happy with the browser exposing a back button...
  194. # [23:20] <marcosc> Hixie: see http://w3c-webmob.github.io/installable-webapps/#ios7-safari-1
  195. # [23:20] <Hixie> 90% of the things on the requirements list here are things HTML already does, fwiw
  196. # [23:20] <marcosc> Hixie: yeah, basically... the only advantage is externalizing it
  197. # [23:21] <marcosc> if that is an advantage, that is
  198. # [23:21] <Hixie> seems pretty easy to catch all navigations, btw
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  200. # [23:21] <Hixie> i mean you just need an event listener
  201. # [23:21] <Hixie> much like in that example that you cited just now
  202. # [23:22] <marcosc> ah, yes. Ideally, one can create an app that can be navigated without requiring any script
  203. # [23:22] <marcosc> Hixie: Chrome Beta for Android was allowing this
  204. # [23:22] <marcosc> (they yanked the add to home screen feature a few days ago from the beta)
  205. # [23:22] <Hixie> sure, i'm just talking about if you also want to hide the default back button which would come in when you got a session history
  206. # [23:23] <Hixie> anyway, what's the manifest got to do with this? doesn't service workers and/or appcache and/or anne's "zip" scheme already solve the bundling issue?
  207. # [23:23] <marcosc> I guess I'd have to try this out... it feels like managing navigation history to avoid the UI popping up would be a lot of work
  208. # [23:24] <Hixie> why would it be a lot of work?
  209. # [23:24] <Hixie> you just catch clicks on links, and use history.replace() instead
  210. # [23:24] <Hixie> it's almost identical to that script you pointed out
  211. # [23:24] <marcosc> well, what if you navigated forward a few links, then wanted to go back 3 times?
  212. # [23:25] <marcosc> you would need some kind of little history db
  213. # [23:25] <Hixie> oh you want to hide the browser's back button but then provide one yourself?
  214. # [23:25] <Hixie> that just seems like a lot of pointless work
  215. # [23:25] <Hixie> what's wrong with the browser's?
  216. # [23:26] <Hixie> in practice, native apps don't do that, anyway
  217. # [23:26] <marcosc> yeah, that's what FxOS gets people to do... it proved too much work, so they added a "chrome" manifest member
  218. # [23:26] <Hixie> they just have one back button per page
  219. # [23:29] <marcosc> yes, I guess that's right
  220. # [23:32] <marcosc> I'll shop that idea around a bit, see what potential implementers think
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  222. # [23:38] <marcosc> Hixie: oh, the last question I had was, if implementers won't budge on using JSON for this, is using <script type="application/manifest+json"> a better alternative to using <meta name="manifest" content='{ ...json... }'>?
  223. # [23:38] <Hixie> i don't understand the manifest part of this at all
  224. # [23:38] <Hixie> <Hixie> anyway, what's the manifest got to do with this? doesn't service workers and/or appcache and/or anne's "zip" scheme already solve the bundling issue?
  225. # [23:39] <marcosc> it seems vendors want a better alternative to the metadata ... that other stuff is separate from just giving an application a name
  226. # [23:40] <marcosc> also, there is talk of hooking up the service worker through the JSON manifest
  227. # [23:41] <marcosc> {"serviceWorker": {"url":"worker.js", urlSpace: "foo/*"} }
  228. # [23:41] <marcosc> or something
  229. # [23:41] <Hixie> so, we're back to "i don't understand the use case"
  230. # [23:41] <Hixie> what's the manifest?
  231. # [23:41] <Hixie> what is it manifesting?
  232. # [23:41] <Hixie> i had assumed it was the bundling issue
  233. # [23:42] <marcosc> right now, it's just for name and icons
  234. # [23:42] <Hixie> that's already solved in HTML. let's not add more redundant ways to do that.
  235. # [23:42] <marcosc> yeah, I said the same thing
  236. # [23:42] <Hixie> <meta name="application-name"> and <link rel=icon>
  237. # [23:42] <Hixie> the latter of which has sizes="" for multiple icons
  238. # [23:43] <marcosc> is sizes in the spec yet?
  239. # [23:43] <Hixie> and the former of which has lang="" if you need localisation
  240. # [23:43] <Hixie> sizes="" has been in HTML for years
  241. # [23:43] <marcosc> ah, nice
  242. # [23:43] <Hixie> 2008
  243. # [23:44] <Hixie> (same as application-name)
  244. # [23:44] <marcosc> I agree that all the bits are in place. I'll try to find out why those are not sufficient enough. I haven't been able to get a good answer for that
  245. # [23:45] <marcosc> I think people just think it's easier to deal with the JSON
  246. # [23:45] <marcosc> as you don't have to parse the HTML and it's not dynamic
  247. # [23:46] <Hixie> you still have to parse the HTML to get the JSON!
  248. # [23:46] <Hixie> and then you have to parse the JSON
  249. # [23:46] <Hixie> that's _more_ parsing
  250. # [23:46] <Hixie> plus, you have to define how to handle misstructured JSON
  251. # [23:46] <Hixie> which you get for free on the HTML side
  252. # [23:46] <Hixie> as far as the dynamic thing goes, if it's obtained via the HTML file, it's exactly as dynamic as the existing solutions
  253. # [23:55] <Domenic_> marcosc: I feel like I was pro-JSON until you actually wrote down how it would work. But now it seems silly.
  254. # [23:57] <marcosc> Domenic_: what do you mean?
  255. # [23:58] <Domenic_> Well all the practical problems of inline vs. external vs. the existing meta tags, and parsing and the preloaded and so on, makes it feel less of an obvious solution now.
  256. # Session Close: Fri Dec 06 00:00:01 2013

The end :)