/irc-logs / w3c / #webapps / 2014-04-10 / end

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# Session Start: Thu Apr 10 00:00:00 2014
# Session Ident: #webapps
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# [15:51] <smaug> MikeSmith: ping
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# [16:45] <MikeSmith> smaug: here now
# [16:46] <smaug> MikeSmith: actually nm. Just trying to setup a sip client for w3c stuff
# [16:46] <smaug> found the w3 documentation
# [16:46] <smaug> (but the client software doesn't seem to work)
# [16:48] <MikeSmith> I had mine set up a while back on my macbook but I haven't used it lately
# [16:49] <MikeSmith> if you ask on the #sysreq channel somebody from the systems team could help
# [16:49] <MikeSmith> if it's not just a problem with your client
# [16:51] <smaug> it seems to be a problem with the client
# [16:51] <smaug> I'll keep using skype
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# [18:00] <plh> zakim, this is WebApps
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# [18:00] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/04/10-webapps-irc
# [18:00] <plh> zakim, this is WebApps
# [18:00] <Zakim> plh, I see IA_WebApps()12:00PM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be WebApps".
# [18:00] <ArtB> RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
# [18:00] <RRSAgent> ok, ArtB; I will not start a new log at midnight
# [18:00] <plh> zakim, this will be WebApps
# [18:00] <Zakim> ok, plh; I see IA_WebApps()12:00PM scheduled to start now
# [18:00] <ArtB> Scribe: Art
# [18:00] <ArtB> ScribeNick: ArtB
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# [18:01] <plh> zakim, passcode?
# [18:01] <Zakim> the conference code is 9274 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), plh
# [18:01] <ArtB> Meeting: WebApps f2f Meeting (San Jose CA US)
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# [18:02] <Zakim> IA_WebApps()12:00PM has now started
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# [18:02] <Zakim> +[Paypal]
# [18:02] <ArtB> Present: Art_Barstow, Robin_Berjon, Ryoskue_Niwa, Phillipe_LeHegaret
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# [18:02] <adrianba> Present+ Adrian_Bateman
# [18:02] <ArtB> Present+ Mike_Smith
# [18:02] <plh> Present+Philippe_Le_Hegaret
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# [18:05] <plh> rrsagent, generate minutes
# [18:05] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/10-webapps-minutes.html plh
# [18:05] * Yves rrsagent, make logs public
# [18:05] * RRSAgent I have made the request, Yves
# [18:06] <plh> rrsagent, make logs public-visible
# [18:06] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, plh
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# [18:06] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
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# [18:06] <plh> Chair: Art
# [18:06] <smaug> Zakim, [IPcaller] is Olli_Pettay
# [18:06] <Zakim> +Olli_Pettay; got it
# [18:06] <smaug> Zakim, nick smaug is Olli_Pettay
# [18:06] <Zakim> ok, smaug, I now associate you with Olli_Pettay
# [18:07] <zqzhang> Present+ Zhiqiang_Zhang
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# [18:08] <chaals> Regrets+ Chaals
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# [18:08] * chaals will be following some of the time in IRC, and may be able to dial in if it is really important.
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# [18:09] <bryan> Present+ Bryan_Sullivan
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# [18:10] <bryan> on the bridge, Bryan Sullivan (AT&T)
# [18:10] <opoto> present+ opoto
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# [18:11] <xiaoqian> Present+ Xiaoqian, Jinsong, Zhiqiang, Baoping
# [18:12] <plh> http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/PubStatus#API_Specifications
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# [18:13] <plh> scribe: plh
# [18:13] <plh> Topic: PubStatus
# [18:13] <plh> Art: Clipboard API
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# [18:13] <plh> ... we have a status report as of April 8
# [18:14] <plh> ... the editor isn't around
# [18:14] <plh> Ryo: some discussions on how to spec the markup
# [18:15] <plh> ... this will take a couple of years to spec
# [18:15] <plh> ... seralize the DOM, including style, is complex
# [18:15] <plh> s/ize/izing/
# [18:15] <plh> ... I'll post more details on the list
# [18:15] <plh> ... but it will take a long time
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# [18:15] <plh> Art: if folks are interested in moving this spec forward, please step up as always
# [18:16] <plh> Art: DOM3 Events
# [18:16] <plh> ... we don't have the editors around either
# [18:16] <plh> ... will be a third LC
# [18:16] <plh> ... 12 bugs
# [18:16] <plh> ... some concerns since HTML5 has a normative ref for it
# [18:16] <plh> ... and would make life easier if DOM3 Events was a REC
# [18:17] <plh> ... since it's not going to happen anytime soon
# [18:17] <plh> ... I've been pushing this soec to go back to LC
# [18:17] <adrianba> q+
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# [18:17] <plh> Marcos: what's the dependency?
# [18:17] <plh> Robin: it's about the event types
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# [18:18] <plh> Art: UIEvents is blocked on D3E
# [18:18] <plh> ... Pointer Events depends on UIEvents
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# [18:19] <plh> Art: Glenn expressed interest in moving forward D3E
# [18:19] * rniwa can't connect to irc.w3.org on his IRC client :(
# [18:20] <plh> ... plan is to split out features that would prevent it to move forward
# [18:20] <plh> Adrian: plan to split out key names/values
# [18:20] <smaug> rniwa: wrong port?
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# [18:20] <smaug> rniwa: should be 6665
# [18:20] <plh> ... and proceed
# [18:21] * Parts: KenjiBX (~KenjiBX@public.cloak)
# [18:21] <plh> ... primary reason is that changing will happen to those anyway
# [18:21] <plh> ... also want to review various mobile platforms and their keyboards
# [18:22] * anssik Zakim-SIP bridge is down, can we do anything about it?
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# [18:22] <adrianba> q-
# [18:22] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:22] <plh> Art: DOM P&S
# [18:22] * KenjiBX_ is now known as KenjiBX
# [18:22] <plh> ... pre-LC2 comment period
# [18:22] <plh> ... last set of bugs submitted by Anne
# [18:23] <plh> ... in the absence of issues in the next couple of days, we'll start LC2
# [18:23] <plh> Art: CfC to stop work on File API specs.
# [18:23] <plh> ... no one objected
# [18:24] <plh> Ryo: any test on DOM P&S
# [18:25] <ArtB> ACTION: barstow update testing info in PubStatus for DOM P&S spec
# [18:25] * @trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [18:25] * RRSAgent records action 1
# [18:25] <@trackbot> Created ACTION-714 - Update testing info in pubstatus for dom p&s spec [on Arthur Barstow - due 2014-04-17].
# [18:25] <plh> https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/issues?labels=domparsing&page=1&state=open
# [18:25] <plh> https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/493
# [18:26] <plh> Art: FullSccreen API
# [18:26] <plh> ... last update was 2 years ago
# [18:27] <plh> ... plan was to copy a somewhat stable version into W3C spec
# [18:27] <plh> ... whenever they think it's donish
# [18:28] <plh> Mike: zero bugs is the best you get from the WHATWG
# [18:28] <plh> ... I don't think it's being worked on actively
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# [18:28] <plh> ... it's on a back burner
# [18:29] <plh> Art: any concerns?
# [18:29] * Hixie raises his hand
# [18:29] * Zakim sees raises, his on the speaker queue
# [18:29] <Hixie> could we not copy other groups' work, causing forked specs?
# [18:29] <plh> Glenn: is there a dependency from HTML 5.0
# [18:30] <plh> Robin: Fullscreen is non-normative
# [18:30] <plh> Art: [reading Hixie's comments from IRC]
# [18:31] <plh> queue=
# [18:31] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:31] <plh> Art: let's move that to an admin topic
# [18:31] <plh> ... (adding to the whiteboard)
# [18:31] <plh> Art: Gamepad
# [18:31] <plh> ... they have one bug left
# [18:31] <adrianba> q+
# [18:31] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [18:32] <plh> ... will enter LC in Q2
# [18:32] <plh> ack adr
# [18:32] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:32] <plh> Adrian: we're looking into this spec. filed a couple of bugs
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# [18:32] <plh> ... so some discussion left
# [18:32] <smaug> (Gamepad will be most probably enabled in FF29)
# [18:32] <plh> Present+ Tantek
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# [18:33] <plh> Present+ Ted
# [18:33] <plh> Present+ Brad
# [18:33] <plh> Present+ Jonas
# [18:33] <plh> Art: (going to back to fullscreen)
# [18:33] * marcosc Hixie, I asked them to add the "keep forking the gaddam specs" to the agenda :)
# [18:33] <plh> Tantek: status sounds reasonnable
# [18:34] <plh> ... Anne is doing most of the work there
# [18:34] <plh> ... it's waiting for more implementation feedback
# [18:34] <plh> Art: implementation status?
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# [18:34] * plh (*&$%(*&($*&%)(*
# [18:35] <plh> Marcos: status is pretty good
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# [18:35] <plh> ACTION: Art to follow with Tantek and Anne on next steps for fullscreen
# [18:35] * RRSAgent records action 2
# [18:35] * @trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [18:35] <@trackbot> Created ACTION-715 - Follow with tantek and anne on next steps for fullscreen [on Arthur Barstow - due 2014-04-17].
# [18:35] <plh> Adrian: everybody does it differently :(
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# [18:36] <plh> ... body element fullscreen gets different resutls for example
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# [18:36] <plh> Art: anybody to look into tests?
# [18:36] <krisk> I can push some tests into github for fullscreen
# [18:36] <plh> Kris: I can do it
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# [18:36] <krisk> ACTION: krisk push full screen api tests into github
# [18:36] * RRSAgent records action 3
# [18:36] * @trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [18:36] <plh> ACTION: Kris to look at tests for Fullscreen
# [18:36] <@trackbot> Created ACTION-716 - Push full screen api tests into github [on Kris Krueger - due 2014-04-17].
# [18:36] * @trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [18:36] <@trackbot> Created ACTION-717 - Look at tests for fullscreen [on Kris Krueger - due 2014-04-17].
# [18:36] * RRSAgent records action 4
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# [18:37] <plh> Art: Aryeh did some good work
# [18:37] <plh> ... and Ryo did some work as well
# [18:37] <plh> ... should we find a timeslot for this?
# [18:37] <plh> Adrian: +1
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# [18:38] <plh> Art: ok, 10:30am then
# [18:38] <Yves> last &sysreq
# [18:38] <Yves> s/last &sysreq//
# [18:38] <plh> Art: IDB
# [18:38] <plh> ... CR for 9 months
# [18:38] <plh> ... draft implementation report
# [18:39] <plh> ... missing data for IE
# [18:39] <plh> Kris: I'll give results
# [18:39] <plh> Art: we're making progress there
# [18:40] <plh> ... between Josh and Jonas, various discussions on work on v2
# [18:40] <krisk> Yep we were talking at the HTML WG meeting about this and exchanged email
# [18:40] <plh> Israel: full text search capability
# [18:41] <plh> Josh: guidance on moving forward for v2?
# [18:41] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
# [18:41] * tantek good morning
# [18:41] <plh> Art: adding IDB at 4pm
# [18:42] <plh> Art: IME
# [18:42] * slightlyoff_ is now known as slightlyoff
# [18:42] <plh> Yoshi(?): one bug remaining
# [18:42] <slightlyoff> FYI, I'm going to be at the meeting later today and most of tomorrow so feel free to schedule SW discussion for any time after noon today
# [18:42] <plh> ... it's 2 documents now
# [18:43] <plh> ... first one is good enough to move forward
# [18:43] <plh> ... [offset clarification needed]
# [18:44] <plh> Adrian: we need to discuss that one, but we implemented it in IE11 and we were ok with the split
# [18:44] <plh> ... it's in good shape
# [18:44] <plh> Art: what about moz?
# [18:44] <plh> Jonas: dunno
# [18:44] * cwilso__ FYI, I'm also coming in later today and tomorrow.
# [18:44] <plh> Yoshi(?): didn't see interest outside MS and GOO
# [18:45] <plh> Art: test?
# [18:45] <plh> Mike: I can work woth Koshi
# [18:45] <plh> s/woth/with/
# [18:46] <falken> ^^^ (Takayoshi Kochi)
# [18:46] * Quits: richt (~richt@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [18:46] <plh> Art: Manifest is this afternoon
# [18:46] <plh> Art: Pointer Lock, we're in CR
# [18:46] <plh> s/Koshi/Kochi/
# [18:46] <plh> ... we have a few tests
# [18:46] * Joins: richt (~richt@public.cloak)
# [18:46] <plh> Art: Push API is this afternoon
# [18:47] <plh> Art: quote API. status report on April 9
# [18:47] <plh> Yves: TAG is working on review of this spec
# [18:47] <plh> ... about to be done
# [18:48] <plh> Art: any issue?
# [18:48] <plh> Yves: one issue on good understanding on type of storage (persistent, etc.)
# [18:48] <plh> Art: Screen Orientation?
# [18:49] <plh> Mounir: I sent an update to the list
# [18:49] <plh> ... so could address questions
# [18:49] <plh> ... made some changes, prefix impl from moz and ms, are they ok with them?
# [18:50] <plh> Jonas: let's allocate some time
# [18:50] <plh> Art: 4:30pm this afternoon
# [18:50] <plh> Art: Server-Sent Events
# [18:50] <plh> ... CR
# [18:50] <plh> ... draft impl report
# [18:51] <plh> ... looks like we're close to being done with this. just a few bugs
# [18:51] <plh> ... there is a PR for the timeout failure
# [18:51] <plh> Zhihang: can someone review it?
# [18:52] <plh> Art: and we have some failures
# [18:52] <plh> ... URL constructor failures
# [18:52] <plh> s/URL//
# [18:52] <plh> ... probably all the same error
# [18:52] <xiaoqian> s/Zhihang/zqzhang/
# [18:52] <plh> ... if someone could take a look at these 4 failures
# [18:53] <plh> ... from the chrome team
# [18:53] * Quits: richt (~richt@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:54] <tyoshino> tyoshino of Chrome team. going to take a look at SSE failure
# [18:54] <tyoshino> s
# [18:54] <plh> ACTION: tyoshino to look at the failures on Server-Sent Events
# [18:54] * @trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [18:54] * RRSAgent records action 5
# [18:54] <@trackbot> Created ACTION-718 - Look at the failures on server-sent events [on Takeshi Yoshino - due 2014-04-17].
# [18:55] <plh> Art: ServiceWorker, we have time allocated
# [18:55] <plh> Art: Stream API
# [18:55] * dglazkov can somebody come get me from the reception? Been sitting here for a free mins.
# [18:56] <plh> Feras: we have one common API between Node and the browsers for Stream API in WhATWG
# [18:56] <plh> ... it's pretty stable for the most part
# [18:56] <plh> ... but no really big change expected
# [18:56] <adrianba> q+
# [18:56] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [18:56] <plh> ... some cleaning and then integration back into W3c side
# [18:57] * Yves dglazkov, someone on its way
# [18:57] <plh> Marcos: we got agreement to move that spec into W3C proper at some point
# [18:57] <plh> ... while maintaining the CC0 aspect at the same time
# [18:57] <plh> ack ad
# [18:57] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:58] <adrianba> http://lanyrd.com/2014/extensible-web-summit/scyqth/
# [18:58] <plh> Adrian: the stream topic was discussed at the summit
# [18:58] <plh> ... (link to minutes above)
# [18:58] <plh> ... good discussion there
# [18:58] <plh> ... sense is that there are still some open questions for the design for the base spec
# [18:59] <plh> Art: captured in the github?
# [18:59] <plh> Marcos: yes, discussion on the way
# [18:59] <plh> Art: ok, looks like this is moving forward
# [18:59] <plh> Present+ Dimitry
# [18:59] <plh> Art: UIEvents
# [18:59] <plh> ... was mentioned earlier
# [18:59] <plh> ... priority is D3E
# [19:00] <krisk> I think their are tests for URL http://w3c-test.org/url/
# [19:00] <plh> Art: Web IDL
# [19:01] <adrianba> s/Web IDL/URL/
# [19:02] <plh> plh: [...]
# [19:03] <plh> ... plan is to work on it in webapps
# [19:03] <tantek> plan is for *who* to work on it in webapps?
# [19:04] <plh> Mike: I won't be able to be the test facilitator
# [19:04] <tantek> or is this just for testing the URL spec?
# [19:04] <plh> Mike: [some discussion on the test suite]
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# [19:05] * Quits: horo (~horo@public.cloak) ("Lost terminal")
# [19:05] <plh> Glenn: is the plan to publish a W3C version of the spec?
# [19:05] <plh> Plh: yes
# [19:05] * Joins: horo (~horo@public.cloak)
# [19:05] <plh> ... Dan AppelQuist will look into it
# [19:05] * Joins: richt (~richt@public.cloak)
# [19:05] <plh> Art: Web IDL
# [19:06] <plh> ... Cameron sent tests
# [19:06] <plh> ... we came up with comments
# [19:06] <plh> ... yves has been looking to update the PR
# [19:06] <plh> ... for the PR, some things are not implemented at all, like ArrayClass
# [19:06] <plh> ... float has some issues
# [19:07] <plh> ... since some constructors are not allowed all values to be checked
# [19:07] * Parts: plh (plehegar@public.cloak) (Leaving)
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# [19:07] <plh> Yves: two more weeks of work there
# [19:08] <plh> Art: plan is CR->LC
# [19:08] <plh> Yves: Cameron is pretty close to that
# [19:09] <plh> Art: Boris came on board to help. Anyone else willing to help?
# [19:09] <plh> ... WebIDL is used in a lot of specs
# [19:10] <plh> ... is Promises part of v1?
# [19:10] <plh> Yves: if publishing v1 takes too much time, then yes
# [19:10] <plh> ... as long as we have tests
# [19:10] <plh> Art: ok, work is progressing.
# [19:11] <plh> Art: Web Messaging
# [19:11] <plh> ... spec is in CR for 2 years
# [19:11] * shepazu would like to dial in for any chartering discussion
# [19:11] <plh> Kris: still lots of failures
# [19:12] <plh> Kris: I think the tests are accurate
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# [19:12] * marcosc notes plh ... http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/post/82303231473/plh-stops-by-arts-office
# [19:13] <plh> ACTION: Art to change WebMessaging test facilitator to Kris
# [19:13] * @trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [19:13] * RRSAgent records action 6
# [19:13] <@trackbot> Created ACTION-719 - Change webmessaging test facilitator to kris [on Arthur Barstow - due 2014-04-17].
# [19:14] <plh> Art: Web Sockets
# [19:14] <plh> ... CR in 2012
# [19:15] <plh> ... failures in the tests again
# [19:15] <plh> ... any test case issue?
# [19:15] <plh> Kris: similar to Web Messaging. bugs to be fixed.
# [19:16] <plh> Art: deployment status?
# [19:16] <plh> Robin: works pretty weel
# [19:16] <plh> s/weel/well/
# [19:16] * Joins: nhiroki_ (~nhiroki@public.cloak)
# [19:16] <plh> Robin: if you stick to the common core
# [19:17] <plh> Art: so many people should go fixing their implementations...
# [19:17] <plh> Art: Workers
# [19:17] <plh> ... similar again
# [19:18] <plh> ... James created an implementation report
# [19:19] * Joins: BaopingCheng (~BaopingCheng@public.cloak)
# [19:19] <plh> ACTION: Kris to provide test results for Web Workers
# [19:20] * @trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [19:20] * RRSAgent records action 7
# [19:20] <@trackbot> Created ACTION-720 - Provide test results for web workers [on Kris Krueger - due 2014-04-17].
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# [19:20] <marcosc> join #webmob
# [19:20] <marcosc> argh
# [19:20] <plh> Art: last is XHR
# [19:20] * hober marcosc: :)
# [19:20] <plh> Jungkee: not much to update
# [19:21] <plh> ... no particular issue. just working on testing side
# [19:21] <plh> ... test ratio increasing in blink and gecko
# [19:21] <plh> ... need some help from MS
# [19:22] <plh> ... impl report is up-to-date
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# [19:23] <plh> ... around 10 to 20 tests are failing across all browsers
# [19:23] <plh> Art: probably more than 20
# [19:23] * Quits: nhiroki_ (~nhiroki@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [19:23] <plh> Art: back to potential topics
# [19:23] * Joins: israelh (~israelh@public.cloak)
# [19:23] <plh> ... some admin related stuff
# [19:24] * Quits: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak) (jcraig)
# [19:24] <chaals> ккыфпутеб вкфае ьштгеуы
# [19:24] <chaals> s/ккыфпутеб вкфае ьштгеуы//
# [19:24] <chaals> rrsagent, draft minutes
# [19:24] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/10-webapps-minutes.html chaals
# [19:24] <plh> Yves: charter, packaging spec from the TAG
# [19:25] <plh> ... might want to work with webapps for that
# [19:25] <plh> Art: any news from the TAG f2f or summit?
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# [19:26] <plh> Art: workvers v2?
# [19:26] * Parts: plh (plehegar@public.cloak) (Leaving)
# [19:26] <Yves> http://w3ctag.github.io/packaging-on-the-web/
# [19:26] * Joins: plh (plehegar@public.cloak)
# [19:26] <plh> Jonas: sure
# [19:27] * Joins: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak)
# [19:27] <plh> Art: Workers v2 at 5pm
# [19:28] <plh> Art: Admin copying specs at 5:30pm
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# [19:29] <plh> [break]
# [19:33] * Disconnected
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# [20:02] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [20:02] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/10-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
# [20:03] * rniwa is excited for editing API discussion
# [20:04] * Joins: KenjiBX (~KenjiBX@public.cloak)
# [20:04] * chaals doesn't say anything about what excites rniwa ;)
# [20:05] * Joins: fjh (~fhirsch3@public.cloak)
# [20:08] <adrianba> ScribeNick: adrianba
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# [20:08] * Parts: fjh (~fhirsch3@public.cloak) (fjh)
# [20:08] <adrianba> rniwa: do people from msft have topics other than the two i listed?
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# [20:08] <adrianba> BenjamP: sounds good
# [20:08] * Joins: opoto (~opoto@public.cloak)
# [20:08] <ArtB> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/editing/raw-file/tip/editing.html -> Editing API
# [20:08] <adrianba> rniwa: on the status page it sounded like i was going to do the whole editing api
# [20:09] * Joins: kochi_w3c (~kochi_w3c@public.cloak)
# [20:09] <adrianba> ... but i actually want to work on extracting selection and put it into its own spec
# [20:09] <ArtB> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2014AprJun/0099.html -> Ryosuke's email re Editing topics
# [20:09] <adrianba> ... so we can unblock other work that is hand wavy about what selection does
# [20:09] <adrianba> ... so i think the priority is for us to work on selection api
# [20:09] * Joins: xiaoqian (xiaoqian@public.cloak)
# [20:09] <adrianba> ... and then maybe do editing after
# [20:09] <adrianba> hober: at the html wg the consensus was splitting off selection and tackling that first is a really big win
# [20:10] <adrianba> ... having a well defined way to do multiple selection and bidi would be a good win
# [20:10] * Joins: horo (~horo@public.cloak)
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# [20:10] <adrianba> ... having a good understanding of selection would inform future editing work
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# [20:10] <adrianba> BenjamP: i agree as well
# [20:11] <adrianba> sicking: i haven't followed this - i'm very interested if someone figures out contenteditable we would implement
# [20:11] <adrianba> ... starting with selection sounds good
# [20:11] <adrianba> ... definitely tricky problems where
# [20:11] <adrianba> ... not sure how much it helps with contenteditable
# [20:11] <adrianba> rniwa: copy/paste and clipboard apis is another thing
# [20:11] <adrianba> ... there was a discussion of how to serialise styled DOM
# [20:12] <adrianba> ... i don't know what the dependency should be here
# [20:12] <adrianba> ... should the clipboard api be part of selection api
# [20:12] * Joins: horo (~horo@public.cloak)
# [20:12] <adrianba> ... it seems weird to specify clipboard in selection
# [20:12] <adrianba> BenjamP: maybe it is important for clipboard to understand range
# [20:12] <adrianba> ... knowing active range
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# [20:12] <adrianba> rniwa: are you saying define active selection in selection api
# [20:12] * Quits: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak) (jcraig)
# [20:12] <adrianba> BenjamP: yes
# [20:13] <adrianba> rniwa: but that would block clipboard
# [20:13] <adrianba> hober: i think that's fine
# [20:13] <adrianba> darobin: it makes sense for clipboard to depend on selection
# [20:13] <adrianba> rniwa: copy/paste will be in clipboard api - is that the right approach
# [20:13] <adrianba> rniwa: is there anything else about the selection api split?
# [20:14] <adrianba> ArtB: you are intending to lead the editing?
# [20:14] <adrianba> rniwa: yes
# [20:14] <adrianba> ArtB: are you looking for assistance
# [20:14] <adrianba> darobin: maybe you can start the new spec in github somewhere and then people can do pull requests
# [20:15] <adrianba> rniwa: if someone from microsoft or mozilla or someone else wants to help that would be great
# [20:15] <adrianba> <crickets>
# [20:15] <adrianba> rniwa: i wanted to move on to discussing improving contenteditable
# [20:15] * hober commends adrianba's scribing
# [20:15] <adrianba> ... i read the spec and it is really hard to read
# [20:15] <adrianba> ... i understand others had problems - it's very algorithmic
# [20:16] * Quits: FerasM (~FerasM@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [20:16] * ArtB the "usefulness" of a meeting is inversely proportional to the number of memes for the meeting ;)
# [20:16] <adrianba> ... it appears to me that because of historic divergence between browsers a lot of frameworks are depending on specific bugs in certain browsers
# [20:16] <slightlyoff_> (cwilso and I are waiting in the entry)
# [20:16] <Zakim> +arunranga
# [20:16] <adrianba> ... so i think it would be beneficial to talk about a new editing api
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# [20:16] <arunranga> Zakim, mute me
# [20:16] <Zakim> arunranga should now be muted
# [20:16] <adrianba> darobin: we discussed this in html
# [20:17] * Joins: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak)
# [20:17] <adrianba> ... i've been talking to editing frameworks and msft has been talking to their teams
# [20:17] <adrianba> ... we came to the conclusion people want an editing surface that does less
# [20:17] <adrianba> ... and the apps have to block all the capabilities
# [20:17] <adrianba> ... we were thinking about maybe a more minimal contenteditable
# [20:18] <adrianba> rniwa: the current editing spec has some proposals around new input events
# [20:18] <adrianba> ... and you get more information about key bindings
# [20:18] <adrianba> ... solving that is more important
# [20:19] <adrianba> darobin: wasn't someone working on a higher level event spec
# [20:19] <adrianba> adrianba: IndieUI?
# [20:19] * ArtB to slightlyoff_ , cwilso__ Brad Hill is on the way
# [20:19] <adrianba> hober: IndieUI would probably be downstream of this
# [20:19] <adrianba> ... it's mostly parallel
# [20:20] <adrianba> rniwa: some apps may already support some subset of events - you could imagine an attribute that allows some of those events to still fire
# [20:20] <adrianba> ... for example pressing delete could send the delete command
# [20:20] <adrianba> ... definitely see connection between IndieUI for a11y and what we need for editing
# [20:20] <adrianba> BenjamP: there is definitely a connection at some level
# [20:20] <adrianba> ... for example they have undo/redo which you would need
# [20:21] <adrianba> hober: if a new spec defined undo/redo as events in the platform then IndieUI would reference them
# [20:21] <adrianba> rniwa: input only fires on editable fields - perhaps we need it on some other things
# [20:22] <adrianba> darobin: one idea for contenteditable=basic is that it gives you a caret - if it was there then it would give those events
# [20:22] <adrianba> ... but maybe you'd need that elsewhere too
# [20:22] <adrianba> ... for example on svg not sure putting contenteditable would work
# [20:22] <adrianba> rniwa: maybe you need something to make an element caret navigateable
# [20:22] * hober <svg:switch contenteditable>
# [20:22] <adrianba> ... you don't want to use contenteditable basic but do want events
# [20:23] <adrianba> darobin: makes sense
# [20:23] <adrianba> BenjamP: agree with having basic editing as a long term goal
# [20:23] <adrianba> ... but difficult to do this without better selection first
# [20:23] <adrianba> darobin: we concluded this yesterday too
# [20:23] <adrianba> ... sounds like there will be 3 or 4 features here
# [20:24] <adrianba> dglazkov__: might be good to have a high level explainer first
# [20:24] <adrianba> darobin: like web components?
# [20:24] * Quits: KenjiBX (~KenjiBX@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [20:24] <adrianba> dglazkov__: i like the way the discussion is going - in webkit and blink editor is an actor on the outside of the DOM
# [20:24] <adrianba> ... the way you are describing it is to build small things to allow the possibility to build in javascript
# [20:25] <adrianba> darobin: and that is what libraries do
# [20:25] <adrianba> ... i'm happy to take an action to write an explainer
# [20:25] <adrianba> rniwa: can we invite people to tpac to discuss this - would be good to get web developers to comment
# [20:25] <adrianba> darobin: we can find a way
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# [20:26] <adrianba> dglazkov__: doesn't even need to be at tpac - extensible web summit was awesome because real web developers came
# [20:26] <adrianba> darobin: we should do more of that
# [20:26] <darobin> ACTION: Robin to start writing a high level explainer about the pieces that are needed to put together editing
# [20:26] * @trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [20:26] * RRSAgent records action 8
# [20:26] <@trackbot> Created ACTION-721 - Start writing a high level explainer about the pieces that are needed to put together editing [on Robin Berjon - due 2014-04-17].
# [20:26] <adrianba> ... bit early to discuss organising at tpac
# [20:26] <adrianba> ... will work on that
# [20:26] <adrianba> rniwa: anything else?
# [20:26] <adrianba> ... thank you
# [20:27] <arunranga> zakim, unmute me
# [20:27] <Zakim> arunranga should no longer be muted
# [20:27] <adrianba> TOPIC: File and Filesystem APIs
# [20:28] <adrianba> arunranga: we should start with File because it is easier
# [20:28] <adrianba> ... issues left that derailed it from LCWD
# [20:28] <ArtB> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/FileAPI/ -> File API spec
# [20:28] <adrianba> ... really problems with Blob
# [20:28] <adrianba> ... everyone wants stream but stream isn't coming yet
# [20:28] <ArtB> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=WebAppsWG&component=File%20API&;resolution=--- -> File API bugs
# [20:28] <adrianba> ... problems with blob, neutering, and urls
# [20:28] <adrianba> ... believe can be fixed by next week
# [20:28] * darobin ArtB: re the pull request you asked me to look at this morning, I closed it because it was incorrect, but I made a new one fixing the bug and it has now been approved and merged
# [20:28] <adrianba> ... think we can resubmit it
# [20:29] <adrianba> ... not sure if the right people are in the room to sort out the sticky issue of origin of blob
# [20:29] <adrianba> ... we could fix by next week and CfC the week after
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# [20:29] <adrianba> ... any questions?
# [20:29] <adrianba> sicking: the one big issue other than the origin is how does close behave?
# [20:30] <adrianba> ... we have MSFT people here and they implemented close we should ask them
# [20:30] <adrianba> arunranga: there are a number of discussions about close
# [20:30] <adrianba> ... to me those seem solveable but nobody really implemented it yet
# [20:31] <adrianba> adrianba: can you summarise the bugs?
# [20:31] <adrianba> sicking: what happens to blob after you close
# [20:31] * Quits: horo (~horo@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [20:31] <adrianba> ... originally it was defined so that a lot of things would throw
# [20:31] <adrianba> ... now we've been moving in the direction of making fewer things throw
# [20:32] <adrianba> ... so if you try to read then it would give an error
# [20:32] <adrianba> ... the idea being that it creates fewer error conditions
# [20:32] <arunranga> adrianba, here are relevant bugs for you to study — https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25302, https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25241, https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25240
# [20:32] <arunranga> can someone minute adrianba? audio cuts out
# [20:34] <adrianba> adrianba: [summarise IE implementation - fail fast]
# [20:34] <adrianba> sicking: that was our original approach - but it gives more places for failure
# [20:35] <adrianba> arunranga: one of the current proposals was any time an async operation on a closed blob then you could work on a structured clone
# [20:35] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [20:35] <adrianba> ... the other thing is we wouldn't be throwing, we would just fail later as if the underlying file disappeared
# [20:36] <adrianba> ... so we would fail normally
# [20:36] <adrianba> sicking: would be great to get your attention on this
# [20:39] <adrianba> ... clarifies that cloning a closed blob would create another closed clone
# [20:39] <adrianba> adrianba: it sounds okay - it's not what we did but probably okay
# [20:39] <adrianba> arunranga: i will have fixes in place and commentary in the bugs
# [20:39] <adrianba> ... would be good if adrian looked at those bugs and spoke up
# [20:40] <adrianba> ... there are some bugs in File API that have dependencies on other things including WebIDL
# [20:40] <adrianba> ... maybe that is a caveat - agree with Art's plan
# [20:40] <adrianba> ... once that is in place can issue another CfC
# [20:40] <adrianba> ArtB: other than feedback from MSFT is there anything else you need?
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# [20:40] <adrianba> arunranga: jonas, is there anyone in the room to help with other issues?
# [20:41] <adrianba> sicking: for the origin we need adam barth and anne to help with that
# [20:41] <adrianba> arunranga: okay, then we should do FileSystem API
# [20:41] <ArtB> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24998 -> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24998
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# [20:41] <adrianba> arunranga: if we switch gears and talk about filesystem api
# [20:41] <ArtB> http://w3c.github.io/filesystem-api/Overview.html -> Filesystem API
# [20:42] <adrianba> ... EricU from Google - the Google API will be made into a Note
# [20:42] <adrianba> ... and we will work on FileSystem API as WebApps WG deliverable
# [20:42] <adrianba> ... then there would not be two API specs in group
# [20:42] <adrianba> ArtB: CfC to move the specs to WG Note ended and there were no objections - will publish this in the next week or two
# [20:43] <adrianba> arunranga: it would be nice to see if there is concrete implementer support for the FileSystem API outside Mozilla
# [20:43] <adrianba> ... including prioritisation of work
# [20:43] <adrianba> israelh: we're evaluating as part of planning for IE
# [20:43] * arunranga wants to know who the speaker is
# [20:43] <adrianba> ... wanted to get more information
# [20:44] <adrianba> ... i understood that Google was going to move to this
# [20:44] <adrianba> jsbell: we're looking at it
# [20:44] <jhazen> Speaker is Israel from MS
# [20:44] <adrianba> sicking: think Google didn't want to move until at least two other parties moving
# [20:44] * arunranga thanks. oh hai israelh
# [20:45] <adrianba> hober: we have to look again - was based on a strawman from maciej - will need to do a more thorough review
# [20:45] <adrianba> ArtB: do we want to move towards FPWD or let it sit for a while?
# [20:45] <adrianba> israelh: you have an implementation don't you?
# [20:45] <hober> s/we have to look again/overall we generally like the look of it/
# [20:45] <adrianba> sicking: we have two half implementations - something that we use in Firefox OS for reading SD card
# [20:46] <adrianba> ... early version that fed into what is here and now we're updating
# [20:46] <adrianba> ... not the sandbox thing like this
# [20:46] <ArtB> ACTION: barstow update WebApp's Draft charter to reflect Eric's File specs are moving to WG Notes
# [20:46] * RRSAgent records action 9
# [20:46] * @trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [20:46] <@trackbot> Created ACTION-722 - Update webapp's draft charter to reflect eric's file specs are moving to wg notes [on Arthur Barstow - due 2014-04-17].
# [20:46] <adrianba> ... we are eventually going to do sandbox file system, but not started yet
# [20:46] <Zakim> -arunranga
# [20:46] * arunranga GAH! redialing
# [20:46] <smaug> ArtB: ^
# [20:46] <adrianba> israelh: do we know how many sites use this based on Google's implementation?
# [20:47] <Zakim> +arunranga
# [20:47] <adrianba> AAA: google web sites use it
# [20:48] * dglazkov__ is now known as dglazkov
# [20:48] <adrianba> israelh: we're concerned about interop - is there enough usage to go back an implement the old one or are things converging on the new
# [20:48] <adrianba> ArtB: we agreed to stop working on the old one
# [20:48] <tyoshino> AAA = Taiju
# [20:48] <adrianba> israelh: how much continuing support will Google have for the old one
# [20:48] <adrianba> s/AAA:/Taiju:/
# [20:49] <adrianba> israelh: when will you have a more complete draft?
# [20:49] <adrianba> arunranga: i think i can probably do it in 2-3 weeks after finishing File API
# [20:49] <adrianba> ArtB: I like that priority
# [20:49] <adrianba> ... coming back to the editor's draft you do have out
# [20:50] <adrianba> ... are you expecting to add additional features?
# [20:50] <adrianba> ... looking for requests and requirements?
# [20:50] <adrianba> arunranga: no longer a question of features but of how spec'd features should work and how defined
# [20:50] <adrianba> ... if you look at the API from interface perspective then it gives good indication
# [20:50] <adrianba> ... raw API without prose
# [20:50] <adrianba> ... indication of shape but not detail
# [20:50] <adrianba> ... needs flesh on the skeleton
# [20:51] <adrianba> ArtB: includes use cases too which is handy for early review
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# [20:51] <adrianba> arunranga: use cases are similar or idential to the Google API use cases
# [20:51] <adrianba> ... it does very similar things
# [20:51] <adrianba> ... some things about Google API that we want to reverse engineer as part of this spec including, for example, file system url scheme
# [20:51] <adrianba> ... it is promises based instead of callback based system
# [20:52] <adrianba> ArtB: any other comments or questions?
# [20:52] <arunranga> cool :)
# [20:52] <adrianba> ArtB: looking forward to getting closure on the File API bugs
# [20:52] <adrianba> ... in the agenda we said we'd break for lunch at 12.30 but food is already available
# [20:53] * arunranga mmm lunch
# [20:53] <Zakim> -Bryan_Sullivan
# [20:53] <adrianba> ... resume at 1 - i'll adjust the schedule
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# [20:53] <arunranga> Present+ arunranga
# [20:54] <arunranga> oh hai cwilso__
# [20:54] <krisk> RRSAgent, generate minutes
# [20:54] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/10-webapps-minutes.html krisk
# [20:54] * arunranga oh hai slightlyoff_
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# [20:58] * ArtB bryan - Push AI is now 14:00 − 14:30 - is this OK?
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# [21:01] <arunranga> exit
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# [21:01] <chaals> zakim, agenda?
# [21:01] <Zakim> I see nothing on the agenda
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# [21:01] <Zakim> -arunranga
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# [22:00] <ArtB> zakim, who's here?
# [22:00] <Zakim> On the phone I see [Paypal], Olli_Pettay
# [22:00] <Zakim> On IRC I see rniwa, BenjamP, opoto, bryan, skddc, kochi, jcraig, xiaoqian, paul___irish, hayato, krijnhoetmer, tobie__, morrita, slightlyoff_, dfreedm_, anssik, cwilso__,
# [22:00] <Zakim> ... timeless_, jungkees, scheib__, jsbell, dcooney, wonsuk, dglazkov, cabanier__, krit, tyoshino, hober, falken, Domenic_, pdr__, gavin, astearns, plh, israelh, dsr, Bin_Hu, tzik,
# [22:00] <Zakim> ... jmajnert, smaug, jhazen, darobin, arrrno, RRSAgent, Zakim, adrianba, aizu, ArtB, lmclister, chaals, shepazu, jgraham, decadance, gsnedders, heycam, schuki, mounir, logbot,
# [22:00] <Zakim> ... stryx`, Hixie
# [22:00] <Zakim> + +1.425.264.aaaa
# [22:00] <bryan> zakim, aaaa is bryan
# [22:00] <Zakim> +bryan; got it
# [22:01] * ArtB bryan - glad you joined; we'll take Push API immediately after Service Workers
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# [22:02] * Joins: krisk (~krisk@public.cloak)
# [22:02] <krisk> scribe: krisk
# [22:03] <krisk> TOPIC: Service Workers
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# [22:03] <jungkees> http://slightlyoff.github.io/ServiceWorker/spec/service_worker/
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# [22:03] <jungkees> Working repo: https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker
# [22:03] <ArtB> http://rawgithub.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/master/spec/service_worker/index.html -> Service Workers
# [22:03] <krisk> group looking at spec posted above...
# [22:04] <krisk> a draft of service workers exist and we are hoping to have this a webapp working group project
# [22:04] <falken> better formatting: http://slightlyoff.github.io/ServiceWorker/spec/service_worker/index.html
# [22:05] <krisk> ..since a number of people can participate more in this group than when just on github
# [22:05] <krisk> israelh: We have concerns about perf, additonal requests for example
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# [22:05] <krisk> alex: one pattern we have observed is that webdevs try to preempty this issue
# [22:06] <Zakim> -Olli_Pettay
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# [22:06] <krisk> alex: we are aware and want to get feedback from webdevs and have a number of google props that value performance
# [22:06] <krisk> ..it's a choice of the userAgent to use a service work or not
# [22:07] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [22:07] <smaug> Zakim, [IPcaller] is Olli_Pettay
# [22:07] <Zakim> +Olli_Pettay; got it
# [22:07] <krisk> ..so a useragent can choose not to use a service worker (under memory pressure)
# [22:07] <krisk> ..and it's all async
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# [22:07] <krisk> ..so once the intial event is fired it can't block since it's async
# [22:08] <krisk> ..so that background processing can do the work
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# [22:08] <krisk> ..we have removed all sync apis - xhr, indexeddb
# [22:09] <krisk> ..you can send work to the service worker to help
# [22:09] <krisk> ..you can warm up dns w/o a service worker
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# [22:09] <krisk> ..we think we have done a good first pass on perf and want to get good data from real systems and then do another pass
# [22:09] <krisk> ..we have options but need more use cases
# [22:10] <krisk> ...For example a lifetime header you could help
# [22:11] <krisk> ..Further we have discussed creating a map or longer term cache, but are not planning for this api in V1
# [22:11] <krisk> ..we can imagine a few scenarios, ask for online then upon fail use offline..
# [22:12] <krisk> ..but we have at google incountered that http status codes didn't help make this call
# [22:12] <krisk> israelh: Where are you keeping this possible plans for the future?
# [22:12] <krisk> alex: The spec text is mostly normative, maybe a seperate doc in github
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# [22:13] <krisk> israel: how does this work with appcache?
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# [22:13] <krisk> alex: We don't know what will have as service work gains adoption and appcache remains flat
# [22:13] <krisk> ..one could be that no app cache if service work
# [22:14] <krisk> ..another could be that app cache gets first access
# [22:14] <krisk> israel: I was wondering about how other eventing could plug in?
# [22:15] <krisk> alex: I want to be very clear that the service worker will have normative requirement about the events
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# [22:15] <krisk> ..web sites should work with or without a service work
# [22:15] <krisk> ..we hope that others can write mixins
# [22:15] <krisk> ..we have a bug that will explain how to add a no-opt event
# [22:16] <krisk> ..we think this would be an attractive spot for other specs that would want to do background work
# [22:16] <krisk> ..for v1 we expect to move others out (fetch)
# [22:16] * genelian_ slaps wonsuk around a bit with a large fishbot
# [22:16] <krisk> alex: any other qs?
# [22:16] <krisk> israel: when is the right time to get plugged in?
# [22:17] <krisk> alex: we have list of issues, but we are not blocked on anything
# [22:17] <krisk> ..once the wg declares this is a formal activity we can start talking
# [22:17] <krisk> hober: what about fixme?
# [22:17] <krisk> alex: I think we are in good shape..
# [22:18] * cwilso__ *wakes up* OH HAI arunranga!
# [22:18] <krisk> artb: We think that this is part of app cache and is in scope and will be expanded in the next charter
# [22:18] <krisk> ..so that we could indeed publish a FPWD in webapps
# [22:18] <krisk> artb: any disagreement?
# [22:19] <krisk> artb: If anyone objects to doing this publish?
# [22:19] <krisk> ACTION: artb CFC for FPWD for service workers
# [22:19] * @trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [22:19] * RRSAgent records action 10
# [22:19] <@trackbot> Created ACTION-723 - Cfc for fpwd for service workers [on Arthur Barstow - due 2014-04-17].
# [22:19] <krisk> ..no one objects
# [22:19] <krisk> israel: what about media ones?
# [22:20] <krisk> alex: we have a few ones (rtc, websocket)...
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# [22:20] <krisk> ..we have a design challenge here to handle this types..
# [22:20] <krisk> ..hopefully as the stream apis expand they could be used in another manner
# [22:21] <krisk> ..we fought really hard about promises at tc39, whatwg and this took much longer and am happy to let someone else fight this battle
# [22:22] <krisk> artb: any more comments of questions about service workers?
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# [22:22] <krisk> israel: Are you sharing code with Moz?
# [22:22] <krisk> alex: no only working on the design
# [22:23] <krisk> artb: if nothing else on service workers let's move on..
# [22:23] <krisk> TOPIC: PUSH API
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# [22:23] <ArtB> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/push/raw-file/tip/index.html -> Push API
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# [22:24] <krisk> bryan: The current editor draft...
# [22:24] <adrianba> zakim, code?
# [22:24] <Zakim> the conference code is 9274 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), adrianba
# [22:24] * mounir changes topic to 'the conference code is 9274'
# [22:25] <krisk> * zakim be nice to bryan...
# [22:25] <Zakim> +Bryan_Sullivan
# [22:25] <Zakim> -bryan
# [22:25] <krisk> * thank you zakim..
# [22:25] <krisk> bryan: Their are a number of changes that I listed in the email
# [22:26] <ArtB> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2014AprJun/0108.html -> Bryan's Push API status
# [22:26] <krisk> Some of the discussion were offline with moz, google
# [22:26] <krisk> ..some are old from last tpac
# [22:26] <krisk> ..in the mean time we have shelved some items..
# [22:26] <krisk> ..add message body
# [22:27] <krisk> ..discussion about supporting other systems but not change the api
# [22:27] <krisk> ..I can go over the changes or introduce them right now
# [22:27] <ArtB> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=WebAppsWG&component=Push%20API&;resolution=--- -> Bugs for Push API
# [22:28] <krisk> sicking: I think we should talk about issue with the spec, since walking through each item would take a long time
# [22:28] <krisk> bryan: I have started to add service work useage
# [22:29] <krisk> ..I added persistance to registration from TAG feedback
# [22:29] <krisk> ..and some other TAG feedback (express permission)
# [22:30] <krisk> ..does anyone have any comments on this draft spec?
# [22:30] <sicking> q+
# [22:30] * Zakim sees sicking on the speaker queue
# [22:30] <krisk> israel: Can you explain how push api uses/relates to service worker
# [22:30] <krisk> alex: We don't want a page to live longer that the page is visible
# [22:31] <krisk> ..push should only run when browser is shutdown
# [22:31] <krisk> ..when we surface a push to a tab
# [22:31] <mounir> q+ to point that registerOptions should be defined
# [22:31] * Zakim sees sicking, mounir on the speaker queue
# [22:31] <krisk> ..the service work allows use to support both scenarios
# [22:32] <krisk> ..for example should an IFRAME be able to reg for push events?
# [22:32] <krisk> ..this is a good question that I don't think we'll figureout today
# [22:33] <krisk> israel: From what I was reading, when the app is not running, page loaded the service work acts as a proxy and does the work and waits until UI
# [22:33] <MikeSmith> q?
# [22:33] * Zakim sees sicking, mounir on the speaker queue
# [22:34] <MikeSmith> ArtB, queue
# [22:34] <krisk> alex: you could image that you could provide an alert then possibly open/launch the app
# [22:34] <krisk> alex: this should be ua dependent
# [22:34] <sicking> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2014JanMar/0712.html
# [22:34] <krisk> ack sicking
# [22:34] * Zakim sees mounir on the speaker queue
# [22:34] <krisk> sicking: I just sent to the list (week ago)
# [22:35] <krisk> ..on the topic of passing additonal things to the service call
# [22:35] <krisk> ..we have concerns with this..
# [22:36] <krisk> ..we have a client side api that we are working on standardized an the server side stopped.
# [22:36] <krisk> ..later we had not use a standard for client side api
# [22:36] <krisk> ...so it seem that this is not really getting standardized
# [22:37] <krisk> alex: Some push api's require meta data to not get overloaded
# [22:37] <bryan> I would not say that we have given up on standardizing the Push Server API, the message I got from discussions is that this does not seem a short-term opportunity for some operators of Push services.
# [22:37] <krisk> ..how is moz going to deal with this?
# [22:37] <krisk> sicking: I can comment on how this would work on android
# [22:38] <mounir> q- mounir
# [22:38] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [22:38] <hober> s/can comment/can't comment/
# [22:38] <krisk> sicking: the current solution is not a standard, apis are diff and a dev has to use different apis for different devices
# [22:39] <krisk> alex: chrome for iOS will use an apple environment, but on android it will be differenet
# [22:39] <krisk> sicking: I don't see how this is a standard solution
# [22:39] <krisk> alex: sure it is
# [22:39] <bryan> q+ to ask jonas, by "different APIs", I guess you mean different end-to-end system designs, not the API exposed in the browser, correct?
# [22:39] * Zakim sees bryan on the speaker queue
# [22:40] * plh gets his stick out
# [22:40] * plh :)
# [22:40] <krisk> sicking: it doesn't seem we are creating a standard that is actually a standard
# [22:41] <krisk> alex: the registration call is optional and ua dependant
# [22:42] <bryan> IMO the detailed variance in the configuration parameters of different systems is analogous to the codec issue in HTML5 video or WebRTC - the API is a mechanism to expose a particular media, in this case a delivery system, that may differ in details opaque to the API, and do in fact require different app/content designs per browser - that is not a show stopper for HTML5, why should it be for
# [22:42] <bryan> this API?
# [22:42] <krisk> alex: I'd like to hear how you are doing this on android
# [22:43] <krisk> sicking: I'll have someone follow back with this feedback, the person was not able to attend
# [22:43] <sicking> q+
# [22:43] * Zakim sees bryan, sicking on the speaker queue
# [22:43] <krisk> ack mounir
# [22:43] * Zakim sees bryan, sicking on the speaker queue
# [22:43] <krisk> ack bryan
# [22:43] <Zakim> bryan, you wanted to ask jonas, by "different APIs", I guess you mean different end-to-end system designs, not the API exposed in the browser, correct?
# [22:43] * Zakim sees sicking on the speaker queue
# [22:43] <krisk> bryan: what do you mean by different apis?
# [22:43] <krisk> ..see my comment in IRC above..
# [22:44] <krisk> ..the systems in place won't get changed right away
# [22:44] <krisk> ..we have apis' that are standardized an will require devs to adopt and change
# [22:44] <krisk> ..html5 video is a good example that we should follow
# [22:45] <krisk> sicking: I'm not just talking about northbound api
# [22:45] <krisk> ..I'm taking about southbound apis
# [22:45] * Joins: skddc_ (~anonymous@public.cloak)
# [22:45] <krisk> ..since they now also have to have different apis
# [22:45] <krisk> bryan: in the browser
# [22:45] <krisk> sicking: yes
# [22:45] <krisk> alex: are you proposing something?
# [22:46] <krisk> sicking: we had a proposal and it got shot down.
# [22:46] <krisk> ..we decided to start with the client side (browser) to start and then it got worse and required this to be changed again
# [22:46] <krisk> ..which is sad because client side javascript apis have to be different code
# [22:47] <krisk> alex: to be clear this in on different systems
# [22:47] <krisk> bryan: how do you see that these are different
# [22:48] <krisk> alex: we have a number of these
# [22:48] * Quits: skddc (~anonymous@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [22:48] * skddc_ is now known as skddc
# [22:48] <krisk> ..systems
# [22:49] <krisk> sicking: how does this new stuff add value as what we had in the past
# [22:49] <krisk> sicking: different ua's need different stuff to be passed in and required argument is need and will be different
# [22:50] <krisk> alex: maybe we can have something off navigator
# [22:50] <krisk> sicking: you'll still end up with differences..
# [22:50] <krisk> alex: having a standard that covers a large portion in mostly the same way has alot of value
# [22:51] <krisk> mounir: we are looking to not having to call register
# [22:51] <krisk> sicking: at least then we would accomplish something
# [22:51] <mounir> s/to call register/to pass a sender id/
# [22:51] <krisk> alex: if we all agree that what you propose then great
# [22:52] <smaug> (html5 video is bad example to follow. It has been a great mess.)
# [22:52] <krisk> sicking: we are building something that is not a standard and will have to have a big case statement
# [22:52] <krisk> alex: I agree though in the short term this is a good start
# [22:53] <krisk> hober: He is asking how this improves over the status quo
# [22:53] * mounir smaug +1
# [22:53] <Hixie> smaug++
# [22:54] <Hixie> smaug: (side note: please tell the <picture> guys that!)
# [22:54] <bryan> q+ to ask Jonas again, to enumerate what will be the big differences in how developers will need to use the API, that would prevent it from being viewed as a "standard"
# [22:54] * Zakim sees sicking, bryan on the speaker queue
# [22:54] <krisk> how would one right tests if test has to support different calls for each browser
# [22:55] <krisk> alex: it's about a better future direction which would at some point require no need to call register
# [22:55] <krisk> israel: It sounds like you have figure out who and what is supported and then make the calls.
# [22:56] <krisk> sicking: It seem that this has no value and we should just tell webdev everyone is differend and to expect to use diff calls
# [22:57] <krisk> hober: what I hear sicking saying is that it seems that we don't need to standardized this small bit given all the other parts are not standardized
# [22:59] <krisk> bryan: I disagree, we do this in other parts...
# [22:59] * slightlyoff_ is now known as slightlyoff
# [22:59] <krisk> sicking: this api has three parts most complex is the server side
# [22:59] <krisk> ..next is the registration part..
# [22:59] <krisk> we are giving up on standardizing these two..
# [22:59] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
# [22:59] <krisk> ..and now that we are giving up the last one..
# [23:00] <krisk> sicking: I agree that this is alot like html video
# [23:00] <krisk> ..but it's not working in practice and it's resulting in no video, less video or webdevs resorting to using flash
# [23:00] <ArtB> q+ re time check
# [23:00] * Zakim sees sicking, bryan, ArtB on the speaker queue
# [23:01] * Quits: jinsong (wjs@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [23:01] <krisk> sicking: But in the video spec the api is quite large and works across various browser
# [23:01] * Joins: wjs (wjs@public.cloak)
# [23:02] <krisk> sicking: if it was truely optional and would work then I would be OK
# [23:02] <krisk> sicking: To be clear it needs to work
# [23:02] <krisk> alex: well you can call it but it will fail
# [23:02] <krisk> people laugh..
# [23:03] <krisk> sicking: the registration calls are a problem
# [23:03] <krisk> artb: we have exceed the time for this topic so lets wrap it up...
# [23:03] <krisk> sicking: you have 30 seconds, alex 30 seconds..
# [23:04] <krisk> artb: thanks and continue on mail list and bugzilla
# [23:04] <krisk> rrsagent, generate minutes
# [23:04] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/10-webapps-minutes.html krisk
# [23:05] <bryan> The registerOptions and body are both optional in the current draft - they are intended to be truly that and if there is any reason this optionality is suspect or a problem for developers, let's clarify how. At this point I see little if any problem with the variance in systems between browsers.
# [23:05] <ArtB> http://w3c.github.io/manifest/ -> Manifest spec
# [23:05] <krisk> TOPIC: Manifest For Web Apps
# [23:06] <krisk> marcos: I wanted to open this up for questions
# [23:06] <krisk> ..we are looking at this as an enhancment for webapps
# [23:07] <krisk> ..basically give you base metadata for the app (icons, pin to screen)
# [23:07] <krisk> Looking at example 1
# [23:07] <krisk> marcos: it has icons, start url, display (fullscreen)
# [23:07] <krisk> ..it's just json
# [23:07] <Zakim> -Bryan_Sullivan
# [23:07] <krisk> ..this is where we are at right now..
# [23:07] <Zakim> +bryan
# [23:08] <Zakim> + +1.650.946.aabb
# [23:08] <krisk> ..the idea of progressing this and open to new asks
# [23:08] <Bin_Hu> zakim, aabb is me
# [23:08] <Zakim> +Bin_Hu; got it
# [23:08] <krisk> ..we have tried to keep this simple and it's about as simple as possile
# [23:08] <krisk> s/possile/possible/
# [23:09] <krisk> ..builds upon metatags from Opera/IE
# [23:09] <krisk> ..also provides fall back to legacy items..
# [23:10] <krisk> jhazen: Microsoft/IE is indeed looking at this and we are intrested in these scenarios and more (pinning)
# [23:11] <krisk> ...but also for packaged webapp from the Store on Windows
# [23:11] <krisk> ..at first I think oh yeah and could see adding more items
# [23:11] <tantek> just added rel=manifest as defined in w3c.github.io/manifest section 5.12 to the HTML rel registry: http://microformats.org/wiki/existing-rel-values#HTML5_link_type_extensions
# [23:11] <genelian_> link: http://w3c.github.io/manifest/
# [23:11] <krisk> ..I think we need to get agreement on some more items that would be needed
# [23:11] <sicking> q+
# [23:11] * Zakim sees sicking, bryan, ArtB on the speaker queue
# [23:12] <krisk> israel: do you expect other extensions to be listed?
# [23:12] <krisk> marcos: yes
# [23:12] <mounir> q+ to say that Google has plans to implement manifest in Blink
# [23:12] * Zakim sees sicking, bryan, ArtB, mounir on the speaker queue
# [23:13] <bryan> q-
# [23:13] * Zakim sees sicking, ArtB, mounir on the speaker queue
# [23:13] * Joins: KenjiBX (~KenjiBX@public.cloak)
# [23:13] <krisk> marcos: I think we need to cover sync - store manifest vs site manifest
# [23:14] <krisk> jhazen: we would rather have this be on the website and have the 'store' suck in this information
# [23:15] <ArtB> q-
# [23:15] * Zakim sees sicking, mounir on the speaker queue
# [23:15] <krisk> ..not sure how the 'store' platforms work but this seems like the best approach
# [23:15] <chaals> [chaals wonders why we need to handle the store/live content synching, rather than let that be an implementation detail for stores]
# [23:16] <krisk> benjamp: It seem that if it's in both then it's going to get messy
# [23:16] <krisk> marcos: that is why we want to work together
# [23:16] <krisk> ack sicking
# [23:16] * Zakim sees mounir on the speaker queue
# [23:16] <krisk> sicking: I wanted to share our plans for this manifest
# [23:16] <krisk> ..we have a store with a manifest version and will update our store with this format
# [23:17] <krisk> ..you need to send our store your manifest
# [23:17] <krisk> ..I'm not sure when/how we re-download this manifest
# [23:17] <krisk> ..but we want to have out package apps to have the same manifests
# [23:17] <chaals> [Sure it gets messy in principle, but that's the store's problem as a trade-off for collecting and reproducing information in the first place (assuming that the store does some kind of checking, and only reflects checked content).]
# [23:18] <krisk> ..we tried in sysapps to standardize the full end to end scenarion and it became to complex so are starting from a smaller use case
# [23:18] <krisk> jhazen: that is our plan
# [23:19] <krisk> sicking: indeed this is not fully enough but is a good start
# [23:19] <sicking> q-
# [23:19] * Zakim sees mounir on the speaker queue
# [23:19] * Joins: KenjiBX_ (~KenjiBX@public.cloak)
# [23:19] <krisk> ack mounir
# [23:19] <Zakim> mounir, you wanted to say that Google has plans to implement manifest in Blink
# [23:19] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [23:19] <krisk> marcos: see the readme it has the v2 goals
# [23:19] * Quits: arunranga (~arunranga@public.cloak) (arunranga)
# [23:20] <krisk> artb: one question - the editor doesn't have a link on where to participate?
# [23:20] <chaals> [The widget update spec essentially dealt with this problem, too. Maybe you could copy/paste that for JSON, and then the store's synch becomes a case of what to do with changes and how often to poll (which are implementation decisions, although the latter is presumably related to normal cache management…)]
# [23:20] <krisk> marcos: github?
# [23:20] * Quits: KenjiBX (~KenjiBX@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [23:20] <krisk> sicking: public-webapps would be fine
# [23:20] <krisk> marcos: sure I'll update this..
# [23:20] <ArtB> q?
# [23:20] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [23:20] <ArtB> zakim, who's here?
# [23:20] <Zakim> On the phone I see [Paypal], Olli_Pettay, bryan, Bin_Hu
# [23:20] <krisk> artb: seems like we have alot of excitement about this stuff!
# [23:20] <Zakim> On IRC I see KenjiBX_, wjs, skddc, sicking, Ferasm, horo, alia, tantek, genelian_, kochi_w3c, nhiroki, zqzhang, krisk, lgombos, rniwa, BenjamP, opoto, bryan, kochi, jcraig,
# [23:20] <Zakim> ... xiaoqian, paul___irish, hayato, krijnhoetmer, tobie__, morrita, slightlyoff, dfreedm_, anssik, cwilso__, timeless_, jungkees, scheib__, jsbell, dcooney, wonsuk, dglazkov,
# [23:21] <Zakim> ... cabanier__, krit, tyoshino, hober, falken, Domenic_, pdr__, gavin, astearns, plh, israelh, dsr, Bin_Hu, tzik, jmajnert, smaug, jhazen, darobin, arrrno, RRSAgent, Zakim,
# [23:21] <Zakim> ... adrianba, aizu, ArtB
# [23:21] <krisk> artb: looks like we are all done with this topic for the day..
# [23:21] <krisk> we'll have coffe now until 3pm
# [23:22] <krisk> zakim, generate minutes
# [23:22] <Zakim> I don't understand 'generate minutes', krisk
# [23:22] <chaals> rrsagent, draft minutes
# [23:22] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/10-webapps-minutes.html chaals
# [23:22] * dglazkov escaped the wifi troubles and sweaty conditions and is sitting in a comfy office chair at his desk. Not to be confused with being absent.
# [23:22] <Zakim> -Olli_Pettay
# [23:22] <krisk> * thanks chaals - doah!
# [23:22] <Zakim> -Bin_Hu
# [23:22] * chaals is sitting with his foot up in Madrid. Wishing he could put it down a bit more...
# [23:23] <Zakim> -bryan
# [23:23] * Yves chaals that doesn't count to be on zakim's queue
# [23:25] * chaals doesn't often want to be on the queue. But when I do, I put my foot down
# [23:25] * Yves :)
# [23:26] * Quits: genelian_ (~genelian@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [23:27] <ArtB> Present+ Chris_Wilson, Alex_Russell, Chaals_Neville(remote), Joshua_Bell, Ted_OConnor
# [23:27] * Quits: alia (~alia@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [23:28] * Quits: lgombos (~lgombos@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [23:28] * Quits: opoto (~d871a887@public.cloak) ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client")
# [23:29] * Quits: horo (~horo@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [23:29] * Quits: krisk (~krisk@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [23:30] * Quits: wjs (wjs@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [23:32] <darobin> rniwa: for calendaring reference, this is fun :) http://www.amazon.com/Calendrical-Calculations-Nachum-Dershowitz-ebook/dp/B00GA22KBE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1397165334&sr=8-1&keywords=calendar+algorithms
# [23:37] * Quits: anssik (~uid10742@public.cloak) ("Connection closed for inactivity")
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# [23:40] * Joins: arunranga (~arunranga@public.cloak)
# [23:42] * Quits: kochi_w3c (~kochi_w3c@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [23:44] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [23:44] * Joins: richt (~richt@public.cloak)
# [23:50] * Quits: arunranga (~arunranga@public.cloak) (arunranga)
# [23:54] * Joins: arunranga (~arunranga@public.cloak)
# [23:55] * Joins: horo (~horo@public.cloak)
# [23:57] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [23:57] <smaug> Zakim, [IPcaller] is Olli_Pettay
# [23:57] <Zakim> +Olli_Pettay; got it
# [23:59] <Zakim> +bryan
# Session Close: Fri Apr 11 00:00:01 2014

The end :)