/irc-logs / w3c / #webapps / 2014-06-06 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #webapps
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  64. # [15:35] <darobin> ArtB: did you get patent commitments from Piotr?
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  66. # [15:36] <ArtB> darobin - the form says to snail mail it to Ralph
  67. # [15:37] <ArtB> I haven't received anything
  68. # [15:37] <ArtB> darobin, will you attend today's editing call (I have a conflict)
  69. # [15:37] <darobin> ArtB: oh, wow
  70. # [15:37] <darobin> yes, I will
  71. # [15:38] <ArtB> yeah, I was surprised by that (perhaps there some legal reason a signature is needed?)
  72. # [15:40] * ArtB changes topic to 'WebApps WG; Editing call June 6 @ 11:00 Boston time; Logistics and Agenda @ http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2014AprJun/0793.html ; PIN = 9274#'
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  86. # [16:51] <darobin> trackbot: start meeting
  87. # [16:51] * trackbot is preparing a teleconference.
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  89. # [16:51] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/06/06-webapps-irc
  90. # [16:51] <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
  91. # [16:51] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot
  92. # [16:51] * Joins: Zakim (zakim@public.cloak)
  93. # [16:51] <trackbot> Zakim, this will be DOM3
  94. # [16:51] <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
  95. # [16:51] <trackbot> Meeting: Web Applications Working Group Teleconference
  96. # [16:51] <trackbot> Date: 06 June 2014
  97. # [16:51] <darobin> Zakim, this will be webapps
  98. # [16:51] <Zakim> ok, darobin; I see IA_WebApps()11:00AM scheduled to start in 9 minutes
  99. # [16:52] <darobin> Chair: darobin
  100. # [16:52] <darobin> Scribe: darobin
  101. # [16:52] <darobin> Present+ Robin_Berjon
  102. # [16:52] * Joins: adrianba (~adrianba@public.cloak)
  103. # [16:53] <Zakim> IA_WebApps()11:00AM has now started
  104. # [16:53] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  105. # [16:53] <darobin> you're a bit early on the call :)
  106. # [16:53] <BenjamP> yes
  107. # [16:53] <adrianba> zakim, [Microsoft] is BenjamP
  108. # [16:53] <Zakim> +BenjamP; got it
  109. # [16:54] <darobin> adrianba: are you on the call too?
  110. # [16:54] <adrianba> not yet
  111. # [16:54] <adrianba> 6 more minutes ;)
  112. # [16:54] <adrianba> you don't need to hear me slurp my coffee
  113. # [16:54] <darobin> FWIW I flagged myself as chair, but that's just formalism; no pretence to whatever
  114. # [16:54] <Zakim> +??P1
  115. # [16:54] <darobin> and if someone else desperately feels like scribing I won't stand in the way
  116. # [16:55] <BenjamP> it's all you:) thanks!
  117. # [16:55] <PiotrekKoszulinski> I guess ??P1 is me. Should I ask Zakim to change my name?
  118. # [16:56] <Zakim> + +1.415.736.aaaa
  119. # [16:56] <darobin> Zakim, ??P1 is PiotrekKoszulinski
  120. # [16:56] <Zakim> +PiotrekKoszulinski; got it
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  123. # [16:57] * Joins: dom (dom@public.cloak)
  124. # [16:57] <xiaoqian> zakim, call xiaoqian-mobile
  125. # [16:57] <Zakim> ok, xiaoqian; the call is being made
  126. # [16:57] <Zakim> +Xiaoqian
  127. # [16:57] * Travis just woke up....<yawn>
  128. # [16:59] <jparent_> Zakim, 1.415.736.aaaa is jparent_
  129. # [16:59] <Zakim> sorry, jparent_, I do not recognize a party named '1.415.736.aaaa'
  130. # [16:59] <jparent_> Zakim, +1.415.736.aaaa is jparent_
  131. # [16:59] <Zakim> +jparent_; got it
  132. # [16:59] <darobin> Zakim, code?
  133. # [16:59] <Zakim> the conference code is 9274 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), darobin
  134. # [16:59] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  135. # [16:59] <darobin> Zakim, [ is me
  136. # [17:00] <Zakim> +darobin; got it
  137. # [17:00] <darobin> Zakim, who is here?
  138. # [17:00] <Zakim> On the phone I see BenjamP, PiotrekKoszulinski, jparent_, Xiaoqian, darobin
  139. # [17:00] <Zakim> On IRC I see dom, Travis, adrianba, Zakim, RRSAgent, lgombos, jparent_, fjh, lmclister, BenjamP, smaug, skddc, xiaoqian, PiotrekKoszulinski, darobin, jparent, hober, tyoshino,
  140. # [17:00] <Zakim> ... stryx`, dcooney__, paul___irish, gavin, ed, heycam|away, kochi1, kochi, mounir, logbot, terri, Hixie, krijnhoetmer, shepazu, kentaromiura, schuki, timeless_, hayato, dfreedm,
  141. # [17:00] <Zakim> ... scheib___, slightlyoff, cwilso, FerasM_, astearns, tobie_, dglazkov, jsbell, cabanier, Domenic, esprehn, pdr, MikeSmith, krit, gsnedders, trackbot, Yves, decadance, jgraham
  142. # [17:00] <Zakim> + +1.425.614.aabb
  143. # [17:00] <adrianba> zakim, aabb is me
  144. # [17:00] <Zakim> +adrianba; got it
  145. # [17:01] <darobin> Robin: W3C
  146. # [17:01] <BenjamP> Explainer is currently at http://w3c.github.io/editing-explainer/commands-explainer.html
  147. # [17:02] * adrianba darobin, thanks for scribing
  148. # [17:03] <darobin> BenjamP: from Microsoft, wrote the commands explainer
  149. # [17:03] <darobin> PiotrekKoszulinski: CKEditor
  150. # [17:03] <darobin> jparent_: Google, worked on text editro
  151. # [17:03] <darobin> xiaoqian: W3C
  152. # [17:03] <darobin> adrianba: Microsoft too
  153. # [17:04] <darobin> BenjamP: want to give some context, goals we have, then have a few topics of debate: invoking commands, using cE=minimal or have it as a concept, beforeinput vs commandevent, and command data context
  154. # [17:04] <darobin> ... very open to other things
  155. # [17:05] <darobin> Robin: would like to list issues and get away with some sort of plan
  156. # [17:05] <darobin> BenjamP: anything else?
  157. # [17:05] <darobin> Topic: Context
  158. # [17:06] <darobin> BenjamP: cEmin is something that came up in a meeting earlier this year
  159. # [17:06] <darobin> ... both MS and Google had thought of it
  160. # [17:06] <darobin> ... looking for a way to minify cE to have few or no default handling, bold, enter, etc.
  161. # [17:06] <darobin> ... in order to help sites figure out what users are trying to do Command,IntentionEvent were a way to figure out what users are trying to do
  162. # [17:07] <darobin> ... finally I just recently sent something about query command that can enable overwriting of commands by frameworks
  163. # [17:07] <darobin> ... and help browser determine UI
  164. # [17:07] <darobin> ... that's farther-reaching and possibly out of scope for right now
  165. # [17:08] <darobin> Robin: this is in line with the Summit findings, and we'd like to have another Summit in Berlin in September, and have editing be discussed there
  166. # [17:09] <darobin> PiotrekKoszulinski: that would be great, we're based in Poland, other editors are also in Europe
  167. # [17:09] <darobin> Topic: Goals
  168. # [17:09] <darobin> BenjamP: let's make sure we agree on what we're trying to accomplish
  169. # [17:09] <darobin> ... simplify all the different ways that input can be done for editing
  170. # [17:10] <darobin> ... assist sites in disabling default input so that they can do exactly what they want to do for their context
  171. # [17:10] <darobin> Robin: we have to take i18n into account, which is difficult but part of input
  172. # [17:10] <darobin> BenjamP: definitely, especially keyboard, browsers can make that available to script
  173. # [17:10] <adrianba> q+
  174. # [17:10] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
  175. # [17:10] <darobin> Topic: Invoking Commands
  176. # [17:11] <darobin> BenjamP: discuss using execCommand, since it takes string, it's extensible
  177. # [17:11] <darobin> ... if we want to fire a command event for stuff we don't support we can just use any string
  178. # [17:11] <darobin> ... perhaps more web friendly, notably with selection, which in turn can fire an event
  179. # [17:12] <darobin> ... instead of having a generic method that takes a string, you have a specific method
  180. # [17:12] <darobin> ... same as with Clipboard
  181. # [17:12] <darobin> ... lots of discussion there
  182. # [17:12] <darobin> ... how do we determine best way forward
  183. # [17:12] <xiaoqian> ack adrianba
  184. # [17:12] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  185. # [17:13] <darobin> adrianba: are we aligned with the notion of the extensible web manifesto in terms of adding the lowest-level primitives?
  186. # [17:13] <darobin> ... I think it's what most of the people engaged in the conversation want
  187. # [17:13] <darobin> ... especially since the people with experience doing editing tools seem to lean this way
  188. # [17:14] <darobin> ... but I have heard from a few people both at MS and glazou who wanted more of a "better cE" that would make it easy to add input type=rich
  189. # [17:14] <darobin> ... I'm guessing that's not what we're trying to do
  190. # [17:15] <darobin> ... one way forward trying to figure out whether we have the most basic thing we can add, keep finding primitives
  191. # [17:16] <darobin> Robin: I think that's pretty representative of what I've heard
  192. # [17:16] <darobin> ... it's possible to also improve cE, but that can be a separate project
  193. # [17:16] <darobin> BenjamP: my understanding is that cE is just one type of editor
  194. # [17:16] <darobin> ... and since there are so many editors, so just one option doesn't cut it
  195. # [17:17] <darobin> http://extensiblewebmanifesto.org/
  196. # [17:17] <darobin> ... I agree with this goal, it has come up more than once, just having the enabling primitives and help make things simpler
  197. # [17:18] <darobin> BenjamP: for execCommand, the 2nd arg is almost never used, we can't just remove it, at least not at this point
  198. # [17:18] <darobin> ... but my proposal is that we keep the first arg, and the 2nd can be (boolean or DOMObject)
  199. # [17:18] <darobin> ... alternatively we could have another method
  200. # [17:19] <darobin> jparent_: I'm having a hard time figuring how this fits into just enabling primitives
  201. # [17:19] <darobin> BenjamP: sure, we are primarily enabling sites to understand what users wants to do
  202. # [17:19] <darobin> ... so if a site wants to change what Ctrl-B does, the site can intercept that and replace that with their own
  203. # [17:20] <darobin> ... without that, they can't use the same pipeline
  204. # [17:20] <darobin> ... they can listen to bold and override
  205. # [17:22] <darobin> Robin: I am not convinced that we need something as high-level as bold
  206. # [17:22] <darobin> jparent_: I completely agree with that, it's already complicated
  207. # [17:22] <darobin> ... could be strong, b, etc.
  208. # [17:23] <darobin> BenjamP: I think that's two things
  209. # [17:23] <darobin> ... we shouldn't define bold
  210. # [17:23] <darobin> ... we just give the user the fact that the user intends to bold
  211. # [17:23] <darobin> ... notably cross language
  212. # [17:24] <darobin> Robin: I don't disagree that there are locale-dependent shortcuts but something like bold seems too high level to me
  213. # [17:25] <darobin> ... I'd like to solve lower level like selection, newline, delete
  214. # [17:25] <darobin> BenjamP: how would we expose those?
  215. # [17:27] <darobin> Robin: so you could have multiple newline events (Enter vs newline), and delete would match platform convention to a range that would then be communicated to the script
  216. # [17:27] <darobin> BenjamP: interception of selection for special deletion
  217. # [17:28] <darobin> Robin: it would help to have some code
  218. # [17:28] <darobin> BenjamP: if we just give the selection I think we've lost the context of where the user was, we lose the intent
  219. # [17:29] <darobin> PiotrekKoszulinski: I think that Fx has an example, you can take the range from the Drop event — I'd like to have that on deletion events
  220. # [17:29] <darobin> ... I think this is the best way to handle this
  221. # [17:29] <darobin> ... the event has to carry the range before there's a change
  222. # [17:30] <darobin> Robin: if the selection hasn't changed when you get the deletion event, you can probably infer a lot
  223. # [17:30] <darobin> BenjamP: sounds like we want to solve a few lower-level problems before we figure out the APIs, which makes sense
  224. # [17:30] * Joins: Travis_ (~Travis@public.cloak)
  225. # [17:30] <darobin> ... a smaller set of commands sounds like what everyone is interested in
  226. # [17:30] <darobin> [no disagreement]
  227. # [17:31] <darobin> BenjamP: also, the expected state carried in the command, current state is already availabel
  228. # [17:31] <darobin> Topic: cE=minimal
  229. # [17:31] <darobin> BenjamP: that was the original concept that started the discussion
  230. # [17:31] <darobin> ... but then jparent_ pointed out that you can cancel intention events, and cancelling them all just gives you a minimal
  231. # [17:32] <darobin> ... so we might not need the markup
  232. # [17:32] <darobin> jparent_: I don't think we need it
  233. # [17:32] <darobin> ... minimal wants two things: get a cursor, and advanced events
  234. # [17:32] <darobin> ... I don't need they need to be tied to editability
  235. # [17:32] * Quits: Travis (~Travis@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  236. # [17:33] <darobin> Robin: so we could reuse those events, e.g. for non text edition you could have deletion
  237. # [17:33] <darobin> jparent_: exactly, for things other than text
  238. # [17:33] <darobin> BenjamP: we have to be careful not to enable a new way to code websites
  239. # [17:34] <darobin> ... if they become so powerful then everything that a user is trying to do might be handled that way
  240. # [17:34] <darobin> ... we should have the kitchen sink
  241. # [17:35] <darobin> Robin: I think we can try to design this without cEmin, but if it becomes problematic we can backtrack
  242. # [17:35] <darobin> jparent_: I think these stay focused on editing
  243. # [17:36] <darobin> Robin: maybe the ability to receive intention events triggers on focus?
  244. # [17:36] <darobin> PiotrekKoszulinski: I don't know if a lot of those events make sense in a different context
  245. # [17:37] <darobin> Robin: I have a concern that if we expand these events beyond text editing we might be boiling the ocean
  246. # [17:38] <darobin> BenjamP: the ability to override keyboard events has value also in text, so it is useful there
  247. # [17:38] <darobin> ... Sublime has lots of keyboard shortcuts
  248. # [17:38] <darobin> ... but instead of the way it is today where you have to listen to keyboard events and handle them, we could have a mapping of keyboard events to commands
  249. # [17:39] <darobin> ... so all you do in the keyboard handler is map to the command, and handle the command as you have always done
  250. # [17:40] <darobin> Robin: we can keep command events and the way they are bound into the platform orthogonal
  251. # [17:40] <darobin> Topic: beforeinput and beforeselectionchange
  252. # [17:40] <darobin> BenjamP: selection event would be the event for selection
  253. # [17:40] <darobin> ... command event for menus and such
  254. # [17:40] <darobin> ... text input is a special case
  255. # [17:41] <darobin> ... beforeinput can help you determine how to handle things
  256. # [17:41] <darobin> ... but today, input events fire for all sorts of things including paste events
  257. # [17:41] <darobin> ... so I'm concerned that beforeinput might cause duplication
  258. # [17:42] * Joins: lgombos_ (~gombos@public.cloak)
  259. # [17:42] <Travis_> DOM3 folks added it (beforeinput) as a replacement for keypress (deprecated).
  260. # [17:42] <darobin> Robin: if we can simplify it one way or the other (paste/input separate, or input with indication that it's a paste) it's best
  261. # [17:42] <darobin> ... having two events for the same content is madness
  262. # [17:42] <darobin> BenjamP: we could just have a commandevent with insert-text as its type
  263. # [17:43] <darobin> ... we could just use that on the event side as well
  264. # [17:43] <darobin> Topic: Splitting up work
  265. # [17:43] <darobin> BenjamP: we definitely have some research, look at frameworks
  266. # [17:45] <darobin> Robin: if we can get people involved all the better
  267. # [17:45] <darobin> ... we can have a mailing list
  268. # [17:46] <darobin> adrianba: that was definitely helpful with the media TF where we were trying to appeal to a specific audience
  269. # [17:46] * darobin that wanted DRM!!! j/k :)
  270. # [17:47] * darobin is getting a lot of distortion from adrianba, lmk if I'm not scribing something important — sorry
  271. # [17:47] <adrianba> +1
  272. # [17:47] <PiotrekKoszulinski> +1
  273. # [17:47] <darobin> ACTION: Robin to create an Editing TF
  274. # [17:47] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
  275. # [17:47] * RRSAgent records action 1
  276. # [17:47] <trackbot> Created ACTION-731 - Create an editing tf [on Robin Berjon - due 2014-06-13].
  277. # [17:48] <darobin> BenjamP: we need a normative spec
  278. # [17:48] <darobin> ... as well as updates to the explainer
  279. # [17:48] <darobin> ... without cE, we need Command Events
  280. # [17:48] * Quits: lgombos (~gombos@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  281. # [17:49] <darobin> Robin: we need to define the binding with HTML too
  282. # [17:49] <darobin> BenjamP: we need an editor, and we need to figure out when we make them official
  283. # [17:49] <darobin> Robin: is editing already in the WebApps charter
  284. # [17:50] <darobin> ACTION: Robin to figure out how we handle the chartering business
  285. # [17:50] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
  286. # [17:50] * RRSAgent records action 2
  287. # [17:50] <trackbot> Created ACTION-732 - Figure out how we handle the chartering business [on Robin Berjon - due 2014-06-13].
  288. # [17:50] <darobin> BenjamP: update the explainer with this information, then write some specs
  289. # [17:50] <darobin> ... and file bugs, improve work
  290. # [17:51] <darobin> ... the current discussion is hard to track
  291. # [17:51] * Quits: smaug (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  292. # [17:51] <darobin> Robin: we can reuse the Bz for the Editing API or the GH issues
  293. # [17:51] <darobin> BenjamP: GitHub it is!
  294. # [17:52] <darobin> Robin: BenjamP you're willing to edit?
  295. # [17:52] <darobin> BenjamP: yes
  296. # [17:52] <darobin> Robin: I'm happy to edit too
  297. # [17:52] <darobin> ... we also need the Selection API
  298. # [17:53] <darobin> BenjamP: yes, rniwa said he didn't have much time not long ago
  299. # [17:53] <darobin> jparent_: my impression was that after WWDC he'd have more time
  300. # [17:53] <darobin> ACTION: Robin to ask rniwa how he wants to handle Selection
  301. # [17:53] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
  302. # [17:53] * RRSAgent records action 3
  303. # [17:53] <trackbot> Created ACTION-733 - Ask rniwa how he wants to handle selection [on Robin Berjon - due 2014-06-13].
  304. # [17:54] <darobin> Robin: I would encourage people to start using the tracker
  305. # [17:54] <darobin> BenjamP: other call?
  306. # [17:55] <darobin> Robin: we could say that Fri 8am PST is always the time, but we call it on an ad hoc basis
  307. # [17:55] <darobin> RESOLUTION: Fri 8am PST is always the time, but we call it on an ad hoc basis
  308. # [17:55] <Zakim> -BenjamP
  309. # [17:55] <Zakim> -adrianba
  310. # [17:55] <Zakim> -PiotrekKoszulinski
  311. # [17:55] <Zakim> -Xiaoqian
  312. # [17:55] <Zakim> -darobin
  313. # [17:55] <Zakim> -jparent_
  314. # [17:55] <Zakim> IA_WebApps()11:00AM has ended
  315. # [17:55] <Zakim> Attendees were BenjamP, PiotrekKoszulinski, Xiaoqian, jparent_, [IPcaller], darobin, +1.425.614.aabb, adrianba
  316. # [17:56] <darobin> RRSAgent, make minutes
  317. # [17:56] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/06-webapps-minutes.html darobin
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The end :)