/irc-logs / w3c / #webapps / 2014-10-27 / end

Options:

# Session Start: Mon Oct 27 00:00:00 2014
# Session Ident: #webapps
# [00:40] * Joins: marcosc_ (~marcosc@public.cloak)
# [00:48] * Quits: marcosc_ (~marcosc@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [00:53] * Joins: TNK (~KIMWOOGLAE@public.cloak)
# [01:13] * Quits: kochi (~kochi@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [01:25] * Joins: kochi (~kochi@public.cloak)
# [01:25] * Joins: kochi1 (~kochi@public.cloak)
# [01:33] * darobin_ is now known as darobin
# [01:55] * Quits: TNK (~KIMWOOGLAE@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [02:36] * Quits: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [02:51] * Quits: smaug (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [03:02] * Joins: lgombos (~gombos@public.cloak)
# [03:17] * Quits: chaals (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [04:32] * Joins: TNK (~KIMWOOGLAE@public.cloak)
# [04:40] * Quits: TNK (~KIMWOOGLAE@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [05:48] * Quits: lgombos (~gombos@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [06:07] * Joins: marcosc_ (~marcosc@public.cloak)
# [06:12] * Quits: marcosc_ (~marcosc@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [06:12] * Joins: marcosc_ (~marcosc@public.cloak)
# [06:34] * Joins: marcosc__ (~marcosc@public.cloak)
# [06:35] * Quits: marcosc_ (~marcosc@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [06:53] * Joins: TNK (~KIMWOOGLAE@public.cloak)
# [06:53] * Joins: marcosc_ (~marcosc@public.cloak)
# [06:57] * Quits: marcosc__ (~marcosc@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [06:57] * Joins: marcosc__ (~marcosc@public.cloak)
# [07:01] * Quits: marcosc_ (~marcosc@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [07:09] * Joins: marcosc_ (~marcosc@public.cloak)
# [07:11] * Quits: marcosc__ (~marcosc@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [07:15] * Joins: marcosc__ (~marcosc@public.cloak)
# [07:18] * Quits: marcosc_ (~marcosc@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [07:22] * Quits: marcosc__ (~marcosc@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [08:11] * Joins: chaals (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [08:16] * Quits: TNK (~KIMWOOGLAE@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [09:03] * Quits: chaals (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [11:02] * Joins: smaug (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
# [11:27] * Quits: smaug (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [11:34] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@public.cloak)
# [12:06] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@public.cloak) ("My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…")
# [12:27] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@public.cloak)
# [13:19] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@public.cloak) ("Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com")
# [13:22] * Joins: lgombos (~gombos@public.cloak)
# [13:22] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@public.cloak)
# [13:24] * Joins: lgombos_ (~gombos@public.cloak)
# [13:24] * Quits: lgombos (~gombos@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [13:38] * Joins: chaals (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [14:13] * Quits: lgombos_ (~gombos@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [14:56] * Joins: abarsto (~abarsto@public.cloak)
# [14:56] * abarsto is now known as ArtB
# [14:58] * Quits: ArtB (~abarsto@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [15:00] * Quits: chaals (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [15:03] * Joins: marcosc_ (~marcosc@public.cloak)
# [15:13] * Quits: marcosc_ (~marcosc@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [15:22] * Joins: lgombos_ (~gombos@public.cloak)
# [15:30] * Quits: lgombos_ (~gombos@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [15:34] * Joins: lgombos_ (~gombos@public.cloak)
# [15:41] * Quits: lgombos_ (~gombos@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [15:53] * Joins: lgombos_ (~gombos@public.cloak)
# [15:53] * Quits: lgombos_ (~gombos@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [15:53] * Joins: lgombos (~gombos@public.cloak)
# [16:06] * Joins: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak)
# [16:11] * Quits: lgombos (~gombos@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [16:12] * Joins: lgombos (~lgombos@public.cloak)
# [16:17] * Joins: marcosc_ (~marcosc@public.cloak)
# [16:19] * Joins: lgombos_ (~lgombos@public.cloak)
# [16:22] * Quits: marcosc (~marcosc@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [16:22] * Quits: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [16:25] * Quits: lgombos (~lgombos@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [16:25] * Joins: lgombos (~gombos@public.cloak)
# [16:25] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@public.cloak) ("Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com")
# [16:32] * Joins: lgombos__ (~gombos@public.cloak)
# [16:32] * Quits: lgombos (~gombos@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [16:32] * Joins: Hiroto_ (~Hiroto@public.cloak)
# [16:36] * tyoshino__ is now known as tyoshino
# [16:37] * Quits: lgombos_ (~lgombos@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
# [16:40] * Joins: lgombos (~lgombos@public.cloak)
# [16:40] * Quits: lgombos__ (~gombos@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
# [16:42] * Quits: lgombos (~lgombos@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
# [16:42] * Joins: lgombos (~lgombos@public.cloak)
# [16:43] * Joins: rubys (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [16:48] * Joins: chaals (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [16:48] * Joins: Zefa (~Zefa@public.cloak)
# [16:48] * Joins: marcosc (~marcosc@public.cloak)
# [16:48] * Joins: abarsto (~abarsto@public.cloak)
# [16:48] * abarsto is now known as ArtB
# [16:51] * Yves waves from the meeting room
# [16:51] * Joins: adrianba (~adrianba@public.cloak)
# [16:51] * Joins: Zakim (zakim@public.cloak)
# [16:51] <Yves> zakim, start telcon
# [16:51] <Zakim> I don't understand 'start telcon', Yves
# [16:51] <Yves> trackbot, start telcon
# [16:51] * trackbot is preparing a teleconference.
# [16:51] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrsagent@public.cloak)
# [16:51] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-irc
# [16:51] <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [16:51] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot
# [16:51] <trackbot> Zakim, this will be DOM3
# [16:51] <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
# [16:51] <trackbot> Meeting: Web Applications Working Group Teleconference
# [16:51] <trackbot> Date: 27 October 2014
# [16:52] * Joins: nsakai2_ (~nsakai2@public.cloak)
# [16:53] * Joins: jungkees (~uid24208@public.cloak)
# [16:53] <ArtB> zakim, this will be RWC_WAPI
# [16:53] <Zakim> ok, ArtB; I see RWC_WAPI()12:00PM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
# [16:53] * Joins: colin (~colin@public.cloak)
# [16:54] <ArtB> Chair: Art, Charles
# [16:54] <Zakim> RWC_WAPI()12:00PM has now started
# [16:54] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [16:54] <Zakim> + +1.650.318.aaaa
# [16:55] * Quits: colin (~colin@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [16:55] <ArtB> Present: Art_Barstow, Yves_Lafon, Charles_Neville
# [16:55] <Zakim> - +1.650.318.aaaa
# [16:56] * Joins: rniwa (~rniwa@public.cloak)
# [16:56] * Joins: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak)
# [16:59] * Joins: tnk (~wkim5@public.cloak)
# [16:59] * Quits: tnk (~wkim5@public.cloak) ("Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com")
# [16:59] * Joins: a12u (~androirc@public.cloak)
# [16:59] * Joins: wooglae (~wkim5@public.cloak)
# [16:59] * Joins: glenn (~gadams@public.cloak)
# [17:00] * Joins: makotom (~makotom@public.cloak)
# [17:00] * Joins: aaa (~aaa@public.cloak)
# [17:01] * Joins: benjamp (~benjamp@public.cloak)
# [17:01] * Joins: chaa13 (~chaa13@public.cloak)
# [17:01] * Joins: jhund (~jhund@public.cloak)
# [17:04] <darobin> Present+ Robin_Berjon
# [17:04] <Yves> Present+ Yves_Lafon
# [17:04] <jungkees> Present+ Jungkee_Song
# [17:04] * Joins: myakura (~myakura@public.cloak)
# [17:04] <adrianba> Present+ Adrian_Bateman
# [17:04] <rniwa> Present+ Ryosuke_Niwa
# [17:04] <xiaoqian> Present+ Xiaoqian_wu
# [17:04] * Joins: Claes (~Claes@public.cloak)
# [17:04] <benjamp> Present+ Ben Peters
# [17:04] <schuki> Present+ Natasha_Rooney
# [17:04] <marcosc> Present+ Marcos_Caceres
# [17:04] * Joins: Travis (~Travis@public.cloak)
# [17:04] <rubys> present+ Sam_Ruby
# [17:04] * Joins: plh (plehegar@public.cloak)
# [17:04] * Parts: makotom (~makotom@public.cloak)
# [17:04] * Joins: alia (~alia@public.cloak)
# [17:04] <jhund> Present+ Johannes Hund
# [17:04] <wooglae> Present+ Wooglae_Kim
# [17:04] * Joins: spoussa (~spoussa@public.cloak)
# [17:04] <jungkees> Present+ Kenneth_Christiansen
# [17:05] * Joins: paulliu (~paulliu@public.cloak)
# [17:05] <plh> Present+ plh
# [17:05] * Joins: israelh (~israelh@public.cloak)
# [17:05] <Travis> Present+ Travis_Leithead
# [17:05] <jhund> Present+ Johannes_Hund
# [17:05] <alia> Present+ Ali_Alabbas
# [17:05] * Joins: LJWatson (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
# [17:05] * Joins: makotom (~makotom@public.cloak)
# [17:05] <israelh> Present+ Israel_Hilerio
# [17:05] <ArtB> ScribeNick: ArtB
# [17:05] <ArtB> Scribe: Art
# [17:05] <spoussa> Present+ Sakari_Poussa
# [17:05] <lgombos> present+ Laszlo_Gombos
# [17:05] <ArtB> CN: starting Introductin
# [17:05] <a12u> Present+ Hiroyuki_Aizu
# [17:06] <ArtB> Topic: Introductions
# [17:06] <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
# [17:06] <Zakim> RWC_WAPI()12:00PM has ended
# [17:06] <Zakim> Attendees were [IPcaller], +1.650.318.aaaa
# [17:06] <Zakim> RWC_WAPI()12:00PM has now started
# [17:06] <Zakim> + +1.650.318.aaaa
# [17:06] * Joins: fjh (~fhirsch3@public.cloak)
# [17:06] * Quits: fjh (~fhirsch3@public.cloak) (fjh)
# [17:06] <ArtB> CN: everyone, please Present+ themselves as: Firstname_LastName
# [17:06] * plh guesses the california folks will be late
# [17:06] <ArtB> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/November2014Meeting
# [17:06] <myakura> Present+ Masataka_Yakura
# [17:06] * Joins: fjh (~fhirsch3@public.cloak)
# [17:07] * Joins: smaug (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
# [17:07] * Joins: forty4 (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
# [17:07] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [17:07] * Joins: LJWatson_ (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
# [17:07] * Joins: waynecarr (~waynecarr@public.cloak)
# [17:08] * Joins: bryan_ (~uid15860@public.cloak)
# [17:08] * Joins: brianraymor (~brianraymor@public.cloak)
# [17:08] <ArtB> CN: before you speak, please say your name
# [17:08] <MikeSmith> Present+ Michael[tm]Smith
# [17:09] * Joins: cyns (~cyns@public.cloak)
# [17:09] <ArtB> zakim, who's here?
# [17:09] <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.650.318.aaaa, [IPcaller]
# [17:09] <Zakim> On IRC I see cyns, brianraymor, bryan_, waynecarr, LJWatson_, forty4, smaug, fjh, makotom, LJWatson, israelh, paulliu, spoussa, alia, plh, Travis, Claes, myakura, jhund, chaa13,
# [17:09] <Zakim> ... benjamp, aaa, glenn, wooglae, a12u, darobin, rniwa, jungkees, nsakai2_, RRSAgent, Zakim, adrianba, ArtB, marcosc, Zefa, chaals, rubys, lgombos, Hiroto_, marcosc_, kochi1,
# [17:09] <Zakim> ... kochi, tyoshino, igrigorik, stryx`_, stryx`, MikeSmith, botie, hober, paul___irish, slightlyoff, tobie, astearns, cwilso, timeless, scheib, hayato_, krit, cabanier, jsbell,
# [17:09] <Zakim> ... mkwst___
# [17:09] <bryan_> present+ Bryan_Sullivan
# [17:09] <cyns> present cynthia_shelly
# [17:09] <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Portland
# [17:09] <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
# [17:09] <Zakim> +Portland
# [17:09] <cyns> present+ cynthia_shelly
# [17:09] <ArtB> zakim, call Portland
# [17:09] <Zakim> ok, ArtB; the call is being made
# [17:09] <Zakim> +Portland.a
# [17:09] <Zakim> -Portland.a
# [17:09] <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Portland
# [17:09] <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
# [17:09] <Zakim> +Portland.a
# [17:09] <ArtB> zakime, who's here?
# [17:09] <Zakim> -Portland.a
# [17:10] * plh thought this was seattle
# [17:10] <tyoshino> i can hear someone speaking
# [17:10] <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Seattle
# [17:10] <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
# [17:10] <Zakim> +Seattle
# [17:10] <MikeSmith> Zakim, drop Seattle
# [17:10] <Zakim> Seattle is being disconnected
# [17:10] <Zakim> -Seattle
# [17:10] * plh tyoshino, can you hear charles?
# [17:10] <forty4> present+ Dowan_Kim
# [17:10] <tyoshino> talking about agenda, yes
# [17:10] * Joins: sam (osamu@public.cloak)
# [17:10] * darobin wonders if we could talk about URL?
# [17:10] * darobin runs away giggling
# [17:11] * Quits: nsakai2_ (~nsakai2@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [17:11] <MikeSmith> q?
# [17:11] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [17:11] <ArtB> CN: agenda requests
# [17:11] <MikeSmith> q+ to comment
# [17:11] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [17:11] * Joins: anssik (~uid10742@public.cloak)
# [17:11] <ArtB> CS: I have a proposal I'd like to talk about when IndieUI folks are here
# [17:11] <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Portland
# [17:11] <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
# [17:11] <Zakim> +Portland.a
# [17:11] <Zakim> -Portland.a
# [17:12] <ArtB> AB: we can allocate time tomorrow Cindy
# [17:12] <ArtB> CS: ok
# [17:12] <ArtB> CN: any other topics
# [17:12] <ArtB> MS: URL spec
# [17:12] * Quits: LJWatson (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [17:12] * LJWatson_ is now known as LJWatson
# [17:12] * Joins: ShijunS (~ShijunS@public.cloak)
# [17:12] <ArtB> … want to have Larry Manister
# [17:13] <ArtB> SR: what about Dan?
# [17:13] <ArtB> AB: please tell Larry and Dan to be here at 10:00
# [17:13] <ArtB> PLH: TAG says 10:00 will not work for them today
# [17:14] <ArtB> CN: PLH, please figure out a good time for Tuesday
# [17:14] * Joins: fjh_ (~fhirsch3@public.cloak)
# [17:14] * Quits: fjh (~fhirsch3@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [17:14] * fjh_ is now known as fjh
# [17:15] <ArtB> MS: are we having a SysApps joint meeting?
# [17:15] <ArtB> MC: Mounir will be here after lunch
# [17:15] <ArtB> … should wait for him
# [17:15] <ArtB> JS: tomorrow Wonsuk will be here
# [17:16] <ArtB> ACTION: Marcos work with SysApps to find an agenda slot for Tuesday
# [17:16] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [17:16] * RRSAgent records action 1
# [17:16] <trackbot> Error finding 'Marcos'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/users>.
# [17:16] <ArtB> Topic: Spec Roll call
# [17:16] <Travis> scribe: Travis
# [17:17] <Travis> Topic: Rundown of pubstatus
# [17:17] <Travis> Clipboard events
# [17:17] <Travis> ... hallvord has a few issues he wanted to deal with
# [17:17] * Joins: kawai (~kawai@public.cloak)
# [17:17] <Travis> ... "strip dangerous content for paste"
# [17:17] <Travis> ... would be useful for email (to have a standard way to do this)
# [17:18] <Travis> ... allow beforepaste event; are there privacy concerns?
# [17:18] <Travis> ... chaals thinks 'no'
# [17:19] <Travis> ... This spec goes back a while... is this converging to an LC?
# [17:19] <Travis> ... anyone interested in committing to this?
# [17:19] <Travis> rniwa: clarify the question?
# [17:19] * plh proposed 11am tomorrow for URL discussion
# [17:20] <Travis> (no volunteers to help in the room)
# [17:20] * rniwa was asking if the question was that we should allow beforepaste to inspect types of contents available in the clipboard
# [17:20] * rniwa apparently we’re being asked if there will be any privacy concern if we allow it.
# [17:21] <Travis> marcosc_: Not sure on mozilla stance... wondering if others are planning to implement?
# [17:21] <Travis> ... is Apple?
# [17:21] <Travis> benjamp: Microsoft is.
# [17:21] * Joins: stone (~stone@public.cloak)
# [17:21] <Travis> rniwa: Apple is paying "close attention"
# [17:22] <Travis> DOM Level 3 Event
# [17:22] <ArtB> ScribeNick: ArtB
# [17:22] <darobin> Travis: for this we published an updated WD in September
# [17:22] <ArtB> TL: we published new D3E spec last month
# [17:22] <darobin> ... it is our intention to keep pushing this spec to the end of its day
# [17:22] <ArtB> ScribeNick: darobin
# [17:22] <darobin> ... we've tried to harmonise with DOM4, notably for events (definition, dispatch)
# [17:23] <darobin> ... we have a number of additional significant bugs to tackle
# [17:23] <darobin> ... notably defining the order of dispatch of events in relation to the task queue model
# [17:23] <darobin> ... a few more clarifications and a whole lot of cleanup
# [17:23] <darobin> ... it's looking, rough estimate, 6 months to another LC
# [17:23] <darobin> marcosc: it wasn't clear to me last I looked at HTML, if it defines task queues
# [17:24] <Claes> Present+ Claes_Nilsson
# [17:24] <darobin> Travis: you can select from the queue you want
# [17:24] * Joins: plinss (~plinss@public.cloak)
# [17:24] <darobin> ... if you put them in the same queue
# [17:24] <darobin> chaa13: and this is like a legacy spec, right?
# [17:24] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@public.cloak)
# [17:24] <darobin> Travis: to a large extent, as we update it we are applying new spec patterns but it's arduous
# [17:24] <darobin> marcosc: UI Events?
# [17:25] <ArtB> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/d4e/raw-file/tip/source_respec.htm -> UI Events ED
# [17:25] <darobin> Travis: it was the future of D3Ev, but as we continue to polish this one, we realised we needed to do some of those things now
# [17:25] * Joins: forty41 (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [17:25] <darobin> ... this is also part of the delay
# [17:25] <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
# [17:25] <darobin> marcosc: my confusion is that I keep finding the UI events and getting confused
# [17:25] <darobin> plh: should we deprecate it?
# [17:25] <smaug> Zakim, [IPcaller.a] is Olli_Pettay
# [17:25] <Zakim> +Olli_Pettay; got it
# [17:25] <darobin> Travis: that sounds good to me, it has very little if anything
# [17:25] * Quits: forty4 (~chatzilla@public.cloak) ("ChatZilla 0.9.91 [Firefox 33.0/20141011015303]")
# [17:26] * Joins: alan-i (~alan-i@public.cloak)
# [17:26] <smaug> Zakim, nick smaug is Olli_Pettay
# [17:26] <Zakim> ok, smaug, I now associate you with Olli_Pettay
# [17:26] <darobin> chaa13: publish as empty Note, point to D3Ev
# [17:26] <darobin> Travis: when D3Ev is done, where do the new events go?
# [17:26] <darobin> marcosc: we can restart this
# [17:26] <ArtB> ACTION: barstow start CfC to publish UI Events as a "gutted" WG Note
# [17:26] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [17:26] * RRSAgent records action 2
# [17:26] <trackbot> Created ACTION-734 - Start cfc to publish ui events as a "gutted" wg note [on Arthur Barstow - due 2014-11-03].
# [17:27] <darobin> RESOLUTION: deprecate UI Events as a deliverable and publish a gutted Note for it
# [17:27] <darobin> ArtB: anything about the key specs
# [17:27] <MikeSmith> Zakim, who's on the phone?
# [17:27] <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.650.318.aaaa, [IPcaller], Portland, Olli_Pettay
# [17:27] <darobin> Travis: they go with D3E, should go to Rec at the same time?
# [17:27] <darobin> ArtB: pubstatus says D3E still has tests in Mercurial, still the case?
# [17:27] <MikeSmith> smaug, can you hear us on the phone?
# [17:28] <smaug> yes
# [17:28] <darobin> ACTION: Travis to check that the D3E tests are in GH or Mercurial, and if needed fix
# [17:28] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [17:28] * RRSAgent records action 3
# [17:28] <trackbot> Created ACTION-735 - Check that the d3e tests are in gh or mercurial, and if needed fix [on Travis Leithead - due 2014-11-03].
# [17:28] <smaug> MikeSmith: surprisingly well
# [17:28] <darobin> ArtB: is Alex still available to work as a test facilitator
# [17:28] <darobin> Travis: I don't believe he is, we should find a new facilitator
# [17:28] <smaug> MikeSmith: but I'm just listening in the background while doing other stuff
# [17:29] <MikeSmith> smaug, OK greatーthanks
# [17:29] <ArtB> ACTION: barstow work with Adrian to find a replacement TC for Alex and D3E
# [17:29] * RRSAgent records action 4
# [17:29] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [17:29] <trackbot> Created ACTION-736 - Work with adrian to find a replacement tc for alex and d3e [on Arthur Barstow - due 2014-11-03].
# [17:29] <darobin> Travis: Gary is interested in testing the spec further
# [17:29] * Quits: paulliu (~paulliu@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [17:29] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent,
# [17:29] <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand '', MikeSmith. Try /msg RRSAgent help
# [17:29] <darobin> Travis: DOM-PS
# [17:29] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [17:29] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [17:29] <darobin> ArtB: that was listed in potential topics, possible CR
# [17:30] <darobin> Travis: I don't know that we have much that's controversial
# [17:30] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [17:30] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, MikeSmith
# [17:30] <darobin> ... should we have a breakout
# [17:30] <ArtB> https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/tree/master/html/syntax -> DOM P&S tests
# [17:30] <darobin> Robin: are there bugs?
# [17:30] <darobin> Travis: status is we have a CR, in June, contingent on TS
# [17:30] * Joins: Hyunjin (~Hyunjin@public.cloak)
# [17:30] <darobin> ... the TS has yet to coalesce
# [17:30] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [17:30] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [17:30] <darobin> chaa13: so we need tests
# [17:30] <ArtB> https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/labels/dom-parsing -> DOM P&S test open issues
# [17:31] <darobin> Travis: Ms2ger had tests, some need porting, new ones are needed
# [17:31] * Quits: Hyunjin (~Hyunjin@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [17:31] <darobin> ArtB: no test coordinator
# [17:31] <darobin> Travis: I'm happy to be a facilitator
# [17:31] <darobin> plh: what could help is if you can at some point write down the list of needed test
# [17:31] <darobin> ... that helps people pick things up
# [17:32] <darobin> cindy: I'm happy to help, but I'll need your help to step in
# [17:32] <darobin> Travis: that would help!
# [17:32] * Joins: Hyunjin_ (~Hyunjin@public.cloak)
# [17:32] * Quits: fjh (~fhirsch3@public.cloak) (fjh)
# [17:32] <darobin> rniwa: do you have any sense on how consistent browsers are?
# [17:32] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
# [17:32] <darobin> Travis: the spec largely follows an implementation that is pretty close to Gecoj
# [17:32] <darobin> ... Chrome had serious issues serialising namespaced attributes
# [17:33] <darobin> ... but they indicated progress
# [17:33] <smaug> s/Gecoj/Gecko/
# [17:33] <darobin> ... otherwise the basics are widely implemented
# [17:33] <darobin> ... we'll see how bad that is with testing
# [17:33] <darobin> darobin: are you going to do anything with innerText?
# [17:33] <darobin> Travis: there was opposition because it depends on rendering, but some thought it might be doable
# [17:34] <Domenic> someone speccing innerText would be amaaaazing
# [17:34] <darobin> ... happy to include it if there's consensus, but otherwise would leave it alone
# [17:34] <darobin> ... maybe a new spec?
# [17:34] * Joins: youngwoojo (~youngwoojo@public.cloak)
# [17:34] <darobin> rniwa: Selection API also depends on innerText, it would be valuable to have a spec for that
# [17:34] <darobin> ... it's a lot of work, because it's hard, don't want to block DOM-PS
# [17:35] * Joins: gludi_ (~gludi@public.cloak)
# [17:35] <Domenic> for the record, previous attempts (with tests apparently) at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2011Feb/0025.html; use archive.org to follow the dead links.
# [17:35] <darobin> Travis: heard a recommendation to start a new spec as part of the editing TF, we should pursue that, it's a good idea
# [17:35] * darobin thanks Domenic
# [17:35] <darobin> chaa13: any takers?
# [17:35] * Joins: kurosawa (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
# [17:36] <darobin> Travis: if no volunteers, I can be the default
# [17:36] * darobin Dan'll do it
# [17:36] * Joins: fjh (~fhirsch3@public.cloak)
# [17:36] <darobin> ben: how does it relate to textContent?
# [17:37] <darobin> Travis: they both serialise text...
# [17:37] <darobin> ... innerText serialises "what you see on screen" text, textContent is pure object model
# [17:38] <darobin> ... let's get a new component in the bug DB for that
# [17:38] <darobin> scribenick: Travis
# [17:38] <ArtB> ACTION: barstow create a new bugzilla component for Inner Text
# [17:38] * RRSAgent records action 5
# [17:38] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [17:38] <trackbot> Created ACTION-737 - Create a new bugzilla component for inner text [on Arthur Barstow - due 2014-11-03].
# [17:38] <Travis> chaals: Moving on to FileAPI
# [17:38] <Travis> ... oh, on the agenda already... skipping
# [17:38] <Travis> ... FullScreen
# [17:38] <Travis> ... calling tantek
# [17:39] <ArtB> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2014OctDec/0213.html -> Tantek's proposal re Fullscreen API
# [17:39] <Travis> ... chaals says tantek says let the WHATWG do it. Anyone interested in publishing in W3C
# [17:40] <Travis> ... if no one moves it forward, it will likely be parked as a Note.
# [17:40] <Travis> ArtB: In our charter, we don't make binding decisions in f2f meetings. We can take a poll here...
# [17:40] <Travis> ... any objecting to parking fullscreen?
# [17:41] <Travis> ... (no objections noted)
# [17:41] <ArtB> ACTION: barstow start a CfC to publish a "gutted" WG Note of the Fullscreen API
# [17:41] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [17:41] * RRSAgent records action 6
# [17:41] <trackbot> Created ACTION-738 - Start a cfc to publish a "gutted" wg note of the fullscreen api [on Arthur Barstow - due 2014-11-03].
# [17:41] <Travis> marcosc: can we redirect the parked specs to the active specs.
# [17:41] <Travis> plh: If the spec is going to be parked, we need to update the TR
# [17:41] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [17:41] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [17:42] <Travis> chaals: Status information is important, the redirect will be noted in the doc.
# [17:42] <Travis> marcosc: can we tell Google not to index it?
# [17:42] * Joins: gludi|3 (~kvirc@public.cloak)
# [17:42] <Travis> chaals: Gamepad.
# [17:43] * plh anybody who wants to stop playing with his gamepad and write a spec for it?
# [17:43] <Travis> ... is anyone following? I see discussion going on...
# [17:43] * Yves plh, it's good to test!
# [17:43] <Travis> ... OK.
# [17:43] <Travis> IndexedDB
# [17:44] <Travis> sicking: I'm not sure what's blocking; implementation seem interoperable
# [17:45] <smaug> Fixing https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/issues/1304 would give quite some more green in IDB tests
# [17:45] <Travis> ArtB: looking at the implementation report...
# [17:45] <myakura> http://w3c.github.io/test-results/IndexedDB/less-than-2.html
# [17:45] <ArtB> http://www.w3c-test.org/IndexedDB/interfaces.html -> IDB interfaces Web IDL
# [17:45] <Travis> darobin: Note the "interfaces.html" (WebIDL interfaces)
# [17:45] <Travis> ... Those are WebIDL related problems, not necessarily IndexedDB...
# [17:46] <Travis> ... if you opt those out, there aren't that many failures.
# [17:46] <Travis> plh: for WebIDL we should ignore non-basic bindings...
# [17:47] <Travis> marcosc: strongly object. We should fix the IDL...
# [17:47] <smaug> IDB webidl tests are buggy
# [17:47] <Travis> sicking: why do we keep blocking IndexedDB on WebIDL failures
# [17:47] <smaug> not implementations
# [17:47] <Travis> plh: truth is no one implements WebIDL correctly yet.
# [17:47] <smaug> in this case
# [17:47] * Quits: Hyunjin_ (~Hyunjin@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [17:47] <Travis> ... implementations have been trying to get WebIDL bindings correctly.
# [17:48] <Travis> marcosc: if it affects authors, it's bad, otherwise OK.
# [17:48] * darobin marcosc: I'm with you on the "let's not fudge stuff" theory, but for WebIDL this is really orthogonal
# [17:49] * darobin marcosc: and most of the failures are things you'd never in your lifetime notice as an author, unless you're doing dirty things e.g. to the prototype (in which case you had it coming :)
# [17:49] * marcosc agree. The binding layer can be fixed independently of WebIDL
# [17:49] <Travis> chaals: If these failures are 'theoretical purity' issues, then we should just move on and fix those later.
# [17:49] <Travis> joshua: should we followup with a review of the failures just to make sure?
# [17:49] * darobin marcosc: they're getting better too; since I've been tracking these test results the number of IDL failures has slowly been decreasing
# [17:50] <Travis> chaals: If it doesn't cause real-world issues for users, then that's the use case.
# [17:51] <Travis> ArtB: Straw poll: any objections based on result.
# [17:51] * marcosc darobin, I need to check what those issues are.
# [17:51] <Travis> sicking: I'm not convinced (we were looking at the 'less-than-2' results...
# [17:51] <Travis> plh: 37 tests failing out of 595.
# [17:52] <Travis> ... if you factor out WebIDL tests it's even better.
# [17:52] <ArtB> ACTION: barstow start a CfC to publish a Proposed Recommendation of IDB
# [17:52] * RRSAgent records action 7
# [17:52] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [17:52] <trackbot> Created ACTION-739 - Start a cfc to publish a proposed recommendation of idb [on Arthur Barstow - due 2014-11-03].
# [17:52] <Travis> chaals: Lots of support for moving it forward. Let's ship it!
# [17:53] <Travis> ArtB: Anything else regarding IDB v2?
# [17:53] * Joins: kbx (~kbx@public.cloak)
# [17:53] * Joins: DaveWalp (~DaveWalp@public.cloak)
# [17:53] <Travis> joshua: Just focusing on service worker (SW), digesting feedback around using Promises. No progress to report.
# [17:53] <DaveWalp> Present+ David Walp
# [17:54] <Travis> chaals: IME
# [17:54] * Quits: plh (plehegar@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
# [17:56] * Joins: Guest (~textual@public.cloak)
# [17:56] * Guest is now known as notbenjamin
# [17:56] <xiaoqian> Travis: MS is considering to implement IME API @@...spec is relatively stable.
# [17:56] <Travis> MikeSmith: Looking for another test facilitator... please?
# [17:56] <Travis> ... any other implementation interest?
# [17:56] <chaals> q?
# [17:56] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [17:57] <Travis> hober: Goal to support script avoiding IME seems reasonable
# [17:57] <Travis> ... I worry assumptions are based on current IMEs
# [17:58] <Travis> ... not sure what the future holds.
# [17:58] <Travis> ... scope is reduced; think it looks better than before.
# [17:58] <Travis> rniwa: Apple is interested in improving editing; it important to look at how IME API fits into the overall system.
# [17:58] <Travis> ... we don't want to be introducing lots of ways to do the same thing.
# [17:59] * Joins: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak)
# [17:59] <Travis> chaals: We definiately don't want to introduce conflicts.
# [17:59] <ArtB> ACTION: barstow issue a Call for Test Facilitator for IME spec
# [17:59] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [17:59] * RRSAgent records action 8
# [17:59] * darobin marcosc: you'd started something to generate JS bindings off WebIDL, right? you can see failures for a bunch of APIs (some might be slightly out of date) in https://github.com/w3c/test-results/
# [17:59] <trackbot> Created ACTION-740 - Issue a call for test facilitator for ime spec [on Arthur Barstow - due 2014-11-03].
# [17:59] <Travis> MikeSmith: Jonas/Marcos, any help?
# [18:00] <Travis> sicking: I know what it is; don't know any plans.
# [18:00] * darobin would think you'd need an IME API for FirefoxOS?
# [18:00] <Travis> chaals: Yandex has an interest; we build IMEs; but don't have anyone to offer.
# [18:00] <Travis> ishida: to what extent is this JP vs JP & CN?
# [18:00] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@public.cloak)
# [18:01] <Travis> MikeSmith: Not to go too deep--but main use case is to avoid IME overlaps with web-based suggestions.
# [18:01] * schuki +1
# [18:01] * schuki so annoying entering jp and getting the overlap
# [18:01] <Travis> ... biggest problem is occlusion/overlap; that's the primary scenario driving the spec.
# [18:01] <Travis> ishida: main users will be JP/CN. Anyone from those communities interested in moving this forward?
# [18:02] <Travis> chaals: Status: it's moving forward slowly
# [18:02] <Travis> rniwa: We should try to get someone from KO/CN/JP interest groups to help (vs. folks who've never used them before)
# [18:03] <ArtB> ACTION: charles ask cjk interest group and others about IME (use cases, tests, etc.)
# [18:03] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [18:03] * RRSAgent records action 9
# [18:03] <trackbot> Created ACTION-741 - Ask cjk interest group and others about ime (use cases, tests, etc.) [on Charles McCathie Nevile - due 2014-11-03].
# [18:03] * Joins: hiroki (hiroki@public.cloak)
# [18:03] <Travis> cindy: tencent/baidu can help (from China)
# [18:03] * Joins: Jinwang_Qi (~Jinwang_Qi@public.cloak)
# [18:03] <Travis> chaals: OK. Moving to PointerLock
# [18:03] * Joins: JonathanJ1 (~hollobit@public.cloak)
# [18:04] <Travis> ArtB: No status report from Vincent Scheib
# [18:04] <Travis> ... there is a link to test suite, but only has WebIDL templates...
# [18:04] * Joins: jrossi (~jrossi@public.cloak)
# [18:04] <JonathanJ1> Present+ Jonathan_Jeon
# [18:04] <Travis> chaals: Anyone know anything more on status.
# [18:04] <Travis> chaals: Quota Management?
# [18:05] <hober> Present+ hober
# [18:05] <Travis> ArtB: Kinuko sent mail
# [18:05] * Joins: sicking_ (~sicking@public.cloak)
# [18:05] <Travis> ... status is "not very active". Anyone interested in helping push this forward?
# [18:05] <Travis> ... not hearing anything.
# [18:05] <Travis> chaals: Screen Orientation - on the agenda for tomorrow.
# [18:06] <Travis> ... so is Selection API
# [18:06] <Travis> ... Server-Sent Events
# [18:07] <Travis> ArtB: At one point, it looked like we were close to finishing, but with new tests, we seem to have more failures.
# [18:07] <Travis> ... rate looks like 13/124 failures.
# [18:07] <Travis> darobin: Looks like there are some major timeout failures.
# [18:07] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:07] * sicking_ is now known as sicking
# [18:08] <Travis> ... timeout could be a test failure, but we don't know for sure.
# [18:08] * Joins: sam2 (~sam2@public.cloak)
# [18:08] <Travis> ... I'm also interested in taking feedback on the implementation report--send me bugs.
# [18:08] <ArtB> ACTION: barstow re SSE test results, followup on the Timeouts with the 2 test facilitators
# [18:08] * RRSAgent records action 10
# [18:08] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [18:08] <trackbot> Created ACTION-742 - Re sse test results, followup on the timeouts with the 2 test facilitators [on Arthur Barstow - due 2014-11-03].
# [18:09] <Travis> chaals: Service Workers
# [18:09] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (tantek)
# [18:09] <Travis> chaals: Streams API on the agenda already
# [18:09] <Travis> ... URL
# [18:09] <Travis> ArtB: Yes, this is on the agenda, combined with Push API
# [18:09] <Travis> ... is on the agenda
# [18:10] <Travis> ... WebIDL
# [18:10] * Quits: kawai (~kawai@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [18:10] <sam2> quit
# [18:10] <Travis> Yves: Had one bug to fix on integrating the test suite...
# [18:10] <Zakim> + +1.650.318.aabb
# [18:10] <Travis> MikeSmith: Boris/Cameron not working on this (don't have time)
# [18:11] <Zakim> - +1.650.318.aaaa
# [18:11] <Travis> ... we want to move this ahead.
# [18:11] <ArtB> ACTION: yves, follow with Cameron re PR 271 and the Web IDL test suite
# [18:11] * RRSAgent records action 11
# [18:11] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [18:11] <trackbot> Error finding 'yves,'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/users>.
# [18:11] <Travis> Yves: With no reply, I will probably do this myself.
# [18:11] <Travis> marcosc: we need a better plan. Cameron is not moving it forward; who can do that.
# [18:11] * Quits: sam2 (~sam2@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [18:11] <Travis> sicking: Cameron _is_ moving it forward, just not as fast as we want.
# [18:12] <JonathanJ1> rrsagent, draft minutes
# [18:12] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html JonathanJ1
# [18:12] <Travis> ... features are being added from use cases in other specs.
# [18:12] <Travis> marcosc: We need a proper plan, we have a devision between v1 and v2.
# [18:12] * Quits: israelh (~israelh@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:13] <Travis> ... we keep fixing features and adding features. It's continuing to evolve.
# [18:13] <Travis> chaals: Are you volunteering to publish a v1?
# [18:13] <Travis> Yves: Yes, of course.
# [18:13] <Travis> chaals: Straw Poll: shall we try to publish a V1?
# [18:13] <Travis> marcosc: I think we risk fragmentation.
# [18:13] * Joins: israelh (~israelh@public.cloak)
# [18:13] <Travis> Yves: It's documenting what's pretty stable. We have tests, etc.
# [18:14] <Travis> ... we are mostly adding things, not modifying things
# [18:14] <Domenic> -1 on v1. Disagree that things are only being added.
# [18:14] <Travis> marcosc: we've been talking about the v1/v2 thing for awhile... if Yves can't get it done, we should kill it.
# [18:14] * Quits: JonathanJ1 (~hollobit@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [18:14] * Quits: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak) (jcraig)
# [18:14] <MikeSmith> -> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?component=WebIDL&list_id=46230&product=WebAppsWG&;resolution=--- 107 open WebIDL bugs
# [18:15] <Travis> chaals: Any other concerns (from non marcosc)
# [18:15] <Travis> MikeSmith: I think the level of effort is high.
# [18:15] <Travis> ... there are 107 bugs... we could use some extra help.
# [18:15] <ArtB> ACTION: yves, work on moving Web IDL v1 to REC
# [18:15] * RRSAgent records action 12
# [18:15] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [18:15] <trackbot> Error finding 'yves,'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/users>.
# [18:15] <Domenic> I am concerned that people will look at v1 and view it as authoritative, when v2 is much more up to date.
# [18:15] <Travis> chaals: Anyone here want to help finish WebIDL v1?
# [18:16] * MikeSmith will add Yves now
# [18:16] * MikeSmith to tracker
# [18:16] <ArtB> ACTION: charles try to find someone to help Yves, Cam and Boris on Web IDL v1
# [18:16] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [18:16] * RRSAgent records action 13
# [18:16] * Yves strange...
# [18:16] <trackbot> Created ACTION-743 - Try to find someone to help yves, cam and boris on web idl v1 [on Charles McCathie Nevile - due 2014-11-03].
# [18:16] <Travis> Yves: This will help with the "how do we reference WebIDL question'
# [18:16] * Yves tracker should know me by now ;)
# [18:16] <Travis> chaals: Web Messaging
# [18:16] <MikeSmith> ACTION: Yves to work on moving Web IDL v1 to REC
# [18:16] * RRSAgent records action 14
# [18:16] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [18:16] <trackbot> Created ACTION-744 - Work on moving web idl v1 to rec [on Yves Lafon - due 2014-11-03].
# [18:17] <Travis> ArtB: KrisK from Microsoft was going to provide some updated data.
# [18:17] <Travis> ... is Kris available to work on this?
# [18:17] <Travis> adrianba: I will check with Kris
# [18:17] <Travis> ArtB: Same story for Web Sockets
# [18:18] <Travis> ... Workers
# [18:18] <Travis> ... Simon is test facilitator
# [18:18] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
# [18:18] <Travis> ... He noted a few bugs, but claims the test suite is relatively complete
# [18:19] <ArtB> ACTION: adrian determine Kris' availability to work on the Web Messaging and Web Sockets implemenation reports
# [18:19] * RRSAgent records action 15
# [18:19] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [18:19] <trackbot> 'adrian' is an ambiguous username. Please try a different identifier, such as family name or username (e.g., abateman2, ayanes).
# [18:19] <ArtB> ACTION: barstow followup with Simon re running the Web Workers tests
# [18:19] * RRSAgent records action 16
# [18:19] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [18:19] <trackbot> Created ACTION-745 - Followup with simon re running the web workers tests [on Arthur Barstow - due 2014-11-03].
# [18:20] <Travis> chaals: XHR is on the agenda...
# [18:20] <Travis> ... Web Components?
# [18:20] <MikeSmith> ACTION: abateman2 to determine Kris' availability to work on the Web Messaging and Web Sockets implemenation reports
# [18:20] * RRSAgent records action 17
# [18:20] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [18:20] <trackbot> Created ACTION-746 - Determine kris' availability to work on the web messaging and web sockets implemenation reports [on Adrian Bateman - due 2014-11-03].
# [18:20] * Joins: kusakak (~kusakak@public.cloak)
# [18:21] <Travis> ArtB: Now showing Dmitri's status report on custom elements...
# [18:22] * Joins: hjshin (~hjshin@public.cloak)
# [18:22] <Travis> rniwa: For custom elements, the lifecycle methods are defined pretty vague. I believe this needs to be more well-defined.
# [18:22] <ArtB> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2014OctDec/0248.html -> Custom Elements status from Dimitri 2014-Oct-24
# [18:22] <Travis> ... "transitioning from script to user-agent code" not precise enough.
# [18:22] <Travis> ArtB: One other thing: on April meeting we talked a lot about these three specs.
# [18:22] <Domenic> +1
# [18:23] <Domenic> annevk was looking into the transition from script to user-agent code thing at one point
# [18:23] <Travis> ... dimitri has sent out requests for feedback, but it looks like no one is showing that must interest?
# [18:24] <Travis> sicking: in our experience, the spec is lacking and ambiguous; it's been hard to get things defined.
# [18:24] <Travis> ... we've tried to implement, but it's been hard/impossible.
# [18:24] <ArtB> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2014OctDec/0249.html -> HTML Imports status report frm Hajime on 2014-Oct-24
# [18:24] <Travis> ... I sadly have no specific examples, but it would be nice to address these issues.
# [18:25] * Joins: HZ (~HZ@public.cloak)
# [18:25] <Domenic> callbacks/transition from user code bug: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24579
# [18:25] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:25] <Travis> rniwa: I don't have a lot of time to engage in tech conference all the time; I'm pretty busy. I prefer to stick to the mailing list to work async.
# [18:25] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
# [18:25] <ArtB> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2014OctDec/0222.html -> Shadow DOM status report from Hayato on 2014-Oct-23
# [18:25] <Travis> chaals: Seems like folks want this and are waiting for it to be done.
# [18:25] * Joins: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak)
# [18:26] <Travis> sicking: Are the spec editors willing to have co-editors?
# [18:26] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
# [18:26] <Travis> chaals: chairs may be willing to appoint co-editors.
# [18:26] * Quits: Jinwang_Qi (~Jinwang_Qi@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:26] <Travis> ArtB: For resource committments, folks can talk to us
# [18:27] <Travis> rniwa: Given Mozilla is implementing, can we see some help from there.
# [18:27] * Joins: hallvors (~uid23371@public.cloak)
# [18:28] <Travis> (google) we're open to help (I work with dimitri)
# [18:29] * Quits: hjshin (~hjshin@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:29] <Travis> chaals: Poll says lots of folks enthusiastically ready to see this tech delivered. More test cases, spec editing help appreciated.
# [18:29] <Travis> ... volunteer now!
# [18:29] <Travis> ... or when you want to :-)
# [18:29] <smaug> tantek: are you following the discussion?
# [18:30] <timeless> scribe: timeless
# [18:30] <timeless> scribenick: timeless
# [18:30] <Travis> chaals: This sums up the review of pubstatus.
# [18:30] * Joins: jcraig_ (~jcraig@public.cloak)
# [18:30] <timeless> s/Travis/scribe/
# [18:30] <timeless> [ Break until 11:00 ]
# [18:30] * Quits: notbenjamin (~textual@public.cloak) ("My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…")
# [18:31] * Joins: tantek_ (~tantek@public.cloak)
# [18:31] <Zakim> -Olli_Pettay
# [18:31] <tyoshino> Present+ Takeshi_Yoshino
# [18:32] * Joins: a1zu (~androirc@public.cloak)
# [18:32] * Quits: a12u (~androirc@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [18:33] * Quits: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:33] * jcraig_ is now known as jcraig
# [18:33] * Quits: rniwa (~rniwa@public.cloak) (rniwa)
# [18:33] * Quits: kbx (~kbx@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:33] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:33] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
# [18:34] * Quits: wooglae (~wkim5@public.cloak) ("My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…")
# [18:34] * Quits: fjh (~fhirsch3@public.cloak) (fjh)
# [18:34] * Quits: forty41 (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [18:36] * Quits: brianraymor (~brianraymor@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:36] * Quits: HZ (~HZ@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:36] * Quits: aaa (~aaa@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:36] * Quits: makotom (~makotom@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:36] * Quits: spoussa (~spoussa@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:37] * Quits: a1zu (~androirc@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [18:37] * Quits: DaveWalp (~DaveWalp@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:37] * Quits: alan-i (~alan-i@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:37] * Joins: a1zu (~androirc@public.cloak)
# [18:38] * Quits: rubys (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [18:38] * Quits: LJWatson (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:39] * Quits: jhund (~jhund@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:41] * Joins: jhund (~jhund@public.cloak)
# [18:43] * Joins: rubys (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [18:43] * Parts: rubys (~Adium@public.cloak) (rubys)
# [18:44] * Quits: cyns (~cyns@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:45] * Quits: chaa13 (~chaa13@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:45] * Joins: jhund_ (~jhund@public.cloak)
# [18:47] * Joins: notbenjamin (~textual@public.cloak)
# [18:47] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [18:47] * Quits: notbenjamin (~textual@public.cloak) ("Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com")
# [18:47] * Joins: notbenjamin (~textual@public.cloak)
# [18:49] * Quits: jhund (~jhund@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:50] * Quits: Claes (~Claes@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:50] * Quits: waynecarr (~waynecarr@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:53] * Quits: stone (~stone@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:54] * Joins: makotom (~makotom@public.cloak)
# [18:56] * Joins: fjh (~fhirsch3@public.cloak)
# [18:57] <Zakim> +Domenic
# [18:59] <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
# [18:59] * Quits: a1zu (~androirc@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [18:59] <anssik> zakim, [IPcaller.a] is me
# [18:59] <Zakim> +anssik; got it
# [18:59] <anssik> Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen
# [19:00] <tyoshino> zakim, +1.650.318.aabb is me
# [19:00] <Zakim> +tyoshino; got it
# [19:00] <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
# [19:00] <smaug> Zakim, [IPcaller.a] is Olli_Pettay
# [19:00] <Zakim> +Olli_Pettay; got it
# [19:00] <smaug> Zakim, nick smaug is Olli_Pettay
# [19:00] <Zakim> ok, smaug, I now associate you with Olli_Pettay
# [19:01] <smaug> Present+ Olli_Pettay
# [19:03] * Joins: arunranga (~arunranga@public.cloak)
# [19:04] <MikeSmith> I am a fish
# [19:04] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@public.cloak) (sicking)
# [19:04] <timeless> Zakim, who is on the call?
# [19:04] <Zakim> On the phone I see [IPcaller], Portland, tyoshino, Domenic, anssik, Olli_Pettay
# [19:04] <ArtB> zakim, who's here?
# [19:04] <Zakim> On the phone I see [IPcaller], Portland, tyoshino, Domenic, anssik, Olli_Pettay
# [19:04] <Zakim> On IRC I see arunranga, fjh, makotom, notbenjamin, jhund_, tantek, jcraig, hallvors, zcorpan, kusakak, israelh, jrossi, hiroki, gludi|3, kurosawa, gludi_, youngwoojo, shepazu,
# [19:04] <Zakim> ... plinss, ShijunS, anssik, sam, bryan_, smaug, alia, Travis, benjamp, glenn, darobin, jungkees, RRSAgent, Zakim, adrianba, ArtB, marcosc, Zefa, chaals, lgombos, Hiroto_,
# [19:04] <Zakim> ... marcosc_, kochi1, kochi, tyoshino, igrigorik, stryx`_, stryx`, MikeSmith, botie, hober, paul___irish, slightlyoff, tobie, astearns, cwilso, timeless, scheib, hayato_, krit,
# [19:04] <Zakim> ... cabanier, jsbell
# [19:04] * Quits: hiroki (hiroki@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [19:05] <timeless> Zakim, [IPCaller] is probably lgombos
# [19:05] <Zakim> +lgombos?; got it
# [19:05] <tyoshino> Zakim, nick tyoshino is Takeshi_Yoshino
# [19:05] <Zakim> sorry, tyoshino, I do not see a party named 'Takeshi_Yoshino'
# [19:05] * Joins: a1zu (~androirc@public.cloak)
# [19:05] <tyoshino> Present+ Takeshi_Yoshino
# [19:05] * Joins: hiroki (hiroki@public.cloak)
# [19:05] * Joins: Claes (~Claes@public.cloak)
# [19:06] <timeless> Zakim, timeless has entered Portland
# [19:06] <Zakim> +timeless; got it
# [19:06] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [19:06] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
# [19:06] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@public.cloak)
# [19:07] * Joins: rniwa (~rniwa@public.cloak)
# [19:07] <makotom> present+ Makoto_Morise
# [19:07] * anssik is happy to see timeless is scribing :-)
# [19:07] <timeless> Topic: Streams
# [19:07] <timeless> present+ timeless
# [19:07] * Quits: Zefa (~Zefa@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [19:07] <timeless> chaals: we recently published Streams
# [19:07] * Joins: Zefa (~Zefa@public.cloak)
# [19:08] <timeless> ... Domenic, do you want to tell us where we're up to?
# [19:08] <timeless> Domenic: yeah
# [19:08] <timeless> ... from the previous discussion, the idea was to split the work into separate efforts
# [19:08] <ArtB> https://streams.spec.whatwg.org/ -> Streams by WHATWG
# [19:08] <timeless> ... one for low level JS API
# [19:08] <timeless> ... and then on top of that, one for Blobs
# [19:08] <timeless> ... a lot of the work tyoshino and I have worked on
# [19:08] * Joins: kbx (~kbx@public.cloak)
# [19:08] * timeless ??
# [19:08] <ArtB> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/streams-api/raw-file/tip/Overview.htm -> Streams API W3C Editor's Draft
# [19:08] <timeless> ... is going reallly well
# [19:08] * timeless -> url Title
# [19:08] * Joins: forty4 (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [19:08] * timeless ->> ArtB
# [19:08] * ArtB *??* is DD
# [19:09] <timeless> s/tyoshino/DD/
# [19:09] * Joins: jdsmith (~jdsmith@public.cloak)
# [19:09] * Joins: wooglae (~wkim5@public.cloak)
# [19:09] <timeless> ... the public API is extremely stable at this point
# [19:09] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@public.cloak)
# [19:09] <timeless> ... as we make these tweaks to external behavior
# [19:09] * Joins: spoussa (~spoussa@public.cloak)
# [19:09] <timeless> ... we've been maintaining a testsuite and a polyfil
# [19:09] <timeless> ... i think coverage of testsuite against polyfil should be 80% or higher
# [19:09] <timeless> ... which i'm really happy about
# [19:09] * Joins: waynecarr (~waynecarr@public.cloak)
# [19:09] <timeless> ... wrt the wider ecosystem
# [19:10] <timeless> ... there's been work to integrate with TCP Socket
# [19:10] * Quits: jhund_ (~jhund@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [19:10] <timeless> s|TCP|TCP/UDP|
# [19:10] <tyoshino> Polyfill -> https://github.com/whatwg/streams/tree/master/reference-implementation
# [19:10] * Joins: brianraymor (~brianraymor@public.cloak)
# [19:10] <waynecarr> present+ waynecarr
# [19:10] <timeless> ... Section Service Worker
# [19:10] <timeless> ... WebAudio
# [19:10] <timeless> s/DD/tyoshino/
# [19:11] <timeless> ... tyoshino has been working on ByteStreams
# [19:11] <timeless> ... that's been going really well
# [19:11] <timeless> ... we merged that this morning, it's at first-draft status
# [19:11] <tyoshino> ByteStream -> https://github.com/whatwg/streams/blob/master/BinaryExtension.md
# [19:11] <timeless> ... the public api is unchanged
# [19:11] <ArtB> -> https://github.com/whatwg/streams/issues?q=is%3Aopen WHATWG Streams Open Issues
# [19:11] <timeless> chaals: during the publishing discussion
# [19:11] <timeless> ... people said you have a mismatch between the spec and MSE
# [19:12] <adrianba> q+
# [19:12] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, adrianba on the speaker queue
# [19:12] <MikeSmith> ack makotom
# [19:12] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, adrianba on the speaker queue
# [19:12] <timeless> s|ByteStream -> https://github.com/whatwg/streams/blob/master/BinaryExtension.md|-> https://github.com/whatwg/streams/blob/master/BinaryExtension.md ByteStream|
# [19:12] <MikeSmith> ack MikeSmith
# [19:12] <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to comment
# [19:12] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [19:12] * jcraig thanks chaals (mic volume was bleeding into the CSS room)
# [19:12] <timeless> Domenic: we talked w/ the MSE spec author
# [19:12] <timeless> ... the old direction wasn't good
# [19:12] <timeless> ... we're looking on being able to integrate MSE streams w/ other streams in the ecosystems
# [19:12] <timeless> ... kind of the point
# [19:12] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [19:12] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [19:13] * Joins: sicking_ (~sicking@public.cloak)
# [19:13] <timeless> chaals: anyone here from an MSE who wants to speak?
# [19:13] <timeless> q?
# [19:13] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [19:13] * Joins: alan-i (~alan-i@public.cloak)
# [19:13] <timeless> jdsmith: we're still trying to evaluate the changes necessary to implement streams w/ the new model
# [19:13] <timeless> ... it's a moderate amount of work
# [19:13] <timeless> ... we haven't made a determination of the technical merits
# [19:13] <MikeSmith> ack adrianba
# [19:13] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:14] <ShijunS> present+ Shijun_Sun
# [19:14] * Joins: jhund (~jhund@public.cloak)
# [19:14] <timeless> adrianba: i wonder if there's a little confusion between MSE streams
# [19:14] <timeless> ... and MediaStreams in MediaCapture
# [19:14] <timeless> ... it sounded like what Domenic spoke about was more applicable to MediaStreams
# [19:14] <adrianba> http://www.w3.org/TR/2014/CR-media-source-20140717/#sotd
# [19:14] <timeless> ... in MSE we have a note
# [19:14] <chaals> q+ art
# [19:14] * Zakim sees art on the speaker queue
# [19:14] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [19:14] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
# [19:14] <timeless> s|http://www.w3.org/TR/2014/CR-media-source-20140717/#sotd|-> http://www.w3.org/TR/2014/CR-media-source-20140717/#sotd Media Source Extensions Status of This Document|
# [19:15] <timeless> adrianba: when we went to CR
# [19:15] <timeless> ... it was early in the work that Domenic was doing on the Stream API
# [19:15] <timeless> ... we took a dependency to a Stream Object
# [19:15] <timeless> ... a readable stream that could be read asynchronously
# [19:15] <timeless> ... i think that dependency should be to ReadableByteStream
# [19:15] <timeless> ... i don't think MSE has a big issue for integration
# [19:15] * Joins: plh (plehegar@public.cloak)
# [19:15] <alan-i> present+ Alan_Iida
# [19:16] <timeless> Domenic: i was talking with Aaron Kolel
# [19:16] <timeless> ... AppendStream
# [19:16] <timeless> ... could take readable stream with bytes
# [19:16] * Joins: miterho (~miterho@public.cloak)
# [19:16] <adrianba> s/Kolel/Colwell/
# [19:16] * Quits: Hiroto_ (~Hiroto@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [19:16] <timeless> ... we also want to expose a writeable stream
# [19:16] * Joins: aaa (~aaa@public.cloak)
# [19:16] <timeless> ... the AppendStream pattern is a little specific to MSE
# [19:17] <timeless> ... but we also want to allow people to just write to a WriteableStream
# [19:17] <timeless> adrianba: that makes sense
# [19:17] <timeless> Domenic: that shouldn't block MSE from advancing
# [19:17] * Quits: waynecarr (~waynecarr@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [19:17] * Joins: DaveWalp (~DaveWalp@public.cloak)
# [19:17] <timeless> s/WriteableStream/WritableStream/
# [19:17] * timeless We're sorry... /me ... but your computer or network may be sending automated queries. To protect our users, we can't process your request right now.
# [19:17] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [19:17] * sicking_ is now known as sicking
# [19:17] * timeless --- google does not like me
# [19:18] <chaals> ack art
# [19:18] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:18] <timeless> ArtB: at one point, there was discussion, that Streams would move into TC39
# [19:18] <timeless> ... and become part of EcmaScript
# [19:18] <timeless> ... is that still the plan?
# [19:18] <timeless> ... do you have any update on it?
# [19:18] <timeless> Domenic: as i've been working on it, i'm not sure
# [19:18] * Quits: gludi_ (~gludi@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [19:18] <timeless> ... it's JS
# [19:18] <timeless> ... it takes no dependencies on Web specific stuff
# [19:19] <timeless> ... on the other hand, EcmaScript is very small
# [19:19] <timeless> ... and this would be very big
# [19:19] <timeless> ... so I want to see what the committee says
# [19:19] <timeless> ... I'm sure this could ship in multiple environments, including Node.js
# [19:19] <timeless> ... not just theoretically, we (me) could get this shipping in Node.js
# [19:20] * Quits: gludi|3 (~kvirc@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [19:20] <timeless> israelh: how does the fact that there's this portion of Stream APIs in WHAT WG
# [19:20] <timeless> ... how do we take a dependency on that?
# [19:20] <timeless> ... I understand W3 process to documents
# [19:20] <timeless> ... but this other dependency
# [19:20] <timeless> chaals: there are 2 ways you can do it
# [19:20] <timeless> ... one, you can publish a version of the content @ W3C
# [19:21] <ArtB> q+ marcos
# [19:21] * Zakim sees marcos on the speaker queue
# [19:21] <timeless> ... WHATWG says "we can have specs you can fork, but we don't want you to"
# [19:21] <ArtB> ack marcos
# [19:21] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:21] <timeless> ack marcosc
# [19:21] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:21] * Domenic is having a hard time hearing marcosc
# [19:21] * Joins: tomoyuki (~Tomoyuki@public.cloak)
# [19:21] <timeless> marcosc: we had a call with tyoshino and others
# [19:21] <timeless> ... the WHAT WG version would be an ED
# [19:21] * Joins: myakura (~myakura@public.cloak)
# [19:21] <timeless> ... and we'd work with the W3 Process
# [19:22] * Joins: stone (~stone@public.cloak)
# [19:22] <timeless> ... because we understood it was important for MSE
# [19:22] <timeless> ... plh put forward the proposal to have [WHATWG] EDs in TR
# [19:22] <timeless> ... particularly for Streams
# [19:22] <timeless> Domenic: we had that call a while ago
# [19:23] <timeless> ... I agreed that if that's what it takes, that's what I'll do
# [19:23] <timeless> ... I'd like to investigate a way to reference directly
# [19:23] <timeless> ... if not, then we can just copy
# [19:23] <timeless> plh: on ED, what we're doing for this is to have no human involved in propagating WDs
# [19:23] <timeless> ... I wouldn't want people to lose focus
# [19:23] * Quits: alia (~alia@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [19:24] <timeless> ... on Wednesday, we'll have W3C 20
# [19:24] <timeless> ... we're going to use a plugin to broadcast live
# [19:24] <timeless> ... we have users today who'd love to broadcast live
# [19:24] <timeless> ... until we get Streams done, we can't do this without plugins
# [19:24] * adrianba think of the children
# [19:24] <timeless> ... can you get it done by Wednesday (and Deployed)
# [19:24] <timeless> s/)/)?/
# [19:24] <plh> plh: :)
# [19:25] <timeless> chaals: W3C needs to get a document, or people need to figure out how to reference
# [19:25] <timeless> ... this is politics... including us
# [19:25] <timeless> israelh: do we have an action item to do the copying?
# [19:25] <miterho> present+miterho
# [19:25] <timeless> Domenic: all commits are reference global by unique url
# [19:25] <timeless> ... you can reference a single version
# [19:25] <timeless> ... i'm willing to work with you guys on this process
# [19:26] <timeless> chaals: my understanding is that we have an agreement to publish a W3C version from time to time
# [19:26] <timeless> Domenic: i will not go back on that agreement, even though I like it less and less
# [19:26] <timeless> chaals: anything more on streams?
# [19:26] <timeless> ArtB: thanks Domenic
# [19:26] <Zakim> -Domenic
# [19:27] <Zakim> -anssik
# [19:27] <timeless> [ Break until 11:30 ]
# [19:27] <plh> s/broadcast live/broadcast live using HTML5/
# [19:27] * Quits: makotom (~makotom@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [19:28] * Joins: hiroto (~hiroto@public.cloak)
# [19:29] <Zakim> -tyoshino
# [19:29] * Quits: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak) ("Leaving...")
# [19:29] * Joins: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak)
# [19:29] * Quits: plh (plehegar@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
# [19:29] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [19:29] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [19:30] * Quits: brianraymor (~brianraymor@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [19:30] * ArtB pings hallvors - Hallvord will you join us for the XHR topic?
# [19:30] * Joins: brianraymor (~brianraymor@public.cloak)
# [19:30] <timeless> s|Polyfill -> https://github.com/whatwg/streams/tree/master/reference-implementation|-> https://github.com/whatwg/streams/tree/master/reference-implementation Polyfill|
# [19:30] <Zakim> + +47.21.65.aacc
# [19:31] <timeless> s|https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/streams-api/raw-file/tip/Overview.htm -> Streams API W3C Editor's Draft |-> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/streams-api/raw-file/tip/Overview.htm Streams API W3C Editor's Draft|
# [19:31] <timeless> Zakim, aacc is hallvors
# [19:31] <Zakim> +hallvors; got it
# [19:31] <timeless> s|https://streams.spec.whatwg.org/ -> Streams by WHATWG|-> https://streams.spec.whatwg.org/ Streams by WHATWG|
# [19:31] <timeless> Topic: XHR
# [19:31] <ArtB> -> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/xhr/raw-file/default/xhr-1/Overview.html XHR1 ED
# [19:31] <timeless> jungkees: we already discussed before the meeting
# [19:31] <timeless> ... speaking on behalf of the Editors
# [19:32] <timeless> ... we decided to publish a new version
# [19:32] <timeless> ... at W3C
# [19:32] <timeless> ... to have a stable version
# [19:32] * Quits: jdsmith (~jdsmith@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [19:32] <timeless> ... we will specify clearly that "this spec specifies features as of this date"
# [19:32] <Zakim> +tyoshino
# [19:32] * Quits: wooglae (~wkim5@public.cloak) ("Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com")
# [19:32] <MikeSmith> q+ to ask if bz is on board with that plan
# [19:32] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [19:32] <timeless> ... "but that for future versions/features, you will have to use the WHATWG version"
# [19:32] <ArtB> -> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/xhr/raw-file/default/xhr-1/Overview.html XHR L2 ED
# [19:33] * Yves q+
# [19:33] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, Yves on the speaker queue
# [19:33] * Joins: waynecarr (~waynecarr@public.cloak)
# [19:33] <timeless> chaals: straw poll, do people think that's a crazy idea?
# [19:33] <timeless> ... publish XHR1-legacy spec
# [19:33] <timeless> ... and that there is no current plan to work on future versions of XHR in this WG
# [19:33] <timeless> weinig: what's the value?
# [19:34] <timeless> chaals: there's value to have a referenceable version
# [19:34] <timeless> ... like what Spanish governments use
# [19:34] <MikeSmith> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2014OctDec/0164.html Comments from bz on earlier proposed options
# [19:34] * Joins: wooglae (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [19:34] * Joins: plh (plehegar@public.cloak)
# [19:34] <timeless> ... lots of people use this
# [19:34] <timeless> ... they use basic features of non bleeding edge technology
# [19:34] * Joins: rubys1 (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [19:34] <timeless> ... including XHR
# [19:34] <timeless> ... quite important to consumers/market
# [19:34] <Zakim> -Olli_Pettay
# [19:34] <timeless> ... they say, can we please have a stable version of the spec
# [19:34] * Joins: JonathanJ1 (~hollobit@public.cloak)
# [19:35] <timeless> ... W3C happens to be in a position to do that
# [19:35] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [19:35] * marcosc wants to say patent lawyers and government officials
# [19:35] <timeless> ... if you try to tell WebMasters working across Spain, they have real problems working within their legal requiements
# [19:35] <smaug> Zakim, [IPcaller] is Olli_Pettay
# [19:35] <Zakim> +Olli_Pettay; got it
# [19:35] <timeless> weinig: if we don't do it, what would spain do?
# [19:35] <timeless> s/spain/Spain/
# [19:35] <timeless> chaals: it depends on whereabouts you are
# [19:35] * Quits: wooglae (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [19:35] <timeless> ... some will go out and make stuff up
# [19:35] * Joins: wooglae (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [19:35] <adrianba> q+
# [19:35] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, Yves, adrianba on the speaker queue
# [19:36] <timeless> ... a lot of places will just NOT USE XHR
# [19:36] <timeless> ... which is destructive
# [19:36] * Quits: wooglae (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [19:36] <timeless> q?
# [19:36] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, Yves, adrianba on the speaker queue
# [19:36] <marcosc> q+
# [19:36] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, Yves, adrianba, marcosc on the speaker queue
# [19:36] * Joins: wooglae (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [19:36] <timeless> ... because XHR is really valuable
# [19:36] * Joins: gludi|3 (~kvirc@public.cloak)
# [19:36] <timeless> ack MikeSmith
# [19:36] <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to ask if bz is on board with that plan
# [19:36] * Zakim sees Yves, adrianba, marcosc on the speaker queue
# [19:36] <timeless> MikeSmith: it sounds like what you're planning to do is what bz thought was a good idea
# [19:36] * timeless -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2014OctDec/0164.html C
# [19:37] <timeless> ... but it's good to confirm this is in line with what bz suggested
# [19:37] <timeless> [ bz: If we want to publish something at all, I think this is the most ]
# [19:37] <timeless> [ ... reasonable option, frankly. I have no strong opinions on whether this ]
# [19:37] <timeless> [ ... is done REC-track or as a Note, I think, but I think such a document ]
# [19:37] <timeless> [ ... would in fact be useful to have if it doesn't exist yet. ]
# [19:37] <timeless> ack Yves
# [19:37] * Zakim sees adrianba, marcosc on the speaker queue
# [19:37] <timeless> Yves: what's the current status?
# [19:37] <marcosc> q-
# [19:37] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [19:38] <timeless> ... having only one document with errata?
# [19:38] <timeless> jungkees: the current ED / latest public WD
# [19:38] <timeless> ... don't have the changes from the Fetch spec
# [19:38] <timeless> ... what we're trying to do is publish the legacy capabilities and features that the browsers implement
# [19:38] <timeless> ... saying that this spec defines those capabilities / features that browsers implement as of this date
# [19:39] <timeless> Yves: do people want to add more things to XHR?
# [19:39] <timeless> jungkees: that would be XHR.2
# [19:39] <timeless> ... we don't have an idea of what that is
# [19:39] <timeless> ... annevk is working on Fetch
# [19:39] <timeless> ... he pointed out several features as well
# [19:39] * Quits: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak) (jcraig)
# [19:39] <chaals> q+
# [19:39] * Zakim sees adrianba, chaals on the speaker queue
# [19:39] <timeless> ... there will be more changes as time goes by
# [19:39] <timeless> ... we aren't following that point
# [19:39] * Joins: jeff_ (jeff@public.cloak)
# [19:40] <timeless> ... what we're trying to do as of now is that there's a pointer to the future spec (outside W3)
# [19:40] <timeless> ... the editors haven't discussed a v2 plan
# [19:40] <timeless> ... forking Fetch wouldn't really work
# [19:40] <timeless> ... WHATWG is working on Fetch very actively
# [19:40] <timeless> ack adrianba
# [19:40] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
# [19:40] <chaals> q+ art
# [19:40] * Zakim sees chaals, art on the speaker queue
# [19:40] <hallvors> q+
# [19:40] * Zakim sees chaals, art, hallvors on the speaker queue
# [19:41] <timeless> adrianba: XHR is a really old technology
# [19:41] <timeless> ... we (MS) shipped it a really long time ago
# [19:41] <timeless> ... I think there's a bunch of sites on the web that use it
# [19:41] <timeless> ... the Spanish people will use it once we get this done
# [19:41] <timeless> ... There are some issues w/ event ordering and other related things
# [19:41] <chaals> q-
# [19:41] * Zakim sees art, hallvors on the speaker queue
# [19:41] <timeless> ... I think there's particular value in having a REC with IP commitments
# [19:42] <timeless> ... I'd like to see this done w/ minimum effort
# [19:42] <timeless> ... get the legacy thing written down
# [19:42] * Joins: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak)
# [19:42] <timeless> ... don't worry too much about implementation differences
# [19:42] <marcosc> Q+
# [19:42] * Zakim sees art, hallvors, marcosc on the speaker queue
# [19:42] <timeless> ... I remember being here five years ago having the same discussion about the differences
# [19:42] * Joins: sunghan_ (~sunghan@public.cloak)
# [19:42] <timeless> ... the web hasn't collapsed
# [19:42] <timeless> ... let's get this done
# [19:42] <timeless> jungkees: we could publish as NOTE
# [19:42] <timeless> [ NOTE does not get IP committment ]
# [19:42] <timeless> ack ArtB
# [19:42] * Zakim sees art, hallvors, marcosc on the speaker queue
# [19:43] <timeless> ArtB: I support publishing
# [19:43] <plh> ack art
# [19:43] * Zakim sees hallvors, marcosc on the speaker queue
# [19:43] <timeless> ... at some point, we published Level 2
# [19:43] <timeless> ... we should at a minimum move this to WG NOTE, gut it, and include a pointer to WHATWG
# [19:43] <timeless> ... if there's support for that, I'll make a CfC for it
# [19:43] <timeless> ... on L1, do you want to move it to REC?
# [19:44] <timeless> jungkees: we thought it brings value to the industry
# [19:44] <chaals> q+
# [19:44] * Zakim sees hallvors, marcosc, chaals on the speaker queue
# [19:44] <timeless> ... but we'll follow the decision of the grou[
# [19:44] <timeless> s/[/p/
# [19:44] <timeless> ArtB: the plan of record is to take L1 to REC
# [19:44] <timeless> ack hallvors
# [19:44] * Zakim sees marcosc, chaals on the speaker queue
# [19:44] <timeless> hallvors: on the future of XHR and Fetch
# [19:44] <timeless> ... annevk's plan is to merge XHR into Fetch
# [19:45] <timeless> ... going forward, there may not be an XHR spec at WHATWG
# [19:45] <timeless> ... just a Fetch spec
# [19:45] <timeless> ... I think we should just get rid of the level 2 draft
# [19:45] <timeless> ... and just refer to whatever annevk has developed
# [19:45] <timeless> ack marcosc
# [19:45] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
# [19:45] <timeless> marcosc: i'd like to hear from the Editors what changes they expect to make
# [19:45] <timeless> ... and in what time frame
# [19:45] <timeless> ... let
# [19:45] <timeless> s/let/let's move this to PR/
# [19:46] <ArtB> ACTION: barstow start a CfC to gut XHR L2 and publish a WG Note
# [19:46] * RRSAgent records action 18
# [19:46] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [19:46] <trackbot> Created ACTION-747 - Start a cfc to gut xhr l2 and publish a wg note [on Arthur Barstow - due 2014-11-03].
# [19:46] <timeless> jungkees: the status of the document is WD
# [19:46] <timeless> ... we have a Test Suite
# [19:46] <hallvors> (I can't hear you anymore, not sure what happened)
# [19:46] <timeless> ... we have ~80% test cases passing more than 2 implementations
# [19:46] <timeless> Zakim, who is on the call?
# [19:46] <Zakim> On the phone I see lgombos?, Portland, hallvors, tyoshino, Olli_Pettay
# [19:46] <Zakim> Portland has timeless
# [19:46] <timeless> s/(I can't hear you anymore, not sure what happened)//
# [19:46] <timeless> ack chaals
# [19:46] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:47] <timeless> chaals: if the Editors have a spec
# [19:47] <ArtB> -> http://jungkees.github.io/XMLHttpRequest-test/ XHR Test Results
# [19:47] <Zakim> -hallvors
# [19:47] <timeless> ... and it's highly likely that people can put XHR in web sites
# [19:47] <timeless> ... and have it not fall over
# [19:47] <timeless> ... then we can take that argument to the Director
# [19:47] <Zakim> +hallvors
# [19:47] <timeless> ... and say that
# [19:47] <timeless> ... and that is how we'd get it out the door
# [19:47] <timeless> ... i'd like to return to the straw poll
# [19:48] <timeless> q?
# [19:48] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:48] <timeless> q+ Yves
# [19:48] * Zakim sees Yves on the speaker queue
# [19:48] <timeless> q+ rniwa
# [19:48] * Zakim sees Yves, rniwa on the speaker queue
# [19:48] <timeless> ... are there people who object to the proposal that we publish L1?
# [19:48] <timeless> [ None ]
# [19:48] <timeless> ... are there people who are in favor ofthe proposal that we publish L1?
# [19:48] <timeless> s/ofthe/of the/
# [19:48] <plh> ack Yves
# [19:48] * Zakim sees rniwa on the speaker queue
# [19:48] <timeless> [ A good number of hands ]
# [19:48] * ArtB uh, more like 8 years ;-)
# [19:48] <timeless> Yves: there are a couple of tests with failures
# [19:49] <timeless> ... due to implementation bugs
# [19:49] <timeless> ... it doesn't mean that the specification is failing
# [19:49] <timeless> ... they're bugs in the implementations
# [19:49] <timeless> ack rniwa
# [19:49] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:49] * adrianba yeah, i was just talking about the meeting in santa clara that was 5 years ago
# [19:49] * Joins: waynecarr_ (~waynecarr@public.cloak)
# [19:49] <timeless> rniwa: are there inconsistencies between the XHR1 spec and the WHATWG spec?
# [19:49] <hallvors> q+
# [19:49] * timeless was i minuting then?
# [19:49] * Zakim sees hallvors on the speaker queue
# [19:49] * timeless -> adrianba
# [19:49] * adrianba i think so
# [19:49] * timeless thought so
# [19:49] <timeless> jungkees: Fetch spec is more interested in the underlying details
# [19:50] <timeless> chaals: are there behavior differences?
# [19:50] <timeless> jungkees: annevk mentioned Service Worker
# [19:50] <timeless> ... but XHR2 doesn't cover that
# [19:50] <timeless> rniwa: does the current XHR1 spec have inconsistent behaviors to the WHATWG XHR spe
# [19:50] <timeless> s/spe/spec/
# [19:50] <plh> q+
# [19:50] * Zakim sees hallvors, plh on the speaker queue
# [19:50] <timeless> ... if someone implemented XHR1 perfectly and that was incompatible w/ WHATWG
# [19:50] <timeless> ... that would be bad
# [19:51] <timeless> jungkees: WHATWG just has more features
# [19:51] <timeless> ... there wouldn't be inconsistencies to the legacy behavior
# [19:51] * Quits: notbenjamin (~textual@public.cloak) ("My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…")
# [19:51] <timeless> marcosc: i don't think anyone would implement just XHR1
# [19:51] <timeless> q?
# [19:51] * Zakim sees hallvors, plh on the speaker queue
# [19:51] <timeless> chaals: people will use just XHR1
# [19:51] <Domenic> there are behavior diferences
# [19:51] <timeless> ack hallvors
# [19:51] * Zakim sees plh on the speaker queue
# [19:51] <Domenic> XHR1 does not go through service worker
# [19:51] <Domenic> WHATWG XHR goes through service worker
# [19:52] <timeless> hallvors: it's important that we not specify in XHR1 things that are incompatible w/ WHATWG
# [19:52] <timeless> ... most of the differences are due to refactors
# [19:52] * Quits: waynecarr (~waynecarr@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [19:52] <timeless> ... moving things from XHR to Fetch
# [19:52] <timeless> ... I think we should do some extra reviews to make sure we don't have incompatibilities
# [19:52] * marcosc hallvors! NO ONE IS GOING TO IMPLEMENT THE FORK
# [19:52] <timeless> ... so that developers who implement to our spec won't have to change and change back
# [19:52] <timeless> ack plh
# [19:52] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:53] <timeless> plh: I was going to say what I said to the CSS WG 8 years ago
# [19:53] <timeless> ... recommending a spec that isn't getting implemented isn't useful
# [19:53] <Domenic> earlier someone said publishing would be useful for developers. that is not true. tutorials are useful for developers, but a(n outdated) spec is not.
# [19:53] * hallvors marcosc: we'll have a testsuite that developers will presumably want to pass
# [19:53] <timeless> ... unless the implementers will change their implementation
# [19:53] <timeless> ... we need to spec what's implemented
# [19:53] <chaals> q+
# [19:53] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
# [19:53] * hallvors that's the point of having a test suite
# [19:53] <timeless> ... no use in recommending a spec that isn't implemented
# [19:53] <timeless> ... we need tests and make sure it's implemented
# [19:53] <timeless> ... this is what we need to spec
# [19:53] <timeless> ack chaals
# [19:53] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:53] <timeless> chaals: introducing known incompatibilities is dumb
# [19:54] <timeless> ... there's a use in having things defined that work
# [19:54] <timeless> ... there's nothing wrong with saying "doing this would be kind of dumb"
# [19:54] <adrianba> q+
# [19:54] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [19:54] <timeless> ... clarifying bits that would have trouble
# [19:54] <timeless> ... with a warning of where to look
# [19:55] <timeless> ... these are all good things
# [19:55] <timeless> ... including getting/giving IP commitments
# [19:55] * hallvors (for the record I think what we'll ship and what WHATWG has will be quite aligned)
# [19:55] <timeless> adrianba: it may be that to follow the CSS model, we may need to add some ambiguity to the spec
# [19:55] <timeless> [ laughter ]
# [19:55] * marcosc hallvors, you mean browser developers?
# [19:55] <timeless> adrianba: from the browser perspective, it isn't super important
# [19:55] <timeless> ... but to allow for developers to read this
# [19:55] <timeless> ... saying you should have things in a certain order
# [19:55] <timeless> ... if someone relies on this order, then that's a problem
# [19:56] * hallvors marcosc: I presume that's the demographic we're serving with a test suite, yes
# [19:56] <timeless> ... if we say "you should do it this way, but you can't rely on it this way"
# [19:56] <timeless> ... using those test results, we might want to codify those differences
# [19:56] <timeless> chaals: you want us to describe the known unknowns
# [19:56] <jeff_> present+ jeff
# [19:56] <timeless> adrianba: but not the unknown unkowns
# [19:56] <timeless> [ laughter ]
# [19:57] <timeless> chaals: seems there's quite a lot of support for the plan of record
# [19:57] <timeless> ... a spec that's useful that people can use
# [19:57] <timeless> ... and publish it
# [19:57] <timeless> ... i suggest that a provisional resolution is that's what we do
# [19:57] <timeless> ... objections?
# [19:57] <timeless> [ none ]
# [19:57] * Quits: plh (plehegar@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
# [19:57] * Quits: rubys1 (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [19:57] * Quits: marcosc (~marcosc@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [19:57] <timeless> [ Lunch until 1:00 pm ]
# [19:57] * Parts: alan-i (~alan-i@public.cloak)
# [19:57] <timeless> Topic: Push API and Service Workers
# [19:57] <Zakim> -Olli_Pettay
# [19:57] <xiaoqian> RRSAgent, drop minutes
# [19:57] <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'drop minutes', xiaoqian. Try /msg RRSAgent help
# [19:58] * Joins: marcosc (~marcosc@public.cloak)
# [19:58] * Quits: jeff_ (jeff@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
# [19:58] * Quits: a1zu (~androirc@public.cloak) ("AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )")
# [19:58] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [19:58] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [19:58] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@public.cloak) (weinig)
# [19:58] <Zakim> -lgombos?
# [19:58] * Quits: aaa (~aaa@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [19:58] * Quits: Claes (~Claes@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [19:58] * Quits: kbx (~kbx@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [19:58] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@public.cloak) (sicking)
# [19:59] * Quits: hiroki (hiroki@public.cloak)
# [19:59] <Zakim> -hallvors
# [19:59] * Quits: forty4 (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [20:00] * Quits: wooglae (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [20:00] * Quits: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [20:00] <ArtB> RRSAgent, help
# [20:00] <RRSAgent> More detailed help is available in http://www.w3.org/2002/03/RRSAgent
# [20:00] * Quits: waynecarr_ (~waynecarr@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [20:00] <RRSAgent> Some of the commands I know are:
# [20:00] <RRSAgent> silence - Stop logging (also: stop, off, ...)
# [20:00] <RRSAgent> listen - Start logging (also: start, on, ...)
# [20:00] <RRSAgent> excuse us - Leave the channel (also: bye)
# [20:00] <RRSAgent> grep [-i] [first-last|max] <perl regex> - Search the logs
# [20:00] <RRSAgent> e.g. grep foo, grep 5 bar, grep -i things [case independent]
# [20:00] <RRSAgent> append |mail EMAIL-ADDRESS to email results instead of printing
# [20:00] <RRSAgent> bookmark - Give the URI of the current log
# [20:00] <RRSAgent> show action items - give a list of ACTION: entries
# [20:00] <RRSAgent> drop action n - remove entry [n] from the list of action items
# [20:00] <RRSAgent> I respond to 'RRSAgent, command' in public and '/msg RRSAgent command' in private
# [20:00] <RRSAgent> Logging Policy: All public output is logged if I am listening except for
# [20:00] <RRSAgent> "action" messages (messages sent with the '/me' command) and
# [20:00] <RRSAgent> any lines starting [off]. All commands to me are logged.
# [20:00] <RRSAgent> My public output is logged but these lines are not searchable.
# [20:00] <ArtB> RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
# [20:00] <RRSAgent> The log is in http://www.w3.org/2014/
# [20:00] <RRSAgent> Do RRSAgent, adminhelp for help on administrative commands
# [20:00] * Joins: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak)
# [20:00] <RRSAgent> ok, ArtB; I will not start a new log at midnight
# [20:01] * Quits: brianraymor (~brianraymor@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [20:02] * Quits: ArtB (~abarsto@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [20:02] * Quits: chaals (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [20:04] * Quits: kusakak (~kusakak@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [20:04] * Quits: sam (osamu@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [20:04] * Quits: benjamp (~benjamp@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [20:04] * Quits: miterho (~miterho@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [20:04] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [20:04] * Quits: spoussa (~spoussa@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [20:05] * Quits: stone (~stone@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [20:05] * Quits: marcosc (~marcosc@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [20:05] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (tantek)
# [20:05] * Quits: jhund (~jhund@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [20:06] * Quits: youngwoojo (~youngwoojo@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [20:06] <Zakim> -tyoshino
# [20:07] * Quits: rniwa (~rniwa@public.cloak) (rniwa)
# [20:07] * Quits: Zefa (~Zefa@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [20:08] * Quits: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [20:09] * Quits: arunranga (~arunranga@public.cloak) (arunranga)
# [20:09] * Quits: jrossi (~jrossi@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [20:09] * Quits: DaveWalp (~DaveWalp@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [20:13] * Quits: Travis (~Travis@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [20:16] * Joins: mvano (~textual@public.cloak)
# [20:17] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [20:18] * Joins: myakura (~myakura@public.cloak)
# [20:19] * Quits: fjh (~fhirsch3@public.cloak) (fjh)
# [20:22] * Quits: JonathanJ1 (~hollobit@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [20:22] * Quits: adrianba (~adrianba@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [20:25] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [20:25] * Quits: israelh (~israelh@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [20:29] * Quits: ShijunS (~ShijunS@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [20:33] * Quits: sunghan_ (~sunghan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [20:33] * Quits: mvano (~textual@public.cloak) ("My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…")
# [20:34] * Joins: mvano (~textual@public.cloak)
# [20:35] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@public.cloak) ("is sleepy")
# [20:39] * Joins: arunranga (~arunranga@public.cloak)
# [20:40] * Quits: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak) (jcraig)
# [20:46] * Quits: kurosawa (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [20:47] * Quits: glenn (~gadams@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [20:51] * Joins: TNK (~KIMWOOGLAE@public.cloak)
# [20:54] * Joins: hiroki (hiroki@public.cloak)
# [20:55] * Joins: kusakak (~kusakak@public.cloak)
# [20:57] * Joins: johnmellor-chrome (~johnmellor-chrome@public.cloak)
# [20:57] * Joins: notbenjamin (~textual@public.cloak)
# [20:59] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [20:59] * Quits: notbenjamin (~textual@public.cloak) ("My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…")
# [20:59] <jsbell> Present+ Joshua_Bell
# [20:59] * Joins: wooglae (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [20:59] <Zakim> +??P1
# [21:00] <lgombos> Zakim, +[IPcaller] is lgombos
# [21:00] <Zakim> sorry, lgombos, I do not recognize a party named '+[IPcaller]'
# [21:00] * Quits: tomoyuki (~Tomoyuki@public.cloak) (tomoyuki)
# [21:00] * Joins: rubys (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [21:00] * Joins: benjamp (~benjamp@public.cloak)
# [21:00] <lgombos> Zakim, [IPcaller] is lgombos
# [21:00] <Zakim> +lgombos; got it
# [21:00] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@public.cloak)
# [21:01] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [21:01] * Joins: alan-i (~alan-i@public.cloak)
# [21:01] * Joins: notbenjamin (~textual@public.cloak)
# [21:01] * Joins: a12u (~androirc@public.cloak)
# [21:02] <smaug> Zakim, [IPcaller] is Olli_Pettay
# [21:02] <Zakim> +Olli_Pettay; got it
# [21:02] * Quits: kusakak (~kusakak@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [21:02] * Joins: DaveWalp (~DaveWalp@public.cloak)
# [21:02] <Zakim> + +44.207.095.aadd
# [21:02] * Joins: israelh (~israelh@public.cloak)
# [21:02] * Joins: abarsto (~abarsto@public.cloak)
# [21:02] * abarsto is now known as ArtB
# [21:03] * Joins: aaa (~aaa@public.cloak)
# [21:04] * Joins: rniwa (~rniwa@public.cloak)
# [21:04] * Joins: myakura (~myakura@public.cloak)
# [21:05] <timeless> Zakim, who is on the call?
# [21:05] <Zakim> On the phone I see Portland, lgombos, ??P1, Olli_Pettay, +44.207.095.aadd
# [21:05] <Zakim> Portland has timeless
# [21:05] * timeless who is on ??P1 ?
# [21:05] * Joins: brianraymor (~brianraymor@public.cloak)
# [21:05] <Zakim> -??P1
# [21:06] <mvano> 44 is me
# [21:06] <Zakim> +??P1
# [21:06] <timeless> Zakim, aadd is mvano
# [21:06] <Zakim> +mvano; got it
# [21:06] <johnmellor-chrome> I'm one of the people on the phone
# [21:06] <timeless> s/44 is me//
# [21:06] <timeless> Zakim, P1 is johnmellor-chrome
# [21:06] <Zakim> sorry, timeless, I do not recognize a party named 'P1'
# [21:06] <timeless> Zakim, ??P1 is johnmellor-chrome
# [21:06] <Zakim> +johnmellor-chrome; got it
# [21:06] <mvano> audio is terrible though
# [21:06] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [21:06] <timeless> s/audio is terrible though//
# [21:07] <ArtB> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2014OctDec/att-0283/RTC_and_Push_scenario.pdf Push API Slides by Shijun
# [21:07] <brianraymor> Present+ Brian_Raymor
# [21:07] <ArtB> zakim, who's here
# [21:07] <Zakim> ArtB, you need to end that query with '?'
# [21:07] <anssik> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
# [21:07] <Zakim> +anssik; got it
# [21:07] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [21:07] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [21:07] <ArtB> zakim, who's here?
# [21:07] * Joins: spoussa (~spoussa@public.cloak)
# [21:07] <Zakim> On the phone I see Portland, lgombos, Olli_Pettay, mvano, johnmellor-chrome, anssik
# [21:07] <Zakim> Portland has timeless
# [21:07] <Zakim> On IRC I see spoussa, brianraymor, myakura, rniwa, aaa, ArtB, israelh, DaveWalp, a12u, notbenjamin, alan-i, weinig, benjamp, rubys, wooglae, johnmellor-chrome, hiroki, TNK,
# [21:07] <Zakim> ... arunranga, mvano, gludi|3, hiroto, hallvors, plinss, anssik, bryan_, smaug, jungkees, RRSAgent, Zakim, lgombos, marcosc_, kochi1, kochi, tyoshino, igrigorik, stryx`_, stryx`,
# [21:07] <Zakim> ... MikeSmith, botie, hober, paul___irish, slightlyoff, tobie, astearns, cwilso, timeless, scheib, hayato_, krit, cabanier, jsbell, mkwst___, Domenic, FerasM__, dcooney___, pdr__,
# [21:07] <Zakim> ... Hixie
# [21:07] * Joins: marcosc (~marcosc@public.cloak)
# [21:08] * Quits: hiroto (~hiroto@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [21:08] <timeless> s|https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/streams-api/raw-file/tip/Overview.htm -> Streams API W3C Editor's Draft|-> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/streams-api/raw-file/tip/Overview.htm Streams API W3C Editor's Draft|
# [21:08] * Joins: alia (~alia@public.cloak)
# [21:08] <timeless> Topic: Introductions 2
# [21:08] <timeless> alex: Alex Russel, Google
# [21:08] * Joins: forty4 (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [21:08] <timeless> mounir: Mounir, Google
# [21:08] <ArtB> Present+ Alex_Russel, Mounir, Ben_Poulain
# [21:09] <Zakim> -mvano
# [21:09] <timeless> notbenjamin: Benjamin, Apple
# [21:09] <timeless> weinig: Sam Weinig, Apple
# [21:09] <timeless> norbert: Norbert Lindenberg, Invited Expert
# [21:09] * Quits: gludi|3 (~kvirc@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [21:09] <ArtB> Present+ Sam_Weining, Joshua_Bell, Norbert_Lindenberg, Kenji
# [21:09] <timeless> kenji: Kenji, Google
# [21:09] <timeless> Joshua_Bell: Joshua Bell, Google
# [21:09] <ArtB> zakim, who's here?
# [21:09] <Zakim> On the phone I see Portland, lgombos, Olli_Pettay, johnmellor-chrome, anssik
# [21:10] <Zakim> Portland has timeless
# [21:10] <Zakim> On IRC I see forty4, alia, marcosc, spoussa, brianraymor, myakura, rniwa, aaa, ArtB, israelh, DaveWalp, a12u, notbenjamin, alan-i, weinig, benjamp, rubys, wooglae,
# [21:10] <Zakim> ... johnmellor-chrome, hiroki, TNK, arunranga, mvano, hallvors, plinss, anssik, bryan_, smaug, jungkees, RRSAgent, Zakim, lgombos, marcosc_, kochi1, kochi, tyoshino, igrigorik,
# [21:10] <Zakim> ... stryx`_, stryx`, MikeSmith, botie, hober, paul___irish, slightlyoff, tobie, astearns, cwilso, timeless, scheib, hayato_, krit, cabanier, jsbell, mkwst___, Domenic, FerasM__,
# [21:10] <Zakim> ... dcooney___, pdr__
# [21:10] <timeless> lgombos: Lazlo Gombos, Samsung
# [21:10] <timeless> johnmellor-chrome: John Mellor, Google
# [21:10] <timeless> q?
# [21:10] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [21:10] <timeless> Zakim, who is on the call?
# [21:10] <Zakim> On the phone I see Portland, lgombos, Olli_Pettay, johnmellor-chrome, anssik
# [21:10] <Zakim> Portland has timeless
# [21:10] * anssik Anssi Kostiainen, Intel
# [21:10] <Zakim> + +44.207.346.aaee
# [21:10] <timeless> anssik: Anssi Kostiainen, Intel
# [21:10] * Joins: Claes (~Claes@public.cloak)
# [21:10] * Joins: hjlee (~hjlee@public.cloak)
# [21:10] <mounir> +Michael_van_Ouwerkerk
# [21:10] * Zakim wonders where Michael_van_Ouwerkerk is
# [21:11] <mounir> Present+ Michael_van_Ouwerkerk
# [21:11] <timeless> Michael_van_Ouwerkerk: Michael van Ouwerkerk, Google
# [21:11] <timeless> s/Topic: Push API and Service Workers//
# [21:11] <timeless> Topic: Push API and Service Workers
# [21:11] * timeless ArtB can you drop the link again?
# [21:11] * Joins: kusakak (~kusakak@public.cloak)
# [21:11] * Joins: waynecarr (~waynecarr@public.cloak)
# [21:11] * Joins: Norbert (~Norbert@public.cloak)
# [21:11] <timeless> QQ: The slides are based on the mailing list
# [21:12] <timeless> s/QQ/Shijun/
# [21:12] <timeless> ... We want to use Push
# [21:12] * Quits: a12u (~androirc@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [21:12] * Joins: a1zu (~androirc@public.cloak)
# [21:12] * Joins: adrianba (~adrianba@public.cloak)
# [21:12] <timeless> [ Slide 2 ]
# [21:12] <timeless> Purpose
# [21:12] <timeless> Make sure we understand the steps and options in the basic E2E flow
# [21:12] <timeless> of Real-Time Communications (RTC) with push message, i.e. push an
# [21:12] <timeless> “incoming call” notification to the user.
# [21:12] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
# [21:12] * Joins: kenneth__ (~kenneth@public.cloak)
# [21:12] <timeless> • Identify bottlenecks and open issues.
# [21:12] * Joins: kbx (~kbx@public.cloak)
# [21:12] <timeless> [ Slide 3 ]
# [21:13] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@public.cloak)
# [21:13] * Joins: kenneth_ (~uid11141@public.cloak)
# [21:13] <timeless> Priorities
# [21:13] <timeless> • Low latency
# [21:13] <timeless> • High reliability
# [21:13] <timeless> • High power efficiency
# [21:13] * Quits: kenneth__ (~kenneth@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [21:13] <timeless> [ Slide 4 ]
# [21:13] <timeless> < graphic >
# [21:13] <timeless> Shijun: if you use Skype.com
# [21:13] <timeless> ... the user goes there, logs in
# [21:13] * Joins: plh (plehegar@public.cloak)
# [21:13] <timeless> ... we want the app to be able to register something for the user
# [21:13] <plh> Present+ mnot
# [21:13] <timeless> ... it isn't sensitive to realtime
# [21:13] <timeless> ... the user isn't making a call yet
# [21:13] <timeless> ... we need to set up something for the service worker
# [21:14] <timeless> weinig: this proposal doesn't include the security model
# [21:14] <timeless> ... for insuring that you want that push?
# [21:14] * Joins: mt_ (~mt@public.cloak)
# [21:14] <timeless> Shijun: the security model isn't included in that yet
# [21:14] <timeless> ... I'm sure within the WG people here, there are people interested in Security/UI/...
# [21:14] * Joins: miterho (~miterho@public.cloak)
# [21:14] * Joins: Hyunjin (~Hyunjin@public.cloak)
# [21:14] <timeless> ... Here, we want to focus on Low latency, High reliability, High power efficiency
# [21:15] <timeless> israelh: The assumption we're making is that
# [21:15] <timeless> ... by the time you're going to deliver these messages
# [21:15] <timeless> ... the handshakes and correct permissions have happened at this point
# [21:15] <timeless> ... handshakes with servers
# [21:15] <timeless> ... client registration has been done
# [21:15] <timeless> weinig: doesn't that mean we should address them before?
# [21:15] <timeless> ... since they're pre-reqs
# [21:15] <timeless> Shijun: we recognize that it's an issue
# [21:16] <timeless> ... but the focus for us is to understand the scenario when the user makes a call/receives a call
# [21:16] <timeless> ... we're not trying to ignore/dismiss the other topics
# [21:16] <timeless> q?
# [21:16] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [21:16] <adrianba> q-
# [21:16] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [21:16] <timeless> q- adrianba
# [21:16] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [21:16] <timeless> [ Slide The Scenario: RTC call with push message ]
# [21:17] <timeless> Shijun: flows from app server to push server, push server to push client
# [21:17] * Joins: JonathanJ1 (~hollobit@public.cloak)
# [21:17] <timeless> ... push client to UA
# [21:17] <timeless> ... -- that's specific to the device
# [21:17] <timeless> ... it's implementation specific
# [21:17] <timeless> ... the next step is UA to Service Worker
# [21:17] <JonathanJ1> rrsagent, draft minutes
# [21:17] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html JonathanJ1
# [21:17] <timeless> [ #4. UA dispatch the message ]
# [21:18] <timeless> s/#/Slide -- #/
# [21:18] <timeless> • Current option
# [21:18] <timeless> a. UA wakes up the service worker (SW) and dispatch the message to the SW
# [21:18] <timeless> b. SW processes the message
# [21:18] <timeless> c. SW displays a notification, and optionally renders a ringtone
# [21:18] <timeless> d. Upon user click, SW launches the webapp
# [21:18] <timeless> Shijun: that's our expectation -- the sound isn't defined, just an expectation
# [21:19] <timeless> • Questions
# [21:19] <timeless> 1. Latency – How much latency between “UA receives the message” and “SW
# [21:19] <timeless> displays a notification” to user?
# [21:19] <timeless> 2. Reliability – Can SW stay alive until user click? (issue #85)
# [21:19] <timeless> 3. Power Efficiency – Are long-living SWs a problem to the device? (issue #84)
# [21:19] * Joins: chaals (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [21:19] <timeless> Shijun: are we introducing latency beyond the network overhead
# [21:19] <slightlyoff> q+
# [21:19] * Zakim sees slightlyoff on the speaker queue
# [21:19] <timeless> ... pause here for comments
# [21:20] <mounir> q?
# [21:20] * Zakim sees slightlyoff on the speaker queue
# [21:20] <mounir> q+ johnme
# [21:20] * Zakim sees slightlyoff, johnme on the speaker queue
# [21:20] <sicking> q+
# [21:20] * Zakim sees slightlyoff, johnme, sicking on the speaker queue
# [21:20] <timeless> rniwa: without knowing details of the api
# [21:20] <timeless> ... keeping the SW alive doesn't seem possible
# [21:20] <timeless> ... i could have my pc at work alive for 48 hours
# [21:20] <timeless> ... and get 50 notifications
# [21:20] <timeless> ... there's no way i want 50 SWs running on my computer when i get back
# [21:20] <bryan_> q+
# [21:20] * Zakim sees slightlyoff, johnme, sicking, bryan_ on the speaker queue
# [21:21] <timeless> ack slightlyoff
# [21:21] * Zakim sees johnme, sicking, bryan_ on the speaker queue
# [21:21] <timeless> slightlyoff: thanks for the detailed description of the process
# [21:21] <timeless> ... i think johnmellor-chrome will say the same
# [21:21] <timeless> ... SW is designed to be killable
# [21:21] <timeless> ... to get reliability back
# [21:21] <timeless> ... we'll pass a transparent structured data object to the SW
# [21:21] * Quits: Hyunjin (~Hyunjin@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [21:21] * Joins: song (~song@public.cloak)
# [21:21] <timeless> ... the application sends data w/ the notification
# [21:22] <timeless> ... when the notification is clicked, the data can be returned to the SW
# [21:22] <mounir> ack johnme
# [21:22] * Zakim sees sicking, bryan_ on the speaker queue
# [21:22] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
# [21:22] <timeless> ... this gives power efficiency and data avialability
# [21:22] <timeless> s/avialability/availability/
# [21:22] <timeless> johnmellor-chrome: latency in Chrome/Nexus 5 is <50ms
# [21:22] <timeless> ... you receive a message in Java
# [21:22] * Joins: youngwoojo (~youngwoojo@public.cloak)
# [21:22] <timeless> ... it wakes up the browser
# [21:22] <slightlyoff> q+
# [21:22] * Zakim sees sicking, bryan_, slightlyoff on the speaker queue
# [21:22] <timeless> ... it wakes up a SW
# [21:22] <mounir> s/50ms/750ms/
# [21:23] <timeless> ... we think it's possible to optimize this a lot
# [21:23] * mounir believes that was the number
# [21:23] <timeless> ack sicking
# [21:23] * Zakim sees bryan_, slightlyoff on the speaker queue
# [21:23] <timeless> sicking: we've found latency
# [21:23] <timeless> ... the most expensive piece is starting the relevant process
# [21:23] <timeless> ... starting a process to show a notification
# [21:23] <timeless> ... when the user clicks the notification
# [21:23] <timeless> ... we always need to start the related process
# [21:23] <timeless> ... that's the bottleneck
# [21:23] <timeless> ... -- in FirefoxOS
# [21:24] <timeless> ... it doesn't matter if we're starting a Worker or a UI
# [21:24] <timeless> ... when it comes to Phone calls
# [21:24] * Joins: chaa13 (~chaa13@public.cloak)
# [21:24] <timeless> ... vs. a Chat thing
# [21:24] <timeless> ... you don't want to just display a notification
# [21:24] <timeless> ... you often want a full screen thing
# [21:24] * Joins: song_ (~song@public.cloak)
# [21:24] <timeless> ... you want a picture of the caller, and a yes / no button
# [21:24] <timeless> ... to display that, we need the full process
# [21:24] <timeless> q?
# [21:24] * Zakim sees bryan_, slightlyoff on the speaker queue
# [21:24] <timeless> ack bryan_
# [21:24] * Zakim sees slightlyoff on the speaker queue
# [21:24] <timeless> bryan_: i'm assuming the question about latency will resolve itself
# [21:25] <timeless> ... based on experience w/ testing
# [21:25] <chaa13> q+ shujin
# [21:25] * Zakim sees slightlyoff, shujin on the speaker queue
# [21:25] <timeless> ... i'm assuming SW will minimize startup time
# [21:25] <timeless> ... I assume a WebRTC app that you use for calling
# [21:25] <timeless> ... will need a long lived SW
# [21:25] <sicking> q+
# [21:25] * Zakim sees slightlyoff, shujin, sicking on the speaker queue
# [21:25] <timeless> ... but we need to optimize this so the response to the incoming event is minimal
# [21:25] <timeless> ... the thing that receives the event could be a call app ui
# [21:26] <timeless> ... to the extent that this is dependent on browser technology
# [21:26] <timeless> ack slightlyoff
# [21:26] * Zakim sees shujin, sicking on the speaker queue
# [21:26] <timeless> slightlyoff: your 8s window target
# [21:26] <timeless> ... -> shujin
# [21:26] <timeless> ... what does that include?
# [21:26] * Joins: aaa_ (~aaa@public.cloak)
# [21:26] <timeless> [ Slide #4-a. Alternative option ]
# [21:26] <timeless> shujin: the end to end latency
# [21:26] <timeless> ... from server to device
# [21:27] <timeless> ... and coming back with confirmation
# [21:27] <timeless> ... 65% <1s
# [21:27] * timeless someone 8s ? 8ms ? ???
# [21:27] <timeless> ... for the app to launch the background process is pretty fast
# [21:27] * mounir timeless I think slightlyoff said 8s
# [21:27] <timeless> q?
# [21:27] * Zakim sees shujin, sicking on the speaker queue
# [21:27] * timeless mounir thanks
# [21:27] * Joins: Zefa (~Zefa@public.cloak)
# [21:27] <timeless> ack sh
# [21:27] * Zakim sees sicking on the speaker queue
# [21:27] <timeless> ack sicking
# [21:27] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [21:28] <timeless> sicking: we have System Messages, which are like SW
# [21:28] <timeless> ... we found that works really really well
# [21:28] <timeless> ... we have yet to find an instance where we need to keep an application running in the background
# [21:28] <timeless> ... we find additional events to wake the application
# [21:28] <timeless> ... if an app wants to poll, it can use a scheduler
# [21:28] * Quits: JonathanJ1 (~hollobit@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [21:28] <timeless> ... for online, we can use notices
# [21:28] * Joins: JonathanJ1 (~hollobit@public.cloak)
# [21:28] <timeless> ... for incoming messages when the device is off
# [21:29] <timeless> ... we can have a startup message and deliver the messages
# [21:29] <timeless> ... we haven't found a case where we need long running background
# [21:29] <timeless> slightlyoff: did you have 85/95% numbers?
# [21:29] * Quits: botie (botie@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [21:29] <timeless> shujin: no
# [21:29] <timeless> ... our experience isn't browser specific
# [21:29] <timeless> [ Slide #4-a. Alternative option ]
# [21:30] <timeless> • Proposal
# [21:30] <timeless> a. The push client wakes up a lightweight independent background process and pass the message to
# [21:30] <timeless> it
# [21:30] <timeless> • The background process can be developed by browser implementers
# [21:30] <timeless> • This process only handles push messages
# [21:30] <timeless> • The push client automatically wakes up this process when needed
# [21:30] <timeless> b. The background process parses the message property to identify predefined action(s)
# [21:30] <timeless> • The process only executes a small set of predefined actions: display notification, play ringtone
# [21:30] <timeless> • PushRegistraiton can be registered with the predefined action(s)
# [21:30] <timeless> c. If predefined actions are identified, the background process displays a notification, and optionally
# [21:30] <timeless> renders a preloaded ringtone
# [21:30] <timeless> d. Upon user click, the background process launches the UA which in turn forwards the push
# [21:30] <timeless> message to either a webapp or a SW
# [21:31] * Quits: aaa (~aaa@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [21:31] * Joins: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak)
# [21:31] * Joins: jrossi (~jrossi@public.cloak)
# [21:31] * timeless PushRegistraiton <- is an error in the slide, not the Scribe
# [21:31] <slightlyoff> q+
# [21:31] * Zakim sees slightlyoff on the speaker queue
# [21:32] <MikeSmith> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2014OctDec/att-0283/RTC_and_Push_scenario.pdf "Scenario analysis: RTC call with push message" slides from Shijun
# [21:32] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [21:32] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [21:32] <timeless> shujin: the background process is an extension of the push client
# [21:32] <chaals> ack sl
# [21:32] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [21:32] <timeless> ... that's the solution we see, which could be more friendly for mobile devices
# [21:32] <mounir> q?
# [21:32] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [21:32] * Joins: kurosawa (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
# [21:32] <timeless> slightlyoff: what is the memory/cpu cost of the persistent background process?
# [21:33] <timeless> ... we've found we're middle of the pack for Chrome for push messages (cpu/memory)
# [21:33] <timeless> ... vs. gmail/facebook
# [21:33] * Joins: Jun_MA (~Jun_MA@public.cloak)
# [21:33] <sicking> q+
# [21:33] * Zakim sees sicking on the speaker queue
# [21:33] <timeless> shujin: i don't have the numbers handy, but i can give the numbers to the ML
# [21:33] <MikeSmith> i/Slide 2/-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2014OctDec/att-0283/RTC_and_Push_scenario.pdf "Scenario analysis: RTC call with push message" slides from Shijun
# [21:34] <mt_> q+
# [21:34] * Zakim sees sicking, mt_ on the speaker queue
# [21:34] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [21:34] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [21:34] <slightlyoff> q+
# [21:34] * Zakim sees sicking, mt_, slightlyoff on the speaker queue
# [21:34] <timeless> ... this is what is recommended to Windows apps
# [21:34] * Quits: song_ (~song@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [21:34] * chaals wonders who mt_ is
# [21:34] <timeless> ... for push message in Windows, >99% of the messages are processed by the background process
# [21:34] <timeless> ... IE is considered by Windows as an application
# [21:35] <timeless> ... and it should have a separate background process
# [21:35] <timeless> ack sicking
# [21:35] * Zakim sees mt_, slightlyoff on the speaker queue
# [21:35] <timeless> sicking: i think that's the model that the spec is proposing
# [21:35] <timeless> ... except that, the background process is the SW
# [21:35] <timeless> ... i think what jake is proposing, is
# [21:35] <timeless> ... in what instances do you only want to display a notification/ringtone
# [21:35] <johnmellor-chrome> q+
# [21:35] * Zakim sees mt_, slightlyoff, johnmellor-chrome on the speaker queue
# [21:35] <timeless> ... if you're playing a ringtone, you also want to render an onscreen ui
# [21:36] <johnmellor-chrome> q-
# [21:36] * Zakim sees mt_, slightlyoff on the speaker queue
# [21:36] <mounir> q+
# [21:36] * Zakim sees mt_, slightlyoff, mounir on the speaker queue
# [21:36] <timeless> ... if you're displaying something, you might want to download data
# [21:36] <timeless> shujin: analogy, each website as an independent app
# [21:36] <timeless> ... from the User perspective, each website might want to tailor the experience
# [21:37] <timeless> ... but based on the ML discussion, there's a tradeoff between how long you can keep a SW alive
# [21:37] <timeless> ... and how much can be done in a SW
# [21:37] <timeless> ... what we're proposing
# [21:37] <timeless> ... IE has a special background SW
# [21:37] <timeless> ack mt_
# [21:37] * Zakim sees slightlyoff, mounir on the speaker queue
# [21:37] <timeless> mt_: (Martin Thomson)
# [21:37] <timeless> ... what you're asking for is something faster than the XX ms
# [21:37] <timeless> ... i don't think this requires more than a lightweight process
# [21:38] <timeless> ... an SW spins up whatever is necessary to run the js in the SW
# [21:38] <timeless> ... a very lightweight process that handles the notification, handles it
# [21:38] <weinig> q+
# [21:38] * Zakim sees slightlyoff, mounir, weinig on the speaker queue
# [21:38] <timeless> ... if that requires launching the rendering engine
# [21:38] * Quits: jrossi (~jrossi@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [21:38] <timeless> ... it invokes the API for that, to get that
# [21:38] <timeless> ... i don't see that's a problem
# [21:38] <timeless> ... I see an opportunity for the OS
# [21:38] <timeless> ... for the lightweight process to be able to handle the notification w/o starting a SW
# [21:39] <timeless> ... a message comes down, immediately rendered into the notification window
# [21:39] <weinig> q-
# [21:39] * Zakim sees slightlyoff, mounir on the speaker queue
# [21:39] <timeless> ... maybe we can provide a way to say that certain messages can become a notification directly
# [21:39] * Quits: kbx (~kbx@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [21:39] <mounir> ack slightlyoff
# [21:39] * Zakim sees mounir on the speaker queue
# [21:39] <timeless> ack slightlyoff
# [21:39] * Zakim sees mounir on the speaker queue
# [21:39] <timeless> slightlyoff: in SW, we note where we don't know what we don't know
# [21:39] <timeless> ... where app-cache failed
# [21:40] <timeless> ... we have this because we don't have a good track record of doing that
# [21:40] <timeless> ... i caution us to use data
# [21:40] <timeless> ... 750ms is the full time w/ Chrome + background process
# [21:40] * Parts: wooglae (~Adium@public.cloak) (wooglae)
# [21:40] <timeless> ... the entire world of optimizing is several quarters forward
# [21:40] <timeless> ... we think there's a huge ramp of oportunities
# [21:40] * Joins: wooglae (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [21:40] <timeless> ... i'd like us to prefer generality over specific cases
# [21:41] <timeless> ... if there's specific evidence for the relative weight
# [21:41] <timeless> ... if you have credible evidence
# [21:41] <timeless> ... i'd like to caution us on specifics w/o data
# [21:41] <timeless> mounir: the push team at Google when we designed the Push API
# [21:41] <timeless> ... we thought about a specific API for notifications
# [21:41] <timeless> ... for the reason sicking noted
# [21:41] <timeless> ... a lot of sites will have different needs
# [21:42] <timeless> ... as noted earlier, we could make that optimization later
# [21:42] <timeless> ... offering faster
# [21:42] <timeless> ... unlike app-cache (not working)
# [21:42] <timeless> israelh: maybe the paradigms that we're looking at
# [21:42] <timeless> ... from our perspective, we wanted a common paradigm
# [21:42] <timeless> ... we wanted very little you could customize
# [21:42] <timeless> ... maybe the various more powerful rendering experiences we didn't want
# [21:43] <timeless> ... we wanted a more cohesive experience
# [21:43] * Joins: bkardell_ (~uid10373@public.cloak)
# [21:43] <timeless> ... our model is how we've been doing it since Windows 8 (3 years)
# [21:43] <timeless> ... we need to give you the specifics, i agree
# [21:43] <johnmellor-chrome> q+
# [21:43] * Zakim sees mounir, johnmellor-chrome on the speaker queue
# [21:43] <timeless> ... this subprocess we're describing is very specialized
# [21:43] <timeless> ... only for push
# [21:43] <timeless> ... we didn't need to enable more
# [21:44] <timeless> ... that we'll have the UA in control
# [21:44] <timeless> ... allow the SW that are instantiated to get the message
# [21:44] <mt_> I think that perhaps slightlyoff is casting this in the wrong light: SW *is* a lightweight process in a sense, but it just gets forced to be idle if it isn't dealing with an event
# [21:44] <timeless> ... we aren't saying it isn't a good thing
# [21:44] <timeless> ... offering an intermediary that's sort of lightweight
# [21:44] <timeless> ack mounir
# [21:44] * Zakim sees johnmellor-chrome on the speaker queue
# [21:44] <timeless> mounir: with your process
# [21:44] <timeless> ... if i want to update my database
# [21:44] <timeless> ... say i have a tutor client
# [21:44] <timeless> ... i get a message
# [21:44] <timeless> ... i don't click on it
# [21:44] <timeless> ... i go offline
# [21:44] <timeless> ... the app can't save that?
# [21:45] <timeless> israelh: there are different types of pushes
# [21:45] <timeless> ... some are raw data type
# [21:45] <timeless> ... which potentially push to the app running behind the scenes
# [21:45] <timeless> ... that gets the registered events
# [21:45] <timeless> shujin: in our case, the push message is the raw format
# [21:45] <timeless> ... in comparison to the windows messages
# [21:45] * Joins: Hyunjin (~Hyunjin@public.cloak)
# [21:46] <timeless> ... we're talking about letting the developers choose simple/lightweight or not
# [21:46] <timeless> ... giving the developer more power, from a different perspective
# [21:46] <timeless> mounir: you're making an early assumption
# [21:46] <chaals> q+ dan
# [21:46] * Zakim sees johnmellor-chrome, dan on the speaker queue
# [21:46] <timeless> ... that developers get a push message, and show a notification
# [21:46] <mt_> q+
# [21:46] * Zakim sees johnmellor-chrome, dan, mt_ on the speaker queue
# [21:46] <timeless> ... many times the developer might get data, and show the notification later
# [21:47] <timeless> shujin: i agree we shouldn't remove that from the developer
# [21:47] <timeless> ... if the message has enough information that the developer can do without predefined actions, that's still available
# [21:47] * Joins: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak)
# [21:47] <timeless> ... when SW is run on different devices
# [21:47] <timeless> ... whether a SW can complete is another question
# [21:47] <timeless> ... whether to enable a rich experience, somehow we might not be able to guarantee
# [21:47] <timeless> ack johnmellor-chrome
# [21:47] * Zakim sees dan, mt_ on the speaker queue
# [21:47] <timeless> johnmellor-chrome: the standard thing is notifications
# [21:48] <timeless> ... when i look at a native app
# [21:48] <timeless> ... if an app is in the foreground, it usually won't show a notification
# [21:48] <timeless> ... some apps will only show notifications if you aren't looking at inbox
# [21:48] <timeless> ... some apps will download content
# [21:48] <timeless> ... gmail might get data
# [21:48] <timeless> ... but only show information if you've configured labels that match the data
# [21:48] <timeless> ... you could imagine location specific decisions
# [21:48] <timeless> q?
# [21:48] * Zakim sees dan, mt_ on the speaker queue
# [21:49] <timeless> ack dan
# [21:49] * Zakim sees mt_ on the speaker queue
# [21:49] * Joins: tomoyuki (~tomoyuki@public.cloak)
# [21:49] <mounir> q+
# [21:49] * Zakim sees mt_, mounir on the speaker queue
# [21:49] <timeless> ddruta: i think it would be useful if the push could go to different UAs
# [21:49] <timeless> ack mt_
# [21:49] * Zakim sees mounir on the speaker queue
# [21:49] <mounir> q-
# [21:49] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [21:49] <timeless> shujin: the push client is an OS component
# [21:49] <timeless> q+ mt_
# [21:49] * Zakim sees mt_ on the speaker queue
# [21:50] <timeless> ... apps can implement their own SWs
# [21:50] <timeless> ack mt_
# [21:50] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [21:50] <timeless> mt_: i think we're reaching the saturation point
# [21:50] <timeless> ... a lot of the pushback is around the optimizations MS made
# [21:50] <timeless> ... people aren't seeing strong justification for doing
# [21:50] <timeless> ... that's what I got from slightlyoff , that's what i got from johnmellor-chrome
# [21:50] <timeless> q+ timeless
# [21:50] * Zakim sees timeless on the speaker queue
# [21:51] <timeless> ... i think you should go back to the people at MS and ask why they put in the shortcuts
# [21:51] <timeless> ... something more generic would be useful here
# [21:51] <timeless> ... we could make this optimization available
# [21:51] <timeless> ... but there are costs involved
# [21:51] <timeless> ... with the api as structured
# [21:51] <chaals> scribe: chaals
# [21:51] <timeless> ... those costs are significant
# [21:51] <chaals> Timeless: They wanted to enforce a consistent UI. (Answering MT_)
# [21:52] <chaals> … every time the userhas a similar thing, in a different client, they want it to look the same. (This is what Shujin said)
# [21:52] <chaals> … as a user, I support that goal.
# [21:52] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@public.cloak)
# [21:52] <timeless> scribe: timeless
# [21:53] <timeless> israelh: as you get a flurry of notifications
# [21:53] <timeless> ... the client can synthesize those
# [21:53] <timeless> ... it can buffer those notifications together
# [21:53] * Joins: jrossi (~jrossi@public.cloak)
# [21:53] * Joins: Hyunjin_ (~Hyunjin@public.cloak)
# [21:53] <timeless> s/Timeless/timeless/
# [21:53] <timeless> ... I don't think we're saying that the model shouldn't support SW
# [21:53] <timeless> ... that isn't what we're saying
# [21:53] <timeless> ... what we're saying, what others are calling optimizations
# [21:53] <timeless> ... we'd like to see a mechanism where those optimizations are allowed, enabled, encouraged
# [21:53] <timeless> ... as opposed to no, it has to be this other way
# [21:54] <timeless> mounir: could we keep that door open for a v2 api?
# [21:54] <timeless> ... as opposed to v1
# [21:54] * Quits: alia (~alia@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [21:54] * Quits: brianraymor (~brianraymor@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [21:54] <timeless> israelh: we were under the impression that the Push API was still early enough
# [21:54] <timeless> ... that we could make those comments
# [21:54] <timeless> ... if we think we're at LC for Push
# [21:54] <timeless> mounir: i don't think it's an API maturity
# [21:54] <timeless> ... i think it's a developer feedback issue
# [21:54] * Quits: Zefa (~Zefa@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [21:54] * Quits: forty4 (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [21:55] * ArtB wonders if the Push API contributors are using some type `enhancement` label for v.next bugs/issues/enhancement requests?
# [21:55] * Joins: forty4 (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [21:55] <sicking> q+
# [21:55] * Zakim sees timeless, sicking on the speaker queue
# [21:55] <timeless> q-
# [21:55] * Zakim sees sicking on the speaker queue
# [21:55] <timeless> kenji: as the PM for the team implementing SW
# [21:55] <timeless> ... if you can provide developer feedback to explain why
# [21:55] <timeless> ... that's good feedback for us as well
# [21:55] * Quits: kurosawa (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [21:55] <timeless> shujin: would it be helpful if we could propose an API?
# [21:56] <timeless> ... put on the ML for discussion?
# [21:56] <timeless> ... and then discuss for current spec
# [21:56] <timeless> sicking: one way to get implementation/developer feedback right now
# [21:56] <timeless> ... is looking at existing apps
# [21:56] * Joins: alia (~alia@public.cloak)
# [21:56] <timeless> ... do existing apps
# [21:56] <timeless> ... where the only thing they do is play a ringer/display a notification
# [21:56] <timeless> ... we know twitter only displays a notification
# [21:56] <timeless> ... but when you click it, you might not see the tweet
# [21:56] <timeless> ... provide UCs
# [21:56] <Zakim> +arunranga
# [21:56] * Quits: Hyunjin (~Hyunjin@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [21:57] <timeless> q+ timeless to point to BB10 apps
# [21:57] * Zakim sees sicking, timeless on the speaker queue
# [21:57] <timeless> shujin: we can go back and collect the data
# [21:57] <arunranga> Zakim, mute me
# [21:57] <Zakim> arunranga should now be muted
# [21:57] <timeless> ack sicking
# [21:57] * Zakim sees timeless on the speaker queue
# [21:57] <chaals> q+
# [21:57] * Zakim sees timeless, chaals on the speaker queue
# [21:57] <chaals> ack ti
# [21:57] <Zakim> timeless, you wanted to point to BB10 apps
# [21:57] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
# [21:57] * Quits: aaa_ (~aaa@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [21:58] * Quits: TNK (~KIMWOOGLAE@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [21:58] * Joins: forty41 (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [21:59] <timeless> ack timeless
# [21:59] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
# [21:59] <schuki> timeless: use case for blackberry is normal things, you can send push notifications, we had categories and common apps fit into these categories
# [21:59] <schuki> ... for most of these things it worked well
# [21:59] <schuki> ... some thingdid drain battery, but most didn't
# [21:59] <timeless> chaals: would people like to see an api?
# [21:59] <timeless> [ a number of hands for yes ]
# [21:59] * Quits: forty41 (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [21:59] <timeless> chaals: or would people like to see data?
# [21:59] <timeless> sicking: i'd like to see data?
# [21:59] <timeless> weinig: what data?
# [21:59] * Joins: Hyunjin (~Hyunjin@public.cloak)
# [21:59] * plh gives "abcde" as data :)
# [21:59] <timeless> chaals: would people like to see UCs?
# [21:59] * Joins: hiroto__ (~hiroto@public.cloak)
# [21:59] <timeless> weinig: i would
# [21:59] <timeless> israelh: a quick clarification on UCs
# [22:00] * Joins: kurosawa (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
# [22:00] <timeless> ... how much more detailed on UCs do you want to see?
# [22:00] * Quits: Hyunjin_ (~Hyunjin@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [22:00] <timeless> ... for example Twitter, Facebook, Email client
# [22:00] <timeless> ... the UCs are fairly common
# [22:00] <timeless> ... what granularity are you looking for?
# [22:00] <timeless> sicking: those UCs need to come w/ numbers
# [22:00] * Joins: forty41 (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [22:00] <timeless> ... if you show Email clients only show notification w/o fetching data
# [22:00] <timeless> israelh: if you want only numbers
# [22:00] <timeless> ... perhaps i can give you just numbers
# [22:01] <timeless> ... these types of apps do these types of things
# [22:01] <timeless> ... our Store app shows notifications when it finishes updating/downloading
# [22:01] <timeless> ... shows notifications for new apps/updates available
# [22:01] <timeless> ... popular apps w/ this type of behavior
# [22:01] <timeless> s/schuki/scribe/
# [22:01] <timeless> s/schuki/scribe/
# [22:01] <timeless> s/schuki/scribe/
# [22:01] * Quits: DaveWalp (~DaveWalp@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [22:02] <timeless> weinig: in terms of UCs, I think we heard a lot of UCs here
# [22:02] * Quits: forty4 (~Adium@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [22:02] <timeless> ... it would be good if you came with a specific list
# [22:02] <mounir> s/sicking: those UCs need to come/mounir: those UCs need to come/
# [22:02] <timeless> ... and then to slightlyoff, indicate which UCs go with which patterns
# [22:02] * mounir timeless I really appreciate you confusing me with sicking :)
# [22:02] * timeless sigh
# [22:02] <timeless> q?
# [22:02] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
# [22:02] <timeless> israelh: we can work with that
# [22:02] <timeless> ack chaals
# [22:02] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [22:02] <timeless> chaals: thank you, we're done
# [22:03] <timeless> s/thank you, we're done/we're done, thank you/
# [22:03] * Joins: glenn (~gadams@public.cloak)
# [22:03] <timeless> bryan_: in the last month, there were a number of issues raised to github
# [22:03] <timeless> ... a number have reached consensus
# [22:03] <timeless> ... a number have engendered discussion
# [22:03] * schuki gets ready
# [22:04] <timeless> ArtB: we have a lot of holes in tomorrow's agenda
# [22:04] <timeless> ... if you want to use slots
# [22:04] * schuki i have some lag on client
# [22:04] <timeless> bryan_: yeah
# [22:04] * schuki oh closing skype fixed it... whaddya know
# [22:04] <timeless> chaals: the 11-3pm overlaps with AC
# [22:04] <mt_> I'd like to get any decision on the agenda change promptly
# [22:05] <bryan_> I suggest we update the wiki with the "lightweight / low latency" use cases
# [22:05] * Quits: rubys (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [22:05] <timeless> weinig: is there a place where the workflow for clients can be seen?
# [22:05] <timeless> ... i looked at the slidedeck
# [22:05] * Joins: fjh (~fhirsch3@public.cloak)
# [22:05] <timeless> weinig: "client" = "web site author"
# [22:05] * Quits: fjh (~fhirsch3@public.cloak) (fjh)
# [22:05] <timeless> mounir: client registers for push, you get server+registration id
# [22:05] * Joins: fjh (~fhirsch3@public.cloak)
# [22:05] * Joins: rubys (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [22:05] <timeless> ... developer sends that from client to its own server
# [22:06] * Quits: fjh (~fhirsch3@public.cloak) (fjh)
# [22:06] <timeless> ... which then talks to the server w/ the registration id
# [22:06] * Joins: fjh (~fhirsch3@public.cloak)
# [22:06] <timeless> ... apple has its own push server
# [22:06] <timeless> weinig: if a client wants to use push notifications
# [22:06] <timeless> ... they need separate agreements w/ each vendor?
# [22:06] <timeless> [ YES ]
# [22:06] <sicking> q+
# [22:06] * Zakim sees sicking on the speaker queue
# [22:06] <timeless> mounir: there's a separate discussion in IETF to standardize that
# [22:06] <timeless> topic: File API
# [22:06] <schuki> scribenick: schuki
# [22:07] <timeless> scribe: schuki
# [22:07] <arunranga> Zakim, unmute me
# [22:07] <Zakim> arunranga should no longer be muted
# [22:07] <schuki> sicking:
# [22:07] <timeless> s/sicking://
# [22:07] <schuki> arunranga: file api can go to LC
# [22:07] * Joins: glenn_ (~gadams@public.cloak)
# [22:07] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [22:07] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [22:07] <schuki> ... whenever the publishing ??? is lifted
# [22:08] <schuki> ... we also want to talk about file system api
# [22:08] <MikeSmith> s/???/moratorium
# [22:08] <schuki> ArtB: i am displaying the bugs for file api
# [22:08] <schuki> ... we can go to LC with thia
# [22:08] <schuki> s/thia/this
# [22:08] <timeless> s/... we've tried to harmonise/Travis: we've tried to harmonise/
# [22:08] <schuki> ArtB: does anyone have issues with this?
# [22:09] <ArtB> -> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?component=File%20API&list_id=46243&product=WebAppsWG&;resolution=--- File API Bugs
# [22:09] * timeless "file list"
# [22:09] <schuki> sicking: if we mark style lists and remove later
# [22:09] <timeless> s/style lists/file lists/
# [22:09] <Zakim> - +44.207.346.aaee
# [22:09] <timeless> s/and (as at risk) and/
# [22:09] <timeless> s|s/and (as at risk) and/||
# [22:09] <timeless> s/and/ (as at risk) and/
# [22:09] * Quits: kurosawa (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [22:09] <schuki> sicking: it's a matter of doing a pull request on the spec
# [22:09] <schuki> ... so we should just mark it at risk
# [22:09] <schuki> ... and then do the rest
# [22:09] <plh> q+
# [22:09] * Zakim sees sicking, plh on the speaker queue
# [22:10] * Joins: kbx (~kbx@public.cloak)
# [22:10] <plh> ack sick
# [22:10] * Zakim sees plh on the speaker queue
# [22:10] <ArtB> ACTION: Arun mark file list as Feature @ Risk
# [22:10] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [22:10] * RRSAgent records action 19
# [22:10] <trackbot> Created ACTION-748 - Mark file list as feature @ risk [on Arun Ranganathan - due 2014-11-03].
# [22:10] * timeless paulc
# [22:10] <schuki> paulc:
# [22:10] <Zakim> -johnmellor-chrome
# [22:10] <timeless> s/paulc://
# [22:11] * myakura looks like it's already at LC http://www.w3.org/TR/FileAPI/
# [22:11] * Joins: Hyunjin_ (~Hyunjin@public.cloak)
# [22:11] <weinig> +q
# [22:11] * Zakim sees plh, weinig on the speaker queue
# [22:11] * Quits: Hyunjin (~Hyunjin@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [22:11] <timeless> s/+q/q+/
# [22:11] <ArtB> ACTION: barstow start a CfC to publish File API LCWD
# [22:11] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [22:11] * RRSAgent records action 20
# [22:11] <trackbot> Created ACTION-749 - Start a cfc to publish file api lcwd [on Arthur Barstow - due 2014-11-03].
# [22:11] * Joins: gludi|3 (~kvirc@public.cloak)
# [22:11] <schuki> sicking: it has been at LC, may be brought back before then
# [22:11] <MikeSmith> q?
# [22:11] * Zakim sees plh, weinig on the speaker queue
# [22:11] <schuki> q?
# [22:11] * Zakim sees plh, weinig on the speaker queue
# [22:11] <anssik> http://www.w3.org/standards/history/fileapi
# [22:12] <schuki> ack plh
# [22:12] * Zakim sees weinig on the speaker queue
# [22:12] <schuki> plh: which webapp will be break if we remove file list
# [22:12] * Quits: glenn (~gadams@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [22:12] <schuki> sicking: hopefully none
# [22:12] <schuki> ack weinig
# [22:12] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [22:12] <schuki> weinig: file writing was removed at some point?
# [22:12] * Joins: Zefa (~Zefa@public.cloak)
# [22:12] <schuki> sicking: no was always in file system
# [22:12] <schuki> weinig: so file saving is in file system?
# [22:12] <schuki> sicking: yup
# [22:13] * timeless arunranga
# [22:13] <schuki> arunranga: you can trigger a file save path
# [22:13] <schuki> ... this was probably the specs put forward by google
# [22:13] <schuki> ... file system then diverged
# [22:13] <schuki> ... this google spec has become a note
# [22:13] <timeless> s/agenda requests/Topic: agenda requests/
# [22:13] <schuki> chaals: so yes, this is what file system does
# [22:14] <schuki> chaals: q about file api
# [22:14] <schuki> q?
# [22:14] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [22:14] <schuki> arunranga: requirement is file save as
# [22:14] <ArtB> -> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/FileAPI/#requirements File API UCs and Requirements
# [22:15] <schuki> chaals: says no, as file save as can't be met
# [22:15] <timeless> s/Clipboard events/Topic: Pub-Status: Clipboard events/
# [22:15] <schuki> sicking: at best this statement is ambigous
# [22:15] <timeless> s/DOM Level 3 Event/Topic: Pub-Status: DOM Level 3 Event/
# [22:15] <schuki> chaals: so you're not meeting the requirement?
# [22:15] <schuki> sicking: that's right
# [22:15] <schuki> topic: file system
# [22:15] <ArtB> ACTION: Arun deleted the UC in File API that starts with "Data should be able to be stored ..."
# [22:16] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [22:16] * RRSAgent records action 21
# [22:16] <trackbot> Created ACTION-750 - Deleted the uc in file api that starts with "data should be able to be stored ..." [on Arun Ranganathan - due 2014-11-03].
# [22:16] <timeless> s|https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/d4e/raw-file/tip/source_respec.htm -> UI Events ED|-> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/d4e/raw-file/tip/source_respec.htm UI Events ED|
# [22:16] * Joins: MichaelC (cooper@public.cloak)
# [22:16] * Joins: stone (~stone@public.cloak)
# [22:16] * Quits: johnmellor-chrome (~johnmellor-chrome@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [22:16] <schuki> arunranga: so, the room agrees requirement should be removed?
# [22:16] <schuki> chaals: yes
# [22:16] <schuki> topic: file system
# [22:16] <timeless> s/UI Events/Topic: Pub-Status: UI Events/
# [22:16] <arunranga> http://w3c.github.io/filesystem-api/Overview.html
# [22:16] * Joins: kurosawa (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
# [22:16] * Parts: rubys (~Adium@public.cloak) (rubys)
# [22:16] <schuki> arunranga: file system api link ^
# [22:16] <schuki> ... editors draft
# [22:17] <schuki> arunranga: this file system api build on model put forth by google but uses promises not callbacks
# [22:17] <timeless> s/anything about the key specs/Topic: Pub-Status: DOM3 key specs/
# [22:17] * schuki :D
# [22:17] <schuki> ... there are some things we want to preserve, url
# [22:17] <schuki> ... this spec also relies on platform primatives: event stream e.g.
# [22:17] <timeless> s|https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/tree/master/html/syntax -> DOM P&S tests|-> https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/tree/master/html/syntax DOM P&S tests|
# [22:18] <schuki> ... we will follow some ideas in posix, we have some ability to write also
# [22:18] <timeless> s|https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/labels/dom-parsing -> DOM P&S test open issues|-> https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/labels/dom-parsing DOM P&S test open issues|
# [22:18] * Quits: kurosawa (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [22:19] <timeless> s/Travis: DOM-PS/Topic: Pub-Status: DOM-PS/
# [22:19] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft mintues
# [22:19] <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'draft mintues', timeless. Try /msg RRSAgent help
# [22:19] <schuki> ... there is the file handle and writable file handle
# [22:19] <schuki> ... we want feedback from implementers
# [22:19] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [22:19] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [22:20] <timeless> i/are you going to do anything with innerText/Topic: innerText/
# [22:20] * ArtB plh, yves - can you confirm if we can (or not) get coffee from 14:30-15:00 ?
# [22:20] * Yves let me check
# [22:21] <timeless> i/chaals: Moving on to FileAPI/Topic: Pub-Status: FileAPI/
# [22:21] <timeless> scribe: timeless
# [22:21] <timeless> israelh: ... say i keep something open
# [22:21] <timeless> ... allow my writes to prevail
# [22:21] <timeless> ... it doesn't seem to be as analogous as indexeddb
# [22:21] <timeless> ... because you can't necessarily add transactions
# [22:21] <schuki> sicking: would be good to here microsft comments
# [22:21] <schuki> israelh: we are thinking of the model of keeping something open
# [22:22] <schuki> sicking: typically there's never multiple users touching a file
# [22:22] <schuki> ... because they're sandboxed
# [22:22] <timeless> i/sicking: would/scribe: schuki/
# [22:22] <schuki> ... storage policy for filesystem is no difference between indexeddb and sql
# [22:22] <chaals> q+
# [22:22] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
# [22:22] <timeless> i/.. FullScreen/Topic: Pub-Status: FullScreen/
# [22:22] <schuki> sicking: you could implement file system api on top of indexeddb with some issues, and no file system url working
# [22:23] <timeless> i/chaals: Gamepad./Topic: Pub-Status: Gamepad/
# [22:23] <schuki> ... then it;s a differen api
# [22:23] <timeless> s/it;s/it's/
# [22:23] <timeless> s/differen/different/
# [22:23] * Joins: jmhyeon_ (~jmhyeon@public.cloak)
# [22:23] <schuki> ... actual storage policy is same as indexeddb
# [22:23] * Quits: jmhyeon_ (~jmhyeon@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [22:23] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [22:23] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [22:23] <schuki> israelh: i thought there was a notion that you could break out of sandox
# [22:24] <schuki> arunranga: i can see how that could have come from discussion of use case
# [22:24] <schuki> ... this use case is a "nice to have"
# [22:24] * plh Art, 3pm to 4pm for coffee breaks
# [22:24] * Joins: jmhyeon_ (~jmhyeon@public.cloak)
# [22:24] <schuki> ... we want to focus on sandbox major
# [22:24] * plh (written on the printed program)
# [22:24] <timeless> i/sicking: I'm not sure what's blocking/Topic: Pub-Status: IndexedDB/
# [22:24] <schuki> ... if this use case is misleading we will abandon
# [22:25] <schuki> arunranga: bigger use case of breaking out does not seem credible
# [22:25] <schuki> sicking: i agree
# [22:25] <schuki> ack chaals
# [22:25] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [22:25] <schuki> q+ chaals
# [22:25] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
# [22:25] <timeless> s|http://www.w3c-test.org/IndexedDB/interfaces.html -> IDB interfaces Web IDL|-> http://www.w3c-test.org/IndexedDB/interfaces.html IDB interfaces Web IDL|
# [22:25] <schuki> israelh: why not enbale with log file? People are used to this
# [22:25] <timeless> i/IDB interfaces Web IDL/Topic: IndexedDB + Web IDL/
# [22:26] * Quits: Hyunjin_ (~Hyunjin@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [22:26] <schuki> sicking: you could easily create dead locks
# [22:26] <schuki> s/logs/locks
# [22:26] * Joins: kurosawa (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
# [22:26] <timeless> s/chaals: IME/Topic: Pub-Status: IME/
# [22:26] <schuki> sicking: the problem is if you open pages, one that opens file a, then file b, then does stuff with either
# [22:27] <schuki> ... then you have another sub component that opens file b
# [22:27] <schuki> ... then dead lock - this isn't good
# [22:27] <schuki> israelh: so if you surface dead locks to the applications, then you can manage them
# [22:27] <timeless> s/chaals: OK. Moving to PointerLock/Topic: Pub-Status: PointerLock/
# [22:27] <schuki> ... we could provide mechanisms to handle them
# [22:27] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [22:27] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [22:27] <schuki> ... more intuitively than indexeddb
# [22:27] <schuki> sicking: it could cause race conditions then
# [22:27] <timeless> [ laughter ]
# [22:28] <timeless> s/timeless/scribe/
# [22:28] <schuki> israelh: so then the complexity of programming increases
# [22:28] <schuki> sicking: complexity is a complicated thing
# [22:28] <schuki> ... you do need to open the file open, but then no need to deal with dead locks
# [22:29] <schuki> ... is it simpler to have things like they are now, or open the files in order always?
# [22:29] <schuki> ... seems like no good solutions
# [22:29] <schuki> sicking: still interested in microsoft implementation status
# [22:29] <schuki> israelh: we're looking at it
# [22:29] <schuki> ack chaals
# [22:29] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [22:29] <arunranga> israelh, great :)
# [22:29] <schuki> chaals: arunranga you said use case of having files is not credible
# [22:30] <schuki> ... want to build on sandoxed system of indexeddb
# [22:30] <schuki> ... is this a solution looking for a problem?
# [22:30] <ArtB> ACTION: Yves followup with Cameron re PR 27 and the Web IDL test suite
# [22:30] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [22:30] * RRSAgent records action 22
# [22:30] <trackbot> Created ACTION-751 - Followup with cameron re pr 27 and the web idl test suite [on Yves Lafon - due 2014-11-03].
# [22:31] <schuki> chaals: what are the barriers (if can build security system that could work) to using the file system api to handle access from multiple apps to same file?
# [22:31] <sicking> q+
# [22:31] * Zakim sees sicking on the speaker queue
# [22:31] <schuki> ... has something been built that cannot handle multiple access?
# [22:31] <schuki> ack sicking
# [22:31] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [22:31] <timeless> i/chaals: Quota Management?/Topic: Pub-Status: Quota Management/
# [22:31] * Quits: mvano (~textual@public.cloak) ("Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com")
# [22:31] <schuki> sicking: there is nothing inherent with files which makes them more interesting to share than with things such as indexeddb
# [22:32] <schuki> ... firefoxos is doing something, but for security reasons this wouldn't work for web
# [22:32] <timeless> i/... Server-Sent Events/Topic: Pub-Status: Server-Sent Events/
# [22:32] <schuki> chaals: there are use cases when apps would want to work on the same files
# [22:33] <schuki> weinig: from apple perspective: osx is file coordination system, you're only allowed to do something in a block
# [22:33] <schuki> ... you can use filehandle to do stuff
# [22:33] <timeless> s/... WebIDL/Topic: Pub-Status: WebIDL/
# [22:33] <schuki> ... user has to give access to all files on ios
# [22:34] <schuki> sicking: we have multiple solutions for firefoxos, in every case user must make decisions
# [22:34] <timeless> s/... Web Components?/Topic: Pub-Status: Web Components/
# [22:34] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [22:34] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [22:34] <schuki> chaals: question remains: is there something in file system that could break multi user problem?
# [22:34] <schuki> sicking: no, we just need to solve the security problems
# [22:35] <timeless> s|http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2014OctDec/0248.html -> Custom Elements status from Dimitri 2014-Oct-24|-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2014OctDec/0248.html Custom Elements status from Dimitri 2014-Oct-24|
# [22:35] <schuki> weinig: same q as before: how does using this api trigger an explicity save somewhere else?
# [22:35] <schuki> sicking: open write
# [22:35] <timeless> s|http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2014OctDec/0249.html -> HTML Imports status report frm Hajime on 2014-Oct-24|-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2014OctDec/0249.html HTML Imports status report frm Hajime on 2014-Oct-24|
# [22:35] <schuki> sicking: there's nothing to trigger save dialogue
# [22:36] <schuki> weinig: this seems to be a major pain point
# [22:36] <timeless> s|http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2014OctDec/0222.html -> Shadow DOM status report from Hayato on 2014-Oct-23|-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2014OctDec/0222.html Shadow DOM status report from Hayato on 2014-Oct-23|
# [22:36] <arunranga> q+
# [22:36] * Zakim sees arunranga on the speaker queue
# [22:37] <schuki> sicking: file saver api could be used, with progress saver events
# [22:37] <adrianba> q+
# [22:37] * Zakim sees arunranga, adrianba on the speaker queue
# [22:37] <timeless> q+ to ask if anyone has actually *used* that approach (href=blob:, download=) ? or + sending a click to that
# [22:37] * Zakim sees arunranga, adrianba, timeless on the speaker queue
# [22:37] <schuki> ack arunranga
# [22:37] * Zakim sees adrianba, timeless on the speaker queue
# [22:37] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [22:37] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [22:37] <schuki> arunranga: you can request the save as and trigger the dialogue
# [22:38] <schuki> ... this file system api allows write to sandox file system
# [22:38] <schuki> ... is there a req to do something more to prompt user interaction?
# [22:38] <schuki> schuki: earlier sicking mentioned could use download attr on anchor tag
# [22:38] * schuki missed
# [22:38] * schuki added now
# [22:38] <schuki> weinig: no, was just confused!
# [22:39] * Quits: Norbert (~Norbert@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [22:39] <timeless> s|http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2014OctDec/0213.html -> Tantek's proposal re Fullscreen API|-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2014OctDec/0213.html Tantek's proposal re Fullscreen API|
# [22:39] <schuki> q?
# [22:39] * Zakim sees adrianba, timeless on the speaker queue
# [22:39] <ArtB> zakim, who's here?
# [22:39] <Zakim> On the phone I see Portland, lgombos, Olli_Pettay, anssik, arunranga
# [22:39] <Zakim> Portland has timeless
# [22:39] <Zakim> On IRC I see kurosawa, jmhyeon_, stone, MichaelC, Zefa, gludi|3, kbx, glenn_, fjh, forty41, hiroto__, alia, jrossi, shepazu, tomoyuki, jcraig, bkardell_, wooglae, Jun_MA, darobin,
# [22:39] <Zakim> ... JonathanJ1, chaa13, youngwoojo, tantek, song, chaals, miterho, mt_, plh, kenneth_, sicking, zcorpan, adrianba, a1zu, waynecarr, kusakak, hjlee, Claes, marcosc, spoussa,
# [22:39] <Zakim> ... myakura, rniwa, ArtB, israelh, notbenjamin, alan-i, weinig, benjamp, hiroki, arunranga, hallvors, plinss, anssik, bryan_, smaug, jungkees, RRSAgent, Zakim, lgombos, marcosc_,
# [22:39] <Zakim> ... kochi1
# [22:39] <schuki> arunranga: we would like feedback from apple
# [22:39] <schuki> ack adrianba
# [22:39] * Zakim sees timeless on the speaker queue
# [22:40] <schuki> adrianba: [1] save case is independant from file system api
# [22:40] <schuki> ... we want something more than anchor tag
# [22:41] <timeless> s/independant/independent/
# [22:41] <schuki> ... we made proposal previously
# [22:41] <timeless> s/[1]/1)/
# [22:41] * chaals notes that we will expect to start our joint meeting with the people we invited before 15:10. So even if there is no coffee as soon as you get into the break, we will be having a break, with a short overlap with the time when coffee is promised.
# [22:41] * Joins: Hyunjin (~Hyunjin@public.cloak)
# [22:41] <schuki> ... proposal was you may have a offline app, an online app, so want to simulate a local application simulation dialogue
# [22:41] * chaals notes that coffee *might* be there a few minutes before the appointed hour...
# [22:41] <schuki> ... therefore a number os use cases exist for saving scenario
# [22:41] <schuki> ... need to revisit
# [22:41] <timeless> ack me
# [22:41] <Zakim> timeless, you wanted to ask if anyone has actually *used* that approach (href=blob:, download=) ? or + sending a click to that
# [22:41] <schuki> ack timeless
# [22:41] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [22:41] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [22:41] <schuki> ?
# [22:42] * schuki has cup of tea
# [22:42] <anssik> FWIW, here's my demo <a download> w/ .click(): http://anssiko.github.io/html-media-capture/capture-and-download.html
# [22:42] <schuki> timeless: do people do the flow of anchor tag with blob and download attr?
# [22:43] <schuki> sicking: i think gmail does it but not sure
# [22:43] * Parts: hallvors (~uid23371@public.cloak)
# [22:43] <schuki> weinig: could non normatively reference in one of the api specs so other people don't get confused
# [22:44] * Joins: LJWatson (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
# [22:44] <arunranga> weinig, I will take an action to do this
# [22:44] * Quits: fjh (~fhirsch3@public.cloak) (fjh)
# [22:44] <weinig> thanks arunranga!
# [22:44] <schuki> darobin: could use a json trick but could create a massive json file to pull down
# [22:44] <timeless> timeless: +1 to weinig's suggestion
# [22:45] <schuki> ArtB: coffee break
# [22:45] <schuki> ... no coffee
# [22:45] <schuki> ... not here till 3
# [22:45] <schuki> ... actually 5 mins away
# [22:45] <schuki> ... let's start straight after 3
# [22:45] * Joins: jeff (jeff@public.cloak)
# [22:45] <schuki> [break: return at just after 3pm]
# [22:46] * arunranga hears chaals guffaw loudly
# [22:46] * schuki meany points slightlyoff=1
# [22:46] <schuki> sicking: arunranga is working on some edits to file system
# [22:46] <arunranga> q+ to say I will work towards FPWD
# [22:46] * Zakim sees arunranga on the speaker queue
# [22:46] <schuki> sicking: apart from that, given microsoft is maybe interested then we should move forward
# [22:46] <schuki> ArtB: arunranga do some edits, let me know, and we'll go for workiong draft
# [22:47] <timeless> ACTION arun to do edits on file system spec
# [22:47] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [22:47] <trackbot> Created ACTION-752 - Do edits on file system spec [on Arun Ranganathan - due 2014-11-03].
# [22:47] <schuki> arunranga: we can take some discussions to mailing list
# [22:47] <timeless> s/workiong/working/
# [22:47] <schuki> jungkees: service worker cfc ok?
# [22:47] <schuki> ArtB: yes go ahead
# [22:48] <timeless> s|https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/streams-api/raw-file/tip/Overview.htm">https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/streams-api/raw-file/tip/Overview.htm -> Streams API W3C Editor's Draft |XXXscribeERROR|
# [22:48] * Quits: rniwa (~rniwa@public.cloak) (rniwa)
# [22:48] <arunranga> Zakim, mute me
# [22:48] <Zakim> arunranga should now be muted
# [22:48] <sicking> arunranga, might be worth adding that to the File API. We could even replace the current "save to disk" use case with a informative note that says that the spec supports it in collaboration with the HTML download attribute
# [22:48] <schuki> [break: return at just after 3pm]
# [22:48] <timeless> s|-> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/streams-api/raw-file/tip/Overview.htm Streams API W3C Editor's Draft|ZZZ|
# [22:48] * Quits: notbenjamin (~textual@public.cloak) ("My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…")
# [22:48] * Quits: wooglae (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [22:48] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [22:48] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [22:48] <arunranga> sicking, yep, promised weinig I would do it
# [22:48] <Zakim> -anssik
# [22:48] * Quits: Hyunjin (~Hyunjin@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [22:48] * Quits: forty41 (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [22:51] * Joins: notbenjamin (~textual@public.cloak)
# [22:51] <Zakim> -arunranga
# [22:51] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@public.cloak) (weinig)
# [22:51] * Quits: stone (~stone@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [22:51] * Joins: fjh (~fhirsch3@public.cloak)
# [22:52] * Quits: tomoyuki (~tomoyuki@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [22:52] * Quits: a1zu (~androirc@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [22:52] * Joins: Ryladog_ (~Ryladog@public.cloak)
# [22:52] * Quits: alan-i (~alan-i@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [22:52] * Quits: Jun_MA (~Jun_MA@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [22:53] * Quits: kbx (~kbx@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [22:53] * Quits: Claes (~Claes@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [22:53] * Quits: notbenjamin (~textual@public.cloak) ("My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…")
# [22:54] * Quits: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak) (jcraig)
# [22:55] * Quits: waynecarr (~waynecarr@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [22:55] * Joins: AndroUser (~androirc@public.cloak)
# [22:55] * Quits: alia (~alia@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [22:55] * Quits: marcosc (~marcosc@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [22:56] * Joins: marcosc (~marcosc@public.cloak)
# [22:56] * Quits: mt_ (~mt@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [22:56] * Quits: jrossi (~jrossi@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [22:58] * Quits: youngwoojo (~youngwoojo@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [22:59] * Quits: kusakak (~kusakak@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [22:59] * Quits: spoussa (~spoussa@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [22:59] * Quits: Ryladog_ (~Ryladog@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [22:59] * Quits: LJWatson (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [23:00] * Quits: MichaelC (cooper@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [23:01] * Joins: Tomoyuki (~Tomoyuki@public.cloak)
# [23:01] * Quits: kurosawa (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [23:02] <Zakim> -Olli_Pettay
# [23:03] * Quits: marcosc (~marcosc@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [23:04] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@public.cloak) (sicking)
# [23:04] * Joins: kurosawa (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
# [23:05] * Joins: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak)
# [23:06] * Joins: alan-i (~alan-i@public.cloak)
# [23:07] * Joins: kn1 (~k.n@public.cloak)
# [23:08] * Joins: MichaelC (cooper@public.cloak)
# [23:09] * Joins: jcraig_ (~jcraig@public.cloak)
# [23:11] * Joins: rniwa (~rniwa@public.cloak)
# [23:11] * Parts: kn1 (~k.n@public.cloak) (Leaving)
# [23:12] <benjamp> Agenda for Selection, Editing, Intentions: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-editing-tf/2014Oct/0021.html
# [23:12] <benjamp> Explainer for Intentions: http://w3c.github.io/editing-explainer/commands-explainer.html
# [23:12] * rniwa is here
# [23:12] <benjamp> Explainer for Editing: http://w3c.github.io/editing-explainer
# [23:12] * Quits: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [23:12] * jcraig_ is now known as jcraig
# [23:13] * Quits: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak) (jcraig)
# [23:13] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (tantek)
# [23:14] <schuki> topic: selection, editing and user interactions
# [23:14] <schuki> benjamp: i have added links to irc ^
# [23:14] <timeless> i/Agenda/topic: selection, editing and user interactions/
# [23:14] * Joins: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak)
# [23:14] <timeless> s/topic: selection, editing and user interactions//
# [23:14] * Joins: vollick_ (~vollick@public.cloak)
# [23:14] * timeless just moved the topic before the urls
# [23:14] <schuki> ... overview: started with editing (exitensible web summit in jan)
# [23:14] * Joins: kbx (~kbx@public.cloak)
# [23:14] * Joins: jhund (~jhund@public.cloak)
# [23:15] <schuki> ... started to think about how to spec it
# [23:15] <timeless> s|Explainer for Editing: http://w3c.github.io/editing-explainer|-> http://w3c.github.io/editing-explainer Explainer for Editing|
# [23:15] * Joins: jrossi (~jrossi@public.cloak)
# [23:15] * Joins: joanie (~joanmarie@public.cloak)
# [23:15] * Joins: rbyers (~sid31141@public.cloak)
# [23:15] <schuki> ... since then had meetings on editing, and user intentions
# [23:15] <timeless> s|Agenda for Selection, Editing, Intentions: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-editing-tf/2014Oct/0021.html|-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-editing-tf/2014Oct/0021.html Agenda for Selection, Editing, Intentions|
# [23:15] <schuki> [diagram in spec]
# [23:15] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@public.cloak)
# [23:15] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [23:15] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [23:15] * Joins: cyns (~cyns@public.cloak)
# [23:15] * Joins: Norbert (~Norbert@public.cloak)
# [23:15] <schuki> benjamp: diagram shows inputs, and what the user wants to accomplish
# [23:15] * Joins: MarkS (~msadecki@public.cloak)
# [23:16] <schuki> benjamp: today the situation is not well connected between the two
# [23:16] <ArtB> -> http://w3c.github.io/editing-explainer/ W3C Editing Explainer
# [23:16] * Joins: Ryladog (~Ryladog@public.cloak)
# [23:16] * Joins: kn1 (~k.n@public.cloak)
# [23:16] <schuki> ... trying to solve both at the same time
# [23:17] <ArtB> -> http://w3c.github.io/editing-explainer/commands-explainer.html User Intentions Explainer
# [23:17] <schuki> benjamp: we are brining people together to talk about this
# [23:17] * Joins: a12u (~androirc@public.cloak)
# [23:17] <schuki> benjamp: explainer doc (link above) talks about how we can make a single shape for all these intentions
# [23:17] * Quits: chaa13 (~chaa13@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [23:17] * Quits: arunranga (~arunranga@public.cloak) (arunranga)
# [23:18] <ArtB> -> http://w3c.github.io/selection-api/ Selection API
# [23:18] <schuki> benjamp: interested groups / apis: html, webapps, indie-ui, selection api, clipboard api, scroll,
# [23:18] <schuki> ... also interested in how this works with web components
# [23:19] <ArtB> Present+ Michael_Cooper, Rick_Byers
# [23:19] <schuki> ... to look at behaviours rather than just clip events
# [23:19] <schuki> s/clip/click
# [23:19] * schuki lol
# [23:19] * Joins: LJWatson_ (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
# [23:19] * ArtB asks MichaelCooper to please Present+ all of the IndieUI members that are present
# [23:19] <schuki> benjamp: also want to discuss how we can work on this with ARIA so you can update properties on the fly
# [23:19] <cyns> https://rawgit.com/cyns/wapa/master/wapa.html
# [23:19] * Quits: jmhyeon_ (~jmhyeon@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [23:19] <schuki> q?
# [23:19] * Zakim sees arunranga on the speaker queue
# [23:19] <cyns> Web Accessibility Properties and Actions (WAPA) Explainer
# [23:20] * Joins: arunranga (~arunranga@public.cloak)
# [23:20] * Joins: smfr (~smfr@public.cloak)
# [23:20] <timeless> q?
# [23:20] * Zakim sees arunranga on the speaker queue
# [23:20] <schuki> ack arunranga
# [23:20] <Zakim> arunranga, you wanted to say I will work towards FPWD
# [23:20] <timeless> q- arunranga
# [23:20] <schuki> q?
# [23:20] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [23:20] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [23:20] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [23:20] <timeless> s/arunranga, you wanted to say I will work towards FPWD//
# [23:20] * timeless you don't want to use `ack` if the content wouldn't be relevant
# [23:20] * timeless you should favor `q- {person}` instead
# [23:20] <schuki> benjamp: task force is working on editing and user intentions
# [23:20] <darobin> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-editing-tf/
# [23:21] <schuki> benjamp: [referring to spec]
# [23:21] <ArtB> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-editing-tf/ Editing TF list
# [23:21] <schuki> benjamp: you can refer an action based on intention
# [23:21] * Joins: richardschwerdtfeger (~RichS@public.cloak)
# [23:21] <schuki> benjamp: we want to have a unified shape, and we need to work this out
# [23:21] <schuki> ... clipboard is one implementation
# [23:22] <schuki> ... indie-ui is another
# [23:22] <ArtB> Present+ Janina_Sajka, Richard_Schwerdtfeger
# [23:22] <schuki> ... dom lvl3 is working on implementing this
# [23:22] <schuki> benjamp: based on everyone's use acses, we could come up with small number of events
# [23:22] * Quits: gludi|3 (~kvirc@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [23:22] <jcraig> q+
# [23:22] * Zakim sees jcraig on the speaker queue
# [23:23] <schuki> ... e.g. input, scrolling
# [23:23] <Norbert> q+
# [23:23] * Zakim sees jcraig, Norbert on the speaker queue
# [23:23] <ArtB> Present+ James_Craig, Katie_Haritos-Shea
# [23:23] * LJWatson_ is now known as LJWatson
# [23:23] <schuki> ... can we create 4/5 individual events to represent?
# [23:23] <schuki> ack jcraig
# [23:23] * Zakim sees Norbert on the speaker queue
# [23:23] <schuki> jcraig: i see distinction between discreet and continuous events
# [23:23] <schuki> ... most so far have been discreet
# [23:23] * schuki discreet / descreet?
# [23:23] * schuki i cannot spell
# [23:23] * Joins: spoussa (~spoussa@public.cloak)
# [23:24] <richardschwerdtfeger> s/discreet/discrete/
# [23:24] <schuki> benjamp: rick, how about for scrolling?
# [23:24] * schuki lol
# [23:24] <schuki> richt: we were worried about a lot of events
# [23:24] <schuki> ... does pressing down want to make many different events
# [23:24] <schuki> s/events/events?
# [23:24] <schuki> ... the harder problem is how these things are composed
# [23:25] <schuki> ... are dom events the right thing for this?
# [23:25] * Joins: youngwoojo (~youngwoojo@public.cloak)
# [23:25] <schuki> richt: scroll is a different case, a node may have a custom logic, then i need to work with custom logic and browser logic
# [23:26] <schuki> richt: we don't have a solution now, but this is a big question
# [23:26] <rniwa> +q
# [23:26] * Zakim sees Norbert, rniwa on the speaker queue
# [23:26] <schuki> richt: e.g. input. If i hit letter 'a', custom node, how does the flow with custom script and browser handle work?
# [23:26] <schuki> benjamp: would this be like other events?
# [23:26] <schuki> jcraig: yes
# [23:27] <schuki> ... we talked about instead of having custom event types you could have custom control
# [23:27] <schuki> ... e.g. this div represents stepper
# [23:27] <schuki> ... it has increment and decrement
# [23:28] <timeless> s/+q/q+/
# [23:28] <schuki> Norbert: it's getting complicated! More things: input methods (intercept keyboard events)
# [23:28] <schuki> ... minimising api would mean application needs api to talk to input method
# [23:28] <timeless> s/input methods/input methods [IMEs]/
# [23:28] <jcraig> s/it has increment and decrement/so it has a settable value, as well as increment and decrement methods/
# [23:28] <schuki> ... spelling checkers are another issue
# [23:28] <schuki> ... modifying text behind your back
# [23:28] <schuki> ... can cause issues
# [23:29] <schuki> benjamp: editing & intentions can be seen as different
# [23:29] <schuki> ... editing there could be some way that IMEs could be lost
# [23:29] <timeless> q+ to say that IMEs and spellcheckers should be considered as the same
# [23:29] * Zakim sees Norbert, rniwa, timeless on the speaker queue
# [23:29] <schuki> ... we need to think about this, file a bug on github
# [23:29] <schuki> ack Norbert
# [23:29] * Zakim sees rniwa, timeless on the speaker queue
# [23:29] <chaals> q- later
# [23:29] * Zakim sees rniwa, timeless, chaals on the speaker queue
# [23:29] * Joins: forty4 (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [23:29] <chaals> q-
# [23:29] * Zakim sees rniwa, timeless on the speaker queue
# [23:30] * Joins: sam (osamu@public.cloak)
# [23:30] * timeless rniwa
# [23:30] * timeless Ryosuke Niwa (~rniwa@public.cloak)
# [23:30] <timeless> ack rniwa
# [23:30] * Zakim sees timeless on the speaker queue
# [23:30] <schuki> rniwa: you have an action before / after, key input is discrete, either before or after
# [23:31] <schuki> ... these events bubble, content editing host could cancel but not everything can do this
# [23:31] <cyns> q+
# [23:31] * Zakim sees timeless, cyns on the speaker queue
# [23:31] <benjamp> q+
# [23:31] * Zakim sees timeless, cyns, benjamp on the speaker queue
# [23:31] <schuki> rniwa: could also discuss input methods
# [23:31] <schuki> ... behaviour input methods interesting: random text is corrected by spelling mistake, which cause issues
# [23:32] <schuki> ... e.g. mac auto correction bubble
# [23:32] * Yves rrsagent, draft minutes
# [23:32] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html Yves
# [23:32] * Joins: ted (ted@public.cloak)
# [23:32] * Yves zakim, who is here?
# [23:32] * Zakim sees on the phone: Portland, lgombos
# [23:32] * Zakim Portland has timeless
# [23:32] * Zakim sees on irc: ted, sam, forty4, youngwoojo, spoussa, richardschwerdtfeger, smfr, arunranga, LJWatson, a12u, kn1, Ryladog, MarkS, Norbert, cyns, weinig, rbyers, joanie, jrossi,
# [23:32] * Zakim ... jhund, kbx, vollick_, jcraig, rniwa, MichaelC, alan-i, kurosawa, Tomoyuki, AndroUser, fjh, jeff, Zefa, glenn_, hiroto__, shepazu, bkardell_, darobin, JonathanJ1, song, chaals,
# [23:32] * ted RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [23:32] * Zakim ... miterho, plh, kenneth_, zcorpan, adrianba, hjlee, myakura, ArtB, israelh, benjamp, hiroki, plinss, anssik, bryan_, smaug, jungkees, RRSAgent, Zakim, lgombos, marcosc_, kochi1,
# [23:32] * Zakim ... kochi
# [23:32] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html ted
# [23:32] * Yves rrsagent, draft minutes
# [23:32] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html Yves
# [23:32] <schuki> rniwa: so, intents might not identify everything, may need to think about context
# [23:32] <schuki> q?
# [23:32] * Zakim sees timeless, cyns, benjamp on the speaker queue
# [23:32] <schuki> ack timeless
# [23:32] <Zakim> timeless, you wanted to say that IMEs and spellcheckers should be considered as the same
# [23:32] * Zakim sees cyns, benjamp on the speaker queue
# [23:33] * Parts: ted (ted@public.cloak) (cya)
# [23:33] <schuki> timeless: spellchecker could be considered the same
# [23:33] <schuki> ... some devices don't have a keyboard
# [23:33] * Joins: wooglae (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [23:33] <schuki> ... mobile device e.g.
# [23:33] <schuki> ... web should not treat these differently
# [23:34] <schuki> timeless: latin lands are used to spell checkers
# [23:34] * Joins: mihnea_____ (~sid16310@public.cloak)
# [23:34] * Quits: richardschwerdtfeger (~RichS@public.cloak) (richardschwerdtfeger)
# [23:34] * Quits: spoussa (~spoussa@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [23:34] <schuki> ack cyns
# [23:34] * Zakim sees benjamp on the speaker queue
# [23:35] <timeless> s/spell checkers/spell checkers - cjk to IME, -- and not to the other one -- by merging the concepts, you ensure that anyone who codes to handle one case doesn't break when they encounter the other/
# [23:36] <schuki> cyns: idea is to solve use cases [1] scenario around another state by downloading another bunch of ARIA [2] word document, these can be long, dom has subset, content could have list elements, numbers etc, doc isnt good representation of a document
# [23:36] <schuki> ... idea is to allow assitive technology to trigger events
# [23:36] <schuki> ... there may also be more actions that it could do
# [23:36] <schuki> s/it/api
# [23:37] <schuki> cyns: this could work for testing of custom elements and web driver accessiblity
# [23:37] <schuki> ack benjamp
# [23:37] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [23:37] <cyns> https://rawgit.com/cyns/wapa/master/wapa.html
# [23:37] <rniwa> +q
# [23:37] * Zakim sees rniwa on the speaker queue
# [23:37] <schuki> benjamp: there are many scenarios that need to be solved
# [23:37] <jcraig> q+ to mention dictation UI is similar to IME UI
# [23:37] * Zakim sees rniwa, jcraig on the speaker queue
# [23:37] <chaals> q+ richSchwer
# [23:37] * Zakim sees rniwa, jcraig, richSchwer on the speaker queue
# [23:37] <jcraig> q+ to mention API for custom RTE may be the right approach for editing.
# [23:37] * Zakim sees rniwa, jcraig, richSchwer on the speaker queue
# [23:37] <schuki> benjamp: needs intention shape for intention events
# [23:38] <schuki> ... then take this and see if it works for use cases
# [23:38] <timeless> s/+q/q+
# [23:38] * Quits: jeff (jeff@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [23:38] * timeless rniwa : please favor q+ -- (+q works for the queue, but ends up in the logs)
# [23:38] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [23:38] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [23:38] * rniwa timeless will do.
# [23:38] <schuki> ... we need data
# [23:38] <schuki> ... input text could be one, and data would be text
# [23:39] <schuki> benjamp: good idea?
# [23:39] <chaals> q+ to ask about shapes
# [23:39] * Zakim sees rniwa, jcraig, richSchwer, chaals on the speaker queue
# [23:39] <jcraig> q+ to mention intentional events reconciliation with related physical events
# [23:39] * Zakim sees rniwa, jcraig, richSchwer, chaals on the speaker queue
# [23:39] <timeless> i/This sums up the review of pubstatus/Topic: Rundown of pubstatus/
# [23:39] <schuki> benjamp: if we had unified shape: intention, type, data
# [23:39] <schuki> comments?
# [23:39] <hober> q?
# [23:39] * Zakim sees rniwa, jcraig, richSchwer, chaals on the speaker queue
# [23:39] <schuki> ack richSchwer
# [23:39] * Zakim sees rniwa, jcraig, chaals on the speaker queue
# [23:40] <schuki> richSchwer: if you're going to scroll, you need range
# [23:40] <schuki> ... you need to tell app something rather than work it out itseld
# [23:40] <schuki> ... each platform has accessibility apis
# [23:40] <schuki> ... we need to get that to be seamless
# [23:40] <timeless> s/itseld/itself/
# [23:41] <cyns> q+ to agree that abstracting the platform apis is a goal
# [23:41] * Zakim sees rniwa, jcraig, chaals, cyns on the speaker queue
# [23:41] <schuki> ... we're getting back to the design pattern
# [23:41] <jcraig> s/has accessibility apis/has differences between each accessibility api/
# [23:41] <schuki> ... about delivering inform to the app
# [23:41] <jcraig> ack rn
# [23:41] * Zakim sees jcraig, chaals, cyns on the speaker queue
# [23:41] <timeless> s/starting Introductin//
# [23:41] <schuki> rniwa: it would be useful for interested parties to come up with use case list
# [23:41] <schuki> ... to add to explainer
# [23:41] <darobin> q+ to have use cases as code as much as possible
# [23:41] * Zakim sees jcraig, chaals, cyns, darobin on the speaker queue
# [23:41] <schuki> ... then proposal can be vetted against these use cases
# [23:42] <timeless> s/present cynthia_shelly//
# [23:42] <jcraig> ack me
# [23:42] <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to mention dictation UI is similar to IME UI and to mention API for custom RTE may be the right approach for editing. and to mention intentional events
# [23:42] <Zakim> ... reconciliation with related physical events
# [23:42] * Zakim sees chaals, cyns, darobin on the speaker queue
# [23:42] * Joins: sam_ (osamu@public.cloak)
# [23:42] * Joins: richardschwerdtfeger (~RichS@public.cloak)
# [23:42] <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
# [23:42] * Zakim sees chaals, cyns, darobin on the speaker queue
# [23:42] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
# [23:42] <timeless> s/definiately/definitely/
# [23:43] <schuki> jcraig: rniwa Norbert were talking about IMEs, an idea could be an api which custom view could implement
# [23:43] * Joins: HZ (~HZ@public.cloak)
# [23:44] <timeless> s/frm Hajime/from Hajime/
# [23:44] <schuki> ... jcraig: reconciliation with physical events, intention will have id, and reconciliation can ???
# [23:44] <timeless> s/committments/commitments/
# [23:44] <myakura> s/richt/rbyers/
# [23:44] * Joins: AndroUser2 (~androirc@public.cloak)
# [23:44] * schuki jcraig: can you fill ??? by any chance?!
# [23:45] * schuki apologies!
# [23:45] <schuki> chaals: generic shape for events: good idea?
# [23:45] <rbyers> q+
# [23:45] * Zakim sees chaals, cyns, darobin, rbyers on the speaker queue
# [23:45] <schuki> [5/6 hands up]
# [23:45] <timeless> q+ hober
# [23:45] * Zakim sees chaals, cyns, darobin, rbyers, hober on the speaker queue
# [23:45] <timeless> q+ weinig
# [23:45] * Zakim sees chaals, cyns, darobin, rbyers, hober, weinig on the speaker queue
# [23:45] <schuki> ack chaals
# [23:45] <Zakim> chaals, you wanted to ask about shapes
# [23:45] * Zakim sees cyns, darobin, rbyers, hober, weinig on the speaker queue
# [23:45] <hober> q-
# [23:45] * Zakim sees cyns, darobin, rbyers, weinig on the speaker queue
# [23:45] <timeless> s/requiements/requirements/
# [23:45] * Quits: AndroUser2 (~androirc@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [23:45] <schuki> chaals: +1 to jcraig, need to figure out how intentional events can interact
# [23:45] <timeless> s/committment/commitment/
# [23:46] <schuki> ... need to figure out where events go when you start to pile them
# [23:46] <timeless> s/diferences/differences/
# [23:46] * Quits: AndroUser (~androirc@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [23:46] <schuki> ... we looked at this before
# [23:46] <timeless> s/unkowns/unknowns/
# [23:46] <schuki> ... a very simple set in 90s
# [23:46] <schuki> ... we had a set of events and they weren't used
# [23:46] * schuki timeless can you take over in 5?
# [23:46] * schuki need to go to geo
# [23:46] * Joins: sam__ (osamu@public.cloak)
# [23:46] <jcraig> s/intention will have id, and reconciliation can ???/first event object could have id, and subsequent events could reference previous events by ID, to reconcile which physical events caused the related intention events/
# [23:46] <timeless> s/oportunities/opportunities/
# [23:47] * timeless yes
# [23:47] * timeless oh shoot, i wanted to go to geo
# [23:47] <schuki> chaals: once you've done touch / pointer / slides etc.
# [23:47] * timeless sure
# [23:47] <schuki> chaals: then remember you forgot mouse!
# [23:47] <schuki> chaals: the data payload for event, i am hearing rich and jcraig say objects need to provide information
# [23:47] <timeless> s/userhas/user has/
# [23:48] <timeless> s/thingdid/thing did/
# [23:48] <chaals> q?
# [23:48] * Zakim sees cyns, darobin, rbyers, weinig on the speaker queue
# [23:48] <schuki> jcraig: yes so if view can take scroll then it should tell you how far you canview (scroll poisition, scroll range)
# [23:48] <timeless> s/primatives/primitives/
# [23:48] <timeless> ack cyns
# [23:48] <Zakim> cyns, you wanted to agree that abstracting the platform apis is a goal
# [23:48] * Zakim sees darobin, rbyers, weinig on the speaker queue
# [23:48] <darobin> ack me
# [23:48] <Zakim> darobin, you wanted to have use cases as code as much as possible
# [23:48] * Zakim sees rbyers, weinig on the speaker queue
# [23:48] <timeless> s/microsft/microsoft/
# [23:49] <timeless> s/sandox/sandbox/
# [23:49] <schuki> darobin: could have shims, reuse code methods
# [23:49] <benjamp> q+
# [23:49] * Zakim sees rbyers, weinig, benjamp on the speaker queue
# [23:49] <timeless> s/enbale/enable/
# [23:49] * Joins: AndroUser (~androirc@public.cloak)
# [23:49] <timeless> s/sandoxed/sandboxed/
# [23:49] <schuki> richt: is i have a componet that manages a list
# [23:49] <timeless> s/explicity/explicitly/
# [23:49] <schuki> ... when you hit space it does certain things
# [23:50] <schuki> ... inside this list people could make widget
# [23:50] <schuki> ... now if someone hit space bar what happens?
# [23:50] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [23:50] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [23:50] <schuki> ... ideally it extensible web view should handle this
# [23:50] <jcraig> q+ to mention potential requested code sample:
# [23:50] * Zakim sees rbyers, weinig, benjamp, jcraig on the speaker queue
# [23:50] <timeless> s/sandox/sandbox/
# [23:51] <schuki> ... if we say devs design for this, then checkbox will never run, and before event will make container, container creates beforedefault etc...
# [23:51] * Quits: sam_ (osamu@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [23:51] <jcraig> q+ to [Example]
# [23:51] <schuki> scribe: timeless
# [23:51] * Zakim sees rbyers, weinig, benjamp, jcraig on the speaker queue
# [23:51] <jcraig> partial interface UIEvent {
# [23:51] <jcraig> readonly attribute EventID id; // UID of current event
# [23:51] <jcraig> readonly attribute EventList relatedEvents; // List of related events, with ID and potentially type of each event.
# [23:51] <jcraig> // This "dismissrequest" event is associated with the previous "keydown" and "keyup" events.
# [23:51] <jcraig> }
# [23:51] <timeless> benjamp: if the checkbox handles the spacebar
# [23:51] <timeless> ... ---
# [23:51] <timeless> ... keydown, if handled by checkbox, you're done
# [23:52] <timeless> q?
# [23:52] * Zakim sees rbyers, weinig, benjamp, jcraig on the speaker queue
# [23:52] <timeless> ack weinig
# [23:52] * Zakim sees rbyers, benjamp, jcraig on the speaker queue
# [23:52] <timeless> weinig: my concern with the question, and i wanted
# [23:52] <timeless> ... "should we look for generic shapes for intention events"
# [23:52] <timeless> ... i'd understand you'd want this for keyboard actions
# [23:53] <timeless> ... first a physical key event
# [23:53] <timeless> ... the os gets a chance to get decide what it means
# [23:53] <timeless> ... the thing i don't understand is why we'd generalize this to many different problem sets from the get go
# [23:53] <timeless> ... i'm not sure why polymorphism would be necessary
# [23:53] <timeless> ... why scroll/keyboard interactions should be handled identically
# [23:53] <timeless> chaals: you scroll using down / pagedown key / gesture / assistive technology
# [23:54] <timeless> ... the issue we have is that if you don't collect each of this different things and deal with them at the same level
# [23:54] <timeless> ... the problem isn't that a given thing will kill us all
# [23:54] <timeless> ... it's that the diversity means that web developers screw it up
# [23:54] <timeless> ... web developers interfere with a noticable number of people's user interface
# [23:55] <timeless> ... scroll, but for a user, it might mean something else
# [23:55] <timeless> ... twitter does this to me, every day
# [23:55] <timeless> q+ to say that FCC's complaint form interfered with me
# [23:55] * Zakim sees rbyers, benjamp, jcraig, timeless on the speaker queue
# [23:55] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@public.cloak) (weinig)
# [23:55] <timeless> weinig: if it all goes well, Twitter would just have to handle one event handler for scroll, and get them all for free
# [23:55] <timeless> ... rubber band or scroll or bump
# [23:55] <timeless> chaals: correct
# [23:55] <timeless> ... the complication is that there are differences in what can be done
# [23:56] <timeless> weinig: it seems to be hard to fathom custom scrolling with scrolling with
# [23:56] <timeless> ... it would seem you want completely different code running
# [23:56] <timeless> q?
# [23:56] * Zakim sees rbyers, benjamp, jcraig, timeless on the speaker queue
# [23:56] <jcraig> q?
# [23:56] * Zakim sees rbyers, benjamp, jcraig, timeless on the speaker queue
# [23:56] <rbyers> q-
# [23:56] * Zakim sees benjamp, jcraig, timeless on the speaker queue
# [23:56] <timeless> [ We have an extra 15 minutes ]
# [23:56] <timeless> ack benjamp
# [23:56] * Zakim sees jcraig, timeless on the speaker queue
# [23:57] <timeless> benjamp: we can schedule more time for editing tomorrow
# [23:57] * timeless action to ArtB
# [23:57] <chaals> q+ to say contenteditable doesn't really work for most editors...
# [23:57] * Zakim sees jcraig, timeless, chaals on the speaker queue
# [23:57] <timeless> ... what i want to show everyone is what this looks like
# [23:57] <timeless> ... this is a demo of intention events
# [23:57] * Quits: song (~song@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [23:57] <timeless> [ Demo ]
# [23:57] <jrossi> q?
# [23:57] * Zakim sees jcraig, timeless, chaals on the speaker queue
# [23:57] * timeless url ??
# [23:58] <timeless> [ presses "a" ]
# [23:58] <timeless> [ gets an event ]
# [23:58] <timeless> [ presses "ctrl-b" ]
# [23:58] <timeless> [ gets a format event ]
# [23:58] <timeless> [ presses "ctrl-a" ]
# [23:58] * Quits: fjh (~fhirsch3@public.cloak) (fjh)
# [23:58] <jrossi> demo: http://w3c.github.io/editing-explainer/demos/intentions-demo.html
# [23:58] <timeless> [ gets before selection change ]
# [23:59] <timeless> s|demo: http://w3c.github.io/editing-explainer/demos/intentions-demo.html|-> http://w3c.github.io/editing-explainer/demos/intentions-demo.html Demo|
# [23:59] <timeless> benjamp: on this sample, you could do content editable with intention events
# Session Close: Tue Oct 28 00:00:00 2014

The end :)