/irc-logs / w3c / #webapps / 2014-10-28 / end

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# Session Start: Tue Oct 28 00:00:00 2014
# Session Ident: #webapps
# [00:00] <timeless> ... MS Office wanted to be able to style text w/o being able to modify text
# [00:00] <timeless> ... to give you a default style for email
# [00:00] <timeless> ... you could do that by canceling all text events except formatting
# [00:00] <timeless> ... you could talk about how intention events could apply to a custom component
# [00:00] * Quits: AndroUser (~androirc@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [00:00] <jcraig> ack me
# [00:00] <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to mention potential requested code sample: and to [Example]
# [00:00] * Zakim sees timeless, chaals on the speaker queue
# [00:00] <rniwa> q+
# [00:00] * Zakim sees timeless, chaals, rniwa on the speaker queue
# [00:01] <jcraig> [Example]
# [00:01] <jcraig> partial interface UIEvent {
# [00:01] <timeless> jcraig: someone mentioned specific examples
# [00:01] <jcraig> readonly attribute EventID id; // UID of current event
# [00:01] <jcraig> readonly attribute EventList relatedEvents; // List of related events, with ID and potentially type of each event.
# [00:01] <jcraig> // This "dismissrequest" event is associated with the previous "keydown" and "keyup" events.
# [00:01] <jcraig> }
# [00:01] <timeless> ... we had Jason Kiss
# [00:01] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@public.cloak)
# [00:01] <timeless> ... develop a polyfill for some of these events
# [00:01] * Quits: smaug (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [00:01] <chaals> q-
# [00:01] * Zakim sees timeless, rniwa on the speaker queue
# [00:01] <timeless> ack me
# [00:01] <Zakim> timeless, you wanted to say that FCC's complaint form interfered with me
# [00:01] * Zakim sees rniwa on the speaker queue
# [00:01] * Quits: vollick_ (~vollick@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [00:02] * Quits: israelh (~israelh@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [00:02] <timeless> timeless: Both the web page (FCC) and myself wanted to advance to the next field, (I pressed tab), we both won -- I lost (double advance)
# [00:02] <timeless> ack rniwa
# [00:03] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [00:03] <cyns> q+
# [00:03] * Zakim sees cyns on the speaker queue
# [00:03] <timeless> rniwa: "Keyboard is easy to spec"
# [00:03] <benjamp> q+
# [00:03] * Zakim sees cyns, benjamp on the speaker queue
# [00:03] <timeless> [ Travis kicks him ]
# [00:03] <timeless> ... when you move the cursor, it said "modify event"
# [00:03] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@public.cloak)
# [00:03] <timeless> ... but different OSs/Browsers do different things
# [00:03] <chaals> q+
# [00:03] * Zakim sees cyns, benjamp, chaals on the speaker queue
# [00:03] <timeless> ... right could mean right-physical, or next-logical
# [00:04] <timeless> ... cursor end could mean line end or page end
# [00:04] <timeless> ... we need to be careful what kind of extensibility we need to be aware of
# [00:04] <chaals> q+ to say "how you move the cursor is different from browser to browser" is sort of the point
# [00:04] * Zakim sees cyns, benjamp, chaals on the speaker queue
# [00:04] <timeless> ... valueChange
# [00:04] <timeless> ack cyns
# [00:04] * Zakim sees benjamp, chaals on the speaker queue
# [00:04] * Joins: AndroUser (~androirc@public.cloak)
# [00:04] <timeless> cyns: scrolling
# [00:04] <timeless> ... while you might want different behavior for the scroll itself
# [00:04] <timeless> ... infinite scroll (image search results)
# [00:05] <timeless> ... you still want to load the next batch of things
# [00:05] <jcraig> q+
# [00:05] * Zakim sees benjamp, chaals, jcraig on the speaker queue
# [00:05] <timeless> ... using the intention event
# [00:05] <timeless> ... and other scripts for the details
# [00:05] <timeless> ack benjamp
# [00:05] * Zakim sees chaals, jcraig on the speaker queue
# [00:05] <timeless> benjamp: rniwa, maybe actions can be tied to extensions
# [00:05] <timeless> ... "shift-right-arrow"
# [00:05] <timeless> ... conjecturing, associate with "modify caret" + "to right"
# [00:06] <timeless> ... if the site wants to do something else, they could listen to the keys and said a different intention event
# [00:06] <timeless> ... you can modify what an intention is
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# [00:06] <timeless> [ Editing Explainer ]
# [00:06] <timeless> benjamp: for a keyboard event
# [00:06] <timeless> ... DeclareIntention(
# [00:06] * Joins: nvdbleek (~nvdbleek@public.cloak)
# [00:06] <timeless> ... changing the intention of an action
# [00:06] <rniwa> q+
# [00:06] * Zakim sees chaals, jcraig, rniwa on the speaker queue
# [00:06] <timeless> ... "shift-right-arrow" in RTL
# [00:06] <timeless> ... i want it to be non standard
# [00:07] <timeless> ... I can map this to be "modify-selection" + "left"
# [00:07] <timeless> ... )
# [00:07] <jcraig> q-
# [00:07] * Zakim sees chaals, rniwa on the speaker queue
# [00:07] <timeless> ... then you can respond to it in the intention handler
# [00:07] <timeless> ack chaals
# [00:07] <Zakim> chaals, you wanted to say "how you move the cursor is different from browser to browser" is sort of the point
# [00:07] * Zakim sees rniwa on the speaker queue
# [00:07] <timeless> chaals: instead of you listening to the interface action in the web app
# [00:07] <timeless> ... you get the platform event
# [00:07] <timeless> ... concept
# [00:07] <timeless> ack rniwa
# [00:07] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [00:08] * Joins: song (~song@public.cloak)
# [00:08] <timeless> rniwa: what if today all browsers do selection logically
# [00:08] <timeless> ... but what if a browser wants it to be physically
# [00:08] <timeless> ... extend bidi text selection to the right
# [00:08] <jcraig> s/physically/visually/
# [00:08] <timeless> ... it might be different
# [00:08] * Joins: vollick (~vollick@public.cloak)
# [00:09] <timeless> ... to be able to extend physically
# [00:09] <timeless> benjamp: if a browser creates selections that are disjoint
# [00:09] <timeless> ... the browser needs to keep in mind that this may break sites
# [00:09] * Joins: fjh (~fhirsch3@public.cloak)
# [00:09] <timeless> rniwa: how do we support new intentions
# [00:09] * Quits: JonathanJ1 (~hollobit@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [00:09] <timeless> chaals: we already have that problem
# [00:10] <timeless> ... we add a new device interface
# [00:10] <timeless> ... and the web app becomes totally unusable
# [00:10] <jcraig> q+
# [00:10] * Zakim sees jcraig on the speaker queue
# [00:10] <timeless> ... i suspect that's not a really big problem
# [00:10] <timeless> ... future proofing is always difficult
# [00:10] <timeless> ... but future proofing based on what we've got is a nightmare
# [00:10] <timeless> ... we will continue to see new intentions
# [00:10] <timeless> ack jcraig
# [00:10] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [00:11] <timeless> jcraig: rniwa and weinig were describing selection model changing
# [00:11] <timeless> ... that might be the case for the api to set the specific selection
# [00:11] <timeless> ... in continuous scroll
# [00:11] <timeless> ... instead of a series of scroll events
# [00:11] <timeless> ... set some values on view
# [00:12] <timeless> janina: sometimes we say intention and talk about the way we achieve something
# [00:12] * timeless Janina Sajka
# [00:12] * Joins: vollick_ (~vollick@public.cloak)
# [00:12] <timeless> ... we need to be careful about language
# [00:12] * Quits: LJWatson (~chatzilla@public.cloak) ("Carpe diem")
# [00:12] <timeless> chaals: that gives you lots of things to think about
# [00:13] <timeless> ... shall we put this on the agenda tomorrow?
# [00:13] <timeless> benjamp: yes
# [00:13] <timeless> chaals: people want to make contenteditable go away
# [00:13] * Joins: jeff (jeff@public.cloak)
# [00:14] <timeless> ArtB: preference?
# [00:14] <timeless> chaals: after 3
# [00:14] <timeless> rniwa: likewise (but for performance conflict)
# [00:14] <timeless> ArtB: ok, 3-4
# [00:14] <timeless> jcraig: we had other topics other than events/editing
# [00:14] <timeless> ... join had topics about selection api
# [00:14] * Joins: Hyunjin (~Hyunjin@public.cloak)
# [00:14] * timeless joni ??
# [00:14] <timeless> ... computed role on element
# [00:14] <timeless> ... user context / user settings
# [00:15] <timeless> s/3-4/3:30-5/
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# [00:22] <chaals1> scribe: Chaals
# [00:22] <chaals1> Topic: Annotations
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# [00:22] <chaals1> FJH: The idea is to enable an annotation to something that is on the web. You have a body of an annotation annotating something.
# [00:22] * Joins: a12u (~androirc@public.cloak)
# [00:22] <chaals1> … you need to point to the thing you are annotating.
# [00:22] * Quits: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
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# [00:23] <chaals1> … which might be a part of a resoource - word, sentence, video fragment...
# [00:23] <chaals1> … that's a target of the annottation.
# [00:23] <chaals1> The thing you annotate may change. So how do you keepthe target pointing to the right place
# [00:23] <chaals1> s/The/... the
# [00:23] <chaals1> … using a word-count might be fragile, for example.
# [00:24] <chaals1> … We might not get perfection but we want robust linking.
# [00:24] <chaals1> … Doug has done some stuff, and Rob too.
# [00:24] <chaals1> DS: I use a Mac, so we have problems connecting to things
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# [00:25] <azaroth_> q?
# [00:25] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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# [00:25] <chaals1> s/https://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/November2014Meeting//
# [00:25] * azaroth_ is now known as azaroth
# [00:25] <fjh> q?
# [00:25] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [00:25] <chaals1> DougS: This is sort of related to Selection API. Instead of based on user input it is based on something that was being selected before.
# [00:26] <chaals1> … problems include not having ids, having duplicate strings, or a documnt gets changed, ….
# [00:26] <chaals1> [slide: solutions]
# [00:26] * chaals1 pointer to slides?
# [00:27] <chaals1> [slide: example of context - 32 characters before and after the thing that is being selected]
# [00:27] <chaals1> … have a strawman, looking for help on how to achieve. One idea was using the find-in-page function...
# [00:28] <chaals1> … we don't expose the text locations through an API
# [00:28] * Joins: MichaelC (cooper@public.cloak)
# [00:28] <chaals1> TL: There's nothing in W3C platform. In the DHTML platform from MS we had something like this.
# [00:28] <ArtB> zakim, who's here?
# [00:28] <Zakim> On the phone I see Portland, lgombos
# [00:28] <Zakim> Portland has timeless
# [00:28] <Zakim> On IRC I see MichaelC, JonathanJ1, azaroth, a12u, marcosc, myakura_, smfr, forty41, ArtB, chaals1, jeff, vollick_, fjh, song, nvdbleek, sam__, tantek, mihnea_____, sam, arunranga,
# [00:28] <Zakim> ... kn1, MarkS, rbyers, joanie, jrossi, jhund, rniwa, alan-i, kurosawa, Tomoyuki, Zefa, glenn_, hiroto__, bkardell_, darobin, plh, kenneth_, zcorpan, adrianba, hjlee, hiroki,
# [00:28] <Zakim> ... plinss, anssik, bryan_, jungkees, RRSAgent, Zakim, lgombos, marcosc_, kochi1, kochi, tyoshino, igrigorik, stryx`_, stryx`, MikeSmith, hober, paul___irish, slightlyoff, tobie,
# [00:28] <Zakim> ... astearns
# [00:28] * Parts: smfr (~smfr@public.cloak) (smfr)
# [00:28] <chaals1> … IE's find on page is built on top of this, on the precursor to the DOM range API.
# [00:28] * Parts: vollick_ (~vollick@public.cloak) (vollick_)
# [00:28] * Quits: plh (plehegar@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
# [00:28] <chaals1> DS: That could be an interesting starting point, perhaps.
# [00:29] <chaals1> ACTION: travis to find an MSDN page that describes this
# [00:29] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [00:29] * RRSAgent records action 23
# [00:29] <trackbot> Created ACTION-753 - Find an msdn page that describes this [on Travis Leithead - due 2014-11-03].
# [00:29] <myakura_> s/richt/rbyers/
# [00:29] * Parts: MichaelC (cooper@public.cloak) (Leaving)
# [00:29] <chaals1> s/describes this/describes the finding thing in IE
# [00:29] <chaals1> DS: This is all speculative. We want to find text...
# [00:29] <chaals1> [slide: strawman]
# [00:29] <fjh> q?
# [00:29] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [00:29] * rniwa finds the MSDN page: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ie/ms536422(v=vs.85).aspx
# [00:29] <darobin> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/window.find -> windows.find() is also related to this
# [00:29] <chaals1> … simple case is a string you want to match
# [00:30] <fjh> the MSDN page: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ie/ms536422(v=vs.85).aspx
# [00:30] <chaals1> … have an idea how to style this too.
# [00:30] * Joins: benjamp (~benjamp@public.cloak)
# [00:30] <chaals1> close action-753
# [00:30] * trackbot is closing action-753.
# [00:30] <trackbot> Closed action-753.
# [00:30] * Joins: HZ (~HZ@public.cloak)
# [00:30] <chaals1> [slide: strawman part 2]
# [00:30] * Joins: youngwoojo (~youngwoojo@public.cloak)
# [00:30] * azaroth notes: Model for the prefix/suffix selector http://www.openannotation.org/spec/core/specific.html#TextQuoteSelector
# [00:30] <chaals1> [slide: styling]
# [00:31] <chaals1> q?
# [00:31] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [00:31] * Joins: Ian (ijacobs@public.cloak)
# [00:31] <azaroth> q+
# [00:31] * Zakim sees azaroth on the speaker queue
# [00:31] <chaals1> TL: You showed some potential ways to find the annotation. And you ended up proposing stuff based on literal text and before/after. Is there a reason why that bubbled to the top?
# [00:31] <chaals1> DS: Not really.
# [00:32] <chaals1> … don't know how this would work, and what it would try.
# [00:32] <chaals1> q+
# [00:32] * Zakim sees azaroth, chaals on the speaker queue
# [00:32] * Yves rrsagent,draft minutes
# [00:32] * Yves rrsagent, draft minutes
# [00:32] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html Yves
# [00:32] <chaals1> … I didn't know how to do edit distance. CSS selector would be the fastest if you knew how to do it
# [00:32] <chaals1> FJH: Did you run this by the annotation conf?
# [00:32] * Yves rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight
# [00:32] <RRSAgent> ok, Yves; I will not start a new log at midnight
# [00:32] <chaals1> Kristof: We're working on a fork of @@
# [00:32] * Yves rrsagent, draft minutes
# [00:32] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html Yves
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# [00:33] * Parts: Ian (ijacobs@public.cloak) (Leaving)
# [00:33] <chaals1> … we implemented something related to this. You can pass in a bunch of selectors using different types, and a bunch of registered @@@ strategies. The framework is meant to run through the strategies to find solutions.
# [00:33] <chaals1> … they could be ranges, or in the case of images you might want to return specific part of the image which has been identified.
# [00:33] <chaals1> s/@@@/anchoring/
# [00:34] <chaals1> … We have one using Xpath selector, one that is character position, or using context and levenstein distance.
# [00:34] <chaals1> … These all should be extensible.
# [00:34] <chaals1> … Other side of the equation, pass in a fragment and describe it with different selectors, so you get the fragment, and it gives back different selectors.
# [00:35] <ArtB> q?
# [00:35] * Zakim sees azaroth, chaals on the speaker queue
# [00:35] <chaals1> … We save the selection, and try to re-anchor with several strategies for robustness.
# [00:35] <chaals1> q?
# [00:35] * Zakim sees azaroth, chaals on the speaker queue
# [00:35] * Joins: Norbert (~Norbert@public.cloak)
# [00:35] <chaals1> DS: There are plenty of approaches we could take, this is a strawman.
# [00:35] <chaals1> … we want things useful for the platform in general not just annotations.
# [00:35] <chaals1> TL: This seems like a missing piece. You can use selectors, but this doesn't exist yet.
# [00:36] <chaals1> DS: Right. Seen people wanting to find text in the content but not the chrome of a webapp
# [00:36] <chaals1> TL: Manual text finding from the node tree is slow.
# [00:36] <chaals1> DS: Right
# [00:36] <chaals1> … a find in page dialog won't cross or block on boundaries.
# [00:37] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [00:37] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
# [00:37] <fjh> q?
# [00:37] * Zakim sees azaroth, chaals on the speaker queue
# [00:37] <chaals1> RobS: Various ways of selecting the area, and then deciding if something matches. Levenstein distance isn't the same as Xpath.
# [00:37] <chaals1> … does it match vs where is it.
# [00:37] * Quits: jrossi (~jrossi@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [00:38] <chaals1> … in open annotation data model we have what we call selectors, - text quote selector and offset. Data offset for arbitrary bitstreams, SVG, fragment selector
# [00:38] <ArtB> Present+ Doug_Schepers, Robert_Sanderson, Frederick_Hirsch
# [00:38] <chaals1> … One way forward is to figure out how you transfer a set of selectors via the API.
# [00:38] <ArtB> q?
# [00:38] * Zakim sees azaroth, chaals on the speaker queue
# [00:38] <chaals1> DS: That's what the options object would be
# [00:38] <ArtB> ack azaroth
# [00:38] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
# [00:38] <ArtB> ack chaals
# [00:38] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [00:39] * Quits: adrianba (~adrianba@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [00:39] <ArtB> Present+ Kristof_Csillag
# [00:40] <chaals1> CMN: Have you looked at the fuzzy pointers developed about 12 years ago for EARL? Like Xpointers designed for HTML, to solve this kind of problem
# [00:40] <fjh> q?
# [00:40] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [00:40] <chaals1> ACTION: Doug to ask chaals where fuzzy pointers stuff is
# [00:40] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [00:40] * RRSAgent records action 24
# [00:40] <trackbot> Error finding 'Doug'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/users>.
# [00:40] <chaals1> DS: There is a lot of prior art here...
# [00:40] <chaals1> Kristof: We find text in a corpus and map it back to where it is in the DOM
# [00:40] <ArtB> ACTION: frederick work with Doug and Chaals re fuzzy pointers stuff for Web Annotations WG
# [00:40] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [00:40] * RRSAgent records action 25
# [00:40] <trackbot> Created ACTION-754 - Work with doug and chaals re fuzzy pointers stuff for web annotations wg [on Frederick Hirsch - due 2014-11-03].
# [00:40] <chaals1> … the browser knows where the teext it finds is, but doesn't expose that. Doing so would be good for everyone.
# [00:41] <chaals1> … We are using selectors defined by Open Annotation group.
# [00:41] <chaals1> q?
# [00:41] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [00:41] <ArtB> q?
# [00:41] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [00:41] * Yves chaals, http://jibbering.com/discussion/fuzzy-pointers.html ?
# [00:41] <chaals1> FJH: What are our next steps?
# [00:41] * Quits: HZ (~HZ@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [00:41] <chaals1> [looking at http://jibbering.com/discussion/fuzzy-pointers.html is aprt of solving action 754]
# [00:42] <chaals1> FJH: We're looking at next steps. Are there any problems with where Doug is going?
# [00:43] <chaals1> Kristof: Are we doing this to work on any kind of document, or just for a few data rtypes? Because if the former we cannot just rely on DOM ranges now, and need a new type.
# [00:43] <chaals1> ArtB: API scope is a common question for us. One answer is always "what are the use cases"?
# [00:43] <chaals1> … whatis the status of use cases for this?
# [00:43] * Parts: rbyers (~sid31141@public.cloak)
# [00:43] <fjh> q?
# [00:43] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [00:43] <chaals1> RobS: In digital publishing IG we have a long set of use cases some of which cover this.
# [00:44] <chaals1> … that's work in W3C and IDPF (who do ePub)
# [00:44] <chaals1> … there are definitely use cases around annotating images. HTML and text are the things that change most often.
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# [00:44] <chaals1> FJH: I would argue taht we should start focusing on text in HTML.
# [00:45] <chaals1> … where you know someone will edit it, but you want your link not to die.
# [00:45] <chaals1> … this was discussed in Annotation Workshop and is in proceedings.
# [00:45] <chaals1> ArtB: To best engage with Webapps, should identify the use cases that are clearly in scope.
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# [00:46] <chaals1> FJH: We have a proposal that goes beyond the use cases, but we need to figure out how to progress it. It needs to be implemented - do we do that through webapps?
# [00:46] <Cyril> rrsagent, pointer
# [00:46] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-irc#T23-45-56
# [00:46] <chaals1> TL: W=You could polyfill now, and it will just be slow, right?
# [00:46] <chaals1> DS: Right. So we should come up with solid use cases, make a spec and polyfill it and see if we get people to agree.
# [00:47] <chaals1> TL: Think you should continue. Please support your scenarios with some APIs you want in general. On finding text, it will probably be prohibitively expensive to find all matches at once. Finding all is an iteration on find next where you can yield back.
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# [00:47] <chaals1> … text should be senstitive to unicode issues for characters - some things might not match all the time.
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# [00:48] <chaals1> … to generalise it, case insensitivity, regexp, etc would be useful.
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# [00:48] <chaals1> … Think that this really is something missing from the platform.
# [00:48] <ArtB> q?
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# [00:48] <azaroth> q?
# [00:48] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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# [00:48] <chaals1> PaulC: Go look at all of the string matching stuff in Xquery/Xpath. We looked at all of those things when we did that stuff. It's in a standalone W3C spec.
# [00:49] <fjh> q?
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# [00:49] <chaals1> FJH: Next steps: Bring summary of use cases to webapps. In our group do a survey of previous work, and produce a working draft and share it.
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# [00:49] <chaals1> … want to understand how we get beyond that.
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# [00:49] <azaroth> ACTION: azaroth to update use case document and extract robust anchoring items to provide to webapps
# [00:49] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [00:49] * RRSAgent records action 26
# [00:49] <trackbot> Error finding 'azaroth'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/users>.
# [00:49] <chaals1> … does webapps have any constraints about timelines?
# [00:50] <chaals1> TL: Is it in our charter?
# [00:50] <chaals1> ArtB: Yep. can be done as a joint deliverable.
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# [00:50] <chaals1> FJH: Anything happening in webapps we should know about?
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# [00:51] <chaals1> CMN: Look at editing - you can maybe use taht sometimes to help understand what changed, and get updates to keep your pointers able to find what happened.
# [00:52] <chaals1> RB: There is also a CG that worked a while ago on "CSS Xpointer scheme".
# [00:52] <chaals1> … it would have to be rewritten to make stuff work, but I have some notes somewhere and think this can be mapped onto an HTML DOM, and would allow you to make webpointers. It's pretty easy.
# [00:53] <chaals1> ACTION: Robin to solve the rest of the problems related to robust targeting of changing documents.
# [00:53] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [00:53] * RRSAgent records action 27
# [00:53] <trackbot> Created ACTION-755 - Solve the rest of the problems related to robust targeting of changing documents. [on Robin Berjon - due 2014-11-03].
# [00:53] * Parts: richardschwerdtfeger (~RichS@public.cloak) (richardschwerdtfeger)
# [00:53] <chaals1> Kristof: There are different applications and document types, and to support tehm all we should be able to register new anchor types and discovery algorithms. So we should have a framework that applications can use to communicate through, adding new algorithms rather than trying to a priori specify them all.
# [00:53] <darobin> *cough*
# [00:54] <chaals1> action-755 due wednesday
# [00:54] * trackbot is changing the due date on action-755.
# [00:54] <trackbot> Set action-755 Solve the rest of the problems related to robust targeting of changing documents. due date to 2014-10-29.
# [00:54] <chaals1> … we should be able to inject a new strategy for finding things into the framework.
# [00:54] <chaals1> FJH: Right but I don't think that bears on the webapps group.
# [00:55] <chaals1> DS: That would have to be something that isn't the same as find-text.
# [00:55] <chaals1> FJH: We'll figure it out when we get a better proposal today
# [00:55] <chaals1> DS: Travis were you saying we make something like a regex, and then apply it repeatedly finding the next match is what we should do?
# [00:55] <ArtB> q?
# [00:55] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [00:56] <chaals1> TL: Sure… maybe...
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# [00:56] <chaals1> [adjourned]
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# [00:56] <Zakim> -lgombos
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# [00:56] <Zakim> -Portland
# [00:56] <Zakim> RWC_WAPI()12:00PM has ended
# [00:56] <Zakim> Attendees were +1.650.318.aaaa, Portland, Portland.a, Seattle, Olli_Pettay, Domenic, anssik, tyoshino, lgombos?, timeless, +47.21.65.aacc, hallvors, lgombos, +44.207.095.aadd,
# [00:56] <Zakim> ... mvano, johnmellor-chrome, +44.207.346.aaee, arunranga
# [00:57] * chaals1 wonders if anyone has seen a black USB-µUSB cable that is black with yellow spots (cloth-covered like an old-fashioned electrical cord) ;( It's sadly missed
# [00:57] * timeless could spare one
# [00:57] * chaals1 has a backup, but I will be sad if I have really lost my cable.
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# [00:58] <chaals1> rrsagent, draft minutes
# [00:58] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html chaals1
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# [16:54] * abarsto is now known as ArtB
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# [16:57] <ArtB> zakim, this will be rwc_wapi
# [16:57] <Zakim> ok, ArtB, I see RWC_WAPI()12:00PM already started
# [16:57] <ArtB> RRSAgent, log?
# [16:57] <RRSAgent> I'm logging. Sorry, nothing found for 'log'
# [16:57] <ArtB> RRSAgent, help
# [16:57] <RRSAgent> More detailed help is available in http://www.w3.org/2002/03/RRSAgent
# [16:57] <RRSAgent> Some of the commands I know are:
# [16:57] <RRSAgent> silence - Stop logging (also: stop, off, ...)
# [16:57] <RRSAgent> listen - Start logging (also: start, on, ...)
# [16:57] <RRSAgent> excuse us - Leave the channel (also: bye)
# [16:58] <RRSAgent> grep [-i] [first-last|max] <perl regex> - Search the logs
# [16:58] <RRSAgent> e.g. grep foo, grep 5 bar, grep -i things [case independent]
# [16:58] <RRSAgent> append |mail EMAIL-ADDRESS to email results instead of printing
# [16:58] <RRSAgent> bookmark - Give the URI of the current log
# [16:58] <RRSAgent> show action items - give a list of ACTION: entries
# [16:58] <RRSAgent> drop action n - remove entry [n] from the list of action items
# [16:58] <RRSAgent> I respond to 'RRSAgent, command' in public and '/msg RRSAgent command' in private
# [16:58] * Joins: bryan_ (~uid15860@public.cloak)
# [16:58] <RRSAgent> Logging Policy: All public output is logged if I am listening except for
# [16:58] <RRSAgent> "action" messages (messages sent with the '/me' command) and
# [16:58] <RRSAgent> any lines starting [off]. All commands to me are logged.
# [16:58] <RRSAgent> My public output is logged but these lines are not searchable.
# [16:58] <RRSAgent> The log is in http://www.w3.org/2014/
# [16:58] <RRSAgent> Do RRSAgent, adminhelp for help on administrative commands
# [16:58] <ArtB> RRSAgent, bye
# [16:58] <RRSAgent> I see 27 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-actions.rdf :
# [16:58] <RRSAgent> ACTION: Marcos work with SysApps to find an agenda slot for Tuesday [1]
# [16:58] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-irc#T16-15-57
# [16:58] <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow start CfC to publish UI Events as a "gutted" WG Note [2]
# [16:58] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-irc#T16-26-26
# [16:58] * Joins: adrianba (~adrianba@public.cloak)
# [16:58] <RRSAgent> ACTION: Travis to check that the D3E tests are in GH or Mercurial, and if needed fix [3]
# [16:58] * Joins: shoko (~shoko@public.cloak)
# [16:58] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-irc#T16-28-07
# [16:58] <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow work with Adrian to find a replacement TC for Alex and D3E [4]
# [16:58] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-irc#T16-28-59
# [16:59] <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow create a new bugzilla component for Inner Text [5]
# [16:59] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-irc#T16-38-01
# [16:59] <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow start a CfC to publish a "gutted" WG Note of the Fullscreen API [6]
# [16:59] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-irc#T16-40-52
# [16:59] <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow start a CfC to publish a Proposed Recommendation of IDB [7]
# [16:59] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-irc#T16-52-30
# [16:59] <bryan_> present+ Bryan_Sullivan
# [16:59] <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow issue a Call for Test Facilitator for IME spec [8]
# [16:59] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-irc#T16-59-24
# [16:59] <RRSAgent> ACTION: charles ask cjk interest group and others about IME (use cases, tests, etc.) [9]
# [16:59] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-irc#T17-02-50
# [16:59] <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow re SSE test results, followup on the Timeouts with the 2 test facilitators [10]
# [16:59] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-irc#T17-08-35
# [16:59] <RRSAgent> ACTION: yves, follow with Cameron re PR 271 and the Web IDL test suite [11]
# [16:59] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-irc#T17-11-01
# [16:59] <RRSAgent> ACTION: yves, work on moving Web IDL v1 to REC [12]
# [16:59] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-irc#T17-15-21
# [16:59] * Parts: joanie (~joanmarie@public.cloak) (joanie)
# [16:59] <RRSAgent> ACTION: charles try to find someone to help Yves, Cam and Boris on Web IDL v1 [13]
# [16:59] * Yves rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight
# [16:59] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-irc#T17-15-58
# [16:59] <RRSAgent> ACTION: Yves to work on moving Web IDL v1 to REC [14]
# [16:59] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-irc#T17-16-34
# [16:59] <RRSAgent> ACTION: adrian determine Kris' availability to work on the Web Messaging and Web Sockets implemenation reports [15]
# [16:59] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-irc#T17-19-16
# [16:59] * Joins: brianraymor (~brianraymor@public.cloak)
# [16:59] <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow followup with Simon re running the Web Workers tests [16]
# [16:59] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-irc#T17-19-41
# [16:59] <RRSAgent> ACTION: abateman2 to determine Kris' availability to work on the Web Messaging and Web Sockets implemenation reports [17]
# [16:59] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-irc#T17-20-06
# [17:00] <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow start a CfC to gut XHR L2 and publish a WG Note [18]
# [17:00] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-irc#T18-45-45
# [17:00] <RRSAgent> ACTION: Arun mark file list as Feature @ Risk [19]
# [17:00] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-irc#T21-09-51
# [17:00] <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow start a CfC to publish File API LCWD [20]
# [17:00] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-irc#T21-11-21
# [17:00] <RRSAgent> ACTION: Arun deleted the UC in File API that starts with "Data should be able to be stored ..." [21]
# [17:00] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-irc#T21-15-45
# [17:00] <RRSAgent> ACTION: Yves followup with Cameron re PR 27 and the Web IDL test suite [22]
# [17:00] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-irc#T21-30-04-1
# [17:00] <RRSAgent> ACTION: travis to find an MSDN page that describes this [23]
# [17:00] * Joins: a12u (~androirc@public.cloak)
# [17:00] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-irc#T23-28-53
# [17:00] <RRSAgent> ACTION: Doug to ask chaals where fuzzy pointers stuff is [24]
# [17:00] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-irc#T23-39-57
# [17:00] <RRSAgent> ACTION: frederick work with Doug and Chaals re fuzzy pointers stuff for Web Annotations WG [25]
# [17:00] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-irc#T23-40-31
# [17:00] * Joins: jcdufourd (~jcdufourd@public.cloak)
# [17:00] <RRSAgent> ACTION: azaroth to update use case document and extract robust anchoring items to provide to webapps [26]
# [17:00] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-irc#T23-49-44
# [17:00] <RRSAgent> ACTION: Robin to solve the rest of the problems related to robust targeting of changing documents. [27]
# [17:00] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-irc#T23-52-48
# [17:00] * Parts: RRSAgent (rrsagent@public.cloak) (RRSAgent)
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# [17:00] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-webapps-irc
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# [17:01] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make log public
# [17:01] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, ArtB
# [17:01] <brianraymor> Present+ Brian_Raymor
# [17:01] <ArtB> RRSAgent, log spans midnight
# [17:01] <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'log spans midnight', ArtB. Try /msg RRSAgent help
# [17:01] * Joins: aaa (~aaa@public.cloak)
# [17:01] <ArtB> RRSAgent, logs span midnight
# [17:01] <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'logs span midnight', ArtB. Try /msg RRSAgent help
# [17:02] <ArtB> RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
# [17:02] <RRSAgent> ok, ArtB; I will not start a new log at midnight
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# [17:04] <timeless> scribe: timeless
# [17:04] * Quits: jerome (~jerome@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [17:04] <ArtB> ScribeNick: timeless
# [17:04] <ArtB> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/November2014Meeting#Agenda_Tuesday_October_28
# [17:04] * Joins: StephanSteglcih (~StephanSteglcih@public.cloak)
# [17:05] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [17:05] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
# [17:05] * Joins: Dong-Young (~Dong-Young@public.cloak)
# [17:05] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make log Public
# [17:05] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, ArtB
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# [17:06] <ArtB> Present+ Art_Barstow, Josh_Soref, Charles_Neville
# [17:06] <Yves> Present+ Yves_Lafon
# [17:06] <benjamp> Present+ Ben_Peters
# [17:06] <timeless> Zakim, who is on the call?
# [17:06] <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.617.225.aaaa
# [17:06] <chaals> s/Charles_Neville/chaals
# [17:06] * Joins: alia (~alia@public.cloak)
# [17:06] <xiaoqian> Present+ Xiaoqian_Wu
# [17:06] <adrianba> Present+ Adrian_Bateman
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# [17:07] <alia> Present+ Ali_Alabbas
# [17:07] * Joins: ShijunS (~ShijunS@public.cloak)
# [17:07] <timeless> Zakim, aaaa is Portland
# [17:07] <Zakim> +Portland; got it
# [17:07] <_M_> present+ Mohammed Dadas
# [17:07] * Joins: spoussa (~spoussa@public.cloak)
# [17:07] <ArtB> zakim, call Portland
# [17:07] <Zakim> ok, ArtB; the call is being made
# [17:07] <weinig> Present+ Sam_Weinig
# [17:07] <gludi|2> present+ Dieter Gludovacz
# [17:07] <Zakim> +Portland
# [17:07] * chaals wonders who is on the phone already
# [17:07] <a12u> Present+ Hiroyuki_Aizu
# [17:07] <ShijunS> present+ Shijun_Sun
# [17:07] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@public.cloak)
# [17:07] <spoussa> Present+ Sakari_Poussa
# [17:07] <alan-i> Present+ Alan_Iida
# [17:07] <timeless> Zakim, who is on the call?
# [17:07] <Zakim> On the phone I see Portland, Portland
# [17:07] <chaals> zakim, who is here
# [17:07] <Zakim> chaals, you need to end that query with '?'
# [17:07] * Joins: dom (~dom@public.cloak)
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# [17:07] <Zakim> -Portland
# [17:07] <dom> Present+ dom
# [17:08] <chaals> zakim, Portland is really Laszlo
# [17:08] <Zakim> +Laszlo; got it
# [17:08] <kenneth_> Present+ Kenneth_Christiansen
# [17:08] <chaals> zakim, call portland
# [17:08] <Zakim> ok, chaals; the call is being made
# [17:08] <ArtB> zakim, call portland
# [17:08] <Zakim> ok, ArtB; the call is being made
# [17:08] <Zakim> +Portland
# [17:08] <Zakim> +Portland.a
# [17:08] <Zakim> -Portland.a
# [17:08] <chaals> zakim, call elvis
# [17:08] <Zakim> I am sorry, chaals; I do not know a number for elvis
# [17:08] * Joins: Jingwang_Qi (~Jingwang_Qi@public.cloak)
# [17:08] * Yves zakim, who is here?
# [17:08] * Zakim sees on the phone: Laszlo, Portland
# [17:08] * Zakim sees on irc: Jingwang_Qi, kenneth_, dom, sicking, spoussa, ShijunS, weinig, alia, anssik, Dong-Young, StephanSteglcih, myakura, benjamp, alan-i, zcorpan, aaa, Louay, glenn,
# [17:08] * Zakim ... RRSAgent, jcdufourd, a12u, brianraymor, shoko, adrianba, bryan_, Zakim, _M_, youngwoojo, ArtB, kunio, lgombos, gludi|2, kurosawa, chaals, annevk, Tomoki, shepazu, taku,
# [17:08] * Joins: rniwa (~rniwa@public.cloak)
# [17:08] * Zakim ... Tomoyuki, fjh, Cyril, smaug, kbx, arunranga, kochi1, kochi, paul___irish, mihnea_____, MarkS, plinss, marcosc_, tyoshino, igrigorik, stryx`_, stryx`, MikeSmith, hober,
# [17:08] * Zakim ... slightlyoff, tobie
# [17:08] <timeless> Zakim, Portland has chaals, ArtB, timeless, Yves
# [17:08] <Zakim> +chaals, ArtB, timeless, Yves; got it
# [17:08] * Joins: Hyunjin (~Hyunjin@public.cloak)
# [17:09] <sicking> present+ Jonas_Sicking
# [17:09] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [17:09] <chaals> zakim, call someone randomly and ask if their fridge is running. And if they say yes, tell them to go catch it and then laugh...
# [17:09] <Zakim> I don't understand you, chaals
# [17:09] <timeless> Zakim, Portland also has sicking
# [17:09] * Joins: sunghan (~sunghan@public.cloak)
# [17:09] <Zakim> +sicking; got it
# [17:09] <chaals> zakim, you're not unique
# [17:09] <Zakim> I don't understand 'you're not unique', chaals
# [17:09] <timeless> Zakim, [IP is smaug
# [17:09] <Zakim> +smaug; got it
# [17:09] <smaug> Present+ Olli_Pettay
# [17:09] <smaug> Zakim, nick smaug is Olli_Pettay
# [17:09] <Zakim> sorry, smaug, I do not see a party named 'Olli_Pettay'
# [17:09] * Yves chaals, by fridge, you mean the meeting room?
# [17:10] * Quits: Hyunjin (~Hyunjin@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [17:10] <smaug> zakim, who is here?
# [17:10] <Zakim> On the phone I see Laszlo, Portland, smaug
# [17:10] <Zakim> Portland has chaals, ArtB, timeless, Yves, sicking
# [17:10] <Zakim> On IRC I see sunghan, rniwa, Jingwang_Qi, kenneth_, dom, sicking, spoussa, ShijunS, weinig, alia, anssik, Dong-Young, StephanSteglcih, myakura, benjamp, alan-i, zcorpan, aaa,
# [17:10] <Zakim> ... Louay, glenn, RRSAgent, jcdufourd, a12u, brianraymor, shoko, adrianba, bryan_, Zakim, _M_, youngwoojo, ArtB, kunio, lgombos, gludi|2, kurosawa, chaals, annevk, Tomoki, shepazu,
# [17:10] <Zakim> ... taku, Tomoyuki, fjh, Cyril, smaug, kbx, arunranga, kochi1, kochi, paul___irish, mihnea_____, MarkS, plinss, marcosc_, tyoshino, igrigorik, stryx`_, stryx`, MikeSmith, hober,
# [17:10] <Zakim> ... slightlyoff
# [17:10] * dom has anyone told RRSAgent that the meeting spans midnight?
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# [17:10] * Joins: hiroto_ (~hiroto@public.cloak)
# [17:10] * timeless yes
# [17:10] <smaug> Zakim, smaug is Olli_Pettay
# [17:10] <Zakim> +Olli_Pettay; got it
# [17:10] * timeless you should tell the other rooms
# [17:10] <smaug> Zakim, nick smaug is Olli_Pettay
# [17:10] <timeless> Topic: Introductions
# [17:10] <Zakim> ok, smaug, I now associate you with Olli_Pettay
# [17:10] <smaug> Present+ Olli_Pettay
# [17:10] <timeless> chaals: good morning
# [17:11] <timeless> ... We'll wait until 9:30 until we start our first item
# [17:11] <timeless> ... as we traditionally do, we'll go around the room asking people to introduce themselves
# [17:11] <lgombos> Present+ Laszlo_Gombos
# [17:11] <timeless> ... I'm chaals, from Yandex, co-chair of this group
# [17:11] <timeless> ArtB: Arthur, I work for Nokia
# [17:11] <timeless> ... i'm also one of the chairs
# [17:12] * Joins: kn1 (~k.n@public.cloak)
# [17:12] <timeless> Josh_Soref: Josh Soref, BlackBerry, Scribe, Observer
# [17:12] <timeless> spoussa: Sakari Poussa, Intel
# [17:12] * Joins: dka (~dka@public.cloak)
# [17:12] <timeless> kenneth_: Kenneth Christiansen, Intel
# [17:12] <timeless> weinig: Sam Weinig, Apple
# [17:12] <dka> ‘ello
# [17:12] <timeless> benjamp: Ben Peters, Microsoft
# [17:12] <timeless> sicking: Joans Sicking, Mozilla
# [17:13] <timeless> ShijunS: Shijun Sun, Microsoft
# [17:13] <adrianba> s/Joans/Jonas/
# [17:13] <timeless> alan-i: Alan, Microsoft
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# [17:13] <timeless> xiaoqian: Xiao, W3 Team Contact
# [17:13] * Joins: Claes (~Claes@public.cloak)
# [17:13] <timeless> Yves: Yves, W3C
# [17:13] <adrianba> s/Alan/Ali/
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# [17:14] <timeless> a12u: XXX,
# [17:14] * bryan_ is now known as bryan
# [17:14] <jcdufourd> jcdufourd: Jean-Claude Dufourd, Institut Mines Telecom, observer
# [17:14] <Louay> Louay Bassbouss
# [17:14] * Tomoyuki is now known as tomoyuki
# [17:15] <timeless> StephanSteglcih: QQ
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# [17:15] <Dong-Young> Dong-Young Lee (LG)
# [17:15] <timeless> youngwoojo: youngwoojo, LGE, Observer
# [17:15] <bryan> bryan: Bryan Sullivan
# [17:15] <timeless> PPP: PPZ,
# [17:15] <alia> s/alan-i: Alan/alia: Ali
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# [17:15] * Parts: annevk (~annevk@public.cloak) (annevk)
# [17:15] <jcdufourd> s/QQ/Stephan Steglich, Fraunhofer Fokus, observer/
# [17:16] <timeless> richt: Rich Tibbet, Opera
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# [17:16] <timeless> shoko: Shoko RRR
# [17:16] <timeless> ZZZ
# [17:16] <timeless> AAA
# [17:16] <timeless> BBB
# [17:16] <timeless> CCC
# [17:16] <timeless> DDD: France Telecom, Obs
# [17:16] <timeless> EEE
# [17:16] <Evangelos> Evangelos Vlachogiannis Fraunhofer FIT, observer
# [17:16] <timeless> FFF: Observer
# [17:16] <timeless> GGG: Observer
# [17:16] <timeless> HHH: LG
# [17:17] <timeless> III: Orange
# [17:17] <GeunHyung> GeunHyung Kim
# [17:17] <shoko> s/RRR/Okuma, Tomo-Digi Corporation, Observer/
# [17:17] <alia> s/alan-i/alia/
# [17:17] <timeless> JJJ
# [17:17] <timeless> KKK
# [17:17] <timeless> LLL: Japan, Observer
# [17:17] <bryan> s/PPP PPZ/ Bill Hsiung, MSTAR Semiconductor
# [17:17] <timeless> MMM: Oracle
# [17:17] <timeless> marcosc_: Marcos Caseras, Mozilla
# [17:17] <timeless> VVV
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# [17:17] <timeless> WWW
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# [17:17] <timeless> XXX Observer
# [17:17] <bryan> s/PPP: PPZ/Bill Hsiung, MSTAR Semiconductor
# [17:17] <timeless> dom: Dominic, W3C
# [17:17] <israelh> Present+ Israel_Hilerio
# [17:17] <timeless> EWQ Softbank
# [17:17] <timeless> RFE
# [17:18] <timeless> WQQ
# [17:18] <timeless> POQ
# [17:18] <timeless> LMN
# [17:18] <wooglae> Present+ Wooglae_Kim
# [17:18] <timeless> FSQ Tencent
# [17:18] <dom> s/nic/nique/
# [17:18] <dka> Dan Appelquist: dka, @torgo; WebApps wg member; TAG Co-Chair; URL fan; #FirefoxOS fanboy; also A.C. rep for Telefónica.
# [17:18] <adrianba> Adrian Bateman, Microsoft
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# [17:18] <timeless> dka: Dan Applequest
# [17:18] <timeless> adrianba: Adrian, Microsoft
# [17:18] * Joins: marcosc (~marcosc@public.cloak)
# [17:18] <xiaoqian> s/FSQ/Xitong Huang
# [17:18] <timeless> IQQ
# [17:18] <timeless> DQQ
# [17:18] * Joins: hjlee (~hjlee@public.cloak)
# [17:19] <Claes> Present+ Claes_Nilsson
# [17:19] <timeless> [ Scribe apologizes ]
# [17:19] * Joins: Nishanth (~Nishanth@public.cloak)
# [17:19] <dka> s/Applequest/Appelquist
# [17:19] <timeless> Topic: Agenda
# [17:19] <timeless> s/Topic: Agenda//
# [17:19] <_M_> s/III:/Mohammed Dadas
# [17:19] * Yves zakim, who is here?
# [17:19] * Zakim sees on the phone: Laszlo, Portland, Olli_Pettay
# [17:19] * Zakim Portland has chaals, ArtB, timeless, Yves, sicking
# [17:19] * Zakim sees on irc: Nishanth, hjlee, marcosc, Hoyoun, israelh, Kumar, stone, Evangelos, kinjim, wooglae, Claes, igarashi, forty4, plh, dka, kn1, hiroto_, GeunHyung, Hyunjin, sunghan,
# [17:19] * Zakim ... rniwa, Jingwang_Qi, kenneth_, dom, sicking, spoussa, ShijunS, weinig, alia, anssik, Dong-Young, StephanSteglcih, myakura, benjamp, alan-i, zcorpan, aaa, Louay, glenn, RRSAgent,
# [17:19] * Zakim ... jcdufourd, a12u, brianraymor, shoko, adrianba, bryan, Zakim, _M_, youngwoojo, ArtB, kunio, lgombos, gludi|2, kurosawa, chaals, Tomoki, shepazu, taku, tomoyuki, fjh, Cyril,
# [17:19] * Zakim ... smaug
# [17:19] * dka though I like “Applequest” - maybe a relative of Johnny Quest?
# [17:19] <timeless> smaug: Olli Pettay, Mozilla
# [17:20] <timeless> lgombos: Laszlo Gombos, Samsung
# [17:20] * Joins: hiroki (hiroki@public.cloak)
# [17:20] * rniwa is, regrettably, not following WebApps this morning.
# [17:20] <timeless> topic: Agenda
# [17:20] * Joins: donghoon (~donghoon@public.cloak)
# [17:20] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [17:20] * rniwa will be back for editing discussion :D
# [17:20] <igarashi> present +igarashi
# [17:20] <anssik> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
# [17:20] <Zakim> +anssik; got it
# [17:20] * Joins: notbenjamin (~textual@public.cloak)
# [17:20] <anssik> Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen
# [17:20] <timeless> i/topic/anssik: Anssi Kostiainen, Intel/
# [17:20] <igarashi> +igarashi
# [17:20] * Zakim wonders where igarashi is
# [17:20] <timeless> ArtB: we were considering talking with sysapps
# [17:21] <timeless> marcosc_: let's get it out of the way
# [17:21] <timeless> s/+igarashi/Present+ igarashi/
# [17:21] <timeless> marcosc_: what APIs can be salvaged from SysApps
# [17:21] <timeless> ... brought over to this group
# [17:21] <timeless> ArtB: put that in at 1pm
# [17:21] <timeless> ... look around for wonsuk
# [17:21] <timeless> ... could one of you send an email to public-sysapps
# [17:22] <timeless> mounir: marcosc_ would be glad to do that
# [17:22] <timeless> ArtB: 1-1:30pm
# [17:22] * Quits: tomoyuki (~Tomoyuki@public.cloak) (tomoyuki)
# [17:22] * Joins: wooglae1 (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [17:22] <timeless> mounir: Permissions API ?
# [17:23] <timeless> ... after the break at 11am?
# [17:23] <timeless> chaals: yeah...
# [17:23] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [17:23] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [17:23] <timeless> chair: ArtB, chaals
# [17:23] * Joins: tomoyuki (~tomoyuki@public.cloak)
# [17:23] <timeless> i/topic:/rubys: Sam Ruby, Apple/
# [17:23] * Joins: cyns (~cyns@public.cloak)
# [17:23] <timeless> chaals: anything else for the agenda?
# [17:24] * Joins: bkardell_ (~uid10373@public.cloak)
# [17:24] <timeless> ... we could start on Screen Orientation
# [17:24] <timeless> Topic: Screen Orientation
# [17:24] <timeless> mounir: we just finished a new WD
# [17:24] <ArtB> -> https://w3c.github.io/screen-orientation/ Screen Orientation ED
# [17:24] <timeless> ... we failed to go to LC
# [17:24] <timeless> ... it's now shipping in Chrome (including for Android)
# [17:24] <timeless> ... i'm not sure if Mozilla will update
# [17:24] <ArtB> -> https://github.com/w3c/screen-orientation/issues Screen Orientation Open Issues
# [17:24] <timeless> ... there are two implementations
# [17:24] * Quits: Nishanth (~Nishanth@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [17:24] <timeless> ... one from Mozilla, one from Microsoft
# [17:25] <timeless> s/two/two prefixed/
# [17:25] <timeless> ... also Tizen has an unprefixed outdated implementation
# [17:25] * Quits: wooglae (~Adium@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [17:25] <timeless> chaals: marcosc_?
# [17:25] <timeless> mounir: wrt Open Issues
# [17:25] <timeless> ... the real outstanding one is Animation Frame Task
# [17:25] <timeless> ... it's why we didn't go to LC
# [17:25] <timeless> ... my opinion is that it isn't important
# [17:25] <timeless> ... I think sicking would agree
# [17:25] <ArtB> -> https://github.com/w3c/screen-orientation/issues/40 Issue 40 Use animation frame task
# [17:25] <timeless> ... the problem is that Animation Frame isn't defined anywhere
# [17:26] <timeless> ... we're stalling the spec for something that might not be defined for two years
# [17:26] <timeless> marcosc_: i was going to echo what he said
# [17:26] <timeless> ... from my perspective, it [the spec], is pretty much done
# [17:26] <timeless> weinig: can you give us an overview
# [17:26] * Joins: Nishanth (~Nishanth@public.cloak)
# [17:26] <timeless> ... i know the security restrictions is a bit vague
# [17:26] <timeless> ... it allows for essentially anything
# [17:26] <timeless> ... do you have an overview of what people have done
# [17:27] <timeless> ... i know that's one of the things that of concern to us
# [17:27] <timeless> mounir: the spec is vague for that reason
# [17:27] <timeless> ... we want UAs to have their own security decisions on top
# [17:27] <timeless> ... full screen is something on top
# [17:27] * Joins: jhund (~jhund@public.cloak)
# [17:27] <timeless> ... we said that it's optional to require Fullscreen
# [17:27] <timeless> ... this is how Chrome Android behaves on KitKat
# [17:27] <timeless> ... if you have no browser ui, fullscreen is not a requirement
# [17:28] <timeless> weinig: to be clear,my concern is that the spec does not define that
# [17:28] <timeless> ... and makes it optional
# [17:28] <timeless> ... it defines many ways to do this
# [17:28] <timeless> ... but someone to use this won't know what it will do
# [17:28] <timeless> ... Why did you make it a MAY in the first place?
# [17:28] <timeless> mounir: we have two different scenarios in Chrome Android
# [17:28] <timeless> ... if you fullscreen, you might not have browser ui
# [17:28] <timeless> ... you're more maximized
# [17:28] * Joins: Kevin_Hill (~Kevin_Hill@public.cloak)
# [17:28] <timeless> ... we couldn't require fullscreen
# [17:29] <timeless> weinig: i'm not sure a UC for a non-browser scenario...
# [17:29] <timeless> mounir: on the latest Android, Chrome Tabs behave like activities
# [17:29] <timeless> ... it's ok for a tab to change screen orientation
# [17:29] <timeless> ... and any app can lock screen orientation
# [17:29] <timeless> ... in that case, it's ok for an app to lock screen orientation
# [17:29] <timeless> ... we could make it a stronger recommendation
# [17:29] <timeless> ... assuming cases where it isn't required seems
# [17:30] <timeless> ... but a MUST sounds inappropriate
# [17:30] <timeless> weinig: I disagree
# [17:30] * Joins: sam (osamu@public.cloak)
# [17:30] <timeless> ... especially for a security requirement
# [17:30] <timeless> ... taking control of pieces of the browser UI
# [17:30] <timeless> ... that the user thought the user controlled
# [17:30] <timeless> ... and making it less clear
# [17:30] <timeless> ... makes it easy to fishable
# [17:30] * Joins: TNK (~KIMWOOGLAE@public.cloak)
# [17:30] <timeless> sicking: w/ Safari on iOS, the urlbar scrolls away
# [17:31] <timeless> weinig: that's true, you can get rid of the urlbar
# [17:31] <timeless> ... but you can't control screen orientation
# [17:31] <timeless> sicking: why is that a security issue
# [17:31] <timeless> weinig: it increases the ability to phish
# [17:31] <timeless> ... mocking OS UI
# [17:31] <timeless> mounir: can't you mock this w/o ?
# [17:31] <timeless> weinig: i haven't seen a good example of that
# [17:31] <timeless> ... but if so, i don't see why to lock to fullscreen
# [17:32] <timeless> mounir: the reason to lock to fullscreen is for "annoyance"
# [17:32] <timeless> ... it makes a certain amount of user interaction first
# [17:32] <timeless> ... the other bit is chrome UI
# [17:32] <timeless> ... if you change tabs, and everything starts switching, that's problematic
# [17:32] * Quits: Kumar (~Kumar@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [17:32] <timeless> ... but once tabs start behaving like apps, it's more ok
# [17:32] <timeless> ... we're not doing that for security, but mostly for UI and annoyance
# [17:33] <timeless> weinig: we should probably change the term from Security to Something Else
# [17:33] <timeless> chaals: not probably, but yes
# [17:33] <timeless> ... annoying people is bad design
# [17:33] <timeless> ... the example w/ phish is that you put a 90 degree rotated browser
# [17:33] <timeless> weinig: I take their example
# [17:33] <timeless> ... that you could detect rotation and
# [17:33] <timeless> chaals: i agree that you don't need the MUST
# [17:33] <timeless> weinig: i wouldn't go that far
# [17:34] <timeless> marcosc: I'm recording an issue on this now
# [17:34] <timeless> kenneth_: is it possible for users/something to suppress this?
# [17:34] <timeless> mounir: that's what we do on Chrome Desktop
# [17:34] <timeless> kenneth_: should that be a MUST?
# [17:35] <timeless> mounir: the lock request would fail if that happens
# [17:35] <timeless> ... I don't know how to make it a must
# [17:35] <timeless> ... you have the problem of tablets/laptops
# [17:35] <timeless> ... you might imagine that a tablet could lock screen
# [17:35] <timeless> ... but once you dock, it isn't ok
# [17:35] <timeless> kenneth_: i was just wondering
# [17:35] <timeless> ... in chrome, you can go back in history
# [17:35] <timeless> ... if i do that and orientation changes, that's confusing
# [17:35] <marcosc> filed: https://github.com/w3c/screen-orientation/issues/82
# [17:35] <timeless> ... [Back action]
# [17:36] <timeless> kenneth_: I was on a locked orientation page
# [17:36] <timeless> ... I transition to a page that doesn't have a locked orientation
# [17:36] <timeless> ... and then I click back
# [17:36] <timeless> mounir: doesn't that happen on mobile already?
# [17:36] <timeless> kenneth_: that's what I'm talking about when i click on browser chrome
# [17:37] <timeless> mounir: that's why we don't want it for non fullscreen
# [17:37] <timeless> ... i don't know if it's the role of a spec to make a mandate
# [17:37] <timeless> sicking: in all mobile platforms
# [17:37] <timeless> ... there are things where you bookmark a homepage
# [17:37] <timeless> ... it opens a page in minimal/no chrome
# [17:37] <timeless> ... in that scenario there's no reason not to allow it
# [17:37] <timeless> ... but in some cases there's some chrome
# [17:37] <timeless> ... it can be annoying in that situation
# [17:38] <timeless> ... but in FirefoxOS, we decided if a user moves to the homescreen, the user trusts it
# [17:38] <timeless> ... and allow them to fullscreen/orient
# [17:38] <ArtB> -> https://github.com/w3c/screen-orientation/issues/82 New Screen Orientation issue based on Sam's feedback
# [17:38] <timeless> chaals: Mozilla, any plans
# [17:38] <timeless> sicking: yes
# [17:38] <timeless> chaals: Microsoft?
# [17:38] <timeless> adrianba: I imagine we'll snap to the spec when we get around to it
# [17:38] <timeless> ... i don't know when
# [17:38] <timeless> marcosc: our concern
# [17:39] <timeless> ... we've changed the spec significantly
# [17:39] <timeless> ... if that's ok with you guys
# [17:39] <timeless> chaals: weinig, you expressed concern
# [17:39] <timeless> weinig: we'll give a more detailed response to the spec in email
# [17:39] <timeless> marcosc: mounir said it's already in chrome
# [17:39] <timeless> ... we'll want to update soon
# [17:39] <timeless> ... early feedback is always better
# [17:39] <timeless> weinig: obviously
# [17:39] <timeless> chaals: ArtB wants to know when we're going to LC
# [17:40] <timeless> ... and you have to restart LC if you have issues
# [17:40] <timeless> ... unless we do the new process
# [17:40] <timeless> [ chaals is plugging Process-2014]
# [17:40] <timeless> weinig: we understand you want to move it
# [17:40] <timeless> ... we'll give feedback soon
# [17:40] <timeless> chaals: any more comments/questions?
# [17:40] <timeless> [ Silence ]
# [17:41] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [17:41] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [17:41] * Joins: Zefa (~Zefa@public.cloak)
# [17:41] <timeless> Meeting: WebApps WG F2F
# [17:41] <timeless> topic: Manifest
# [17:41] <marcosc> https://github.com/w3c/manifest/issues
# [17:41] <chaals> s/concern/concern - do you want to give any more detailed info here?
# [17:42] <ArtB> -> http://w3c.github.io/manifest/ Manifest ED
# [17:42] <timeless> marcosc: manifest is moving along
# [17:42] <timeless> ... we're doing it in two phases
# [17:42] <timeless> ... not formally, but...
# [17:42] <timeless> ... a simple v1
# [17:42] <timeless> ... to see what would be needed
# [17:42] <timeless> ... this has since shipped in Chrome Beta on Android
# [17:42] <chaals> q+ to feature creep
# [17:42] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
# [17:42] * anssik marcosc you're not audible
# [17:42] <timeless> ... and I'm implementing the spec in Gecko
# [17:42] <timeless> ... with intent to have it in FirefoxOS at some point
# [17:43] <timeless> ... the spec has
# [17:43] <timeless> ... issues
# [17:43] <timeless> ... there aren't many open issues
# [17:43] <timeless> ... mostly feature requests
# [17:43] <timeless> ... it's really simple
# [17:43] * Joins: jungkees (~uid24208@public.cloak)
# [17:43] <timeless> ... the biggest aspect, are issues in v2
# [17:43] <timeless> ... we need discussion about
# [17:43] <jungkees> Present+ Jungkee_Song
# [17:43] <timeless> ... "what is a web application"
# [17:43] * Joins: skim13 (~skim13@public.cloak)
# [17:43] <timeless> ... "what is the scope of a web application"
# [17:43] <timeless> ... in url space, "what is the scope of a web application"
# [17:43] <timeless> ... how does that work with service workers
# [17:44] <timeless> ... also in coordination w/ WebAppSec WG
# [17:44] * Quits: spoussa (~spoussa@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [17:44] <timeless> ... where can i load the app from, where can I load icons from
# [17:44] <timeless> ... no major issues
# [17:44] <timeless> ... discussions on github page
# [17:44] <timeless> ... everyone's happy
# [17:44] <timeless> ... questions, comments?
# [17:44] <timeless> q?
# [17:44] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
# [17:44] <timeless> ack chaals
# [17:44] <Zakim> chaals, you wanted to feature creep
# [17:44] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [17:44] <timeless> chaals: we regard the inability to internationalize to be an issue, not a feature
# [17:45] <timeless> ... issue #208 / issue #211
# [17:45] <timeless> marcosc: the issues are there
# [17:45] <timeless> ... we're discussing various models
# [17:45] <timeless> ... the approach we're taking
# [17:45] <timeless> ... we need to look at how apps are made today
# [17:45] <timeless> ... you don't have internationalized html elements
# [17:45] <ArtB> -> https://github.com/w3c/manifest/issues/208 Manifest Issue 208
# [17:45] <timeless> ... you don't have a paragraph in english, and then a paragraph in japanse
# [17:45] <ArtB> -> https://github.com/w3c/manifest/issues/211 Manifest Issue 211
# [17:45] <timeless> ... a question of a single page / one for each language
# [17:45] <mounir> q+
# [17:45] * Zakim sees mounir on the speaker queue
# [17:46] <timeless> ... that's the problem space for the
# [17:46] <chaals> q+ to feature creep
# [17:46] * Zakim sees mounir, chaals on the speaker queue
# [17:46] <timeless> kenneth_: the server could return different answers
# [17:46] <timeless> q+
# [17:46] * Zakim sees mounir, chaals, timeless on the speaker queue
# [17:46] <timeless> marcosc: html doesn't do that (multiple languages in a single document)
# [17:46] <timeless> ack mounir
# [17:46] * Zakim sees chaals, timeless on the speaker queue
# [17:46] * Joins: spoussa_ (~uid11139@public.cloak)
# [17:47] <timeless> mounir: manifest v1 goal was feature parity with add-to-homescreen that all browsers were doing
# [17:47] <timeless> ... nearly every mobile platform supported in their own ways
# [17:47] <timeless> ... new meta tags
# [17:47] <timeless> ... that was a mess
# [17:47] <timeless> ... feature parity was the most important goal
# [17:47] <timeless> ... i18n would be the most important next step
# [17:47] <timeless> ... i think we should do that now
# [17:47] <timeless> ... we should iterate from here, instead of the best solution that will never happen in the next decade
# [17:48] <timeless> chaals: i don't think we need to aim for the perfect solution
# [17:48] <timeless> ... we should aim for problematic
# [17:48] <timeless> ... doing as badly as you can do in html isn't a goal
# [17:48] <timeless> ack chaals
# [17:48] <Zakim> chaals, you wanted to feature creep
# [17:48] * Zakim sees timeless on the speaker queue
# [17:48] <timeless> ... another thing that is feature creep
# [17:48] * Joins: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak)
# [17:48] <timeless> ... is a source for updated tags
# [17:48] <timeless> ... in Tableaux, in Yandex, open your screen and get your favorite sites
# [17:48] <timeless> ... you can put your text label
# [17:49] <timeless> ... the widget will go and fetch some data
# [17:49] <timeless> ... update the number of email messages
# [17:49] <timeless> [ examples ]
# [17:49] * Joins: yinagaki (~yinagaki@public.cloak)
# [17:49] <timeless> chaals: this feature is quite common in places
# [17:49] <timeless> marcosc: Speed Dial?
# [17:49] <timeless> chaals: yes
# [17:49] <timeless> ... being able to do that so your application icon shows how many waiting emails
# [17:49] <timeless> [ ... or missed phonecalls ]
# [17:49] <timeless> chaals: url spits back a bit of json
# [17:50] <timeless> ... Opera has something similar
# [17:50] <timeless> ... we'd like to add that
# [17:50] <Claes> q+
# [17:50] * Zakim sees timeless, Claes on the speaker queue
# [17:50] <timeless> ... we'd be happy if you took our api
# [17:50] * Joins: himat (~himat@public.cloak)
# [17:50] <timeless> marcosc: file a feature request
# [17:50] <timeless> ... we can discuss it
# [17:50] <timeless> ack me
# [17:50] * Zakim sees Claes on the speaker queue
# [17:51] <chaals> Josh: SOunded like someone said they didn't see a particular need to have all languages handy, but I did a demo where I asked you to switch, and you may have gone offline. The usecase of switching language offline isn't so unlikely
# [17:51] <timeless> s/chaals/scribe/
# [17:51] <timeless> marcosc: we don't have data about how often this happens
# [17:51] <timeless> ... it might be rare or common
# [17:51] <timeless> ... i don't know
# [17:51] * Parts: Hoyoun (~Hoyoun@public.cloak)
# [17:51] <timeless> mounir: i doubt it's common
# [17:52] <timeless> kenneth_: same problem w/ service worker
# [17:52] <timeless> ... i remember working in Gnome Desktop
# [17:52] <timeless> ... we added i18n
# [17:52] <timeless> ... .desktop files
# [17:52] <timeless> ... it became a problem w/ loading
# [17:52] <timeless> ... it needs to be separate files
# [17:52] <timeless> mounir: isn't there something for json-imports?
# [17:52] <timeless> q?
# [17:52] * Zakim sees Claes on the speaker queue
# [17:52] <timeless> ack Claes
# [17:52] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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# [17:52] <timeless> s/SOunded/Sounded/
# [17:52] <chaals> q+
# [17:52] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
# [17:52] <timeless> Claes: we had a discussion on the CSP field
# [17:52] <timeless> ... trying to understand how it works
# [17:53] <timeless> ... if I want to specify CSP per CSP spec
# [17:53] <timeless> ... can i do that in Manifest?
# [17:53] <timeless> marcosc: you can, not today
# [17:53] <timeless> ... we have a separate spec, we're hoping to fold
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# [17:53] <ArtB> -> http://w3c.github.io/manifest/#content-security-policy Content Security Policy
# [17:53] <timeless> ... you can see Example.com has a CSP policy, and that controls where the manifest is loaded from
# [17:53] <kenneth_> http://w3c.github.io/manifest-csp
# [17:53] <timeless> ... where you can get your icons from
# [17:54] <timeless> ... and where you can load your manifest from
# [17:54] <timeless> ... we're adding,
# [17:54] <timeless> ... a spec anssik is working on
# [17:54] <timeless> ... to add a csp added to the origin/html file
# [17:54] <timeless> ... so you can tighten the policy of the html document
# [17:54] <timeless> Claes: i don't see that here
# [17:54] <timeless> [ Link dropped by kenneth_ ]
# [17:55] <timeless> [ marcosc reads 1.1 Example 1 ]
# [17:55] <timeless> marcosc: you can have one from http, one from meta
# [17:55] <timeless> ... then also from here
# [17:55] <timeless> Claes: thanks
# [17:55] <timeless> marcosc: for people interested in the spec
# [17:55] <timeless> ... should we fold this into the spec proper?
# [17:55] <timeless> ... we can do this for FirefoxOS
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# [17:55] <timeless> kenneth_: for this, we need to fix the URL scope
# [17:55] <timeless> marcosc: yeah
# [17:55] <timeless> ... right now it would apply to just start-url
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# [17:56] <timeless> mounir: don't you have issues
# [17:56] <timeless> ... where manifest is loaded, and then this won't apply?
# [17:56] <timeless> marcosc: yes
# [17:56] <timeless> ... primary case is
# [17:56] <timeless> ... but yeah, we need to solve that
# [17:56] <timeless> ... primary case was for packaged apps
# [17:56] <mounir> s/manifest is loaded/manifest is not loaded/
# [17:56] <timeless> ... not super ideal
# [17:56] <timeless> ... it's why it's sitting outside
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# [17:56] <timeless> ... the main UC is packaged
# [17:56] * kenneth_ anssik want to give your input?
# [17:56] <timeless> ... we need to consider those UCs more fully
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# [17:57] <timeless> ... PhoneGap uses this
# [17:57] <timeless> [ Cordova ]
# [17:57] <timeless> mounir: if we have more and more of this
# [17:57] * anssik I can hardly hear what you guys are discussing, so hard to participate productively ...
# [17:57] <timeless> ... this CSP thing
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# [17:57] <timeless> ... it only works if you load the webapp from the manifest
# [17:57] <timeless> ... in a packaged web app scenario
# [17:57] <timeless> ... or FirefoxOS
# [17:57] <timeless> ... but in normal web browsing scenario
# [17:57] <timeless> ... but the spec is clear that you don't need the manifest
# [17:57] <timeless> ... it has to be done lazily
# [17:58] <timeless> ... which means the CSP rules aren't active
# [17:58] <timeless> ... but if we have more UCs for eager loading of Manifest
# [17:58] <chaals> q?
# [17:58] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
# [17:58] <timeless> ... maybe we could make it happen
# [17:58] <timeless> marcosc: we've been very careful to not put Manifest on the critical path for performance reasons
# [17:58] <timeless> ack chaals
# [17:58] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [17:58] <timeless> chaals: to kenneth_, we understand that for i18n, you could have horrible things
# [17:58] <timeless> ... we have bilingual markets
# [17:58] * darobin Travis, hober: T minus 2 minutes
# [17:59] <timeless> ... Khazakhstan/Ukraine
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# [17:59] <timeless> ... .ua, it would have Khazakh and Russian
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# [17:59] <timeless> marcosc: how does user today select preferred language?
# [17:59] <timeless> chaals: button on page
# [17:59] <timeless> marcosc: why not rewrite the page/url then?
# [18:00] <timeless> ... this is part of a lazy load
# [18:00] <timeless> ... by that point you've made your decision
# [18:00] <timeless> kenneth_: maybe we should have spec text
# [18:00] * Quits: skim13 (~skim13@public.cloak) (skim13)
# [18:00] <timeless> marcosc: curious case of dynamically changing
# [18:00] <timeless> ... if you kicked off a manifest load
# [18:00] <timeless> ... and you change your link-rel
# [18:00] <timeless> ... maybe you need to cancel the manifest and get a new one
# [18:00] <ArtB> -> https://github.com/w3c/manifest/issues/253 The curious case of the vanishing\mutating link element
# [18:00] <timeless> ... I agree, but there are signals from user to web app
# [18:01] <timeless> ... we have pressure from Mozilla
# [18:01] <timeless> ... need to consider UCs
# [18:01] * Quits: HZ_ (~HZ@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [18:01] <timeless> kenneth_: would it help to have base manifest + per language manifest?
# [18:01] <timeless> chaals: sort of a pain in the butt
# [18:01] <timeless> ... one model in the issue is a fairly lightweight approach
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# [18:01] <timeless> ... names+icons
# [18:01] <darobin> --- HTML 5 is a REC --- :)
# [18:01] <timeless> ... lazily do it
# [18:01] * timeless darobin ? really
# [18:01] * ArtB is having having flashbacks about Widget Internationalization ;-)
# [18:01] <timeless> ... do it only for locales
# [18:01] <adrianba> q?
# [18:01] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:01] * timeless too
# [18:01] * marcosc hits ArtB
# [18:02] <timeless> ... having to do this as 2 lines is better than 6
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# [18:02] <timeless> ... but thousands of lines will be bad
# [18:02] <timeless> marcosc: requests i have is scope creep
# [18:02] <timeless> ... but then define languages the app supports
# [18:02] <timeless> ... then the data isn't complete
# [18:02] <timeless> ... what does it mean
# [18:02] <timeless> chaals: you don't need to list them, just look through the JSON
# [18:02] <timeless> ... i'm arguing for a dual model
# [18:03] <timeless> ... we have yandex.ua, yandex.kz, yandex.ru
# [18:03] <sicking> q+
# [18:03] * Zakim sees sicking on the speaker queue
# [18:03] <timeless> ... they have the appropriate languages for those locales built in
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# [18:03] <timeless> ... we probably wouldn't include Turkish in the Ukrainian Manifest
# [18:03] * ArtB wonders what W3C Memes hober and darobin are creating now ;)
# [18:03] <timeless> kenneth_: can't you just generate the manifest?
# [18:03] <timeless> ack sicking
# [18:03] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:03] <timeless> sicking: i agree there's a need to be able to upload multiple languages in the same thing
# [18:04] <timeless> ... i don't think we should solve client side localization for the web
# [18:04] <timeless> ... in it
# [18:04] <timeless> ... Mozilla has done complicated localization investigation
# [18:04] * darobin timeless, yup, really
# [18:04] <timeless> ... Plural
# [18:04] * timeless congrats
# [18:04] <timeless> ... Gender
# [18:04] * darobin ta
# [18:04] <timeless> ... 2, 3 count
# [18:04] * chaals plurals in russian ;)
# [18:04] <timeless> ... this becomes very hairy
# [18:04] <adrianba> q+ Kevin_Hill
# [18:04] * Zakim sees Kevin_Hill on the speaker queue
# [18:04] * timeless 0 is fun too
# [18:04] <timeless> ... we've researched for years
# [18:04] <timeless> ... we've done localization for manifest
# [18:05] <timeless> ... i don't know if it's used at all
# [18:05] <timeless> ... it's so lacking in capabilities
# [18:05] <timeless> mounir: why do you need that if you're just localizing the title
# [18:05] <timeless> ... i assume it's just the fields in the app title
# [18:05] <timeless> chaals: name and icon
# [18:05] <timeless> ... no need for count/gender
# [18:05] <timeless> ... marcosc says "please don't use the clunky FirefoxOS model"
# [18:06] <timeless> ... i'm sympathetic to "let's not create the ultimate client localization thing in manifest"
# [18:06] <timeless> sicking: is it worth doing something really crappy
# [18:06] * Quits: Shige (~Shige@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:06] <timeless> ... i'd rather people work on how to do client side localization
# [18:06] <timeless> ... i don't see w3c working on it
# [18:06] <timeless> ... i'd love someone to do it
# [18:06] <timeless> chaals: action sicking to write it up?
# [18:06] <timeless> [ laughter ]
# [18:06] <timeless> q?
# [18:06] * Zakim sees Kevin_Hill on the speaker queue
# [18:06] <timeless> ack Kevin_Hill
# [18:06] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:06] <timeless> Kevin_Hill: for l10n discussion
# [18:07] <timeless> ... I'd hate to see localizing the app
# [18:07] <timeless> ... i could see localizing Offline
# [18:07] <timeless> ... and basic fields
# [18:07] <timeless> chaals: absolutely
# [18:07] <timeless> ... i don't think anyone is suggesting that
# [18:07] <timeless> ... other things you want feedback on?
# [18:07] <timeless> ... or other feedback people want to give you?
# [18:07] <timeless> marcosc: we need to
# [18:07] <timeless> ... what we have here
# [18:07] <timeless> ... doesn't let you define
# [18:08] <timeless> ... all the things you need to make a web app you can take offline
# [18:08] <timeless> ... / install locally
# [18:08] <timeless> ... we need to have that discussion
# [18:08] <timeless> ... we need the right people in the room
# [18:08] <timeless> ... we need to work out scope issue
# [18:08] <timeless> ... -- the biggest blocker
# [18:08] <timeless> ... how it relates to ServiceWorkers (SW)
# [18:08] <timeless> ... it lets you relate to homescreen
# [18:08] <timeless> ... the bits that are there, it's pretty cool
# [18:08] <timeless> ... Chrome/FirefoxOS
# [18:08] <timeless> mounir: the next big thing is Scope/SW Scope
# [18:09] <timeless> ... we need Manifest and SW define Scopes [compatibly]
# [18:09] <timeless> ... maybe Manifest defines Scope and SW uses it
# [18:09] <timeless> chaals: i agree modular i18n, it's nice/small/handy
# [18:09] <timeless> ... let's try to get it shipped
# [18:09] <timeless> ... before we boil the ocean
# [18:09] <timeless> ... we can do that in v1.1
# [18:09] <timeless> marcosc: we need to have these discussions
# [18:09] <timeless> ... come talk to us this week
# [18:09] <timeless> ... we have time
# [18:10] <timeless> chaals: i'd invite you to talk to those guys directly
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# [18:10] <timeless> ... on our side, they're in Russia and Ukraine
# [18:10] <timeless> marcosc: i put some ideas
# [18:10] <jhund> just added my comments on loc to https://github.com/w3c/manifest/issues/211
# [18:10] <timeless> ... worth having a look at that
# [18:10] <timeless> chaals: any more on this?
# [18:10] <timeless> q?
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# [18:11] <timeless> Topic: Permissions API
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# [18:11] <timeless> [ Break until 11am ]
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# [18:11] <Zakim> -Olli_Pettay
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# [18:12] <timeless> [ chaals searches for a Chair ... since everyone with Chair experience is going to the AC meeting ]
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# [18:13] <timeless> chaals: ok, marcosc will chair
# [18:13] <Zakim> -anssik
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# [18:15] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft mintues
# [18:15] <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'draft mintues', timeless. Try /msg RRSAgent help
# [18:15] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [18:15] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-webapps-minutes.html timeless
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# [18:16] <Zakim> -Laszlo
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# [18:19] <ArtB> Present+ Robin_Berjon, Ali_Alabbas, Benjamin_Poulain, Bryan_Sullivan, Dan_Appelquist, Ted_Oconnor, Joerg_Heuer, Marcos_Caceres, Mounir_Lamouri, Sam_Ruby, Shijun_Sun, Stephan_Steglich, Travis_Leithead, Kevin_Hill
# [18:20] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [18:20] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
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# [18:59] <Zakim> +Laszlo
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# [19:01] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [19:01] <smaug> Zakim, [IPcaller] is Olli_Pettay
# [19:01] <Zakim> +Olli_Pettay; got it
# [19:01] <smaug> Zakim, nick smaug is Olli_Pettay
# [19:01] <Zakim> ok, smaug, I now associate you with Olli_Pettay
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# [19:07] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
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# [19:07] <anssik> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
# [19:07] <Zakim> +anssik; got it
# [19:08] <Travis> scribe: Travis
# [19:08] <Travis> scribeNick: Travis
# [19:08] <Travis> Topic: Permissions API
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# [19:09] <Travis> q?
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# [19:09] <mounir> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2014JulSep/0389.html
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# [19:10] <Travis> mounir: It is very simple.
# [19:10] <Travis> ... whether to know if a site has access to a specific permission.
# [19:10] * Quits: Cyril (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [19:10] <Travis> ... [describes the API shape]
# [19:11] <Travis> ... Many API defintions require permission and try to abstract the permissions--creates a poor user experience.
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# [19:11] <Travis> ... many developers will try to find workarounds.
# [19:11] <Travis> ... WebRTC is an example.
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# [19:12] <Travis> ... Abstracting permission status for website worked well when sites used new features but not often.
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# [19:12] * npdoty regrets, I need to be in geolocation right now, while I would otherwise really like to be a part of your permission discussion.
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# [19:12] <Travis> ... now it's more common. Cite: hangouts needs WebRTC (it's required)
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# [19:12] <Travis> ... Issues: Should we have a specific permissions API or add permissions to every API that needs it.
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# [19:13] <Travis> richt: If I've never been to the site, I don't know if I have permission (obviously).
# [19:14] <Travis> ... if I just store something like a cookie, why isn't that sufficient?
# [19:14] * timeless npdoty: you aren't alone in missing, but i'm sure you'll be missed :)
# [19:14] <Travis> mounir: That seems hacky.
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# [19:14] <timeless> Zakim, timeless has left Portland
# [19:14] <Zakim> -timeless; got it
# [19:14] <Travis> ... There could be an issue if you inject adds.
# [19:14] <Travis> ... They could just use your permission if they find your cookie. It's a security issue.
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# [19:14] <Travis> richt: This can be solved...
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# [19:15] <Travis> mounir: you inject a script in your own origin. If you put your token in local storage they can just read it.
# [19:15] <Travis> richt: any idea on how to solve the security issue.
# [19:15] <Travis> marcosc: well, you know the effective script origin... you could block it.
# [19:16] <Travis> ... on IOS it tells you if some app is using something in the background--you can detect and control it.
# [19:16] <Travis> ... You could move it to the server, or try to prevent on the client.
# [19:16] <Travis> richt: in GUM, I could just set a flag and read it when I come back...
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# [19:17] <Travis> marcosc: You should be able to clear permissions separately from cookies, etc.
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# [19:17] <Travis> mounir: Cookies is not really the right solution to the problem.
# [19:17] <Travis> ... another solution is to sandbox the ad-injection.
# [19:17] <Travis> q?
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# [19:17] <mounir> q?
# [19:17] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:18] <Travis> marcosc: We talked a bit about use-cases. Was there an idea about being able to group permissions?
# [19:18] <Travis> ... example: I need geo and camera access. How does that work.
# [19:18] <Travis> ?
# [19:18] <Travis> mounir: something that is planned: permissionchanged event.
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# [19:18] <Travis> ... there was a sec permission meeting in paris: they discussed this API
# [19:19] <Travis> ... in WebRTC context, you don't have camera, but do have mic.
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# [19:19] <Travis> ... camera icon could be enabled/disabled based on permission status.
# [19:19] <Travis> ... as soon as you are allowed to read permission status, you are allowed to track it.
# [19:19] <Travis> mounir: Any implementer feedback?
# [19:20] <Travis> sicking: I think this looks good
# [19:20] <Travis> marcosc: any concern about this?
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# [19:20] <Travis> sicking: no. It's syntax. It doesn't really matter where it lives.
# [19:21] <Travis> ShijunS: Suggest take topic to WebRTC meeting for feedback
# [19:21] <Travis> ... there is no "middle" layer in WebRTC
# [19:21] <Travis> sicking: Well, that doesn't change anything...
# [19:21] <Travis> ... site could add nav.permission.has('camera') and it would know whether it would succeed or not.
# [19:22] <Travis> ... many sites want to be aware before the implementation would throw a permission prompt to the user.
# [19:23] <Travis> ShijunS: Scenario: visit a page, then navigate back. It doesn't necessarily mean the user wants to automatically grant permission.
# [19:23] <Travis> marcosc: What would you folks like to see? More than what we have here?
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# [19:23] <Travis> ShijunS: Can work through offline before talking to WebRTC.
# [19:24] <Travis> mounir: I will circulate more widely. Web Apps may not take this (scope question). Perhaps it will go to webappsec?
# [19:24] <Travis> ??: Would it apply to packaged apps?
# [19:25] <Travis> mounir: packaged apps may be out-of-scope.
# [19:25] <Travis> sicking: I see no reason why it wouldn't work. You can use this to ask for permission, just to check for position.
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# [19:25] <Travis> mounir: depends on how your packaged apps work. Perhaps you don't want to allow this for your packaged apps.
# [19:26] <Travis> richt: Let's say I ask, and get a 'denied'. Now my app has to tell the user how enable permission (there's no way to be re-prompted)
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# [19:26] <Travis> marcosc: If you could re-request it, that might work...
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# [19:27] <Travis> mounir: Our data shows that people that deny really mean it. Otherwise they ignore it.
# [19:27] <adrianba> q+
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# [19:27] <Travis> mounir: In many browsers, there's a third option (just ignore it)
# [19:27] <Travis> richt: I'm talking about the iOS shortcut into the apps permission settings.
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# [19:28] <Travis> mounir: If you say no, it means no/never. This is a UA specific problem (about UX)
# [19:28] <Travis> ... I expect it will change in the future.
# [19:28] <Travis> richt: My point is that its very hard to undo a permission reject.
# [19:28] <npdoty_> q?
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# [19:28] <npdoty_> ack adrianba
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# [19:28] <Travis> adrianba: I agree with Rich. I think that this is a problem.
# [19:29] <Travis> ... If I visit a site, and wasn't expecting a prompt and now I click on no-never, then I'm stuck.
# [19:29] <Travis> ... another example: facebook asking for location. But then I change my mind... how do I (as the developer) do that?
# [19:29] <Travis> ... Does the app do the query?
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# [19:30] <sicking> q+
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# [19:30] <Travis> ... Does the app have to have a database of the 1000's of mobile devices and show the user how to disable/enable.
# [19:30] <Travis> ... Perhaps a time-based model--if you just asked 5 minutes ago, don't re-prompt, if its been a year, maybe re-ask.
# [19:31] <Travis> ... the point of the API is to not show he prompt if its rejected. There's nothing for the UA to do here.
# [19:32] <Travis> sicking: I also agree that this is a problem--not necessarily with this API. It's not in the 'has' request--it's in the asking (say in Geoloc.)
# [19:32] <npdoty_> sicking proposes iReallyReallyMeanIt parameter
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# [19:32] * Yves nick :)
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# [19:33] <Travis> mounir: I think Ade meant that with this API folks wouldn't even bother asking. Whereas before they might ask again because they wouldn't know.
# [19:33] <Travis> ... I think we may be able to solve that problem later.
# [19:33] <Travis> richt: 1st step: accept that there is a problem
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# [19:34] <Travis> mounir: Agree, it is a problem. I don't know the # of people who deny, but I think it's soo low, it's practically no one.
# [19:34] <Travis> ... Basically, there's just one guy who presses deny.
# [19:34] <Travis> ... it's not an even distribution.
# [19:34] <Travis> richt: I also have some data (it's different than your data)
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# [19:35] <Travis> mounir: 90% of folks are saying "i don't know"
# [19:35] <Travis> ... adding something to Geolocation for "I really really need this permission"--> then everyone will use that!
# [19:35] <Travis> ... now my problem is explaining how to undo that.
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# [19:35] <Travis> ... it would be great if users could access the permissions to review/change the permissions.
# [19:36] <Travis> ... rather than having each UA explain the process.
# [19:37] <Travis> mounir: I think it's a bad idea to have a way to access Chrome settings.
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# [19:37] <Travis> adrianba: I agree we don't have to do this immediately.
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# [19:37] <Travis> ... Like Jonas' point, it's interesting to have the 'no I really need it' that could be called after a deny.
# [19:38] <sicking> q+
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# [19:38] <Travis> ... and if you did have such a centralized method, what would it do? Maybe taking the user to the settings would be OK?
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# [19:39] <Travis> mounir: The 'i really mean it' means that they would ask for permission after they were denied, right? Seems not very useful at that point, because you have to trust the website...
# [19:39] <Travis> sicking: You could treat the has() to a call to the underlying API...
# [19:39] <Travis> Kevin_Hill: I'm probably that one guy clicking deny.
# [19:40] <npdoty> if we treat has() as a call to the API, that sounds a lot like the current situation (with geolocation at least), and has some advantages
# [19:40] <Travis> ... If the site says it can't provide the experience.
# [19:40] <Travis> ... The time factor is pretty important.
# [19:40] <Travis> ... It's not a yes/no decision for all time.
# [19:40] <npdoty> q+
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# [19:41] <Travis> mounir: I don't think the API is going against that. It's a decision the browser has to make for its user.
# [19:41] <mounir> q?
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# [19:41] <Travis> ??: If I denied something, maybe I just want to be reminded that I denied and want to be reminded.
# [19:41] <npdoty> that's often how popup blockers work
# [19:42] <npdoty> s/??/Joannes/
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# [19:42] <Travis> richt: Lots of browsers do provide that... icon next to the URL--but browsers all do this differently.
# [19:42] <Travis> .. would be nice to point the user to the same place across devices. Can be done in a couple of clicks.
# [19:43] <mounir> ack sicking
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# [19:43] <mounir> ack npdoty
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# [19:43] <Travis> npdoty: Came late... treating the has() call to a call to the underlying API.
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# [19:43] <Travis> ... current way this is done: by calling the geolocation directly and getting a callback. It's easier for the UA to decide based on heuristics.
# [19:43] <Travis> ... at least for a while on iOS/Safari, it wouldn't deny forever; at least for 24 hours.
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# [19:44] <Travis> ... Another advantage: it requires some cost. It may have to show something to the user.
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# [19:45] <Travis> ... if you could determine whether someone else had asked, you could avoid the call. Many sites are conscious about being the source of a permission prompt.
# [19:45] <Travis> marcosc: We could track the effective origin of the call to the permission access and make a decision based on that.
# [19:46] <Travis> npdoty: It's been hard to do that tainting.
# [19:46] <Travis> ... It's hard to be sure.
# [19:46] <Travis> marcosc: next steps?
# [19:46] <Travis> mounir: I started writing an official draft; not done yet, but soon.
# [19:46] <Travis> ... need implemation feedback. We have some security issues. Clear Apple is not supporting.
# [19:46] <npdoty> mounir: because an embedded script can create a new script element on the page, and that script element will have the effective origin of the host page
# [19:47] <Travis> ... in Chrome we are interested in implementing by EOY, but not shipping. We want something experimental and to know if it can ship next year.
# [19:47] <npdoty> q+ to remind about use cases
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# [19:47] <Travis> mounir: Finding a home for this is important. Probably webappsec. DAP also volunteered to host.
# [19:48] <mounir> ack npdoty
# [19:48] <Zakim> npdoty, you wanted to remind about use cases
# [19:48] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:49] <Travis> npdoty: If we could document the use cases (a concise list) of things we want to fix, and perhaps we can explore an alternate proposal? Seems like DAP had a permission spec a while ago...
# [19:49] <lgombos> link to DAP spec that i also helped to edit - http://dev.w3.org/2009/dap/perms/FeaturePermissions.html
# [19:49] <Travis> mounir: Not a big fan of solving use cases one-by-one. Will create a mess.
# [19:50] <Travis> ... we should definitely solve privacy issues.
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# [19:51] <Travis> npdoty: [not an expert] effective script origin is hard.
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# [19:51] <Travis> mounir: The origin-mixing problem just makes it very hard to safely ask permissions.
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# [19:52] <Travis> marcosc: The tracking may not be a bad practice for some sites...they may want to collect this data!
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# [19:52] <npdoty> yes, I would like if we could move away from ever embedding scripts from another origin in the same browsing context, but I think we're a long, long way from that
# [19:53] <Travis> marcosc: The assumption that the web will be locked down by CSP may contradict some business goals.
# [19:53] <npdoty> that there are other security issues currently is not a reason to ignore new privacy/security issues we might introduce.
# [19:53] <Travis> marcosc: Any final thoughts/comments?
# [19:53] <Travis> ... no?
# [19:53] <Travis> ... that's a wrap.
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# [19:54] <Yves> lunch break
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# [20:17] <timeless> s/adds/ads/
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# [20:17] <timeless> s/IOS/iOS/
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# [20:59] <Zakim> + +1.781.428.aabb
# [20:59] <timeless> Zakim, where is 781?
# [20:59] <Zakim> North American dialing code 1.781 is Massachusetts
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# [20:59] <timeless> Zakim, aabb is lgombos
# [20:59] <Zakim> +lgombos; got it
# [21:00] <timeless> Zakim, lgombos is Laszlo
# [21:00] <Zakim> +Laszlo; got it
# [21:00] * timeless shrugs, whichever
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# [21:15] <Zakim> -Laszlo
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# [21:17] <ArtB> scribenick: ArtB
# [21:17] <ArtB> Topic: SysApps specifications
# [21:17] <ArtB> -> http://www.w3.org/2012/sysapps/#roadmap SysApps Spec Roadmap
# [21:18] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [21:18] <anssik> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
# [21:18] <Zakim> +anssik; got it
# [21:18] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [21:18] <lgombos> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
# [21:19] <Zakim> +lgombos; got it
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# [21:19] <ArtB> zakim, who's here?
# [21:19] <Zakim> On the phone I see Portland, anssik, lgombos
# [21:19] <Zakim> Portland has chaals, ArtB, Yves, sicking
# [21:19] <Zakim> On IRC I see rniwa, myakura, Zefa, lgombos, sam, ArtB, tomoyuki, jhund, jrossi, glenn, darobin, gludi|2, chaals, jsbell_, spoussa_, jungkees, bkardell_, kenneth_, anssik, RRSAgent,
# [21:19] <Zakim> ... bryan, Zakim, smaug, kochi1, kochi, paul___irish, mihnea_____, MarkS, plinss, marcosc_, tyoshino, igrigorik, stryx`_, stryx`, MikeSmith, hober, slightlyoff, tobie, astearns,
# [21:19] <Zakim> ... cwilso, timeless, scheib, hayato_, krit, cabanier, jsbell, mkwst___, Domenic, FerasM__, dcooney___, pdr__, Hixie, richt, skddc, renoirb, krijnhoetmer, gavin, schuki, panzana`
# [21:20] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@public.cloak)
# [21:20] * rniwa is still observing WebPerf WG
# [21:21] <ArtB> AB: this is informational session re SysApps WG
# [21:21] * Joins: brendaneich (~brendaneich1@public.cloak)
# [21:21] <ArtB> MC: my personal observation is that most of SysApps specs are not progressing very well
# [21:21] * Joins: npdoty (npdoty@public.cloak)
# [21:21] <ArtB> … the group is starting the process of rechartering
# [21:21] <ArtB> … Mozilla is thinking about if it still wants to be part of SysApps
# [21:22] * Joins: adrianba (~adrianba@public.cloak)
# [21:22] <ArtB> … We see value in at least 2 of SysApps' APIS
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# [21:22] <ArtB> … Task Scheduler and TCP UDP Sockets
# [21:22] <ArtB> … We would like to test the water, so to speak, to see if these could fit into WebApps' charter
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# [21:22] <ArtB> ML: I agree with Marcos
# [21:23] <ArtB> … there is also Background Sync on GH
# [21:23] <ArtB> … I don't think that is within a WG yet
# [21:23] <ArtB> … but it is something to consider too
# [21:23] <ArtB> … so those 3 specs
# [21:23] <ArtB> JS: think Scheduler is a good fit
# [21:23] <ArtB> … not sure about Task Scheduler
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# [21:24] <ArtB> … uses a security model that is not consistent with the Web
# [21:24] <ArtB> … thus I think that will be problematic
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# [21:24] <ArtB> LG: Samsung is editor of Task Scheduler
# [21:24] <ArtB> … we recently made some updates
# [21:24] <ArtB> … part of the lack of progress is the Service Worker dependency
# [21:25] <ArtB> … but that is becoming resolved
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# [21:25] <ArtB> … so I think Task Scheduler can now progress
# [21:25] <ArtB> … want it to progress regardless of where the spec "live"
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# [21:25] <ArtB> … would like to get more feedback
# [21:25] <Claes> q+
# [21:25] * Zakim sees Claes on the speaker queue
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# [21:26] <ArtB> AB: perhaps someone from SysApps can ask WebApps to review the specs?
# [21:26] <ArtB> CN: re the TCP UDP Sockets spec
# [21:27] <ArtB> … this API can't be exposed to any web site because of sensitivity
# [21:27] <ArtB> … the sec model can't be solved here
# [21:27] <anssik> http://www.w3.org/2012/sysapps/tcp-udp-sockets/#security-and-privacy-considerations
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# [21:27] * sicking_ is now known as sicking
# [21:27] <ArtB> … hosted web app sec model needs work
# [21:27] <ArtB> … to reuse the Web's security model
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# [21:27] <ArtB> … re the API itself, provides interfaces to UDP and TCP sockets
# [21:28] <ArtB> … within the last month I have re-written the spec to use WHATWG's Streams spec
# [21:28] <ArtB> … the API is now mostly complete
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# [21:28] <ArtB> … still needs work on secure Web sockets
# [21:28] <ArtB> … need to also add support for TLS
# [21:28] <spoussa_> q+
# [21:28] * Zakim sees Claes, spoussa_ on the speaker queue
# [21:29] <ArtB> SP: we have implemented quite a few of SysApps' specs
# [21:29] <ArtB> … mostly experimental in Tizen but also some Android versions too
# [21:29] <ArtB> … App URI implemented by us
# [21:30] <ArtB> MC: if we have >=2 impls, then by all means we should move them forward
# [21:30] <ArtB> … but if we don't should drop them
# [21:30] <ArtB> … we need to discuss this in SysApps
# [21:30] <Claes> q+
# [21:30] * Zakim sees Claes, spoussa_ on the speaker queue
# [21:31] <ArtB> … for App URI the test suite is complete
# [21:31] <spoussa_> q-
# [21:31] * Zakim sees Claes on the speaker queue
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# [21:31] <ArtB> CL: re SysApps deliverables, there is a Phase 1 list and a Phase 2 list
# [21:31] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [21:31] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [21:32] <ArtB> … high on the priority list is Media Storage
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# [21:32] <ArtB> … we are implementing it on Chromium Android
# [21:32] <ArtB> … will ask SysApps this week to take that on
# [21:32] <MikeSmith> q+ to comment
# [21:32] * Zakim sees Claes, MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [21:32] <ArtB> ML: during SysApps' meeting, a topic is what could be moved to WebApps
# [21:33] <anssik> q+ to gauge interest in moving some of the experimental SysApps work (that do not fit into WebApps' scope) back to the incubation phase into a "SysApps Community Group"
# [21:33] * Zakim sees Claes, MikeSmith, anssik on the speaker queue
# [21:33] <Claes> ack me
# [21:33] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, anssik on the speaker queue
# [21:33] <ArtB> MS: I don't think Media Storage is web safe
# [21:33] <ArtB> … I think the only specs that could move to WebApps are those specs that use Web security model
# [21:34] <ArtB> … SysApps' original charter assumes Adam Barth was going to write Security Model spec for these classes of apps and a Runtime spec
# [21:34] <ArtB> … that didn't happen and isn't going to happen
# [21:35] <spoussa_> q
# [21:35] <ArtB> … therefore, these specs would need to be refactored to fit into the Web sec model
# [21:35] <ArtB> … don't think we want to WGs specifying Web APIs
# [21:35] <spoussa_> q?
# [21:35] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, anssik on the speaker queue
# [21:35] <ArtB> JS: the Sockets API isn't clear how to expose to Web apps
# [21:35] <ArtB> … we learned alot, v-a-v FirefoxOS re runtime sec models
# [21:36] <MikeSmith> ack MikeSmith
# [21:36] <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to comment
# [21:36] * Zakim sees anssik on the speaker queue
# [21:36] <ArtB> … want to make things as Web like as possible with only minor changes
# [21:36] <ArtB> … f.ex. some events
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# [21:36] <ArtB> … We don't want and diffs
# [21:37] <ArtB> … My hope is that what Adam had envisoned isn't actually needed
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# [21:37] <ArtB> MS: unless there is a compelling reason, think all Web APIS should be moved to WebApps
# [21:37] <ArtB> MS: SysApps wants to drop specs
# [21:38] <ArtB> MC: for all specs with 2 or more impls, we want those to advance
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# [21:38] <ArtB> AK: I want to poll people at the meeting about moving more experimental work back to the incubation phase
# [21:38] <ArtB> … WG is not appropriate place for incubation
# [21:39] <ArtB> … Is there interest in moving some of SysApps' specs in a less formal setting
# [21:39] <ArtB> … f.ex. a Comm Group
# [21:39] <ArtB> MC: that's already happening with Bluetooth
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# [21:39] <ArtB> AK: true; but what about some others and is a new CG the best way
# [21:40] <ArtB> … if/when SysApps closes, useful bits should be redirected
# [21:40] <ArtB> MC: I think that should happen by market pressure
# [21:40] <ArtB> … don't want to create a CG unless there is some critical mass to move a spec forward
# [21:40] <ArtB> … that's what's happening with BT CG
# [21:40] <ArtB> AK: there could be some other specs to move
# [21:40] <ArtB> … and advance them
# [21:41] <ArtB> … if something has already been published, an issue is how to relicense the spec
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# [21:41] <ArtB> … Chairs need to start discussions about those
# [21:41] <ArtB> MC: we also need to get Legal advice
# [21:41] <ArtB> ML: Chairs are OK to do that
# [21:41] <ArtB> AK: want to get the widest participation
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# [21:42] <ArtB> … Manifest was one that already moved to WebApps
# [21:42] <ArtB> … Could be some other candidates
# [21:42] <ArtB> … f.ex. Raw sockets and Task Scheduler could go the same way
# [21:42] <lgombos> q+
# [21:42] * Zakim sees anssik, lgombos on the speaker queue
# [21:42] <ArtB> q?
# [21:42] * Zakim sees anssik, lgombos on the speaker queue
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# [21:42] <MikeSmith> ack anssik
# [21:42] <Zakim> anssik, you wanted to gauge interest in moving some of the experimental SysApps work (that do not fit into WebApps' scope) back to the incubation phase into a "SysApps Community
# [21:42] <Zakim> ... Group"
# [21:42] * Zakim sees lgombos on the speaker queue
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# [21:43] <ArtB> LG: we should not speculate here what SysApps will do
# [21:43] <ArtB> … but would be good to get some WebApps feedback
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# [21:44] <spoussa_> q?
# [21:44] * Zakim sees lgombos on the speaker queue
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# [21:44] <ArtB> AB: seems like SysApps should decide what it wants to move forward and then ask WebApps about their interest in taking them
# [21:44] <ArtB> LG: that sounds fine
# [21:44] <ArtB> ack lgombos
# [21:44] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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# [21:45] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [21:45] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
# [21:45] <Zakim> -anssik
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# [21:45] * ArtB waves to anssik; thanks for joining!
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# [21:46] * anssik ArtB thanks for chairing, and celebrate the v5 pub responsibly ;-)
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# [21:48] <dka> Intersting URL Factoid
# [21:48] <dka> Will.i.am’s name is also a URL.
# [21:48] <dka> In the future, all names will also be URLs.
# [21:48] <dka> So we’d better get this right.
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# [21:50] * bkardell_ mind blown... is will.i.am https or http?
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# [21:50] <rubys> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-appsawg-uri-scheme-reg-04
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# [21:53] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [21:54] <smaug> Zakim, [IPcaller] is Olli_Pettay
# [21:54] <Zakim> +Olli_Pettay; got it
# [21:54] <smaug> Zakim, nick smaug is Olli_Pettay
# [21:54] <Zakim> ok, smaug, I now associate you with Olli_Pettay
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# [22:02] <ArtB> Topic: URL
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# [22:02] <Travis> scribe: Travis
# [22:02] <ArtB> ScribeNick: travis
# [22:02] <Travis> scribeNick: Travis
# [22:02] <ArtB> Scribe+ ArtB, Travis
# [22:03] <Travis> MikeSmith: We are gathered here together... to talk URL
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# [22:03] <Travis> ... There was objection that URLs were being specified in HTML.
# [22:03] <dka> @brkadell_ looks like it’s just http.
# [22:03] <Travis> ... Adam Barth wrote a draft in IETF then lost interest.
# [22:03] <ArtB> -> https://url.spec.whatwg.org/ WHAT WG URL spec
# [22:03] <Travis> ... Larry become interested in an update to IRI
# [22:04] <Travis> ... it was rechartered. They didn't make much progress [ correction] "nothing was done" (by me)
# [22:04] <Travis> ... We still needed a spec for URLs.
# [22:04] <Travis> ... Anne went ahead and wrote a spec for URLs
# [22:04] <Travis> ... And now we're done.
# [22:05] <Travis> ... Ok. Maybe not.
# [22:05] <Travis> ... Some folks aren't happy with Anne's spec.
# [22:05] <ArtB> q?
# [22:05] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [22:05] <Travis> ... Suggested we create a spec that we can be happy with.
# [22:05] <Travis> ... rubys is taking a closer look at test results of URLs
# [22:05] <Travis> rubys: Will be pasted some links
# [22:06] <rubys> https://url.spec.whatwg.org/#url-writing
# [22:06] <Travis> s/pasted/pasting
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# [22:06] <Travis> rubys: This is the living standard. A scheme must be registered... (not done)
# [22:06] <dka> relevant to the discussion, a TAG resolution taken on 1-october of this year on this topic: “We welcome present and future moves of the WHATWG to move toward a process which adheres to the openstand principles, and we note that in the case of URL spec, there has been a lot of cross talk, input from other groups, and a Bugzilla and GitHub-based process allows an openness to input which is valuable. In principle there is no barrier to W3C documents referencing[CUT]
# [22:06] <dka> documents normatively. In the specific case of URL being referenced from HTML5, we would prefer that the W3C HTML5 spec should reference the WHATWG URL specification and that between W3C and WHATWG we should continue to resolve any remaining technical and editorial issues in the spec.”
# [22:06] <rubys> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-appsawg-uri-scheme-reg-04
# [22:06] <Travis> ... It is obvious that more work needs to be done.
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# [22:07] <Travis> ... This defines how you register new things. It references the work being done in URL and vice-versa.
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# [22:07] <Travis> ... Seems like they could link to one another. Progress?
# [22:08] <mnot> q+
# [22:08] * Zakim sees mnot on the speaker queue
# [22:08] <Travis> Larry: Timing is right to review this new process document.
# [22:08] <Travis> ... goal is to make it easier.
# [22:08] <Travis> ... There is provisional and permanent.
# [22:08] <Travis> ... Permanent is expert reivew
# [22:08] <ArtB> -> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-appsawg-uri-scheme-reg-04 Guidelines and Registration Procedures for URI Schemes
# [22:08] <ArtB> draft-ietf-appsawg-uri-scheme-reg-04
# [22:08] <ArtB> q?
# [22:08] * Zakim sees mnot on the speaker queue
# [22:08] <Travis> ... Provision is more lenient
# [22:08] <Travis> ... Time is right to look this over and review.
# [22:08] <ArtB> ack mnot
# [22:08] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [22:09] <ArtB> q?
# [22:09] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [22:09] <Travis> markN: We talked about this back in London.
# [22:09] <Travis> ... It appears a unanimous decision was not to have competing specs in WHATWG and W3C.
# [22:10] <ArtB> q?
# [22:10] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [22:10] <Travis> ... Way forward was to use W3C process to move forward.
# [22:10] <rubys> q+
# [22:10] * Zakim sees rubys on the speaker queue
# [22:10] <Travis> Dan: Resolution is specifically about URL and for this case.
# [22:10] <Travis> ... It's being developed with good intentions by Anne.
# [22:11] * Joins: npdoty (npdoty@public.cloak)
# [22:11] <Travis> ... We were happy to recommend the reference to the WHATWG spec.
# [22:11] <Travis> ... I take issue with the W3C spec as a copy. I see it as a reprint.
# [22:12] <Travis> marcosc: Director makes a decision and was part of the decision.
# [22:12] <Yves> not using his director's hat
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# [22:12] <Travis> rubys: I'm not interested in that discussion. I'm interested in the technical work.
# [22:12] <Travis> ... I do want an opportunity to discuss the technical work
# [22:12] <ArtB> ack rubys
# [22:12] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [22:12] <Travis> ... [clapping]
# [22:12] <ArtB> q+ Marcos, Larry
# [22:12] * Zakim sees Marcos, Larry on the speaker queue
# [22:12] <rubys> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25946
# [22:13] <ArtB> ack Marcos
# [22:13] * Zakim sees Larry on the speaker queue
# [22:13] <ArtB> ack Larry
# [22:13] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [22:13] <Travis> ... This bug was filed by Anne. "Rewrite the URL parser"
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# [22:13] <mnot> q+
# [22:13] * Zakim sees mnot on the speaker queue
# [22:14] <rubys> http://intertwingly.net/projects/pegurl/url.html#url
# [22:14] <Travis> ... He found a RUST based implementation and thought he might be able to port.
# [22:14] <Travis> ... Now, I have done some work to grammar-tize the parser.
# [22:14] <mnot> q-
# [22:14] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [22:14] <rubys> http://intertwingly.net/projects/pegurl/urltest-results/
# [22:15] <Travis> ... (Reiterates that he's solving real technical problems)
# [22:15] <Travis> ... Test results by user agent.
# [22:15] <Travis> ... shows the gaps in consensus.
# [22:15] <rubys> https://github.com/rubys/url/
# [22:16] <Travis> ... I would like to see the spec updated based on places that seem like browser behavior doesn't match the spec
# [22:16] <Travis> ... I invite others to review the work.
# [22:16] <Travis> ... Please test it out yourself.
# [22:16] <rubys> http://intertwingly.net/projects/pegurl/liveview.html
# [22:16] <mnot> q+
# [22:16] * Zakim sees mnot on the speaker queue
# [22:17] <Travis> ... page show what the browser does with a URL and what rubys's implementation does (per the URL spec)
# [22:17] <dka> Validates on http://will.i.am.
# [22:17] <Travis> ... Soon it will show hard/soft parsing errors.
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# [22:17] <Travis> ... Thank you
# [22:18] <ArtB> q?
# [22:18] * Zakim sees mnot on the speaker queue
# [22:18] <ArtB> ack mnot
# [22:18] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [22:18] <Travis> MarkN: Thanks to Sam for taking this on.
# [22:18] * Quits: jrossi (~jrossi@public.cloak) (jrossi)
# [22:18] <miterho> present+miterho Mikko Terho Huawei
# [22:18] <Travis> ... IETF area director is visiting. What is this working group going to tell them about where the work is being done.
# [22:19] <Travis> ... Are you deferring to the TAG for this decision.
# [22:19] <Travis> q? PaulC
# [22:19] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [22:19] <Travis> q+ PaulC
# [22:19] * Zakim sees PaulC on the speaker queue
# [22:19] <Travis> ArtB: We have two formal objections to publishing under W3C.
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# [22:20] <Travis> Dan: It's possible that TAG + WebApps joint deliverable should be working together to get feedback to Anne.
# [22:21] <Travis> paulc: Where are the formal objections kept?
# [22:21] <Travis> ... FO's are not meant to be a threat; they are to be logged as technical objections.
# [22:21] <Travis> ... this does not make sense to me.
# [22:21] <Travis> ... HTML5 had 25 formal objections.
# [22:21] <mnot> q+
# [22:21] * Zakim sees PaulC, mnot on the speaker queue
# [22:22] <Travis> ... I would like folks to look at the URL reference in today's REC HTML5 doc.
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# [22:22] <Travis> ... I'm concerned about people saying: "Tim was there" it was unanimous. I'm of the opinion that Tim may have changed his mind...!
# [22:22] <plh> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/references.html#refsURL
# [22:23] <Travis> ... This is what the director expects will happen (reading from the HTML5 rec)
# [22:23] * Quits: npdoty (npdoty@public.cloak)
# [22:23] <ArtB> q?
# [22:23] * Zakim sees PaulC, mnot on the speaker queue
# [22:23] <mnot> q-
# [22:23] * Zakim sees PaulC on the speaker queue
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# [22:24] <Travis> marcosc: I think it's fantastic what MarkN is proposing.
# [22:24] <Travis> Dan: We need to think about how to do this in the future.
# [22:24] <Travis> ... I want positive collaboration and good cross-linking as appropriate.
# [22:24] <Travis> ... but we also need to think about the IPR story.
# [22:25] * Quits: Claes (~Claes@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [22:25] <Travis> ... the original reason for the re-print of URL was to have a strong story about IPR.
# [22:25] <rubys> q+ to say that I don't think we have an answer to mnot's question, nor will we likely have one by tomorrow
# [22:25] * Zakim sees PaulC, rubys on the speaker queue
# [22:25] <Travis> ... My lawers at Telefonica said doing URL in webapps would be a strong story. But agreed that WHATWG community licensing was a step in the right direction.
# [22:25] <Travis> ... That's why I agreed on the option for direct-ref to WHATWG.
# [22:25] <plh> ack Paul
# [22:26] * Zakim sees rubys on the speaker queue
# [22:26] <Travis> ... We should discuss
# [22:26] <Travis> Larry: There are some technical issues.
# [22:26] <marcosc> q+
# [22:26] * Zakim sees rubys, marcosc on the speaker queue
# [22:26] <ArtB> q?
# [22:26] * Zakim sees rubys, marcosc on the speaker queue
# [22:26] <Travis> ... IRI's partial failure was no participation with dealing with technical issue.
# [22:26] <Travis> ... primarily for non-ascii domain names.
# [22:27] <Travis> ... Someone needs to lead to propose something to follow.
# [22:27] * Quits: rniwa (~rniwa@public.cloak) (rniwa)
# [22:27] <Travis> ... The technical issues _do_ need to be resolved. Please don't get hung up in the politics.
# [22:27] <Travis> ... Please review the proposal and give feedback. Let's do some work.
# [22:27] <Travis> marcosc: I was going to agree; I agree. Let's focus on the technical work.
# [22:27] * Quits: dka (~dka@public.cloak) (dka)
# [22:28] <Travis> ... Half the web platform is owned by the WHATWG
# [22:28] <mnot> q+
# [22:28] * Zakim sees rubys, marcosc, mnot on the speaker queue
# [22:28] <Travis> ArtB: We're getting off topic.
# [22:28] <plh> ack marco
# [22:28] * Zakim sees rubys, mnot on the speaker queue
# [22:28] <plh> ack ruby
# [22:28] <Zakim> rubys, you wanted to say that I don't think we have an answer to mnot's question, nor will we likely have one by tomorrow
# [22:28] <Travis> rubys: I don't think we can give an answer.
# [22:28] * Zakim sees mnot on the speaker queue
# [22:28] <Travis> ... I've showed you something I'm working. If the director wants it in W3C or not, I'm happy.
# [22:28] <ArtB> ack mnot
# [22:28] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [22:28] * Quits: Zefa (~Zefa@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [22:29] <Travis> ... If there's IPR work, I'm happy to do it.
# [22:29] <Travis> markn: I wasn't aware of what Paul brought up. So, thank you.
# [22:29] <rubys> q-
# [22:29] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [22:29] <Travis> ArtB: Any further comments? Queue is empty.
# [22:30] <Travis> Dan: One thing we've discussed is whether we need a TF for URL to represent the community. E.g., Data on the web which is using URIs (what they call them)
# [22:30] <Travis> ... I think this is an important constituency to consider for the TAG
# [22:30] <rubys> q+
# [22:30] * Zakim sees rubys on the speaker queue
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# [22:30] <Travis> ... We need to take into account the work Larry describes for registries.
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# [22:30] <Travis> ... Does it make sense to form a TF from TAG, this working group, other communities?
# [22:31] <Travis> ... I'm happy to put energy into making this happy.
# [22:31] <Travis> rubys: The keyword is "technical" input.
# [22:31] <Travis> ... I've seen lots of groups jump on this to help with non-technical input.
# [22:31] <Travis> rubys: Does Anne feel he needs a TF?
# [22:31] <Travis> ... Does Sam need one (me)?
# [22:31] <Travis> ... We need pull requests.
# [22:32] <ArtB> -> https://github.com/whatwg/url/ WHAT WG Github repo
# [22:32] <Travis> Dan: Just want to make sure we're doing something useful. Not married to the TF idea.
# [22:32] <Travis> ArtB: PLH?
# [22:32] <Travis> plh: At the end of the day, we want to see URL working on the web.
# [22:32] <Travis> ... Whatever we can do to help we will.
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# [22:32] <mnot> q+
# [22:32] * Zakim sees rubys, mnot on the speaker queue
# [22:32] <rubys> q-
# [22:32] * Zakim sees mnot on the speaker queue
# [22:32] * Yves over the last 20 years, URLs are not working that bad on the web
# [22:32] <Travis> ... Now we are in this mess as IETF outreach didn't help in the past.
# [22:33] <Travis> ... So where should the work happen?
# [22:33] <Travis> ... I want the work to happen :-)
# [22:33] <Travis> ... I don't see enough browser involvement right now. I don't want it to be wasted effort.
# [22:33] * marcosc notes Anne works for a browser vendor?
# [22:33] <Travis> ... IETF has had trouble getting browser involvement.
# [22:34] <mnot> q?
# [22:34] * Zakim sees mnot on the speaker queue
# [22:34] * rubys notes that I do NOT work for a browser vendor
# [22:34] <Travis> paulc: I compliment Sam to take the time to tackle the technical work.
# [22:34] <Travis> ... (while they worked with the director on HTML5)
# [22:34] * marcosc notes rubys is awesome regardless ;)
# [22:34] * plh marcos, Anne has been complaining about the lack of attention from the browser vendors
# [22:34] <Travis> ... I think this WG needs a plan for a plan to publish a W3C working draft.
# [22:34] * Yves marcos "a browser vendor" is not "all browser vendors"
# [22:34] <Travis> ... I noted that FO don't stop things from happening.
# [22:34] * marcosc plh, ok - good to know
# [22:35] <Travis> ... But we should know what state we want URL to be in before another heartbeat.
# [22:35] * marcosc plh, misunderstood what you were saying
# [22:35] <rubys> q+
# [22:35] * Zakim sees mnot, rubys on the speaker queue
# [22:35] <dka> q?
# [22:35] * Zakim sees mnot, rubys on the speaker queue
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# [22:35] <Travis_> scribe: Travis_
# [22:36] <Travis_> MarkN: Lots of communities involved.
# [22:36] <ArtB> q+ Larry
# [22:36] * Zakim sees mnot, rubys, Larry on the speaker queue
# [22:36] <Travis_> Dan: I do not disagree with you.
# [22:36] <Travis_> ... Point: Spec should explicitly scope itself to not include URI/URL outside it's scope.
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# [22:37] <Travis_> ... Feedback that the URL spec does not take into account other consituents.
# [22:37] <Travis_> MarkN: IETF is not angry with W3C on this.
# [22:37] <Travis_> ... we recognize that we dropped the ball.
# [22:37] <Travis_> ... State of IETF is patiently waiting to see what will happen.
# [22:37] <ArtB> ack mnot
# [22:37] * Zakim sees rubys, Larry on the speaker queue
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# [22:37] <Travis_> rubys: Just want to reiterate that I volunteer.
# [22:38] <Travis_> ... paulc said get a plan for a plan.
# [22:38] * Quits: Louay (~Louay@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [22:38] <Travis_> rubys: Now, I'm in the Webapps WG I can help
# [22:38] <Travis_> ... I'm here all week.
# [22:38] <rubys> q-
# [22:38] * Zakim sees Larry on the speaker queue
# [22:38] <ArtB> ack rubys
# [22:38] * Zakim sees Larry on the speaker queue
# [22:38] <ArtB> ack larry
# [22:38] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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# [22:39] <Travis_> Larry: To reduce heat: URI can be stable while IRIs needed updating.
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# [22:39] <Travis_> ... you are producing a replacement for the IRI spec.
# [22:39] <Travis_> ... You'll get less push-back if your replacing 3987 (vs. 3986)
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# [22:40] <Travis_> MarkN: IETF is saying "don't worry about us"
# [22:40] <Travis_> ArtB: This concludes the discussion. Thanks all.
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# [22:41] * ArtB thanks Travis_!
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# [22:49] <Zakim> -Olli_Pettay
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# [22:53] <Zakim> -lgombos
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# [22:59] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [22:59] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
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# [23:00] <ArtB> Present+ Dan_Appelquist, Mark_Nottingham, Larry_Masinter, Peter_Linss, Phillipe_LeHegaret
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# [23:01] <ArtB> Present+ Paul_Cotton, Mike_Smith
# [23:01] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [23:01] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
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# [23:27] <benjamp> zakim, who is on the call?
# [23:27] <Zakim> On the phone I see Portland
# [23:27] <Zakim> Portland has chaals, ArtB, Yves, sicking
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# [23:29] <timeless> scribe: timeless
# [23:29] <timeless> Zakim, timeless has entered Portland
# [23:29] <Zakim> +timeless; got it
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# [23:30] <timeless> Zakim, who is on the call?
# [23:30] <Zakim> On the phone I see Portland
# [23:30] <Zakim> Portland has chaals, ArtB, Yves, sicking, timeless
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# [23:34] <timeless> topic: Editing
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# [23:35] <timeless> chaals: Editing and friends are the topic
# [23:35] <timeless> ... i'll give it to benjamp
# [23:35] <timeless> benjamp: today we have a wrap up of Intentions
# [23:35] <timeless> ... we have some requests from IndyUI
# [23:35] <timeless> ... and then editing for the last hour
# [23:35] <timeless> ... objections?
# [23:35] <timeless> [ None ]
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# [23:35] <kurosawa> s/IndyUI/Indie UI/
# [23:36] <timeless> rich: Rich QQQ, IBM
# [23:36] <MichaelC_> s/QQQ/Schwerdtfeger/
# [23:36] <timeless> ... we were talking about the tie-in with Selection
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# [23:36] <timeless> ... also Craig had mentioned multiple people w/ access to selection
# [23:36] * MichaelC_ is now known as MichaelC
# [23:36] <timeless> ... also the end-event
# [23:36] <timeless> ... benjamp ?
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# [23:36] <timeless> benjamp: i have those notes, and i should be able to make bugs/update the spec
# [23:37] <timeless> ... if there are things you want to cover in this meeting...
# [23:37] <timeless> rich: we'd like to see avoided
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# [23:37] <timeless> ... -- we'd like to know about the type of object w/ which you're interacting
# [23:37] <ArtB> zakim, who's here?
# [23:37] <Zakim> On the phone I see Portland
# [23:37] <timeless> ... we have ARIA
# [23:37] <Zakim> Portland has chaals, ArtB, Yves, sicking, timeless
# [23:37] <Zakim> On IRC I see marcosc, Tomoki, kn2, chaals, ArtB, kn1, kbx, dka, tomoyuki, dka_, tantek, a1zu, ohm, shinwoo, a12u, kurosawa, Norbert, MichaelC, jrossi, jcraig, rniwa, benjamp,
# [23:37] <Zakim> ... charles_engelke, yosuke, plh, npdoty, jgraham, hiroto__, jyasskin, myakura, shepazu, zcorpan_, Cyril, fjh, brendaneich, lgombos, sam, jhund, glenn, darobin, jsbell_, spoussa_,
# [23:37] <Zakim> ... jungkees, bkardell_, anssik, RRSAgent, bryan, Zakim, smaug, kochi1, kochi, paul___irish, mihnea_____, MarkS, plinss, marcosc_, tyoshino, igrigorik, stryx`_, stryx`, MikeSmith,
# [23:37] <Zakim> ... hober
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# [23:37] <timeless> ... we'd like to make it more mainstream
# [23:37] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [23:37] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
# [23:37] <timeless> ... we'd like Dual-benefit
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# [23:37] <timeless> ... if you run into a slider, you need the current value of the slider
# [23:37] <timeless> ... max, min, increments (we don't have yet)
# [23:38] <timeless> ... to do device-independent interaction
# [23:38] <timeless> ... for Accessibility, we need APIs for this
# [23:38] <timeless> benjamp: sounds great, i'll file bugs for those
# [23:38] <timeless> ... I went to the Indie UI meeting earlier
# [23:38] <timeless> ... we went over some requests
# [23:38] <timeless> ... some ways to merge
# [23:38] <timeless> ... I have things to consider, they'll all be on the ML
# [23:38] <timeless> ... Indie UI seems to be willing to take the Events we're considering in WebApps/CSS
# [23:39] <timeless> ... Scrolling/Selection
# [23:39] <timeless> ... and let them be driven by these WGs
# [23:39] <timeless> ... and continue on with the rest of their events
# [23:39] * Quits: a12u (~androirc@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [23:39] <timeless> ... using the events structure
# [23:39] <timeless> rich: we may move things over
# [23:39] <timeless> janina: we don't need to go into it now
# [23:39] <jcraig> q+ to discuss Element.computedRole() and Element.computedLabel()
# [23:39] * Zakim sees jcraig on the speaker queue
# [23:39] <timeless> ... process point, we'd like to keep ourselves all coordinated
# [23:39] <timeless> ... not useful to join multiple lists
# [23:39] * Joins: Zefa (~Zefa@public.cloak)
# [23:39] <timeless> ... how to structure work together
# [23:39] <timeless> ... so communication flows more smoothly
# [23:40] <timeless> ... we had a structure set up
# [23:40] * Quits: dka_ (~dka@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [23:40] <timeless> ... but we aren't using it the way it was intended
# [23:40] <timeless> ... with multiple lists, people aren't necessarily on the right list
# [23:40] <ArtB> Present+ Alex_Russel, James_Craig, Michael_Cooper, Richard_Schwerdtfeger, Katie_Haritos-Shea, Janina_Sajka, Norbert_Lindenberg
# [23:40] <timeless> ... maybe chairs should discuss how to do this
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# [23:40] <timeless> chaals: yeah
# [23:40] <timeless> ... helpful
# [23:41] <jcraig> ack me
# [23:41] <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to discuss Element.computedRole() and Element.computedLabel()
# [23:41] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [23:41] <ArtB> ACTION: charles make sure WebApps has good communication flow with IndieUI group re Editing
# [23:41] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [23:41] * RRSAgent records action 1
# [23:41] <trackbot> Created ACTION-756 - Make sure webapps has good communication flow with indieui group re editing [on Charles McCathie Nevile - due 2014-11-04].
# [23:41] <timeless> jcraig: we had a discussion about Events this morning
# [23:41] <timeless> ... i'd like to mention other topics
# [23:41] <timeless> ... three that I remember...
# [23:41] <timeless> ... Selection API ... ComputedRule, ComputedLabel
# [23:42] <timeless> ... an accessor for UserSettings
# [23:42] <timeless> ... IndieUI UserContext
# [23:42] <timeless> ... Element.computedRole, Element.computedLabel
# [23:42] <timeless> ... input.type=submit, input.type=button -> roles are both Button
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# [23:42] <timeless> ... Role = Switch
# [23:42] <timeless> ... Switch is ARIA 1.1
# [23:42] <timeless> ... css can't tell how to deal w/ this
# [23:43] <MichaelC> s/ComputedRule/ComputedRole/
# [23:43] <timeless> ... This morning, CSS approved a role-selector
# [23:43] * timeless ???
# [23:43] <rniwa> q+
# [23:43] * Zakim sees rniwa on the speaker queue
# [23:44] <timeless> ... alex@mozilla Element.accessibility, Element.role - a way to get the accessible version, or the object
# [23:44] <timeless> ... to me it makes sense to get direct from the DOM
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# [23:44] <timeless> Travis: Agreed (direct)
# [23:44] <timeless> rniwa: i think computedStyle / ...
# [23:44] <timeless> ... should go to HTML, as opposed to WebApps
# [23:44] <timeless> chaals: DOM is being done in HTML, but it's sort of WebApps
# [23:45] <timeless> ... and you could it straight in IndieUI
# [23:45] <timeless> ... if we're talking w/ WebApps and API people and same people in HTML in this room
# [23:45] <timeless> ... you can do specing in IndieUI
# [23:45] <timeless> ... say IndieUI is specing Element.computedRole
# [23:45] <timeless> ... and HTML would know
# [23:45] <timeless> ... I don't care either way
# [23:45] <timeless> jcraig: if you think this is appropriate to HTML WG
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# [23:46] <timeless> ... I'd probably push it to ARIA, rather than IndieUI
# [23:46] <timeless> rich: the SVG WG is now
# [23:46] <chaals> q?
# [23:46] * Zakim sees rniwa on the speaker queue
# [23:46] <timeless> ... building off the HTML Element
# [23:46] <timeless> ... and get computedRole label there
# [23:46] <timeless> ... not sure we'd want it on Element
# [23:46] <timeless> jcraig: does MathML inherit from Element?
# [23:46] <timeless> paulc: I want to encourage you to do the work, don't worry about where it ends up
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# [23:47] <timeless> ... we'll meet in 6 months, I'll buy you all a beer
# [23:47] <timeless> rniwa: my point was that I don't want this to be part of Intentions, or Editing, it's clearly not Intentions/Editing
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# [23:47] <timeless> jcraig: there are a few unrelated topics
# [23:47] <timeless> ack r
# [23:47] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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# [23:47] <jcraig> ARIA 1.x
# [23:47] <timeless> rich: I don't think anyone will have problems writing spec text
# [23:47] <timeless> ... who do we send it to?
# [23:48] <timeless> chaals: write it up, send it to WebApps+HTML, "what do you recon"
# [23:48] <timeless> ... we'll say "g, looks good to me"
# [23:48] <timeless> rich: is anyone working on MathML right now?
# [23:48] <timeless> chaals: I don't think they are
# [23:48] <timeless> janina: I think they're in maintenance
# [23:48] <jcraig> jcraig to spec: partial interface Element { String computedRole(); String computedLabel(); } (already a PF Action)
# [23:48] <timeless> chaals: it would make sense to write to them as well
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# [23:49] * timeless should those be multi-strings or something (like ClassList)
# [23:49] <timeless> joanie: for Generated Content
# [23:49] <timeless> ... I wasn't planning on it, but i'll toss it out
# [23:49] <timeless> ... in talking w/ benjamp, i'll file issues
# [23:49] <timeless> ... some of the problems we're having w/ generated content
# [23:49] <timeless> ... from an Accessibility issue
# [23:49] <timeless> ... it isn't selectable
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# [23:50] <timeless> ... Apps might do this and put small bits of text :before/:after
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# [23:50] <timeless> ... assistive technology user can't copy it
# [23:50] <timeless> ... which is fine
# [23:50] <rniwa> q+
# [23:50] * Zakim sees rniwa on the speaker queue
# [23:50] <timeless> ... the assistive technology would need to put up a workaround
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# [23:50] <timeless> ... but it would need an API "is this selectable?"
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# [23:50] <timeless> chaals: Generated content is "not part of the DOM"
# [23:50] <timeless> ... if you're doing a Rich Selection into the clipboard
# [23:51] <timeless> ... you could maintain that separation, HTML + style
# [23:51] <timeless> ... if you're doing a straight text selection
# [23:51] <timeless> ... please can we have What-You-See-as-What-You-Select
# [23:51] <timeless> ... be What-You-Get-in-the-Clipboard
# [23:51] <timeless> ... analogous to background-css sprite stuff
# [23:51] <timeless> ... "technically it's not part of the page"
# [23:51] <timeless> ... but the only people who know that are those people using "inspect element" to see the page
# [23:52] <timeless> ... everyone else says "it's there, I can see it, it's part of the page"
# [23:52] <timeless> ... you should be able to see it, you should be able to select it, you should be able to pick it up
# [23:52] <timeless> Travis: on generated content selection
# [23:52] <timeless> ... we unfortunately had to fix a bug recently
# [23:52] <timeless> ... for Interop on the live web
# [23:52] <timeless> ... pasting generated content broke the site
# [23:52] <timeless> ... i'm of the opinion, that if you see it, you should be able to select it, and copy it, and paste it
# [23:53] <timeless> ... Due to technical limitations in IE, you can only select the entire generated hunk
# [23:53] <jcraig> q?
# [23:53] * Zakim sees rniwa on the speaker queue
# [23:53] <timeless> benjamp: in 8 minutes, I need the meeting for Editing
# [23:53] <timeless> ack rniwa
# [23:53] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [23:53] <timeless> rniwa: in some browsers, you can't select generated content
# [23:53] <timeless> ... that's something we (WebKit) need to fix
# [23:53] <jcraig> q+
# [23:53] * Zakim sees jcraig on the speaker queue
# [23:54] <timeless> ... we either need to put it in Selection API
# [23:54] <timeless> ... or ...
# [23:54] <timeless> ... there could be technical issues we need to resolve
# [23:54] <timeless> ... what's important is that when you select it and copy it, it needs to include the generated content
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# [23:54] <timeless> ... I think that involves specing in the text
# [23:54] <timeless> chaals: I thought Travis was going to do it
# [23:54] <timeless> ... Text and Keyboard is easy
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# [23:54] <timeless> ack jcraig
# [23:54] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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# [23:55] * benjamp
# [23:55] * benjamp hello
# [23:55] <timeless> jcraig: the 1.0 Selection API should note "it's going to include generated content", or "it's not going to include generated content"
# [23:56] <timeless> ... if it should be somewhere else, we should know where
# [23:56] <timeless> chaals: we should put in the 1.0 draft that "you should be able to"
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# [23:56] <timeless> ... if that's a problem, "it would be nice if you could do this, currently there's no way to do this, but it is the goal"
# [23:56] <timeless> ... we can push wishes for the future into the spec
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# [23:57] <timeless> jcraig: what is the users
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# [23:57] <timeless> ... inverted color settings
# [23:57] * Joins: Zefa (~Zefa@public.cloak)
# [23:57] <timeless> ... do they have capability of keyboard
# [23:57] <timeless> ... ability to get captions enabled
# [23:57] <timeless> ... seems like a dom change
# [23:57] <timeless> ... we have a draft of it
# [23:57] <timeless> ... in Indie UI
# [23:58] <timeless> ... based on rniwa ...
# [23:58] <timeless> rniwa: we brought this up @Shenzhen last year
# [23:58] <timeless> jcraig: several of the things that make sense
# [23:58] <timeless> ... are in the drafts
# [23:58] <jcraig> http://www.w3.org/TR/indie-ui-context/
# [23:59] <timeless> ... one of them
# [23:59] <timeless> ... section 5.3
# [23:59] <timeless> ... subtitles are preferred
# [23:59] * Quits: ohm (~ohm@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [23:59] <timeless> ... subtitles available to the user, English + Spanish
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# [23:59] <timeless> ... not needed for HTML5 video
# [23:59] <timeless> ... but custom video, flash video
# [23:59] <timeless> ... you'd need these to detect
# Session Close: Wed Oct 29 00:00:00 2014

The end :)