/irc-logs / w3c / #webapps / 2014-10-29 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Oct 29 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #webapps
  3. # [00:00] <timeless> chaals: you're doing that in IndieUI
  4. # [00:00] <timeless> ... keep doing it
  5. # [00:00] <timeless> ... we're happy not to take work from you
  6. # [00:00] <timeless> ... that it?
  7. # [00:00] <timeless> Topic: Intentions
  8. # [00:00] * Quits: smaug (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  9. # [00:00] <timeless> benjamp: yesterday we talked about a common shape for our API
  10. # [00:00] <timeless> ... having thought about that a bit more
  11. # [00:00] <timeless> ... the goal of the extensions explainer
  12. # [00:01] <timeless> ... 1) explain to browsers/standards bodies how things should work
  13. # [00:01] <timeless> ... selection, scrolling, input
  14. # [00:01] <chaals> s/extension/intention
  15. # [00:01] <timeless> ... a unified concept
  16. # [00:01] <timeless> ... 2) explain to web developers what they are
  17. # [00:01] <timeless> ... how they should build their sites
  18. # [00:01] <timeless> ... how to deal w/ new input modalities
  19. # [00:01] * Joins: Cyril (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
  20. # [00:01] <timeless> ... how to make their sites accessible
  21. # [00:01] <timeless> ... w/o doing more work
  22. # [00:01] <timeless> ... if the explainer can do this, i think that's good
  23. # [00:01] <timeless> chaals: +1
  24. # [00:01] <timeless> janina: +1
  25. # [00:01] <jcraig> +1
  26. # [00:02] * timeless ?
  27. # [00:02] <timeless> ArtB: +1
  28. # [00:02] <timeless> benjamp: alright
  29. # [00:02] <timeless> Topic: Editing
  30. # [00:02] <timeless> benjamp: how Editing plays into Intentions
  31. # [00:02] <timeless> ... how we're going to solve Editing
  32. # [00:02] <timeless> ... Editing was the original thing that came up here, it was on a lot of people's minds
  33. # [00:02] <timeless> ... we've been discussing contentEditable
  34. # [00:02] <timeless> ... the next version of that, or something to replace it
  35. # [00:02] <timeless> ... darobin suggested keeping "true" as a value
  36. # [00:03] <timeless> ... but adding new values
  37. # [00:03] <timeless> ... to enable various levels of behavior
  38. # [00:03] <timeless> ... or various intentions that have default behavior from the browser
  39. # [00:03] * Joins: kbx (~kbx@public.cloak)
  40. # [00:03] <timeless> ... X.contentEditable = "cursor"
  41. # [00:03] <timeless> ... just a blinking cursor, no enter, no delete
  42. # [00:03] <timeless> ... just gives you events
  43. # [00:03] <timeless> ... downside is inline-IMEs would not work
  44. # [00:03] * Joins: jcdufourd (~jcdufourd@public.cloak)
  45. # [00:03] <timeless> ... you'd get a partial composition, and it won't be connected back to the IME
  46. # [00:04] <timeless> ... to finish the composition
  47. # [00:04] <timeless> ... in CJK
  48. # [00:04] <timeless> ... we may be able to solve the problem
  49. # [00:04] * Joins: rubys (~Adium@public.cloak)
  50. # [00:04] <timeless> ... there are some web developers interested in this w/o an interaction to that
  51. # [00:04] <timeless> ... next
  52. # [00:04] <timeless> ... X.contentEditbable = "typing"
  53. # [00:04] <timeless> ... no newlines, no formatting, no deleting
  54. # [00:04] <jcraig> s/X.contentEditbable/X.contentEditable/
  55. # [00:04] * Quits: Zefa (~Zefa@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  56. # [00:04] * timeless thx
  57. # [00:04] <timeless> ... that's a happy medium
  58. # [00:04] <timeless> ... we do the hard parts, IMEs, text insertion
  59. # [00:05] * Parts: rubys (~Adium@public.cloak) (rubys)
  60. # [00:05] <timeless> ... w/o dealing w/ standardizing/being consistent on newline/delete/etc.
  61. # [00:05] * Quits: kinjim (~kinjim@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  62. # [00:05] <timeless> chaals: my understanding is, there are developers of Plugins, RichTextEditors on blogging
  63. # [00:05] * Joins: miterho (~miterho@public.cloak)
  64. # [00:05] <timeless> ... the 5, 6, or 9 groups of developers making that horrible mess of JS code
  65. # [00:05] <timeless> ... not millions of individuals
  66. # [00:05] <timeless> ... but a handful of projects
  67. # [00:05] <timeless> benjamp: yes, a handful of projects used by many sites
  68. # [00:06] <timeless> chaals: not to preclude another individual from writing an editing system
  69. # [00:06] <timeless> benjamp: X.contentEditable="multiline"
  70. # [00:06] <timeless> ... X.contentEditable="deletion"
  71. # [00:06] <timeless> ... these names are random, we can change them
  72. # [00:06] <timeless> ... they're here to talk about
  73. # [00:06] <timeless> ... X.contentEditable="formatting"
  74. # [00:06] <timeless> ... XXX or "formating"
  75. # [00:07] <timeless> ... cursor/typing/multiline/deletion
  76. # [00:07] <timeless> ... we need to think about the order in which to tackle them
  77. # [00:07] <timeless> ... is typing the one to tackle first?
  78. # [00:07] <timeless> ... typing is harder to spec than cursor, but more useful
  79. # [00:07] <Norbert> q+
  80. # [00:07] * Zakim sees Norbert on the speaker queue
  81. # [00:07] <timeless> ... feedback?
  82. # [00:07] <timeless> rniwa: difference between typing/multiline?
  83. # [00:07] <timeless> benjamp: X.contentEditable="typing multiline deletion"
  84. # [00:07] <timeless> [ like X.classList ]
  85. # [00:08] <timeless> benjamp: typing is basically "insertion works, like <input type=text>"
  86. # [00:08] <timeless> ... but the element itself supports full html/css but only modifiable by script, not by user input
  87. # [00:08] <timeless> ... paste would have to be handled separately
  88. # [00:08] <timeless> rniwa: i have a hard time believing you want these different types
  89. # [00:08] <timeless> ... i feel there are very few UCs where you want typing
  90. # [00:08] <timeless> ... but not ...
  91. # [00:09] <timeless> ... i feel like it would be better to have "multiline" and then offer cancel for newlines
  92. # [00:09] <timeless> chaals: +1
  93. # [00:09] <timeless> ... seems to be the logical place to start
  94. # [00:09] <timeless> benjamp: the reason i'm considering typing
  95. # [00:09] <timeless> ... we don't have Intention events
  96. # [00:09] <timeless> ... it will take time to spec those
  97. # [00:09] <timeless> ... even if we spec those
  98. # [00:09] * Quits: Jingwang_qi (~Jingwang_qi@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  99. # [00:09] <timeless> ... if we could get typing
  100. # [00:09] * Quits: brendaneich (~brendaneich1@public.cloak) (brendaneich)
  101. # [00:09] * Quits: charles_engelke (~charles_engelke@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  102. # [00:09] <timeless> ... people could use existing dom apis
  103. # [00:09] <timeless> ... typing is easier to spec
  104. # [00:09] <timeless> ... true is supported, and you get intention events
  105. # [00:10] * Joins: Shige (~Shige@public.cloak)
  106. # [00:10] <timeless> ... cancel some events, and let it run
  107. # [00:10] <timeless> rniwa: i don't think "typing is easy"
  108. # [00:10] <timeless> ... it's very hard
  109. # [00:10] <timeless> ... typing includes IME, spellcheck, autocorrection, grammar, dictation, accessibility
  110. # [00:10] <timeless> ... specing typing would take as much time as typing if not more
  111. # [00:10] <timeless> ... IMO, it doesn't make much sense to spec type=typing concurrent w/ Intention
  112. # [00:11] <timeless> ... hoping that Intention is before intentions
  113. # [00:11] <timeless> ... I think typing is much harder than Intentions
  114. # [00:11] <timeless> chaals: Intentions is "generate an event"
  115. # [00:11] * Joins: Noriya (~Noriya@public.cloak)
  116. # [00:11] <timeless> ... that seems simpler than "specing typing"
  117. # [00:11] <timeless> ... i'm w/ rniwa
  118. # [00:11] <timeless> Travis: benjamp can you clarify the difference between
  119. # [00:11] <timeless> ... X.contentEditable="typing" and what you get w/ <input>
  120. # [00:12] <timeless> benjamp: they're similar, except you deal w/ HTML
  121. # [00:12] <timeless> ... X.contentEditable="typing" would be an input tag except
  122. # [00:12] <timeless> ... pressing <enter> does nothing
  123. # [00:12] <timeless> ... selection and replacing does nothing
  124. # [00:12] * Joins: Jingwang_qi (~Jingwang_qi@public.cloak)
  125. # [00:12] <timeless> ... the developer would have to figure out what to do
  126. # [00:13] <timeless> chaals: you select across a boundary involving <b>
  127. # [00:13] <timeless> ... and press <del>
  128. # [00:13] <timeless> ... the editor has to decide what to do
  129. # [00:13] <timeless> benjamp: which would be the case if you handled the keys and canceled events
  130. # [00:13] <timeless> ... if you handle only delete, you could
  131. # [00:13] * Joins: charles_engelke (~uid50049@public.cloak)
  132. # [00:13] <timeless> ... -- you can't insert over a non-empty-selection
  133. # [00:14] <timeless> q?
  134. # [00:14] * Zakim sees Norbert on the speaker queue
  135. # [00:14] <timeless> ack Norbert
  136. # [00:14] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  137. # [00:14] <timeless> Norbert: my experience is that
  138. # [00:14] <timeless> ... typing itself is often very hard
  139. # [00:14] <timeless> ... spellchecking is hard/spell correction
  140. # [00:14] <timeless> ... an application can not add much value
  141. # [00:14] <timeless> ... whether it would make sense
  142. # [00:14] * Quits: anssik (~uid10742@public.cloak) ("Connection closed for inactivity")
  143. # [00:14] <timeless> ... to draw a boundary around typing
  144. # [00:14] <timeless> ... say that typing w/in one #TextNode is handled by the browser
  145. # [00:14] <timeless> ... anything around it is handled by my application
  146. # [00:15] <timeless> benjamp: that's what x.contentEditable="typing" is
  147. # [00:15] <timeless> Norbert: if you say <backspace> is not part of "typing"
  148. # [00:15] <timeless> ... but <backspace> w/in a #TextNode is
  149. # [00:15] <timeless> benjamp: that's ambiguous
  150. # [00:15] * Quits: wooglae (~wooglae@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  151. # [00:15] * Quits: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak) (jcraig)
  152. # [00:15] <timeless> Norbert: we'd have to define when control returns from the Platform to the page
  153. # [00:15] <chaals> q+
  154. # [00:15] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
  155. # [00:15] <timeless> rniwa: suppose you type "hello"
  156. # [00:15] * Joins: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak)
  157. # [00:15] <timeless> ... <space>
  158. # [00:15] <timeless> ... <ctrl>+b
  159. # [00:16] <timeless> ... type "world"
  160. # [00:16] * Quits: paulliu (~paul@public.cloak) (paulliu)
  161. # [00:16] <timeless> ... now you hit <del>
  162. # [00:16] * Joins: seo (~seo@public.cloak)
  163. # [00:16] <timeless> ... maybe it's in the #TextNode
  164. # [00:16] <timeless> ... when you've deleted the "world"
  165. # [00:16] * Quits: miterho (~miterho@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  166. # [00:16] <timeless> ... what happens when you press <del> again (near <ctrl>+b)
  167. # [00:16] <timeless> ack chaals
  168. # [00:16] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  169. # [00:16] <timeless> chaals: if you hit <del> and you're not trying to delete w/in a node
  170. # [00:16] <timeless> ... it should be handled
  171. # [00:17] <timeless> ... we generate a <del> intention when the browser won't handle the text on its own
  172. # [00:17] <timeless> ... when you're in the element, you hit delete
  173. # [00:17] <timeless> ... as soon as the element is empty, it deletes the text
  174. # [00:17] <timeless> ... now you have <del> event fired and the application has to figure out what to do
  175. # [00:17] <timeless> ... <span>[hello]</>[ ]<b><span>[world]</span></b>
  176. # [00:17] <timeless> rniwa: the browser has to understand the state
  177. # [00:17] <timeless> benjamp: if we do this
  178. # [00:18] <timeless> ... we're doing the easy parts, and leaving the hard parts to the frameworks
  179. # [00:18] <timeless> ... if it's inconsistent and sometimes don't fire events, that's really confusing
  180. # [00:18] <jcraig> q+
  181. # [00:18] * Zakim sees jcraig on the speaker queue
  182. # [00:18] <timeless> chaals: conservatively do deleting
  183. # [00:18] <timeless> ... if you know where you are, and you can be really sure,
  184. # [00:18] <timeless> ... not perfectly interoperable
  185. # [00:18] <jcraig> q+ to ask how opt+delete would be handled?
  186. # [00:18] * Zakim sees jcraig on the speaker queue
  187. # [00:18] <timeless> ... then you delete
  188. # [00:18] <timeless> ... user presses <del> at end of <b/>
  189. # [00:18] <timeless> ... you fire off intention
  190. # [00:18] <timeless> ... and the web page looks at where you are
  191. # [00:19] <timeless> ... and the web page decides what to do
  192. # [00:19] <timeless> benjamp: we've talked about having the Delete Intention say what it would delete
  193. # [00:19] <timeless> ... browser makes a guess
  194. # [00:19] <timeless> ... gives it to the app
  195. # [00:19] <timeless> ... if the page disagrees, it can change it
  196. # [00:19] <jcraig> q-
  197. # [00:19] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  198. # [00:19] <timeless> ... and then it can be modified
  199. # [00:19] * Joins: notbenjamin (~textual@public.cloak)
  200. # [00:19] <timeless> rniwa: <span>[heello]</>[ ]<b><span>[world]</span></b>
  201. # [00:19] <timeless> ... if i go back to heello, i should be able to go back
  202. # [00:20] <timeless> ... the browser needs to know that it was something that the user just typed
  203. # [00:20] <timeless> q+ to ask why?
  204. # [00:20] * Zakim sees timeless on the speaker queue
  205. # [00:20] * timeless constantly pastes to get correction
  206. # [00:20] <timeless> rniwa: there's contextual information the user needs to get out of the text
  207. # [00:20] <jcraig> q+
  208. # [00:20] * Zakim sees timeless, jcraig on the speaker queue
  209. # [00:20] <timeless> benjamp: this is why we want to include "what we're about to insert"
  210. # [00:20] <timeless> ... if you hit <ctrl>-b, we should include an empty thing
  211. # [00:20] <timeless> ... we need to provide the contextual data
  212. # [00:21] <timeless> ... may-be more contextual data
  213. # [00:21] <timeless> ... they just typed it, we need to spellcheck it
  214. # [00:21] * Quits: jhund (~jhund@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  215. # [00:21] <timeless> ... crazy UCs, like end-of-word and spellchecking
  216. # [00:21] <timeless> ... we need to think about it
  217. # [00:21] <timeless> ... as long as we handle each individual action
  218. # [00:21] <timeless> ... typing character
  219. # [00:21] <timeless> ... deletion
  220. # [00:21] <timeless> ... handle each of them, it should be clear what we're supposed to be doing
  221. # [00:21] <timeless> q?
  222. # [00:21] * Zakim sees timeless, jcraig on the speaker queue
  223. # [00:21] <timeless> ack me
  224. # [00:21] <Zakim> timeless, you wanted to ask why?
  225. # [00:21] * Zakim sees jcraig on the speaker queue
  226. # [00:22] <rniwa> q+
  227. # [00:22] * Zakim sees jcraig, rniwa on the speaker queue
  228. # [00:22] * Joins: adrianba (~adrianba@public.cloak)
  229. # [00:23] <timeless> timeless: Just because the user didn't write something
  230. # [00:23] <timeless> ... doesn't mean they don't want spelling corrections
  231. # [00:23] <timeless> ... i frequently copy other peoples' texts
  232. # [00:23] <timeless> ... and use spell correction
  233. # [00:23] <timeless> ack jcraig
  234. # [00:23] * Zakim sees rniwa on the speaker queue
  235. # [00:23] <timeless> jcraig: on Contextual information
  236. # [00:23] <timeless> ... sometimes, what's available is
  237. # [00:23] <timeless> ... what's misspelled
  238. # [00:23] <timeless> ... the contexts of what they've typed
  239. # [00:23] <timeless> ... the candidates of what they've typed
  240. # [00:24] <timeless> ... likewise w/ dictation
  241. # [00:24] <timeless> ... similar phonemes vs. keyboard shifts
  242. # [00:24] <timeless> ack rniwa
  243. # [00:24] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  244. # [00:24] <timeless> rniwa: not putting autocorrection is a feature is a specific feature we added
  245. # [00:24] <timeless> ... we keep track of which pieces the user typed and which the user didn't
  246. # [00:24] <timeless> ... we specifically avoid it
  247. # [00:24] <timeless> ... it isn't that we're treating text as typed differently
  248. # [00:24] <timeless> ... because we were careless
  249. # [00:25] <timeless> ... it was intentional
  250. # [00:25] <timeless> [ timeless thinks this is stupdi ]
  251. # [00:25] <timeless> s/stupdi/stupid/
  252. # [00:25] <timeless> rniwa: to avoid autocorrecting a reply
  253. # [00:25] <timeless> ... to an email
  254. # [00:25] <timeless> ... i don't think it's sufficient for a browser to know
  255. # [00:25] <timeless> ... just the surrounding text
  256. # [00:25] <timeless> ... in the case of auto correction on a mac
  257. # [00:25] <timeless> ... you should be able to select any text, and the browser should be able to correct the text
  258. # [00:26] <timeless> ... the browser needs context
  259. # [00:26] <timeless> ... the browser needs to be able to initiate where to start correcting
  260. # [00:26] <timeless> chaals: that's an important UC
  261. # [00:26] <timeless> ... but is that problematic?
  262. # [00:27] <timeless> ... yes i should be able to deal w/ that
  263. # [00:27] <timeless> ... but i don't see where
  264. # [00:27] <timeless> ... this is cases where you're sure
  265. # [00:27] <timeless> rniwa: to benjamp 's earlier point
  266. # [00:27] <timeless> ... giving context of where things are typed
  267. # [00:27] <timeless> [ scribe clarifies, benjamp 's context is to the webapp ]
  268. # [00:27] <timeless> [ the browser has everything ]
  269. # [00:28] <timeless> chaals: the webapp can autocorrect what it sees
  270. # [00:28] <timeless> ... but do we need to provide this ... as a v1 thing
  271. # [00:28] <timeless> benjamp: when a browser makes a decision about what it's about to do
  272. # [00:28] <timeless> ... user types a letter [A]
  273. # [00:28] <timeless> ... browser knows what's selection
  274. # [00:28] <timeless> ... we need to provide the webapp what the browser planned to already do
  275. # [00:29] <timeless> ... they need the context data that the browser was using to make these decisions
  276. # [00:29] <timeless> ... context data = {current word, what's selected, ... }
  277. # [00:29] <timeless> ... we can figure out what that is
  278. # [00:29] <timeless> ... hand it to the web app as an Intention event
  279. # [00:29] * Joins: jcdufourd_ (~jcdufourd@public.cloak)
  280. # [00:29] <timeless> ... the web app can decide to change it
  281. # [00:29] <timeless> rniwa: apps need to inform browsers what parts are / aren't editable
  282. # [00:30] <timeless> benjamp: then it should be X.contentEditable=false
  283. # [00:30] <timeless> [ chaals goes to drawing board ]
  284. # [00:30] <timeless> chaals@[yandex.ru] <- browser inserted this
  285. # [00:30] * Quits: jcdufourd (~jcdufourd@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  286. # [00:31] <timeless> chaals: app needs a way to tell browser don't let delete
  287. # [00:31] <timeless> benjamp: that's what X.contentEditable=false
  288. # [00:31] * Quits: sam (osamu@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  289. # [00:31] <timeless> chaals: it's selectable because it's text
  290. # [00:31] <timeless> benjamp: it's selectable unless it's a picture
  291. # [00:31] <timeless> [ or if it's CSS selectable:false ]
  292. # [00:31] * Joins: stepsteg (~uid50053@public.cloak)
  293. # [00:31] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  294. # [00:31] <timeless> rniwa: we don't let users select across editing boundary
  295. # [00:32] <timeless> [ is that a bug? ]
  296. # [00:32] <timeless> chaals: we use :after{content"yandex.ru}
  297. # [00:32] <timeless> s/"yandex.ru/:"yandex.ru"/
  298. # [00:32] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
  299. # [00:33] <timeless> ... this is how we handle identities on our Intranet
  300. # [00:33] <timeless> benjamp: maybe we should have a session on problems to solve
  301. # [00:33] <timeless> ... if people think there's a problem w/ having the context the browser would use
  302. # [00:33] <jcraig> q+
  303. # [00:33] * Zakim sees jcraig on the speaker queue
  304. # [00:33] <timeless> ... apps can make the decisions they want to make
  305. # [00:33] <timeless> chaals: i think so
  306. # [00:33] <timeless> ... it seems like there's a model for typing which works
  307. # [00:33] * Quits: Shige (~Shige@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  308. # [00:34] <timeless> ... we need to sit down w/ UCs and check the model
  309. # [00:34] * Quits: arunranga (~arunranga@public.cloak) (arunranga)
  310. # [00:34] <timeless> ... everytime you're not sure, give the app an intention event
  311. # [00:34] <timeless> ... everytime you're sure, the browser should be able to just-do-it
  312. # [00:34] <timeless> ... it's unclear there'd be any problems
  313. # [00:34] <timeless> Travis: i think it will screw up a JS state machine
  314. # [00:35] <timeless> ... if you're a web app and you're managing this experience
  315. # [00:35] <timeless> ... and you only get things for the hard case
  316. # [00:35] * Joins: sam (osamu@public.cloak)
  317. # [00:35] <timeless> ... you're probably missing context
  318. # [00:35] <timeless> ... i support giving the context for the simple thing
  319. # [00:35] <timeless> benjamp: agreed
  320. # [00:35] <jcraig> q-
  321. # [00:35] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  322. # [00:35] <timeless> chaals: simple thing is text-inserted; text-inserted; text-removed
  323. # [00:35] <timeless> ... i agree you should get events when things change
  324. # [00:35] <timeless> ... complicated
  325. # [00:35] <timeless> benjamp: before-input "inserttext"
  326. # [00:35] <timeless> ... vs. "format"
  327. # [00:36] <timeless> ... or "insertnewline"
  328. # [00:36] <timeless> Norbert: it sounds like you want complete state
  329. # [00:36] <timeless> benjamp: i'm planning to give context data
  330. # [00:36] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@public.cloak)
  331. # [00:36] <timeless> ... spelling should be handled by the browser
  332. # [00:36] <timeless> ... unless you want to handle it in the app
  333. # [00:36] <jcraig> q+ to mention the IME and dictation examples
  334. # [00:36] * Zakim sees jcraig on the speaker queue
  335. # [00:36] <timeless> chaals: we're trying to make it possible to build an editor
  336. # [00:36] <timeless> ... where the ordinary stuff (Text in/out) is handled by the browser
  337. # [00:37] <timeless> ... and editors handle everything else
  338. # [00:37] <timeless> q+ to ask about an extra filter for "text-in-out"
  339. # [00:37] * Zakim sees jcraig, timeless on the speaker queue
  340. # [00:37] <timeless> chaals: if you want to screw up the basic stuff, we won't make that easy in this version
  341. # [00:37] <timeless> ack jcraig
  342. # [00:37] <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to mention the IME and dictation examples
  343. # [00:37] * Zakim sees timeless on the speaker queue
  344. # [00:37] <timeless> jcraig: selection crosses a boundary
  345. # [00:37] <timeless> ... a case where you handle stuff to the webapp
  346. # [00:38] <timeless> ... in IME/dictation case
  347. # [00:38] <timeless> ... there's a psuedo entering selection that comes and goes away
  348. # [00:38] <timeless> ... Romaji, "toayou", there's a candidate for "to, kyo"
  349. # [00:38] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@public.cloak) (sicking)
  350. # [00:38] <timeless> ... while you're talking, it's rendering things
  351. # [00:38] <timeless> ... but the whole insertion is rendered
  352. # [00:38] <timeless> ... but if you're selected over a word boundary
  353. # [00:38] <timeless> ... the app will perform a change
  354. # [00:38] <timeless> ... the way i'm hearing this
  355. # [00:39] <timeless> ... nothing would happen while you're typing
  356. # [00:39] <timeless> ... you wouldn't see visual feedback
  357. # [00:39] * Joins: tantek_ (~tantek@public.cloak)
  358. # [00:39] <timeless> chaals: you'd see the IME
  359. # [00:39] <timeless> ... you'd see the input method has control
  360. # [00:39] <timeless> ... when the IME hands the text back, you'd get the event
  361. # [00:39] <timeless> ... you'd have to decide how to deal w/ the text
  362. # [00:39] <timeless> jcraig: we'd render it as if we're changing the dom?
  363. # [00:39] <timeless> chaals: no
  364. # [00:40] <timeless> [C]haals
  365. # [00:40] <timeless> [4]
  366. # [00:40] <timeless> [h]
  367. # [00:40] <timeless> [x]
  368. # [00:40] <timeless> chaals: you'd see the browsers IME saying here's stuff
  369. # [00:40] <timeless> ... until you select the character you want
  370. # [00:40] <timeless> ... the cursor sits there waiting until you're done w/ the IME
  371. # [00:40] <timeless> jcraig: i understand the characters
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  375. # [00:42] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
  376. # [00:42] <timeless> chaals: we're not talking about client imes
  377. # [00:42] <timeless> ... only Host IMEs
  378. # [00:42] <timeless> benjamp: this UC can be solved w/ inline updates
  379. # [00:42] <timeless> ... if we're firing ALL intentions
  380. # [00:42] <timeless> ... IME, or other input-method
  381. # [00:42] <timeless> ... it inserts and removes text many times
  382. # [00:42] <timeless> ... they can handle it, or let us handle it
  383. # [00:42] <timeless> q?
  384. # [00:42] * Zakim sees timeless on the speaker queue
  385. # [00:43] <timeless> Katie: what about an Observe?
  386. # [00:43] <timeless> benjamp: all events are Observe unless you interfere
  387. # [00:43] <timeless> rniwa: when user types, there are specific underlines, and that needs to be done by the browser
  388. # [00:43] <timeless> chaals: absolutely
  389. # [00:44] <jcraig> s/Katie/Katie Haritos-Shea/
  390. # [00:44] * Joins: brendaneich (~brendaneich1@public.cloak)
  391. # [00:44] <timeless> s/Katie Haritos/Katie_Haritos/
  392. # [00:44] <timeless> chaals: IME is figuring out what i want
  393. # [00:44] <timeless> ... the intention is "replace this" with
  394. # [00:45] <jcraig> s/Katie_Haritos/Katie_Haritos_Shea/
  395. # [00:46] * Quits: sam (osamu@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  396. # [00:47] <timeless> benjamp: when you get a text-input event
  397. # [00:47] * Quits: a12u (~androirc@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  398. # [00:47] <timeless> ... you normally let it happen
  399. # [00:47] <timeless> ... if you want to insert extra stuff
  400. # [00:47] <timeless> ... you can do that, because you know text was just inserted
  401. # [00:47] * Quits: adrianba (~adrianba@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  402. # [00:47] <timeless> ... but generally you let the text insertion happen
  403. # [00:47] <timeless> ... there's an editor at microsoft
  404. # [00:48] <timeless> ... Visual Studio Online Code Editor
  405. # [00:48] <timeless> ... they're using a floating text area to do insertion
  406. # [00:48] <timeless> ... they can't style it
  407. # [00:48] <timeless> ... we need to provide them to let them monitor what gets inserted, but style it
  408. # [00:48] <timeless> ... they want IMEs to be handled
  409. # [00:48] <timeless> ... we're all in agreement about that
  410. # [00:48] <timeless> rniwa: i think darobin's proposal
  411. # [00:48] <timeless> ... using Shadow DOM
  412. # [00:48] <timeless> ... create hidden node
  413. # [00:48] * Quits: plh (plehegar@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
  414. # [00:49] <timeless> ... into which the browser inserts text nodes
  415. # [00:49] <timeless> ... might be something close to a workable solution
  416. # [00:49] <timeless> benjamp: 12 mins
  417. # [00:49] <timeless> ... next steps
  418. # [00:49] * Parts: charles_engelke (~uid50049@public.cloak)
  419. # [00:49] <timeless> ... obviously lots of problems to solve
  420. # [00:49] <timeless> ... one of the big ones is Input
  421. # [00:49] <timeless> ... input is incredibly complicated
  422. # [00:49] <timeless> ... before-input and input are in DOM Level 3
  423. # [00:49] <timeless> [ Travis is laughing ]
  424. # [00:50] <timeless> benjamp: i want to propose to them
  425. # [00:50] <timeless> ... that we take that in the Editing TF
  426. # [00:50] <timeless> ... because we're solving these problems
  427. # [00:50] <timeless> ... I don't care what spec it's in
  428. # [00:50] <darobin> s/using Shadow DOM/using a Shadow DOM attached to the caret/
  429. # [00:50] <timeless> ... we should be solving them in intentions
  430. # [00:50] <darobin> s/... create hidden node//
  431. # [00:50] <timeless> Travis: don't look at me
  432. # [00:50] <timeless> chaals: what's the problem?
  433. # [00:50] <timeless> ... not done until DOM3 (heat death)
  434. # [00:50] <timeless> ... it's not done until (heat death of next universe)
  435. # [00:51] <timeless> benjamp: alright, see what we can do
  436. # [00:51] <timeless> ... next, priorities
  437. # [00:51] <timeless> ... what do we want to go solve
  438. # [00:51] <timeless> ... in what order?
  439. # [00:51] <timeless> ... X.contentEditable = typing
  440. # [00:51] * Quits: npdoty (npdoty@public.cloak)
  441. # [00:51] <timeless> ... as a concept, i think it's the baseline
  442. # [00:51] <timeless> ... it enables IMEs, spellchecking
  443. # [00:51] <timeless> ... disables formatting, newlines
  444. # [00:52] <timeless> [ Agreed ]
  445. # [00:52] <timeless> benjamp: Developer Momentum
  446. # [00:52] <timeless> ... CK Editor is a group we're working w/
  447. # [00:52] <timeless> ... we need to continue to build, get feedback, UCs, testing
  448. # [00:52] <timeless> ... i'm working on that @MS
  449. # [00:52] <timeless> ... i'm sure the others are working on this in their own companies
  450. # [00:52] * Joins: Dong-Young (~Dong-Young@public.cloak)
  451. # [00:52] <timeless> ... @Extensible Web last month
  452. # [00:52] <timeless> ... two groups came to me
  453. # [00:53] <timeless> ... we need a strategy
  454. # [00:53] * Joins: a12u (~androirc@public.cloak)
  455. # [00:53] <timeless> chaals: if we start doing the work and say "you're welcome to come do this"
  456. # [00:53] <timeless> ... and they want this to happen
  457. # [00:53] <timeless> ... hopefully they'll come
  458. # [00:53] * Joins: jhund (~jhund@public.cloak)
  459. # [00:53] <timeless> ... we can't force them to come
  460. # [00:53] * MichaelC your staff contact can help with outreach / recruiting mehanisms
  461. # [00:53] <timeless> ... we can't force them to spend time
  462. # [00:53] <timeless> benjamp: everyone interested in this, please tell them to come
  463. # [00:54] <timeless> chaals: usual thing at the end of a meeting
  464. # [00:54] <timeless> benjamp: what do we do with these documents?
  465. # [00:55] <timeless> chaals: when ready, publish as notes
  466. # [00:55] <timeless> ... we can publish as drafts first
  467. # [00:55] * Quits: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  468. # [00:55] <timeless> ... when we're done scribbling on it, we publish as a note
  469. # [00:55] <timeless> benjamp: not yet
  470. # [00:55] * Joins: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak)
  471. # [00:55] <timeless> darobin: you publish to get feedback
  472. # [00:55] <timeless> chaals: a group of editors in a room
  473. # [00:55] <timeless> ... would be pleased if they had a stable-ish draft that didn't change every day
  474. # [00:55] <timeless> ... so they could give comments
  475. # [00:56] <timeless> benjamp: target that a couple of months out
  476. # [00:56] <timeless> Topic: Next Meeting
  477. # [00:56] * Quits: jyasskin (~textual@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  478. # [00:56] <timeless> chaals: somewhere in north in spring
  479. # [00:57] <timeless> benjamp: we have Friday calls, we don't use it regularly
  480. # [00:57] <timeless> ... it's been once every month or two
  481. # [00:57] <timeless> ... it's 8am this time zone (Pacific)
  482. # [00:57] <timeless> ... we can do adhoc
  483. # [00:57] <timeless> ... we use #webapps
  484. # [00:57] <timeless> [ Adjourned ]
  485. # [00:57] <timeless> ArtB: thanks timeless
  486. # [00:57] * Quits: benjamp (~benjamp@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  487. # [00:57] <timeless> chaals: thanks timeless
  488. # [00:57] <timeless> [ Applause ]
  489. # [00:57] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  490. # [00:57] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-webapps-minutes.html timeless
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  512. # [01:03] <Zakim> -Portland
  513. # [01:03] <Zakim> RWC_WAPI()12:00PM has ended
  514. # [01:03] <Zakim> Attendees were +1.617.225.aaaa, Laszlo, Portland.a, chaals, ArtB, timeless, Yves, sicking, Olli_Pettay, anssik, +1.781.428.aabb, lgombos
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  651. # [11:16] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
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  771. # [17:36] * Parts: gludi|3 (~kvirc@public.cloak) (Once you know what it is you want to be true, instinct is a very useful device for enabling you to know that it is)
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  1092. # Session Close: Thu Oct 30 00:00:00 2014

The end :)