/irc-logs / w3c / #webapps / 2015-07-08 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Jul 08 00:00:00 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #webapps
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  14. # [02:06] <Travis> Hi folks!
  15. # [02:06] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrsagent@public.cloak)
  16. # [02:06] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/07/08-webapps-irc
  17. # [02:06] <Travis> RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
  18. # [02:06] <RRSAgent> ok, Travis; I will not start a new log at midnight
  19. # [02:07] <garykac> Hello. I'm not on the call because I forgot my laptop today... :-(
  20. # [02:08] <garykac> But at least I'm here. ^_^
  21. # [02:08] <masayuki> Hi!
  22. # [02:09] <Travis> Excellent.
  23. # [02:09] <Travis> If you want to use a regular phone to dial in: +1-617-324-0000
  24. # [02:10] <Travis> Code is: 647 802 277
  25. # [02:10] <Travis> So... agenda?
  26. # [02:10] <garykac> Testing. Specifically, the doc that you sent out.
  27. # [02:10] <Travis> I commited the code to web-platform-tests this past week.
  28. # [02:11] <garykac> I'd also like to have a set of short-term goals. Targetting something around end of September.
  29. # [02:11] <Travis> Ok. Anything else?
  30. # [02:11] <garykac> For example, test a few events. Verify in multiple browsers. et al.
  31. # [02:12] <masayuki> My important issue is https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21120
  32. # [02:14] <Travis> OK. So:
  33. # [02:14] <Travis> 1. Goals (short term & testing)
  34. # [02:14] <Travis> 2. Bug 21120
  35. # [02:14] <Travis> 3. Testing framework (Travis)
  36. # [02:15] <Travis> Anything else?
  37. # [02:16] <Travis> Alright. Topic #1.
  38. # [02:16] <garykac> That's probably enough for today.
  39. # [02:16] <Travis> Gary you mentioned targetting something for end of Sept.
  40. # [02:16] <Travis> Were you thinking of a re-publication of the spec, or something else?
  41. # [02:17] <garykac> Getting a new spec published would be rather ambitious.
  42. # [02:17] <garykac> I was thinking more in terms of tracking progress on the testing front.
  43. # [02:18] <Travis> Clearly the major effort for us will be on the interactions and order of different events in relation to each other.
  44. # [02:18] <garykac> It would be nice to start picking off a few bugs as well. E.g., the ones that Masayuki wants prioritized.
  45. # [02:19] <garykac> Re: event ordering. I didn't see support for ambiguous ordering -- events can occur in either A>B or B>A order.
  46. # [02:19] <garykac> Do we have situations where we have a sequence of events, but a few of them don't have a strictly defined order?
  47. # [02:20] <garykac> Something like ABCDE nad ABDCE both being valid.
  48. # [02:20] <Travis> We may in regards to composition events or key/down up pairs.
  49. # [02:20] <garykac> I'm not sure if that's needed. We probably won't know until we start digging into the testing.
  50. # [02:21] <Travis> When you say "support" what do you mean?
  51. # [02:21] <garykac> I think it sounds like something that could be added later, but I wanted to bring it up.
  52. # [02:22] * Quits: jyasskin (~textual@public.cloak) ("My computer has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…")
  53. # [02:22] <garykac> by support: I mean creating a single test that accepts either ABCDE or ABDCE as correct event order.
  54. # [02:22] <Travis> That shouldn't be a problem.
  55. # [02:23] <Travis> The framework I wrote just records what happens, it doesn't prescribe a "right" or "wrong" answer--that logic still needs to be authored by the test author.
  56. # [02:23] <Travis> In regards to bugs, I counted 9 bugs that are related to key names/processing.
  57. # [02:24] <Travis> We could set a goal to work through all those 9 bugs by Sept.?
  58. # [02:24] <garykac> that sounds good.
  59. # [02:24] <masayuki> Sounds good to me too.
  60. # [02:24] <garykac> I haven't yet updated the spec now that it lives in the new location.
  61. # [02:25] <garykac> I need to get set up to do that...
  62. # [02:25] <Travis> I find it a bit easier to work with--you can even update directly through the Github website if you wish :)
  63. # [02:25] <garykac> Yeah, I'm sure it's not that hard - it's just doing it the first time.
  64. # [02:26] <Travis> Q: regarding new keys... do we need to add low-level mapping key/code values for any new "key-like" think that exists in all the world?
  65. # [02:26] <Travis> (e.g., new TVs and remote controls in Asia, etc.?)
  66. # [02:26] <Travis> It seems like an intractable (and never ending) problem.
  67. # [02:27] * Travis notes intractable and never ending are the same thing?
  68. # [02:27] <garykac> We *don't* want to say the people can add whatever codes they want.
  69. # [02:27] <garykac> The only alternative is to specify all the keys that people would be tempted to add.
  70. # [02:27] <garykac> We don't have to do them now, but we can play whack-a-mole as they come up.
  71. # [02:28] <garykac> [edit] We don't have to do them *all* now...
  72. # [02:28] <Travis> It seems like for some specific scenarios, should it be OK to overload some kind of user-defined key/code values?
  73. # [02:29] <Travis> Hardware people are coming up with new buttons with new labels and associated control codes all the time.
  74. # [02:29] <Travis> Is it the responsibility of our spec to define everything that could eventually, maybe, be used in a browser?
  75. # [02:30] <Travis> It seems like we are going the wrong direction--all these key codes make it _harder_ to author websites that will just work across a variety of platforms...
  76. # [02:30] <masayuki> At least web apps installed into such device need to distinguish what button in remote control is pressed.
  77. # [02:30] <garykac> Yes, but we don't care about vendor-specific buttons on remotes. But once they're defined in something like Android or iOS, it starts to make sense to think about including them.
  78. # [02:31] <garykac> I'm assuming that anything defined by (say) Android can occur in an Android browser.
  79. # [02:31] <garykac> But perhaps that's a mistaken assumption.
  80. # [02:31] <Travis> Android (the OS) is larger in scope than Chrome right?
  81. # [02:32] <garykac> Yes.
  82. # [02:32] <garykac> Hmmm....
  83. # [02:32] <Travis> Well, if the OS can generate the key code from some supported hardward, then it probably goes to the browser as-is...
  84. # [02:32] <Travis> Perhaps I'm just complaining about all the keys and codes that I'll never user.
  85. # [02:33] <garykac> It's a valid concern.
  86. # [02:33] <garykac> I'd like to only add keys that can be generated by a virtual keyboard (and thus, can make it into the browser).
  87. # [02:34] <garykac> Thinking about it now, I'm not sure if all of those keys satisfy that constraint.
  88. # [02:34] <Travis> Well, let's evaluate the set of 9 bugs we have on the subject, and see if we can get resolutions in the bugs for what we want and don't. It doesn't make sense to speculate here.
  89. # [02:35] <Travis> What would be a good goal for testing?
  90. # [02:35] <garykac> Have a framework (kinda done)
  91. # [02:35] <garykac> Write some number of tests (probably small to start with0
  92. # [02:36] <Travis> Well, today we now officially have 1.
  93. # [02:36] <garykac> Make sure we're evaluating on multiple browsers
  94. # [02:36] <Travis> I'll transition to my topic.
  95. # [02:36] <Travis> http://w3c-test.org/uievents/
  96. # [02:36] <garykac> Get feedback from the browser vendors about our approach.
  97. # [02:36] <Travis> We now have an official home in web-platform-tests.
  98. # [02:36] <Travis> I've created some basic directory structure based on Gary and I's initial brainstorming.
  99. # [02:37] <Travis> First test to validate the framework script I proposed last week: http://w3c-test.org/uievents/order-of-events/mouse-events/
  100. # [02:38] <Travis> You can view the source to see what I did.
  101. # [02:38] <Travis> I made the mistake of direct-checkin to master on web-platform-tests (and broke the build as a result).
  102. # [02:38] <Travis> Subsequent commits will be done via pull-request.
  103. # [02:38] <Travis> :-)
  104. # [02:39] <Travis> This mouse events tests was the simplest that I could conceive.
  105. # [02:39] <Travis> I also looked briefly at the web-driver tests.
  106. # [02:39] <Travis> It seems that we should be able to hook up webdriver to automate a large portion of our manual tests.
  107. # [02:40] <Travis> I'm still unsure how webdriver will handle input like dead-key simulation, crillic keyboard layouts, etc.
  108. # [02:40] <garykac> The mouse-event passes even if you enter/leave box 1 multiple times and then enter box 2 (from outside box 1). I would have expected the event order to be different enough to complain.
  109. # [02:41] <Travis> Yeah, we can change that. Just need to add handlers to the space around the boxes.
  110. # [02:42] <Travis> It was originally done by including the raw test in an iframe, but it didn't seem strictly necessary, so I merged the test container and the iframe together.
  111. # [02:42] <Travis> Is the pattern appropriate for testing?
  112. # [02:42] <garykac> I expected multiple mouseenter/mouseleave pairs for box 1 to be enough to make the test unhappy.
  113. # [02:43] <garykac> In any case, it looks great!
  114. # [02:43] <garykac> It's nice to have this as a starting point for the tests.
  115. # [02:44] <Travis> Yes, you bring an interesting point--the test only tests mousemove in isolation--no other events are tested--yet you almost need to test ALL the related events in sequence to make sure it's all working correctly.
  116. # [02:44] <Travis> (Start small)
  117. # [02:44] <Travis> Gary, want to try writing a followup test using this framework this week?
  118. # [02:45] <garykac> Since this is a manual test, it would be nice to have the user do something (like move the mouse) and then run a whole bunch of event order tests.
  119. # [02:45] <garykac> But we also would like each test to be small and self contained.
  120. # [02:45] <Travis> Both options are available.
  121. # [02:46] <Travis> I kept it simple with one test in one file.
  122. # [02:46] <garykac> Perhaps: Test groups as associated with a single user action (moving the mouse between boxes). and we have a number of tests for that particular group.
  123. # [02:46] <Travis> Sounds good to me. Nothing like getting your hands dirty to see what works and what doesn't.
  124. # [02:46] <garykac> That keeps tests small, and the user/tester doesn't have to repeat the same tedious action for each test.
  125. # [02:46] <garykac> Yeah.
  126. # [02:47] <garykac> Anyway, I'm out later this week.
  127. # [02:47] <Travis> :-(
  128. # [02:47] <garykac> I won't be able to play with this until Aug.
  129. # [02:47] <garykac> (although I want to)
  130. # [02:47] <Travis> Perhaps I can make some more progress on the 'test group' concept.
  131. # [02:48] <garykac> How about we set that as a goal for end of Sept.
  132. # [02:48] <Travis> OK.
  133. # [02:48] <Travis> masayuki: are you interested in contributing?
  134. # [02:48] <Travis> ... you are welcome to.
  135. # [02:48] <garykac> A user-action-group with a small set of associated tests.
  136. # [02:48] <Travis> Proposed goals for Sept.:
  137. # [02:48] <Travis> * A user-action-group with a small set of associated tests.
  138. # [02:49] <masayuki> Hmm, I'd like to do that, but I have a lot of bugs to be fixed by the end of Sept...
  139. # [02:49] <Travis> * Resolve 9 bugs dealing with adding new keys/codes.
  140. # [02:49] <Travis> Gary has been sending ideas for tests--thanks Gary.
  141. # [02:49] <garykac> masayuki: The most important thing would be to get feedback on the tests.
  142. # [02:49] <Travis> I'd like to also capture those somewhere.
  143. # [02:50] <garykac> Goal: * Get initial feedback on tests from browser vendors
  144. # [02:50] <garykac> I think those 3 things capture what we can reasonably expect to fix in the time (since we have a variety of vacations during this period)
  145. # [02:50] <masayuki> garykac: So, you mean, I should check the tests you will create? Then, perhaps, I could.
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  147. # [02:51] <Travis> I can have some folks from MS look over it. The fella that wrote some of the original events tests is still here :-)
  148. # [02:51] <garykac> masayuki: yes, any feedback on the tests (once we have some) would be great.
  149. # [02:52] <Travis> Between the three of us, we can have feedback from Mozilla, Microsoft, and Google. :) Have any good contacts at Apple?
  150. # [02:52] <Travis> rniwa might be helpful
  151. # [02:52] <masayuki> How to post feedback for them? bugzilla? github? ML?
  152. # [02:52] <garykac> No, but I can ask around once we have something to show.
  153. # [02:52] <garykac> Yeah, Ryousuke might be a good person.
  154. # [02:53] <Travis> On feedback: if we use Github issues for Web-platform-tests they might get lost in the crowd.
  155. # [02:53] <garykac> (err... that wasn't intended to be a general comment on goodness....)
  156. # [02:54] <garykac> At this point, we can track issues in a single doc (or bug if you prefer). Once things have stablized, then github issues will be more apprpriate.
  157. # [02:54] <Travis> But, github issues are the standard way to go. You can also tag people in them to get our attention.
  158. # [02:55] <Travis> We have this bug we could use for initial feedback: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25967
  159. # [02:55] <garykac> I don't feel strongly either way. We can play it by ear.
  160. # [02:55] <masayuki> For checking if each test is tested, managing with single document (like Google document) isn't so bad way.
  161. # [02:56] <Travis> We were also thinking of cross-linking tests into our spec to keep better track of them.
  162. # [02:56] <garykac> Well, we can work out those details later.
  163. # [02:57] <garykac> When are we all available to meet next time?
  164. # [02:57] <Travis> Gary, what is your vacation plans? Back in August?
  165. # [02:57] <masayuki> 14 and 21 is avaialbe, but not so 28.
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  167. # [02:58] <garykac> I'll be out until late Aug
  168. # [02:59] <garykac> Aug 25 might be the next time...
  169. # [02:59] <Travis> I'm gone from next monday to the 23rd, so 28th would be my soonest.
  170. # [02:59] <garykac> But you could meet earlier...
  171. # [03:00] <Travis> I could meet Aug. 3, or 25th.
  172. # [03:01] <garykac> Aug 4, 11, 18, 25.
  173. # [03:01] <Travis> Uh, 4th or 25th.
  174. # [03:01] <masayuki> Currently, I have no plan in Aug, so, I must be available every week in Aug.
  175. # [03:02] <garykac> I'll talk to you all on Aug 25. If you decide to meet earlier, I'll catch up by reading the log.
  176. # [03:02] <Travis> Well, can we check in on the 4th? We won't have Gary, but it will help force me to work on the testing.
  177. # [03:02] <garykac> sgtm
  178. # [03:02] <garykac> ^_^
  179. # [03:02] <masayuki> OK.
  180. # [03:03] <garykac> OK. I'm checking out now. I'll talk to you all later.
  181. # [03:03] <Travis> Thanks Gary!
  182. # [03:03] * Quits: garykac (~garykac@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  183. # [03:03] <Travis> masayuki: hear from you again on the 4th.
  184. # [03:03] <masayuki> Travis: yeah, see you.
  185. # [03:04] <masayuki> (starting another meeting now...)
  186. # [03:04] <Travis> rrsagent, make the minutes
  187. # [03:04] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/07/08-webapps-minutes.html Travis
  188. # [03:04] <Travis> rrsagent, make logs public
  189. # [03:04] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, Travis
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  264. # [18:57] * Quits: dom (dom@public.cloak) ("")
  265. # [18:59] * Quits: marcosc_ (~marcosc@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  266. # [19:05] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@public.cloak)
  267. # [19:08] * Quits: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  268. # [19:15] * Joins: chaals (~Adium@public.cloak)
  269. # [19:18] * terri_offline is now known as terri
  270. # [19:21] * Quits: Florian (~Florian@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  271. # [19:23] * Quits: jyasskin (~textual@public.cloak) ("My computer has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…")
  272. # [19:39] * Joins: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak)
  273. # [19:48] * Quits: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  274. # [20:25] * Joins: jyasskin (~textual@public.cloak)
  275. # [20:25] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (tantek)
  276. # [20:34] * Quits: chaals (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  277. # [20:36] * Quits: jyasskin (~textual@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  278. # [20:37] * Joins: Florian (~Florian@public.cloak)
  279. # [20:44] * Joins: jyasskin (~textual@public.cloak)
  280. # [20:45] * Quits: Florian (~Florian@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  281. # [21:35] * Joins: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak)
  282. # [21:35] * Quits: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  283. # [21:35] * Joins: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak)
  284. # [21:54] * Quits: paul___irish (~paul___irish@public.cloak) ("ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net")
  285. # [21:55] * Joins: paul___irish (~paul___irish@public.cloak)
  286. # [21:58] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@public.cloak) (sicking)
  287. # [21:59] * Quits: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  288. # [22:30] * Joins: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak)
  289. # [22:32] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@public.cloak)
  290. # [22:37] * Quits: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  291. # [22:40] * Joins: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak)
  292. # [22:43] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@public.cloak) (sicking)
  293. # [22:43] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@public.cloak)
  294. # [22:47] * Quits: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  295. # [22:54] * Joins: jsbell (~jsbell@public.cloak)
  296. # [23:40] * Joins: Florian (~Florian@public.cloak)
  297. # [23:40] * Joins: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak)
  298. # [23:42] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@public.cloak) (sicking)
  299. # [23:45] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@public.cloak)
  300. # [23:47] * Quits: Florian (~Florian@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  301. # [23:47] * Quits: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  302. # [23:52] * Joins: |orion (~orion@public.cloak)
  303. # Session Close: Thu Jul 09 00:00:00 2015

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