/irc-logs / w3c / #webapps / 2015-10-26 / end

Options:

# Session Start: Mon Oct 26 00:00:01 2015
# Session Ident: #webapps
# [00:07] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@public.cloak)
# [00:17] * Joins: kurosawa (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
# [00:18] * Joins: smaug (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
# [00:22] * Quits: kurosawa (~chatzilla@public.cloak) ("ChatZilla 0.9.90.1-rdmsoft [XULRunner 22.0/20130619132145]")
# [00:23] * Joins: Zakim (zakim@public.cloak)
# [00:23] * Joins: kurosawa (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
# [00:24] * xiaoqian zakim, agenda?
# [00:24] * Zakim sees nothing on the agenda
# [00:33] * Joins: jyasskin (~textual@public.cloak)
# [00:35] <xiaoqian> Zakim, this is Web Platform (WebApps) F2F Meeting @ TPAC 2015
# [00:35] <Zakim> got it, xiaoqian
# [00:37] <xiaoqian> rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight
# [00:37] <RRSAgent> ok, xiaoqian; I will not start a new log at midnight
# [00:38] * Joins: kurosawa_ (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
# [00:38] * Quits: kurosawa_ (~chatzilla@public.cloak) ("ChatZilla 0.9.90.1-rdmsoft [XULRunner 22.0/20130619132145]")
# [00:38] * Joins: kurosawa_ (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
# [00:39] * Quits: smaug (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [00:40] * Joins: zqzhang (~zqzhang@public.cloak)
# [00:42] * Quits: kurosawa (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [00:42] * kurosawa_ is now known as kurosawa
# [00:49] * Joins: tomoyuki (~tomoyuki@public.cloak)
# [00:49] * Joins: Sam_ (~Sam@public.cloak)
# [00:49] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@public.cloak) (sicking)
# [00:50] * Joins: nsakai2 (~nsakai2@public.cloak)
# [00:53] * Joins: katsu (~katsu@public.cloak)
# [00:53] * Joins: za12 (~androirc@public.cloak)
# [00:55] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@public.cloak)
# [00:56] * Joins: Hyunijn (~Hyunijn@public.cloak)
# [00:57] * Joins: wonsuk___ (~wonsuk@public.cloak)
# [00:58] * Joins: minami (~minami@public.cloak)
# [00:59] * Joins: jungkees (~uid24208@public.cloak)
# [01:00] * Joins: jsbell (~uid49876@public.cloak)
# [01:00] * Joins: Igarashi (~Igarashi@public.cloak)
# [01:01] * Joins: LJWatson (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
# [01:01] <jsbell> Present+ Joshua_Bell
# [01:01] * Quits: nsakai2 (~nsakai2@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [01:02] <timeless> scribe: timeless
# [01:02] <timeless> chair: chaals
# [01:02] * Joins: kawai (~kawai@public.cloak)
# [01:02] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [01:02] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [01:03] * Joins: rniwa (~textual@public.cloak)
# [01:03] * Joins: Arnaud_ (~Arnaud_@public.cloak)
# [01:03] * Joins: hellojintae (~hellojintae@public.cloak)
# [01:03] <timeless> chaals: good morning web platform WG
# [01:04] * Joins: dka (~dka@public.cloak)
# [01:04] <timeless> ... and guests
# [01:04] <timeless> ... we're looking for someone who can project the information on the screen
# [01:04] <timeless> ... someone prepared to offer to run a screen up here [front of room]
# [01:04] <timeless> ... not a big ask
# [01:04] * Joins: nsakai2 (~nsakai2@public.cloak)
# [01:05] <timeless> ... second request. People likely to speak about things, please come to the inner ring of seats
# [01:05] <timeless> ... that's easier if you're on the inner tables, and not the outer tables
# [01:05] <timeless> ... We have a laptop
# [01:05] <timeless> s/Travis: Hi!//
# [01:05] <timeless> s/Hi!//
# [01:05] <timeless> s/I'm gearing up for a trip to Japan this weekend!//
# [01:06] * Joins: kimwooglae (~kimwooglae@public.cloak)
# [01:06] <timeless> ... Here's a demonstration of why siting in the inside is helpful
# [01:06] * Joins: guillaume (guillaume@public.cloak)
# [01:06] <timeless> [ chaals leans across inner tables to retrieve a laptop ]
# [01:06] <timeless> chaals: first thing we want up on the screen is the agenda
# [01:06] * Joins: Mek (~quassel@public.cloak)
# [01:06] <timeless> s/Hey Gary. I just texted you, but you made it!//
# [01:06] * Joins: ygkim (~ygkim@public.cloak)
# [01:06] <timeless> ... does anyone have a laptop adapter cable?
# [01:06] <timeless> ... all you people w/ Macintosh devices
# [01:06] <timeless> s/Wow, maybe, it's rainy Sunday - Thursday of Sapporo according to weather forceast.//
# [01:07] <timeless> s/Mmm. Not great for walking. Are umbrellas a good choice?//
# [01:07] * Joins: kochi (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [01:07] <timeless> s/Not sure. 50%. Japanese weather forecaster uses "50%" when they're not sure if it will be actually rainy.//
# [01:07] <timeless> s/I'll be at Keio Plaza Sapporo.//
# [01:07] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [01:07] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [01:07] * Quits: za12 (~androirc@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [01:07] <timeless> ... anyone have HDMI to VGA adapter?
# [01:07] * Joins: mt_____ (~sid76@public.cloak)
# [01:07] <timeless> meeting: Web Platform WG F2F
# [01:08] * Joins: Florian (~Florian@public.cloak)
# [01:08] <timeless> ... we're using IRC for tracking this meeting
# [01:08] * Joins: za12 (~androirc@public.cloak)
# [01:08] <timeless> ... everything you say is public, will be written down, and used against you in the future
# [01:08] * Joins: Travis (~Travis@public.cloak)
# [01:08] * Joins: vivien (vivien@public.cloak)
# [01:09] * Quits: kurosawa (~chatzilla@public.cloak) ("ChatZilla 0.9.90.1-rdmsoft [XULRunner 22.0/20130619132145]")
# [01:09] * Joins: dom (dom@public.cloak)
# [01:09] <hober> present+ hober
# [01:09] <Travis> Present+ Travis_Leithead
# [01:09] <jungkees> Present+ Jungkee_Song
# [01:09] * Joins: karl (~karlcow@public.cloak)
# [01:09] <jyasskin> Present+ jyasskin
# [01:09] * Joins: falken (~uid20729@public.cloak)
# [01:09] <xiaoqian> scribe: xiaoqian
# [01:09] <LJWatson> present+ LJWatson
# [01:09] <jsbell> Present+ Joshua_Bell
# [01:09] <gsnedders> present+ gsnedders
# [01:09] * Joins: garykac (~garykac@public.cloak)
# [01:09] <mt_____> present+ Martin_Thomson
# [01:09] <Mek> Present+ Marijn_Kruisselbrink
# [01:09] <karl> present+ Karl_Dubost
# [01:09] * Joins: kenneth_ (~uid11141@public.cloak)
# [01:09] * Joins: kurosawa (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
# [01:09] * Joins: anssik (~uid10742@public.cloak)
# [01:09] <Arnaud_> Present+ Arnaud_Braud
# [01:09] <xiaoqian> chaals: the way we'll do this, it's a big group, it has just begun
# [01:09] <dom> Present+ Dominique_Hazael-Massieux
# [01:09] * Joins: masayuki (~masayuki@public.cloak)
# [01:09] <adrianba> Present+ Adrian_Bateman
# [01:09] <kimwooglae> Present+ kimwooglae
# [01:10] <xiaoqian> ... it has a lot of work that it covers
# [01:10] <xiaoqian> ... first, introductions
# [01:10] <anssik> Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen
# [01:10] <za12> Present+ Hiroyuki_Aizu
# [01:10] <kenneth_> Present+ Kenneth_Christiansen
# [01:10] <garykac> present+ Gary_Kacmarcik
# [01:10] <xiaoqian> ... in one minute or less, your name, what you're interested in
# [01:10] <Igarashi> Present+ Tatsuya_Igarashi
# [01:10] <xiaoqian> ... we don't need the details
# [01:10] <falken> Present+ Matt_Falkenhagen
# [01:10] * Joins: alia (~alia@public.cloak)
# [01:10] <xiaoqian> ... just which specs you'll want to talk about
# [01:10] <xiaoqian> chaals: chaals, I work for Yandex
# [01:10] * Joins: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak)
# [01:10] <xiaoqian> ... a cochair of this WG
# [01:10] <hober> present+ mjs
# [01:10] <xiaoqian> ... mostly interested in making sure it gets stuff published
# [01:11] <xiaoqian> LJWatson: XXX, TPG, YYY
# [01:11] * xiaoqian someone please fix
# [01:11] <alia> Present+ Ali_Alabbas
# [01:11] <vivien> present+ Vivien_Lacourba
# [01:11] <karl> s/XXX/Leonie Watson/
# [01:11] * Joins: ivan_ (~ivan@public.cloak)
# [01:11] * Joins: aizu (~aizu@public.cloak)
# [01:11] <xiaoqian> adrianba: Adrian Bateman, Microsoft, a cochair
# [01:11] * Joins: Kasar (~Kasar@public.cloak)
# [01:11] <aizu> Presetnt+ Hiroyuki_Aizu
# [01:11] <masayuki> Present+ Masayuki_Nakano
# [01:11] * Joins: yhirano_ (~uid40668@public.cloak)
# [01:12] <xiaoqian> jsoref: Josh Soref, scribe, invited expert
# [01:12] <xiaoqian> xiaoqian: xiaoqianX, team contact
# [01:12] * Joins: Jxck (~Jxck@public.cloak)
# [01:12] * Joins: Ari_Keranen (~Ari_Keranen@public.cloak)
# [01:12] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@public.cloak)
# [01:12] <xiaoqian> alia: QQQ, Microsoft, IndexedDB
# [01:13] <xiaoqian> jungkees: Jung Kee, Samsung, Service Workers, XHR Level 1
# [01:13] <xiaoqian> hober: Ted O Connor, Apple, lots of things
# [01:13] * Joins: JeffH (~JeffH@public.cloak)
# [01:13] <adrianba> s/QQQ/Ali Alabbas/
# [01:13] <xiaoqian> gsnedders: TTT, IE, testing everything
# [01:14] <gsnedders> s/TTT/Geoffrey Sneddon/
# [01:14] <xiaoqian> jyasskin: Jeffry Yasskin, Google, OOO
# [01:14] <jyasskin> s/OOO/Web Bluetooth/
# [01:14] * Joins: JakeA (~sid3836@public.cloak)
# [01:14] * JakeA waves
# [01:14] * dom waves back
# [01:14] <jyasskin> s/Jeffry/Jeffrey/
# [01:14] * Joins: wenyudong_CM (~wenyudong_CM@public.cloak)
# [01:14] <xiaoqian> kenneth_: Kenneth Christianson, Intel, manifests, webnfc
# [01:14] * Joins: wayne_carr (~wayne_carr@public.cloak)
# [01:14] * mt_____ timeless/xiaoqian: I'm going to type my own piece, so you don't have to
# [01:14] <xiaoqian> anssik: Anssi Koistanen, Intel, specs: editing web app manifest
# [01:14] * Joins: tyoshino (~sid19222@public.cloak)
# [01:15] <xiaoqian> annevk: Anne VK, Mozilla, Observer
# [01:15] <jsbell> (do we have audio? called in, it's awfully quiet)
# [01:15] <wayne_carr> Present+ Wayne_Carr
# [01:15] <xiaoqian> JakeA: Jake Arch, Google, Observer
# [01:15] * Joins: plh (plehegar@public.cloak)
# [01:15] * Quits: tyoshino (~sid19222@public.cloak) ("")
# [01:15] * tyoshino_ is now known as tyoshino
# [01:15] <annevk> s/Arch/Archibald/
# [01:15] <xiaoqian> mjs: Macie, Apple, most things
# [01:16] <anssik> s/Koistanen/Kostiainen/
# [01:16] <annevk> s/VK/van Kesteren/
# [01:16] <gsnedders> jsbell: going round room giving introductions
# [01:16] <xiaoqian> wenyudong_CM: Wenyu Dong, China Mobile, SSA
# [01:16] <mjs> s/Macie/Maciej/
# [01:16] <kenneth_> s/Christianson/Christiansen/
# [01:16] <xiaoqian> UUU: USQ, China Mobile, UUQ
# [01:17] * Joins: annbass (~annbass@public.cloak)
# [01:17] <xiaoqian> hellojintae: WePlanning
# [01:17] <hellojintae> weplanet
# [01:17] <JeffH> sodden thought -- have everyone type their own intro into here rather than burdening the scribe. . . .
# [01:17] <tyoshino> Present+ Takeshi_Yoshino
# [01:17] <mt_____> mt_____: Martin Thomson, Mozilla, Push &c
# [01:18] <nsakai2> Present+ Narumichi_Sakai
# [01:18] * annevk (before was Ari_Keranen)
# [01:18] <xiaoqian> Travis: Microsoft, Shadow DOM ...
# [01:19] <xiaoqian> garykac: Google
# [01:19] * Joins: mathieucitrix (~mathieucitrix@public.cloak)
# [01:19] <JeffH> JeffH: Jeff Hodges, PayPal, Observer
# [01:19] <xiaoqian> Masayuki: IME, Moz
# [01:20] <yhirano_> Yutaka Hirano, Google, interested in fetch & streams
# [01:20] <xiaoqian> @@: IE
# [01:20] <tyoshino> Takeshi Yoshino, Google, Fetch/Streams/XHR
# [01:20] <Hyunijn> Hyunjin, mtreecare
# [01:20] <xiaoqian> tyoshino: Google
# [01:21] * Quits: dka (~dka@public.cloak) (dka)
# [01:21] <kochi> Takayoshi Kochi, "kochi" on IRC, from Google, working on Shadow DOM
# [01:21] <falken> I'm Matt Falkenhagen, Google, service workers
# [01:21] * Quits: Jxck (~Jxck@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [01:21] * Quits: Florian (~Florian@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [01:21] <xiaoqian> Kochi: Google, Shadow DOM
# [01:21] * Joins: yusuke (~yusuke@public.cloak)
# [01:21] * Joins: Florian (~Florian@public.cloak)
# [01:21] <Kasar> Kasar Masood, VIACOM, General interest in web technologies (observer)
# [01:22] <dom> Dominique Hazael-Massieux, W3C Staff, observer
# [01:22] * Joins: JF (~JF@public.cloak)
# [01:22] <Arnaud_> Arnaud_ : Arnaud Braud , Orange, Push and any Api interacting with the network
# [01:22] <xiaoqian> annbass: Free agent, observing
# [01:22] <xiaoqian> LiuXin: Alibaba
# [01:22] <wenyudong_CM> @xiaoqian Wei YU, China Mobile. Wenyu DONG, China Mbile, APIs relevant telecommunication
# [01:22] <xiaoqian> @Zhang: Alibaba
# [01:22] <kimwooglae> KIM WOOGLAE, Inswave
# [01:23] <xiaoqian> Zhiqiang: Intel
# [01:23] <karl> karl: Karl Dubost, Mozilla, everything about Web Compatibility (observer)
# [01:23] * Joins: paulc (~paulc@public.cloak)
# [01:23] <paulc> present+ paulc
# [01:23] <xiaoqian> ken@: Moz
# [01:23] <aizu> Hiroyuki Aizu, TOSHIBA, interested in Shadow DOM and Service workers etc.
# [01:24] <xiaoqian> Jing: Huawei
# [01:24] * Joins: dka (~dka@public.cloak)
# [01:24] <mathieucitrix> Mathieu Hofman, Citrix, Observer
# [01:24] <Mek> Mek: Marijn Kruisselbrink, Google, Service Workers etc
# [01:24] <katsu> Katsuyoshi Naka, Panasonic, interested in WoT
# [01:24] <xiaoqian> paulc: Co chair of HTMLWG
# [01:24] <guillaume> present+ guillaume
# [01:24] <vivien> Vivien Lacourba, W3C Staff, observer
# [01:25] <xiaoqian> guillaume: W3C staff
# [01:25] <annevk> jsbell: still there?
# [01:25] <nsakai2> Narumichi Sakai, Toshiba, interested in Shadow DOM and Service Worker
# [01:25] <jyasskin> jsbell: Are you still trying to listen?
# [01:25] * Joins: hyojin__ (~hyojin@public.cloak)
# [01:25] <jsbell> yes
# [01:25] <annevk> jsbell: can you hear something?
# [01:26] <jsbell> nope
# [01:26] <jsbell> (yes, listening; nope on audio)
# [01:26] <annevk> jsbell: someone is looking into it
# [01:26] <jsbell> thanks
# [01:27] <xiaoqian> chaals: (to IT support) we need to investigate webex audio problem
# [01:27] <jsbell> (calling in, not there in person) Joshua Bell, Google, Indexed DB
# [01:27] <xiaoqian> topic: Agenda
# [01:27] <xiaoqian> chaals: plan is to not spend more than 1 hour at a time in the meeting room
# [01:27] <xiaoqian> ... we have a range of topics, some we can postpone
# [01:27] <xiaoqian> ... how many people are members of web platform. please raise your hand
# [01:27] * Zakim xiaoqian, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
# [01:28] <xiaoqian> ... please raise your hand
# [01:28] * Zakim xiaoqian, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
# [01:28] <xiaoqian> chaals: how many people were in web apps?
# [01:28] <xiaoqian> ... please raise your hands
# [01:28] * Zakim xiaoqian, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
# [01:28] <xiaoqian> ... same people ish
# [01:28] <xiaoqian> chaals: if you're an invited expert and want to know how to get reinvited
# [01:28] <xiaoqian> ... it isn't automatic
# [01:28] <xiaoqian> ... web platforms has responsibility for most of HTML
# [01:29] <xiaoqian> ... and whatever W3C decides to develop in HTML
# [01:29] <xiaoqian> ... it's unclear what we will with HTML
# [01:29] * Joins: yuwei (~yuwei@public.cloak)
# [01:29] <xiaoqian> ... I'll run a session on Wednesday talking about that
# [01:29] * LJWatson email team-webplatform@w3.org to contact the co-chairs.
# [01:29] <xiaoqian> ... if people are desperate to talk about it, we could add an agenda item
# [01:29] <xiaoqian> ... HTML Editing
# [01:29] <wenyudong_CM> zakim
# [01:29] <xiaoqian> ... an area of work, about fixing .contentEditable
# [01:29] <xiaoqian> [ WebEx breaks into room ]
# [01:30] <xiaoqian> chaals: they're not here yet, so not on agenda for today
# [01:30] <xiaoqian> ... tomorrow, a breakout group will work on Service Workers
# [01:30] <xiaoqian> jgraham: we'll work through the issues in Service Worker, and improvements to core, Fetch, lifecycle, cache api
# [01:30] <wenyudong_CM> Zakim, who is here?
# [01:30] <Zakim> Present: Joshua_Bell, hober, Travis_Leithead, Jungkee_Song, jyasskin, LJWatson, gsnedders, Martin_Thomson, Marijn_Kruisselbrink, Karl_Dubost, Arnaud_Braud,
# [01:30] <Zakim> ... Dominique_Hazael-Massieux, Adrian_Bateman, kimwooglae, Anssi_Kostiainen, Hiroyuki_Aizu, Kenneth_Christiansen, Gary_Kacmarcik, Tatsuya_Igarashi, Matt_Falkenhagen, mjs,
# [01:30] <Zakim> ... Ali_Alabbas, Vivien_Lacourba, Masayuki_Nakano, Wayne_Carr, Takeshi_Yoshino, Narumichi_Sakai, paulc, guillaume
# [01:30] <Zakim> On IRC I see yuwei, hyojin__, dka, paulc, JF, Florian, yusuke, mathieucitrix, annbass, plh, wayne_carr, wenyudong_CM, JakeA, JeffH, annevk, Ari_Keranen, yhirano_, Kasar, aizu,
# [01:30] <Zakim> ... ivan_, mjs, alia, masayuki, anssik, kurosawa, kenneth_, garykac, falken, karl, dom, vivien, Travis, za12, mt_____, kochi, ygkim, Mek, guillaume, kimwooglae, nsakai2,
# [01:30] <Zakim> ... hellojintae, Arnaud_, rniwa, kawai, LJWatson, Igarashi, jsbell, jungkees, minami, wonsuk___, Hyunijn, shepazu, katsu, Sam_, tomoyuki, zqzhang, jyasskin, Zakim, dgrogan,
# [01:30] <Zakim> ... krijnhoetmer, raucao
# [01:30] <xiaoqian> ... unlikely to discuss background sync or push
# [01:31] <xiaoqian> chaals: potential topics: CSS, Shadow DOM
# [01:31] <xiaoqian> ... ES modules in HTML
# [01:31] <xiaoqian> ... I believe there are other topics people are interested in
# [01:31] <xiaoqian> ... we'll try to put that on the agenda
# [01:31] <jsbell> (audio appears to be fixed, thx)
# [01:31] <xiaoqian> ... if you have a topic you'd like to add, please put your hand up
# [01:31] * Zakim xiaoqian, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
# [01:32] <xiaoqian> hober: constraints, rsuniwa would like to be here for Web Components (tomorrow) -- he's at WebPerf today,
# [01:32] <xiaoqian> ... we'd like someone to call in for ES Modules from Cupertino, so tomorrow morning
# [01:33] <kochi> s/rsuniwa/rniwa/
# [01:33] <xiaoqian> chaals: if someone could get npdoty
# [01:33] <kochi> or "Ryosuke Niwa"
# [01:33] * rniwa also would like to invite his colleague from Cupertino
# [01:33] * rniwa over telecon/videoconf
# [01:33] * hober rniwa: yeah, just covered that
# [01:33] <xiaoqian> chaals: we'd like PSIG at some point (npdoty?)
# [01:33] <xiaoqian> ... other topics/specs?
# [01:34] <xiaoqian> Travis: 10 mins to talk about Design Guidelines draft
# [01:34] <dom> s/PSIG/PING/
# [01:34] * xiaoqian oops
# [01:34] * dom hopes nobody wants to meet with the patent and standards IG here :)
# [01:34] <xiaoqian> alia: IndexedDB v2 and status
# [01:34] <xiaoqian> ... directory upload proposal (currently in incubatory)
# [01:34] * Joins: jeff (Jeff@public.cloak)
# [01:35] <xiaoqian> annevk: slot on Fetch+Streams
# [01:35] * Joins: JonathanJ (~JonathanJ@public.cloak)
# [01:35] <xiaoqian> ... if group is small, ~2 hours, it's a combined topic, not separate
# [01:35] * Quits: JonathanJ (~JonathanJ@public.cloak) ("http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client")
# [01:35] * Joins: justin__ (~justin@public.cloak)
# [01:35] <xiaoqian> ... we asked ArtB if we could do between 10-12
# [01:35] <xiaoqian> chaals: spec update, break, fetch+streams
# [01:35] <xiaoqian> ... if you take two hours, you get two sessions
# [01:36] <xiaoqian> adrianba: Joint meeting w/ Web Annotation
# [01:36] <xiaoqian> chaals: oh, and joint meeting w/ Aria
# [01:36] <xiaoqian> ... CSS/Shadow DOM, tomorrow afternoon
# [01:36] <xiaoqian> ... ES module imports for tomorrow morning
# [01:36] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@public.cloak)
# [01:36] <xiaoqian> ... HTML modularisation for the rest
# [01:37] <xiaoqian> [ no responses for baiting ]
# [01:37] <xiaoqian> chaals: how many people are interested in both Web Components and Service Workers v1?
# [01:37] <xiaoqian> hober: I clash, but that's fine
# [01:37] <xiaoqian> chaals: ok, tomorrow for both (concurrently?)
# [01:37] <xiaoqian> ... how long for ES Modules?
# [01:37] <xiaoqian> hober: less than an hour
# [01:38] <xiaoqian> ... do Web Components unrelated to CSS right before CSS agenda
# [01:38] <xiaoqian> chaals: CSS+Shadow DOM ~1 hour
# [01:38] <xiaoqian> ... how many people going to AC meeting tomorrow?
# [01:38] <xiaoqian> ... ~3
# [01:38] <xiaoqian> ... ok,
# [01:38] <xiaoqian> ... doesn't affect group, good, but it affects me, but adrianba can chair
# [01:39] <xiaoqian> ... today: web components after lunch
# [01:39] <xiaoqian> ... we'll retweak timinig
# [01:39] <xiaoqian> s/timinig/timing/
# [01:39] <xiaoqian> ... current assumes 90 mins in a row, which is too long
# [01:39] <xiaoqian> topic: Pub Status
# [01:39] <xiaoqian> chaals: we'll look at what it is web platform is going to work on
# [01:40] <timeless> scribe: timeless
# [01:40] * MikeSmith waves from Tokyo
# [01:40] <timeless> chaals: can i put api design first
# [01:40] <timeless> ... fetch and streams
# [01:40] * Quits: garykac (~garykac@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [01:40] <timeless> ... web annotation has asked for a joint meeting/time
# [01:40] <timeless> ... we'll wrap around that
# [01:41] <timeless> ... we may renegotiate w/ aria
# [01:41] <timeless> ... and then directory upload when we get to it
# [01:41] <timeless> ... anyone who had a request that I ignored or forgot?
# [01:41] <timeless> [ none ]
# [01:41] <timeless> topic: Publication Status
# [01:41] <timeless> chaals: HTML postponed
# [01:41] <timeless> ... clipboard API + events
# [01:41] <timeless> ... we have an editor
# [01:42] <timeless> ... we have someone working on a test suite
# [01:42] <jsbell> https://www.w3.org/WebPlatform/WG/PubStatus
# [01:42] <timeless> ... every spec we make needs more tests, even if it has a lot, we almost certainly need more
# [01:42] <timeless> ... we're always looking for someone to write/review tests
# [01:42] <timeless> ... for each spec I mention, i'd hope someone would volunteer to work on tests for it
# [01:43] <timeless> ... we don't have a status report, halvard works on it on/off
# [01:43] <timeless> ... DOM Level 3 Keyboard Events
# [01:43] * annbass waves at MikeSmith
# [01:43] <timeless> Travis: exciting things are happening here
# [01:43] <timeless> ... Mozilla is implementing, Google is implementing, MS will hopefully catch up
# [01:43] <timeless> ... small spec, mostly scan codes/key codes for characters/virtual keys
# [01:44] <timeless> chaals: no test facilitator
# [01:44] <timeless> ... anyone want to write/collect/review tests
# [01:44] <timeless> Travis: we have masayuki who documented on MDN page the various mappings
# [01:44] <timeless> chaals: if we could link that, it'd be good
# [01:44] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [01:44] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [01:44] <wenyudong_CM> RRSagent, draft minutes
# [01:45] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html wenyudong_CM
# [01:45] <timeless> Travis: DOM Parsing and Serialization
# [01:45] <timeless> ... in CR, we have several bugs, I'm writing tests
# [01:45] <timeless> ... next, write implementation report once they get through the web platform process
# [01:45] <yuwei> who
# [01:45] <timeless> ... at least one implementations pass each test
# [01:45] <timeless> chaals: impls, but not clean
# [01:46] * Joins: sangwhan (~sid12645@public.cloak)
# [01:46] <timeless> chaals: File API, arun has been working on this for longer than Web Apps has existed
# [01:46] * Quits: paulc (~paulc@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [01:46] <timeless> ... test implementer, need help, more than a decade in the making, fairly small, looking for volunteers
# [01:46] * Joins: JonathanJ (~JonathanJ@public.cloak)
# [01:46] <timeless> Travis: not voluteering
# [01:46] <timeless> ... has this spec seen a lot of churn recently?
# [01:46] <timeless> ... why just WD?
# [01:47] <timeless> chaals: churn recently, slow progress because stuff only happens once a year
# [01:47] * Joins: jeff_ (Jeff@public.cloak)
# [01:47] * Joins: annbass_ (~annbass@public.cloak)
# [01:47] <timeless> ... lack of progress is lack of people working on it
# [01:47] <timeless> chaals: File System API, long standing item, we don't know
# [01:47] <jsbell> (lost audio again)
# [01:47] <timeless> ... if anyone would like to work on an item, you could work on it
# [01:47] <timeless> ... you could be famous
# [01:47] <timeless> chaals: Find Text api, we'll talk w/ Web Annotation later
# [01:48] <timeless> ... Gamepad, we have a spec, it's moving along
# [01:48] <timeless> ... IndexedDB
# [01:48] * Quits: za12 (~androirc@public.cloak) ("AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )")
# [01:48] <timeless> alia: is jsbell on the call?
# [01:48] <jsbell> I can't hear any more :( Take it away, alia
# [01:48] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [01:48] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [01:48] <timeless> ... there's quite a bit of work for v2
# [01:48] <timeless> ... incorporating, documenting features,
# [01:48] * Joins: za12 (~androirc@public.cloak)
# [01:48] <timeless> ... working to contiguous IDL
# [01:49] <timeless> ... changing algorithms so they're more imperative
# [01:49] * xiaoqian jsbell, could you try dial-in again? We just fixed the WebEx prob
# [01:49] <timeless> ... looking for people to review, ensure nothing is broken,
# [01:49] <timeless> ... looking for people to look into Promise version
# [01:49] <timeless> chaals: Impl Status?
# [01:49] <timeless> alia: some parts of v2 are already in Firefox and now Chrome, otherwise, no change
# [01:49] * Quits: kawai (~kawai@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [01:50] <timeless> chaals: anyone know implementers, who might be convinced to upgrade?
# [01:50] <timeless> [ Silence ]
# [01:50] * Joins: kawai (~kawai@public.cloak)
# [01:50] * Quits: kimwooglae (~kimwooglae@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [01:50] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [01:50] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [01:50] * Quits: annbass (~annbass@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [01:50] * Quits: JeffH (~JeffH@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [01:50] <timeless> chaals: absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, some people don't work in public
# [01:50] <timeless> ... IME
# [01:50] <timeless> Travis: Editing TF is looking once again at this area
# [01:50] * Quits: tomoyuki (~tomoyuki@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [01:51] <timeless> ... in ML, they've even talked about specifying IME behaviors
# [01:51] <timeless> chaals: IME causes big problems for Editors
# [01:51] * Quits: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [01:51] <timeless> ... but it's a system/platform level thing that might interfere w/ browsers
# [01:51] <timeless> ... people also write Browser-based IMEs
# [01:51] * Quits: Ari_Keranen (~Ari_Keranen@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [01:51] <timeless> ... our audience uses Russian+English together
# [01:51] <timeless> ... Manifests for Web Apps
# [01:52] <timeless> MMM: basically stable
# [01:52] * wayne_carr {sound from room is off for me. though I can hear someone else)
# [01:52] <timeless> ... implemented in Firefox, MS
# [01:52] * Joins: wonsuk_ (~wonsuk@public.cloak)
# [01:52] <timeless> chaals: how to standardize Browser Extensions?
# [01:53] * Quits: wonsuk___ (~wonsuk@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [01:53] <timeless> ... we could use Manifests for this
# [01:53] * Joins: ijongcheol (~ijongcheol@public.cloak)
# [01:53] <timeless> ... Jenny Tenisson proposed ....
# [01:53] * Joins: Florian_ (~Florian@public.cloak)
# [01:53] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [01:53] <timeless> ... anyone know what happened, did it die? people proposed HTTP2?
# [01:53] * Quits: Florian (~Florian@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [01:53] <gsnedders> s/Jenny/Jeni/
# [01:53] <timeless> ... Digital Pub?
# [01:53] * Quits: plh (plehegar@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [01:53] * Quits: guillaume (guillaume@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [01:53] * Quits: jeff (Jeff@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [01:53] * Quits: Arnaud_ (~Arnaud_@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [01:53] * xiaoqian s/MMM/kenneth_
# [01:53] <timeless> ... Pointer Lock
# [01:53] <timeless> ... blocked on implementation?
# [01:54] <timeless> ... no one mentioned it
# [01:54] <timeless> ... we won't talk about it
# [01:54] * gsnedders is there any reason to ACTION corrections? has this changed with the death of Zakim?
# [01:54] <timeless> ... Push API
# [01:54] <timeless> gsnedders: pretty active
# [01:54] * Quits: dka (~dka@public.cloak) (dka)
# [01:54] * timeless action = trackbot
# [01:55] <@Yves> re: packaging - the "performance" aspect of it is not the right angle anymore (there are better ways), but interest from digital publishing and secutiry use cases, so spec is not dead yet
# [01:55] <gsnedders> That wasn't me. I don't know who it was.
# [01:55] <timeless> chaals: Quota Management
# [01:55] <timeless> ... TAG?
# [01:55] * @Yves (sorry, not in the room yet, will join soon)
# [01:55] <timeless> chaals: Screen Orientation
# [01:55] <timeless> ... chugging away?
# [01:55] <timeless> ... Selection API
# [01:55] * Joins: dka (~dka@public.cloak)
# [01:55] <timeless> ... part of stuff that goes into Editing
# [01:55] <timeless> ... editors select things
# [01:55] <timeless> ... it's pretty horrible and messy
# [01:55] <timeless> ... they'll meet on Wednesday
# [01:55] <timeless> ... Service Workers
# [01:56] * Joins: plh (plehegar@public.cloak)
# [01:56] <timeless> ZZZ: heading to v1, shipping in Chrome, Firefox is getting close
# [01:56] <timeless> chaals: people are using it on the web
# [01:56] <timeless> ZZZ: there's a Crossword
# [01:57] <timeless> jungkees: we'll push candidate Rec after TPAC
# [01:57] <falken> s/ZZZ/JakeA
# [01:57] <timeless> ... there was a CfC
# [01:57] <timeless> s/ZZZ/JakeA/
# [01:57] <timeless> ... confident to publish a CR soon
# [01:57] <karl> slightly related to screenorientation, window.orientation for Web Compat issues https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/mozilla.dev.platform/N3i7Yc2UpR0
# [01:57] <timeless> ... Samsung will also ship Service Workers soon
# [01:57] <timeless> s/we'll/Service Workers - we'll/
# [01:57] <timeless> chaals: if you have issues w/ Service Workers, tell them NOW
# [01:58] <timeless> ... UI Events
# [01:58] <timeless> Travis: new name, hoping to start a revival
# [01:58] * @Yves note that there will be a SW meeting tomorrow
# [01:58] <timeless> ... lots of bugs
# [01:58] <timeless> ... primarily focused on testing of the spec
# [01:58] * Quits: justin__ (~justin@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [01:58] <timeless> ... cleaning out the old testsuite test
# [01:58] <timeless> ... focusing on interop/questions
# [01:58] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [01:58] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [01:59] <timeless> ... novelty is in keyboard events
# [01:59] <timeless> ... focus/mouse is pretty stable
# [01:59] <timeless> s/Travis: And I'm at the Renessance hotel.//
# [01:59] <timeless> CXX: input events
# [01:59] <timeless> ... a few things were moved out
# [02:00] <timeless> ... one we're hoping to address is "beforeInput" and "input"
# [02:00] * xiaoqian s/CXX/GaryC
# [02:00] <timeless> chaals: that goes to Editing, we'll talk on Wednesday
# [02:00] * Quits: jeff_ (Jeff@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [02:00] <timeless> ... URL, annevk: that's in WHAT WG?
# [02:00] <timeless> ... Web IDL ... mjs?
# [02:00] <gsnedders> s/gsnedders: pretty active/AAX: pretty active/
# [02:01] * annbass_ is now known as annbass
# [02:01] <timeless> Travis: I've been working w/ yeves.. getting an old pr from heycam
# [02:01] * Quits: Florian_ (~Florian@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [02:01] <timeless> ... hoping to get that wrapped up and checked in this week
# [02:01] * xiaoqian s/yeves/yves
# [02:01] <timeless> ... that will unblock the tests to get the level 1 of WebIDL, and get that published to REC
# [02:01] <timeless> chaals: Web Sockets
# [02:01] <timeless> xiaoqian: for features implemented, we'll publish at the end of this year or beginning of next year
# [02:02] <timeless> ... current Implementation Report, we have some small things
# [02:02] <timeless> ... Web Workers, same ...
# [02:02] <timeless> ... I know people are still adding some new features, but we may publish a REC for the stable features
# [02:02] <timeless> ... still CfC, and evolving
# [02:02] <timeless> chaals: XHR Level !
# [02:02] <timeless> s/!/1/
# [02:02] * Joins: Florian_ (~Florian@public.cloak)
# [02:03] <timeless> jungkees: we're not actively working on it, the gap is pretty huge spec wise
# [02:03] <timeless> ... I didn't here anything from VVV
# [02:03] <timeless> ... probably publish a NOTE
# [02:03] <timeless> ... like to hear opinions
# [02:03] <timeless> chaals: a NOTE, not a REC?
# [02:03] * Joins: garykac (~garykac@public.cloak)
# [02:03] <timeless> jungkees: I don't think moving to REC makes real sense here
# [02:03] * Quits: aizu (~aizu@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [02:03] <timeless> ... annevk is working on XHR Living Standard, it's now using Fetch
# [02:04] <timeless> ... we could try to make it compatible in some level, because it's APIs
# [02:04] * Joins: guillaume (guillaume@public.cloak)
# [02:04] <timeless> ... but the behavior/implementation is pretty different, I don't know how much value it makes
# [02:04] <timeless> chaals: this is documentation on what is interoperable and widely implemented
# [02:04] <timeless> jungkees: a lot of work to make it happen, no one is working on it
# [02:04] <timeless> chaals: we're unlikely to bother making this a complete REC
# [02:05] <timeless> ... as a content producer, is this the spec you'd rely on if you wanted broad interop
# [02:05] <timeless> ... what do people who need to ship to the wide web implement against?
# [02:05] <timeless> jungkees: I haven't checked the latest changes, but there should be quite a few changes...
# [02:05] <timeless> chaals: annevk: what's the impl status of the new/incompatible/different
# [02:05] <timeless> ... is the whatwg stuff speculative, or would it work today?
# [02:06] <timeless> annevk: 50/50
# [02:06] <timeless> chaals: enough of an answer
# [02:06] <timeless> ... two questions: is there value to creating a REC
# [02:06] <timeless> ... how far is the spec from publishable, some work required? need someone to work on it to make it publishable
# [02:06] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [02:06] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [02:06] <timeless> chaals: to everyone here who isn't a browser producer
# [02:06] <timeless> ... if you're publishing to the web, you need specs, need specs that tell you what you can do
# [02:07] * Quits: minami (~minami@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [02:07] <timeless> ... browser vendors in this WG tend to say what they want, have well thought ideas
# [02:07] <timeless> ... content producers don't do that, and should be
# [02:07] <timeless> ... if there's a failure in the group, it's that we don't have enough input from people who want to produce content
# [02:07] <timeless> ... Web Component specs?
# [02:07] <timeless> ... they're being worked on
# [02:07] <timeless> ... whose on WebEx? just jsbell ?
# [02:08] * Quits: kurosawa (~chatzilla@public.cloak) ("ChatZilla 0.9.90.1-rdmsoft [XULRunner 22.0/20130619132145]")
# [02:08] <timeless> Travis: Custom Elements has proposals for locking down when parsing happens
# [02:08] <timeless> ... synchronicity, core to spec, talking about those later
# [02:08] <timeless> ... Shadow DOM, active implementation happening
# [02:08] <timeless> ... in Safari and Chrome
# [02:08] <timeless> ... Microsoft has stated we want to get started
# [02:08] * Joins: kurosawa (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
# [02:08] <timeless> ... not a lot of big blocking issues
# [02:08] <timeless> chaals: HTML Imports
# [02:09] <timeless> ... Mozilla says they're not interested
# [02:09] <timeless> Travis: I think we need a conversation about that
# [02:09] <timeless> ... maybe talk about that in ES Modules
# [02:09] <timeless> chaals: push resolution to tomorrow
# [02:09] <timeless> ... Recs in maintenance mode
# [02:09] <timeless> ... sometimes they go out of date
# [02:09] <timeless> ... that's our specs
# [02:09] <timeless> ... next agenda item is API Design
# [02:09] <timeless> ... we'll talk about that after a short break
# [02:10] <timeless> ... welcome yves, staff contact
# [02:10] <timeless> ... come back in the next 20 minutes
# [02:10] <timeless> [ Break ]
# [02:10] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [02:10] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [02:10] * Joins: JeffH (~JeffH@public.cloak)
# [02:10] <jsbell> (dropping off now, thanks for kicking the audio a few times, folks)
# [02:10] * Joins: justin (~justin@public.cloak)
# [02:10] <timeless> s/Let's have a status update!//
# [02:10] <timeless> s/I'm arriving in Sapporo late Saturday.//
# [02:10] * Quits: jsbell (~uid49876@public.cloak) ("")
# [02:11] * Quits: kochi (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [02:11] <timeless> s/I moved the bugs over to github//
# [02:11] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [02:11] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [02:12] <timeless> s/Status update:/Status update: I moved the bugs over to github/
# [02:12] * Quits: ijongcheol (~ijongcheol@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [02:12] <timeless> s/garykac: ...from bugzilla.//
# [02:12] * Quits: hellojintae (~hellojintae@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [02:12] * Quits: Florian_ (~Florian@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [02:12] * Joins: ijongcheol (~ijongcheol@public.cloak)
# [02:13] <xiaoqian> zakim, who is here?
# [02:13] <Zakim> Present: Joshua_Bell, hober, Travis_Leithead, Jungkee_Song, jyasskin, LJWatson, gsnedders, Martin_Thomson, Marijn_Kruisselbrink, Karl_Dubost, Arnaud_Braud,
# [02:13] <Zakim> ... Dominique_Hazael-Massieux, Adrian_Bateman, kimwooglae, Anssi_Kostiainen, Hiroyuki_Aizu, Kenneth_Christiansen, Gary_Kacmarcik, Tatsuya_Igarashi, Matt_Falkenhagen, mjs,
# [02:13] <Zakim> ... Ali_Alabbas, Vivien_Lacourba, Masayuki_Nakano, Wayne_Carr, Takeshi_Yoshino, Narumichi_Sakai, paulc, guillaume
# [02:13] <Zakim> On IRC I see ijongcheol, justin, JeffH, kurosawa, guillaume, garykac, plh, dka, wonsuk_, kawai, za12, annbass, JonathanJ, sangwhan, sicking, yuwei, hyojin__, JF, yusuke,
# [02:13] <Zakim> ... mathieucitrix, wayne_carr, wenyudong_CM, JakeA, yhirano_, Kasar, ivan_, alia, masayuki, anssik, kenneth_, falken, karl, dom, vivien, Travis, mt_____, ygkim, Mek, nsakai2,
# [02:13] <Zakim> ... rniwa, LJWatson, Igarashi, jungkees, Hyunijn, shepazu, katsu, Sam_, zqzhang, jyasskin, Zakim, dgrogan, krijnhoetmer, raucao, logbot, ElijahLynn, scheib, krit, tobie, cwilso,
# [02:13] <Zakim> ... slightlyoff, timeless
# [02:14] * Quits: garykac (~garykac@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [02:14] * Joins: Florian_ (~Florian@public.cloak)
# [02:14] <timeless> s/over to github/from bugzilla over to github/
# [02:14] * Quits: ivan_ (~ivan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [02:15] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [02:15] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [02:15] <timeless> s/garykac: I will be staying at Keio hotel.//
# [02:15] * Quits: guillaume (guillaume@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [02:15] * Quits: Hyunijn (~Hyunijn@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [02:16] * Quits: JonathanJ (~JonathanJ@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [02:17] * Joins: kimwooglae (~kimwooglae@public.cloak)
# [02:17] * Quits: Kasar (~Kasar@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [02:18] * Joins: npdoty_ (npdoty@public.cloak)
# [02:19] * Joins: azu (~azu@public.cloak)
# [02:19] * Quits: ijongcheol (~ijongcheol@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [02:19] * Parts: azu (~azu@public.cloak)
# [02:20] * Parts: nsakai2 (~nsakai2@public.cloak)
# [02:20] <npdoty_> I'd love to come chat with Web Platform WG. per earlier conversation, I hope you're not inviting me to talk about patents
# [02:21] * Quits: yuwei (~yuwei@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [02:23] * Quits: dka (~dka@public.cloak) (dka)
# [02:26] * Joins: hellojintae (~hellojintae@public.cloak)
# [02:26] * Joins: ijongcheol (~ijongcheol@public.cloak)
# [02:33] * Quits: npdoty_ (npdoty@public.cloak)
# [02:36] <Travis> http://w3ctag.github.io/design-principles/
# [02:37] <LJWatson> TOPIC: API design principles
# [02:37] * Joins: webapp-projects (~webapp-projects@public.cloak)
# [02:37] * Quits: za12 (~androirc@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [02:37] <Travis> http://w3ctag.github.io/design-principles/
# [02:37] <LJWatson> Travis: Spec contains information that hasn't previously been documented before.
# [02:38] * Joins: akeranen (~akeranen@public.cloak)
# [02:38] <xiaoqian> scribe: LJWatson
# [02:38] <LJWatson> ... Want to share it here and solicit feedback.
# [02:38] <jyasskin> (It's *so bad* that Travis had to join the TAG to learn about these documents.)
# [02:38] * Quits: kurosawa (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [02:38] <Travis> https://github.com/w3ctag/design-principles/issues
# [02:38] <LJWatson> ... It provides guidance on what to do and what not to do when designing an API.
# [02:38] <JakeA> Travis: should this link to or even incorporate https://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/promises-guide
# [02:39] <LJWatson> Chaals: Who is editing an API?
# [02:39] * Joins: yuwei (~yuwei@public.cloak)
# [02:39] <LJWatson> ... About 12. How many have read this spec?
# [02:39] <LJWatson> ... About none.
# [02:40] <LJWatson> .. Is the TAG reviewing APIs against this doc?
# [02:40] <LJWatson> Travis: Implicitly, yes.
# [02:40] * Joins: dka (~dka@public.cloak)
# [02:40] <LJWatson> CMN: Would like to request the TAG does use this doc when reviewing APIs.
# [02:40] <LJWatson> Travis: We'll take it under consideration.
# [02:41] <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
# [02:41] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html LJWatson
# [02:41] * Joins: kochi (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [02:41] <LJWatson> TOPIC: Streams and Fetch
# [02:41] <LJWatson> Anne: Whoever is interested in Fetch and Streams, is welcome to join our breakout.
# [02:42] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@public.cloak)
# [02:43] <LJWatson> scribenick: LJWatson
# [02:43] <JeffH> sodden thot: someone in AnneVK's fetch huddle ought to scribe
# [02:43] * Joins: paulc (~paulc@public.cloak)
# [02:43] <paulc> test
# [02:44] * Joins: kurosawa (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
# [02:44] * Joins: Joe_ (~Joe@public.cloak)
# [02:45] <LJWatson> Anne: Fetch now has support for streaming of responsive ???
# [02:45] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@public.cloak) (sicking)
# [02:45] * Quits: justin (~justin@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [02:46] <webapp-projects> s/responsive ???/response bodies
# [02:46] <LJWatson> YHI: We think it's useful to have user contructed responses.
# [02:46] <webapp-projects> scribeNick: webapps-projects
# [02:46] * Quits: dka (~dka@public.cloak) (dka)
# [02:46] <webapp-projects> Jake: what is the alternative?
# [02:46] <LJWatson> Jake: What's the alternative?
# [02:47] * Joins: npdoty_ (npdoty@public.cloak)
# [02:47] <webapp-projects> AvK: we have request object, response object, both have a body that in theort is a stream.\
# [02:47] * Joins: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak)
# [02:47] * Joins: guillaume (guillaume@public.cloak)
# [02:47] <webapp-projects> ... lifecycle is you apss a request to a fetch that returns a promise for a response object, and that has access to teh body stream in some way.
# [02:48] <adrianba> s/apss/pass/
# [02:48] <adrianba> s/teh/the/
# [02:48] <webapp-projects> with service workers the lifecycle gets bigger - it gets the requests nad you can manipulate the response that can be used by whatever gets the response.
# [02:48] <webapp-projects> ... except websocket doesn't integrate
# [02:48] <adrianba> s/nad/and/
# [02:48] <webapp-projects> TL: is the response object finite?\
# [02:48] <webapp-projects> AvK: No, it is an HTTP response - if the connection satays iopen, possible in theory, it could be infinite.\
# [02:49] <webapp-projects> TL: you get an object and notice when ythere is more info?
# [02:49] <webapp-projects> AvK: Fetch returns a response object when the headers have been received, and has an accessor to get the body. Currently very simplistic.
# [02:49] <webapp-projects> ... they require finite streams because otherwise the promises will never resolbe and you run out of memory.
# [02:49] <webapp-projects> ... but we assiume ingfinite memory in specs...
# [02:49] * Joins: ivan_ (~ivan@public.cloak)
# [02:50] <webapp-projects> ... question is: we have body exposed as a stream for response.
# [02:50] * Joins: neochoon (~neochoon@public.cloak)
# [02:50] <webapp-projects> ... what do we do next. should we expose request.body as well?
# [02:50] <webapp-projects> ... I think XXX was syugesting we extend response constructors to enable passing in a n object.
# [02:50] * Joins: ctwcpinc (~ctwcpinc@public.cloak)
# [02:51] <webapp-projects> Jake: in fetch spec, request the body.
# [02:51] <webapp-projects> AvK: Body is the entire thing, and there is a separate body on entire stream.
# [02:51] * Joins: justin (~justin@public.cloak)
# [02:51] <webapp-projects> YY: We have body but only response has the bofy property
# [02:51] <webapp-projects> AvK: Until we figure out the design.
# [02:52] <webapp-projects> TL: in medai capture they are looking at recording a media stream. A potentially infinite stream you want to capture in pieces over time. THey have a model that seems to work for that.
# [02:52] <webapp-projects> Matthew: media not using streams, they should consider that. It is very different. Streams can be used for other cases in media.
# [02:52] <webapp-projects> TL: I know media are not considered a specigic data format so you can't just suck bytes off and use them.
# [02:53] <webapp-projects> ..JS: seems tehre are 2 questions - how do we stream a request, how do we create a response object with a JS-controlled stream as its body
# [02:53] <webapp-projects> AvK: Yes.
# [02:53] * Joins: dka (~dka@public.cloak)
# [02:53] <webapp-projects> ... you want to create a request and access its body as a stream.
# [02:53] <webapp-projects> JS: Stream has a readable constructor, obvious thing would be to let body be one of those.
# [02:53] <webapp-projects> AvK: there is also a writable stream - which one?
# [02:54] * Joins: Hyunjin (~Hyunjin@public.cloak)
# [02:54] <webapp-projects> MJS: How do you create a request - are they inputs to the API created by the user?
# [02:54] <webapp-projects> looks like the constructor takes another request, or a string that I assume is the URL.
# [02:54] <webapp-projects> ... how do I make a request with my own stuff?
# [02:54] <webapp-projects> AvK: There is a second argument.
# [02:54] <webapp-projects> MJS: OK, I see. If one of the options was a readable stream, it seems like that would so it.,
# [02:55] <webapp-projects> AvK: There are some outstanding things in the strerams spec about writeable vs readable.
# [02:55] <webapp-projects> MJS: from th request, the point is reading it - the interface is a readable stream beacuse they have to read it to issue the request.
# [02:55] <webapp-projects> AvK: Not sure if we want to get into the request discussion now. one thing is you pass a request to fetch and it clones the request.
# [02:55] <webapp-projects> ... then you need to do something special with the stream
# [02:56] * Joins: za12 (~androirc@public.cloak)
# [02:56] <webapp-projects> ... we ideally want the stream you get to be the low-level socket. To get a handle on that you want to expose it the moment you use the fetch method, or you have an abstraction stream that pipes into it.
# [02:56] * Quits: wonsuk_ (~wonsuk@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [02:56] <webapp-projects> MJS: For request? seems that stream doesn't directly represent an undertlying socket, just a custom way of provifding data. Are you taking the request from the network?
# [02:57] * Joins: wonsuk_ (~wonsuk@public.cloak)
# [02:57] <webapp-projects> ... seems like for the common use case producing a complicated long request being assembled, it isn't common that there is an underlying single socket.
# [02:57] <webapp-projects> Avk: If you request from a server the OS opens a connection. then you write bytes to it.
# [02:57] <jyasskin> Zakim: JS is me
# [02:57] <webapp-projects> MJS: The implementation is reading from the stream and writing to the socket.
# [02:57] <webapp-projects> AvK: you might want to expose that socket to directly access what is going in
# [02:58] <webapp-projects> MJS: Suspect strongly that is a premature optimisaiton. In webkit we pass abstract stream objects as part of a request, e.g. posting a form with files - we don't want to pre-compose the body in memory.
# [02:58] <webapp-projects> never sseemed to be a bottleneck that we are doing this instead of reading then writing.
# [02:58] <webapp-projects> ... think for the common case the person making teh request porovides the stream leaves you with th cloning problem,...
# [02:59] <webapp-projects> AVK: The cloning problem isn't a big thing.
# [02:59] <webapp-projects> ... thin domenic wanted to expose the lowest level to JS
# [02:59] <webapp-projects> MJS: real level network APIs for URLS don't expose that. Ones for servers might, because you're bound by your ability to get from disk to IO.
# [02:59] <webapp-projects> ... ther are many things that are lower level than you would expose from JS, like pull in this file afterwards.
# [03:00] <webapp-projects> ??: We have that operation in the streams spec.
# [03:00] <webapp-projects> ... you can dump a readable to a writeable stream.
# [03:00] <webapp-projects> MJS: so in theory that could optimise if we knew the pieces?
# [03:00] <dom> s/??/jyasskin/
# [03:00] <webapp-projects> JS: Stream has a blocking system so if data is waiting and not observed by others, think the browser can optimise the stream reading.
# [03:01] <webapp-projects> MJS: API is designed to copy from readable to writeable streams. so seems like provising a readable stream makes sense.
# [03:01] <webapp-projects> ... don't think it makes sense to provide a writeable stream, you give a cllbakc that creates something and that seems like weird.
# [03:01] <adrianba> s/cllbakc/callback/
# [03:01] <webapp-projects> ... you have to have dataprovidesr giving a readable stream not being given a writeable stream. Otherwise thye are a callback that gives a writeable stream.
# [03:02] <webapp-projects> matt: design would create a pair - a writeable stream that writes to a readable stream.
# [03:02] <webapp-projects> Jake; In the streams spec as a transform stream - a writeable and a readable stream.
# [03:02] <webapp-projects> XXX This is the identity transform sctream
# [03:02] <jyasskin> https://streams.spec.whatwg.org/#ts
# [03:03] <dom> s/sctream/stream/
# [03:03] * Quits: mathieucitrix (~mathieucitrix@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [03:03] <webapp-projects> Martin: THink maciej is right on readable stream.
# [03:03] <webapp-projects> ... this is how you plumb the thing - readable stream comes from a request, you pipe that to the request. Having identity transform solves the problem.
# [03:03] <webapp-projects> ... retunring to clone, consider the clone happening and that prodeuces a stream from the clone and that is the primitive fetch uses, so explain fetch in terms of the streams it has, makes it easy to model.
# [03:04] <dom> s/retunring/returning/
# [03:04] <webapp-projects> the JSON consumes the stream and produces a JSON body.
# [03:04] <timeless> s/prodeuces/produces/
# [03:04] <webapp-projects> ... seems simple, has anyone written it up?
# [03:04] <falken> s/XXX/tyoshino/
# [03:04] <webapp-projects> MJS:" Cloning is tricky because if you want to issue the request more than once, if you clone a request with transient information and it disappears, you have a problem.
# [03:04] <webapp-projects> ... all other request bodies don't have that issue.
# [03:04] <webapp-projects> ... maybe 3 ways round.
# [03:04] <jyasskin> We need a "tee" operation.
# [03:05] <webapp-projects> ... 1, make it invalid to replay a stream request - sucks.
# [03:05] <webapp-projects> ... 2 instead of a stream you provvide a cllback to make the stream on demand, and you can produce the stream more than once if required.
# [03:05] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [03:05] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [03:05] <webapp-projects> ... another is to fork a stream and catch the data in the middle but I think that defeats the purpose of having a stream, e.g. not ahving to hold the whole thing in memry
# [03:05] <timeless> i/Welcome everyone!/scribe: Travis/
# [03:05] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [03:05] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [03:06] <webapp-projects> AvK: We already neuter requests after first use. But there si a clone operation, and we would have to throw an exception if the request depended on a readable stream or we could tee - maybe that is somewhat reasonable.
# [03:06] <webapp-projects> Jake: Clone request so it can replay the post for a redirect?
# [03:06] <timeless> s/We also have two repros for key and code/... We also have two repros for key and code/
# [03:06] <webapp-projects> AvK: No, it is sort of to reset a set of potentially problematic features for service workerrs. that we don't want fetch to use
# [03:07] <webapp-projects> Jake: No case of post body being sent?
# [03:07] <timeless> s|https://github.com/w3c/DOM-Level-3-Events-code this is the code one.|... https://github.com/w3c/DOM-Level-3-Events-code this is the code one.|
# [03:07] <webapp-projects> AVK: Yes there is but it isn't the reason we did this.
# [03:07] <webapp-projects> ... need to add different headers in a later stage, you need to replay in redirect or auth dialogs. So we would also need to change and tee for thiose cases.
# [03:07] <timeless> s/scribeNick: webapps-projects/scribeNick: webapp-projects/
# [03:07] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [03:07] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [03:07] <webapp-projects> ... that makes request harder - need to decide what to do in network layer
# [03:08] <webapp-projects> MJS: No way to tee an arbitrary stream?
# [03:08] <webapp-projects> Martin: you can always ...
# [03:08] * Joins: garykac (~garykac@public.cloak)
# [03:08] <timeless> s/never sseemed/... never seemed/
# [03:08] <webapp-projects> MJS: I assume we can't afford to assume infinite memory in reality. You may be able to tee with participation of the stream, that can be used to build another vrion, but if you are reading live from the network there is no way to tee because you don't know if you will get that back
# [03:09] <timeless> s/Jake; In the streams/Jake: In the streams
# [03:09] <webapp-projects> matt: don't think we should tee automatically. You might run out of memory teeing on request, but at least you asked for that.
# [03:09] <webapp-projects> ... think the request issue is latency - start sedning something fast, not to avoid memory use.
# [03:09] <falken> s/matt/jyasskin/
# [03:09] <timeless> s/ This is the i/: This is the i/
# [03:09] <webapp-projects> MJS: If that isn't th primary design goal, you should still include "don't catch everything in memory"
# [03:10] <timeless> s/the JSON consumes the stream and produces a JSON body./... the JSON consumes the stream and produces a JSON body./
# [03:10] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [03:10] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [03:10] <webapp-projects> AVK: Request body is a stream today ignoting JS stream, unless redicrects are disabled and no dialogs, the request will need to be teed for compat. We could have a special case that if you pass a readable stream you can't auth or redirect, but
# [03:10] <webapp-projects> MJS: that would be a fail
# [03:10] <webapp-projects> AVK: and then you would have to tee.
# [03:10] <timeless> s/looks like the constructor/... looks like the constructor/
# [03:11] <webapp-projects> MJS: Even if you expose body as a atream, the inputs are all data objects, only JS streams raise a concept of teeing because other stuff you can clone without cloning the stream.
# [03:11] <webapp-projects> AVK: you can implement in various ways. In spec defined as a te operation.
# [03:11] <webapp-projects> MJS: If it was a tee as gd described, start from where you are, it isn't that it resets at the start
# [03:11] <webapp-projects> AVK: Yeah tee happens at the start.
# [03:11] * Quits: npdoty_ (npdoty@public.cloak)
# [03:11] <webapp-projects> MJS: So if you tee, read all through nd read other stuff....
# [03:11] <dom> s/gd/jeffrey/
# [03:11] <timeless> i/Travis: Spec contains/scribe: LJWatson/
# [03:12] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [03:12] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [03:12] <webapp-projects> ... want to suggest alternative. instead of providing custom implementor-readable stream you provide a function that can produce one on demand when you send. that can have state to enable reproduction of the stream and might be more useful than geenric tee, or giuve a way to tee using a custom tee on request.
# [03:12] <webapp-projects> AVK: reditrects are not exposed, they might bring a security risk of sorts.
# [03:13] <timeless> s/scribe: LJWatson/scribe: _LJWatson/
# [03:13] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [03:13] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [03:13] <webapp-projects> MJS: you expose that request is played more than once. might mean a reditrect or ultipple issuing the requst, doesn't seem like a big deal.
# [03:13] <timeless> s/scribe: _LJWatson//
# [03:13] <webapp-projects> AVK: You can tell the redirect happened, not how often but you can get the info of howmany times it redirected...
# [03:13] * Joins: npdoty_ (npdoty@public.cloak)
# [03:13] <webapp-projects> Jake: What does progress do with redirect?
# [03:13] <webapp-projects> ... in XHR
# [03:13] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [03:13] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [03:13] <webapp-projects> AvK: You can tell from completion.
# [03:14] <webapp-projects> Jake: We say streams instead of progress events. so with a request the cloning at the start means we lose the ability to use those for progess events? Does the stream get read to completion before sending?
# [03:14] <webapp-projects> AVK: Don't know...
# [03:14] <timeless> s/with service workers the lifecycle/... with service workers the lifecycle/
# [03:14] <webapp-projects> jake: It oulwd be good to use stream to indicate progress of an upload. tricky if you redirect and replay
# [03:14] <webapp-projects> AVK: like MJS design of callback design
# [03:15] <webapp-projects> ake: ditto..
# [03:15] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [03:15] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [03:15] <webapp-projects> AVK: That opens option for writeabl streams, you get th reight notification when you need it
# [03:15] <timeless> s/writeabel/writeable/
# [03:15] <webapp-projects> TL: with writeabel you an write any time. with readable stream you want to ensure the same content gets reread but that isn't guaranteed.
# [03:16] <timeless> s|s/writeabel/writeable/||
# [03:16] <timeless> s/writeabl/writeable/
# [03:16] <timeless> s/th reight/the right/
# [03:16] <webapp-projects> MJS: callback version with readable stream, if impl. is well optimised you have produced an identity stream, and can be just as efficient as writng to an underlying writeable to which readable is being copied.\
# [03:16] <webapp-projects> ... in theory writing to an identity pair should be as effiencnt as wwriting directly to a writeable,
# [03:17] <webapp-projects> Jake: Travis' point could be a security iffue if you send different info to each point along the redirrect chain you could use that to expliore
# [03:17] <webapp-projects> s/Jake/martin
# [03:17] <webapp-projects> ... don't like that. You post somethign that will get redirected, and post something different each time it gets bounced to track its path ...
# [03:17] <timeless> s/syugesting/suggesting/
# [03:18] <webapp-projects> ... haven't come up with an attack through that, but if we are trying to make redirect uninspectable, this breaks that.
# [03:18] <timeless> s/bofy property/body property
# [03:18] <webapp-projects> AVK: security teams would need to consider if that is acceptable. If not we are back to teeing or only first request works...
# [03:18] <timeless> s/medai capture/media capture/
# [03:18] <timeless> s/THey/They
# [03:18] <webapp-projects> TL: if it is a readable stream the impl could ensure that the stream has to be identical and block extra state.
# [03:19] * Joins: jeff_ (Jeff@public.cloak)
# [03:19] <webapp-projects> JS: If we we create streams, and if redirect happens on request, and that is called inservice worker and that chain should be caught in service worker?
# [03:19] <falken> s/JS/yhirano/
# [03:19] <webapp-projects> AVK: Service worker doesn't ge access to redirects. ONly if request was made with redirect mode manual, then worker doesn't get the destination, and subsequent requests don't go to the service worker.
# [03:20] <timeless> s/..JS/... JS/
# [03:20] <webapp-projects> ... can generate a redirect, but can't trap one out of the network.
# [03:20] <timeless> s/seems tehre/seems there/
# [03:20] <webapp-projects> ... has to be same origin. opaque redirect design for browser navigation.
# [03:20] <timeless> s/ahving/having/
# [03:20] <timeless> s/memry/memory
# [03:21] <timeless> s/there si a/there is a/
# [03:21] <webapp-projects> ... click on a and service worker moves it to b, and passes that to the page and the browser can poke inside and make the requst that it wanted. Only in same origin case though.
# [03:21] * timeless mjs what's " vrion" in: I assume we can't afford to assume infinite memory in reality. You may be able to tee with participation of the stream, that can be used to build another vrion, but if you are reading live from the network there is no way to tee because you don't know if you will get that back
# [03:22] <timeless> s/th primary/the primary
# [03:22] <webapp-projects> AVK: seems based on this, for requsts using a readable stream as input wher we keep teeing would be fine, a callback approach would be interesting to investigae but might collapse in security review. with overloading you can find the callback - we can make that work.
# [03:22] <timeless> s/ignoting/ignoring/
# [03:22] <webapp-projects> ... maybe special parameter for the callbaclk...
# [03:22] <timeless> s/redicrects/redirects/
# [03:22] <webapp-projects> ... what is teh problem with making request.body work - I goret.
# [03:22] <dom> s/goret/forget/
# [03:22] <timeless> s/reditrects/redirects/
# [03:22] * mjs timeless, I am not 100% sure , probably "version" from context
# [03:22] <dom> s/teh/the/
# [03:22] <webapp-projects> JS: One, redirect issue, and it is not well-aligned with current fetch spec.
# [03:23] <webapp-projects> ... need to modify fetch algorithm, and didn't want to do that.
# [03:23] <dom> s/callbaclk/callback/
# [03:23] <timeless> s/reditrect or ultipple/redirect or multipple
# [03:23] <webapp-projects> AVK: how does it relate to redirect, reading request.body ?
# [03:23] <timeless> s/howmany/how many
# [03:23] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [03:23] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [03:23] <webapp-projects> ... think you only get that if you pass in custom stream to a request
# [03:23] * wenyudong_CM slaps xiaoqian around a bit with a large fishbot
# [03:24] * dcooney____ is now known as dcooney
# [03:24] <webapp-projects> JS: maybe, but if we use the bosy.request and we use JS treams generally, we cannot assume that body is replyaable
# [03:24] <falken> "JS" above is Yutaka Hirano (yhirano)
# [03:24] <webapp-projects> MT: so if we can read request body from service worker we need a way to recreata a stream or tee it. Think safest think is to automaticeally tee at starting point.
# [03:24] <timeless> s/It oulwd/It would/
# [03:24] * Joins: mhakkinen (~mhakkinen@public.cloak)
# [03:24] <webapp-projects> ... return the automatic tee. Wy own't that work?
# [03:24] <webapp-projects> Jake: Why instead of clone?
# [03:24] <webapp-projects> s/Jake/AR/
# [03:25] <timeless> s/writeabel/writeable/
# [03:25] <webapp-projects> MT": discussin what a clone is in implementation - it would be a tee.
# [03:25] <webapp-projects> ... or mjs suggested a stream factory insterad of the stream.
# [03:25] <timeless> s/writng/writing
# [03:25] <webapp-projects> ... same machinery
# [03:25] <timeless> s/iffue/issue
# [03:25] <timeless> s/somethign/something
# [03:25] <webapp-projects> MJS: seems weird that a requst is a body instead of having a boy. Why is that?
# [03:25] <webapp-projects> AVK: Body mixin is a set of utilities on a requst
# [03:26] <dom> s/requst/request/
# [03:26] <webapp-projects> MJS: Body isn't being a body it is methods you have if you have a body?
# [03:26] <webapp-projects> MJA. hmmmm
# [03:26] <webapp-projects> AVK: yeah
# [03:26] * dom BodyHandler
# [03:26] <timeless> s/requst/request
# [03:26] <webapp-projects> AVK: mixins are useful, call it waht you want - hasbody?
# [03:26] <timeless> s/requst/request
# [03:26] <timeless> s/wher we/where we
# [03:26] <timeless> s/investigae/investigate
# [03:27] <webapp-projects> MJS: looking at methods, it seems like ti would make sense to have a body rather than be a body. request.JSON doesn't seem to express "getting the body as JSON" request.body.JSON seems to make more sense
# [03:27] * timeless "brev-ity" not "breaf-ity" :)
# [03:27] <timeless> s/ti would/it would/
# [03:27] <webapp-projects> AVK: we havd longer names and people don't like them so we went for shorter.
# [03:27] <webapp-projects> ... considered a tier of object but that brings lifecycle issues.
# [03:27] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [03:27] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [03:27] <webapp-projects> ... wanted to use body object for an actual stream, rather than being a pie of helper methods
# [03:27] <webapp-projects> MJS: Seems weird for readability.
# [03:28] <webapp-projects> ... response.text - what wil that give, status and body, or what? Seems a bit unintuitive.
# [03:28] <webapp-projects> ... think brevity will imit this to experts and others will find it hard
# [03:28] * Joins: jeff__ (Jeff@public.cloak)
# [03:28] <timeless> s/repros/repositories/
# [03:29] <timeless> s/Presetnt/Present
# [03:29] <webapp-projects> JS: We will have arbitrary consumers, so consuming and generating stream will have a shorthand for consuming streams and generating data. So keeping nmaes short is important
# [03:29] <webapp-projects> ... like stream consumers rather than heading and response.
# [03:29] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@public.cloak) ("My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…")
# [03:30] <webapp-projects> MJS: if you come back with body stream and consume that makes sense but these are not on the stream they are on teh requst or response and seems weirtd
# [03:30] <webapp-projects> Jake: XHR does this - there is precendent
# [03:30] * Quits: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak) (mjs)
# [03:30] <webapp-projects> EOC: is that a good precedent?
# [03:30] <webapp-projects> MJS: No.
# [03:30] * Joins: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak)
# [03:30] * Joins: riju (~riju@public.cloak)
# [03:30] <webapp-projects> MT: Think basic idea could be a readable stream has all the body mixin attrivbutes
# [03:30] <webapp-projects> MJS: That would be amuch more readable API...
# [03:30] * mt_____ annevk: I opened https://github.com/whatwg/fetch/issues/143
# [03:30] <webapp-projects> ... .body produces that stream
# [03:31] <webapp-projects> AVK: We went there to start and decided not to go there
# [03:31] <webapp-projects> MJS: if there is a way to get a readable stream doesn't it make sense to have the helper methods on that stream?
# [03:31] <webapp-projects> Jake: we didn't know if it would be possible to have it taht way when we strated.
# [03:32] <timeless> s/WePlanning/JinTae Yu, WePlanet/
# [03:32] <webapp-projects> ... either we have requst.JSON or requst.body, or requst.body.JSON and request.body.stream
# [03:32] <webapp-projects> MJS: Does that reasonaing still apply?
# [03:32] <timeless> s/weplanet//
# [03:32] <webapp-projects> AR: We have multiple shipping implementations of fetch., Don't think there is opposition to figuring out whether streams should have those methods. removing existing mthods on response seem sorthogonals
# [03:33] <webapp-projects> Avk: think domonic was opposed to having helper methods on teh stream stuff.
# [03:33] <webapp-projects> s/mon/men
# [03:33] <dcooney> *domenic
# [03:33] <webapp-projects> ... so we decided to put themon requst response. should be clear from context what these are for.
# [03:33] <timeless> s/UUU/yuwei/
# [03:33] <timeless> s/USQ/Yu Wei/
# [03:33] <webapp-projects> ... you see around teh code what is going on when you use the methods...
# [03:33] <webapp-projects> ... thgink it should be clear.
# [03:33] <adrianba> s/domonic/domenic/
# [03:33] <webapp-projects> MJS: ot convinced names are good, convinced they are shipping.
# [03:33] * Quits: Travis (~Travis@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [03:34] <timeless> s/sodden/sudden/
# [03:34] <anssik> s/ont/not/
# [03:34] <webapp-projects> TL: any future reason to be able to get the rest of the text?
# [03:34] * Quits: annbass (~annbass@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [03:34] <webapp-projects> ... that would be a problem.
# [03:34] <hober> s/ot/not/
# [03:34] <anssik> s/ot/not/
# [03:34] <webapp-projects> Jake: you might want a serialisation to put ito a dB
# [03:34] <webapp-projects> MJS: you could make thhe names go the other way, mint response.headerText.
# [03:34] * Joins: nsakai_ (~nsakai@public.cloak)
# [03:34] <webapp-projects> AVK: would not be prmoisey things.
# [03:34] * Joins: annbass (~annbass@public.cloak)
# [03:35] <timeless> s/Masayuki: IME/Masayuki: Masayuki Nakano, IME/
# [03:35] * Quits: jyasskin (~textual@public.cloak) ("My computer has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…")
# [03:35] * Quits: jeff_ (Jeff@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [03:35] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [03:35] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html timeless
# [03:35] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [03:36] * Quits: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak) (mjs)
# [03:37] * Quits: hellojintae (~hellojintae@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [03:39] * Quits: paulc (~paulc@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [03:39] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@public.cloak)
# [03:41] * Joins: tomoyuki (~tomoyuki@public.cloak)
# [03:42] * Florian_ is now known as Florian
# [03:42] * Quits: kimwooglae (~kimwooglae@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [03:43] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@public.cloak) ("My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…")
# [03:43] * Quits: alia (~alia@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [03:43] * npdoty_ is now known as npdoty
# [03:43] * Quits: Hyunjin (~Hyunjin@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [03:44] * Joins: bkardell_ (~uid10373@public.cloak)
# [03:45] * Joins: Hyunjin (~Hyunjin@public.cloak)
# [03:45] * Quits: riju (~riju@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [03:46] * Joins: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak)
# [03:46] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@public.cloak)
# [03:47] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@public.cloak) ("My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…")
# [03:48] * Quits: guillaume (guillaume@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [03:48] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@public.cloak)
# [03:49] * Joins: azaroth (~azaroth@public.cloak)
# [03:50] * Joins: David_clarke (~David_clarke@public.cloak)
# [03:50] * Joins: takeshi (~takeshi@public.cloak)
# [03:50] * Joins: Travis (~Travis@public.cloak)
# [03:50] <timeless> scribe: timeless
# [03:50] <timeless> topic: Find Text API
# [03:51] <azaroth> Present+ Rob_Sanderson
# [03:51] * Joins: clapierre (~clapierre@public.cloak)
# [03:51] <@Yves> Present+ Yves_Lafon
# [03:51] * Joins: ivan (ivan@public.cloak)
# [03:51] * Joins: fsasaki (fsasaki@public.cloak)
# [03:51] * Joins: bigbluehat (~sid632@public.cloak)
# [03:51] <fsasaki> present+ fsasaki
# [03:51] <bigbluehat> present+ Benjamin_Young
# [03:51] <ivan> Present+ Ivan_Herman
# [03:51] <clapierre> Present+ Charles_LaPierre
# [03:51] <takeshi> Present+ Takeshi_Kanai
# [03:51] * Joins: r12a (rishida@public.cloak)
# [03:51] * Joins: hellojintae (~hellojintae@public.cloak)
# [03:51] <timeless> s/Mbile/Mobile
# [03:51] * Joins: rhiaro_ (~quassel@public.cloak)
# [03:51] * Quits: Sam_ (~Sam@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [03:52] <rhiaro_> present+ rhiaro
# [03:52] <David_clarke> present+ David_clarke
# [03:52] * Joins: circ-user-Ffbt7 (~circuser-Ffbt7@public.cloak)
# [03:52] <timeless> shepazu: Doug Sheppers, W3C, Spec Editor
# [03:52] <timeless> ... this is the Find Text API
# [03:52] <timeless> [ Projected, URL? ]
# [03:52] * circ-user-Ffbt7 is now known as kbx
# [03:52] <rhiaro_> w3.org/TR/findtext
# [03:52] <timeless> shepazu: we take a JSON object
# [03:52] * Quits: Hyunjin (~Hyunjin@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [03:52] <azaroth> URL: http://www.w3.org/TR/findtext/
# [03:52] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@public.cloak) ("My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…")
# [03:53] <timeless> ... create a findText object, set parameters of what you want to find
# [03:53] <timeless> ... and execute the search
# [03:53] <timeless> ... we have search() -- incremental, and searchAll() -- find all at once
# [03:53] <timeless> ... you can search for Text (string), prefix+suffix (arbitrary number of characters before/after text)
# [03:53] * Joins: jyasskin (~textual@public.cloak)
# [03:53] <timeless> ... e.g. if you're searching in a poem/song that has repetition, you might ask for a prefix to disambiguate
# [03:54] <timeless> ... i'll show an example
# [03:54] * timeless azaroth will you drop a link for the section?
# [03:54] <timeless> ... here we have a poem
# [03:54] <timeless> ... "rage rage against the dying of the light"
# [03:54] <timeless> ... repeated several times
# [03:54] <azaroth> Discussing example 1: http://w3c.github.io/findtext/#example-1
# [03:54] <timeless> s/rage rage/Rage, rage/
# [03:54] <timeless> ... I want to find the second time
# [03:55] <timeless> ... If I want to find ... a prefix might be "Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,"
# [03:55] <timeless> ... or "Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,"
# [03:55] <timeless> ... these disambiguate
# [03:55] <timeless> ... they're not part of the selection
# [03:55] <timeless> ... then, there's a .scope, it sets the scope to be within that element
# [03:56] <timeless> ... this could limit the search to an editing interface, excluding the chrome of your app
# [03:56] <timeless> ... then you have the traditional options that you'd have in a find text dialog
# [03:56] <timeless> ... case folding, whole word, wrap
# [03:56] <timeless> ... if I search for "godel" it could find "Gödel"
# [03:57] <timeless> ... then there's fuzzy matching
# [03:57] <timeless> ... to handle a document that has changed
# [03:57] <timeless> chaals: does this find rendered text?
# [03:57] <timeless> ... does it collapse dom node boundaries?
# [03:57] <timeless> shepazu: yes
# [03:57] <timeless> ... first, it collapses the .scope down
# [03:58] <timeless> ... then it does unicode normalization/case folding
# [03:58] <timeless> chaals: so you can't find markup?
# [03:58] <timeless> shepazu: correct, it doesn't find markup,
# [03:58] <timeless> ... and it returns a DOMRange of the selection
# [03:58] <timeless> ... matching the search
# [03:59] <timeless> shepazu: if you have SVG where things are randomly in the document
# [03:59] <timeless> ... where you have 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
# [03:59] * Quits: tomoyuki (~tomoyuki@public.cloak) (tomoyuki)
# [03:59] <timeless> s/shepazu/chaals/
# [03:59] <timeless> shepazu: if you use CSS to reorder how things are, then your document won't be as searchable
# [03:59] <timeless> ... it doesn't matter how it's ordered
# [03:59] * Quits: jyasskin (~textual@public.cloak) ("My computer has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…")
# [03:59] <timeless> ... presumably you select some text (to select the text to seek)
# [04:00] <timeless> ... and search for that
# [04:00] <timeless> chaals: the other case is HTML Tables
# [04:00] <timeless> shepazu: yes, that's an interesting case, and we should have an issue for it
# [04:00] <timeless> ... if you want to select a column, and how you serialize that is an open issue
# [04:00] <timeless> chaals: it comes up where you have multirange selection
# [04:00] <timeless> ... how many people have multirange selection
# [04:01] <timeless> ... JS Editors use multirange selection
# [04:01] <timeless> shepazu: the point of my bringing this to this WG
# [04:01] <timeless> ... it was originally in Web Apps
# [04:01] <timeless> ... we talked about it at TPAC last year
# [04:01] <timeless> ... it was just published recently under Web Annotation and Web Platform
# [04:01] <timeless> ... every browser has Find in Page
# [04:01] * Quits: ivan (ivan@public.cloak) ("My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…")
# [04:01] * Joins: ivan (ivan@public.cloak)
# [04:01] <timeless> ... we're looking for Browser vendors to talk to us about how we can improve this
# [04:01] <timeless> ... and how we can get this implemented
# [04:02] <timeless> ... and do it in a performant way
# [04:02] <timeless> Travis: I see you have a search algorithm
# [04:02] <timeless> shepazu: which is terrible by the way
# [04:02] <timeless> Travis: do you describe how to transform the DOM Tree into searchable text?
# [04:02] <timeless> ... or is that left up to the implementations?
# [04:02] <timeless> shepazu: in the spec, I say you serialize it according to .innerHTML from DOM4
# [04:03] <timeless> ... but I got feedback that there are other ways to serialize that might be better for search
# [04:03] <adrianba> q?
# [04:03] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [04:03] <timeless> ... I can't remember what they suggested
# [04:03] <timeless> ... the question of serialization might be another spec
# [04:03] <mjs> q+
# [04:03] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
# [04:03] <timeless> Travis: in the Incubator WG, they started work on a spec for .innerText
# [04:03] <timeless> ... "serialize text how it shows up on the screen"
# [04:03] * Quits: ijongcheol (~ijongcheol@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [04:03] * Quits: kbx (~circuser-Ffbt7@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [04:03] <timeless> shepazu: which might include css text
# [04:03] * Joins: Arnaud (~Arnaud@public.cloak)
# [04:04] <timeless> Travis: and as a precond, we might need a Spec for how to go from a Tree into a linear set
# [04:04] <timeless> ... people might need that
# [04:04] * Quits: garykac (~garykac@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [04:04] <timeless> ... I think there's room to layer on top of that
# [04:04] <timeless> shepazu: I'm happy to help other specs
# [04:04] <timeless> ... I'd like to layer on some other set of specs
# [04:04] <timeless> Travis: just bringing that up
# [04:04] <timeless> ... if you don't have that, you'll have trouble w/ interop
# [04:04] <adrianba> ack next
# [04:04] * Zakim sees mjs at the head of the speaker queue
# [04:04] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [04:04] * Quits: Florian (~Florian@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [04:04] <timeless> mjs: looking at this quickly
# [04:04] <timeless> ... some possibly overly basic questions
# [04:05] * Joins: Sam_ (~Sam@public.cloak)
# [04:05] * timeless as traditional for mjs
# [04:05] <timeless> ... what is expected to implement the findText interface?
# [04:05] <timeless> ... is this on Window, or Document?
# [04:05] <timeless> shepazu: I expect Document, but I don't know where it best lives
# [04:05] <timeless> mjs: I see findText() is an EventTarget
# [04:05] <timeless> ... is that because it dispatches events?
# [04:05] <timeless> shepazu: that's probably my bad specing, it evolved
# [04:05] <timeless> ... it should be Promise() based
# [04:06] * Quits: nsakai_ (~nsakai@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [04:06] <timeless> mjs: for available params, I think
# [04:06] <timeless> q+ timeless for MS Word
# [04:06] * Zakim sees timeless on the speaker queue
# [04:06] <timeless> ... I've never seen something so complicated
# [04:06] <timeless> ... does anyone actually want to use all of these options?
# [04:07] <adrianba> q?
# [04:07] * Zakim sees timeless on the speaker queue
# [04:07] * Quits: npdoty (npdoty@public.cloak)
# [04:07] <timeless> shepazu: this isn't exclusively for the Find Text dialog
# [04:07] <timeless> ... it's also for Annotation
# [04:07] <timeless> ... where you want to select something, pass the url to a friend so that the friend can find it again
# [04:07] <timeless> mjs: that sort of makes sense
# [04:08] <timeless> ... although to sort of handle that UC, I think you need a way to serialize that
# [04:08] <timeless> shepazu: that's a different spec
# [04:08] <timeless> mjs: edit distance is tricky, I don't think browsers have that concept
# [04:08] * Joins: npdoty (npdoty@public.cloak)
# [04:08] <timeless> ... generally, I think RegExp might be enough, expressing some of these might be tricky with RegExp
# [04:09] <timeless> ... case insensitivity, prefix, suffix, might be
# [04:09] <timeless> shepazu: I'd love to do this with RegExp
# [04:09] <timeless> ... but there's a matter of User Friendliness
# [04:09] <timeless> s/Annotation/Annotation (Robust Anchoring)/
# [04:10] <timeless> chaals: for Robust Anchoring, You need a serialization you can pass around
# [04:10] <timeless> ... these seem to be a set of helper methods, you pick the ones you like, and leave out the others
# [04:10] * Quits: jeff__ (Jeff@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
# [04:10] <timeless> ... most of these could map down to RegExp, but most people can't do that
# [04:10] <timeless> ... this sits on tap, implementation might drop down to RegExp
# [04:10] <azaroth> Re Robust Anchoring, it's #6 in our charter: http://www.w3.org/annotation/charter/
# [04:10] <timeless> mjs: seems like this API is great and optimized for Robust Anchoring
# [04:10] <timeless> ... but crappy for Find In Page
# [04:11] * Joins: paulc (~paulc@public.cloak)
# [04:11] <timeless> shepazu: number of params isn't interesting, you include or don't include
# [04:11] * Joins: ijongcheol (~ijongcheol@public.cloak)
# [04:11] <timeless> mjs: having a struct w/ dozens of params makes an API hard to understand
# [04:11] <adrianba> rrsagent, make minutes
# [04:11] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html adrianba
# [04:11] <timeless> ... find RegExp or find WildCard
# [04:11] <timeless> ... exists in Find in Page
# [04:11] <paulc> There are LOTS of other search features for full-text search. For a language example see in a W3C spec see http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/REC-xpath-full-text-10-20110317/
# [04:11] <timeless> ... from the narrow perspective
# [04:12] <timeless> ... it has a bunch of things I haven't seen, and is missing some I expect
# [04:12] <timeless> ... I see overlap
# [04:12] <timeless> shepazu: I'd love to consider it
# [04:12] <timeless> ... but couple of comments aren't enough
# [04:12] <adrianba> q?
# [04:12] * Zakim sees timeless on the speaker queue
# [04:13] <timeless> ... could you give suggestions
# [04:13] <timeless> mjs: unsigned cursor, flat numeric isn't the best way to do it
# [04:13] <timeless> ... Node + offset would be better
# [04:13] <timeless> ... if the document has changed in any way, then you have to rewalk the document
# [04:13] <paulc> For more wildcard options see http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/REC-xpath-full-text-10-20110317/#ftwildcardoption
# [04:13] <timeless> ... If you have a Node + offset, you can do it efficiently
# [04:13] * Quits: annbass (~annbass@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [04:14] <timeless> mjs: is this position in the document?
# [04:14] <timeless> ... it's in the logically serialized document
# [04:14] <timeless> ... the way a browser would implement this is probably to implement the algorithm through the document
# [04:14] <timeless> ... instead of serializing
# [04:14] <timeless> ... an index into that would be more complicated
# [04:15] <timeless> shepazu: one problem w/ how browsers do search is that you can't find text across boundaries
# [04:15] <timeless> ... because of that optimization
# [04:15] <timeless> mjs: I don't think the thing
# [04:15] <timeless> mjs: representing your current search start position doesn't affect the algorithm used for matching
# [04:15] * Joins: Josh_Soref (~sid4015@public.cloak)
# [04:16] <Josh_Soref> -> http://i.stack.imgur.com/MeGdg.png MS Find dialog (some app)
# [04:16] <timeless> mjs: there's no way that browsers will implement find text that requires fully serializing a document
# [04:16] <timeless> ... you don't need to serialize the whole text
# [04:16] <timeless> ... you just need your algorithm to not stop when it hits boundaries
# [04:16] * azaroth Josh_Soref++ for the find dialog image :)
# [04:16] <timeless> shepazu: I'm happy to do this
# [04:17] * Quits: wonsuk_ (~wonsuk@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [04:17] <timeless> shepazu: I'm doing this because people are using JS APIs to do searches
# [04:17] <timeless> ... they needed a cursor to do some operations
# [04:17] <azaroth> q+ for time check
# [04:17] * Zakim sees timeless, azaroth on the speaker queue
# [04:17] <adrianba> q?
# [04:17] * Zakim sees timeless, azaroth on the speaker queue
# [04:17] <timeless> mjs: having a representation makes sense
# [04:17] <timeless> ... doing Range + offset is better
# [04:17] <timeless> ... instead of worrying about Mutations w/ flat number
# [04:17] <timeless> shepazu: if that's what you suggest, that's fine
# [04:18] <azaroth> q-
# [04:18] * Zakim sees timeless on the speaker queue
# [04:18] * Quits: mhakkinen (~mhakkinen@public.cloak) (mhakkinen)
# [04:19] * Quits: yusuke (~yusuke@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [04:19] <adrianba> q?
# [04:19] * Zakim sees timeless on the speaker queue
# [04:19] <fsasaki> +1 to paulc for mentioning the xpath full text wildcard options, this is something one may want to look at for background infos
# [04:19] <adrianba> ack next
# [04:19] * Zakim sees timeless at the head of the speaker queue
# [04:19] <Zakim> timeless, you wanted to discuss MS Word
# [04:19] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [04:20] <xiaoqian> zakim, q?
# [04:20] <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
# [04:20] * Quits: azaroth (~azaroth@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [04:20] * Quits: ivan (ivan@public.cloak) ("My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…")
# [04:20] * Quits: clapierre (~clapierre@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [04:20] * Quits: hellojintae (~hellojintae@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [04:20] * Quits: Joe_ (~Joe@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [04:20] * Quits: paulc (~paulc@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [04:20] * Quits: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak) (mjs)
# [04:20] <xiaoqian> Doug: look forward to more feedback
# [04:21] * xiaoqian zakim, make minutes
# [04:21] * Zakim I don't understand 'make minutes', xiaoqian
# [04:21] * Quits: kochi (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [04:21] * Quits: Igarashi (~Igarashi@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [04:21] * Quits: karl (~karlcow@public.cloak) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
# [04:21] * Quits: ijongcheol (~ijongcheol@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [04:21] <xiaoqian> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [04:21] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html xiaoqian
# [04:22] <timeless> i/forward/Josh_Soref: The word dialog (url above) has the serialization (sounds like), word forms (not even offered), regular expressions and captures are under "special"
# [04:22] * Joins: ijongcheol (~ijongcheol@public.cloak)
# [04:22] <timeless> s/xiaoqian/timeless/
# [04:22] <timeless> [ Lunch ]
# [04:23] * xiaoqian RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [04:23] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html xiaoqian
# [04:23] * Quits: r12a (rishida@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [04:25] * Quits: ivan_ (~ivan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [04:25] * Quits: ygkim (~ygkim@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [04:25] * Quits: akeranen (~akeranen@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [04:26] * Quits: neochoon (~neochoon@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [04:26] * Quits: zqzhang (~zqzhang@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [04:26] * Quits: hyojin__ (~hyojin@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [04:27] * Quits: David_clarke (~David_clarke@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [04:27] * Quits: fsasaki (fsasaki@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [04:27] * Quits: JeffH (~JeffH@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [04:27] * Quits: takeshi (~takeshi@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [04:27] * Quits: ctwcpinc (~ctwcpinc@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [04:28] * Quits: Sam_ (~Sam@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [04:29] * Quits: LJWatson (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [04:29] * Quits: ijongcheol (~ijongcheol@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [04:30] * Quits: katsu (~katsu@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [04:30] * Quits: yuwei (~yuwei@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [04:31] * Quits: wenyudong_CM (~wenyudong_CM@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [04:33] * Quits: dka (~dka@public.cloak) (dka)
# [04:33] * Quits: npdoty (npdoty@public.cloak)
# [04:33] * Quits: Travis (~Travis@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [04:39] * Quits: kawai (~kawai@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [04:40] * Quits: wayne_carr (~wayne_carr@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [04:41] * Quits: dom (dom@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [04:43] * Quits: kurosawa (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [04:44] * Quits: za12 (~androirc@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [04:57] * Quits: vivien (vivien@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [05:02] * Quits: webapp-projects (~webapp-projects@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [05:07] * Joins: Florian (~Florian@public.cloak)
# [05:10] * Joins: clapierre (~clapierre@public.cloak)
# [05:10] * Joins: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak)
# [05:14] * Quits: Florian (~Florian@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [05:14] * Joins: jyasskin (~textual@public.cloak)
# [05:15] * Joins: ivan (ivan@public.cloak)
# [05:16] * Joins: webapps-projects (~webapps-projects@public.cloak)
# [05:16] <webapps-projects> Topic: Streams and fetch
# [05:17] * Joins: LJWatson (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
# [05:17] <webapps-projects> [note for cleaning minutes. JS as quoted on this topic was really YT]
# [05:18] * Joins: hellojintae (~hellojintae@public.cloak)
# [05:18] <webapps-projects> csribeNick: webapps-projects
# [05:19] <webapps-projects> s/csribeNick: webapps-projects//
# [05:19] <webapps-projects> scribeNick: webapps-projects
# [05:22] <falken> Scribe: falken
# [05:22] * Quits: LJWatson (~chatzilla@public.cloak) ("Carpe diem")
# [05:23] <falken> AvK: Before the break, we discussed streams and requests. We didn't get to the topic from Yukata about passing the stream to the response
# [05:23] * Joins: kurosawa (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
# [05:23] <falken> ... Takeshi wanted to discuss general issues about streams
# [05:23] * Joins: katsu (~katsu@public.cloak)
# [05:23] <falken> ... let's do streams and response first. If we make the body the first argument, if that becomes a readable stream it seems straightfoward
# [05:24] * Quits: Arnaud (~Arnaud@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [05:24] * Joins: takeshi (~takeshi@public.cloak)
# [05:24] * Joins: Florian (~Florian@public.cloak)
# [05:24] <falken> yhirano: adding the readablestream to the body... does anyone have concerns
# [05:25] <falken> AvK: only one way to clone a response at the moment, response.clone() that already does a tee
# [05:25] <falken> MJS: do custom implementable streams have a way to do tee. what does generic operation tee do?
# [05:25] <falken> AvK: if the stream has been tampered with clone will fail
# [05:25] * Joins: LJWatson (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
# [05:25] <falken> MJS: So you can't replay a body?
# [05:25] * Joins: za12 (~androirc@public.cloak)
# [05:25] <falken> ... seems like design flaw
# [05:26] <falken> Jake: but we want these responses to be like a 3 GB video
# [05:26] <falken> MJS: oh you're talking about responses
# [05:26] <falken> AvK: but for requests I don't understand either what you mean
# [05:26] <falken> MJS: sorry I thought we're talking about requests
# [05:26] * Joins: ijongcheol (~ijongcheol@public.cloak)
# [05:27] * Joins: nsakai (~nsakai@public.cloak)
# [05:27] <falken> MJS: for requests, whatever mechanism there is to custom implement your own read stream.... a common case is using the identiy stream thing to have a writable and reasable stream
# [05:27] * Joins: ctwcpinc (~ctwcpinc@public.cloak)
# [05:27] <falken> ... so you tee it before anyone has read from it
# [05:27] <falken> ... might have buffered already from write... you read from the copy does this mean that stream has to indefinitely buffer that idenitify stream now needs infinite buffering?
# [05:27] <falken> ... because no one is ever reading from the readable stream, they're always reading from the clone?
# [05:28] <falken> ... the only generic way to make tee is work is to buffer everything forever
# [05:28] <falken> JY: security question of streamfactory
# [05:28] <falken> AvK: maybe we can have both for requests?
# [05:28] * Joins: Arnaud (~Arnaud@public.cloak)
# [05:29] * Joins: Joe_ (~Joe@public.cloak)
# [05:29] <falken> MJS: if you don't use identity stream... does custom stream have a hook for implementing tee?
# [05:29] <falken> JY: No
# [05:29] <falken> AvK: Not clear yet
# [05:29] <falken> JY: spec has start, pull, and cancel
# [05:29] * Joins: karl (~karlcow@public.cloak)
# [05:29] <jyasskin> JY: https://streams.spec.whatwg.org/#rs-constructor
# [05:29] <falken> MJS: if someone teed your stream someone does buferring for you?
# [05:29] <falken> Jake: Yes
# [05:29] <falken> JY: Looks like a hole in ReadableStream
# [05:29] <falken> Jake: WHy
# [05:30] <falken> MJS: IF you're producing a readablestream with 10 files, when someone tees you...
# [05:30] * webapps-projects changes topic to ''
# [05:30] <falken> AvK: input stream creates out 1 and out 2, input is locked
# [05:30] * webapps-projects curses the irc client back
# [05:30] <falken> JY: how does that interact with underlying source
# [05:30] <falken> YH: each pulls data from underlying source and dupes data and pushes them to branches
# [05:31] <falken> AvK: looking at spec... tee is already in there
# [05:31] <falken> ... it's a concept implemented in readablestream
# [05:31] <falken> Jake: the spec gives you that the objects coming out are the same objects
# [05:31] <falken> Martin: if you tee, the tee operation says you kill the stream that you teed... create two new streams and lock the original
# [05:31] <falken> ... so same object doesn't work
# [05:31] * Quits: justin (~justin@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [05:31] <falken> YH: we're talking about Each chunk in stream
# [05:32] <falken> MJS: pretty harsh because it requires buffering from everywhere
# [05:32] <falken> ... list of 10 file names I will read from series and produce the data
# [05:32] <falken> ... have to buffer forever if someone is producing from one side of the tee
# [05:32] * webapps-projects changes topic to 'web platform f2f at TPAC: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/October2015Meeting#Agenda_Tuesday_October_27'
# [05:32] <falken> ... since you're preemptively teeing before you know there's a redirect
# [05:33] <falken> AvK: itd be useful to have that too, to preserve memory
# [05:33] * Joins: nsakai_ (~nsakai@public.cloak)
# [05:33] <falken> AvK: second instance for the stream, it'd be great if UA doesn't create a third instance because it might get a redirect
# [05:33] * Joins: kawai (~kawai@public.cloak)
# [05:33] <falken> ... having to dupe only once is better for memory
# [05:33] <falken> ... the simplest thing to add is the simple request accepts a radable stream
# [05:33] <falken> ... later have a new feature with body factory that calls that thing
# [05:33] * mt_____ Re prioritization from before (JakeA, mjs, annevk, jyasskin, etc...): http://blog.kazuhooku.com/2015/04/dependency-based-prioritization-makes.html
# [05:34] <falken> MJS: you can solve this in streams spec but need an optional hook to produce the two streams when it's teed
# [05:34] * Quits: nsakai (~nsakai@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [05:34] <falken> ... assuming those spec changes are acceptable
# [05:34] <falken> Jake: how about allow users to override the tee method?
# [05:35] <falken> ... if the developer says my stream.tee = whatever
# [05:35] <falken> ... as long as there are two streams there you've got a tee operation
# [05:35] <jyasskin> Maybe https://streams.spec.whatwg.org/#teereadablestream-pull-function
# [05:35] <falken> MJS: can someone drop a URL for relevant spec
# [05:35] <mt_____> https://streams.spec.whatwg.org/#rs-tee
# [05:35] <falken> AvK: generally we avoid that pattern... but seems ok
# [05:35] <tyoshino> and the details https://streams.spec.whatwg.org/#tee-readable-stream
# [05:35] <falken> Jake: it could be in the constructor...
# [05:35] <falken> AvK: you'd invoke it for each new redirect presumably
# [05:36] <falken> AvK: queue some task, then do some dance, either method invocation or callback
# [05:36] * Joins: annbass (~annbass@public.cloak)
# [05:36] <falken> JY: we need tee operation on readablestream. if the security issue really is a problem maybe the platform has to do it rather than platform
# [05:36] <falken> s/rather than platform/rather than JS/
# [05:36] * Joins: mhakkinen (~mhakkinen@public.cloak)
# [05:37] * Joins: samLiu (~samLiu@public.cloak)
# [05:37] <falken> JY: convenience vs efficiency tradeoff is normal for developers so we can give them both options
# [05:37] <falken> YH: can we avoid infinite buffering?
# [05:38] * Joins: kbx (~kbx@public.cloak)
# [05:38] <falken> JY: if you create a redablestream using undlerying source ctor argument, nothing has to buffer stuff. but if you use identity transofmration then it has to buffer data. it'll be less efficient
# [05:38] <falken> hober: If there's an explainer document it would be good
# [05:38] <falken> Jake: How does underlying source help?
# [05:38] <falken> JY: dev can specifiy a tee operation
# [05:39] <falken> MJS: yes they can tee in whatever way is most efficient
# [05:39] <falken> hober: sounds like everyone likes this
# [05:39] <falken> JY: domenic?
# [05:39] <falken> Martin: make sure that's written down
# [05:39] * Joins: moto (~moto@public.cloak)
# [05:39] <falken> ... new primitive operation for tee
# [05:39] <falken> AvK: so basically make tee implementable?
# [05:39] <mt_____> Yes
# [05:39] * Joins: JeffH (~JeffH@public.cloak)
# [05:39] <jyasskin> JY: ReadableStream's underlyingSource argument should grow a new "tee" method.
# [05:40] * Quits: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak) (mjs)
# [05:40] * Joins: hwlee (~hwlee@public.cloak)
# [05:40] <falken> ... if we want that in fetch we must figure out if we actually can.
# [05:40] * Quits: nsakai_ (~nsakai@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [05:40] <falken> Jake: fetch might throw?
# [05:40] <falken> Martin: fetch has a choice. can do infinite buffering as necessary
# [05:40] * Joins: justin (~justin@public.cloak)
# [05:40] <falken> ... i don't see an inherent problem with infinite bufferring
# [05:40] <falken> AvK: instead of teeing fetch can pipe and tee on the output of that
# [05:40] <falken> ... because that would not be exposed
# [05:40] <falken> ... to avoid having to call into javascript
# [05:41] <falken> AvK: So we need to solve this before we add readablestream to response
# [05:41] <mt_____> And, if there are security concerns with accessing jsimplemented tee(), then the browser would clone itself and avoid the js-tee()
# [05:41] <falken> ... because it affects how response with clone would behave
# [05:41] <falken> ... response.clone calls back to js which it currently does not
# [05:41] <falken> ... doesn't sem problematic
# [05:42] * Joins: jxck (~jxck@public.cloak)
# [05:42] * Joins: zqzhang (~zqzhang@public.cloak)
# [05:42] <falken> YH: we discussed whether we allow infinite buffering when reading from buffer 1 is much faster than reding from buffer 2. so introduced some kind of different buffer managment such as stop reading from the ?? one. so that seems like a streams problem. do you plan to revisit the rpoblem?
# [05:43] * Joins: yeonsoo (~yeonsoo@public.cloak)
# [05:43] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@public.cloak)
# [05:43] <falken> Martin: i think the conclusion was in absence of something that the JS had implemented for tee especially we would accept that if someone is forced to tee a stream the default impl would be to infinntely buffer
# [05:43] * Joins: ivan_ (~ivan@public.cloak)
# [05:43] <falken> YH: if stream provider wants, we should allow provider to provide another kind of policy?
# [05:43] <falken> Martin: Yes
# [05:44] <falken> YH: if that is provided in stream spec, it doesn't break fetch integration?
# [05:44] <falken> ... maybe we can provide such an option
# [05:44] <falken> Martin: the concern I see potentially is if you have a JS implemented tee is the stream might be originated from a worker
# [05:44] * Joins: dka (~dka@public.cloak)
# [05:44] <falken> ... so having a sync clone might be a problem
# [05:44] <falken> ... but streams are inherently async
# [05:45] <falken> AvK: once you cross that boundary objects also need to cross the boundary
# [05:45] * webapps-projects ...
# [05:45] <falken> Jake: on response cloning thing I already see workers calling .clone() on each use which leaves the original unconsumed
# [05:45] <falken> ... so the infintte buffer thing works well there
# [05:45] <falken> ... because it gets locked until gc
# [05:45] <falken> AvK: we do need to change streams spec first
# [05:45] <falken> ... to include this tee method
# [05:46] * Quits: webapps-projects (~webapps-projects@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [05:46] <falken> ... otherwise if you pass a redablestream to a response and invoke clone, we'd need to define what happens if there's no tee operation defined
# [05:46] <falken> Jake: we know the default tee. it's buffer
# [05:46] <falken> Martin: yes that's fine
# [05:46] * Joins: webapps-projects (~webapps-projects@public.cloak)
# [05:47] <falken> AvK: another concern passing to response... we need to to figure out if we'll have readablebytestream or not
# [05:47] <falken> ... because IDL does type checks
# [05:47] <falken> ... it'lll change from readablestream to readablebytestream
# [05:47] <falken> YH: problem is that when calling response.clone it will allow an infintie buffering right?
# [05:47] <falken> AvK: No
# [05:47] <falken> ... I was just thinking about potential show stoppers for when you do new response and pass in a readablestream
# [05:47] * Joins: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak)
# [05:48] <falken> ... we can add custom teeing later
# [05:48] * mt_____ .json() and .text() etc... are easy to explain in this context, those produce Readable(Byte)Stream objects that have a custom tee() operation
# [05:48] * Joins: kochi (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [05:48] <falken> ... but later if we want readablebyte instances... that's a separate API
# [05:48] <falken> YH: domenic talked about merging readablestream and readbablebytestream once
# [05:48] <falken> TY: it's ongoing
# [05:48] <falken> ... trying to refactor each class and find out how much overlap there is
# [05:49] <falken> ... it might take some more work to figure out
# [05:49] <falken> Martin: this seems to fit well with json.text
# [05:49] * Quits: annbass (~annbass@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [05:50] <falken> ... can explain everything in terms of streams
# [05:50] <falken> AvK: they are explained. but they don't tee. they consume the stream and make the object useless
# [05:50] <falken> ... if you invoke .text it consumed the stream. but if you clone you only get the clone. cloning happens if you invoke .clone() or during the request in fetching
# [05:50] <falken> Martin: sounds good
# [05:50] * Joins: ygkim (~ygkim@public.cloak)
# [05:51] <falken> AvK: Move on to new topic about streams
# [05:51] <falken> TY: want feedback on readablebytestream design
# [05:51] <falken> ... not yet finished
# [05:51] <falken> ... no spec text
# [05:51] * Joins: jeff (Jeff@public.cloak)
# [05:51] <falken> ... but streams repository has reference impl
# [05:51] <tyoshino> https://github.com/whatwg/streams/blob/master/reference-implementation/lib/readable-byte-stream.js
# [05:51] <falken> ... will paste url to irc
# [05:51] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@public.cloak)
# [05:51] * Joins: tomoyuki (~tomoyuki@public.cloak)
# [05:51] <falken> ... currently just have code
# [05:52] * Joins: annbass (~annbass@public.cloak)
# [05:52] <falken> ... take a look at method names
# [05:52] * Quits: Arnaud (~Arnaud@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [05:52] <falken> ... readablebytestream... controller...
# [05:52] <falken> hober: difference between readablestream and readablebytestream?
# [05:52] * falken above was MJS not hober
# [05:53] <falken> TY: BYOB
# [05:53] <falken> ... bring your own buffer
# [05:53] * Quits: karl (~karlcow@public.cloak) ("The deeper I go / the deeper I go / green mountains - Santoka")
# [05:53] <falken> AvK: streams themselves are generic. they hold any value.
# [05:53] <MikeSmith> s/hober: /MJS: /
# [05:53] * Joins: karl (~karlcow@public.cloak)
# [05:54] <falken> TY: original goal of streams was hold anything. before we had the byte specific one. readablestream as currently implemented as stream of arraybuffer
# [05:55] <falken> YH: readablestream has minimal interface. we can add properties to readablebytestream
# [05:55] * Joins: wseltzer (wseltzer@public.cloak)
# [05:55] <falken> TY: extended version of readablestream for bytes is readablebytestream
# [05:55] <falken> MJS: is readablebytestream a subclass?
# [05:55] <falken> YH: parallel object
# [05:55] <falken> MJS: kind of lame to have two abstractions of streams
# [05:55] <falken> MJS: bytes are the common case
# [05:55] * Joins: kiyoung (~kiyoung@public.cloak)
# [05:56] <falken> ... does non-byte readablestream even have a use case
# [05:56] <falken> Jake: agreed, but disagree common case is bytes. in node you see a lot of objects as streams. text stream
# [05:56] <falken> AvK: they do implement the same interface though.
# [05:56] * Joins: nsakai (~nsakai@public.cloak)
# [05:57] * Quits: za12 (~androirc@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [05:57] <jyasskin> https://streams.spec.whatwg.org/#rbs-class has both getByobReader() and getReader()
# [05:57] <falken> MJS: does readablebytestream have a convenience if you know you don't want bytes
# [05:57] <falken> Jake: it has both getreader and getbyobreader
# [05:57] <jyasskin> s/Jake/JY/
# [05:57] * Joins: za12 (~androirc@public.cloak)
# [05:58] * Quits: clapierre (~clapierre@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [05:58] <falken> TY: we originally had sync version of read interface last year
# [05:59] <falken> ... now read returns a promise
# [05:59] * Joins: webapps (~webapps@public.cloak)
# [06:00] <falken> MJS: limiting readablebytestream to bytes may be too limiting, for example if you know there's floats it'd be more efficient to use float buffer
# [06:00] <falken> ... useful for each type to have a type of stream
# [06:00] <falken> AvK: readabletypedarraystream
# [06:00] <falken> TY: this implementation is designed to handle typed arrays correctly
# [06:00] <falken> ... it already works
# [06:00] <falken> AvK: so it just needs a different name
# [06:00] * Joins: hellojin_ (~hellojintae@public.cloak)
# [06:01] <falken> MJS: maybe more productive to discuss this with a spec
# [06:01] <falken> ... instead of reading the code
# [06:01] <falken> ... almost every question I have is answered by the code but not enough time to read in 15 minutes
# [06:01] * Joins: yuwei (~yuwei@public.cloak)
# [06:01] <falken> break time
# [06:01] * Quits: annbass (~annbass@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [06:02] <falken> chaals: what's the next step for this
# [06:02] <falken> hober: So, mayking the tee changes is one AI. and another AI is making the spec about typed streams
# [06:02] <falken> Martin: i'm filing an issue now
# [06:02] <falken> chaals: two minute wrapup?
# [06:03] <falken> AvK: as far as streams integration into fetch, we have a good iddea of accepting readablestream everywhere for requwest and response
# [06:03] <falken> ... maybe not all at once, mostly up to YH who is writing the spec text
# [06:03] * Quits: kochi (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [06:03] <falken> ... look into making teeing pluggable
# [06:03] <falken> ... that's optional but needs to implemented in JS and we need to figure out if it's secure if invoked from the fetch layer
# [06:04] <falken> ... for example redirects
# [06:04] <falken> ... and......
# [06:04] * Joins: annbass (~annbass@public.cloak)
# [06:04] * Quits: hellojintae (~hellojintae@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [06:04] <falken> ... then lastly there's some work to do in straems spec to around readablebyte stream
# [06:04] <falken> ... does it need to exist? and if so it needs to be renamed so it's clear it's generic and applies to typed arrays
# [06:04] <falken> ... typedarray or arraybuffer...? more generic than it is now
# [06:04] <falken> MJS: and if it can be a subclass
# [06:05] <falken> hober: question about summary
# [06:05] * Joins: clapierre (~clapierre@public.cloak)
# [06:05] * Joins: npdoty (npdoty@public.cloak)
# [06:05] <falken> ... do we have agreement that it is possible to do subclass?
# [06:05] <falken> AvK: I think so
# [06:05] <falken> ... I don't know why it is not now
# [06:05] * Joins: kimwooglae_ (~kimwooglae@public.cloak)
# [06:05] * Quits: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak) (mjs)
# [06:05] <falken> chaals: ok we have a summary now
# [06:06] * Quits: clapierre (~clapierre@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [06:06] * Joins: Justin_ (~Justin@public.cloak)
# [06:06] * Quits: yeonsoo (~yeonsoo@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [06:06] <falken> end of session
# [06:07] * Joins: yeonsoo (~yeonsoo@public.cloak)
# [06:09] * Joins: clapierre (~clapierre@public.cloak)
# [06:09] * Quits: bkardell_ (~uid10373@public.cloak) ("Connection closed for inactivity")
# [06:10] * Joins: kimwooglae__ (~kimwooglae@public.cloak)
# [06:11] * Quits: clapierre (~clapierre@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [06:11] * Quits: mhakkinen (~mhakkinen@public.cloak) (mhakkinen)
# [06:12] * Quits: jyasskin (~textual@public.cloak) ("My computer has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…")
# [06:12] * Quits: kimwooglae_ (~kimwooglae@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [06:14] * Quits: kiyoung (~kiyoung@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [06:14] * Quits: takeshi (~takeshi@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [06:15] * Quits: hwlee (~hwlee@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [06:15] * Joins: takeshi (~takeshi@public.cloak)
# [06:16] * Joins: Hyunjin (~Hyunjin@public.cloak)
# [06:17] * Joins: clapierre (~clapierre@public.cloak)
# [06:20] * Joins: AndroUser2 (~androirc@public.cloak)
# [06:21] * Quits: annbass (~annbass@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [06:22] * Quits: moto (~moto@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [06:24] * Quits: dka (~dka@public.cloak) (dka)
# [06:24] * Quits: za12 (~androirc@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [06:24] * Parts: ctwcpinc (~ctwcpinc@public.cloak)
# [06:27] <webapps-projects> Topic: aria joint meeting
# [06:27] * Joins: jamesn (~jamesn00@public.cloak)
# [06:27] * Joins: mhakkinen (~mhakkinen@public.cloak)
# [06:28] * Joins: tzviya (~tsiegman@public.cloak)
# [06:28] <LJWatson> scribenick: LJWatson
# [06:28] * Joins: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak)
# [06:29] * Joins: za12 (~androirc@public.cloak)
# [06:29] <clapierre> present+ Charles_LaPierre
# [06:29] <LJWatson> RS: Want to talk about accessibility in Web Components, and what you need us to address.
# [06:29] * Joins: joanie (~joanmarie@public.cloak)
# [06:30] * Quits: za12 (~androirc@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [06:30] <LJWatson> Also a proposal for a new accessibility API.
# [06:30] * Joins: za12 (~androirc@public.cloak)
# [06:30] <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
# [06:30] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html LJWatson
# [06:30] * Joins: hjlee (~hjlee@public.cloak)
# [06:30] <LJWatson> CMN: Most Web Comps people will be here tomorrow.
# [06:30] * Joins: Kenny (hbwhzk@public.cloak)
# [06:31] <LJWatson> ...If you construct new things in Web Comps, in the way we've done with HTML + JS in the past, we need to be able to add accessibility.
# [06:31] <LJWatson> ... We created ARIA to do this in HTML.
# [06:31] * Quits: AndroUser2 (~androirc@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [06:32] <LJWatson> ... How do we do that in Web Comps? Think it's unsolved.
# [06:32] * Joins: MichaelC (cooper@public.cloak)
# [06:32] * Quits: hellojin_ (~hellojintae@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [06:32] <LJWatson> MS: Think there are three aspects to this.
# [06:32] <LJWatson> ... ARIA has historically focused on representing the state of controls so an Assistive Technology (AT) can convey to a user.
# [06:32] <LJWatson> ... This should work in Web Comps.
# [06:33] <LJWatson> ... But there are two limitations.
# [06:33] <LJWatson> ... People may make controls that don't match existing HTML/ARIA semantics.
# [06:33] <LJWatson> ... Second is how do we interact and manipulate it?
# [06:33] * Quits: npdoty (npdoty@public.cloak)
# [06:34] * Joins: dka (~dka@public.cloak)
# [06:34] <LJWatson> ... On touch screen - the fact something is keyboard accessible is no help.
# [06:34] * Joins: npdoty (npdoty@public.cloak)
# [06:34] * Joins: moto (~moto@public.cloak)
# [06:34] <LJWatson> ... ARIA has no way to know what operations are available, or how to effect those operations.
# [06:35] <LJWatson> RS: We're looking at ARIA 2.0.
# [06:35] <LJWatson> ... We need a device independent interaction layer/API. May not be part of ARIA.
# [06:36] <LJWatson> ... We want to know what requirements you have for this.
# [06:37] <LJWatson> Hober: Use cases from IndieUI will fall out of hits.
# [06:37] * Quits: hjlee (~hjlee@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [06:37] * MichaelC rrsagent, make minutes
# [06:37] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html MichaelC
# [06:37] <LJWatson> Cyns: One thing we're looking at is scripted accessibility - WAPA.
# [06:38] * Parts: webapps-projects (~webapps-projects@public.cloak)
# [06:38] * Joins: webapps-projects (~webapps-projects@public.cloak)
# [06:39] <Josh_Soref> s/aria joint meeting/ARIA joint meeting/
# [06:39] <LJWatson> CMN: There is a related piece of work from the HTML A11y TF. How do you do this with basic markup?
# [06:39] <kurosawa> APIs which cyns mentioned are https://github.com/cyns/wapa/blob/master/ScriptAccessibility.md and https://wicg.github.io/a11yapi/, aren't they
# [06:39] <LJWatson> ... WAPA is like the React.js way of device independence and not putting everything in the markup.
# [06:39] <timeless> s/Also a proposal for a new accessibility API./... Also a proposal for a new accessibility API./
# [06:40] <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
# [06:40] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html LJWatson
# [06:40] <LJWatson> ... There are different threads that tie into the point Maciej made - there will be new components.
# [06:41] <timeless> s/of hits/of this/
# [06:41] * Joins: cyns (~cyns@public.cloak)
# [06:41] <LJWatson> ... How do we map things that are useful to one group of 800k users?
# [06:41] * Joins: Rumk (~Rumk@public.cloak)
# [06:42] <cyns> https://github.com/WICG/a11yapi
# [06:42] <LJWatson> ... There is work in the Editing TF and other places.
# [06:42] * Joins: jyasskin (~textual@public.cloak)
# [06:42] <webapps-projects> q?
# [06:42] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [06:42] <LJWatson> ... we need to tie things together and find a solution, and that's the job of this WG.
# [06:42] <LJWatson> TOPIC: WAPA
# [06:43] <LJWatson> cyns: Web Accessibility Properties and Actions (WAPA). sometimes known as dynamic ARIA.
# [06:43] * Joins: richardschwerdtfeger (~RichS@public.cloak)
# [06:43] <LJWatson> ... It makes the accessibility layer accessible through scripting.
# [06:43] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@public.cloak)
# [06:44] <richardschwerdtfeger> http://wicg.github.io/a11yapi/
# [06:44] <LJWatson> ... We heard from internalteams at MS that when making applications accessible, most of the app lived in JS, but to do accessibility they had to write HTML - which is expensive.
# [06:44] <LJWatson> ... There is a prototype for Edge.
# [06:45] <LJWatson> ... Mozilla is working on a JavaScript API that's similar.
# [06:45] <LJWatson> ... One problem is that there are three acc APIs on Widows, another on Linux, another on OSX etc.
# [06:45] <LJWatson> s/Widows/Windows/
# [06:46] * Quits: richardschwerdtfeger (~RichS@public.cloak) (richardschwerdtfeger)
# [06:46] <LJWatson> ... We want developers to be able to build things accessibility the same way they build everything else.
# [06:46] * Joins: richardschwerdtfeger (~RichS@public.cloak)
# [06:46] * Quits: tomoyuki (~tomoyuki@public.cloak) (tomoyuki)
# [06:46] <LJWatson> RS: The most expensive effort for accessibility is adding keyboard support.
# [06:47] <LJWatson> ... We want to make things as device independent as possible.
# [06:47] <LJWatson> ... This will also make code more portable.
# [06:47] * Joins: hjlee (~hjlee@public.cloak)
# [06:47] <cyns> https://github.com/cyns/wapa/blob/master/ScriptAccessibility.md
# [06:47] <LJWatson> ... So we want an interfac... It is costly to have to write to multiple acc APIs in different browsers and platforms.
# [06:47] * Quits: richardschwerdtfeger (~RichS@public.cloak) (richardschwerdtfeger)
# [06:48] <timeless> s/interfac/interface/
# [06:48] <LJWatson> ss/So we want an interfac... It is costly /It is costly/
# [06:48] * Quits: kbx (~kbx@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [06:48] * Joins: karlcow_ (~karlcow@public.cloak)
# [06:48] * Quits: karl (~karlcow@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [06:48] <LJWatson> yns: There have been failed attempts to create a single AP before. This is more about getting the different APIs to align.
# [06:48] <webapps-projects> -> http://xkcd.com/927 making a standard accessibility API
# [06:48] * karlcow_ is now known as karl
# [06:49] <LJWatson> Ted: Agree keyboard is one of the big areas.
# [06:49] * Quits: moto (~moto@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [06:49] * Joins: hellojintae (~hellojintae@public.cloak)
# [06:49] * Joins: kbx (~kbx@public.cloak)
# [06:49] * Joins: moto (~moto@public.cloak)
# [06:50] <cyns> that xkcd cartoon is exactly what we're trying to avoid. Rather than make a whole new one, we want to fill the gaps in overlap.
# [06:50] <LJWatson> CMN: The Editing TF is looking at standardising the way browsers handle editable/rich text content.
# [06:50] <LJWatson> ... Making it easier for JS developers to provide a quality UI.
# [06:50] <LJWatson> ... How do you ask for text to be bold? How do you indicate something should be a link?
# [06:51] <LJWatson> Ted: If you have a low level API to insert/replace text, you can talk about different operations.
# [06:51] <LJWatson> RS: There is a broad spectrum of APIs that are cross-platform.
# [06:52] <LJWatson> Ted: Think what we want is not making the platform acc APIs common, but where we can extend the Web API tat interacts with them.
# [06:53] <LJWatson> ... We want some kind of accessibility delegation.
# [06:53] <LJWatson> ... Think it's a good idea for someone to work on a proposal.
# [06:53] <LJWatson> Cyns: We're trying to avoid standards proliferation. we already have ARIA, and we're mapping it to different platforms.
# [06:54] <gsnedders> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [06:54] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html gsnedders
# [06:54] <LJWatson> ... We're spinning up an incubation project in WICG and would really like to have people from Web Platform involved to help us solve things.
# [06:54] <LJWatson> CMN: Editing is a specific area.
# [06:55] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@public.cloak) (sicking)
# [06:55] <LJWatson> ... What we have with Web Comps is the ability to create anything.
# [06:55] <LJWatson> ... What we don't have is a way to make the interaction with a web Comp device independent.
# [06:55] <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
# [06:55] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html LJWatson
# [06:56] <LJWatson> JW: Agree with Chaals.
# [06:56] <LJWatson> ... The IndieUI WG had IndieUI Events 1.0.
# [06:57] <LJWatson> ... The goal was to define device independent events, sometimes called intention events.
# [06:57] <LJWatson> ... Would be interested to know what concrete steps and relationships can be established within the new WGs to carry this work forward?
# [06:57] <webapps-projects> q+ chaals
# [06:57] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
# [06:58] <adrianba> ack next
# [06:58] * Zakim sees chaals at the head of the speaker queue
# [06:58] * annevk wonders if anyone has a link to the remainder of the agenda
# [06:58] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [06:58] <LJWatson> CMN: The WP WG has an enormous scope and a short charter, but if we find something we should be working on we can recharter.
# [06:58] <LJWatson> Q+
# [06:58] * Zakim sees LJWatson on the speaker queue
# [06:58] * adrianba anne, https://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/October2015Meeting#Agenda_Monday_October_26
# [06:59] <LJWatson> ... We may think of other areas, as well as Editing, and look for the events.
# [06:59] * Quits: tzviya (~tsiegman@public.cloak) ("")
# [06:59] * Quits: justin (~justin@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [06:59] <LJWatson> ... Or we can work on a new framework to describe what a component is and how someone might interact with it.
# [07:00] * hober 13th time's a charm!
# [07:00] <LJWatson> ... That's harder and we're likely to get it wrong the first dozen times we try.
# [07:00] <LJWatson> ... We can do either thing, or both. What are the use cases we want to solve, and who's going to put in the effort to work on either one?
# [07:00] <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
# [07:00] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html LJWatson
# [07:00] * Quits: dka (~dka@public.cloak) (dka)
# [07:00] * Quits: takeshi (~takeshi@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [07:00] * Joins: Judy (jbrewer@public.cloak)
# [07:01] <adrianba> q?
# [07:01] * Zakim sees LJWatson on the speaker queue
# [07:01] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@public.cloak)
# [07:01] <LJWatson> cyns: If we choose to create a framework there are examples we can follow.
# [07:01] <LJWatson> RS: The work in WICG will be focusing on these issues.
# [07:01] <jeff> q+
# [07:01] * Zakim sees LJWatson, jeff on the speaker queue
# [07:01] <LJWatson> ... Two things have happened on the web that will break accessiility testing.
# [07:02] <LJWatson> ... CSS content injection is one problem, many ATs and test tools don't get to CSS generated content.
# [07:03] <LJWatson> ... Web Components.
# [07:03] <adrianba> ack next
# [07:03] * Zakim sees LJWatson at the head of the speaker queue
# [07:03] * Zakim sees jeff on the speaker queue
# [07:03] * Quits: moto (~moto@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [07:03] <LJWatson> LW: We have the High Level User Interaction spec unde our charter,and this is the thing that will start in WICG.
# [07:03] <adrianba> ack next
# [07:03] * Zakim sees jeff at the head of the speaker queue
# [07:03] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [07:04] * Joins: takeshi (~takeshi@public.cloak)
# [07:04] * Quits: hellojintae (~hellojintae@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [07:04] <LJWatson> Jeff: Would it make sense for someone, perhaps a chair of WP, to continually review whethere there is a need for participation from members of WP?
# [07:05] <LJWatson> CMN: suggest the other way around. If the ARIA WG wants help and doesn't have it, ping the WP co-chairs and ask.
# [07:05] <LJWatson> cyns: What we're looking for is people who understand editing, web Comps and whatever your other use cases are, plus browser vendors.
# [07:05] <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
# [07:05] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html LJWatson
# [07:05] <LJWatson> TOPIC: Context information
# [07:05] * Quits: jeff (Jeff@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
# [07:05] <LJWatson> RS: Can do this trough JS APIs.
# [07:05] * Joins: hellojintae (~hellojintae@public.cloak)
# [07:06] <LJWatson> ... Getting environmental context informationfrom the browser, and Media Queries, two things tackling the same problem.
# [07:06] <LJWatson> ... We don't want two/three vehicles to do this.
# [07:06] <LJWatson> ... We want contextual information for people with disabilities.
# [07:06] * Joins: dka (~dka@public.cloak)
# [07:06] <LJWatson> ... What's the best vehicle to do this?
# [07:07] <LJWatson> ... We jdon't want to restrict how the information is generated, only to be able to access it.
# [07:07] <LJWatson> ... We'd like to talk to you about a consistent way of doing this.
# [07:07] <LJWatson> CMN: I work for a search engine company and we have lots of information about context.
# [07:08] <LJWatson> .... We work hard not to expose this information, otherwise privacy people get edgy.
# [07:08] * Joins: dom (dom@public.cloak)
# [07:08] <LJWatson> ...It's not clear that this work would be in WP.
# [07:08] <LJWatson> ...Nothing in our scope that says we can work on it at the moment.
# [07:09] <LJWatson> ... I understand the use cases and the privacy concerns. Not sure this is something we should work on.
# [07:09] <LJWatson> Ted: Agree with Chaals.
# [07:09] <LJWatson> ... There is a difference between consistency of processing and the API.
# [07:10] * Joins: mathieucitrix (~mathieucitrix@public.cloak)
# [07:10] <LJWatson> ... Suppose we had a simple API that could take some string of user context data.
# [07:10] <LJWatson> ... it might be an awful idea for some pieces of information.
# [07:10] <LJWatson> ... Would rather we considered each one carefully.
# [07:11] <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
# [07:11] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html LJWatson
# [07:11] * Quits: ivan (ivan@public.cloak) ("My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…")
# [07:11] * Quits: takeshi (~takeshi@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [07:11] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@public.cloak) (sicking)
# [07:11] * Parts: yeonsoo (~yeonsoo@public.cloak)
# [07:11] <LJWatson> Anne: Things will depend on what information you want to query. There are also privacy issues here.
# [07:11] <LJWatson> RS: One thing that hasn't made it into Media queries today is Hich Contrast Mode (HCM).
# [07:12] * Joins: igarashi (~igarashi@public.cloak)
# [07:12] * Joins: moto (~moto@public.cloak)
# [07:12] <LJWatson> ... Need alternte text for video, is there an AT accessing theebrowser?
# [07:13] <LJWatson> Ted: These are things for Device APIs WG.
# [07:13] <LJWatson> RS: Why is whether captions are turned on a device API?
# [07:13] <LJWatson> Ted: The Media TF could talk to you about captions.
# [07:13] * Quits: clapierre (~clapierre@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [07:13] <LJWatson> CMN: Talk to PaulC about the Media TF.
# [07:14] <LJWatson> ... There is only a small amount of things that are relevant to this WG.
# [07:14] <LJWatson> cyns: APIs for describing widgets, controls and events are in scope for this WG.
# [07:15] <LJWatson> ... Testing is outside of this WG, but people might be interested to know we're meeting with Web Drivers tomorrow.
# [07:15] <LJWatson> CMN: How we provide information about components is definitely in scope for us. We should continue the conversation.
# [07:15] * Quits: jamesn (~jamesn00@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [07:15] <LJWatson> ... encourage members of WP to look at the work done on how to make a component accessible.
# [07:15] * Joins: richardschwerdtfeger (~RichS@public.cloak)
# [07:16] * Joins: Travis (~Travis@public.cloak)
# [07:16] <LJWatson> ... ADo you have any sense of particular problems with Web Comps.
# [07:16] <LJWatson> JN: Referencing the Shadow DOM from outside is one problem.
# [07:16] * Joins: ivan (ivan@public.cloak)
# [07:16] <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
# [07:16] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html LJWatson
# [07:16] * Joins: tzviya (~tsiegman@public.cloak)
# [07:17] * Joins: clapierre (~clapierre@public.cloak)
# [07:17] <LJWatson> Mark: we're building Web Comps prototypes.
# [07:17] <MichaelC> clarification on JN, think issue was referencing outside the Shadow DOM from inside it
# [07:17] <LJWatson> RS: Are there any semantics that we don't have in ARIA today that you need for web Comps?
# [07:18] * Quits: richardschwerdtfeger (~RichS@public.cloak) (richardschwerdtfeger)
# [07:18] <LJWatson> Anne: There might be room for someong else apart from the shadow tree.
# [07:19] <LJWatson> ... If you have a button and you want to expose its role and state, there needs to be something in between where you could set the default ARIA - wich could be overridden.
# [07:19] <LJWatson> ... Similar to the way HTML elements have default roles and states.
# [07:19] <LJWatson> ... There are similar APIs needed around things like focus.
# [07:19] * Quits: npdoty (npdoty@public.cloak)
# [07:19] <LJWatson> ... We've maybe figured out accessibility in Custom Elements.
# [07:20] <LJWatson> ... Trying to understand how we would implement native HTML as Web Components today reveals lots of problems.
# [07:20] <LJWatson> RS: We should look at mappings for the HTML elements themselves and see where we have gaps.
# [07:20] <LJWatson> Anne: Also what kind of API the HTML elements thmselves would use to talk to the acc or browser layers.
# [07:21] <LJWatson> ... It's a ard problem.
# [07:21] * Joins: annbass (~annbass@public.cloak)
# [07:21] <LJWatson> cyns: So if we built the <select> as a web Coponent, what would we need?
# [07:21] * Quits: masayuki (~masayuki@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [07:21] <annevk> https://github.com/domenic/html-as-custom-elements
# [07:21] <annevk> hober: ^^
# [07:21] <LJWatson> Ted: Domenic D started a project to document this.
# [07:22] <LJWatson> CMN: Of course there are emantics missing in ARIA.
# [07:22] <hober> https://github.com/domenic/html-as-custom-elements
# [07:22] * Joins: takeshi (~takeshi@public.cloak)
# [07:22] <LJWatson> ... every controls in my starship controller UI I'm building.
# [07:22] * hober annevk: heh, beat me to it
# [07:22] * Joins: jamesn (~jamesn00@public.cloak)
# [07:22] <LJWatson> ... But there are some semantics we probably don't need in ARIA.
# [07:23] <LJWatson> ... Can we provide a list of semantics for allthe things people might make? No, that's why we have Web Comps in the first place.
# [07:23] <LJWatson> ... we need to go beyond compiling a giant list of semantics.
# [07:23] * Joins: npdoty (npdoty@public.cloak)
# [07:23] <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
# [07:23] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-webapps-minutes.html LJWatson
# [07:23] * Joins: richardschwerdtfeger (~RichS@public.cloak)
# [07:23] * Quits: mhakkinen (~mhakkinen@public.cloak) (mhakkinen)
# [07:23] * Quits: richardschwerdtfeger (~RichS@public.cloak) (richardschwerdtfeger)
# [07:23] * Quits: jamesn (~jamesn00@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [07:23] * Joins: richardschwerdtfeger (~RichS@public.cloak)
# [07:23] * Quits: richardschwerdtfeger (~RichS@public.cloak) (richardschwerdtfeger)
# [07:24] <mt_____> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1soMBhvsd0wuk8PO5UjtrMd116Z95jJiZLxlUFomyBFs/edit#slide=id.p
# [07:24] * Quits: kbx (~kbx@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [07:24] * Quits: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak) (mjs)
# [07:27] * Quits: Hyunjin (~Hyunjin@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [07:29] * Quits: annbass (~annbass@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [07:29] * Quits: cyns (~cyns@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [07:29] * Quits: kimwooglae__ (~kimwooglae@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [07:29] * Quits: JF (~JF@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [07:29] * Quits: hellojintae (~hellojintae@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [07:29] * Joins: hellojintae (~hellojintae@public.cloak)
# [07:29] * Quits: hellojintae (~hellojintae@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [07:30] * Quits: Rumk (~Rumk@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [07:30] * Quits: MichaelC (cooper@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [07:30] * Joins: annbass (~annbass@public.cloak)
# [07:31] * Quits: webapps (~webapps@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [07:31] * Joins: Hyunjin (~Hyunjin@public.cloak)
# [07:32] * Quits: moto (~moto@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [07:32] * Quits: jxck (~jxck@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [07:32] * Quits: LJWatson (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [07:33] * Joins: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak)
# [07:33] * Joins: kbx (~kbx@public.cloak)
# [07:35] * Joins: neochoon (~neochoon@public.cloak)
# [07:37] * Quits: Judy (jbrewer@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [07:38] * Joins: mhakkinen (~mhakkinen@public.cloak)
# [07:39] * Quits: takeshi (~takeshi@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [07:40] * Quits: kbx (~kbx@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [07:40] * Joins: takeshi (~takeshi@public.cloak)
# [07:41] * Quits: ijongcheol (~ijongcheol@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [07:42] * Joins: jxck (~jxck@public.cloak)
# [07:43] <npdoty> volunteers to scribe?
# [07:43] <adrianba> ScribeNick: adrianba
# [07:44] <adrianba> mt: showing slides in deck
# [07:45] * Quits: za12 (~androirc@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [07:46] <adrianba> mt: traditionally, when you close the page the web app stops
# [07:46] * Quits: kurosawa (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [07:47] * Joins: za12 (~androirc@public.cloak)
# [07:47] * Joins: igarashi_ (~igarashi@public.cloak)
# [07:49] <adrianba> ... having an indicator for location, etc. let's you know something is happening so you can revoke it if it was a mistake
# [07:49] * Quits: za12 (~androirc@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [07:49] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [07:50] <adrianba> ... for new features we need to figure out how to manage things that happen in the background outside the users control
# [07:50] * Joins: ys (~ys@public.cloak)
# [07:50] * Joins: za12 (~androirc@public.cloak)
# [07:51] * Joins: Judy (jbrewer@public.cloak)
# [07:53] * Joins: hellojintae (~hellojintae@public.cloak)
# [07:53] * Joins: LJWatson (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
# [07:53] * Joins: richardschwerdtfeger (~RichS@public.cloak)
# [07:54] * Joins: kurosawa (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
# [07:55] * Quits: annbass (~annbass@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [07:57] <adrianba> chaals: do you give a notification to the site when the quota runs out
# [07:57] <adrianba> mt: thinking about how to notify the site
# [07:58] * Joins: guillaume (guillaume@public.cloak)
# [07:58] <adrianba> ... can change the quota based on interactions with site
# [07:59] <adrianba> ... looking at how to assign reputation to sites for users
# [07:59] * Joins: MichaelC (cooper@public.cloak)
# [07:59] <adrianba> JakeA: if notification is shown it doesn't dock quota - why is this way around?
# [07:59] <adrianba> mt: want to make sure it is a notification that the user sees
# [07:59] * Parts: MichaelC (cooper@public.cloak) (Leaving)
# [08:00] * Quits: hjlee (~hjlee@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [08:00] <adrianba> ... no accountability if the user doesn't actually see the notice
# [08:00] * Parts: joanie (~joanmarie@public.cloak)
# [08:01] * Joins: annbass (~annbass@public.cloak)
# [08:01] <adrianba> JakeA: any defence against one notification showing and then hiding
# [08:01] <adrianba> mt: yes, the 3s time is to still be showing a notice
# [08:02] <adrianba> JakeA: what about setTimeout?
# [08:02] <adrianba> mt: didn't think we had setTimeout - why do we have that?
# [08:02] <adrianba> JakeA: useful and no reason not to have it
# [08:03] <adrianba> JakeA: the idea that when a tab is closed the site can't run any more
# [08:03] <adrianba> ... on android I have tabs open I wouldn't expect to run code
# [08:03] <adrianba> mt: I removed points about background tabs to keep the slides simple
# [08:04] <npdoty> q+
# [08:04] * Zakim sees npdoty on the speaker queue
# [08:04] <adrianba> mt: I don't have any good answers - I think the features are worth having -
# [08:04] <adrianba> ack next
# [08:04] * Zakim sees npdoty at the head of the speaker queue
# [08:04] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [08:04] <adrianba> npdoty: really glad we could have a little time to discuss this
# [08:05] * Quits: webapps-projects (~webapps-projects@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [08:05] <adrianba> ... privacy ig hearing about this more often
# [08:05] * Quits: LJWatson (~chatzilla@public.cloak) ("Carpe diem")
# [08:05] <adrianba> ... coming up in more APIs
# [08:05] <adrianba> ... want to share knowledge about this
# [08:05] <adrianba> ... also useful to figure out what to put into specs to deal with this
# [08:05] * Joins: kbx (~kbx@public.cloak)
# [08:06] * Joins: hjlee (~hjlee@public.cloak)
# [08:06] <adrianba> mt: shipping some code that implements this experiment
# [08:06] <adrianba> ... actively looking for new ways to solve the problem
# [08:07] <adrianba> annevk: do we still require user opt in for all these?
# [08:07] <adrianba> mt: we do for push
# [08:07] * Joins: veihske (~veihske@public.cloak)
# [08:07] <adrianba> ... don't believe there is for background sync
# [08:07] <adrianba> JakeA: periodic background sync will require a permission but not for one off
# [08:07] * Quits: jyasskin (~textual@public.cloak) ("My computer has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…")
# [08:08] * Joins: LJWatson (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
# [08:08] <adrianba> chaals: in the same way a user can revoke permission, being able to send a note to the server asking to forget some information might be useful
# [08:08] <adrianba> won't deal with bad actors
# [08:09] <adrianba> s/won't/... won't/
# [08:09] <adrianba> ... seems some value in enabling that
# [08:09] <adrianba> mt: one of the things we do is unsubscribe the SW from the push service
# [08:09] * Quits: Justin_ (~Justin@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [08:09] <adrianba> ... so next time they try to send they will find out
# [08:10] <adrianba> annevk: when?
# [08:10] <adrianba> mt: after the final message
# [08:10] <adrianba> JakeA: sendBeacon might have the same problem with being cached after laptop sleep
# [08:10] <adrianba> XXX: working on background sync
# [08:11] <adrianba> ... focused on one shot first
# [08:11] <adrianba> ... in most cases will fire right away
# [08:11] <dcooney> /XXX/kbx, Chrome PM/
# [08:11] <adrianba> ... for an API where you can specify a delay then we might show a notification
# [08:12] * Quits: npdoty (npdoty@public.cloak)
# [08:12] <adrianba> chaals: I wasn't talking about unsubscribe - I meant having sent data over the wire being able to ask the server to please forget what I sent
# [08:12] <adrianba> ... which is why it only works for good actors
# [08:12] * Quits: kbx (~kbx@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [08:13] <adrianba> mt: need to think about how you might identify that information
# [08:13] * Quits: dka (~dka@public.cloak) (dka)
# [08:14] <adrianba> JakeA: another case where me might leak data is if you type into address bar, you get autocomplete that can send data for preconnect
# [08:15] * Joins: npdoty (npdoty@public.cloak)
# [08:15] * Joins: kochi (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [08:15] <adrianba> mt: yes, but this might be a different issue
# [08:15] <adrianba> ... we do DNS look-up when you hover a link for example
# [08:15] * Joins: dka (~dka@public.cloak)
# [08:15] <adrianba> ... somewhat orthogonal though
# [08:15] <adrianba> npdoty: one thing for the task manager option or for SW in general
# [08:15] * Quits: Travis (~Travis@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [08:15] <adrianba> ... when I install something on my phone it has an icon and a name
# [08:16] <adrianba> ... but with SW even if I go to look it might be hard for me to figure out which maps to what
# [08:16] <adrianba> ... using origin is great, might be memorable, but also have a danger where task manager list content is meaningless
# [08:17] * Quits: npdoty (npdoty@public.cloak)
# [08:17] <adrianba> JakeA: task manager works well for storage
# [08:17] * Joins: kbx (~kbx@public.cloak)
# [08:17] * Joins: kimwooglae (~kimwooglae@public.cloak)
# [08:17] <adrianba> ... might have adding to home screen puts it into storage settings
# [08:18] <adrianba> ... for privacy settings is having a separate manager the right thing?
# [08:19] * Joins: npdoty (npdoty@public.cloak)
# [08:19] <adrianba> kbx: might be biased but do like the way chrome is doing for site settings - if there is concern for geofencing - if you know something happened you can go and disable it
# [08:19] <adrianba> mt: we don't see a lot of people using site settings
# [08:19] <adrianba> ... new permissions API to see some of these things
# [08:19] <adrianba> ... maybe look at how often things are used
# [08:19] <adrianba> ... but don't see many users go to this
# [08:19] * Joins: jyasskin (~textual@public.cloak)
# [08:19] <adrianba> kbx: when you get push notification you get a link to site settings
# [08:20] <adrianba> mt: I didn't show firefox UX - origin is shown and menu allows blocking push from the site there
# [08:20] <adrianba> ... we don't go via site settings
# [08:20] * Quits: annbass (~annbass@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [08:22] <adrianba> npdoty: if you want to continue this conversation - privacy IG is meeting friday
# [08:22] <adrianba> ... if you think there is some documentation we need to write then turn into work items is helpful
# [08:22] <adrianba> chaals: break for 20 minsd
# [08:22] <adrianba> s/minsd/mins/
# [08:23] * Quits: npdoty (npdoty@public.cloak)
# [08:23] * Quits: Judy (jbrewer@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [08:24] * Quits: karl (~karlcow@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [08:24] * Quits: jxck (~jxck@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [08:24] * Quits: kbx (~kbx@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [08:25] * Joins: karl (~karlcow@public.cloak)
# [08:26] * Quits: zqzhang (~zqzhang@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [08:26] * Quits: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak) (mjs)
# [08:27] * Quits: igarashi (~igarashi@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [08:29] * Quits: hjlee (~hjlee@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [08:30] * Quits: igarashi_ (~igarashi@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [08:30] * Quits: neochoon (~neochoon@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [08:31] * Quits: Hyunjin (~Hyunjin@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [08:32] * Quits: kimwooglae (~kimwooglae@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [08:35] * Joins: jeff_ (Jeff@public.cloak)
# [08:36] * Joins: Judy (jbrewer@public.cloak)
# [08:38] * Joins: JonathanJ3 (~JonathanJ3@public.cloak)
# [08:38] * Quits: clapierre (~clapierre@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [08:43] * Quits: dom (dom@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [08:45] * Joins: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak)
# [08:45] <adrianba> TOPIC: Directory upload
# [08:45] * Joins: cscho (~cscho@public.cloak)
# [08:46] <adrianba> alia: want to do something like the old FileSystem API but new
# [08:46] <adrianba> ... don't think FileSystem API should be dependency for this
# [08:46] * Joins: projector_ (~projector@public.cloak)
# [08:46] <adrianba> ... file upload first and then file system later
# [08:47] <adrianba> annevk: that's fine with us too - we're not implementing FS API yet
# [08:47] <adrianba> ... but we do want to do this
# [08:47] <adrianba> alia: okay, not hearing any objections
# [08:47] <adrianba> ... also heard about security/privacy concerns
# [08:47] <adrianba> ... when you select folder, you give the site explicit permission to go through the folder
# [08:48] <adrianba> ... we heard from Mozilla concerns about this
# [08:48] <adrianba> ... there might be hidden files, files user didn't know were there, etc.
# [08:48] <adrianba> ... conversation with martin to look at this again
# [08:48] <adrianba> ... about whether we need some restrictions in place
# [08:48] <adrianba> mt: don't know what the world looks like if we decide the security is terrible
# [08:49] <adrianba> ... we'd say we don't want to ship the API
# [08:49] <adrianba> ... but I've been convinced we can ship the API
# [08:49] <adrianba> ... so I need to persuade the folks
# [08:49] <adrianba> ... not clear we need the API but that's a different topic
# [08:49] * Joins: kimwooglae (~kimwooglae@public.cloak)
# [08:49] <adrianba> chaals: seems entirely clear we do need this
# [08:49] <adrianba> ... uploading one file at a time is painful
# [08:50] <adrianba> annevk: we have upload multiple
# [08:50] * Quits: JonathanJ3 (~JonathanJ3@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [08:50] <adrianba> chaals: yes, but when you have a folder structure it is easier to do in one go
# [08:50] <adrianba> ... hidden files, I know there are data files that get created
# [08:50] <adrianba> ... instinct is don't upload things I can't see
# [08:50] * Quits: za12 (~androirc@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [08:51] <adrianba> ... is that acceptable or are some of those files necessary?
# [08:51] * Joins: za12 (~androirc@public.cloak)
# [08:51] <adrianba> ... e.g. in unix file system lots of hidden files that make things work
# [08:51] <adrianba> annevk: hidden files created by OS probably okay not to upload
# [08:51] <adrianba> ... but created by the user probably necessary
# [08:51] <adrianba> for example .htaccess or .git
# [08:52] <adrianba> s/for/... for/
# [08:52] * Quits: ivan (ivan@public.cloak) ("My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…")
# [08:52] <adrianba> alia: think one viewpoint was there should be allow list based on name
# [08:52] <adrianba> chaals: sounds dreadful, problem is knowing how they were created
# [08:52] <adrianba> alia: going to need a policy to do all or none
# [08:52] <adrianba> ... another things I heard was restricting to just https
# [08:53] * Joins: annbass (~annbass@public.cloak)
# [08:53] * Quits: za12 (~androirc@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [08:53] <adrianba> ... not sure that is the right idea - legacy API doesn't have this restriction
# [08:53] * Joins: za12 (~androirc@public.cloak)
# [08:53] <adrianba> annevk: any new thing that involves user data should not go over http
# [08:53] <adrianba> alia: already do file uploads over http
# [08:53] <adrianba> annevk: but not a good reason to keep doing bad ideas
# [08:54] <adrianba> alia: primary concern is that this is new API to do the same use case as old chrome API
# [08:54] <adrianba> ... advantage is promises and asynchrony
# [08:54] <adrianba> ... other than that if they are not getting the functionality because of https then they will use the old one
# [08:55] <adrianba> chaals: might get "it works in other browsers"
# [08:55] <adrianba> ... perhaps chrome will add restriction to current API
# [08:55] <adrianba> ... web is moving to https - might get away with doing restriction for this API
# [08:55] <adrianba> annevk: one thing that would be interesting is how much usage on non https sites
# [08:56] * Quits: kurosawa (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [08:56] <adrianba> mjs: also worth asking is what the threat model we're defending against
# [08:56] <adrianba> ... doing on general principle for new features is silly
# [08:56] <adrianba> ... can imagine you think you are uploading a file somewhere
# [08:56] <adrianba> ... not ssl site
# [08:57] <adrianba> ... but hijacker is uploading elsewhere than you think
# [08:57] <adrianba> ... is this ever a bad thing since they weren't using ssl anyway
# [08:57] <adrianba> annevk: might make a mistake about folder you pick and send files you didn't want in the clear
# [08:58] <adrianba> ... bigger risk because of folders
# [08:58] <adrianba> mjs: almost an argument for not having this API
# [08:58] <adrianba> chaals
# [08:58] <adrianba> s/chaals//
# [08:59] <adrianba> chaals: don't think there is some particular threat - this is part of pushing people to https
# [08:59] <adrianba> ... if lots of people using chrome API are already on https then the others may diminish
# [08:59] <adrianba> ... would be concerned if we upload hidden files
# [08:59] <adrianba> alia: how about making it https only and see if we get pushback
# [09:00] * Quits: takeshi (~takeshi@public.cloak) ("Leaving...")
# [09:00] <adrianba> ... easier to remove the restriction later than add it on later
# [09:00] <adrianba> mt: perfectly reasonable
# [09:00] <adrianba> ... need people from chrome team to be part of the conversation
# [09:00] <adrianba> ...premature to make decision to support non-https yet
# [09:00] <adrianba> s/...p/... p/
# [09:01] * Joins: kurosawa (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
# [09:01] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@public.cloak) ("My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…")
# [09:01] <adrianba> mt: my position is that file upload that we have had in the web since forever in clear text was a mistake but everything was at that time
# [09:01] <adrianba> alia: agreed
# [09:01] <adrianba> alia: for new API directory property called path
# [09:01] * Joins: clapierre (~clapierre@public.cloak)
# [09:01] <adrianba> ... question about if this is useful
# [09:01] <adrianba> ... never had this in old File System API
# [09:02] <adrianba> ... maybe this isn't needed - it is a convenience thnig
# [09:02] * Parts: richardschwerdtfeger (~RichS@public.cloak)
# [09:02] <adrianba> annevk: when you serialise it to send there is just the filename with the path
# [09:02] <adrianba> alia: I think this is a different issue
# [09:02] * Quits: annbass (~annbass@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [09:02] <adrianba> annevk: thinking about an analogy to serialization
# [09:03] <adrianba> alia: questioning the utility of the attribute
# [09:03] <adrianba> annevk: should have a single thing with path and file name
# [09:03] * Quits: tzviya (~tsiegman@public.cloak) ("")
# [09:03] * Joins: tzviya (~tsiegman@public.cloak)
# [09:03] * Quits: JeffH (~JeffH@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [09:05] <adrianba> adrianba: don't think you should merge path and filename - always will want filename and don't want to keep splitting
# [09:06] <adrianba> annevk: maybe a path attribute - not sure
# [09:08] <adrianba> [discussion about how you might use folder name or not]
# [09:08] * Joins: ivan (ivan@public.cloak)
# [09:09] * Quits: hellojintae (~hellojintae@public.cloak) ("")
# [09:12] * Quits: guillaume (guillaume@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [09:12] * Joins: kurosawa_ (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
# [09:13] * Quits: kurosawa (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [09:13] * kurosawa_ is now known as kurosawa
# [09:14] <adrianba> [discussion about use of directory names vs. paths]
# [09:14] <adrianba> chaals: leave out path and see if anyone complains
# [09:14] <adrianba> alia: right now there is a description of the UI in the spec
# [09:15] <adrianba> ... not clear that this is a good idea
# [09:15] <adrianba> ... we have an API in the spec because we have this UI
# [09:15] <adrianba> ... in the spec there is a control when you add folder attribute to input element
# [09:15] <adrianba> you get two buttons, one for files and one for folders
# [09:15] <adrianba> s/you/... you/
# [09:16] <adrianba> ... not all OS allow file and folders to be picked together today
# [09:16] <adrianba> ... but might not in future
# [09:16] <adrianba> hober: don't think the spec should have to work around system bugs in Windows and Linux
# [09:17] <adrianba> alia: if we make it platform agnostic then it won't readily support APIs that Apple has
# [09:17] <adrianba> annevk: problem was that the spec is very prescriptive
# [09:17] <adrianba> ... about how UX should look
# [09:18] * Joins: alia (~alia@public.cloak)
# [09:18] <alia> https://wicg.github.io/directory-upload/proposal.html
# [09:22] * Quits: veihske (~veihske@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [09:24] * Quits: kimwooglae (~kimwooglae@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [09:25] <adrianba> mjs: for rendering of the control, if you specify both files and folders the UA must allow this capability
# [09:25] <adrianba> ... but it's optional how
# [09:25] <adrianba> ... perhaps we should have something better than calling click
# [09:26] <adrianba> slightlyoff: we can't support UX in this kind of spec
# [09:26] <adrianba> alia: okay, will follow mjs suggestion
# [09:26] <adrianba> mt: don't have a flag, just have three functions, and files, folders, and both and then both might not be available
# [09:27] * Quits: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak) (mjs)
# [09:27] <adrianba> chaals: adjourned
# [09:27] * Quits: ygkim (~ygkim@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [09:29] * Quits: jeff_ (Jeff@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
# [09:29] * Quits: katsu (~katsu@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [09:31] * Quits: kawai (~kawai@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [09:33] * Quits: cscho (~cscho@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [09:33] * Quits: samLiu (~samLiu@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [09:33] * Quits: projector_ (~projector@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [09:33] * Quits: alia (~alia@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [09:37] * Quits: dka (~dka@public.cloak) (dka)
# [09:40] * Quits: karl (~karlcow@public.cloak) ("The deeper I go / the deeper I go / green mountains - Santoka")
# [09:40] * Joins: Judy_alt (jbrewer@public.cloak)
# [09:41] * Quits: mathieucitrix (~mathieucitrix@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [09:47] * Quits: Judy (jbrewer@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [09:53] * Quits: plh (plehegar@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
# [09:53] * Quits: nsakai (~nsakai@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [09:54] * Quits: Florian (~Florian@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [09:55] * Quits: mhakkinen (~mhakkinen@public.cloak) (mhakkinen)
# [09:55] * Quits: ivan (ivan@public.cloak) ("My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…")
# [09:55] * Quits: LJWatson (~chatzilla@public.cloak) ("Carpe diem")
# [09:55] * Quits: Joe_ (~Joe@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [09:57] * Quits: kochi (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [09:57] * Quits: tzviya (~tsiegman@public.cloak) ("")
# [09:58] * Quits: rniwa (~textual@public.cloak) ("My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…")
# [09:59] * Quits: clapierre (~clapierre@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [10:00] * Quits: kurosawa (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [10:01] * Quits: yuwei (~yuwei@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [10:01] * Quits: Judy_alt (jbrewer@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [10:01] * Quits: ys (~ys@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [10:06] * Joins: kurosawa (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
# [10:11] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
# [10:11] * Parts: Zakim (zakim@public.cloak)
# [10:12] * Joins: kawai (~kawai@public.cloak)
# [10:13] * Quits: jyasskin (~textual@public.cloak) ("My computer has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…")
# [10:15] * Quits: ivan_ (~ivan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [10:18] * Joins: jxck (~jxck@public.cloak)
# [10:20] * Joins: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak)
# [10:30] * Quits: za12 (~androirc@public.cloak) ("AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )")
# [10:35] * Quits: kawai (~kawai@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [10:40] * Quits: jxck (~jxck@public.cloak) ("")
# [10:52] * Quits: yhirano_ (~uid40668@public.cloak) ("Connection closed for inactivity")
# [10:52] * Joins: wilsonpage (~wilsonpage@public.cloak)
# [11:02] * Quits: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak) (mjs)
# [11:03] * Joins: ArtB (~ArtB@public.cloak)
# [11:05] * Quits: falken (~uid20729@public.cloak) ("Connection closed for inactivity")
# [11:11] * Joins: kurosawa_ (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
# [11:11] * Quits: kurosawa (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [11:12] * kurosawa_ is now known as kurosawa
# [11:22] * Quits: kurosawa (~chatzilla@public.cloak) ("ChatZilla 0.9.90.1-rdmsoft [XULRunner 22.0/20130619132145]")
# [11:33] * Joins: jyasskin (~textual@public.cloak)
# [11:36] * Joins: clapierre (~clapierre@public.cloak)
# [11:39] * Quits: clapierre (~clapierre@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [11:45] * Joins: ivan (ivan@public.cloak)
# [11:46] * Quits: jyasskin (~textual@public.cloak) ("My computer has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…")
# [11:49] * Joins: npdoty (npdoty@public.cloak)
# [12:04] * Quits: npdoty (npdoty@public.cloak)
# [12:09] * Joins: yhirano_ (~uid40668@public.cloak)
# [12:12] * Joins: yusukesuzuki (~yusukesuzuki@public.cloak)
# [12:19] * Quits: jungkees (~uid24208@public.cloak) ("Connection closed for inactivity")
# [12:25] * Joins: Judy (jbrewer@public.cloak)
# [12:33] * Quits: anssik (~uid10742@public.cloak) ("Connection closed for inactivity")
# [12:40] * Joins: clapierre (~clapierre@public.cloak)
# [12:41] * Quits: clapierre (~clapierre@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [13:02] * Joins: Florian (~Florian@public.cloak)
# [13:06] * Quits: ivan (ivan@public.cloak) ("My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…")
# [13:15] * Joins: smaug (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
# [13:18] * wilsonpage is now known as wilsonpage-away
# [13:28] * xiaoqian RRSAgent, bye
# [13:28] <RRSAgent> I see no action items
# [13:28] * Parts: RRSAgent (rrsagent@public.cloak)
# [13:33] * Joins: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak)
# [13:34] * Quits: Florian (~Florian@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [13:48] * Quits: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak) (mjs)
# [13:50] * Joins: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak)
# [13:59] * wilsonpage-away is now known as wilsonpage
# [14:15] * Joins: dka (~dka@public.cloak)
# [14:25] * Joins: Florian (~Florian@public.cloak)
# [14:27] * Joins: jyasskin (~textual@public.cloak)
# [14:33] * Joins: kawai (~kawai@public.cloak)
# [14:42] * Quits: smaug (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [14:52] * Quits: yhirano_ (~uid40668@public.cloak) ("Connection closed for inactivity")
# [14:56] * Joins: mhakkinen (~mhakkinen@public.cloak)
# [15:24] * Joins: jyasskin_ (~textual@public.cloak)
# [15:29] * Quits: jyasskin (~textual@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [15:29] * Joins: jyasskin (~textual@public.cloak)
# [15:32] * Quits: jyasskin (~textual@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [15:32] * Joins: jyasskin (~textual@public.cloak)
# [15:35] * Quits: jyasskin_ (~textual@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [15:39] * Quits: jyasskin (~textual@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [15:40] * Joins: jyasskin (~textual@public.cloak)
# [15:45] * Joins: jyasskin_ (~textual@public.cloak)
# [15:45] * Quits: jyasskin (~textual@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [15:47] * Quits: jyasskin_ (~textual@public.cloak) ("My computer has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…")
# [15:49] * Quits: dka (~dka@public.cloak) (dka)
# [16:01] * Quits: Florian (~Florian@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [16:13] * Quits: kawai (~kawai@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [16:36] * Joins: smaug (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
# [16:56] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@public.cloak)
# [17:18] * Quits: Judy (jbrewer@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [17:18] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@public.cloak) (sicking)
# [17:51] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@public.cloak)
# [18:02] * Joins: Florian (~Florian@public.cloak)
# [18:02] * Quits: wilsonpage (~wilsonpage@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [18:02] * Joins: wilsonpage (~wilsonpage@public.cloak)
# [18:02] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@public.cloak) (sicking)
# [18:04] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@public.cloak)
# [18:10] * Quits: Florian (~Florian@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:12] * wilsonpage is now known as wilsonpage-away
# [18:13] * Quits: wilsonpage-away (~wilsonpage@public.cloak) ("My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…")
# [18:27] * Joins: wilsonpage (~wilsonpage@public.cloak)
# [18:37] * terri_offline is now known as terri
# [18:54] * Joins: jsbell (~jsbell@public.cloak)
# [18:57] * wilsonpage is now known as wilsonpage-away
# [18:58] * Quits: wilsonpage-away (~wilsonpage@public.cloak) ("My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…")
# [19:09] * Joins: kawai (~kawai@public.cloak)
# [19:16] * Quits: kawai (~kawai@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [19:29] * Joins: wilsonpage (~wilsonpage@public.cloak)
# [19:34] * Quits: ArtB (~ArtB@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [19:35] * Joins: ArtB (~ArtB@public.cloak)
# [19:39] * wilsonpage is now known as wilsonpage-away
# [19:40] * Quits: wilsonpage-away (~wilsonpage@public.cloak) ("My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…")
# [19:53] * Quits: ArtB (~ArtB@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [19:53] * Joins: ArtB (~ArtB@public.cloak)
# [20:06] * Quits: ArtB (~ArtB@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [20:12] * Joins: ArtB (~ArtB@public.cloak)
# [20:18] * smaug changes topic to 'web platform f2f at TPAC: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/October2015Meeting#Agenda_Tuesday_October_27 | IRC log http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/'
# [20:20] <smaug> JakeA: so are people seriously trying to push ServiceWorker to become CR soon?
# [20:21] <smaug> even with all the outstanding issues?
# [20:21] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@public.cloak) (sicking)
# [20:28] * Joins: wilsonpage (~wilsonpage@public.cloak)
# [20:28] * Quits: wilsonpage (~wilsonpage@public.cloak) ("Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com")
# [20:31] * terri is now known as terri_offline
# [20:36] * Quits: ArtB (~ArtB@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [20:37] * Joins: marcosc (~marcosc@public.cloak)
# [20:40] * Joins: ArtB (~ArtB@public.cloak)
# [20:53] * Quits: ArtB (~ArtB@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [20:59] * Joins: jyasskin (~textual@public.cloak)
# [21:01] * Quits: jyasskin (~textual@public.cloak) ("My computer has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…")
# [21:03] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@public.cloak)
# [21:06] * Joins: Florian (~Florian@public.cloak)
# [21:14] * Quits: Florian (~Florian@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [21:32] * terri_offline is now known as terri
# [21:39] * Joins: jyasskin (~textual@public.cloak)
# [22:12] * Quits: jyasskin (~textual@public.cloak) ("My computer has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…")
# [22:25] * Joins: marcosc_ (~marcosc@public.cloak)
# [22:25] * Quits: marcosc (~marcosc@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [22:31] * Joins: jyasskin (~textual@public.cloak)
# [22:44] * Joins: ivan (ivan@public.cloak)
# [22:45] * Parts: ivan (ivan@public.cloak) (Bye everybody...)
# [22:52] * Joins: kawai (~kawai@public.cloak)
# [23:07] * Joins: rniwa (~textual@public.cloak)
# [23:08] <JakeA> smaug: which issues would you say are CR blocking? (I'm not familiar with the process)
# [23:18] <smaug> JakeA: well openWindow, FetchEvent IDL issues, etc
# [23:19] <smaug> (and bz was looking at the spec earlier today and was not too happy with it, so assume some more spec bugs to be filed)
# [23:19] <smaug> I see 104 open issues atm
# [23:32] * Quits: mhakkinen (~mhakkinen@public.cloak) (mhakkinen)
# [23:35] * Quits: jyasskin (~textual@public.cloak) ("My computer has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…")
# [23:35] * Joins: ArtB (~ArtB@public.cloak)
# [23:55] * Joins: clapierre (~clapierre@public.cloak)
# [23:58] * Quits: smaug (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# Session Close: Tue Oct 27 00:00:00 2015

Think these logs are useful? Then please donate to show your gratitude (and keep them up, of course). Thanks! — Krijn