/irc-logs / freenode / #webplatform / 2012-10-11 / end

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# Session Start: Thu Oct 11 00:00:01 2012
# Session Ident: #webplatform
# [00:00] <@Ryan_Lane> no
# [00:00] <@Ryan_Lane> php
# [00:00] <NotTomato> Wow, today I decided to look at this: http://www.webplatform.org/logo/ and I love this page so much, I didn't realize that it had the entire color palatte on it. Thanks whoever made this.
# [00:00] <@Ryan_Lane> the skin needs to render every time
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# [00:00] <@Ryan_Lane> RobertPItt: use wikipedia logged-in
# [00:00] <NotTomato> Also hi guys.
# [00:00] <@Ryan_Lane> it's the same situation
# [00:00] <RobertPItt> Ryan_Lane, I see what your saying
# [00:00] <RobertPItt> were engineers right, we should be able to solve this..
# [00:01] <RobertPItt> who fancies building a clone of media wiki in C?
# [00:01] <RobertPItt> lol
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# [00:01] <RobertPItt> but it is a nasty wait time
# [00:01] <@Ryan_Lane> heh
# [00:01] <@Ryan_Lane> well, hphp would help
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# [00:02] <@Ryan_Lane> we really need hphp-vm, though
# [00:02] <@Ryan_Lane> and that's not ready to use
# [00:02] <@Ryan_Lane> we use APC, which helps some
# [00:02] <@Ryan_Lane> and we're using memcache, which helps a lot
# [00:02] <NotTomato> Are we talking about the how slow SMW is responding right now? I was helping someone with a page earlier and we were both confused what was taking so long for the API to update the pages.
# [00:02] <@Ryan_Lane> SMW makes things dramatically slower, too, yes
# [00:03] <@Ryan_Lane> hm. maybe it'll help if I increase the number of apache processes allowed to run
# [00:03] <@Ryan_Lane> we're fine on memory, that wouldn't hurt
# [00:03] <fr0zenice> what worker are you using?
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# [00:04] <RobertPItt> threads and processes are still expensive though, not sure how much of an improvement that will make
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# [00:05] <@Ryan_Lane> likely not much
# [00:05] <@Ryan_Lane> nginx may offer a slight improvement
# [00:05] <@Ryan_Lane> but not a huge one
# [00:05] <@Ryan_Lane> let me increase process count
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# [00:06] <RobertPItt> Nginx + PHP-FPM + APC, you already use APC right
# [00:06] <@Ryan_Lane> fr0zenice: we're using preform
# [00:06] <@Ryan_Lane> *prefork
# [00:06] <@Ryan_Lane> already using apc
# [00:09] <@shepazu> NotTomato: I made that page, using some sources we had from the logo designers and a little SVG app I built
# [00:10] <RobertPItt> Ryan_Lane, what alternatives are there to APC?
# [00:10] <@Ryan_Lane> RobertPItt: a bunch
# [00:11] <RobertPItt> any that can compete
# [00:11] <@Ryan_Lane> the zend one likely
# [00:11] <@Ryan_Lane> but it's proprietary
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# [00:12] <@Ryan_Lane> ok. added some performance tweaks to apache config
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# [00:13] <fr0zenice> http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/html/elements/p <-- fixed this one (especially the import data) as an example, got a bit longer than the old one ^^ http://docs.webplatform.org/w/index.php?title=html/elements/p&oldid=13355
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# [00:14] <RobertPItt> That seems to have made a difference, my load time has sdropped to around 800ms
# [00:14] <RobertPItt> what changes were they
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# [00:17] <RobertPItt> yea, seems to be faster but still v. noticable
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# [00:18] <RobertPItt> I jsut had a 3.5s load time to send back a 304 :/
# [00:18] <NotTomato> Awesome shepazu.
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# [00:24] <RobertPItt> Ryan_Lane, Just read your infrastructure article, good read and good setup there.
# [00:24] <RobertPItt> http://blog.webplatform.org/2012/10/building-web-platforms-infrastructure/#more-13
# [00:25] <@Ryan_Lane> thanks :)
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# [00:27] <@shepazu> Ryan_Lane won't admit it, but I think he's had a fun time working on this project :)
# [00:27] <@Ryan_Lane> oh. I totally have
# [00:27] <@Ryan_Lane> it's ruined my social life, but I totally have had a good time :D
# [00:27] <@shepazu> :D
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# [00:29] <RobertPItt> Ryan_Lane, Thanks for the time bro, We cant always allow corp to run the world so thanks for helping out with the project and allowing all of us to help influence the web
# [00:29] <RobertPItt> great stuff.
# [00:29] <RobertPItt> P.s, are you Google or ....
# [00:29] <@Ryan_Lane> totally welcome.
# [00:29] <@Ryan_Lane> Wikimedia Foundation
# [00:30] <RobertPItt> Ahh great stuff.
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# [00:31] <DeviaVir> Any hot issues going on with webplatform a system engineer/frontend dev can lend a hand with atm? Love what you guys are doing and would like to extend a hand, or two :-)
# [00:31] <RobertPItt> So who is who out of the admins, I know paul_irish is google and you are Wikimedia
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# [00:33] <@Ryan_Lane> RobertPItt: not sure, actually :)
# [00:33] <@Ryan_Lane> I'd have to look through my emails. we didn't really put much emphasis on who came from who within the team
# [00:33] <Garbee> iirc shepazu is W3.
# [00:33] <RobertPItt> shepazu, I think is W3
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# [00:33] <tsinghtao> the infrastructure article is a good read. nice job Ryan_Lane
# [00:33] <@Ryan_Lane> tsinghtao: thanks
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# [00:34] <RobertPItt> divya, i think currently works at Adobe
# [00:34] <@shepazu> yes, I am from W3C. I put this project together
# [00:34] <tsinghtao> i appreciate the thoughts, internal dialog of sorts, as to what the goals are and how you solved for them. cache/deployment etc.
# [00:35] <RobertPItt> ahh great shepazu
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# [00:36] <Garbee> btw shepazu I think it should be safe to drop the ban on the web client now.
# [00:36] <@shepazu> not sure yet, but we might be looking for a sysop to help with the project, so if you know of anyone good (even if they aren't as good as Ryan_Lane) let me know :)
# [00:37] <@shepazu> Garbee: let's wait until we have some safeguards in place
# [00:37] * Garbee nods.
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# [00:37] <@shepazu> at least a captcha, maybe a system login
# [00:37] <Garbee> Oh, syslogin would be good.
# [00:38] <Garbee> But... Perhaps some might want to chat w/o an account on the site.
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# [00:38] <@shepazu> Garbee: yeah...
# [00:38] <Garbee> I wonder if you could set it up so if a user is logged in there is no captcha, but if it is an anonymous user there is a captcha.
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# [00:39] <NotTomato> You can for mediawiki.
# [00:39] <@shepazu> Garbee: complicated to set up, but a good solution
# [00:39] <Garbee> A bit more complicated, but then you don't annoy the actual humans.
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# [00:39] <@shepazu> hi, timbl
# [00:40] <NotTomato> Hey shepazu, are we looking for more volunteer wiki admins?
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# [00:42] <@shepazu> NotTomato: yeah, we need to think of a set of criteria there, but yes
# [00:42] <Garbee> I think what we could do is a check to the cookie. It should be possible to say if the cookie exists or whatever then you display the webchat with X config, else use Y config. I am no cookie checking expert though but I think that would be the most complicated part of that setup if JS is anything like PHP.
# [00:43] <@shepazu> Garbee: the SSO has actually been a real challenge
# [00:43] <NotTomato> Okay, well Frozenice wanted to help out and he's been making some pretty awesome edits, but if you want to come up with criteria first, that makes sense. Refreshing the comments getting stuck in the filter every 10 minutes or so could use some more watching though. >:
# [00:43] <Garbee> shepazu, I have noticed.
# [00:43] <Garbee> I have basically given up going to the Forum due to it.
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# [00:44] <Garbee> I need to login for like every question I want to answer most of the time, or reply.
# [00:44] <NotTomato> Yeah that too.
# [00:44] <@shepazu> Garbee: sorry about that :(
# [00:44] <NotTomato> I got logged out over and over on top of needing to check the filter a lot.
# [00:44] <Garbee> shepazu, It is alpha I get there are going to be issues. For me though I'd rather just keep an eye on things and not answer atm and wait for things to get worked out.
# [00:44] <@shepazu> NotTomato: if you recommend Frozenice, have him come chat with me
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# [00:44] <Garbee> I can help more here vs there anyways tbh.
# [00:45] <NotTomato> Okay, he just went to bed but he said he would try talking to you tomorrow, thanks shepazu.
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# [00:45] <Garbee> Still trying to work out this dev tools stuff. That is my primary focus right now.
# [00:45] <@shepazu> ok, cool
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# [00:46] <Garbee> I get the site is Alpha, so I will deal with all the bugs and things now just hoping in like 6-8 months the backend is mostly solid and it is just feature additions at that point.
# [00:47] <Garbee> Even though with this system it looks like it could take a little longer to get things completely stable. The amount of customization I am seeing is sick.
# [00:47] <Garbee> ^^sick being awesome.
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# [00:58] <RobertPItt> shepazu, who is in charge of social
# [00:58] <@shepazu> RobertPItt: you are, now!
# [00:58] <RobertPItt> :/
# [00:59] <@shepazu> you should never have spoken up
# [00:59] <RobertPItt> hehe
# [00:59] <RobertPItt> nooooo
# [00:59] <Garbee> Important lesson people... Don't ask questions unless you want to be put in charge of something.
# [00:59] <tsinghtao> hahhaa points and laughs
# [00:59] <tsinghtao> wait.. sits back down quietly
# [01:00] <@shepazu> RobertPItt: I don't think we have anyone "in charge", but if there is someone to blame, it's me
# [01:00] <RobertPItt> lol, I just wanted to know if "they"/"us" can make a Gogole+ page.
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# [01:00] <RobertPItt> I can do this if need be
# [01:00] <@shepazu> RobertPItt: I think the Google folks mentioned that
# [01:00] <@shepazu> RobertPItt: are you with Google?
# [01:00] <RobertPItt> I am contracted out to do development work on some aspects of hangouts but not an official employee
# [01:01] <@shepazu> RobertPItt: could you please coordinate with Alex Komoroske and Peter Lubbers on that? (maybe Scott Rowe and Paul Irish, too… not sure)
# [01:02] <@shepazu> you need contact info, or do you know them?
# [01:02] <RobertPItt> emails would be useful, I have paul_irish's though
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# [01:06] <lampe2> my brian is to stupid for jquery mobile...
# [01:06] <Nick_Zaccardi> Garbee: Who do you work for?
# [01:06] <Garbee> I have no job.
# [01:06] <Nick_Zaccardi> Garbee: Jealous
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# [01:07] <Garbee> Nick_Zaccardi, Don't be. I'm 20 and still live with my parents. :/
# [01:07] <Nick_Zaccardi> Garbee: Plans?
# [01:07] <Garbee> and can't find an actual job in my area. Every company here has "I.T." people already and aren't really looking for any new people atm.
# [01:07] <lampe2> o0
# [01:08] <tsinghtao> I ended having to move for a job.. not ideal but it happens
# [01:08] <lampe2> Garbee, in my city i could work 24/7 and still do more
# [01:08] <Nick_Zaccardi> lampe2: Me too
# [01:08] <Garbee> Right now, no true plan.
# [01:08] <Nick_Zaccardi> Midwest has all the job openings in the world if you don't mind living in the middle of no where
# [01:08] <Garbee> I have actually had job offers for doing some work with LemonStand stores, but I turned it down since I don't want to do remote work like that.
# [01:08] <andrewjbaker> Garbee: I was 26 when I moved out. Don't rush it, mate.
# [01:08] <lampe2> Nick_Zaccardi, germany her
# [01:09] <Garbee> Especially since my PHP skills aren't that great.
# [01:09] <tsinghtao> I was like someone has to be willing to do work from home or something. but not that lucky. in my case
# [01:09] <Garbee> Southern Virginia, USA here.
# [01:09] <Garbee> Yes, I need to say Southern because if I were in North VA then I'd probably have a job.
# [01:09] <Nick_Zaccardi> lampe2: Germany huh... I took german at Uni.
# [01:09] <Nick_Zaccardi> 2 semester
# [01:09] <Nick_Zaccardi> s
# [01:09] <lampe2> isent PHP dead ? :P
# [01:09] <lampe2> which city ?
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# [01:10] <lampe2> Nick_Zaccardi, which city ?
# [01:10] <Nick_Zaccardi> lampe2: Never been there, just took a few classes
# [01:10] <Nick_Zaccardi> I was in the Czech this summer and came really close though!
# [01:10] <lampe2> lol ? Nick_Zaccardi
# [01:11] <Nick_Zaccardi> As in, I took German classes at my University in America
# [01:11] <lampe2> how did you take classes without being there ?
# [01:11] <lampe2> ahhh okay i understand now :D
# [01:11] <Nick_Zaccardi> :)
# [01:11] <lampe2> i learnd english by watching doctor who :D
# [01:11] <Nick_Zaccardi> hahahaha!
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# [01:11] <Nick_Zaccardi> Dinner calls. Talk to you all later
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# [01:12] <lampe2> okay and i must work on my jquery mobile skills ...
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# [01:14] <tsinghtao> i started watching dr who.. im not sure i learned anything.. hehe
# [01:14] <RobertPItt> http://talk.webplatform.org/chat/ Q&A should be forums as well
# [01:14] <Garbee> tsinghtao, It takes time to learn.
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# [01:15] <Garbee> RobertPItt, I think they may be switching the menu's over to Q&A due to some people complaining that it isn't a true "forum" by the way they think of one.
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# [01:16] <tsinghtao> i would agree with garbee
# [01:16] <Garbee> I call BS on that myself.
# [01:17] <Garbee> I think the Q&A method of a Forum is perfect. You ask a question and get your response and people can vote on the response (as most forums allow now.) It also helps keep things clean. No real need to call it Q&A when it is a Forum just because someone is thinking like it is 1987 and they want a BBS.
# [01:17] <Garbee> Then again, it really is just semantics at this point.
# [01:18] <RobertPItt> I am all for Q&A :)
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# [01:19] <RobertPItt> But there are only Questions and Answers in Q&A, not really Discussion and/or debates. thus Q&A would suffice IMO
# [01:19] <Garbee> You can have discussions.
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# [01:20] <RobertPItt> By naming it Q&A will not encourage discussions though, just answers and votes.
# [01:20] <Garbee> http://talk.webplatform.org/forums/index.php/1334/suggestions-for-new-features --See my answer here.
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# [01:22] <RobertPItt> Is this Q&A running on the SE Platform
# [01:22] <RobertPItt> StackExchange ?
# [01:22] <@shepazu> no
# [01:22] <Garbee> Yea, looks custom from the source.
# [01:23] <RobertPItt> Seems like the UI/UX has been ported for the general SE Platform sites
# [01:23] <eternicode> RobertPItt, no, http://www.question2answer.org/
# [01:23] <@shepazu> Question2Answer
# [01:23] <Garbee> That would explain SSO issues. Trying to get Mediawiki and this to use the same system.
# [01:24] <RobertPItt> yea, SE Intergration would be nice, maybe email Joel S and ask him if it's possible?
# [01:25] <@shepazu> RobertPItt: it's not open source
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# [01:25] <RobertPItt> Ahh thatts right
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# [01:25] <RobertPItt> never-mind then
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# [01:31] <lampe2> good night my dev friends
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# [01:33] <RobertPItt> night lampe
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# [02:34] <Garbee> NotTomato, You around?
# [02:35] <NotTomato> Hi Garbee.
# [02:36] <Garbee> Do you mind taking care of the troll post on here real quick? http://talk.webplatform.org/forums/index.php/1628/logout-does-not-keep-me-logged-out --Second answer the comment to that.
# [02:37] <NotTomato> Eternicode's comment?
# [02:37] <Garbee> Yea.
# [02:37] <Garbee> It is completely pointless and unhelpful in any way.
# [02:37] <Garbee> ntm wtf is this? http://talk.webplatform.org/forums/index.php/1080/is-there-no-way-to-deal-with-spam-here
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# [02:37] <Garbee> lolz, a good read though.
# [02:37] <NotTomato> I think it was just someone trying to prove a point that spam can get past the filter, but the problem was fixed.
# [02:37] <eternicode> ...
# [02:37] <NotTomato> He didn't link to any bad sites so I just left it.
# [02:37] <NotTomato> He was just linking off to wikipedia.
# [02:38] <NotTomato> I realize it wasn't a question, but i thought it was basically a "suggestion" to fix the spam filter, lol.
# [02:38] <eternicode> yeah, that spam post was amusing. Popular, too :D
# [02:38] <Garbee> Yea, just wondering what its point was.
# [02:39] <eternicode> its point was the sad lack of spam filter.
# [02:39] <Garbee> As long as it was proving a point I see it just caught me off guard.
# [02:39] <NotTomato> I can hide it if you want though because the filter was fixed and the post is sort of useless now.
# [02:39] <Garbee> Yea, I'd hide it just to keep things clean.
# [02:39] <Garbee> It is good that things get pointed out, but they should be hidden once things are fixed for cleanliness.
# [02:40] <NotTomato> Okay, no problem. :3
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# [02:41] <Garbee> Wow, I would really like to know peoples rational behind their choice to up or down vote something.
# [02:41] <Garbee> A perfectly valid question gets -5 votes.
# [02:41] <NotTomato> I know the feeling, I usually try to clear bad flags when people try to flag something just because "they don't share the same opinion."
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# [02:42] <Garbee> Yea, that is just a bad use of the flag.
# [02:42] <Garbee> I hope none of my flags were improper.
# [02:42] <NotTomato> There isn't really any rules yet though so people just do whatever, I was hoping downvotes would only be used to downvote spam, and not used to downvote something they don't agree with.
# [02:43] <Garbee> I see downvoting if you don't agree or think there is a better solution. But when you downvote you should comment and say why.
# [02:43] <NotTomato> Or maybe downvote incorrect "a priori" rational answers so to say.
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# [02:43] <NotTomato> But downvoting opinions is kind of silly, and that happens a lot.
# [02:43] <Garbee> Here is what I am referring to btw: http://talk.webplatform.org/forums/index.php/1631/english-first-which-right-order-become-successful-developer
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# [02:44] <Garbee> Obvioulsy English is not this persons native language. At least they are trying to use it.
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# [02:44] <NotTomato> Yeah, he posted his question earlier in spanish and i asked him to repost it in english, then the poor guy got downvoted just because his english wasn't that great.
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# [02:44] <NotTomato> It kinda sucks. :
# [02:44] <NotTomato> :/
# [02:44] <eternicode> are there plans to allow commenting on questions?
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# [02:45] <Garbee> Yea. At lesat Irishb gave a proper answer.
# [02:45] <NotTomato> eternicode, that would be something to ask shepazu, or maybe report as an enhancement with the bug filing so a developer can consider adding it.
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# [02:52] <NotTomato> Also Garbee, I can't see who flags what, haha, but I'm sure you haven't done anything wrong.
# [02:52] <Garbee> NotTomato, Yea I'm sure. All of mine are pretty obvious.
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# [02:55] <Garbee> Although, I am flagging this since I think it should be removed: http://talk.webplatform.org/forums/index.php/1575/sublime-text --We should not become a support channel for software.
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# [02:57] <NotTomato> Yeah true, thanks for pointing that out Garbee~
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# [02:59] <Garbee> I have some ideas to help smooth out what is acceptable or not. I will work on it more tomorrow and throw it into the Mailing List.
# [02:59] <Garbee> Too late for me to do an email now, the language will just suck.
# [02:59] <NotTomato> Okay that would be awesome.
# [03:01] <Garbee> I do know that we need to avoid becoming a place for support like that. People should go to proper places for software like that like #sublimetext or their forum. I would love to know why someone would think it is a good idea to post that there.
# [03:01] <Garbee> Thanks for taking care of it though.
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# [03:03] <NotTomato> Garbee: eh such is life, there was some pretty funny philosophy questions floating around on the forum for a second before I deleted them last night, like people asking when the world was going to end, and what god is, etc.
# [03:03] <Garbee> Yea, I flagged some of those. ;)
# [03:03] <Garbee> I think that was more people being funny with the new system.
# [03:03] <NotTomato> Thanks for that, it helped me get through pages a lot faster.
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# [03:04] <Garbee> At least now I know the flags do something. :P
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# [03:13] <eternicode> varnish is throwing 503s D:
# [03:13] <NotTomato> Yeah I'm getting them too.
# [03:13] <Garbee> uh-oh
# [03:13] <NotTomato> shepazu?
# [03:13] <NotTomato> paul_irish?
# [03:13] <Garbee> shepazu got sum work to du.
# [03:14] <@paul_irish> where is ryan_lane when you need him :/
# [03:14] <Garbee> Oh, Hi Paul.
# [03:14] <Garbee> Did the doctor need to do surgery or is it just pills?
# [03:15] <@shepazu> NotTomato: what's up?
# [03:15] <@paul_irish> sinusitis
# [03:15] <@shepazu> sigh
# [03:15] <Garbee> 503's on the site shep.
# [03:15] <Garbee> Ouch, sorry Paul.
# [03:15] <_Rainulf> Only wiki is getting 503, the rest seems fine
# [03:16] <@shepazu> working on it
# [03:19] <Garbee> paul_irish, Was this you leaving the doctor's office? http://i.imgur.com/x4Jpe.jpg
# [03:20] <@paul_irish> bingo.
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# [03:21] <Garbee> Well, here is one to hopefully make you smile a little: http://i.imgur.com/tqKrZ.jpg
# [03:22] <@paul_irish> thanks :)
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# [03:47] <@shepazu> back up
# [03:47] <@shepazu> sorry for the downtime
# [03:47] <Garbee> Thanks guys.
# [03:47] <Garbee> and any gals involved.
# [03:48] <NotTomato> Thanks shepazu.
# [03:48] <eternicode> w00t.
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# [03:49] <eternicode> alhough.... now, the single-signon seems broken. Login workflow from forums through wiki login back to forums doesn't work.
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# [03:49] <_Rainulf> awesome, thanks shepazu
# [03:49] <eternicode> (at the risk of being flamed for saying "doesn't work" XD )
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# [03:49] <@shepazu> thank Ryan_Lane
# [03:49] <Garbee> SSO has been glitchy since it launched.
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# [03:50] <eternicode> right, but it's not working *at all* for me atm
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# [03:51] <Garbee> My SSO is still working.
# [03:52] <eternicode> hmmm
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# [03:55] <eternicode> hm, worked after clearing my webplatform.org cookies. weird.
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# [04:04] <Garbee> NotTomato, Are these the syntaxes to edit the wiki? http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Formatting
# [04:04] <Garbee> Just making sure those haven't changed.
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# [04:08] <Garbee> nvm, I'm an idiot. Preview button told me all I needed.
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# [04:22] <NotTomato> Oh sorry, yes, that's the Wiki markup, Garbee. Another fast way to learn wiki markup is by just looking at the edit source or looking at template sources, you could also write a test page if you want in your own namespace if you're unsure about something that you're doing here: http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/UserWiki:Garbee
# [04:22] <NotTomato> http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/UserWiki:Tomato I use my userspace for a to-do list for myself. o;
# [04:22] <NotTomato> Just an example of stuff you could do with it.
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# [04:22] <arkhi> Good morning
# [04:23] <NotTomato> Hi arkhi.
# [04:23] <Garbee> NotTomato, Yea, I knew it was on Mediawiki but wasn't sure if the syntaxes were changed at all. But right after asking I realized I could just test and use the preview button.
# [04:23] <Garbee> I was adding a bit to the Planning a Website page.
# [04:23] <NotTomato> Oh okay.
# [04:23] <Garbee> Noticed it was empty so decided to add a little tonight and will probably work on it some more tomorrow.
# [04:24] <Garbee> That and try to finish off this dev tools layout so I can start adding that in a few days.
# [04:24] <NotTomato> Awesome.
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# [04:31] <@shepazu> do you guys know any good wiki tools to help find things that are wrong and need fixing? I'd like for the flags and comments to help there, and a page to break them into categories
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# [04:49] <NotTomato> you want flags to break the pages into categories like Category:Stubs?
# [04:49] <NotTomato> When people enter variables?
# [04:49] <NotTomato> shepazu.
# [04:50] <@shepazu> NotTomato: not sure I understand the question
# [04:50] <NotTomato> I think I'm confused by your question.
# [04:51] <NotTomato> You want a tool to help find pages that are being flagged, right?
# [04:52] <NotTomato> Or you want a tool that corrects wiki markup? There are some things like that.
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# [04:53] <@shepazu> NotTomato: let's talk about it tomorrow :)
# [04:53] <techcruiser> hello all, I'm new to this whole thing but it looks like the next step we need to take as far as the internet is concerned. I registerednow what??
# [04:53] <@shepazu> I'm losing my brains.
# [04:53] <NotTomato> Okay.
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# [04:54] <arkhi> techcruiser: Now, if you want to help, you can follow the Get Started links on the website, I think.
# [04:54] <arkhi> techcruiser: good morning. :)
# [04:54] <@shepazu> techcruiser: what he said :)
# [04:54] <techcruiser> good morning
# [04:54] <NotTomato> Hi techcruiser, here's the page arkhi mentioned http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/WPD:Getting_Started
# [04:54] <arkhi> Thanks NotTomato :)
# [04:55] <techcruiser> ok ill give it a more comprehensive look
# [04:55] <@shepazu> hmmm… who changed the topic?
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# [04:55] <@shepazu> I don't like that "English only" stuff
# [04:56] * shepazu changes topic to 'WebPlatform: ask and answer questions about web development and design • FAQ: http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/WPD:FAQ • logs: http://talk.webplatform.org/chatlogs • bugs: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/describecomponents.cgi?product=webplatform.org'
# [04:57] <NotTomato> shepazu, I'm not really sure. It was changed last night though.
# [04:58] <NotTomato> Is the Q&A also multi-language? I was told it was a few times.
# [04:58] <techcruiser> can only programmers contribute? I'm a video editor and overall technophile
# [04:58] <NotTomato> wasn't*
# [04:58] <NotTomato> sorry
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# [04:59] <arkhi> techcruiser: I guess you can always help with the 5 minutes tasks, if you don’t feel comfortable with some techno…
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# [05:00] <techcruiser> i have a little programming exp, but overall I'm software implementation and video and social media
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# [05:10] <@shepazu> techcruiser: not at all! we are trying to get designers and other kinds of techies in here too
# [05:11] <@shepazu> techcruiser: your contribution path may be a little different… I'm happy to talk with you about where you think we could improve our video and audio materials
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# [05:17] <leo_> any whitehat hacker here?
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# [05:51] <@paul_irish> hey letterpress!
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# [05:53] <letterpress> well hello there!
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# [05:55] <letterpress> paul_irish, very interested in webplatform because we're putting up a similar community site for letterpress instruction next month. we have had some similar ideas (chat/forum/launch in alpha), and we've gotten some good ideas from your site (article tagging/flow chart/tasks by time). how has the launch gone?
# [05:58] <techcruiser> shepazu i would love to contribute any way i can
# [06:00] <techcruiser> shepazu let me know what i can do
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# [06:10] <@shepazu> letterpress: ups and downs :)
# [06:11] <@shepazu> letterpress: be very careful with the chat
# [06:11] <@shepazu> I can advise or help you with that
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# [06:12] <letterpress> shepazu, thanks. Our other contributors are telling me not to have chat. but i have this idea that chat could help build a community around the site.
# [06:13] <@shepazu> letterpress: we found a lot of disruptive behavior because of chat… I had to turn the web client off
# [06:13] <@shepazu> but there is also a lot of helpful participation, so I do think it's worth it
# [06:13] <letterpress> oh really.
# [06:13] <@shepazu> you just need to be careful in how you execute it
# [06:13] <letterpress> trolls and such?
# [06:13] <@shepazu> yes
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# [06:16] <letterpress> i was planning to have a similar (but different) web client, so that non-techies can participate. ultimately we could require authentication if things get out of hand…because it's our own chat server.
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# [06:20] <letterpress> how do you guys handle moderation, and has that been a challenge? i worry about the trolls going straight to the site content (more than to the chatroom).
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# [06:34] <NotTomato> hi letterpress.
# [06:34] <NotTomato> Are you talking about the moderation of the chat, forum or wiki?
# [06:35] <letterpress> wiki
# [06:35] <NotTomato> Well, any user can revert a edit, so if there is a vandal, even you can protect the wiki.
# [06:36] <NotTomato> But there are AbuseFilters that catch obvious spam, like if you put a bunch of random symbols on a page, or start deleting content off pages when your account is new by replacing them with links (bot do this a lot), the filter will tag the edit or prevent them from doing it.
# [06:36] <NotTomato> So most simple bot spam should be blocked.
# [06:36] <letterpress> oh interesting.
# [06:37] <NotTomato> As for deleting a page that gets past the filter, you can just add the flags template to it and mark it for deletion, one of the admins will get it. Hopefully you don't see too much spam getting past the filter though.
# [06:38] <NotTomato> Sometimes vandals come around, but they usually give up pretty fast if you revert their edits.
# [06:38] <letterpress> interesting. as far as making sure content is good, objective, does each page have an editor behind the scenes ensuring its quality?
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# [06:40] <jeffslofish> hello
# [06:40] <NotTomato> Well, everyone can watch the page, the community will most likely slowly improve the quality over time, if you mean dedicated editors, you can join the mailing list and talk to other contributors about ideas that you have for webplatform.org: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webplatform/
# [06:40] <NotTomato> Hi jeffslofish.
# [06:41] <jeffslofish> i am trying to add some links on the wiki and can't figure it out….when i preview mode when i follow the links, they are to pages that don't exist yet
# [06:41] <NotTomato> Or just listen to their ideas to get an idea of what's going on around the site~
# [06:41] <NotTomato> jeffslofish, can you show me what page you are trying to add it to?
# [06:42] <jeffslofish> sure...
# [06:42] <jeffslofish> http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/Property:Content_quality_flag
# [06:43] <jeffslofish> i was trying to link the properties to the appropriate search
# [06:43] <letterpress> thanks for your thoughts NotTomato. our site is in pre-launch so at the moment it's very top-down and edited. it's hard to imagine what will happen when we open editing to outsiders. so….we're assigning each page an editor so that the work of moderating revisions is evenly distributed.
# [06:44] <NotTomato> No problem.
# [06:44] <jeffslofish> for example, the grammer/spelling item should link to http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/Special:SearchByProperty/Content-20quality-20flag/Grammar-2FSpelling
# [06:45] <NotTomato> Oh okay I see.
# [06:48] <NotTomato> All you want is for the list to link to that grammar and spelling page right, would you care if it was done in Wiki Markup?
# [06:49] <NotTomato> I edited the page to show you an example of how to make the link work with wiki markup jeffslofish.
# [06:49] <NotTomato> If that helps you, just refresh the page and look at where I edited.
# [06:49] <NotTomato> As an example. o;
# [06:49] <jeffslofish> ok
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# [06:50] <jeffslofish> hmmmm, i *thought* that is what i did..
# [06:50] <jeffslofish> but i'll try another one..
# [06:51] <NotTomato> Just use the end of the link of the page you're trying to get to, [[end of link here|what you want the link to display as]].
# [06:51] <jeffslofish> although we probably don't want two of every item, did you do that on purpose - have two Grammer/Spelling items?
# [06:51] <NotTomato> for example if I was linking to my user page, [[User:Tomato|Hello]]
# [06:52] <NotTomato> Right, of course, I was just showing you the difference
# [06:52] <NotTomato> So you could see how to do it. :P
# [06:52] <jeffslofish> and what does "allows value" do? ok ;-)
# [06:52] <jeffslofish> does that need to be after the | ?
# [06:53] <NotTomato> It's a feature of a extension that mediawiki uses called semantics mediawiki, http://semantic-mediawiki.org/wiki/Property:Allows_value
# [06:53] <NotTomato> Using wiki markup will make the page faster though and it's a lot easier to link to things with it.
# [06:54] <NotTomato> What you want the link to display as, such as "Outdated"
# [06:55] <jeffslofish> Right, i just wanted to keep the list how it was and just add links so the only difference is that you can click on them and see the pages that correspond
# [06:55] <@paul_irish> NotTomato: i imagine you saw there is no more webchat :)
# [06:55] <NotTomato> You can read more about links here jeffslofish, http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Links
# [06:55] <jeffslofish> ok thanks
# [06:55] <NotTomato> I saw paul_irish!
# [06:55] <@paul_irish> \o/
# [06:56] <NotTomato> It has been so peaceful in here~
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# [07:08] <NotTomato> paul_irish, do you think we'll ever allow anonymous edits on the wiki?
# [07:09] <@paul_irish> from a copyright/licensing POV i imagine it's safer to not
# [07:09] <NotTomato> ah okay, just curiosity, I put in abuse filters for the situation if it ever happened.
# [07:10] <@paul_irish> are there downsides to having the filters there being unused?
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# [07:12] <NotTomato> No not at all, they will also work on new users.
# [07:12] <NotTomato> They just work equally as well on anonymous users.
# [07:12] <NotTomato> Because the filter will cover both.
# [07:18] <@paul_irish> ok
# [07:18] <@paul_irish> NotTomato: is there any instrumentation to determine if there are false positives from the filters
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# [07:23] <NotTomato> You can test the filters (click on the filter itself and you'll see the test link), you can also examine the edits (click hits) it makes so it's easy to revert false positives, filters that catch them though, I usually just make them do nothing and instead tag the edit so an admin can look at it.
# [07:28] <NotTomato> I am probably just going to set them all to tag though becuase it makes more sense to use the filters for "flagging"
# [07:28] <NotTomato> Like the Q&A.
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# [07:29] <NotTomato> Okay I'm going to go to bed, see you guys tomorrow, take care!
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# [07:31] <buzz_> how many users does web platform.org have?
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# [07:34] <NotTomatoAFK> http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/Special:Statistics
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# [07:57] <Mecil9> ?
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# [07:59] <buzz_> about 10k registered users! nice...
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# [08:00] <Infininight> registered users isn't really a meaningful statistic, just as Facebook or Twitter ;)
# [08:00] <Mecil9> registered wanna 10k/
# [08:00] <Mecil9> ?
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# [08:01] <buzz_> I felt that there should be some sort of ratio … like number of admins should be a fixed ratio of the number of active users...
# [08:01] <buzz_> that way admins can scale as the site scales and people won't be overworked
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# [08:02] <@chrismills> Morning everyone.
# [08:03] <@chrismills> Let me know if you have any questions about webplatform.org!
# [08:03] * zz_fireh is now known as fireh
# [08:05] <Mecil9> Moring????? here is afternoon
# [08:06] <@chrismills> Mecil9: ok - morning/afternoon/evening ;-)
# [08:06] <Mecil9> :P
# [08:07] <arkhi> Good Mornafternoon chrismills. :)
# [08:08] <Mecil9> maybe Good Mornoonevering .....hehe,jok
# [08:08] <@chrismills> arkhi: hey, how are you doing?
# [08:09] <@chrismills> I wanted to ask - who wants to help out by becoming an official webplatform.org IRC moderator?
# [08:09] <arkhi> Trying to help people (and myself) to fill in bugs in Redmine. :p
# [08:09] <arkhi> You? ;)
# [08:10] <@paul_irish> hey chrismills
# [08:11] <@chrismills> arkhi I'm good! Overwhlemed by the response we'd had to webplatform, and helping to fix lots of bugs and stuff, but all good.
# [08:11] <@chrismills> paul_irish: hey Paul - 'sup?
# [08:11] <@paul_irish> updating the Filing Bugs page right now. tackling a few open tabs worth of WPD stuff
# [08:12] <@chrismills> coolio - page probably needed some improvements
# [08:12] <varl> I'd love to help out, anyway I can.
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# [08:14] <@chrismills> varl - sounds good. Can you drop me your e-mail, via a private message? I'm gonna get some information out to you all, get your the proper privileges, etc.
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# [08:14] <varl> chrismills: Gladly sent.
# [08:15] <arkhi> chrismills: For IRC mod, I don’t mind, but it all depends on your expectations. :)
# [08:17] <arkhi> I’ll be here Chinese time, for what it’s worth.
# [08:17] <@chrismills> arkhi - we are basically trying to get a few people in each timezone to help out with moderation, answer a few common questions, warn people to stay on topic, and ban any idiots ;-)
# [08:17] <arkhi> GMT+8
# [08:17] <@chrismills> Taking down the web-based chat has already got rid of a lot of bots and undesirable stuff, which is cool
# [08:18] <@chrismills> We wouldn't expect a lot
# [08:20] * chrismills changes topic to 'webplatform Support and conversation about webplatform.org • FAQ: http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/WPD:FAQ • logs: http://talk.webplatform.org/chatlogs • bugs: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/describecomponents.cgi?product=webplatform.org'
# [08:20] <arkhi> That’s cool, yeah, although I wouldn’t parse every single conversation, probably. :)
# [08:21] * chrismills changes topic to 'Support and conversation about webplatform.org • FAQ: http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/WPD:FAQ • logs: http://talk.webplatform.org/chatlogs • bugs: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/describecomponents.cgi?product=webplatform.org'
# [08:22] <@chrismills> arkhi: obviously we wouldn't expect you to be on all the time, but when you are on, a bit of help would be greatly appreciated. You up for it? Send me your e-mail address in a private message, and I'll hook you up with some details.
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# [08:29] <arkhi> Let’s try this… :)
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# [08:57] <@chrismills> Morning everyone
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# [08:57] <@chrismills> Messages today - 1. Who wants to be a guest moderator?
# [08:57] <@chrismills> Get in touch with me on a private message, if so!
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# [08:58] <@chrismills> 2. I will be creating a "most wanted tasks" page soon, to help people find tasks to do on the WPD content more easily
# [08:58] <arkhi> (2. Great if it’s before the weekend!)
# [08:59] <@chrismills> 3. Let me know what troubles you've been having! And I don't mean relationship troubles (although I can recommend a good doctor for that!)
# [08:59] <@chrismills> arkhi: I will try to get some stuff on it before the weekend.
# [08:59] <arkhi> You’re awesome. :)
# [08:59] <arkhi> How many hands already?
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# [09:01] <@chrismills> arkhi - we tweeted some stats yesterday
# [09:01] <@chrismills> https://twitter.com/WebPlatform/status/255763792946950144
# [09:01] <socialhapy> ★ Tweet from WebPlatform: http://t.co/v0lw6qCq Day 1 stats: * 86k visitors * 720k page views * 7K new users * 280 editors * 2,036 pages, 11K edits Thanks! ★ http://bit.ly/QTqzTW
# [09:01] <@chrismills> pretty cool huh?
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# [09:02] <arkhi> Indeed. :)
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# [09:05] <ctoveloz[BR]> nice cool :)
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# [09:11] <desbenoit> Hi!
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# [09:12] <arkhi> Hola desbenoit
# [09:12] <ctoveloz[BR]> hi
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# [09:14] <@chrismills> desbenoit: hey Seb!
# [09:15] <desbenoit> I was wondering, will some of the WPD team be at TPAC?
# [09:15] <@chrismills> I will
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# [09:15] <@chrismills> Doug and Lea will too
# [09:15] <@chrismills> And possibly Eliot and Tobie
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# [09:17] <desbenoit> Oh, great. I'm from Lyon and there's a meet up :)
# [09:17] <desbenoit> Perhaps it could be a great time to see your faces.
# [09:17] <@chrismills> dontcallmedom: Dom, your nick in this room is way too long ;-) I got called out for that when I started my W3C fellowship ;-)
# [09:18] <@chrismills> desbenoit: cool - it would be great to meet you! I will be at the meet up, presenting some cool demos on behalf of Opera
# [09:19] <desbenoit> chrismills great.
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# [09:20] <arkhi> On the contrary, dontcallmedom’s email is really short. :)
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# [09:21] <@chrismills> arkhi: with one hand he giveth; the the other, he taketh away ;-)
# [09:21] <arkhi> :)
# [09:23] <As4xk> Good morning :)
# [09:23] <@chrismills> As4xk: Good morning to you too. How are things?
# [09:24] <arkhi> morning As4xk
# [09:25] <As4xk> Good good :) What atbout you guys?
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# [09:25] <As4xk> chrismills: What do you do at Opera? :)
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# [09:25] <@chrismills> Yeah, pretty good. The IRC has calmed down a bit, now we've turned off the web chat ;-)
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# [09:26] <As4xk> hehe. I saw that there were some troubles yesterday :p
# [09:26] <@chrismills> As4xk: I ask myself that every day ;-)
# [09:26] <@chrismills> As4xk: I am the lead editor of http://dev.opera.com, and I also do lot of tech writing, demo writing, and open standards evangelism - talking to developers about best practices, speaking at conferences, etc.
# [09:27] * dontcallmedom considers changing its nick to dontcallmedontcallmedom
# [09:27] <@chrismills> dontcallmedom: you should also add "please" as a prefix ;-)
# [09:27] <desbenoit> -please-dontcallmedom
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# [09:28] <dontcallmedom> how about dontf*ckcallmedom?
# [09:28] <@chrismills> pleasedontcallmedontcallmedomotherwiseiwillkickyourass ?
# [09:28] <dontcallmedom> sounds like a winner
# [09:30] <ctoveloz_br> !translate
# [09:30] <desbenoit> youshallnotcallmedom gandalf style
# [09:30] <As4xk> chrismills: Nice. Sounds like fun :)
# [09:30] <ctoveloz_br> !translate
# [09:31] <@chrismills> As4xk: yeah, it's a great job. I have no complaints!
# [09:31] <ctoveloz_br> !translag
# [09:31] <arkhi> ctoveloz_br: Can we help you with anything?
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# [09:31] <As4xk> dontcallmedom: If you want us to call you dom, why do you tell us not to?
# [09:31] <Grephix> Morning
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# [09:32] <As4xk> ctoveloz_br: http://translate.google.com/
# [09:32] <@chrismills> As4xk: At the moment I am spending a lot of my time contributing to webplatform.org ;-)
# [09:32] <dontcallmedom> my nick should really be dontcallmeDOM
# [09:32] * dontcallmedom is now known as dontcallmeDOM
# [09:32] <@chrismills> Grep
# [09:32] <dontcallmeDOM> there
# [09:32] <@chrismills> Grephix: hey there!
# [09:32] <As4xk> ok DOM
# [09:32] <Grephix> Hiya mate :)
# [09:32] <Grephix> Anything new?
# [09:33] <ctoveloz_br> [arkhi]: I am trying to install a script on my mirc to self translation
# [09:33] <@chrismills> Grephix: well, we turned the web-based chat off, and that has got rid of a lot of the bots and weird crap that was happening in here. Much less noise ;-)
# [09:33] <arkhi> ctoveloz_br: Maybe could you do your tests in a test chan instead? :)
# [09:33] <arkhi> Morning Grephix
# [09:33] <Grephix> I noticed, you guys did so yesterday right?
# [09:33] <Grephix> Hi arkhi
# [09:34] <ctoveloz_br> ok..
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# [09:34] <@chrismills> Grephix: I have filed about a million bugs on the bug tracker, of things I am intending to do to improve things.
# [09:34] <arkhi> Thanks ctoveloz_br
# [09:34] <Grephix> U've had a busy night? ;)
# [09:34] <@chrismills> Grephix: and I am actively looking for IRC moderators to help us out. Do you fancy the job?
# [09:34] <As4xk> chrismills: What about putting a bot in here that takes care of flooding and stuff?
# [09:34] <@chrismills> As4xk: we have already got that on to to do list ;-)
# [09:34] <Grephix> Sure mate, would love to
# [09:35] <Grephix> I've got a script that should take care of flooding, written in mIRC script
# [09:35] <Grephix> bans people when:
# [09:35] <Grephix> - sending the same message 3 times within 10 minutes
# [09:35] <Grephix> - sending 4 messages within 5 seconds
# [09:35] <As4xk> Hehe. The list keeps growing i hear :p
# [09:35] <Grephix> automatically removes then ban after 1 minute :>
# [09:36] <@chrismills> Grephix: cool - sounds really useful
# [09:36] <Grephix> I've already shared it with Paul and divya
# [09:36] <As4xk> that might be a bit strict dont you think?
# [09:36] <As4xk> the first rule i mean
# [09:36] <@chrismills> Grephix: can you drop me your e-mail address in a private message, and I'll get you some more info about the IRC moderator thing?
# [09:36] <Grephix> As4xk: sending the same message ey, the exact same words
# [09:36] <As4xk> like: Hi
# [09:37] <Grephix> ofcourse mate
# [09:38] <As4xk> And: hehe
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# [09:39] <As4xk> But guessing it's not a problem as people will learn from that. Just thinking out loud ;)
# [09:39] <Grephix> Well, the script ofcourse can be altered or tweaked
# [09:39] <Grephix> to whatever channel policy :)
# [09:40] <Grephix> I should really search for the bot I once wrote in PHP, lol
# [09:40] <Grephix> As the mIRC script is only effective as long as I am connected to my bouncer
# [09:41] <As4xk> http://sourceforge.net/projects/abbot.berlios/
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# [09:42] <Grephix> Mine was based on Eggdrop at the time
# [09:42] <Sandkorn> G'Morning folks.
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# [09:42] <Grephix> Hi Sandkorn :)
# [09:42] <@chrismills> morning Sandkorn
# [09:42] <Sandkorn> :)
# [09:43] <@chrismills> Sandkorn: do you fancy becoming an official webplatform IRC moderator?
# [09:43] <As4xk> Good old eggdrop, with chanstats and other candy ;)
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# [09:45] <kennyluck> Just curious. Would talking about MDN be out of scope here?
# [09:46] <Grephix> Yup As4xk, the times where IRC was awesum
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# [09:46] <Grephix> kennyluck: not really, I guess
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# [09:46] <@chrismills> kennyluck: depends if it relates to webplatform as well? If not, then there are probably better channels with more suited people to help you than here.
# [09:46] <kennyluck> ok
# [09:47] <As4xk> kennyluck try #mdn on irc.mozilla.org
# [09:47] <@chrismills> cheers As4xk
# [09:48] <@chrismills> I was just searching for that ;-)
# [09:48] <kennyluck> As4xk, you got that wrong. It's #devmo :p
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# [09:48] <As4xk> DOH
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# [09:49] <kennyluck> I am not looking for the channel. I just want to know how people think about WPF vs. MDN here.
# [09:51] <As4xk> ok. Guess if there are people here that are also interested, than talking about it in the cat wouldn't be a problem. Bus as chrismills said; Might be more people to talk with in other channels.
# [09:51] <As4xk> yes. in the cat
# [09:52] <@chrismills> MDN right now is better, but we are hoping to grow WPO into a much bigger, better resource. A lot of MDN material has been migrated over here, and we have Moz supporting that goal. I can't comment completely accurately, as I don't work for Moz, but I've heard that Moz will move a lot of their open standards stuff over here, and then have MDn moving more towards a place for Moz product documentation, like Jetpack, B2G, etc.
# [09:52] <@chrismills> Although I doubt they'll let go of their JS ref easily. And who can blame them? It's awesome.
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# [09:57] <kennyluck> As4xk, the point is that having to get onto two IRC server is a pain for some people and my feeling is that talking about it here would be more effective than, say, creating #mdn on irc.freenode.net.
# [09:58] <kennyluck> The Web is a single identity anyway, so is it's material for education :)
# [09:59] <As4xk> true true :)
# [09:59] <@chrismills> kennyluck: which also means that logging into two irc servers shouldn't feel like that much of a bind either ;-)
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# [10:00] <@chrismills> Seriously, I don't mind a bit of chat about MDN, because a lot of issues and thinking will be applicable to both resources anyway
# [10:00] <@chrismills> So therefore useful to both
# [10:00] <@chrismills> As long as we don't stray too drastically off topic
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# [10:00] <As4xk> depends on the popularity of the channels though. If both channels would become popular on it selfs. Than it might get chaotic when everyone taks in the same channel.
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# [10:01] <As4xk> but for most channels that's not a problem ;)
# [10:01] <@chrismills> yeah - this one is unusually active
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# [10:03] <kennyluck> It'll change, in view of the status quo of #devmo.
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# [10:05] <AndIrc> hi guys
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# [10:06] <As4xk> kennyluck: Probably. But for a while i think it will continue to grow, as webplatform.org grows
# [10:07] <As4xk> At least if the webchat returns :p
# [10:07] <As4xk> hi AndIrc
# [10:07] <kennyluck> As4xk, I am not so sure but I am willing to trust you if you are one of the people who is experienced with #wikipedia.
# [10:09] <@tobie> desbenoit, chrismills: I'll be at TPAC
# [10:09] <As4xk> i am not. Did they fall asleep? :p
# [10:09] <desbenoit> tobie great!
# [10:10] * AndIrc is now known as SandsHUN
# [10:11] <SandsHUN> Guys. Anybody knows webplatform.org when became releaye version? Now it is full of bug....
# [10:11] <@tobie> desbenoit: I do live rather close by. :)
# [10:11] <varl> is there a particular reason Apple is listed as a steward but not showing their logo on the site? (besides copyrights, trademark reasons, etc)
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# [10:12] <desbenoit> you're from switzerland if I remember your introduction in the ML, isn't it?
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# [10:13] <SandsHUN> I'm from Hungary...
# [10:13] <As4xk> Have to go. See you :)
# [10:14] <kennyluck> varl, that's an answered question in the forum if I recall correctly.
# [10:15] <SandsHUN> Anyone use Netbeans for developing Android apps?
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# [10:16] <varl> kennyluck: right, thanks. Doesn't answer the specifics, just that they opted out though.
# [10:16] <@tobie> desbenoit: yup, I live in Geneva.
# [10:16] <varl> then again getting "specifics" about why apple does something is a bit of a conundrum.
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# [10:20] <sandroid> morning
# [10:20] <SandsHUN> morning
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# [10:21] <DY> hi guys
# [10:22] <_WiZZarD> morningk peepz
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# [10:22] <sandroid> morning _WiZZarD
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# [10:23] <ctoveloz[BR]> Hi :)
# [10:23] <DY> hi~
# [10:23] <arkhi> Good morning Europe…
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# [10:24] <DY> at here, good afternoon :)
# [10:24] <ctoveloz[BR]> here is 05:13 am
# [10:24] <ctoveloz[BR]> -.-
# [10:25] <DY> u wake up so early~!
# [10:25] <DY> here is 05:00 PM
# [10:25] <ctoveloz[BR]> have not slept
# [10:25] <ctoveloz[BR]> :P
# [10:26] <@chrismills> cool folks!
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# [10:26] <@chrismills> ctoveloz[BR]: not sleeping? wow. I just can't cope worth no sleep
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# [10:27] <ctoveloz[BR]> I'm unemployed, I'm wandering
# [10:27] <@chrismills> Repeat message from earlier - if anyone is interested in being an official webplatform.org moderator, please contact me with a private message.
# [10:28] <DY> i saw the news about "WebPlatform.org Launches" in the HTML5Weekly newletter
# [10:28] <@chrismills> DY: cool!
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# [10:28] <ctoveloz[BR]> was for me to have gone to sleep but I was programming a script to translate for my mirc
# [10:29] <@chrismills> being unemployed must be great for actually having time to code all those experiments you never usually get round to ;-)
# [10:29] <Grephix> It's less great for not having money around to spend on food and a roof over yer head to code all those experiments you never usually get round to :>
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# [10:30] <@chrismills> Grephix: too true. and I have three kids to support, so having money coming in a real worry all the time.
# [10:30] <ctoveloz[BR]> I am employed by a company of canada ... but the workshop so get them ready here in next month;)
# [10:30] <Grephix> True, true. 3 kids hmm?
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# [10:30] <Grephix> What age?
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# [10:31] <@chrismills> 16 months, 4 years and 9 years
# [10:31] <Richard_Ainz> here we are again
# [10:32] <@chrismills> ctoveloz[BR]: nice
# [10:32] <Richard_Ainz> great with the security improvements for access
# [10:32] <@chrismills> Richard_Ainz: yup ;-)
# [10:32] <Grephix> chrismills: oh wauw, quite a year-span between them
# [10:33] <Richard_Ainz> someone picked up my bugreport and yelling poretty fast
# [10:33] <@chrismills> ;-)
# [10:33] <Richard_Ainz> '*prettyu
# [10:33] <@chrismills> Grephix: yes, they are quite a handful
# [10:33] <Richard_Ainz> damn keyboard
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# [10:34] <Grephix> I can understand, lol :)
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# [10:34] <DY> bye guys,, s u next time
# [10:34] <@chrismills> Dy bye now
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# [10:36] <ctoveloz[BR]> look this zone ... but it helps
# [10:36] <ctoveloz[BR]> http://imgur.com/yTyeI
# [10:36] <ctoveloz[BR]> :P
# [10:36] <@chrismills> ctoveloz[BR]: oh wow - that is really col
# [10:37] <ctoveloz[BR]> now missing one for my writing ... but see it tomorrow
# [10:37] <arkhi> ctoveloz[BR]: Excellent!
# [10:38] <ctoveloz[BR]> :)
# [10:38] <arkhi> Be careful that some web service might not get upset with the load of requests, though. :p
# [10:39] <ctoveloz[BR]> jquery and ajax request...
# [10:39] <ctoveloz[BR]> hehe
# [10:40] <Grephix> oh wow ctoveloz[BR], nice one :)
# [10:40] <Richard_Ainz> any decent tutorilas for high level intranet construction somewhere?
# [10:40] <Richard_Ainz> *tutorials
# [10:40] <@chrismills> intranets, huh? Not at the moment
# [10:41] <@chrismills> but we would love to get people writing some!
# [10:41] <Richard_Ainz> well, got this project to build ours from scratch for the IT dep
# [10:41] <@chrismills> Righty
# [10:42] <Richard_Ainz> could be a case study I could write up
# [10:42] <Richard_Ainz> need to write up anyway. loads of ppt stuff
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# [10:45] <@chrismills> Richard_Ainz: please, if you could write it up, that would be superb
# [10:45] <@chrismills> a lot of the technological aspects will be the same as any other site
# [10:46] <@chrismills> but there will be intranet specific stuff that could be really valuable
# [10:46] <@chrismills> If you could catalog the top intranet creation tips, gotchas, pitfalls, main things to worry about, etc.
# [10:47] <@chrismills> Richard_Ainz If you are not sure how best to communicate this/structure this, then I'd be happy to help. I'm an experienced editor/tech writer.
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# [10:51] <mathela> hi everybody ! Just a question. I'm a french webdevelopper. Can i contribute by translating some articles ?
# [10:51] <ctoveloz[BR]> yess
# [10:52] <mathela> :D
# [10:52] <arkhi> Salut mathela…
# [10:52] <mathela> jour arkhi
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# [10:52] <arkhi> mathela: I was given something like a few weeks before we can start. ;)
# [10:52] <arkhi> I mean: I’d be willing to do as you.
# [10:52] <Richard_Ainz> @chrimills : I will give it some thought and keep your offer in mind, need to set up some parameters for basic info
# [10:53] <arkhi> pompage being kinda dead, I would love to contribute to WP
# [10:53] <mathela> ok great !!! maybe we can can create some pages prefixed with "fr_"
# [10:53] <arkhi> Although I’d love pompage to rise again. :p
# [10:53] <carolyns> talking about translations i can do polish. /ping divya :)
# [10:54] <@chrismills> Richard_Ainz: cool - feel free to ping me, on cmills@w3.org
# [10:55] <Sandkorn> AFAIK its just english at the moment and content should be sorted / (re)written first.. :-/
# [10:55] <Grephix> Imo that might be the most wise, Sandkorn
# [10:56] <@chrismills> arkhi, mathela see my comments on translations at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webplatform/2012Oct/0021.html
# [10:56] <Grephix> It'd be a better bet to first have everything structured first, before translating content that will be fully rewritten / restructured or otherwise even deleted anyway
# [10:56] <arkhi> Grephix: +1
# [10:56] <arkhi> Thanks chrismills
# [10:56] <@chrismills> if you want to start do translations right now, and don't want to wait for the site to have it's translation facilities built ;-)
# [10:56] <@chrismills> s/do/doing
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# [10:57] <arkhi> The translations will be pushed to WP later, you mean?
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# [10:59] <@chrismills> arkhi: yes, I think tat's the best way to do it for now
# [10:59] <mathela> ok chrismills i'll start some translations i'll will be back on the chan to know how i can send it to webplatform
# [10:59] <mathela> :D
# [10:59] <@chrismills> if you put them straight on WP, then it may be a lot of work to move it all into the right place
# [10:59] <@chrismills> so better to put them somewhere else for now
# [10:59] <arkhi> mathela: read the link chris send first: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webplatform/2012Oct/0021.html
# [10:59] <arkhi> sent*
# [11:00] <arkhi> wrote*
# [11:00] <arkhi> whatever*
# [11:00] <mathela> that 's why i'm here. id rather like asking how to do something instead of doing in a bad way !
# [11:00] <Grephix> lol arkhi
# [11:00] <Grephix> n1 :D
# [11:01] <@chrismills> Yeah, thanks for reaching out. We appreciate all the help you guys (and gals) are giving us
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# [11:04] <arkhi> oh, is that another chris coming in?
# [11:06] <@chrismills> argh, it's Heilmann…hide ;-) /cc cheilmann
# [11:06] <cheilmann> you can't hide
# [11:07] <@chrismills> I know … ;-|
# [11:07] <cheilmann> also come to London on the 15th of November, Sodom are playing :)
# [11:07] <@chrismills> sweet
# [11:07] <_WiZZarD> London is so far swimming
# [11:07] <_WiZZarD> all across the channel
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# [11:09] <cheilmann> need to pack for San Francisco
# [11:09] <cheilmann> and at one time write my presentation for HTML5devcon
# [11:09] <@chrismills> I need to write a 4 hour workshop by the start of november. Terrified ;-)
# [11:11] <@tobie> Hey folks would having a bot in here help?
# [11:11] <@chrismills> tobie: definitely. We were discussing this earlier. We ought to start speccing out what features we want.
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# [11:12] <@tobie> What about we ship and iterate instead?
# [11:12] <_WiZZarD> chrismills: if it's a *work*shop , you don't have to do the writing ;)
# [11:13] <sz0ka> chrismills: okay I haven't written anything, yet about JSON but I think this weekend will work for me. Unfortunately I wasn't able to get some off time 'cuz of a project which deadline is next week.
# [11:13] <_WiZZarD> let the participants do it :)
# [11:13] <ctoveloz[BR]> puts a new bot topics
# [11:13] <@chrismills> sz0ka: the weekend sounds fine to me!
# [11:13] <@chrismills> _WiZZarD: well, yes, but you still needs slides, examples and exercises to point people to ;-)
# [11:14] <ctoveloz[BR]> puts bot a new topics
# [11:14] <_WiZZarD> heh, their devvers. They are supposed to be able to think ;)
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# [11:15] <@chrismills> _WiZZarD: you'd be surprised...
# [11:15] <_WiZZarD> nope, i deal with devvers all day
# [11:15] * _WiZZarD pours a little sarcasm over his last few statements
# [11:15] <@tobie> chrismills: happy to get something really basic setup and iterate from there.
# [11:16] <@chrismills> tobie: please do - are you ok to handle that?
# [11:16] <@chrismills> I'm currently setting up a group of moderators, and all the info that goes with it
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# [11:17] <@tobie> happy to help with this, yeah.
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# [11:17] <@chrismills> tobie: nice one mate
# [11:17] <@tobie> chrismills: would be awesome if you could give me the 5-10 you'd most like the bot to be able to handle
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# [11:18] <@chrismills> tobie: I'm not sure yet; it'd be good to get some ideas from people on best bot features
# [11:18] <@tobie> chrismills: well, what are the questions you're asnwering most often is a good start
# [11:18] <@chrismills> Grephix: had some good ideas too
# [11:19] <@chrismills> questions most commonly answered...
# [11:19] <@chrismills> Is this project open source
# [11:19] <@chrismills> how do I file bugs
# [11:19] <@chrismills> what do I do about translations
# [11:19] <@chrismills> can we write about server-side stuff on webplatform
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# [11:20] <@chrismills> maybe also a way for people to get help when they're not getting their question answered would be good too
# [11:20] <kranius> hello there
# [11:20] <@chrismills> kranius: hi ;-)
# [11:21] <kranius> good localtime chrismills
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# [11:21] <@chrismills> ;-)
# [11:21] <ctoveloz[BR]> I'll take my protein and go to sleep, bye. Even here 8 hours ;)
# [11:22] <@chrismills> ctoveloz[BR]: ttfn
# [11:22] <Richard_Ainz> Guys, I think webplatform should move away from the current Q&A form and get a real forum. It is messy, hard to browse, repeated questions, etc. Gimme root pwds and I will set up a phpBB. ;-)
# [11:23] <sz0ka> chrismills: okay perfectly :)
# [11:23] <@chrismills> Richard_Ainz: we are intending to structure it better soon, with categories, etc.
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# [11:24] <Munter> phpbb... I hate that forum. And not even because of all the security holes in it
# [11:24] <Richard_Ainz> I hope your backend is easy to manage...:)
# [11:24] <@chrismills> Richard_Ainz: I don't know if a full blown forum would be a good thing or not
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# [11:24] <@chrismills> I personally hate big unwieldy forums, and prefer the lighter approach of a Q&A set up
# [11:24] <Richard_Ainz> Well it is at least proven and working and limitations are known, to all.
# [11:25] <@chrismills> But I guess both have their benefits
# [11:25] <Richard_Ainz> I do not see any benefits in the current form...
# [11:25] <Richard_Ainz> but I an mew to it
# [11:25] <Richard_Ainz> *new
# [11:27] <Richard_Ainz> I use both vBulletin and phpBB, and are also part of coding a custom solution from scratc and we see it all the time, visible parent-child categorization is the answer to many issues
# [11:27] <@chrismills> Righty - yes, we ought to have this
# [11:27] <Richard_Ainz> not least, moderation
# [11:27] <Richard_Ainz> and I am a tough moderator
# [11:28] <Richard_Ainz> so some of your guys need to take a break and review documentation for the sites usage, moderation, categorization...and access of course
# [11:28] <Richard_Ainz> or create it
# [11:30] <kranius> :)
# [11:31] <@chrismills> there is so much for us to do still ;-)
# [11:31] <@chrismills> I think we have got most of this already
# [11:32] <@chrismills> It is a matter of allowing people to find it
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# [11:35] <Richard_Ainz> Yep, but if you delay you risk loosing info and get a bunch of frustrated users leaving the site
# [11:36] <Richard_Ainz> or code som custom import scripts to a new solution
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# [11:43] <ctoveloz[BR]> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyGP0ZyxF5E
# [11:43] <@chrismills> thanks Richard_Ainz - I will start moving forward on those ideas. Can you submit a bug detailing what you think needs to be done with the Q&A, or write some feedback on the mailing list?
# [11:45] <Richard_Ainz> Yes I can do that, but do I need to? I mean this is like breathing for me, and you have some prominent names and brands behind the site, you must have thought of this?
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# [11:56] <@chrismills> Richard_Ainz: we have a lot of named behind the site, but we are only a small number of people actually doing the work ;-) We have probably thought about it, but putting it into action takes time, and having outside feedback on things often helps to prioritise. It's ok, I will follow up on this with the others.
# [11:57] <@chrismills> s/named/names
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# [12:00] <Sandkorn> I wouldnt put up a phpBB-style or exceedingly moderated forum on a sitle like WPF. See SO for example; the community does most of the work. And with the amount of people willing to help here it should work just as fine.
# [12:00] <Grephix> +1 Sandkorn
# [12:00] <Sandkorn> Even tho i have no idea of whats planned - it should be discussed. The mailing list doesnt sound that bad. =)
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# [12:05] <@chrismills> Sandkorn, Grephix: I think Richard_Ainz certainly has some valid concerns, but also that we should see how things play out before making any drastic changes.
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# [12:07] * chrismills sets mode: +o _WiZZarD
# [12:07] * chrismills sets mode: +o Sandkorn
# [12:07] * @Sandkorn nod's
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# [12:08] * chrismills sets mode: +o Grephix
# [12:08] * chrismills sets mode: +o varl
# [12:08] <@Grephix> True dat
# [12:09] * chrismills sets mode: +o arkhisaway
# [12:09] <Boldfish> Hi All.
# [12:09] <@Grephix> Hi Boldfish
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# [12:09] <robertpitt_> Hey Guys.
# [12:09] <@Grephix> hi robertpitt_
# [12:10] <Boldfish> A question - the docs have case sensitive urls - is there a plan to redirect from lower case matches to avoid typos and duplicate content?
# [12:10] <Boldfish> e.g. http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/main_page
# [12:10] <@Grephix> Might be a good idea indeed
# [12:10] <@Grephix> Good point, Boldfish
# [12:11] <@Grephix> For that matter: why are the URLs case sensitive anyway? Why not all convert them to lower case
# [12:12] <Boldfish> I wondered about that, but thought that CSS_properties looked better than css_properties and also there might be instances where case sensitivity was required?
# [12:12] <Boldfish> don't have an example...
# [12:12] <Boldfish> :)
# [12:13] <@Sandkorn> within the css section, everything seems to be redirected to lowercase entries (at least thats the impression i have so far and what i'm doing whenever i spot something)
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# [12:16] <@chrismills> Boldfish, Grephix Yes …;-) One big failing of media wiki is that the URLs are case sensitive. It is really annoying, and the way we have been dealing with it is to try to make sure all the tutorials/references/normal level pages are created with lower case URLs, just to avoid any damaging conflicts.
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# [12:16] <@tobie> wpd FileAPI
# [12:16] <wpdbot> tobie, here is the result of your search for "FileAPI": http://docs.webplatform.org?title=Special%3ASearch&fulltext=Search&search=FileAPI
# [12:16] <@chrismills> You can't overwrite work anyway - if you try to create a URL with the same name as another one in existence, it will tell you to choose another name
# [12:16] <Boldfish> Ah, okay, makes sense to pick one… :)
# [12:16] <@Grephix> chrismills: it's both a blessing and a curse IMO in media wiki
# [12:16] <@chrismills> but it is annoying when you get conflicts with the same URL but written in upper and lower case
# [12:16] <@Grephix> I can imagine in some situations the case sensitivity is a good thing
# [12:16] <Boldfish> Wikipedia does redirects from one to the other...
# [12:16] <@Grephix> In this case however I'd just redirect every single request to the lower case version and make sure all pages are lower cased.
# [12:16] <@tobie> Is there a faq?
# [12:16] <wpdbot> FAQ can be found here: http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/Site_FAQ
# [12:16] <@Grephix> That's indeed a possibility Boldfish, however not really good performancewise
# [12:16] <Boldfish> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Url_normalization
# [12:17] <@Grephix> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Case_sensitivity_of_page_names
# [12:17] <@chrismills> so generally the site admins try to move all normal pages to lower case if we find upper case ones, checking first of course there isn't anything valuable at the lower case version already ;-)
# [12:17] <@chrismills> So let me know if you find any that need to be moved.
# [12:17] <Boldfish> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/url_normalization
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# [12:17] <@tobie> chrismills: minimal bot setup.
# [12:17] <@chrismills> tobie you rock dude.
# [12:17] <@tobie> it's running off of my machine atm
# [12:17] <@chrismills> is there a help command to find out the commands it has available?
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# [12:18] <lampe2> good morning
# [12:18] <@tobie> I'll need to add this.
# [12:18] <sandroid> tobie: what's the bot running ?
# [12:18] <@chrismills> lampe2: hi there!
# [12:18] <lampe2> hez hez chrismills
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# [12:18] <@tobie> sandroid: it's https://github.com/gf3/jerk
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# [12:19] <@Grephix> tobie; you working on that? Does that mean I should stop working on a PHP based eggdrop bot which runs on my box?
# [12:19] <@tobie> chrismills: currently it does two things: respond to "wpd ...." with a search url.
# [12:19] <@Grephix> dedicated box that is*
# [12:19] <@tobie> and points to the FAQ when faq is mentioned.
# [12:19] <wpdbot> FAQ can be found here: http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/Site_FAQ
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# [12:20] <@chrismills> nice
# [12:20] <@tobie> I'll open source it and host it on github
# [12:20] <vldcnst> Grephix: PHP for IRC? really.
# [12:20] <@Grephix> vldcnst: yea, PHP for IRC. Eggdrop mate
# [12:20] <@tobie> liek that it's easy to add new commands
# [12:20] <@tobie> just make pull request.
# [12:20] <desbenoit> hello wpdbot :)
# [12:20] <sandroid> oh nice it's a nodejs bot :)
# [12:20] <@Grephix> Which's been a proven IRC bot for years
# [12:21] <vldcnst> Grephix: how are you handling cases where you'd need multiple threads?
# [12:21] <@Sandkorn> werent classic eggdrops using TCL scripts?
# [12:21] <@Grephix> Sandkorn: true, not the fork I'm running though
# [12:21] <@Grephix> Also vldcnst: multiple threads, for a bot?
# [12:22] <vldcnst> Grephix: ugh, depending on what the bot can do, yes.
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# [12:24] <vldcnst> Grephix: eg: a user causes the bot to try and open some URL/do a DNS request - how are you handling everything else while that's going?
# [12:24] <@Grephix> I do not expect it to interpret every single line posted and create a full criminal profile of users based on their comments ;-)
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# [12:25] <@Grephix> You have a valid point there mate, however that's not one of the things on my whish lists
# [12:25] <vldcnst> Grephix: I'm just sayin', PHP may not be the proper language to use for such a project
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# [12:26] <lampe2> iam on the site and on this articel http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/concepts/mobile_web . the title is there twice. is this okay so ?
# [12:26] <@Grephix> Depending on the use and functionality of the bot: i can not agree more, there was however a quick wish for easy moderation (counter spam measures and such) of the channel and I remembered having a bot laying around somewhere which could fit this easy task.
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# [12:27] <vldcnst> Grephix: oh well, PHP is indeed awesome. actually, I know someone who wrote an IRCd in PHP
# [12:28] <vldcnst> again, same limiting factors, but that person decided to go nuts and coded an entire "fork child" class.
# [12:28] <sandroid> lol
# [12:28] <vldcnst> which wasn't more than just exec("php ... &"); (pseudo code)
# [12:29] <@Grephix> hehe
# [12:29] <Garbee> Grephix, Supybot is a nice bot running on Python.
# [12:29] <Garbee> It is one I have been messing with that we could use.
# [12:29] <vldcnst> Garbee: is that a fork on phenny?
# [12:30] <@Grephix> vldcnst: my thoughts exactly
# [12:30] <Garbee> http://sourceforge.net/projects/supybot/ ...No fork that I know of.
# [12:30] <@Grephix> I remember some sort of relationship between the two
# [12:31] <vldcnst> looking at the code, it doesn't seem so
# [12:31] <Garbee> I'm not sure of the exact history behind it. Another room I lurk in used it for a time, then the maintainer of it went away so it dropped out as well.
# [12:31] <sandroid> just make sure not to introduce too many bots to the channel :) , ends up being more confusing than anything else :)
# [12:32] <sandroid> and also jerk seems a good choice for a channel dedicated to the web platform :D
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# [12:32] <Garbee> I like Supybot because instead of just mentioning the FAQ we would need to give it a command like @@FAQ (or whatever we want for @@) and then it would call whatever is programmed for that command.
# [12:33] <Garbee> I think we all need to agree though, no RSS BS. We don't need feeds being spat out into the chatroom adding clutter to the conversation.
# [12:33] * sandroid agrees
# [12:33] * ChanServ sets mode: -o _WiZZarD
# [12:34] <_WiZZarD> hm
# [12:34] <_WiZZarD> lol
# [12:34] <@Grephix> :>
# [12:34] <@chrismills> not sure why that happened...
# [12:34] <_WiZZarD> i do
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# [12:34] <_WiZZarD> just registered this nick ;)
# [12:34] * Grephix sets mode: +o _WiZZarD
# [12:35] <@chrismills> ah yes
# [12:35] <@_WiZZarD> btw, page looks good chrismills
# [12:35] <@chrismills> cool
# [12:35] <sandroid> oh, since jerk is running via js .. it could have a command to interpret some js code that code be sent to a command and spit the result back out in the channel :D
# [12:35] <@_WiZZarD> corrected one typo though ;)
# [12:35] <@chrismills> nic eone
# [12:35] <sandroid> ugh, nice english there , sorry :P
# [12:36] <vldcnst> sandroid: like require('child_process').spawn(process.argv.shift(),process.argv);
# [12:36] <sandroid> lol
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# [12:36] <sandroid> that could be fun :D
# [12:37] <@tobie> sandroid: it could, except that's not the purpose of this channel
# [12:38] <sandroid> hehe that's ok :) just saying :P
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# [12:51] <@tobie> sandroid: https://github.com/gf3/protobot does that. You can still find it running places, afaik.
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# [12:59] <@Sandkorn> hm.. "What you get" .. love and appreciation ..
# [12:59] * @Sandkorn sits down & waits in promising expectation..
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# [13:00] <@Grephix> lol Sandkorn
# [13:00] <@Sandkorn> :-}
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# [13:09] <robertpitt_> is let "exactly" the same as var?
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# [13:17] <@Sandkorn> let allows you to declare variables, limiting its scope to the block, statement, or expression on which it is used. This is unlike the var keyword, which defines a variable globally, or locally to an entire function regardless of block scope.
# [13:17] <@Sandkorn> MDN > https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/JavaScript/Reference/Statements/let
# [13:17] <@Sandkorn> if thats the let you mean (?)
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# [13:21] <robertpitt_> ok so let includes scopes of for loops for example.
# [13:21] <robertpitt_> got it
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# [13:24] <robertpitt_> Anyone want to take a look at this and help me organize how the page should be layed out ?
# [13:24] <robertpitt_> http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/concepts/programming/javascript/future
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# [13:25] <iamaterran> Good afternoon
# [13:26] <iamaterran> what linux distro shall I use?
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# [13:27] <@Sandkorn> whichever you like! :-)
# [13:27] <@chrismills> robertpitt_ looks ok so far to me. I can help you structure it a bit more when there is more there. I think that for a guide to future JS, a laundry list of ES6 syntax, features etc is fine.
# [13:27] <@chrismills> it doesn't necessarily need to be a structured tutorial type affair, if it is a broad overview
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# [13:29] <robertpitt_> yea. I will keep going over the next few days and maybe we can restructure it later. I am not happy with the current structure but not got a better idea yet
# [13:30] <@chrismills> i think it is ok for now. Just get it written down as a priority.
# [13:30] <@chrismills> much better to get the writing done rather than worrying about the exact structure.
# [13:32] <Garbee> chrismills, If you want some more volunteer mods I am available.
# [13:32] <@chrismills> Garbee - cool, thanks! Can you drop me your e-mail in a private message, and I'll get you sorted out with details
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# [13:35] <Garbee> Although I do think Tomato is modding the forums/wiki currently too so you may want to get them added to the list of volunteers.
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# [13:36] <@chrismills> ok, cool
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# [13:37] <Garbee> Yay, no more general support in here. :) (just read the email.)
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# [13:38] <@chrismills> Garbee - yes, that line was a bit silly ;-)
# [13:38] <Garbee> Well, it has been something that we debated basically since I arrived in the room. It is good to have it finally sorted out.
# [13:39] <Garbee> I'm all for helping people, but Paul pointed it out perfectly in his email.
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# [13:44] <sdafg> hi!
# [13:44] <sdafg> Any here?
# [13:44] <Garbee> Yes.
# [13:44] <Garbee> 209 or so people.
# [13:44] <sdafg> yout site why not have docs of flash technology?
# [13:44] <sdafg> your
# [13:45] <Garbee> Flash is not a web standard.
# [13:45] <sdafg> and what web standarts?
# [13:45] <Garbee> Could you rephrase that question please? I don't understand.
# [13:46] <sdafg> ok
# [13:46] <sdafg> other question then
# [13:46] <@Sandkorn> sdafg: check http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/WPD:FAQ#Will_this_site_include_information_on_server-side_languages.2C_like_PHP.2C_Perl.2C_Ruby.2C_Python.2C_etc..3F it should answer some of your questions :-)
# [13:46] <arkhisaway> sdafg: Webplatform is dealing with W3C standards…
# [13:47] <sdafg> Why games on flash good aceleration and many FPS, and games on JavaScript/CSS/HTML low FPS?
# [13:47] <sdafg> ark
# [13:47] <sdafg> no
# [13:47] <sdafg> he very slow work
# [13:47] <sdafg> and consorcium made new organization
# [13:49] <Garbee> sdafg, It really comes down to implimentation. Adobe has had more time and is allowed to do more with their software where web standards need to be a bit more restrictive on what they do. But that is really getting outside of the scope of this chatrooms purpose I think.
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# [13:50] <sdafg> Garbee, games on JavaScript+CSS+ HTML will have good FPS?
# [13:50] <sdafg> or need use flash for games?
# [13:50] <Garbee> In the future when the standards are better yes they will get better.
# [13:50] <arkhisaway> sdafg: It probably depends on many things, like the browser you’re using, how the game is coded, etc…
# [13:51] <Garbee> You should use Flash now anyways. Web standards don't currently fully replace what Flash can do. So it really depends on the type of game and what you need.
# [13:51] <arkhisaway> but as Garbee points it out, it can only get better (if we work at it and support it)
# [13:51] <Garbee> Also once WebGL gets better support things should get much better.
# [13:51] <Garbee> I think that is one of the remaining major roadblocks.
# [13:52] <sdafg> JS games will have more FPS than flash games?
# [13:52] <Garbee> sdafg, We are people, not time travellers.
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# [13:52] <robertpitt_> anyone got some free time to take control over a doc ?
# [13:53] <robertpitt_> minification doc
# [13:54] <Garbee> Could you link please? I'm having trouble finding it.
# [13:54] <sdafg> Gabree and WebGL its language based on JS?
# [13:54] <robertpitt_> http://docs.webplatform.org/w/index.php?title=concepts/programming/javascript/minification
# [13:54] <Garbee> sdafg, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Webgl --All I can tell you.
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# [13:54] <robertpitt_> THe concept of minification in Javascript
# [13:55] <Garbee> Why do we need to take control?
# [13:55] <Garbee> There is nothing.
# [13:55] <robertpitt_> I was just wondering if anyone wanted to start the doc
# [13:55] <dontcallmeDOM> also, minification doesn't seem JavaScript-specific, is it?
# [13:55] <Garbee> No, minification should be more generic.
# [13:55] <robertpitt_> see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minification_(programming)
# [13:55] <robertpitt_> seems like it's a term mainly used for Javascript
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# [13:56] <Garbee> Nah, CSS too, and I minify my HTML as well.
# [13:56] <arkhisaway> It’s used in CSS as well
# [13:56] <sdafg> if i will make game on JS, then i must learn JS, HTML, CSS. WebGL, 4 language. And if i will make game on Flash, then only one language Flash.
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# [13:56] <robertpitt_> Ok let me rephrase, it's a term that is mainly related to frontend development
# [13:56] <Garbee> sdafg, That is one of the trade-offs.
# [13:57] <arkhisaway> sdafg: I’m sure you have frameworks to abstract part of the work, as the Flash editor does.
# [13:57] <Garbee> Still how is JS minfication theory different from CSS/HTML?
# [13:57] <sdafg> Gabree, trade-offs? i need learn 4 language + game will have low FPS
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# [13:57] <Lifesnoozer> sdafg: WebGL isn't a language, it's an API for JavaScript, that that's -1
# [13:57] <Garbee> sdafg, There is much more to it than that.
# [13:58] <robertpitt_> Firstly with CSS and HTML are not obfuscated, with minifcation there is usually the aspect of variable renaming, function abstraction atc.
# [13:58] <Lifesnoozer> You don't HAVE to learn CSS to make a game in JS, you can add all styles to the DOM elements with JS
# [13:58] <Lifesnoozer> And lastly, you COULD add all the elements with JS and thus not even have to learn HTML
# [13:58] <Garbee> Perhaps we should make one overall minification page and if a langauge has things specific to it then we should have subpages.
# [13:58] <dontcallmeDOM> I guess I would put minification under "Network usage optimization", possibly under the existing "Performance" chapter of the concepts
# [13:59] <dontcallmeDOM> true, re specificities of JavaScript on minification
# [13:59] <robertpitt_> Performance seems viable
# [13:59] <Garbee> Yea, it is performance all around compared to just network.
# [14:00] <dontcallmeDOM> well, I guess it also improves memory consumption, but it doesn't make the code run faster
# [14:00] <robertpitt_> I use Google Closure which renames variables, remove duplicate code execution paths, reduce repetitive code as well as un-used code
# [14:01] <robertpitt_> Garbee, see closure compiler
# [14:01] <robertpitt_> there are compiling / minification processors that actually increase performance both on the network and client layer
# [14:01] <Garbee> Yea, so obviously JS has some special properties of minification. But there are still more general aspects.
# [14:02] <sdafg> Please make a new language, an open alternative to flash. With the ability to compile. Language should be very good friends with HTML5, JS (and WebGL) and CSS.
# [14:02] <Garbee> sdafg, You are talking to the wrong room.
# [14:02] <arkhisaway> Wouldn’t there be a way to collaborate with Wikipedia for some content?
# [14:02] <arkhisaway> So that updates are profitable for both?
# [14:02] <@chrismills> isn't haXe basically that?
# [14:02] <Garbee> This is for conversation about webplatform.org which does not deal with the standard creation process.
# [14:03] <sdafg> why?
# [14:03] <@Grephix> Because #webplatform, sdafg
# [14:03] <sdafg> webplatform its?
# [14:03] <sdafg> consorcium?
# [14:03] <Garbee> sdafg, It is just out of the perview of the site.
# [14:03] <@Grephix> http://webplatform.org
# [14:03] <robertpitt_> Garbee, we may need to debate this out with some others, I agree with your points and not sure where best to position the content
# [14:03] <Garbee> We are for documenting the standards, not creating them.
# [14:04] <Garbee> Robert, I think it is pretty much solved with one overall page for the *general* aspects/theory of minification but having sub-pages for things specific to a certain language.
# [14:04] <dontcallmeDOM> +1
# [14:04] <Garbee> The only problem is exact placement of the pages.
# [14:04] <sdafg> your sponsors can make it
# [14:04] <robertpitt_> Garbee, ok
# [14:04] <Garbee> sdafg, Still, not the place.
# [14:04] <Garbee> I really wish I had a better layout view of the current page structure.
# [14:04] <sdafg> :(
# [14:04] <sdafg> on forum maybe?
# [14:04] * Grephix sets mode: +b sdafg!*@*
# [14:04] * sdafg was kicked by Grephix (You send 4 messages within 5 seconds, slow down! 1 minute ban.)
# [14:05] <@Grephix> oh wauw, that isn't right.
# [14:05] <Garbee> grephix, What the hell?
# [14:05] <@chrismills> ;-)
# [14:05] * Grephix sets mode: -b sdafg!*@*
# [14:05] <@Grephix> Auto script went loose, sorry
# [14:05] <Garbee> I will break that all the time.
# [14:05] <@ppk_> Grephix: Yes?
# [14:05] <@Grephix> hehe
# [14:05] * Joins: sdafg (5c65448c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.92.101.68.140)
# [14:05] <sdafg> lol
# [14:05] <Garbee> sdafg, Sorry about that.
# [14:05] <sdafg> [You send 4 messages within 5 seconds, slow down! 1 minute ban.]
# [14:05] * Grephix sets mode: +b sdafg!*@*
# [14:05] * sdafg was kicked by Grephix (You send 4 messages within 5 seconds, slow down! 1 minute ban.)
# [14:05] <kallepersson> lol!
# [14:05] <@Grephix> damn u
# [14:05] <@Grephix> disabled.
# [14:05] <@chrismills> sdafg sorry about that
# [14:05] * Grephix sets mode: -b sdafg!*@*
# [14:05] <kallepersson> "Sorry"
# [14:05] * Grephix sets mode: -b sdafg!*@*
# [14:05] <kallepersson> )
# [14:05] * Joins: sdafg (5c65448c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.92.101.68.140)
# [14:06] <kallepersson> ;)
# [14:06] <@Grephix> sdafg: give me the time to disable the script first, lol :D
# [14:06] <sdafg> stop it plz
# [14:06] <@Grephix> Sorry about that mate
# [14:06] <robertpitt_> haha
# [14:06] <sdafg> i said only 2 mesages
# [14:06] <@Grephix> True that
# [14:06] <Garbee> Can we call that an "alpha" bug?
# [14:06] <arkhisaway> sdafg: PLease be quite for a few seconds. :)
# [14:06] <@chrismills> yes ;-)
# [14:06] <Garbee> sdafg, Yea, script went rouge. Sorry about it.
# [14:06] <arkhisaway> Grephix is fixing the problem.
# [14:06] <@Grephix> Garbee: definitely
# [14:06] * Grephix sets mode: -b sdafg!*@*
# [14:06] <sdafg> np
# [14:07] * Quits: _wpdbot (~wpdbot@105-84.104-92.cust.bluewin.ch) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [14:07] <Garbee> Grephix, The ban is gone now. Please don't remove the one still there though.
# [14:07] <robertpitt_> d
# [14:07] <robertpitt_> d
# [14:07] <robertpitt_> d
# [14:07] <robertpitt_> d
# [14:07] <robertpitt_> d
# [14:07] <robertpitt_> d
# [14:07] <robertpitt_> d
# [14:07] <@Grephix> I won't, I know it's gone
# [14:07] <robertpitt_> d
# [14:07] <robertpitt_> yay
# [14:07] <@Grephix> That however was just a remainder of the timer that was automatically set ;-)
# [14:07] <Garbee> robert, We don't need volunteer testers.
# [14:07] <sdafg> ok me go on forum?
# [14:07] <@Grephix> sdafg: for your questions?
# [14:07] <Garbee> sdafg, No. This community is not currently the place for that type of work.
# [14:07] <sdafg> new language
# [14:08] <Garbee> Grephix, No, to try and get a new standard made for online games.
# [14:08] <sdafg> flash and unity alternative
# [14:08] <@Grephix> Oh right
# [14:08] * Parts: kallepersson (~kallepers@83.223.19.160)
# [14:08] <@Grephix> I'm not sure where you can adress your question sdafg, you might get a discussion going in #web ?
# [14:08] <@chrismills> sdafg: it would be better to find some kind of forum or contact mechanism that deals with w3c standards process, new standard suggestions, that kind of thing
# [14:08] <@Grephix> That channel covers a wider subject
# [14:08] <sdafg> where i can sent mesage and all your sponsors can will see my message plz?
# [14:09] <dontcallmeDOM> sdafg, the W3C Games Community Group might be a good starting point for your questions http://www.w3.org/community/games/
# [14:10] <dontcallmeDOM> although I doubt many people would be interested in building a new language (that being said, there are frameworks out there that help harmonizing Web development)
# [14:10] <Garbee> Yea, JS/WebGL is the way they are going.
# [14:10] * Joins: swain (~anonymous@ip-81-210-223-129.unitymediagroup.de)
# [14:10] <@tobie> +canvas
# [14:12] <sdafg> Why u all talk about W3C? U know about WHATWG? W3C develop xml, they not developing HTML5. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WHATWG
# [14:12] <dontcallmeDOM> sdafg, WHATWG doesn't develop HTML5, they develop "HTML Living Standard"; W3C develops HTML5
# [14:12] <arkhisaway> sdafg: People in this chan are likely to know about both W3C and WHATWG. :)
# [14:12] <dontcallmeDOM> see https://www.w3.org/html/
# [14:13] <sdafg> u read wikipedia my link?
# [14:14] * Quits: lar_zzz (~lar_zzz@business-088-079-143-185.static.arcor-ip.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [14:14] <sdafg> The reason for creating such a community is the lack of interest in HTML and apparent disregard for the real needs of the users of the W3C, which for a long time refused to HTML in favor of XML.
# [14:14] <sdafg> autotranslate rus wiki
# [14:14] * Joins: Cederfjard (~christian@83.223.19.160)
# [14:15] <dontcallmeDOM> sdafg, I think that discussion remains out of scope of this channel
# [14:15] <swain> Hello everybody.
# [14:15] <sdafg> i can into
# [14:15] <sdafg> cosw it about W3C
# [14:15] <Garbee> sdafg, Yea, this is going nowhere even slower now. Point: That is out of the scope of this channel and community, you should address the proper places. ie. http://www.w3.org/community/games/ . So, this conversation should be over at this point.
# [14:16] <sdafg> http://www.whatwg.org/
# [14:16] <dontcallmeDOM> sdafg, feel free to bring your ideas or questions to the WHATWG as well (or instead)
# [14:17] * Quits: robertpitt_ (~RobertPit@host81-159-231-170.range81-159.btcentralplus.com) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [14:17] <@chrismills> sdafg a lot has happened since the XHTML thing - W3C is now supporting HTML, and has devrel activities to support the needs of debs, users, etc. You sound like you have missed the last 5 years ;-) And besides, this is all out of scope. There are other channels to talk about standards work and HTML versus XHTML. or W3C versus WHATWG. This is not it. This is for conversations about webplatform.org, the new W3C documentation site.
# [14:17] <@chrismills> s/debs/devs
# [14:18] <sdafg> chris XHTML is death today
# [14:18] <sdafg> now HTML5
# [14:18] <sdafg> born
# [14:19] <Garbee> XHTML still has some usage reasons, but overall most people don't need it.
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# [14:19] * Quits: nmudgal (~nmudgal@unaffiliated/nmudgal) (Quit: nmudgal)
# [14:19] <Garbee> http://mathiasbynens.be/notes/xhtml5
# [14:19] <@chrismills> you can still do XHTML in HTML5 - the markup style you choose is your choice
# [14:19] <sdafg> XHTML has never been claimed.
# [14:20] <sdafg> i think developers must diasble all fuctons of XHTML in new HTML5
# [14:20] * Quits: icaaq (~Adium@c-5eeaaa33-74736162.cust.telenor.se) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [14:20] <@chrismills> Anyway, this discussion is over now
# [14:21] <arkhisaway> sdafg: I invite you to join a mailing list about the topics you like in order to develop your argumentation.
# [14:21] <arkhisaway> endless chat about goods or bads of this or that technology is out of topic.
# [14:21] <@chrismills> Yup. Stop now.
# [14:22] <sdafg> I do not like when in a language a disorder.
# [14:22] <Garbee> Are there any plans to work on the look of the Table of Contents in the docs?
# [14:22] <@shepazu> Garbee: yes, I'm working on that today
# [14:22] <arkhisaway> sdafg: a list of those mailing lists is available here: http://lists.w3.org/
# [14:23] <Garbee> Cool, thanks shepazu.
# [14:23] <@chrismills> shepazu: good man! And good morning hope you are well.
# [14:23] <sdafg> w3c not develop html5 in real
# [14:23] <Garbee> sdafg, That is out of the scope of this channel.
# [14:23] <sdafg> they have no real weight
# [14:23] <sdafg> щл
# [14:23] <sdafg> ok
# [14:24] <@shepazu> mornig
# [14:24] <arkhisaway> evenig shepazu
# [14:24] <@Grephix> Hiya shepazu
# [14:24] <@shepazu> sdafg: please stop trolling, or I will kick you from the channel
# [14:24] * Quits: arnedebree (~arnedebre@secure.marviq.com) (Quit: arnedebree)
# [14:24] <sdafg> hm and where WebGL docs? http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/javascript
# [14:25] <@shepazu> arkhisaway, Grephix, moin
# [14:25] * Joins: icaaq (~Adium@c-5eeaaa33-74736162.cust.telenor.se)
# [14:25] <Garbee> http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/webgl
# [14:25] <@Grephix> http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/webgl
# [14:25] <@Grephix> Oh right
# [14:25] <@chrismills> shepazu: I was thinking if we can attach a heading property or some such thing to each page, to say what heading a page should appear under on a page when the list is generated, we could easily generate a nice structured layout
# [14:26] <@chrismills> shepazu: but I bet you're already 4 steps ahead ;-)
# [14:26] <sdafg> she you can think about me anything, no carious
# [14:26] <sdafg> thx for links
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# [14:27] <Garbee> chrismills, I'm lost. Heading to do what? Start generating the ToC?
# [14:27] <sdafg> i not see link on wiki on genereal site
# [14:28] <Garbee> sdafg, You need to search for it right now. The site is alpha and things including navigation is still being worked on.
# [14:28] <Garbee> is should be are^^
# [14:28] <sdafg> and i not see links on WebGL in docs and in docs JS
# [14:28] <Garbee> the second one anyways.
# [14:28] <arkhisaway> sdafg: What are you looking for exactly?
# [14:28] <Garbee> arkhisaway, Just complaining about the current navigation.
# [14:28] * arkhisaway is now known as arkhi
# [14:28] <arkhi> I’m not away, doh. :)
# [14:29] * Quits: schalkneethling (~espressiv@196-215-37-177.dynamic.isadsl.co.za) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
# [14:29] <@chrismills> Garbee: working out a better way to auto generate TOCs for the articles.
# [14:29] * Parts: sowingsadness (~swsdss@85.26.168.122)
# [14:29] <Garbee> chrismills, It is really up to the content creators to put the proper levels in place. It is auto-generated by those.
# [14:29] * Quits: elishowk (~elishowk@194.254.61.161) (Quit: leaving)
# [14:30] <@chrismills> Garbee currently that big ugly list you see at the bottom of some pages, e.g. http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/html is what you get
# [14:30] <Garbee> That is how MediaWiki works by default, not sure if you guys changed it though.
# [14:30] * Quits: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [14:31] <Garbee> The categories section at the bottom?
# [14:31] <@chrismills> when you use, for example
# [14:31] <@chrismills> {{Special:PrefixIndex/html/}}
# [14:31] <@chrismills> yup
# [14:31] <sdafg> Articles (docs, tutorials) can do make registered person?
# [14:31] <Garbee> I don't see a major problem with that.
# [14:31] * Joins: arnedebree (~arnedebre@secure.marviq.com)
# [14:31] <sdafg> any reg person?
# [14:31] <Garbee> sdafg, You need to register in order to edit, but you can view for free.
# [14:31] <@shepazu> chrismills: this is one of the things we should get for free from using Semantic MediaWiki and topics/categories
# [14:31] <dontcallmeDOM> and yes, any registered person can edit
# [14:31] <Garbee> Well, view w/o an account. free is everything.
# [14:32] <@chrismills> shepazu: uh huh
# [14:32] * Parts: sandroid (~sandroid@replicant.ch)
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# [14:33] <Garbee> Although the "Index of HTML topics" needs to be worked on.
# [14:34] <Richard_Ainz__> hmm, indeed
# [14:34] * Quits: sandroid (~sandroid@replicant.ch) (Client Quit)
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# [14:34] <sdafg> On site will be small tutorialselves of languages?
# [14:34] <@_WiZZarD> chrismills: nonconsistent naming of pages, you want that here, or in bugzilla?
# [14:35] <@chrismills> bugzilla, please ;-)
# [14:35] <arkhi> sdafg: There should be, yes.
# [14:35] <Richard_Ainz__> everything to bugzilla
# [14:35] <Richard_Ainz__> jut like a support ticket system
# [14:35] * @_WiZZarD shoves his lunch to bugzilla
# [14:35] <sdafg> ok thx
# [14:35] <arkhi> sdafg: The whole website is in alpha stage for now, so as you can see by the discussion here, a lot still needs to be done. :)
# [14:35] <sdafg> maybe i add about HTML
# [14:36] <sdafg> "HTML5 in one day"
# [14:36] <Richard_Ainz__> in one day?
# [14:36] <Garbee> How do you organize that many links though? An accordion could work but then for attributes you get one massive dropdown anyways. And you can't really do alphabetical since some may not know what they are looking for exactly.
# [14:36] <Richard_Ainz__> I need to read that
# [14:37] <sdafg> yes
# [14:37] <@chrismills> Garbee it is a challenge
# [14:37] <arkhi> Most of the work for now is to clean everything, because all the content comes from different resources like Mozilla Developer Network, Microsoft, Opera, etc.
# [14:37] <sdafg> or 10 hours maybe
# [14:37] <Richard_Ainz__> guys tomorrow i will excel in 5
# [14:37] <Richard_Ainz__> hehe
# [14:37] <@chrismills> ;-)
# [14:37] * Grephix is now known as Grephix`dev
# [14:37] <Garbee> chrismills, I'm going to work on this outline for dev tools a bit, then I will play around with possible ways of dealing with it and see if I can't find a resonable solution to be worked on.
# [14:37] <@chrismills> cool, thanks.
# [14:37] <arkhi> Garbee: datalist? :)
# [14:37] * Richard_Ainz__ is now known as richardainz
# [14:38] <arkhi> datalist with select as fallback
# [14:38] <Garbee> arkhi, uh... Let me get back to you?
# [14:38] <arkhi> That is still one huge list.
# [14:38] <arkhi> and a form instead of links…
# [14:38] * richardainz is now known as richardainz|work
# [14:38] <Garbee> An accordion is nice to hide it, but then you do attributes and you get one hell of a list.
# [14:39] <Garbee> I want to handle it right so you don't get overloaded.
# [14:39] <richardainz|work> how about attributes as a readmore link on another page?
# [14:40] <Garbee> I don't think another page would really solve the problem. Just delay it one page.
# [14:40] <richardainz|work> subaccordeons?
# [14:40] <sdafg> I'm here sometimes see a horizontal line. What is this?
# [14:40] <Garbee> Problem with that is organizing them. What if someone doesn't know what they are looking for?
# [14:41] <Garbee> sdafg, Heading breakers. Just prominent content sections.
# [14:41] <richardainz|work> well, you cant realy prdict that, that would be for the search engine
# [14:41] <@_WiZZarD> Oh, btw. What shall I do with feature requests / bugs in Q&A. Throw them to the bugzilla as well?
# [14:41] <Garbee> Well, that is what most of them should be.
# [14:41] <richardainz|work> bugzilla
# [14:41] <sdafg> thx
# [14:41] <Garbee> _WiZZarD, Yea, at this point just ignore the bug part of bugzilla.
# [14:42] <sdafg> and ne more question
# [14:42] * @_WiZZarD was allready thinking of calling it 'Zilla' instead ;)
# [14:43] * @_WiZZarD adds it to his todo list
# [14:43] <Garbee> sdafg, No need to announce questions or ask to ask, just put it out.
# [14:43] <sdafg> U know here many different Web operation sistems in internet, they made on Java language. Can i make OS on JavaScript+HTML5+CSS?
# [14:43] <@_WiZZarD> good for later tonight when i get home
# [14:44] <dontcallmeDOM> sdafg, see Tizen or Firefox OS
# [14:44] <richardainz|work> sdafg avoid java if you can
# [14:44] <sdafg> dont no u not undestand me
# [14:44] <Garbee> sdafg, You *could* possibly, but it would not have near as many functions. Java has much more access to a host OSes resources than JS does.
# [14:45] <Garbee> I get it, and the basic answer is too much work to be worthwhile for not enough functionality.
# [14:45] <sdafg> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EyeOS
# [14:47] * Quits: icaaq (~Adium@c-5eeaaa33-74736162.cust.telenor.se) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [14:47] <sdafg> InternetOS can work just in your browser
# [14:47] <sdafg> i cant make it in JS ? :(
# [14:47] * Joins: icaaq (~Adium@94.234.170.51)
# [14:47] <sdafg> on JS
# [14:47] <richardainz|work> that would be a lot of JS, no?
# [14:48] <Garbee> sdafg, This is once again getting out of the scope of this chatroom.
# [14:48] <Garbee> Hop into #javascript or ##javascript to go into more detail about that.
# [14:48] <sdafg> oh please maybe any know this
# [14:48] * Joins: schalkneethling (~espressiv@196-210-248-177.dynamic.isadsl.co.za)
# [14:49] <Garbee> sdafg, Unless it is specifically about webplatform.org, it is out of the scope of this chatroom. Please find an appropriate room to ask other questions in.
# [14:49] <sdafg> Garbee its one channel?
# [14:49] <Garbee> What is?
# [14:50] <arkhi> chrismills: got your email and have no other feedback than “well done” and “thanks” so far. :)
# [14:50] <@chrismills> arkhi: np ;-)
# [14:50] * Parts: philipvonbargen (~Adium@194.127.8.150)
# [14:51] * Quits: arnedebree (~arnedebre@secure.marviq.com) (Quit: arnedebree)
# [14:52] <sdafg> Gabree no there are no humans
# [14:52] <sdafg> on JS channel
# [14:52] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@cpe-70-112-101-224.austin.res.rr.com)
# [14:52] <arkhi> sdafg: Please type "/join ##javascript" to join the appropriate chan to discuss about your topic.
# [14:52] <arkhi> The questions you’re asking here about JS or OS are not relevant and are more likely to disturb conversations.
# [14:52] <Garbee> sdafg, That is not our problem.
# [14:52] <arkhi> Ha… You did. :)
# [14:52] <@chrismills> miketaylr - 'sup dude!
# [14:52] <arkhi> The questions you’re asking … disturb conversations HERE.
# [14:53] <arkhi> Elsehow, they might make more sense somewhere else. :)
# [14:53] <arkhi> You will probably find a better support there as well.
# [14:53] <Garbee> Lets just end it and if they start going off-topic like that again kick them.
# [14:53] <miketaylr> heya chrismills
# [14:53] <miketaylr> :)
# [14:54] <@chrismills> Garbee: agreed
# [14:55] * @_WiZZarD can feel his kicking finger tickle
# [14:56] * Joins: arnedebree (~arnedebre@secure.marviq.com)
# [14:56] <arkhi> I don’t want to see this happening, so I leave now.
# [14:56] <arkhi> ::)
# [14:56] <arkhi> Gotta go…
# [14:56] <@_WiZZarD> whehe
# [14:56] <@Grephix`dev> cya arkhi mate
# [14:56] * @_WiZZarD is very gentle
# [14:56] <arkhi> hqve fun
# [14:56] <@_WiZZarD> cya arkhi
# [14:56] <arkhi> damn azerty
# [14:56] <arkhi> have fun
# [14:56] * Parts: arkhi (~fabien@222.44.41.33)
# [14:56] <@chrismills> bye!
# [14:57] * Joins: zhdanov (~zhdanov@85.94.32.98)
# [14:58] * Parts: zhdanov (~zhdanov@85.94.32.98)
# [14:58] <Garbee> Do we get a copy of outgoing messages in the mailing list? (I have little mailing list experience, not sure if I sent it properly.)
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# [15:02] <sdafg> thx for answers!
# [15:02] <sdafg> bb
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# [15:03] <Garbee> ugh, apparently not. Oh well, hopefully that one question is all I needed to answer for it to be sent, otherwise my brain is going to flip-out on this mailing list setup.
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# [15:15] <@_WiZZarD> lol
# [15:16] <Garbee> Could we get a link to the FAQ put on the frontpage of the docs? Or perhaps even somewhere on the homepage for now while everything is still early in development?
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# [15:20] <@chrismills> Garbee ok
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# [15:20] <Garbee> Thanks, I just keep seeing people ask about server-side stuff and CMSes asking if we are going to add them. I'm hoping by making the FAQ more apparent people will read it before asking.
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# [15:22] <hooloovoo> How's stuff coming along?
# [15:22] <Garbee> hooloovoo, Stuff is moving that is for sure.
# [15:23] <hooloovoo> Sweet! I hope i find time to work on some articles soon.
# [15:24] <Garbee> Awesome. There is plenty to be done in there.
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# [15:25] <@chrismills> hooloovoo: nice! Please let me know if you have any questions or want any help with article writing
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# [15:26] <Garbee> chrismills, I actually have a good question for ya... Is there currently a page that documents how new pages should be structured?
# [15:26] <Garbee> Like explaining to people how to use the headings to organize pages and how people should think to organize their content.
# [15:26] <hooloovoo> chrismills: I'll prolly drop a article here and ask if i'm doing it right when i get started again. I started on the Javascript date object before so i'll prolly continue with that later.
# [15:26] <@chrismills> hooloovoo: nice
# [15:26] <Garbee> I think one of those could be helpful if there isn't one already.
# [15:27] <@chrismills> Garbee: No, there isn't I'm planning on writing a guide to writing tutorials, and a guide to writing references
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# [15:27] <@chrismills> IT is kind of said in the getting started guide, but not really
# [15:27] <Garbee> Ah, ok. At least they are thought of then.
# [15:27] <@chrismills> probably not said in enough detail anyway...
# [15:28] <Garbee> Yea. I am just thinking perhaps a page to explain structure and even perhaps give a base outline that pages should use.
# [15:28] <Garbee> aww... I had the perfect example but the other wiki I managed has been taken offline now. :/
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# [15:29] <hooloovoo> Has the site dropped users or something?
# [15:29] <hooloovoo> Oh wait, got it working now... =P
# [15:30] <@chrismills> ;-)
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# [15:44] <@chrismills> link to FAQ added to http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/Main_Page
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# [15:45] <Garbee> Perfect. Thanks Chris.
# [15:45] * @Sandkorn cheers
# [15:45] <@_WiZZarD> <Garbee> Yea. I am just thinking perhaps a page to explain structure and even perhaps give a base outline that pages should use. < second that
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# [15:46] <Nick_Zaccardi> Good morning WP
# [15:46] <Garbee> _WiZZarD, Getting one I made for Dokuwiki and will convert into Mediawiki (not sure much change is needed) and edit to what I think we need as far as content filler (outline) and then go from there finalizing it.
# [15:46] <@_WiZZarD> kewl
# [15:46] <Garbee> I mainly need to wait for the admin of the other site to add the DNS record and get that resolved. :/
# [15:46] <@_WiZZarD> other than that, just keep watching new pages to be "correctly formatted"
# [15:46] <Garbee> But, it is possible for me to get it so I will since that is already a pretty nice base and outline.
# [15:47] <Garbee> Yea, I'm not even watching new pages overall right now. I'm planning them ;). But having an outline for pages will have a super impact on speed of adding them and keeping them somewhat regular.
# [15:48] <Garbee> I'm still trying to figure out the proper setup for certain things in the dev tools stuff I'm planning. I think I'm going to install mediawiki locally and do actual testing here to see how things will act.
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# [15:56] <NotTomato> Good morning.
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# [15:56] <Garbee> Mornin;
# [15:57] <@Sandkorn> i'll call it an early day.. later folks :)
# [15:57] <@Grephix`dev> Cya Sandkorn
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# [15:57] <@Grephix`dev> [15:38:38] <@chrismills> link to FAQ added to http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/Main_Page
# [15:58] <@Grephix`dev> It was already only 3 centimeters below the added 'FAQ' link ;-)
# [15:58] <@Grephix`dev> 'Join our forums'
# [16:01] <WesleyL> in the menu, it says "Q&A" on every page, except for when you're actually on that page the label says "Forums"
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# [16:02] <Garbee> WesleyL, Yes, Q&A is replacing Forums as the link. It is taking time to get around to all the other pages.
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# [16:03] <Garbee> Chat actually has Q&A as well.
# [16:03] <WesleyL> yeah, the only one I see forums on is the actualy Q&A page itsself
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# [16:04] <Garbee> It is just taking time to aggregate. The setup is kinda weird especially with all the caching going on.
# [16:04] <Garbee> Eventually things will get faster though.
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# [16:05] <NotTomato> garbee, uguu. ;;
# [16:05] <NotTomato> Has anyone seen Waldir?
# [16:05] <Garbee> The ; was supposed to be a '.
# [16:06] <Garbee> I thought that would be obvious and putting '* didn't make any real sense.
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# [16:06] <NotTomato> Should I add myself to the list of volunteer moderators?
# [16:07] <@chrismills> NotTomato: hey! Please do ;-)
# [16:07] <@chrismills> you have been highly recommended a couple of times today
# [16:07] <@Grephix`dev> In that case
# [16:07] <Garbee> Shouldn't that section be protected so random users can't add themselves?
# [16:07] * Grephix`dev sets mode: +o NotTomato
# [16:07] <@Grephix`dev> That would make more sence.
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# [16:11] <vivien_adnot> hey
# [16:11] <vivien_adnot> webplatform.org is a great idea =)
# [16:11] <@_WiZZarD> (:
# [16:12] <@Grephix`dev> Hi vivien_adnot
# [16:12] <Garbee> If it isn't a good idea then I'm in the wrong place...
# [16:13] <@_WiZZarD> same here
# [16:13] <@Grephix`dev> Hehe Garbee, full of yourself? ;-)
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# [16:14] <Garbee> Grephix`dev, ?
# [16:16] <@Grephix`dev> Garbee: only being here because it's a gread idea :>
# [16:17] <Garbee> Grephix`dev, Well, if it weren't then what would the point in hanging out and contributing be?
# [16:17] <@chrismills> Garbee protecting….
# [16:17] <@Grephix`dev> True, true
# [16:18] <Garbee> chris, Where was that supposed to go?
# [16:18] <Garbee> You just let the mind wander but mine apparently can't follow.
# [16:19] <@chrismills> Garbee: I saw you comment earlier - I've now protected the volunteer moderator page…and added NotTomato ;-)
# [16:19] <Garbee> Oh.
# [16:19] <Garbee> That protect.
# [16:20] <@chrismills> aye ;-)
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# [16:20] <Garbee> http://talk.webplatform.org/forums/index.php/1912/how-can-we-make-the-q%26a-forums-more-useful ---Wow, I was going to send an email to the list about this same thing. So instead, please chat here with your thoughts if you have the time.
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# [16:22] <@NotTomato> wah someone edited before me and i lost all my formatting, oops.
# [16:22] <@Grephix`dev> Garbee: I totally agree with your comment
# [16:23] <Garbee> I know there is more that I want to say then just that, but for right now that is enough.
# [16:23] <Garbee> There are a few more things as far as what questions should be asked vs shouldn't, but to fully elaborate I just don't have the time.
# [16:23] <@Grephix`dev> There's always more, guidelines however should be short and to the point to make sure everyone reeds them
# [16:23] <Garbee> So, I will add more later.
# [16:23] <@Grephix`dev> s/reed/read
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# [16:24] <Garbee> Yea, I think we just need to have it so when you go to submit a question it just has a line to please read asking guidelines. That would be sufficient.
# [16:24] <@Grephix`dev> Garbee: shouldn't we consider having a small div scrolling out as soon as someone clicks the 'ask a question' input box stating just that?
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# [16:24] <@Grephix`dev> Short and to-the-point guidelines reminding users of the most basis version of our policy?
# [16:24] <Garbee> Then we as a community need to get peer pressure going on what to do when answering a question.
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# [16:25] <@Grephix`dev> +1
# [16:25] <Garbee> I wouldn't want it to be something that people *need* to go through to ask.
# [16:25] <Garbee> I feel that is a bit intrusive, especially for those who ask a lot.
# [16:25] <Garbee> People should just respect the asking guidelines or have their question flagged and eventually pulled down.
# [16:25] <@Grephix`dev> One might implement the option to actually remember a user has agreed with those terms, cookiewise
# [16:26] <@Grephix`dev> true
# [16:26] <Garbee> Cookies go away after a while.
# [16:26] <Garbee> Perhaps tieing some kind of system into the user system itself so you agree once and it sticks to your user. Putting something within you user cookie to check against would suffice.
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# [16:27] <Garbee> But that is adding onto the backend user system which they are already having some issues with SSO. So that needs to wait until things calm down before even thinking about adding.
# [16:27] <@Grephix`dev> True, keeping track of a wishlist might be a good idea.
# [16:27] <@Grephix`dev> We wouldn't want good ideas to be wasted.
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# [16:27] <Garbee> Yea... The only problem is where.
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# [16:29] <@_WiZZarD> bugzilla
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# [16:29] <@_WiZZarD> create 2 categories: 1) bugs, 2) feature requests
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# [16:30] <@_WiZZarD> or actually
# [16:31] <@_WiZZarD> create a new severity, named enhancement (oslt)
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# [16:31] <@_WiZZarD> that way you can easily seperate feature requests from regular bugs
# [16:31] <Garbee> I'm down with that.
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# [16:32] <@_WiZZarD> hm
# [16:32] * @_WiZZarD checks
# [16:32] <@_WiZZarD> thats allready there
# [16:32] <@_WiZZarD> *done*
# [16:32] <@_WiZZarD> :D
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# [16:33] <Garbee> Ok, here is something I think we need to solve... Since the IRC is not for general support (Yay) should we let the Q&A be for it? I think things like this are better left in StackOverflow: http://talk.webplatform.org/forums/index.php/1562/upload-and-preview-the-xml-file-text-area-internet-explorer?show=1719#a1719
# [16:33] <eternicode> yeah, the bug tracker already has "enhancement" as the lowest severity. filed one of those yesterday.
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# [16:35] <@_WiZZarD> eternicode: good. if I have time I'll see if I can sort all open tickets under WP later tonight
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# [16:36] <@_WiZZarD> Garbee: as long as questions are about web standards or on how to correctly implement them I don't see a problem with that
# [16:36] <@_WiZZarD> this specific topic however might be a tad too in-dept for WP
# [16:36] <@NotTomato> I put up my ideas for down voting and flagging rules, really the only thing I care about because people use it incorrectly. ):
# [16:37] <Garbee> Yea, trying to figure out what things should mean, like using <section> vs <article> is fine. But this is kinda too specific in support to me.
# [16:38] <Garbee> NotTomato, Like " 3. Downvote and flag answers on crappy questions " which was suggested in the first answer?
# [16:38] <Garbee> I think that is an improper use.
# [16:38] <@NotTomato> Yeah it is.
# [16:39] <@NotTomato> That is bias opinion.
# [16:39] <@NotTomato> I always approve badly written questions, it doesn't matter if the user sucks at typing, it just matters what the information is. Lol.
# [16:40] <Garbee> Yea. My only thing is upvoting questions. I don't see where I would ever do that unless it is an idea for the site and I support it.
# [16:40] <mdel> mornin folks
# [16:40] <@NotTomato> Hi mdel.
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# [16:40] <@_WiZZarD> true, thats something that should be worked out
# [16:40] <@_WiZZarD> morning mdel
# [16:41] <@_WiZZarD> It's just rather difficult to come up with a model that everybody likes i guess ;)
# [16:41] <Garbee> Yea, just like bug reporting.
# [16:41] <Garbee> Some are upset that it requires yet another account.
# [16:42] <@_WiZZarD> boohoo .. then don't report it, but complain here so a op will do it for you
# [16:42] <Garbee> Well, some don't come into chat.
# [16:43] <Garbee> And they report via the Q&A, which they seem to actually not want to do since they know it isn't the proper place.
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# [16:43] <@_WiZZarD> I don't mind it there .. If there would be a proper way for moderators to trash those q&a items after filing a bugzilla report
# [16:43] <@_WiZZarD> or at least close it indefinite
# [16:43] <meda> Garbee, wouldn't you upvote something that has been downvoted by someone else, if you disagreed with the downvote?
# [16:43] <Garbee> I actually am all for *eventually* getting the bug tracker on-site and integrated with the SSO. But for now having it at w3 works and doesn't add complexity that we don't need.
# [16:44] <Garbee> meda, It doens't matter if I disagree with the vote but on the content. If I think it is good content I vote up, otherwise I vote down. If I just don't agree with someone elses view but I can't make a decision on the content, I leave it alone.
# [16:44] <Garbee> doesn't*
# [16:45] <@NotTomato> Garbee, is your forum account admin?
# [16:45] <Garbee> NotTomato, I don't think so.
# [16:45] <@NotTomato> When I go to sleep at night, post still get caught in the filter then left there for six hours.
# [16:46] <@NotTomato> I was hoping someone else could watch it while I sleep.
# [16:46] <@_WiZZarD> when do you sleep?
# [16:46] <@_WiZZarD> ;)
# [16:46] <Garbee> Then like this question: http://talk.webplatform.org/forums/index.php/1890/split-string-java Someone downvoting vs flagging.
# [16:46] <Garbee> Which also, we need to find a way to see *who* does a flag. That way we can find abusers and end it.
# [16:47] <Garbee> ^^Admins need to see who flags, no one else.
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# [16:47] <@NotTomato> Well I just woke up, but I usually go to bed at midnight, mountain time. You could even patrol the filter right now!!
# [16:47] <@NotTomato> Stuff gets caught in there every 10 minutes or during the day when traffic is more intense.
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# [16:47] <meda> Yes, that is what I meant. I just worded it a bit weirdly, I guess. The reason I asked is because I'm wonder how the voting system reflects the quality of the content if there's a lot of people voting, and the vote count stays "neutral"
# [16:48] <@NotTomato> _WiZZarD http://talk.webplatform.org/forums/index.php/admin/moderate
# [16:48] <eternicode> I'm +1 for going full-meta on the Q&A. I've seen it mentioned that this seems like an effort to split the SO community -- and, while I understand that's not a goal, it could be a result if we allow dev support questions. If we keep it to questions about the site and enhancement/bug/site-support requests, it also makes it clearer what up/downvoting means -- you dis/agree with an enhancement, you've not/also seen a bug,
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# [16:48] <eternicode> etc.
# [16:48] <Garbee> Also even questions about *content* (the point of the system)... but all this random actual tech support should be sent to SO.
# [16:49] <Garbee> or SE, whatever it is.
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# [16:50] <eternicode> well... there's programmers.stackexchange.com, but it seems a lot more philosophical. All the actual code support happens on SO.
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# [16:50] <@_WiZZarD> You do not have permission to perform this operation
# [16:50] <Boldfish> Is the Q&A solely for questions about the Web Platform Docs then?
# [16:50] <Garbee> Yea, let me amend my post real quick with that...
# [16:50] <@_WiZZarD> Can't help there yet ;)
# [16:51] <Garbee> Boldfish, It is soley about webplatform.org and related stuff. Not for tech support on getting your code working.
# [16:51] <@NotTomato> Darn _WiZZarD, maybe I can coax shepazu in promoting more volunteer admins today.
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# [16:51] <@NotTomato> So you can see it too
# [16:51] <@_WiZZarD> meanwhile , I'll just sit back and chill
# [16:51] <Boldfish> Then it needs to say that somewhere visible, very soon...
# [16:51] <mdel> can someone delete my answer here: http://talk.webplatform.org/forums/index.php/1890/split-string-java?state=edit-1925
# [16:51] <@_WiZZarD> see you guys getting stressed ;)
# [16:51] <mdel> twas' testing something
# [16:51] <Garbee> NotTomato, I don't think we should actually *ask* for admins. We should sit back and watch who is trying to contribute and then ask if they want to moderate.
# [16:52] <@NotTomato> If you just spammed characters, I already deleted it.
# [16:52] <Garbee> That way we don't have just random people trying to get Moderation privs. It is people we see are trying to do good work.
# [16:52] <@NotTomato> Oh you mean the whole question?
# [16:52] <mdel> NotTomato: yeah that was me
# [16:52] <@shepazu> Garbee: yeah, I'm down with that
# [16:52] <Boldfish> I'd sort of formed the impression it might be the place to ask questions about why certain web things were a particular way - e.g. to foster discussion on *why*, not how...
# [16:53] <Garbee> Boldfish, It can be. It just isn't for "How do I get X to work, here is my code."
# [16:53] <@NotTomato> Well, people who are already OPs in IRC, I guess I assumed they are trustworthy enough to watch the filter on the Q&A.
# [16:53] <@shepazu> Garbee: why isn't it for that?
# [16:53] <Boldfish> Understand that - it makes sense - there are olaces like doctype.com for that
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# [16:53] <Boldfish> BUt why couldn't it be?
# [16:54] <Boldfish> if WPD is the single source for all things web, wouldn't it help to get answers for problems there too?
# [16:54] <Garbee> shepazu, SO and SE and related things are for that kind of support. Just like the IRC is not for that kind of support we should extend it across the entire community. Otherwise we have certain areas that allow X and others that don't which makes it confusing.
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# [16:55] <mdel> yeah I think trying to dilute the purpose of the Q&A with general code questions is just going to make it a bottom-of-the-barrel StackOverflow
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# [16:55] <@shepazu> personally, I intended all these public places to allow for questions about web development… not sure why people are trying to turn them into meta-conversations on the webplatform.org site
# [16:55] <Garbee> Our goal is to document the platform and help increase everyones *understanding* of the platform. Tech support for things is best left to communities either specific to the issue or who as a a whole do that kind of support. We already don't do general support here, so that should expand everywhere.
# [16:56] <Boldfish> @shepazu - I'd prefer that approach
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# [16:56] <Boldfish> @garbee, isn't that the meta Q&A forum, which you don't yet have?
# [16:56] <Boldfish> http://blog.stackoverflow.com/2010/07/the-7-essential-meta-questions-of-every-beta/
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# [16:57] <Garbee> Boldfish, I don't quite understand.
# [16:57] <eternicode> without direction, people have been making due with the "meta" tag so far :3
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# [16:57] <eternicode> to a degree, anyway
# [16:57] <mdel> there are already tons of places to get someone to look at your code... Q&A here seems best suited for questions related to the theory and best-practices behind webdev concepts
# [16:57] <@shepazu> Garbee: who says we don't answer dev questions here?
# [16:57] <Boldfish> @mdel - that makes sense
# [16:57] <@shepazu> I don't think that's reached consensus, and as the person who set up this channel, it's not my preference
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# [16:58] <Garbee> shepazu, Apparently Paul, divya, and others have already showed signs of not wanting it to be general dev support. And you are exactly right, we don't have a consensus yet which we need to reach.
# [16:58] <Boldfish> http://talk.webplatform.org/forums/index.php/1902/what-constitutes-an-on-topic-question-here?show=1904#a1904
# [16:59] <eternicode> no consensus -> discussion :D
# [16:59] <Boldfish> maybe some answers there might help shape the forums?
# [17:00] <Boldfish> My reading of the way cmmunities form is that they shape themsleves *unless* there's a strong force to moderate them in a particular way.
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# [17:00] <@shepazu> I'm with Boldfish on this one
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# [17:00] <Boldfish> If *everyone* wants to ask dev questions *and* other people answer them, don't you then have a perfect balance of docuemtation and pragmatic advis?
# [17:01] <mdel> i cant see this being useful if general code questions are allowed
# [17:01] <@shepazu> Paul and divya have their opinions, which are certain valid, but they don't have any higher status on this project than anyone else
# [17:01] <mdel> its going to be a moderation nightmare, and we're going to get a ton of crap questions llike "how do i use array??"
# [17:02] <@shepazu> mdel: how is it useful if code questions aren't allowed?
# [17:02] <@shepazu> what do you see as the role of the Q&A in 3 months, mdel?
# [17:02] <mdel> because this is about the web as a platform, not about "how do I make website"
# [17:02] <@NotTomato> mdel, it's not too much of a nightmare.
# [17:02] <Garbee> My thinking is there are specific places to get support like that, why should we become just yet another one? Lets have people go to the specific places for their topic (like ##javascript or #html5) and lets focus on our documentation.
# [17:02] <Boldfish> YOu have to allow how do I implement "x" questions
# [17:02] <mdel> and yes, there are already very specific places for that type of support
# [17:03] <mdel> so unless this site is competing with SO, then SPECIFIC code questions should not be allowed
# [17:03] <Boldfish> You'll find that lots of the community will provide answers, it's not a moderation *problem* unless you decide their off-topic!
# [17:03] <@shepazu> sorry, but #html5 isn't much of a help channel, maybe ##javascript is...
# [17:03] <eternicode> also #webdev, #html, #css
# [17:03] <@tobie> if we want to answer dev questions on irc, then we will need another channel for people actually doing work on #webplatform
# [17:04] <Boldfish> seems to me that IRC is the meta channel and the Q&A forums *are* for how do I type questions as well...
# [17:04] <eternicode> #html was good help when I frequented it -- although that was a while back
# [17:04] <@NotTomato> The flags do a pretty good job of showing bad content, usually people will flag anything that is off-topic and someone who is a moderator doesn't even have to look for it.
# [17:04] <@NotTomato> It's not really a moderation issue because the community watches the off-topic lost like hawks.
# [17:04] <Boldfish> <@tobie> if we want to answer dev questions on irc - I wasn't proposing that...
# [17:04] <@NotTomato> post*
# [17:04] <eternicode> Boldfish, as I see it, IRC has the same barrier to entry as the bugtracker -- "yet another ID and password"
# [17:05] <@tobie> Boldfish: my bad
# [17:05] <eternicode> granted, you can come on as anonymous/Guest123456
# [17:05] <Boldfish> Also it requires a personal exposure!
# [17:05] <Garbee> Boldfish, We need to decide if it is to be allowed globally. We shouldn't splinter and let one area be for certain content yet another it is voodoo.
# [17:05] <Nick_Zaccardi> I am trying to catch up on the conversation. is that question, "Should we provide help for 'how do i do...' questions?"
# [17:05] <@shepazu> tobie, that's what #webplatform-dev was meant for… but we need to build the community a bit first before splitting it, I think
# [17:05] <Nick_Zaccardi> the question*
# [17:06] <@tobie> possibly, we also risk loosing people.
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# [17:06] <@_WiZZarD> eternicode: irc has no such barrier
# [17:06] <mdel> i really think the purpose of this project needs to be defined better, if this is where the conversation is about the Q&A
# [17:06] <eternicode> Nick_Zaccardi, basically, yes. Do we want to allow specific dev support on the Q&A, rather than meta-only
# [17:06] <@_WiZZarD> all you have to do is pick a temporary nick and use the webchat
# [17:06] <Garbee> Another issue I see is the fact that it just launched. So ofc people will jump in and ask questions and then most of us being nice people will want to answer. But, overall right now our main focus should be the content, not all this support people want to bring in.
# [17:06] <Boldfish> I'm new, but I think not answering how do I implement what I just read in the docs questions is going to kill any community involvement very quickly
# [17:06] <mdel> either the site is for the theory and best-practices, or it is like a webdevelopment SO with forums
# [17:07] <eternicode> _WiZZarD, the more I tihnk about it, the more I realize I was wrong XD
# [17:07] <@shepazu> eternicode: wrong about what?
# [17:07] <eternicode> shepazu, IRC having a similar barrier to entry to the bug tracker (yet another account)
# [17:07] <Garbee> Boldfish, If it is relating to the docs, yes it is allowed since that can help us make docs clearer.
# [17:07] <Nick_Zaccardi> This morning, I was on the #python channel and I had a question about Flash. I went to #pocoo and ask... no answer, then i went to #python and asked. The person who responded and I went to the pocco channel and worked on it.
# [17:07] <Nick_Zaccardi> Couldn't we do that?
# [17:08] <Nick_Zaccardi> Allow people to ask questions, then when we want to help, bring them to the appropriate channel>
# [17:08] <Boldfish> I was hoping for a reference resource and a clarifying community - not everyone reads a dry spec and gets it, so how do I use <aside> would be a reasonable discussion woulnd't it?
# [17:08] <mdel> yes of course
# [17:08] <@shepazu> Boldfish: I think so
# [17:08] <mdel> but not "here's my html, why is my aside not working"
# [17:08] <Nick_Zaccardi> Flash == Flask*
# [17:08] <@tobie> Are we talking about irc, here? or Q&A?
# [17:08] <Garbee> Boldfish, Yes, that would be reasonable. That is not a supers-specific thing. It leaves room for a very broad answer.
# [17:08] <Boldfish> I see that very specifics ike my site breaks in firefox, might be OT
# [17:09] <@shepazu> the wiki is meant for docs, the other channel are meant for discussion
# [17:09] <Boldfish> maybe that's the line?
# [17:09] <eternicode> tobie, Q&A, IRC is kind of a related side-topic.
# [17:09] <Boldfish> ie. no questions with links to a site specific issue...
# [17:09] <@shepazu> I think we need some sort of community meeting, not just ad hoc discussions
# [17:09] <@tobie> shepazu: in which case we need an irc channel for specific work on the wiki
# [17:10] <@NotTomato> tobie, that would be so cool.
# [17:10] <Garbee> shepazu, Yea, I think this is best in the Mailing List.
# [17:10] <@shepazu> tobie: #webplatform-dev
# [17:10] <Garbee> Fuller thoughts and more eyes than just whoever is here right now.
# [17:10] <Garbee> whomever*
# [17:10] <@NotTomato> It would be really cool if there was a #webplatform-rc where a bot just sits there and spams recent changes.
# [17:10] <eternicode> haha
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# [17:12] <mdel> link to mailing list?
# [17:12] <Garbee> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webplatform/
# [17:13] <mdel> thanks
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# [17:17] <Boldfish> Seems to me that it's easy to answer *very* specific questions with a link to a more appropriate forum and still handle non-specific implementation questions. To me that would be the strength of WPD - provide the detailed spec and discuss best practice and *then* update the docs with the consensus. The main value of PHP.net docs is in the comments for example…
# [17:17] <mdel> Boldfish: ehh.... php.net comments are both useful, and full of the worst code examples ever
# [17:17] <Boldfish> I didn't say it was *good* value :)
# [17:17] * eternicode keepps quiet about php
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# [17:22] <@shepazu> Boldfish: I like that
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# [17:24] <eternicode> "We are aiming to create an IRC bot that will pick up on common phrases and auto-generate replies" Not so sure this is a good idea -- too much potential for false positives/negatives. A simple factoid bot with a trigger should be enough, I think.
# [17:25] <NotTomato> It probably will.
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# [17:27] <@shepazu> I have to agree with eternicode here, a bit… when I'm frustrated and asking questions, and some smartass bot gives some dumb reply, it is not amusing
# [17:28] <@tobie> !faq eternicode
# [17:28] <wpdbot> eternicode: FAQ can be found here: http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/Site_FAQ.
# [17:29] <eternicode> yeah, like that ^
# [17:29] <@tobie> well, help fill it in: https://github.com/tobie/wpdbot
# [17:29] <@shepazu> tobie++
# [17:30] <@shepazu> !help
# [17:30] <wpdbot> I'm sorry, shepazu, I do not understand "help".
# [17:30] <@tobie> shepazu: that doesn't work yet
# [17:30] <@shepazu> lol
# [17:30] <@shepazu> how do I know what it does?
# [17:30] <eternicode> read the source code ;D
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# [17:31] <eternicode> tobie, does it support private messaging?
# [17:31] * @shepazu slaps eternicode with a cod
# [17:31] <@tobie> shepazu: https://github.com/tobie/wpdbot/blob/master/commands.json
# [17:31] <@tobie> eternicode: for what purpose
# [17:31] <eternicode> if I want to explore its triggers without cluttering up the channel.
# [17:32] <Boldfish> just added a comment on Q&A and it triggered this Your comment will be checked and approved shortly. - is it volume/time or content related?
# [17:32] <@tobie> think it should
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# [17:32] <@tobie> eternicode: it does
# [17:33] <eternicode> I see it does, but you still have to type the ! to trigger it. Good enough :D
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# [17:33] <@shepazu> !ontopic
# [17:33] <wpdbot> shepazu: Please keep the conversation strictly on topic. Thank you.
# [17:33] <NotTomato> Yeah shepazu!!
# [17:33] <NotTomato> What the bot said!
# [17:34] <@shepazu> wow, what a passive-aggressive bot command!
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# [17:34] <NotTomato> Hahaha.
# [17:34] <eternicode> hehe
# [17:34] <fr0zenice> good day :)
# [17:34] <NotTomato> Hi fr0zenice.
# [17:34] <Garbee> We don't need ontopic warnings.
# [17:35] <@tobie> Garbee: fork the code and remove it. :)
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# [17:35] <@tobie> I'm taking pull requests
# [17:35] <NotTomato> We do when that kitty person comes back in here and starts spamming meows.
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# [17:36] <@chrismills> glad I missed that ;-)
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# [17:37] <hooloovoo> internet is cluttered with cat people D:
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# [17:38] <kranius> js is for cats
# [17:39] <kranius> will wpf cover topics such as coffeescript/typescript etc ?
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# [17:39] <kranius> erm
# [17:40] <Garbee> tobie, I may look into it later. Kinda distracted atm.
# [17:40] <Garbee> chrismills, I can give you the log if you want.
# [17:40] <@chrismills> ta
# [17:40] <Garbee> I called it "Wack-A-Troll"
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# [17:41] <@shepazu> kranius: we do plan to have a basic intro to various script libraries, but nothing indepth
# [17:42] <@shepazu> kranius: are you interested in contributing something like that?
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# [17:44] <kranius> why not, it's all about knowing alternatives exist
# [17:44] <@Grephix`dev> Off home
# [17:44] <@Grephix`dev> bbl
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# [17:45] <@chrismills> bye now!
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# [17:50] <karlcow> tobie: done
# [17:51] <@tobie> karlcow: merged
# [17:51] <@tobie> but don't close the PR until I do, if not I have to repoen it.
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# [17:52] <karlcow> not touching it :)
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# [18:09] <mstalfoort> tobie, do u have an idea on what the bot should support, or are we free to add whatever seems suitable and send a pr?
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# [18:14] <@tobie> mstalfoort: I don't.
# [18:14] <@tobie> I guess I'll pull in the ones that seem reasonable.
# [18:14] <mstalfoort> fair enough
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# [18:27] <@tobie> !wpd FileAPI
# [18:27] <wpdbot> tobie: Here is the result of your search for "FileAPI": http://docs.webplatform.org?title=Special%3ASearch&fulltext=Search&search=FileAPI
# [18:28] <@Grephix> Hi guys
# [18:28] <fr0zenice> hi
# [18:28] <ctoveloz[BR]> hi
# [18:29] <mstalfoort> nice addition tobie
# [18:29] <@tobie> mstalfoort: !wpd html5
# [18:29] <wpdbot> mstalfoort: Here is the result of your search for "html5": http://docs.webplatform.org?title=Special%3ASearch&fulltext=Search&search=html5
# [18:32] <ctoveloz[BR]> tobie this bot could inform new topics
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# [18:36] <@tobie> ctoveloz[BR]: !pr
# [18:36] <ctoveloz[BR]> !pr
# [18:36] <wpdbot> ctoveloz[BR]: My source code is hosted on GitHub: https://github.com/tobie/wpdbot. Please fork me and send a pull request with your requested changes.
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# [18:37] <@tobie> ctoveloz[BR]: you can fix the regexp while you're at it.
# [18:37] <@tobie> :P
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# [18:44] <ctoveloz[BR]> tobie in my time making these irc bot was quite different
# [18:44] <ctoveloz[BR]> hehe
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# [18:51] <@tobie> ctoveloz[BR]: I doubt you are _that_ much older than me.
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# [18:55] <ctoveloz[BR]> I already used the msn messenger
# [18:55] <ctoveloz[BR]> hehe
# [18:56] <ctoveloz[BR]> _someone indicate me a stylized form to contact
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# [18:57] <Garbee> ctoveloz[BR], I'm so lost...
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# [19:06] <plamoni> !wpd CSS4
# [19:06] <wpdbot> plamoni: Here is the result of your search for "CSS4": http://docs.webplatform.org?title=Special%3ASearch&fulltext=Search&search=CSS4
# [19:07] <plamoni> hehe, cool.
# [19:07] <plamoni> !wpd CSS5
# [19:07] <wpdbot> plamoni: Here is the result of your search for "CSS5": http://docs.webplatform.org?title=Special%3ASearch&fulltext=Search&search=CSS5
# [19:07] <plamoni> !wpd CSS12
# [19:07] <wpdbot> plamoni: Here is the result of your search for "CSS12": http://docs.webplatform.org?title=Special%3ASearch&fulltext=Search&search=CSS12
# [19:07] <plamoni> (okay, i'm done having fun now)
# [19:07] <@tobie> shepazu: !help
# [19:07] <wpdbot> shepazu: Here's a list of all the commands I support: apple, contribute, faq, help, pr, and wpd. You can message me privately to see what each one does.
# [19:07] <plamoni> or not
# [19:07] <plamoni> !apple iphone6
# [19:07] <wpdbot> plamoni: Apple chose explicitly to not have its logo in the footer.
# [19:08] <plamoni> ...
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# [19:08] <ctoveloz[BR]> The bot could send messages by pvt
# [19:08] <eternicode> plamoni, the bot supports privmsg, btw.
# [19:08] <ctoveloz[BR]> :P
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# [19:08] <plamoni> but then i can't subjet all of you to my mindless queries!
# [19:08] <plamoni> subject*
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# [19:11] <@shepazu> tobie++
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# [19:11] <@shepazu> !apple
# [19:11] <wpdbot> shepazu: Apple chose explicitly to not have its logo in the footer.
# [19:11] <@shepazu> lol
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# [19:11] <@tobie> shepazu: a pull request someone sent over.
# [19:11] <@tobie> shepazu: !pr
# [19:11] <wpdbot> shepazu: My source code is hosted on GitHub: https://github.com/tobie/wpdbot. Please fork me and send a pull request with your requested changes.
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# [19:18] <PatrickE> I was thinking, for future use, wouldn't a quick lookup sortof searchbox be nice? like dochub.io has
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# [19:26] <@tobie> hey mattkelly
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# [19:46] * IanJ_ !faq
# [19:46] [wpdbot:#webplatform ACTION:] FAQ can be found here: http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/Site_FAQ.
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# [20:03] <TehRealGawd> hmm
# [20:03] <TehRealGawd> no1 is speaking
# [20:03] <TehRealGawd> did you guys see where Pinky Pie got another 60k USD from Google?
# [20:04] <tsinghtao> hmm whats pinkyPie
# [20:04] <TehRealGawd> some hacker that goes and finds exploits in GC
# [20:05] <TehRealGawd> apparently Google sets out 2m USD each year 60k - GC sploits 50k - some other types of sploits and 40k- windows sploits
# [20:05] <tsinghtao> well thats probably a better way for google to deal with it..
# [20:05] <tsinghtao> pay hackers to tell them there is a problem as opposed to hackers actually exploiting the problem
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# [20:06] <TehRealGawd> yeah exactly, if you spent 1 whole year just looking and finally finding 1 google chrome exploit then you'd have a minimum wage job
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# [20:09] <tsinghtao> well i am making the assumption that good hackers do it for the challenge
# [20:09] <tsinghtao> and the bonus is the getting paid part
# [20:10] <Garbee> TehRealGawd, You should take that chat into #webplatform-offtopic
# [20:10] <webnick> wasn't it #webplatform-ot?
# [20:10] <Garbee> nope, written out.
# [20:11] <Garbee> You can go to -ot if you want, it is just a party of one at this point.
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# [20:28] <mattkelly> back from vacation--glad to see this live :)
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# [20:49] <Garbee> Anyone in here signed up for the Mailing List just get a handful of messages at once?
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# [20:55] <bwoebi> Why can't I build a CSS selector like E::after:hover (when hovered over the ::after)?
# [20:58] <eternicode> bwoebi, #css is probably a better place to ask.
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# [21:00] <bwoebi> eternicode, ok.
# [21:00] <eternicode> Garbee, yeah. Their timestamps are all over today (6am to 1pm, with one from yesterday), but I know they weren't sitting there until recently.
# [21:01] <Garbee> eternicode, Alright thanks. I was having some issues too, they manually approved one of my messages and apparently the pipes got cleaned out.
# [21:02] <sklise> join #css
# [21:02] <sklise> oops
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# [21:07] <RobertPItt> .class:after *:hover
# [21:07] <RobertPItt> ?
# [21:07] <RobertPItt> .class:after > *:hover
# [21:07] <RobertPItt> maybe :/
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# [21:08] <eternicode> RobertPItt, no, they're wanting to hover pseudoelements. Which I'm not sure is possible (but if it is, it'd be :after:hover ). Anyway, #css ;D
# [21:10] <Garbee> Yea, they are looking into it over in #css.
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# [21:15] * paul_irish changes topic to 'Support and conversation about webplatform.org • FAQ: http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/WPD:FAQ • logs: http://talk.webplatform.org/chatlogs • bugs: http://goo.gl/bTTpT • /join #webplatform-site for site/content discussion'
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# [21:15] <@paul_irish> hey RobertPItt
# [21:15] <@paul_irish> you were trying to get in touch?
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# [21:18] <pdr> shepazu: can you think of a way to benchmark SVG declarative animations using javascript?
# [21:20] <@paul_irish> /join #webplatform-site for site/content discussion
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# [22:01] <@shepazu> pdr: interesting question, but I'll have to think about it… if you send an email to www-svg, I could ask the SVG WG
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# [22:25] <scottrowe> paul_irish: what is this (#webplatform) for, vs. #webplatform-site?
# [22:25] <@paul_irish> -site is discussion of the site and its content
# [22:25] <scottrowe> Yes, what is #webplatform (this) for?
# [22:25] <@paul_irish> this channel is for support and conversation around web platform-y topics
# [22:25] <@paul_irish> -ish
# [22:26] <scottrowe> huh?
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# [22:27] <Garbee> I think the best answer is we are currently working on it. Having a little debate about what exactly we should allow in the IRC and Q&A; so until we figure it out, we have -site for *just* webplatform.org related chat.
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# [22:28] <scottrowe> paul_irish: are there other "webplatform-" rooms besides "-site"?
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# [22:29] <Garbee> -offtopic
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# [22:30] <scottrowe> Garbee: "webplatform-offtopic"? Really? Why?
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# [22:31] <Garbee> scottrowe, Just for anything we feel like. It was made before -site was thought of, and still has its uses.
# [22:31] <sonotos> for topics we don't want to have in here
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# [22:31] <@tobie> mstalfoort: !help
# [22:31] <wpdbot> mstalfoort: Here's a list of all the commands I support: apple, beginner, blog, bugfiling, bugs, contribute, docs, faq, forum, help, pr, tutorials, and wpd. You can message me privately to see what each one does.
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# [22:31] <Garbee> Really it is just uncensored chat about anything.
# [22:32] <Garbee> Well, I think we may ask for nothing vulgar, but other than that... Who knows.
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# [22:32] <ctoveloz[BR]_> but here too one can not talk about anything?
# [22:32] <sonotos> Garbee: at least we could if we want hrhr
# [22:33] <Garbee> ctoveloz[BR]_, No, things talked about in this room should try to relate to the site and currently even some support until we decide what to do about that.
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# [22:34] <sonotos> ctoveloz[BR]_: well i think people have some expectaction by joining this channel, it would be not optimal if people here talk about football
# [22:34] <Garbee> We do go offtopic at times, but it is generally short spurts and not harmful in any way. Just being social.
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# [22:34] <sonotos> hm why was it removed from the topic?
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# [22:35] <Garbee> sonotos, Because of an email this morning.
# [22:35] <Garbee> Check the mailing list.
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# [22:35] <sonotos> k
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# [22:40] <michaeln> hello webplaform folks
# [22:40] <fr0zenice> hello
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# [22:42] <mstalfoort> thx tobie
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# [22:42] <@tobie> mstalfoort: :)
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# [23:36] <chris_cook> hello all, what's the process for applying to be a volunteer moderator?
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# [23:38] <mstalfoort> chris_cook, have a look here, http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/WPD:Volunteer_moderators
# [23:39] <chris_cook> mstalfoort: i read that... not sure how to go about actually volunteering though
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# [23:41] <Garbee> chris_cook, Just email the email listed on that page showing your support.
# [23:41] <eternicode> chris_cook, contact chris mills (email given on that page).
# [23:41] <mstalfoort> my guess would be to send an email to cmills or ping him when he is here
# [23:41] <chris_cook> alright, thanks guys
# [23:42] <mstalfoort> np
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# Session Close: Fri Oct 12 00:00:00 2012

The end :)