/irc-logs / freenode / #webplatform / 2012-10-13 / end

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# Session Start: Sat Oct 13 00:00:00 2012
# Session Ident: #webplatform
# [00:00] <@paul_irish> WP 7 support. /me cries
# [00:00] <Wilto> Easy-peasy. Sorta.
# [00:00] <@Garbee> paul_irish, I use WP7...
# [00:00] <Wilto> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18899 — I got one of these, too.
# [00:00] <eighty4> leaverou: I agree with that. It's sad but I do think that is a likely route. But once that have happened give it some time and it'll turn around.
# [00:00] <leaverou> eighty4: I find your optimism admirable
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# [00:01] <leaverou> eighty4: I don't see any light at the end of the tunnel. Nobody here is willing to change, they just want to change everybody else around them
# [00:01] <eighty4> leaverou: thinking it will go bankrupt isn't really being optimistic :)
# [00:01] <leaverou> eighty4: yeah, but you think it's temporary. Anyway, we're WAY off topic :)
# [00:03] <eighty4> leaverou: there's no rules for this channel so I don't know that we're so way off that you think. But sure. Just one last think. Look at Serbien, Bosnien.
# [00:03] <darcyclarke> paul_irish can you get him to interview me for the same position? :P
# [00:04] <@Garbee> paul_irish and Wilto, I just updated that bug report for WP7. Looks like stuff that can be fixed by just fixing the CSS in general since tables are broken even on desktop in some areas.
# [00:04] <@paul_irish> nice
# [00:04] <@Garbee> Tomorrow I'm making a bug-day for me.
# [00:04] <fr0zenice> eighty4: topic says "Support and conversation about webplatform.org", feel free to drop into #webplatform-offtopic !
# [00:05] <leaverou> fr0zenice: ah, cool!
# [00:05] <@Garbee> I'm going to find all the stuff I can and get reports from IRC and the Q&A about bugs and just confirm and report (and try to find solutions if possible.)
# [00:05] <@paul_irish> Garbee: you havent seen waldir since that first day, have you?
# [00:05] <@paul_irish> NotTomato: is he active on the wiki?
# [00:05] <@Garbee> paul_irish, Not that I can recall.
# [00:06] <@Garbee> Be back in a few, getting some tea.
# [00:06] <leaverou> eighty4: we can continue the discussion in #webplatform-offtopic
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# [00:08] <eighty4> fr0zenice: oh sorry. Must be my client. The #webplatform-offtopic isn't showing in topic for me.
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# [00:08] <eighty4> right… Me stops drinking
# [00:08] <fr0zenice> yeah it's actually not in there :S
# [00:09] <eighty4> I totaly missread what you wrote. I blame my extreamly poor english.
# [00:09] <fr0zenice> or the drinking perhabs? ;)
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# [00:10] <@Garbee> eighty4, We have rules.
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# [00:10] <eighty4> yeah, it's probably more that.
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# [00:11] <@Garbee> Anything not webplatform.org related, goes to #webplatform-offtopic ...Anything else is common sense and judgement calls.
# [00:11] <David_Bradbury> For something like a canvas tutorial, where would that go? I'm considering writing out a tutorial series that covers the full API. Also, are there any rules that need to be followed for giving content that you've written for your own blog or the like?
# [00:11] <@paul_irish> David_Bradbury: tbh i think we might have a pretty strong canvas tutorial.. that came over from MDN
# [00:11] <eighty4> ok, I'm sorry. It was mostly intended as a joke. But I realize irc isn't the best place for "joking" :/ Sorry for all the OT talk.
# [00:11] <@paul_irish> or was supposed to
# [00:12] <leaverou> Wilto: btw, the blog & Q&A also have their own additional CSS on top of what I sent. But, that's not minified IIRC
# [00:12] <@Garbee> David_Bradbury, It needs to be licensed under CC-BY from us. So you contribute to that license and agree it is either in that license originally *or* your own work and can be redistributed with that license.
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# [00:12] <fr0zenice> np eighty4
# [00:12] <Wilto> leaverou: Gotcha.
# [00:13] <@Garbee> As far as where it should go...
# [00:13] <@Garbee> First off, does anyone have a sitemap?
# [00:13] <leaverou> Wilto: there are also some more, wait a sec
# [00:13] <@Garbee> I would add an HTML subtopic for canvas: http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/html
# [00:13] <@Garbee> As long as no one else disagrees.
# [00:14] <David_Bradbury> paul_irish: I do like the MDN tutorials on the subject, but I feel it misses a few things. Would adding a few sections be fine / a better alternative?
# [00:14] <David_Bradbury> Garbee: Sounds good, I can do that.
# [00:14] <@Garbee> First where is the MDN stuff?
# [00:14] <@Garbee> I haven't noticed it yet.
# [00:14] <@Garbee> If there is already content then we should look at updating/fixing it.
# [00:14] <David_Bradbury> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/HTML/Canvas
# [00:15] <@Garbee> Also possibly moving into a better area.
# [00:15] <@Garbee> Well, I mean in webplatform.org
# [00:15] <leaverou> Wilto: so, main CSS: http://docs.webplatform.org/w/skins/webplatform/screen.css
# [00:15] <leaverou> Wilto: these get added in media queries: http://docs.webplatform.org/w/skins/webplatform/screen-520.css
# [00:15] <leaverou> Wilto: and http://docs.webplatform.org/w/skins/webplatform/screen-640.css
# [00:16] <fr0zenice> Garbee: maybe http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/tutorials/canvas/canvas_tutorial
# [00:16] <@paul_irish> shepazu: can I edit this page? http://talk.webplatform.org/chat/
# [00:16] <@Garbee> ah, thanks fr0zenice.
# [00:16] <@paul_irish> fr0zenice++
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# [00:16] <@Garbee> Ok, I think we need to fix this a little.
# [00:17] <Wilto> http://docs.webplatform.org/w/load.php?debug=false&lang=en&modules=mediawiki.legacy.commonPrint%2Cshared%7Cmediawiki.special%7Cskins.webplatform&only=styles&skin=webplatform&*
# [00:17] <Wilto> wat
# [00:17] <@paul_irish> mediawiki stylez
# [00:17] <fr0zenice> also a sitemap is a good idea :D
# [00:17] <@Garbee> canvas is root under the docs, but where is it linked to that is easily findable?
# [00:17] <Wilto> Man, MediaWiki, you sure are doing some things here.
# [00:17] <Wilto> leaverou: Got it.
# [00:17] <@Garbee> Oops, I'm in /canvas not /tutorials
# [00:17] <Jayflux> paul_irish when you created move the web forward and put it on github for people to help collaborate, did you pick a particular framework for that site? I can't remember without looking
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# [00:18] <@Garbee> Still, I think it needs to be easier to find or moved... Will flag to be discussed.
# [00:18] <Wilto> Jayflux: CSS-wise? Just whipped it up from scratch.
# [00:18] <leaverou> Wilto: if my understanding is correct, load.php gets all the CSS files, concatenates them, wraps them in media queries if needed (for the screen-XXX.css ones) and minifies
# [00:19] <David_Bradbury> I think that rather than adding to the MDN tutorials, maybe doing a section on more in depth, or advanced features in canvas might be appropriate. There is still quite a bit of room to explore with things like isPointInPath, Pixel Manipulation, etc...
# [00:19] <Jayflux> ah ok Wilto backend wise no PHP frameworks or anything just what you is what you get
# [00:20] <Wilto> Oh, oh, no—nothing like that.
# [00:20] <Wilto> “Git as a CMS,” I guess.
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# [00:20] <leaverou> Wilto: jekyll?
# [00:20] <NotTomato> paul_irish, he doesn't come on IRC, but sometimes I see him edit his profile on the wiki, he doesn't really edit much
# [00:21] <Wilto> leaverou: Oh, no, not even. Just editing raw markup.
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# [00:21] <leaverou> Wilto: then it's not git as a CMS, it's merely git as a VCS :)
# [00:21] <Wilto> Ah, but we were young, back then.
# [00:22] <leaverou> Wilto: no, I do that a lot. In general, I have a pretty heavy case of NIH :)
# [00:22] <Wilto> “Guest starring Git, as itself.”
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# [00:23] <@paul_irish> Jayflux: mtwf is a just a single html page
# [00:23] <@paul_irish> though we use some php for caching twitter searches
# [00:23] <Wilto> leaverou: Hah, seconded—stuff messing with my markup gives me cold sweats.
# [00:23] <Jayflux> ok
# [00:23] <@paul_irish> NotTomato: cool. thanks
# [00:23] <leaverou> Wilto: In general, I'm quite uneasy with the thought of using code without knowing exactly what it does — unless I really need it
# [00:24] <Jayflux> I wanted to do something similar but we may have many pages, and this will cause some disagrement about which framework to use probably
# [00:24] <Wilto> ( Totally forgot about http://movethewebforward.org/img/pugerton.png )
# [00:24] <@paul_irish> :D
# [00:24] <@paul_irish> Jayflux: just use jekyll. least disagreement.
# [00:25] <Wilto> leaverou: Same. I usually make a hackneyed analogy about “building the house I want, instead of buying one and walling-off all the rooms I don’t need.” I don’t get out much.
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# [00:25] <Wilto> Jayflux: [ Unsolicited second endorsement of Jekyll. ]
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# [00:36] <@paul_irish> how can we get a good hitlist of items for driveby contributors like awsumsauce earlier today?
# [00:37] * Parts: Neto (~Thunderbi@d23-16-40-250.bchsia.telus.net)
# [00:37] <@Garbee> paul_irish, Really we need a single place to host a quick list of things.
# [00:38] <@Garbee> Short of hosting our own bugtracker to handle it... Perhaps a quick page in the Wiki where people doc things that they think need to be done.
# [00:38] <@Garbee> Then as people finish things they can just remove it from that list.
# [00:38] <@paul_irish> i mean i think the bugtracker should be that
# [00:39] <@paul_irish> and we can add keywords like "goodfirstbug" kind of a thing
# [00:39] <@Garbee> I would like it to be, but for speed of getting it going now...
# [00:39] <@Garbee> paul_irish, Serverity level perhaps.
# [00:39] <@paul_irish> i'm fine with a more immediate solution using the wiki
# [00:39] <@Garbee> I was thinking have the current sections, plus Feature Request and ToDo in a new Bugtracker.
# [00:40] <@paul_irish> "new bugtracker" is dangerous language
# [00:40] <@Garbee> Then we could have the serverity of fix times as in the Getting Started Guide.
# [00:40] <@Garbee> We could just tag the Serverity as which category of time length we think it falls into.
# [00:41] <@Garbee> That way people might have an idea of what they are getting into.
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# [00:41] <@paul_irish> i like
# [00:41] <@Garbee> well, let me write that down somewhere for later...
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# [00:41] <@Garbee> I might just start a github repo for now with a list of things we come up with to get done later like that. w/o adding it to the current bug tracker.
# [00:42] <@Garbee> For now, let me get that page made...
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# [00:46] <@Garbee> Ok, if anyone knows of any tasks to be done please add them here: http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/ToDo_around_the_site
# [00:46] <@Garbee> NotTomato, ^^ Looking at you.
# [00:47] <leaverou> Wilto: I love that analogy! Will steal it if you don't mind :D
# [00:47] <@paul_irish> gotta be stuff from https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=webplatform.org&component=content&resolution=---&list_id=354 to add
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# [00:48] <@Garbee> Ok, I will check into that once I'm done linking to it from the Getting Started Guide.
# [00:48] * hober waves
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# [00:48] <@Garbee> That way people can flow right into the list w/o needing to know the link.
# [00:49] <@paul_irish> hey hober
# [00:49] <@paul_irish> Garbee: kickass
# [00:51] <@Garbee> Ok, Getting Started is updated, looking into the tracker now.
# [00:51] <@Garbee> Thanks for the link paul.
# [00:51] <@Garbee> paul_irish, Wow, I think we closed this in the process: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19445
# [00:52] <@paul_irish> ahahah
# [00:52] <@paul_irish> Boom
# [00:52] <@paul_irish> Garbee ftw
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# [00:53] <bloof> :-)
# [00:54] <@Garbee> Can anyone confirm this bug? I can't. https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19338
# [00:54] <@Garbee> ^^ bug should be in quotes.
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# [00:55] <hober> confirmed
# [00:55] <bloof> /!\
# [00:55] <fr0zenice> yeah saw that exclamation mark earlier
# [00:55] <@Garbee> ah, I see now.
# [00:55] <@Garbee> That littel thing.
# [00:55] <@Garbee> Well, the page isn't ending the content is. :/
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# [00:58] <ctoveloz[BR]> need to play with javascript :P
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# [01:00] <@Garbee> paul_irish, Looking over it nothing in the content section should or could be offloaded into the task section. Most of it is backend stuff with a few exceptions which need to be handled by people with admin rights.
# [01:00] <@Garbee> Although I did find a thing or two to help with.
# [01:00] <@paul_irish> oh
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# [01:00] <@paul_irish> weird.
# [01:00] <@paul_irish> scottrowe: you here?
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# [01:01] <@paul_irish> content TODOs might be caught up in the WPD namespace
# [01:01] <scottrowe> yup
# [01:01] <scottrowe> um, I mean, paul_irish: present!
# [01:01] <@paul_irish> scottrowe: hey dude. where would we find a list of outstanding TODOs for content? migration, authoring or otherwise
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# [01:02] <@Garbee> Yea, What is the WPD namespace for exactly? That would be handy to know.
# [01:02] <@paul_irish> meta pages. site planning etc.
# [01:02] <@Garbee> Yea, the ToDo technically falls under that.
# [01:03] <@Garbee> If we can get confirmation from another I will move it.
# [01:03] <scottrowe> paul_irish: we have an old issues list, but it's internal. I'd have to shoot you, etc.
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# [01:03] <@paul_irish> it has such low visibility though. I think we should probably move or very-dramatically-expose that content
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# [01:03] <@paul_irish> scottrowe: oh. that sounds terrible.
# [01:03] <scottrowe> paul_irish: por que?
# [01:04] <@Garbee> shepazu, Should we put the ToDo list under the WPD namespace?
# [01:04] <@paul_irish> the death part.
# [01:04] <@Garbee> haha
# [01:04] <@Garbee> I get it...
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# [01:04] <@Garbee> I hope.
# [01:04] <fr0zenice> Garbee: moving to WPD: seems right
# [01:04] <@paul_irish> scottrowe: remind me where the content bunches 1-13 (?) are documented?
# [01:05] <@Garbee> Alright, I will move it over.
# [01:06] <scottrowe> paul_irish: stand by...
# [01:06] <@Garbee> Ok, page moved, redirect in place, and WPD:GS updated with the new page link.
# [01:07] <@Garbee> Now to get some tasks in there.
# [01:08] <fr0zenice> paul_irish scottrowe: http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/WPD:Content/Content_List/Batch_1 ?
# [01:09] <@paul_irish> http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/WPD:Content/Content_List
# [01:10] <@Garbee> Ok, wtf is that... A list of things you lazy and overworked people were supposed to get done?
# [01:10] <@paul_irish> yup
# [01:10] <@paul_irish> most of it got done.
# [01:11] <@Garbee> We are going to start getting into NAT documentation?
# [01:11] <@Garbee> And full network topology?
# [01:11] <NotTomato> Garbee, I keep a personal to-do list on my own page. o;
# [01:12] <@Garbee> NotTomato, Cool, I'm looking then possibly stealing some FYI.
# [01:12] <NotTomato> I better expand it!!
# [01:12] <@Garbee> Right now I'm clearing out my Chrome tabs. It is nuts for me to just see a tabs icon.
# [01:12] <@Garbee> Which reminds me of a flag to go switch on...
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# [01:15] <sonotos> hm, is http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/content_list listing all the content without paging?
# [01:15] <leaverou> shepazu: is it ok if people post php question on Q&A?
# [01:16] <leaverou> *questions
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# [01:20] <@Garbee> paul_irish, NotTomato is awesome: http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/UserWiki:Tomato
# [01:21] <eighty4> leaverou: say yes and I can post an answer.
# [01:21] <fr0zenice> alright, that exclamation mark thing is fixed: http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/html#See_Also
# [01:21] <fr0zenice> queries the correct property value now, only 3 pages match, though
# [01:21] <leaverou> eighty4: yes to what?
# [01:21] <sonotos> This cute list is free for use. ♥ :-) hrhr cool
# [01:22] <fr0zenice> at least I think that's supposed to how it should work
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# [01:22] <eighty4> leaverou: the php thing. But from what I can see given that the docs is mainly frontend the QA should be as well?
# [01:23] <leaverou> eighty4: not sure, which is why I asked shepazu
# [01:24] <@Garbee> leaverou, No server-side language questions. They are off-topic even in Q&A.
# [01:24] <@Garbee> I do believe everyone is pretty much agreed on that front.
# [01:24] <leaverou> Garbee: cool, any ideas what we should do with them?
# [01:24] <@Garbee> We should respond giving them links to places where they can get help.
# [01:25] <@Garbee> Like SO/SE, php.net, mention #php, etc. Try to get people to places where they can get proper help when they bring things like that up.
# [01:25] <eighty4> Who created the W logo? I think I'm in love with it.
# [01:25] <@Garbee> Adobe iirc.
# [01:25] <@Garbee> Along with the site design.
# [01:25] <@Garbee> Yea, the logo is one nice peice of work.
# [01:25] <sonotos> http://stackoverflow.com/
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# [01:26] <sonotos> think that would be the best location to go for them, as mentioned on the ml
# [01:26] <eighty4> Garbee: cool. That along with the color palette is absolutly briliant.
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# [01:30] <leaverou> Garbee: Adobe created the initial design for WPD, but not the logo AFAIK
# [01:30] <leaverou> Garbee: the logo was created by an agency, I can find its name if you're interested
# [01:31] <eighty4> leaverou: you were thinking of http://talk.webplatform.org/forums/index.php/2161/both-fields-are-equal-null-value-cant-display-error-message? if so, I wouldn't really consider that to be a php question but more a programming question. But given front-end, it seems it shouldn't be supported in any case?
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# [01:32] <leaverou> eighty4: it is a php question
# [01:32] <leaverou> yes, it pertains to general programming, but still
# [01:33] <@Garbee> leaverou, If it isn't inconvenient I would love the know the agency that actually created it.
# [01:33] <eighty4> Me too.
# [01:33] <leaverou> Garbee: ok, one minute
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# [01:34] <leaverou> B-Reel
# [01:34] <@Garbee> NotTomato, Love the "Always Going tasks" part, just added a section for those.
# [01:35] <leaverou> they also made the color theme and font choice
# [01:35] <@Garbee> leaverou, Cool. They did a great job with it.
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# [01:37] <NotTomato> Thanks Garbee~
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# [01:40] <@Garbee> NotTomato, Your task list is really full (quite frankly only) of tasks that are going to take quite some time...
# [01:42] <NotTomato> Well
# [01:42] <NotTomato> each edit would only take like.. 30 seconds
# [01:42] <NotTomato> so really if you were bored and looking to clean up
# [01:42] <@Garbee> Yea, it is finding them all.
# [01:42] <NotTomato> you could look at the list
# [01:42] <NotTomato> here i'll find links for them.
# [01:43] <@Garbee> hmm... In that case let me make a note. It could be good for people to know that individual changes take little time, it is getting all of them that will take the most time.
# [01:43] <NotTomato> http://docs.webplatform.org/w/index.php?title=Special:LonelyPages&limit=500&offset=0
# [01:43] <fr0zenice> I guess some links to some special searches would be handy in the ToDo
# [01:44] <NotTomato> Yeah. D:
# [01:45] <@Garbee> So that link I'm guessing goes with " Put every page into a category..."
# [01:46] <NotTomato> No, fix "LonelyPages"
# [01:46] <NotTomato> http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/Special:UncategorizedPages
# [01:48] <@Garbee> How do you fix a lonely page exactly? That could be handy for people to know. Or did I overlook that from the Getting Started Guide?
# [01:49] <fr0zenice> just link to them somewhere
# [01:49] <fr0zenice> some special searches tell you what exactly a "LonelyPage" etc. is (description above the results)
# [01:49] <@Garbee> Yea, he gave us the search.
# [01:49] <@Garbee> I was just wondering what the exact fix was for them.
# [01:49] <@Garbee> Turns out they are the kid on the playground no one wants to play with.
# [01:49] <NotTomato> Usually if the page is lonely, it's probably missing templates because the api isn't picking it up.
# [01:50] <NotTomato> So just fixing the lonely pages in general would clean up a lot of the work list
# [01:50] <NotTomato> the lonelypage list is just a good place to look for pages that need work the most
# [01:51] <@Garbee> Well, I just said that they are typically the pages that need the most work at this time. If someone wants to expand more on exact thtings that needs to be done that would be great, otherwise we can leave it kinda general for now.
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# [01:53] <@Garbee> Ok, unless there is something major I'm shutting down for the night on this stuff.
# [01:53] <@Garbee> ugh no I'm not.
# [01:54] <@Garbee> I left the Dev Tools in a bad state.
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# [01:54] <Kryptos> Anyone else thinks this looks bad? http://cl.ly/image/280i1m2V462q
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# [01:55] <NotTomato> Oh hello friends.
# [01:55] <@Garbee> Kryptos, Kinda with the font, but it functions for now.
# [01:55] <Kryptos> Garbee: I meant the html, HTML
# [01:55] <Kryptos> ;P
# [01:56] <@Garbee> Oh, headings. Once again yes.
# [01:56] <@Garbee> Kryptos, I will look for a bug for it tomorrow, if I don't see one I will create one.
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# [01:57] <fr0zenice> I guess it's due to convention
# [01:57] <@Garbee> It is, but it shouldn't be that way. We should only see the page topic once.
# [01:57] <Kryptos> It's because the custom page title is not overwriting the 'html' I think
# [01:58] <Kryptos> No that's not it.
# [01:58] <Kryptos> HTML is the custom page title
# [01:58] <@Garbee> So, I'm calling it a bug that needs to get fixed until someone tells me they don't care about it. And if they do them I'm going to probably flip out.
# [01:58] <@Garbee> then*
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# [01:59] <leaverou> Garbee: AFAIK there is already a bug on the double page titles
# [02:00] <fr0zenice> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19322
# [02:00] <@Garbee> Cool, that saves me some time and work tomorrow.
# [02:00] <@Garbee> Thanks.
# [02:03] <Kryptos> What's user talk/
# [02:03] <Kryptos> ?
# [02:03] <@Garbee> The special wiki pages?
# [02:03] <Kryptos> http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/User_talk:Kryptos
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# [02:03] <@Garbee> Just your little space.
# [02:04] <Kryptos> Oh awesome
# [02:04] <fr0zenice> more exactly the talk about your little space or you :D
# [02:04] <@Garbee> tbh, I wouldn't use it.
# [02:04] <@Garbee> Tomato does for his own personal todo list.
# [02:04] <@Garbee> I'd use it for something like that if you were to make one.
# [02:04] <NotTomato> User_talk is for letting other people talk to you
# [02:05] <NotTomato> UserWiki:Kryptos would be your user spacea
# [02:05] <NotTomato> space
# [02:05] <@Garbee> Yea, Tomato is using his for a task list. Unless it is something productive like that I wouldn't use it since it kinda just adds cruft into the system. But that is me. :/
# [02:05] <fr0zenice> Garbee: don't confuse User:Tomato or UserWiki:Tomato with User_talk:Tomato :P
# [02:05] <NotTomato> http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/User_talk:Tomato here's an example of someone talking to me on my user talk
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# [02:06] <@Garbee> fr0zenice, O' dear. Did I do that? I'm sorry... Wait, am I?
# [02:06] <NotTomato> you can put templates on your user talk if you want, lol, just don't be surprised if other users randomlyl edit your user talk trying to talk to you
# [02:06] <NotTomato> traditionally that's what that page is used for
# [02:06] <NotTomato> randomly*
# [02:06] <@shepazu> #webplatform-offtopic
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# [02:06] <Kryptos> lol
# [02:06] <@shepazu> oops :)
# [02:07] <Kryptos> I was just thinking of how awesome it'd be to have your own blogging space ;P
# [02:07] <NotTomato> blogging space on the wiki?
# [02:07] <@Garbee> Kryptos, Yea, no.
# [02:07] <NotTomato> the entire wiki is your blog!
# [02:07] <@Garbee> Get your own blog, don't use the wiki system.
# [02:07] <NotTomato> you can blog about all the information you know about web development, in a non bias form
# [02:07] <NotTomato> it's lots of fun (;
# [02:08] <@Garbee> Wait... non-bias? Who has ever heard of such a think?
# [02:08] <Kryptos> Don't know how you can imagine I was thinking of using the wiki to blog
# [02:08] <NotTomato> i was trying to trick you into putting information on the wiki, is it working?
# [02:08] <@Garbee> Kryptos, Honestly I wouldn't be surprised. I have heard worse.
# [02:09] <Kryptos> Garbee: True that
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# [02:09] <Kryptos> NotTomato: I was feeling like doing the PHP page actually.
# [02:09] <@shepazu> later, interwebs
# [02:09] <Kryptos> cya'
# [02:10] <fr0zenice> bye
# [02:10] <@Garbee> Just as an FYI to anyone that wants to know. I protected the Developer Tools page with an expire time for one day, that way it doesn't get found and destroyed before it is finished.
# [02:11] <fr0zenice> gj :)
# [02:11] <@Garbee> I set it so only Admins can edit for one day, should give me enough time to get my outline done and get feedback before going any further.
# [02:11] <@Garbee> At that point the flood gates can let loose.
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# [02:13] <fr0zenice> alright guys, 2:00 AM, the WP(D) tabs take up 2 screen heights in FF (I'm using vertical tabs) and the nesting makes a nice random zigzag
# [02:13] <fr0zenice> time to get some sleep :)
# [02:14] <fr0zenice> cya laters
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# [02:20] <Kryptos> Bug: Can't really explain it, just -> http://cl.ly/image/2B1A2z0t0H0V
# [02:20] <Kryptos> The page shouldn't come up for each time 'php' is in it
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# [02:23] <@Garbee> No it shouldn't.
# [02:24] <@Garbee> I will look into it more tomorrow during bug day and see if there is already a report, if not then I will make one.
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# [02:43] <sethetter> Is the usemin task in h5bp build script a third party thing, or something only included with that build script?
# [02:44] <@Garbee> sethetter, I think that might be better asked in #html5 since more people hang out in there who probably know.
# [02:47] <sethetter> Garbee: thanks, will check there :)
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# [03:01] <@Garbee> I don't think I have ever written as much email in my *life* so far as I have written in the past 3 days for the Mailing List.
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# [03:06] <gaston_garcia> hello
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# [03:08] <@Garbee> People might be around...
# [03:09] <@Garbee> Do you need help with something?
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# [03:11] <@paul_irish> Garbee: your list involvement has been fantastic
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# [03:12] <@Garbee> paul_irish, Mailing list?
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# [03:13] <@Garbee> Also I'm planning on asking a few people I know to look at the site and give me some feedback so I can get a better view of what regular people outside of our community think would be proper.
# [03:13] <@Garbee> There level of web dev knowledge ranges, so I think that will give me a better idea of what other people are thinking about it so I can make a better decision on it.
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# [03:15] <@paul_irish> cool
# [03:16] <@Garbee> Basically, don't expect a completely final decision from me until at least next week is over.
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# [03:17] <@Garbee> I can say at this point I would *prefer* to not have it become about normal support like that, but if it is decided that we should do it then I will help out. (My mind won't thank be, but I'll do it.)
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# [03:30] <mdel> have we discussed the proper way to handle questions that are off-topic
# [03:30] <mdel> that is, downvoting vs flagging vs redirecting (if it makes sense to do so)
# [03:30] <@Garbee> Flagging only.
# [03:30] <@Garbee> well, no.
# [03:30] <@Garbee> Redirect if possible.
# [03:30] <@Garbee> Flag for things like server-side topics.
# [03:31] <gaston_garcia> Is any discussion happening on other language support?
# [03:31] <mdel> whats the case for downvoting then?
# [03:31] <@Garbee> For now, use this as a guide: http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/WPD:Keeping_on_Topic
# [03:31] <@Garbee> gaston_garcia, Server-side languages are out, period.
# [03:31] <@Garbee> Check the FAQ.
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# [03:31] <@Garbee> http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/WPD:FAQ
# [03:31] <mdel> Garbee: yes, I'm aware :) but that page does not discuss the proper handling of off-topic
# [03:31] <gaston_garcia> I mean Spanish/French etc. sorry didn't explain
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# [03:31] <@Garbee> mdel, Read please.
# [03:32] <@Garbee> Excertp from Q&A section just under examples: " Are all good fodder for webplatform.org documentation. In these situations, it would be a good idea to give the question asker a couple of links and a paragraph of relevant information, and then try to encourage them to look for further information themselves. Also try to encourage them to start a page on webplatform.org to document the information you have discussed. If they are unwilling to do
# [03:32] <@Garbee> this, pass the link round on our mailing list to see if anyone there is interesting in documenting it. "
# [03:32] <@Garbee> gaston_garcia, On, internationalization (i18n).
# [03:32] <@Garbee> oh*
# [03:32] <gaston_garcia> :) exactly
# [03:32] <mdel> Garbee: that page doesnt mention flagging. at all.
# [03:32] <@Garbee> Yea, it is being worked on.
# [03:32] <mdel> ... ok
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# [03:32] <@Garbee> mdel, Flag for server-side stuff that we have decided is not on-topic at all.
# [03:33] <@Garbee> And the like.
# [03:33] <@Garbee> If it is borderline, then don't flag but redirect until we come to a consensus.
# [03:33] <gaston_garcia> ok. I'm from Costa Rica and we have a small HTML/CSS Facebook group for developers to ask questions, etc. But then it would be great idea to bring them here.
# [03:33] <@Garbee> Please.
# [03:33] <@Garbee> gaston_garcia, Right now, as far as general tech support stuff we are still deciding on what to do about that stuff.
# [03:34] <gaston_garcia> alright, thanks
# [03:34] <@Garbee> If it is specific to our docs then please do bring them in. But general stuff sorry kinda up in the air at the moment.
# [03:34] <gaston_garcia> The project seems amazing
# [03:34] <@Garbee> Please check back in a week or two to see if we have come to a decision on that.
# [03:34] <gaston_garcia> ok
# [03:34] <@Garbee> If questions have to do with webplatform.org or the content directly, then do ask away.
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# [03:35] <gaston_garcia> So the docs on webplatform.org are being translated? Or is help needed on that?
# [03:36] <mdel> anyone else have any thoughts on flagging vs downvoting? For example, http://talk.webplatform.org/forums/index.php/1112/what-is-best-web-player
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# [03:37] <@Garbee> I can already say don't downvote.
# [03:37] <mdel> right, that should be flagged of course
# [03:37] <mdel> but then what would be the use-case for downvoting
# [03:37] <_cheney> translation is planned yes, it will require community involvement so if you can help, that would be lovely
# [03:38] <@Garbee> Yea, downvote only on *good* content that has an issue in your eyes (and please explain why you downvoted, unless it is the Q itself, then just kinda leave it.)
# [03:38] <mdel> sorry if this has been discussed, but it is not covered in the page you linked (which I have been following closely)
# [03:38] <@Garbee> Yea, it really hasn't been except in an answer by Tomato iirc.
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# [03:38] <@Garbee> I will find it for you in a few.
# [03:38] <@Garbee> For right now, just leave this a lone.
# [03:38] <@Garbee> alone*
# [03:38] <@Garbee> Vote or answer if you want.
# [03:39] <gaston_garcia> Yeah I guess I could do bit of translating, and at least try to get some other people on board from down here.
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# [03:39] <@Garbee> But, this is kinda borderline and needs to be discussed.
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# [03:39] <mdel> I'm not planning on doing much with questions until we nail things down a bit more
# [03:39] <@Garbee> I *think* it is proper though.
# [03:39] <Kryptos> Flagging is more for reporting something for being against the rules.
# [03:39] <@Garbee> We could use the answer to help improve the docs, if only we had a bit more specificity on what "Web Player" is for.
# [03:40] <Kryptos> Downvoting is just unliking a questions that you think is dumb, not necessary or pointless.
# [03:40] <@Garbee> mdel, http://talk.webplatform.org/forums/index.php/1912/how-can-we-make-the-q%26a-forums-more-useful
# [03:40] * Joins: Utitron (5c654efe@gateway/web/freenode/ip.92.101.78.254)
# [03:40] <Utitron> hi its me
# [03:40] <Utitron> i have one question now
# [03:40] <@Garbee> Utitron, We know.
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# [03:41] <Utitron> ok
# [03:41] <Utitron> now i translate him
# [03:41] <@Garbee> Ok, plese don't announce questions. Just ask.
# [03:41] <mdel> hmm, i definitely disagree that any question of the form "what is the best X" should be allowed
# [03:41] <mdel> but that smy opinion of course
# [03:41] <@Garbee> It is polite in real life, yes. But here it is just extra noise.
# [03:42] <gaston_garcia> mdel, why do you think those "what is the best" questions shouldn't be allowed?
# [03:42] <@Garbee> mdel, Not all. But *if* the answer/conversation can help improve docs, let it be.
# [03:42] <@Garbee> It is a fine line to see imo.
# [03:42] <mdel> see, if that's the stance then we need to define the line I think
# [03:43] <mdel> if "web player" is not defined in the docs, then this is OT
# [03:43] <@Garbee> The line is (for me) can it improve the docs?
# [03:43] <@Garbee> We are going to have things about web players that can be used on sites I'm guessing.
# [03:43] <Utitron> Why FPS (in 2D) in WebGL is 3-5 times greater (more) than in the Canvas?
# [03:43] <@Garbee> With <video> and <audio> information for HTML.
# [03:43] <mdel> right, of course
# [03:43] <@Garbee> Utitron, WebGL using the GPU directly. Canvas I don't think does that.
# [03:44] * cpg|away is now known as cpg
# [03:44] <_cheney> chrome enables the gpu for 2d canvas now
# [03:44] * Quits: devongovett (~devongove@pcp049365pcs.pcv.reshall.calpoly.edu) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [03:44] <_cheney> but you probably won't get the same results cross-browser
# [03:44] <mdel> i dont want to beat a dead horse. I know the point of our mailing list discussion, and the discussion here, is to define this type of thing
# [03:45] <@Garbee> If someone asks "What is the best {web browser, IDE, Text editor, online WYSIWYG editor}?" then I'd trash most of those. only exception being WYSIWYG, but that is really a judgement call in the moment for me.
# [03:45] <mdel> its definitely tough, but it needs to be done (asap in my opinion) to keep the Q&A valuable
# [03:45] <Utitron> i tested in google Crome too
# [03:45] <Utitron> WebGl moe FPS 3-5
# [03:45] <Utitron> more
# [03:46] <@Garbee> mdel, Yes, and it will take some time. I am personally trying to get plenty of views from many people of different skill levels outside of the community in order to help me make a more informed decision.
# [03:46] <Utitron> u know in Chrome about:flags
# [03:46] <@Garbee> chrome://flags
# [03:46] <mdel> Garbee: yeah, I think we all are
# [03:46] * Quits: gaston_garcia (~gaston_ga@186.32.189.222) (Quit: gaston_garcia)
# [03:46] <Utitron> "about:flags"
# [03:46] <@Garbee> about:flags forwards to chrome://flags
# [03:46] <_cheney> it's the same
# [03:46] <Utitron> there are many add options
# [03:47] <Utitron> they heeden u not see it in menu
# [03:47] <@Garbee> WebGL using the GPU directly. Canvas I don't think does that. ---This would explain it.
# [03:47] <Utitron> yes
# [03:48] <@Garbee> There is also a *reason* those aren't in the menu. But it is a conversation for offtopic.
# [03:49] <@Garbee> mdel, I can basically say it will be the end of next week if not the week after before I make a final decision on things. I don't think our current mob mentality has been very fruitful other than getting things against it mounted quickly.
# [03:49] * cpg is now known as cpg|away
# [03:49] <@Garbee> But for now, I'm taking a cautious approach I think to things.
# [03:50] <Utitron> In the future, the gap between the number of FPS will increase even more? Between Webgl and Cancas?
# [03:50] <mdel> Garbee: i really dont see the mob mentality, I think there have been many, many valid points against, and very few for (in the short term)
# [03:50] <@Garbee> Utitron, It could. No real way to tell if it will remain consistant or if it will go one way or the other.
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# [03:51] <@Garbee> mdel, Well we haven't heard from many people *for* it which is the problem.
# [03:51] <@Garbee> We have Doug saying he wants it and a few others. But very little in the Mailing List at all.
# [03:51] <mdel> right, I know
# [03:51] <@Garbee> I know Doug is working on it, so I am at least waiting to get his thoughts and comprehend them.
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# [03:51] <Utitron> Intel video chips work with WebGL? have good aceleration?
# [03:52] <@Garbee> Utitron, They should. WebGL uses OpenGL which basically all chips since 199x has supported from what someone was mentioning a few days ago to me.
# [03:53] <@Garbee> yea, they have OpenGL so WebGL should work just fine. Do note though Intel chips suck when it comes to graphics.
# [03:53] <Utitron> game will be 2D
# [03:53] <Utitron> no 3D
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# [03:54] <@Garbee> Intel still sucks.
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# [03:54] <@Garbee> I personally hate their graphics chips.
# [03:54] <mdel> Garbee: i mean, the keeping on topic page basically says no support
# [03:54] <mdel> so if we aren't decided, it should be removed
# [03:54] <Utitron> game must have 24 fps in sec minimum
# [03:54] <@Garbee> mdel, It is preliminary and really isn't fully enforcable yet since we haven't decided.
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# [03:54] <@Garbee> Think of it as a mockup.
# [03:55] <@Garbee> Utitron, You should really go to #webgl for that stuff.
# [03:55] <_cheney> what constitutes as support? someone coming in here asking for help on their project?
# [03:55] <@Garbee> We can't really help here.
# [03:56] <@Garbee> _cheney, Yea. Asking things like integrating some random jquery plugin, or handing us a website asking why something specific won't work on it.
# [03:56] <Utitron> i ask help to my project :)
# [03:56] <@Garbee> Just general tech support that there are plenty of other places to get help for.
# [03:56] <_cheney> ah ok. i'd say we just redirect them to the best of our ability
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# [03:57] <@Garbee> Utitron, And notice how I'm pointing you to #webgl for help? Since we don't cover it in that level and I don't think most people here know enough to really answer your questions properly/accurately.
# [03:57] <@Garbee> _cheney, Exactly.
# [03:57] <@Garbee> I'm all for redirecting and trying to get people to the right place.
# [03:57] <mdel> ^^
# [03:57] <Utitron> It makes sense to study the Canvas or not? He will die in the future, perhaps?
# [03:57] <@Garbee> But doing it ourselves is just adding too much extra work I think. Plus overall noise.
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# [03:58] <@Garbee> Utitron, Canvas has its uses.
# [03:58] <@Garbee> It will stick around.
# [03:58] <@Garbee> There is no reason to not study it in order to learn about it.
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# [03:59] <@Garbee> Just do it and get a better overall understanding of how things work. Then you also know the pitfalls and good sides to the technology so you can make an informed decision on using it.
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# [03:59] <Utitron> Canvas where uses? WebGL can replace it. And WebGL faster.
# [04:00] <@Garbee> Utitron, I don't think any place is the conversation for that right now. WebGL still needs to be widely supported before that can even be considered.
# [04:00] <@Garbee> Canvas will be around for a while to say the least.
# [04:00] <Utitron> WebGL capabilities are much broader.
# [04:01] <@Garbee> Canvas is supported.
# [04:01] <@Garbee> Catch 22 there.
# [04:01] <_cheney> remember when we had to use flash for that stuff? ah, the good ol' days
# [04:01] <@Garbee> Well I'm done for the evening. You all have a good {morning,evening,night,afternoon}.
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# [04:02] <mdel> Garbee: g'night!
# [04:02] <Utitron> night
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# [04:03] <mdel> anyone here with permissions to update the Volunteer page?
# [04:03] <Utitron> I'm starting to learn. I am guided by the future. And I think that the only WebGL.
# [04:04] <Utitron> u know flash?
# [04:04] <mdel> Utitron: right or wrong, you should choose the technology right for your application.
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# [04:04] <mdel> the technology BEST for your application
# [04:04] <Utitron> i chose WebGl
# [04:04] <_cheney> and it's probably not flash
# [04:05] <mdel> Utitron: nice, then you should focus on that
# [04:05] <Utitron> Possible to do an online game for many players on Flash?
# [04:06] <Utitron> make posseble?
# [04:06] <Utitron> mel?
# [04:06] <Utitron> mdel?
# [04:06] <_cheney> not sure, but flash is off-topic
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# [04:07] <Utitron> we can add flash in docs then will good
# [04:08] <Utitron> ok i will be use WebGL for my nyan game
# [04:08] <Utitron> thanks to all!
# [04:08] <_cheney> have fun
# [04:08] <Utitron> for answers!
# [04:08] <Utitron> bye and night
# [04:08] <Utitron> !
# [04:08] <Utitron> b!
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# [04:10] <_cheney> nyan games are serious business
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# [04:15] <plamoni> _cheney, Nyan games are always on topic.
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# [04:17] <plamoni> Case in point: http://jsfiddle.net/axe63/
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# [04:20] <_cheney> nice
# [04:20] <plamoni> did you try the "NYAN!" button?
# [04:20] <_cheney> yes, although i'm unsure about what he's doing
# [04:21] <plamoni> takes about 45 seconds to complete
# [04:21] <_cheney> i guess i can just let it run for awhile
# [04:21] <_cheney> haha ok, i see it now
# [04:21] <plamoni> here's the "on topic" part: http://mootools.net/blog/2012/08/08/javascript-challenge-3/#comment-2828
# [04:21] <plamoni> haha
# [04:21] <plamoni> and http://mootools.net/blog/2012/08/08/javascript-challenge-3/#comment-2830
# [04:22] <_cheney> haha wow, check out this one http://jsfiddle.net/FGAun/
# [04:22] <plamoni> in depth examination of the performance characteristics and improvement strategies for canvas animation and drawing...
# [04:22] <plamoni> haha, yeah, who is that good looking fellow?!
# [04:23] <_cheney> can't see the entire face yet
# [04:24] <plamoni> http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/11c1233c93af05a86ee247efa8e27545
# [04:24] <plamoni> in case you don't feel like waiting
# [04:24] <_cheney> yeah it's the author's grav
# [04:25] <plamoni> I'm the author...
# [04:25] <plamoni> it's me
# [04:25] <plamoni> :-P
# [04:25] <amirouche> I like faces too
# [04:25] <plamoni> the "P" in "plamoni" is for "Pete"
# [04:26] <_cheney> seriously? lol
# [04:26] <plamoni> yeah
# [04:26] <plamoni> i went a bit overboard on that challenge
# [04:26] <_cheney> well that's an interesting coincidence
# [04:26] <plamoni> how so?
# [04:26] <_cheney> that i happened to link yours
# [04:27] <plamoni> meh, i sent you to the page... and sort of dominated that challenge :-P
# [04:27] * amirouche backlogging
# [04:28] <plamoni> i'm sad they quit doing them... but sadly i was the only entry in the last one... so i guess that's why they quit doing them
# [04:28] <amirouche> sorry to interupt but it doesn't respond to keystroke
# [04:28] <plamoni> meh, we're offtopicing anyway
# [04:28] <plamoni> what doesn't respond to keystrokes?
# [04:28] <amirouche> the cat
# [04:28] <plamoni> haha
# [04:28] <amirouche> the cat with peace flag
# [04:28] <_cheney> yeah i tried using arrow keys at first too
# [04:29] <amirouche> which actually pee a flag to be exact
# [04:29] <plamoni> haha
# [04:29] <amirouche> it's nice to have that kind of challenge though
# [04:29] <amirouche> it seems a bit simple at first
# [04:29] <amirouche> but I guess it's not
# [04:30] <plamoni> well, you can always take it way beyond the parameters
# [04:30] <plamoni> which is what makes it fun
# [04:30] <amirouche> plamoni, I got yours fiddle
# [04:30] <amirouche> I think
# [04:30] <amirouche> It looks like a printer for the old '90 but with a cat!
# [04:31] <plamoni> it probably operates the same way, actually
# [04:31] <amirouche> true
# [04:31] <plamoni> in order to speed things up, i have it go faster when the colors aren't changing for a bit...
# [04:31] <plamoni> which is probably how older printers work
# [04:31] <plamoni> so the effect looks similar
# [04:32] <plamoni> you can learn a lot from this kind of open-ended challenge
# [04:32] <plamoni> i know i did
# [04:33] <gluxon> Hm.. plamoni..
# [04:33] <amirouche> don't spend too much time fiddling with cat peeing flags or doing printer's work though
# [04:33] <gluxon> plamoni: You aren't the same plamoni as the SiriProxy dev, are you?
# [04:33] <plamoni> that's me
# [04:34] <plamoni> my claim to fame ;-)
# [04:34] <gluxon> plamoni: Wow, that's awesome. :)
# [04:34] <amirouche> ^^
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# [04:35] <plamoni> did you just google me or have you actually tried using SiriProxy?
# [04:35] <amirouche> Ok this talks about apples, I don't think I can't handle a discussion
# [04:35] <gluxon> plamoni: I actually have used SiriProxy. Your name seemed like.. *really* familiar, so I cheated and googled you. :P
# [04:36] <plamoni> coolness... if you got it up and running i applaud you...
# [04:36] <plamoni> it's not a simple thing to do
# [04:36] <gluxon> plamoni: Really? The hard part is developing it.
# [04:36] <plamoni> especially for web developers :-)
# [04:36] <plamoni> nah... that was easy... Applidium did the hard work... i just implemented it in a usable fashion...
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# [04:37] <plamoni> i'm a web developer by day... so SSL MITM implementations are sort of outside my comfort zone ;-)
# [04:37] <gluxon> plamoni: Still impressive :P
# [04:37] <plamoni> so is Ruby... I'm a Java dev...
# [04:37] <amirouche> plamoni, you should add dilbert comic about the subject https://github.com/plamoni/SiriProxy#about
# [04:38] <amirouche> lmgtfy
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# [04:38] <gluxon> I've been working on a Node.js Siri Server port. Still need to figure out zlib decompression without headers as all Node.js zlib implementations require it.
# [04:39] <gluxon> Nothing impossible :)
# [04:39] <plamoni> you're right... i'd love to see the result... sounds like an opportunity to write a gzip implementation!
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# [04:40] <amirouche> plamoni, http://youtu.be/McugOa3JmbQ?t=1m12s
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# [04:40] <gluxon> Yeah, this is a really long term project of mine, as I don't even have all the required API's available in Node.js yet.
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# [04:42] <amirouche> it is hilarious, I though you were refering to this in the about section
# [04:42] <amirouche> a bit geeky maybe
# [04:43] <plamoni> haha, i never saw that... but its pretty funny...
# [04:43] <amirouche> glad you like it
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# [04:44] * amirouche back to productive stuff
# [04:44] <plamoni> Yeah, the OT mods are going to crack down on us any second now :-P
# [04:45] <gluxon> It's not completely off-topic :)
# [04:45] <amirouche> THE CHICKEN MAN!
# [04:46] <amirouche> sorry
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# [04:57] <gluxon> So actually, I'm going to be teaching basics of web design to around 15 or so students in 2 hours. What do the fair people here recommend me going over? :)
# [04:57] <gluxon> In 2 hours as in that's the time I have, not teaching 2 hours from now.
# [04:58] <_cheney> development?
# [04:58] <plamoni> first class functions, closures, duck typing, and performance characteristics of native arrays in comparison to JS arrays...
# [04:59] <plamoni> oh, wait, you said "basic"
# [04:59] <amirouche> give it a name first :p
# [04:59] <_cheney> here's a good start for them http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/beginners
# [04:59] <plamoni> _cheney, +1
# [04:59] <amirouche> the basics would mean what, how, why from a high foot
# [04:59] <_cheney> is it a onetime class? or something ongoing
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# [05:17] <@Garbee> I hate myself sometimes.
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# [05:18] <amirouche> mind the fact, that you might like the present things differently if the student were forced to do the class or not, I think, most people at talked about webdev during my «enginerring years» were scared somewhat by webdev too much technos, too much infrastructure et al.
# [05:19] <amirouche> s/at/I/
# [05:19] <amirouche> gluxon, ^
# [05:20] <gluxon> amirouche: That's a good point. Everyone attending is doing it by their own will though.
# [05:20] * @Garbee rages at SSO internally because the true output is too vulgar for this room.
# [05:21] <gluxon> These are high schoolers that have no previous knowledge about web sites.
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# [05:21] <gluxon> And it's one time :)
# [05:21] <@Garbee> Then I wouldn't even cover too much code.
# [05:21] <amirouche> ugh
# [05:21] <_cheney> should be more of a sales pitch
# [05:21] <amirouche> +1
# [05:21] <@Garbee> I would try to explain to them *why* learning some kind of coding could be useful experience and explain how they can learn more about this stuff.
# [05:22] <_cheney> cover why they should be interested, and how they can explore it on their own
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# [05:22] <@Garbee> Get them interested in bettering themselves or their understanding of something through coding and why web might be a good place to start.
# [05:22] <gluxon> Great.
# [05:22] <@Garbee> tbh, 2 hours isn't enough prep time.
# [05:22] <@Garbee> At this point you basically show up and let things flow.
# [05:23] <amirouche> maybe some kind of QA might work
# [05:23] <gluxon> Garbee: It's 2 hours long, I have at least a week to prepare based on where it lands. A month at most.
# [05:23] <amirouche> but some people get lost in QA sessions
# [05:23] <@Garbee> Ah, I mis-understood your post earlier.
# [05:24] <@Garbee> Well then you have plenty of time to prepare.
# [05:24] <gluxon> Right. :)
# [05:24] <@Garbee> I think this discussion is best served over in #webplatform-offtopic though.
# [05:24] <@Garbee> So if we could move it over there that would be wonderful.
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# [06:53] <arkhi1> Hola...
# [06:53] <Ordona> Hi
# [07:01] <AGM114K2A> hi
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# [07:06] <ee_persian> hi all
# [07:06] <ee_persian> who work on PHP ?
# [07:08] <eternicode> ee_persian, ##php ;D
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# [07:09] <eternicode> alrighty, then.
# [07:10] <AGM114K2A> i work on php, what's up?
# [07:10] <ctoveloz[BR]> i
# [07:10] <ctoveloz[BR]> cakephp..
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# [07:36] <amirouche> ctoveloz[BR], u no stop this ?!
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# [07:39] <ctoveloz[BR]> amirouche whi ?
# [07:40] <ctoveloz[BR]> why
# [07:40] <amirouche> someone you or someone else is trolling everybody about cakephp, stop it already
# [07:41] <ctoveloz[BR]> difficult
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# [07:48] <tomshreds> hey guys, what do you use to manage your projects?
# [07:49] <amirouche> tomshreds, I use github for my personnal projects does this answer you question ?
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# [07:53] <ctoveloz[BR]> lol
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# [08:00] <amirouche> we use both github and bitbucket for work related stuff, and trac and some homemade tracker
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# [08:14] <ctoveloz[BR]> need to play with javascript
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# [08:14] <ctoveloz[BR]> I do not know what to do :P
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# [09:22] <Ywka> hi )
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# [10:22] <ctoveloz[BR]> hi
# [10:23] <ravenzz> hi ctoveloz[BR]
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# [11:26] <fr0zenice> hi
# [11:27] <ctoveloz[BR]> hi
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# [13:32] <Samar> Hi
# [13:35] <@Garbee> Hello. Do you need help with something?
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# [13:39] <hapi> c
# [13:41] <@Garbee> d?
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# [13:41] <@Garbee> I don't know where to go from there. Sorry.
# [13:44] <Damianz> e?
# [13:45] <fr0zenice> the correct answer would have been c++
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# [13:47] <Samar> Yes plz. Could you suggest me anyway to efficiently edit content for webplaform pages.
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# [13:48] <Samar> I mean i want to contribute to webplatform regarding css and nodejs. How can i do so?
# [13:48] <@Garbee> nodejs is out of the scope of our documentation.
# [13:49] <Samar> oh okay.
# [13:49] <@Garbee> css however has its own section! http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/css
# [13:49] <@Garbee> If you haven't already please look over the Getting Started Guide as well: http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/WPD:Getting_Started
# [13:50] <Samar> okay, thanks for you ur reply. I appreciate.
# [13:50] <Samar> *your
# [13:50] <@Garbee> Ah, and this: http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/WPD:Style_Manual
# [13:50] <@Garbee> That is pretty important.
# [13:52] <Samar> okay, i will go through with these documents in details. Looking forward to contribute something this weekend.
# [13:52] <@Garbee> Thanks for wanting to help out.
# [13:52] <fr0zenice> contributors are winners!
# [13:52] <@Garbee> Please ask if you have any questions either here or in the Q&A.
# [13:53] <@Garbee> Personal note: I would *like* to see questions about editing in the Q&A currently so others have a better chance of seeing it.
# [13:53] <@Garbee> But, if you need immediate feedback then we are always open.
# [13:54] <Samar> Sure, i will. Thanks for your helping hand. I appreciate.
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# [13:55] <@Garbee> We appreciate you wanting to help out Samar. Everyone that does only make sthe Docs that much better.
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# [16:06] <phwd> why is the Q&A spitting back my ip address instead of my username :S
# [16:07] <@Garbee> It is a known issue: http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/WPD:KnownIssues
# [16:07] <@Garbee> It is a problem with the session handling currently in use.
# [16:08] <fr0zenice> you can try going to http://docs.webplatform.org/w/index.php?title=Special:UserLogout clearing your cookies and logging back in
# [16:09] <phwd> Cool I'll try that
# [16:09] <@Garbee> The technical answer is MediaWiki isn't liking the user cookie being shared between itself and the Q2A system.
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# [16:09] <@Garbee> Yea, you can do that, but after visiting a few pages or a certain amount of time you could get back to needing to clear cookies and all.
# [16:10] <@Garbee> So just be warned it isn't a permanent fix, just when it happens that can help.
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# [16:12] <phwd> Is MediaWiki not used to being controlled as a Q&A?
# [16:13] <@Garbee> The session cookie is being used to make an SSO for the site.
# [16:13] <@Garbee> They are 2 separate systems, which is MediaWiki's problem with the way it is currently configured.
# [16:13] <fr0zenice> The actual Q&A software is called Question2Answer.
# [16:13] <@Garbee> It thinks the cookie is being used in a bad way.
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# [16:18] <phwd> Silly question then, what's the priority of the Q&A to the docs
# [16:19] <phwd> If the community is mashing two different systems together something is gonna give
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# [16:20] <@Garbee> phwd, Priority is Docs first ofc. But, the Q&A system will be fixed somehow. It is just taking time due to the setup and config that we have.
# [16:21] <@Garbee> The thing is admin resources who have that level of access and expertise is limited. So working out the best solution and implementing it will take some time.
# [16:21] <@Garbee> There is a *reason* for the alpha tag. ;)
# [16:22] <@Garbee> We ask that you do be patient with the system though while we get things patched up and figured out.
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# [16:26] <phwd> Sure alpha tag should be given space to breathe. I can agree with that
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# [16:27] <phwd> There is only so much breathing space though
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# [16:28] <phwd> Regardless one more question :)
# [16:29] <phwd> http://talk.webplatform.org/forums/index.php/53/please-dont-capitalize-the-first-letter-of-the-username the answers here are incorrect if Question2Answer is indeed the system running the Q&A
# [16:29] <fr0zenice> The users are pulled in via SSO from MediaWiki.
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# [16:31] <fr0zenice> That means Q&A doesn't have its own user-database, but uses the one from the docs.
# [16:32] <phwd> any reason who not hold both user sets of data in one profile? It seems Q2A also allows gravatars and OpenID login if plugins are installed
# [16:32] <phwd> why not hold*
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# [16:36] <fr0zenice> I guess it's easier for the user to just create a wiki account and automatically have access to the others system, like Q&A or maybe a on-site bugtracker later.
# [16:36] <fr0zenice> having different usernames in those systems seems confusing
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# [16:41] <GONDO> hi
# [16:41] <GONDO> is there anybody ?
# [16:41] <fr0zenice> hello
# [16:41] <GONDO> hi
# [16:42] <GONDO> here is like a ghost city
# [16:42] <GONDO> :)
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# [16:42] <phwd> To be fair, currently, based on login issues... it would be easier to login with OpenID via a system like Question2Answer
# [16:42] <phwd> And this isn't solely to do with usernames
# [16:43] <GONDO> anyone ?
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# [16:43] <GONDO> where are the developers ?
# [16:43] <phwd> There is a lot of functionality in Question2Answer that is not being used. Which is perfectly fine based on the priority
# [16:44] <@Garbee> phwd, We agree, but MediaWiki *is* the user database. We can only use what it supports.
# [16:44] <@Garbee> SSO using OpenID and the like *is* something to be done, but it wasn't a launch blocker.
# [16:44] <@Garbee> Once again, hence why it is alpha. Alpha gives it much more breathing rom then most people think. And if people think otherwise they should reconsider their view of alpha software.
# [16:45] <@Garbee> There are lots of known UX issues on top of pure functionality.
# [16:46] <@Garbee> Alpha stage is for *developers* to get in and help clean up and write documentation. People are free to point out bugs and issues to be fixed and/or improved later, but for now there are some major fucuses on getting what we have fully functional (like SSO between MW and Q2A).
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# [16:50] <phwd> I always thought of alpha as a stage to ensure stability of the current feature set
# [16:50] <phwd> You said yourself "while we get things patched up and figured out"
# [16:50] <@Garbee> No, that is RC.
# [16:50] <@Garbee> Alpha is *way* before RC.
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# [16:51] <@Garbee> Alpha > Beta > RC > Release. We actually could just not do an official beta or RC and just go straight from alpha to Release. That is up to people way beyond me, although I do hope we have the proper stage milestones to get things properly sorted.
# [16:52] <@Garbee> Which thanks for making me think of that, it is something I think needs addressing.
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# [16:57] <Damianz> really a release cycle isn't that straight forward as there are multiple releases and multiple work flows per release in each 'stage'
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# [16:58] <phwd> So, I just want to be clear on this... focus on docs forget the minor bugs only file for something major that impacts actually working on docs?
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# [16:58] <@Garbee> File a bug for anything that is a bug.
# [16:59] <@Garbee> In fact today just let me know what you think is a bug and I will confirm and report them myself.
# [16:59] <Damianz> unless it's already filed :D
# [16:59] <@Garbee> (today is my bug day.)
# [16:59] <@Garbee> Yea, most major catches are probably already spotted and filed, but I'm double checking those in a few and then working on finding/confirming new bugs and reporting them appropriately.
# [17:00] <@Garbee> This way hopefully we can make sure that most bugs are at least filed and we can start focusing on cleaning up the noise made about them.
# [17:00] <Damianz> That's why developers at work hate me, they release something to get feedback, I file 60bug reports :D
# [17:01] <@Garbee> Damianz, *cough* Canonical *cough*... but explaining this is for offtopic.
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# [17:01] <Damianz> Canonical is meh, ubuntu keeps changing direction too much
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# [17:02] <GONDO> hi web deveoplers. I have a question ,but it is offtopic :)
# [17:02] <GONDO> u wanna hear it
# [17:02] <fr0zenice> Feel free to drop into #webplatform-offtopic
# [17:03] <GONDO> ok
# [17:03] <GONDO> :)
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# [17:40] <bill__> i wanted to edit the http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/html/elements/div page to reflect w3c standards for lowercase tag names. The only thing it let me edit was the example though
# [17:40] <bill__> anyone know what I might have done wrong? I just look at a preview, didn't save it
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# [17:42] <@Garbee> Tag names don't matter anymore to standards.
# [17:42] <@Garbee> HTML will take upper or lower now just fine.
# [17:42] <@Garbee> But, do make sure your email is registered.
# [17:42] <Damianz> Writing HTML in upper case is just evil
# [17:42] <@Garbee> http://talk.webplatform.org/forums/index.php/2136/how-do-i-edit-a-wiki-page
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# [17:43] <@Garbee> Yea, I think it should be lower just for consistancy.
# [17:43] <@Garbee> technically though it does not matter.
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# [17:46] <eighty4> Garbee: they might not matter but mixing is horribly ugly
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# [17:47] <@Garbee> eighty4, Yea... Have you seen the source for the site itself?
# [17:47] <@Garbee> Take a peek sometime.
# [17:47] <@Garbee> nasty stuff in there.
# [17:48] <eighty4> Garbee: it's build on WP. I'm not going to open the source :|
# [17:48] <bill__> ah
# [17:48] <@Garbee> No, front-end source.
# [17:48] <bill__> they you
# [17:48] <Damianz> Question2Answer makes some ugly HTML
# [17:48] <@Garbee> The markup to the pages themselves. Even on the homepage I have seen cap tags.
# [17:48] <bill__> thank you
# [17:48] <bill__> **
# [17:49] <bill__> @Garbee :0
# [17:49] <@Garbee> Oh, not the homepage.
# [17:49] <@Garbee> But some others.
# [17:49] <@Garbee> Unless the homepage got fixed which I doubt.
# [17:49] <@Garbee> I think my mind is just going at this point.
# [17:49] <@Garbee> bill__, For what?
# [17:49] <@Garbee> I didn't do anything.
# [17:49] * Damianz thinks webplatform really needs a cdn. or assets. because hell assets are being pulled from everywhere for pages
# [17:50] <eighty4> Garbee: All I meant was that the markup is rendered by WP :)
# [17:50] <bill__> mixed tags
# [17:50] <bill__> :P
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# [17:53] <eighty4> "confirmation e-mail" I haven't gotten any :(
# [17:53] <BillC> it took me two trys
# [17:54] <BillC> or just give it a min
# [17:54] <fr0zenice> check your junk folder eighty4
# [17:54] <eighty4> Registered last night. Two tries?
# [17:54] <eighty4> fr0zenice: nothing there either
# [17:54] <fr0zenice> :(
# [17:54] <eighty4> or is it sent from something other than webplatform.org?
# [17:54] <Damianz> I like how people still say check your junk folder, I've never had a junk folder :D
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# [17:55] <fr0zenice> it's from "MediaWiki Mail <noc@webplatform.org>"
# [17:55] <fr0zenice> subject is "WebPlatform Docs e-mail address confirmation"
# [17:55] <eighty4> … it was in the spam folder. How did I not find it the first time.
# [17:56] <fr0zenice> hehe
# [17:56] <eighty4> Who desided to use sendgrid.me?
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# [17:57] <fr0zenice> I guess you'd have to ask Ryan_Lane about that
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# [17:59] <lampe2> hello my friends
# [17:59] <fr0zenice> greetngs
# [17:59] <fr0zenice> +i
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# [18:03] <eighty4> So, would I be terribly out of line if I lowercased the <div>s in http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/html/elements/div ?
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# [18:05] <@Garbee> eighty4, Lowercase them all!
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# [18:06] <@Garbee> That is the de' facto standard and will end up in our code style guide. So all the changes now the less we need to do later.
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# [18:18] <BillC> eighty4 did you figure it out
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# [18:27] <plamoni> Uh oh, stackoverflow is down... Now I am stupid again!
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# [18:56] <forgetfulvet> just found the Web Platform website... It is in it's very early beta?
# [18:57] <@Garbee> It isn't even beta.
# [18:57] <@Garbee> The notice of it being alpha is on every page in the docs.
# [18:57] <@Garbee> The entire site is really alpha, not just the docs.
# [18:58] <@Garbee> Contributions are welcome but the backend still has quite a few kinks to work out along with the theme.
# [18:59] <forgetfulvet> duh.. yeah.. looking at it now.. ALPHA.. geez
# [19:00] <@Garbee> We may not even have a beta phase. It could go straight from Alpha to release.
# [19:00] <forgetfulvet> anyhow, I was wondering abou the debate about clearing text, such as the text-indent hack. You think there will be a standardise way of doing it?
# [19:00] <@Garbee> As far as getting to true launch it is still kinda unkown to anyone tbh.
# [19:01] <@Garbee> I don't know of that debate or hack at all. Could you link to some information on them please?
# [19:01] <forgetfulvet> latest used: font: 0/0 a; text-shadow: none;
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# [19:02] <forgetfulvet> there is just too many.. just search google for text-ident hack
# [19:02] <@Garbee> I think if things like that exist then each one probably has its own benefit to use in different situations.
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# [19:03] <@Garbee> Since there are multiple *proper* ways to do it too, I don't think a consensus would be reached unless it gets included in something like the HTML5BP or other big projects like it.
# [19:03] <forgetfulvet> old and still used way is text-indent: -9999%; However, since responsive design is all the rage, it makes for poor coding for mobile
# [19:05] <@Garbee> Honestly, throw this into the Q&A section. I think it would be nice to have plenty of eyes and responses there and documented.
# [19:05] <@Garbee> That way we can work on documenting it later and use the conversation as a reference.
# [19:05] <@Garbee> I personally have no view on it since I have never done it. Would be nice to learn more about though.
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# [19:06] <Damianz> 'there are multiple *proper* ways to do it' yet we take so long to decide people invent their own and then deprecate them in years to come... but I won't get into that
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# [19:07] <@Garbee> My thing is there are many ways that work, so I don't really see a need to standardize it. Just find a way that works and go with it.
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# [19:08] <@Garbee> I think it would be nice to have one to say "just use this, it works 99.98% of the time or is the most efficient method" and be done with it.
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# [19:16] <arkhi> Garbee: One of the three pillars, in short? :)
# [19:16] <arkhi> (hi there)
# [19:17] * @Garbee is lost in the pillar reference.
# [19:18] <arkhi> The pragmatism in http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/WPD:Policy/Pillars
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# [19:21] <@Garbee> Ok, I'm lost in reference now. Exactly which part of the conversation were you referring to? -Sorry I'm thick right now with people talking around me.
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# [19:32] <arkhi> I understood what you wrote as pure pragmatism, that's all: This works; use this.
# [19:32] <arkhi> No big deal. :)
# [19:33] <eighty4> Damianz: talking IR? what *proper* ways are there to do that? I've actually never seen any
# [19:34] <eighty4> what way is suggested on webplatforms I wonder
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# [19:39] <Benvie> what would be a good way to contribute data materials. I have been refining a library and tool that generates JavaScript friendly JSON from IDL and I think it might be useful here
# [19:39] <Benvie> https://github.com/Benvie/idl-for-javascript/blob/master/json/html5.json
# [19:39] <Benvie> for example
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# [19:44] <@Garbee> eighty4, What do you mean by IR?
# [19:44] <eighty4> Garbee: Image replacement. Just read that you were talking negative text-indent.
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# [19:51] <@Garbee> Oh, ok.
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# [19:51] <@Garbee> I saw that and thought you meant something about InfraRed.
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# [19:59] <arkhi1> night night...
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# [20:03] <eighty4> Garbee: no :) I'm a web developer for me IR means image replacement and nothing else
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# [20:04] <eighty4> evening icaaq and erichynds
# [20:04] <erichynds> good afternoon
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# [20:09] <icaaq> eighty4: hi :)
# [20:13] <eighty4> Is there actually a valid reason to have the "Compatibility" part for elements? Wouldn't it be simpler/better to link to caniuse.com?
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# [20:16] <Unitron> hi
# [20:16] <Unitron> What did you decide about the site?
# [20:17] <Unitron> hey? Any Here?
# [20:19] <Unitron> Where all?
# [20:20] <Charun> Hiding probably
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# [20:20] <@Garbee> Unitron, I am here. Please don't PM without permission.
# [20:21] <Unitron> ok
# [20:21] <Unitron> [22:05] <Unitron> What did you decide about the site?
# [20:21] <@Garbee> Unitron, That decision won't be made at least until late next week when we have heard from more people about their thoughts.
# [20:21] <@Garbee> We simply need more detailed discussion from both sides at this point.
# [20:22] <Unitron> Opinion of all men will be considered?
# [20:22] <Charun> Is this still the server-side language discussion, or is something else being decided?
# [20:24] <@Garbee> Unitron, We are taking considerations from many people, even outside of the community itself. We simply need more detailed conversation at this point, there is really nothing else to say on the matter at this time.
# [20:24] <Unitron> ok
# [20:25] <@Garbee> I am trying to take all sides into account when I make my decision on it. I am trying to get everyone else to do the same.
# [20:26] <@Garbee> It is just taking time since we haven't really heard a good discussion *for* taking the questions. I do know one person who is writing their thoughts out for us who wants to do it and I am trying to find a few others who want it to join in.
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# [20:28] <Garbee> Wow, wrong button.
# [20:29] <Garbee> Unitron, I am making a tally of what people want. From what you have said I'm pretty sure your is going for doing normal support. I'm going to get a rough tally and see if that affects anyone elses decision.
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# [20:48] <eighty4> If interested I'm against more general support. There's already great places for that.
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# [20:49] <Garbee> eighty4, Thanks noted.
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# [20:53] <Unitron> My opinion is (save ot please): I want on site a lot of information for beginning and pro web-developers (complete courses, full nub->guru courses). How develop sites and games and etc (coding, design, appearance, creating textures, models, music and sounds, creating gameplay and sceneries...). I want courses about HTML5, JS, WebGL,Canvas, CSS, Java, Flash and Unity too, and others. And want in chat full support materials of site
# [20:54] <Garbee> Unitron, I can already say a good portion of that is out of the scope completely.
# [20:54] <Garbee> I will take note and incorporate what is in-scope from it into future discussions.
# [20:54] <Unitron> I think we need to expand horizons
# [20:55] <Garbee> We aren't going to cover flash and java to start.
# [20:55] <Unitron> ok
# [20:55] <Garbee> Those have already been decided on.
# [20:55] <Garbee> Unity, I need to do more research and discuss it.
# [20:56] <Garbee> It is a very fine maze of technology that has been created, we are trying to focus on the core stuff.
# [20:56] <Unitron> but users can post tutorials about Java and Flash?
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# [20:56] <Unitron> on site?
# [20:56] <Garbee> Nope.
# [20:56] <Garbee> Not on those two techs.
# [20:56] <Unitron> why :(
# [20:57] <Garbee> They are out of the scope and will be removed.
# [20:57] <Garbee> They aren't core standards in the first place.
# [20:57] <Garbee> They are proprietary technologies developed by specific companies only.
# [20:57] <Unitron> I do not like
# [20:58] <Unitron> Unity too proprietory :(
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# [20:59] <Garbee> If it is really proprietary then it probably won't be accepted for inclusion. But, I will still do some more research when I can just to make sure.
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# [20:59] <Unitron> ok
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# [20:59] <Garbee> You need to understand that we are trying to make the documentation as easy to organize and keep updated as possible. Bringing in so much extra stuff makes it unmanageable.
# [21:00] <Unitron> Why u can say about it? http://int3.github.com/doppio/about.html
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# [21:03] <Unitron> what u can say...
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# [21:06] <Garbee> Nothing. I have no idea what that is.
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# [21:06] <fr0zenice> I'd say it's out of scope for documentation / tutorials. Maybe worth a mention, somewhere.
# [21:07] <Garbee> We don't need a library roundup that is inclusive in any way.
# [21:07] <Garbee> What we should do is have somewhere where we mention major projects that are highly supported if we are to do it.
# [21:07] <Garbee> I still don't think that would fall under it.
# [21:08] <ravenzz> it doesn't at all :)
# [21:09] <ravenzz> https://github.com/popular/starred
# [21:10] <Unitron> This is needed to run Java-scripts without Java plugin.
# [21:10] <ravenzz> but it is out of topic
# [21:10] <Unitron> Java is "translated" into Javascript.
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# [21:11] <ravenzz> I understood it
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# [21:13] <Unitron> https://github.com/nurv/BicaVM too do it
# [21:14] <ravenzz> but it has nothing to do with documentation and web standards :)
# [21:14] <Unitron> http://www.surf-the-edge.com/2011/11/15/bicavm-jvm-in-javascript-why/
# [21:14] <ravenzz> I am not saying that it could be a valuable and useful project, but it is not related to webplatform.org
# [21:15] <ravenzz> people who is looking for a javascript implementation of the jvm can google it
# [21:15] <fr0zenice> Unitron: As awesome as these may be, it is not part of what webplatform.org is trying to document.
# [21:16] <Unitron> its open alternative to proprietary soft
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# [21:18] <fr0zenice> That's nice and I personally like that idea, but still not a standard WPD is trying to cover.
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# [21:21] <Unitron> thx for answers
# [21:21] <Unitron> bb
# [21:21] <Unitron> night
# [21:21] <ravenzz> you're welcome
# [21:21] <fr0zenice> bye
# [21:21] <ravenzz> night
# [21:21] <Unitron> bb Gabree too
# [21:21] <Unitron> b!
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# [21:43] <HammHetfield> hello people, I'm browsing the wiki and can't seem to find any information related to the various standards/specs/recommendation such as wcag opquast and such
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# [21:43] <HammHetfield> did I miss something, has this topic being omitted on purpose for some reason or is it just not there yet, and in that case where would it be best for me to get started adding stuff ? I'm thinking under Concepts but I'm not sure
# [21:45] <eighty4> HammHetfield: why not include it?
# [21:45] <HammHetfield> eighty4: I'd like to, I'm just checking first to make sure it's not omitted on purpose or if I simply didn't find it
# [21:45] <HammHetfield> if it's just missing, I'll gladly add it :D
# [21:46] <eighty4> HammHetfield: sorry, answered your first line before reading the second :)
# [21:46] <HammHetfield> HA-HA
# [21:46] <HammHetfield> l2read
# [21:46] <HammHetfield> long time no see btw, hi :)
# [21:47] <fr0zenice> never heard of opquast
# [21:47] <eighty4> It is, been rather buzy at work
# [21:47] <HammHetfield> fr0zenice: most people online haven't, unfortunately, it's a french project and for some reason they didn't bother to translate it (or make it easy to translate for willing people)
# [21:47] <eighty4> But to answer your question. I'm not sure if it's been left out, not yet included or what. But hang around and someone will probably know
# [21:48] <Garbee> HammHetfield, What does it do?
# [21:48] <fr0zenice> at least WCAG seems like something that could be included
# [21:48] <fr0zenice> might be a good question for the Q&A
# [21:48] <eighty4> if it's on w3 it should in, no?
# [21:49] <fr0zenice> XHTML2 is on W3, too :p
# [21:49] <HammHetfield> it's a big list of recommendation and guidelines, organized by topics from accessibility to usability, SEO and security, it's really broad, made by a w3c-like structure (just with french-speaking people)
# [21:50] <eighty4> fr0zenice: yes well… that's unfortunate
# [21:51] <HammHetfield> like the #1 item is about alt attributes on images, #4 is about not forcing page refresh or redirect on the client side, #6 about having explicit date formats
# [21:51] <HammHetfield> etc etc very very broad, but it'd be nice to give it some exposure and maybe a place to get it translated since the makers didn't create such place, at least for now
# [21:52] <fr0zenice> I think we don't need to include something, ust because it is on w3 or another steward's site. On the other hand, w3 has some good content. WCAG may be worth adding in some depth.
# [21:52] <fr0zenice> *just
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# [21:53] <@paul_irish> HammHetfield: what sort of content do you want to see?
# [21:53] * @paul_irish has never heard of opquast
# [21:53] <@paul_irish> looks weird.
# [21:54] <HammHetfield> paul_irish: not sure I completely understand the question, I was just a little confused to not see anything about the various standards and guidelines in the wiki
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# [21:54] <@paul_irish> the goal of the site is to provide practical information and documentation for web developers
# [21:55] <HammHetfield> well wouldn't a list and description of information they can use practical information ?
# [21:55] <@paul_irish> it's not to catalogue various specifications, so that would be why you dont get a listing of the various published specs
# [21:55] <HammHetfield> like "hey if you wonder about accessibility, you should look at the WCAG website"
# [21:55] <HammHetfield> okay
# [21:55] <@paul_irish> yes i think that would be great on webplatform
# [21:56] * HammHetfield must be misunderstanding 1 out of 2 sentences
# [21:56] <@paul_irish> Here's how to address accessibility. go here, ehre, here, here and try to follow these
# [21:56] <@paul_irish> i think the difference is.. the goal is accessibility
# [21:56] <@paul_irish> rather than the goal being coverage of wcag
# [21:57] <@paul_irish> know what i mean?
# [21:57] <HammHetfield> yes, at the same time, if we had this discussion in a parallel universe where there's already a page about opquast, or any other standard/Recommendation one doesn't know about, I wouldn't have had to explain what it is
# [21:58] <HammHetfield> specs and all that are a big part of frontend devs' lives, at least knowing what X is about or what Y intends to do seems like valuable information
# [21:58] <HammHetfield> I understand if that's out of the scope of the wiki or something, that's exactly why I asked before editing stuff
# [21:59] <@paul_irish> i think you and i disagree about how relevant specs are to frontend developers :)
# [21:59] <@paul_irish> but anyway
# [21:59] <fr0zenice> I guess one could add a list of specs / other resources (link + 1 sentence summary maybe) to http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/Accessibility
# [21:59] <ConnorMontgomery> fr0zenice: i like that idea
# [21:59] <@paul_irish> ++
# [22:00] <@paul_irish> HammHetfield: i'm just shooting for contextualizing relevant documents that are helpful for developers within their goals
# [22:01] <HammHetfield> very well :)
# [22:01] <@paul_irish> i think this existing Accessibility page does a great job of highlighting WCAG and WAI within the topic
# [22:01] <@paul_irish> and feel free to edit the page
# [22:01] <@paul_irish> to point to other useful resources
# [22:02] <HammHetfield> alright so I have another question
# [22:02] <@paul_irish> HammHetfield: also ZNC stole your irc real name. how mean
# [22:02] <HammHetfield> just so I can grasp better the content that's expected to be in the wiki
# [22:02] <HammHetfield> in the accessibility article ideas, there's "writing for an accessible web"
# [22:03] <HammHetfield> would it be valuable information to present tools/plugins/libs/whatevers that enable publishers/site builders to write accessible content within CMSes for instance ?
# [22:03] <@paul_irish> yesss
# [22:03] <HammHetfield> not always easy to find a CMS that enables one to change the title attr of a link, or even just set alt of an image
# [22:04] <@paul_irish> i think that's hugely useful and i dont know where that sort of content is today
# [22:04] <HammHetfield> I looked for it… couldn't find it
# [22:04] <@paul_irish> :) ya
# [22:04] <HammHetfield> I see
# [22:04] <HammHetfield> so focus is on to-the-point ready to use information
# [22:05] <HammHetfield> rather that… documenting the ecosystem
# [22:05] <HammHetfield> than*
# [22:05] <eighty4> hammhetfielf: drupal does all that
# [22:06] <HammHetfield> eighty4: that's cool if you get to pick the CMS from the beginning
# [22:07] <Garbee> HammHetfield, Also as far as listing tools go, I'm creating a dev tools section which would be perfect for that kind of content. It isn't open for regular editing yet though since we still have a few things to work out.
# [22:07] <@paul_irish> Garbee: this would be more CMS and js libraries stuff
# [22:07] <Garbee> It should be open for regular editing early next week.
# [22:07] <HammHetfield> okay
# [22:07] <@paul_irish> less of tools for being a better developer
# [22:07] <Garbee> Oh, I was referring to his accessibility stuff.
# [22:07] <eighty4> hammhetfield: just in case you were looking for a good cms supporting it :)
# [22:07] <Garbee> Hadn't hit CMS yet in the log.
# [22:07] <@paul_irish> yeah i know
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# [22:09] <Garbee> Oh, I see what is being said after re-reading a few times now.
# [22:10] <HammHetfield> so if I understand correctly ( /me really doesn't want to add garbage to the wiki) a page about style guides with a list of the mainstream ones along with short introduction and description of each would be useless, right ?
# [22:10] <Garbee> Style Guides as in?
# [22:10] <Garbee> I have seen many.
# [22:11] <HammHetfield> well yeah, like what are they, what's the point, and a list of the most common ones
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# [22:11] <HammHetfield> there's a page that's prepared for JS libraries
# [22:12] <Garbee> Yea, a page somewhere for code styles would be useful. The only real question is where.
# [22:12] <HammHetfield> not sure if my questions sound like critique or anything, I'm just asking so I understand better what's valuable and what isn't
# [22:12] <HammHetfield> so I don't waste my time creating something for nothing, and someone's time to check it as garbage
# [22:12] <Garbee> HammHetfield, Yea, we are still trying to figure out the lines as well ourselves tbh.
# [22:13] <HammHetfield> Garbee: http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/javascript under "Other concepts"
# [22:13] <Garbee> If you are really concerned, write up a quick draft or outline and either throw it into the mailing list or ask us in here and we can give feedback without too much effort being put in up front.
# [22:14] <HammHetfield> yeah I'll do that :)
# [22:14] <Garbee> Style guides aren't quite libraries, *but* they are still super useful to have on projects.
# [22:14] <Garbee> It has even been debated on the HTML5BP to get one.
# [22:14] <Garbee> (By get one I mean a certain file added to tell text editors to enforce it.)
# [22:14] <Garbee> So, that is useful. I'm thinking it might be best place under the tutorials in some way.
# [22:15] <HammHetfield> "Tutorials -- Step-by-step instructions for building a sample application or demonstrating a feature."
# [22:15] <HammHetfield> doesn't sound like it to me, would probably seem better under...
# [22:15] <HammHetfield> Concepts maybe : "Concepts -- Provides an overview of a feature or API."
# [22:16] <HammHetfield> not really either
# [22:16] <Garbee> Perhaps under programming here have a Style Guide page linked. http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/concepts
# [22:16] <Garbee> It is the concept of how to style code in a uniform way.
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# [22:16] <HammHetfield> true
# [22:16] <Garbee> Code is what we work with in programming.
# [22:17] <Garbee> So I think it fits best there for now.
# [22:17] <Garbee> If later we decide it should go elsewhere, we can just move it with no real problem.
# [22:17] <phwd> On http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/concepts page is there supposed to be a page under "One Web"? I cannot seem to see it
# [22:17] <HammHetfield> okay
# [22:17] <HammHetfield> I'll add that
# [22:17] <Garbee> phwd, No.
# [22:17] <Garbee> I'm confused myself.
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# [22:21] <eighty4> am i wrong in thinking there should be a mention of mobile first on that page as well?
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# [22:22] <HammHetfield> maybe a "DRY" in the programming section as well
# [22:22] <HammHetfield> I know this confused me for a while, until someone finally explained to me what it means
# [22:22] <@paul_irish> yeah in concepts/programming or something
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# [22:27] <Garbee> DRY is a very common thing that devs do. I think it should get a mention somewhere.
# [22:28] <Garbee> Net Tuts has a great article on it. I might email them and see if they would allow us to copy it in. Otherwise we can just write our own stuff up for it.
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# [22:40] <ctoveloz[BR]> body { height: 6425,196850394px; }
# [22:40] <ctoveloz[BR]> :~~
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# [22:43] <Garbee> ctoveloz[BR], What was that for?
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# [22:55] <alvincrespo> hey everyone
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# [22:55] <alvincrespo> I was curious if anyone had any best practices tips for iphone web development, in particular with how to deal with images?
# [22:58] <HammHetfield> so what do you guys think ? http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/concepts/programming/style_guides
# [22:58] * HammHetfield doesn't know everything about the subject, far from that
# [22:58] <_cheney> i would link you here alvincrespo but it's not really filled out http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/css/mediaqueries
# [22:59] <Garbee> HammHetfield, Did you put those footnotes in yourself?
# [22:59] <HammHetfield> you mean the references ? yes
# [22:59] <fr0zenice> he's a pro :)
# [22:59] <Garbee> Apparently.
# [22:59] <HammHetfield> I just RTFM
# [22:59] <Garbee> It threw me off, I thought it was copied.
# [22:59] <fr0zenice> like a pro.
# [22:59] <Garbee> HammHetfield, I do, I'm still too lazy to do proper footnotes.
# [22:59] <fr0zenice> hopefully you stick around HammHetfield
# [23:00] <HammHetfield> haha
# [23:00] <HammHetfield> glad to hear that
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# [23:00] <alvincrespo> ok, sounds good - I'm just curious if there is any information on it - dealing with images?
# [23:00] <HammHetfield> I think I will, seems like the best place to give back to the community
# [23:00] <alvincrespo> ill take a look around
# [23:01] <HammHetfield> alvincrespo: maybe try to be a little more specific about your question
# [23:01] <_cheney> here's a nice article alvincrespo http://css-tricks.com/which-responsive-images-solution-should-you-use/
# [23:01] <HammHetfield> "dealing with images" is really bague
# [23:01] <HammHetfield> vague*
# [23:01] <alvincrespo> Yeah, sorry. I'm just trying to get an overall or broad picture of what people should be aware of and how to deal with these issues.
# [23:02] <fr0zenice> hmm, that "Google HTML/CSS Style Guide" XSL doesn't work in my FF
# [23:02] <alvincrespo> I'm writing about how to manage assets with iphone web apps, and just wanted to get a good feel from the community
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# [23:03] <alvincrespo> @_cheney - thanks, that article is awesome. I should have checked css tricks :)
# [23:04] <_cheney> welcome
# [23:05] <fr0zenice> anyone else getting just text and not a transformed xml @ http://google-styleguide.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/htmlcssguide.xml in firefox?
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# [23:08] <_cheney> looks the same in chrome & firefox to me
# [23:08] <fr0zenice> hmm
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# [23:10] <HammHetfield> maybe it'd be nice to have some text-transform: capitalize on #firstHeading , looks weird to have lower case page titles
# [23:10] <HammHetfield> just a quick thought
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# [23:21] <fr0zenice> HammHetfield: I converted it to Concept_Page Template, there is now a form when you click edit (don't be afraid of it!). Amongst others there is a field to put a custom page title. If you want that form from the beginning, please use http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/WPD:New_Page
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# [23:22] <HammHetfield> fr0zenice: you converted "it" what ?
# [23:22] <fr0zenice> heh, the docs use somthing called semantic forms, that's the form when you click edit now
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# [23:23] <fr0zenice> it makes it easy to tag articles and give them other semantic information, so they can be properly found / automatically listed somewhere
# [23:23] <HammHetfield> okay
# [23:23] <fr0zenice> there are several templates, check the WPD:New_Page link for them
# [23:23] <HammHetfield> but there's still the lower case title, looks weird to me
# [23:23] <HammHetfield> http://d.pr/i/yh6B
# [23:23] <HammHetfield> the title with yellow border-bottom
# [23:24] <fr0zenice> yeah that's a known 'bug'
# [23:24] <HammHetfield> okay
# [23:24] <HammHetfield> I'll try to stop thinking about it until it's fixed then :D
# [23:25] <HammHetfield> so pages shouldn't be created by just linking to them and then filling in the content ?
# [23:25] <fr0zenice> feel free to check out the form, it can get more complicated with other templates, for example html elements have a compatibility table that you cann fill out in the form
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# [23:25] <HammHetfield> I should use the New_Page thing ?
# [23:25] <fr0zenice> yes
# [23:26] <HammHetfield> okay
# [23:26] <fr0zenice> ideally we have every article using such a template
# [23:27] <fr0zenice> well, I guess one exception is the WPD: namespace, there the templates aren't used
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# [23:27] <fr0zenice> it's about meta-stuff, so semantic information makes no sense there
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# [23:28] <fr0zenice> if you run into problems whilst editing, feel free to ask, there are still some bugs that need to be ironed out, too :)
# [23:29] <HammHetfield> so if I wanted to make a page about Content Research to go in Concepts/Information Architecture I should create a Concept Page, right ?
# [23:29] <HammHetfield> according to the url, looks like it yeah
# [23:29] <fr0zenice> yeah
# [23:30] <fr0zenice> the most tempaltes seem to be for API references
# [23:30] <fr0zenice> *templates
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# [23:35] <HammHetfield> ok
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# [23:46] <fabuloso_> @hammHefield
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# [23:46] <fabuloso_> it looks fine
# [23:46] <fabuloso_> maybe put examples
# [23:47] <fabuloso_> under naming conventions to make it dead obvious
# [23:47] <fabuloso_> though it is already...heh
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# [23:53] <HammHetfield> fabuloso_: I tried to keep it short, expecting other languages and stuff, would make the page quite lengthy to include an example long enough to show the differences and stuff
# [23:53] <HammHetfield> but it's not my page, I just started it, anyone's free to add that
# [23:53] <Garbee> Yea, we shouldn't need examples. Just one.
# [23:53] <fabuloso_> member:identifier:hammhetfield gotcha
# [23:54] <Garbee> We just need one example to display the difference in legibility of code.
# [23:54] <Garbee> Beyond that it is just wasting space imho.
# [23:54] <fabuloso_> i figured that too @garbee
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# [23:54] <fabuloso_> looking good then
# [23:54] <Garbee> We actually need to come up with a style guide for the Docs code samples.
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# [23:54] <HammHetfield> haha
# [23:54] <HammHetfield> pick one from the page :p
# [23:55] <Garbee> Yea, we are going to look into a few well known ones and figure something out.
# [23:55] <Garbee> I was reading over the style guide for the wiki itself and noticed no code style guidelines.
# [23:55] <Garbee> Then you brought it up just a while ago.
# [23:56] <Garbee> So I'm probably going to make that a higher priority for myself to try and get some organized.
# [23:56] <HammHetfield> now I'm wondering if smacss, oocss, bemcss, yandex and all that should be in the style guide
# [23:56] <Garbee> smacss? WTF?
# [23:56] * HammHetfield feels like an alien
# [23:56] <HammHetfield> nobody knows opquast, smacss
# [23:56] <eighty4> HammHetfield: if including that the step to less scss compass isn't big
# [23:57] <Garbee> I'm not sure if we want to get in that level of detail with stuff outside of tutorials. But it is worth discussing.
# [23:57] <eighty4> less have greatly speed up my css writing
# [23:58] <Garbee> LESS is awesome.
# [23:58] <HammHetfield> switched to scss few weeks ago
# [23:58] <HammHetfield> not bad either
# [23:58] <Garbee> I think even docing that though is out of scope. Might be worth having a page listing known preprocessors though.
# [23:58] <Garbee> For advanced devs to reference.
# [23:58] <Garbee> Oh, or we could make it a sub-part of the Dev Tools...
# [23:58] <HammHetfield> going to make the DB explode with the JS section
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# [23:59] <eighty4> :)
# [23:59] <Garbee> Just make sure it is raw JS and not using any frameworks.
# [23:59] <HammHetfield> from Go to Opa, that new one from microsoft, coffee script,
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# [23:59] <HammHetfield> and meteor, and future ones
# [23:59] <HammHetfield> would be huuuuuuuuuge
# [23:59] <Garbee> HammHetfield, What JS style do you prefer to do your stuff in?
# [23:59] <fabuloso_> yea..scss and the preprocessor looks tempting..hopefully add it the workflow man
# Session Close: Sun Oct 14 00:00:00 2012

The end :)