/irc-logs / freenode / #webplatform / 2012-10-14 / end

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# Session Start: Sun Oct 14 00:00:00 2012
# Session Ident: #webplatform
# [00:00] <Garbee> fabuloso_, Workflow for what?
# [00:00] <fabuloso_> for using scss and css pre processors
# [00:00] <HammHetfield> Garbee: I have yet to have a definitive opinion on the topic
# [00:00] <fabuloso_> for web design work
# [00:00] <Garbee> Oh ok.
# [00:00] <Garbee> For a sec I thought you meant a workflow section on the Docs.
# [00:00] <fabuloso_> sorry man..
# [00:00] <HammHetfield> I got my "own" convention over time, and discovered style guides just recently
# [00:01] * HammHetfield is a spec nerd
# [00:01] <Garbee> fabuloso_, It is fine. I was just confused.
# [00:01] <fabuloso_> gotcha
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# [00:01] <Garbee> HammHetfield, Paul mentioned this one to me earlier: https://github.com/rwldrn/idiomatic.js/
# [00:01] <fr0zenice> that one is quire lengthy
# [00:01] <fr0zenice> *quite
# [00:01] <HammHetfield> first one of the list of the page I started about style guides :p
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# [00:02] <Garbee> I would try to use that one for now for sample JS code until we discuss and decide which to chose.
# [00:02] <HammHetfield> but, unlike addy osmani, I find it difficult to understand
# [00:02] <Garbee> Yea, any style guide we do would need to be watered down I think.
# [00:02] <HammHetfield> I'd rather see "text-based" rules with examples, rather than examples with Good/Bad comments
# [00:03] <Garbee> Yea, it would be text based with some demo snippets to show the layout.
# [00:03] <fr0zenice> the jQuery one looks mostly like idiomatic.js, but is much shorter
# [00:03] <Garbee> Doing it all in code/comments is a little extreme.
# [00:03] <HammHetfield> and better explained IMO
# [00:03] <HammHetfield> I'd go with jQuery's
# [00:03] <HammHetfield> if I had to pick some temporary one right now
# [00:04] <fr0zenice> would say so, too
# [00:04] <Garbee> Then go with that, but don't actually code in jquery. ;)
# [00:04] <HammHetfield> lol
# [00:04] <fr0zenice> ^^
# [00:04] <HammHetfield> <flamewar>
# [00:04] <HammHetfield> keep going
# [00:04] <Garbee> Oh, there is no flamewar, it is just done.
# [00:04] * eighty4 slowly backs away
# [00:04] <HammHetfield> disappointing but alright
# [00:04] <HammHetfield> </flamewar>
# [00:04] <Garbee> They apparently are having some talk if jquery is going to have a place in the docs. I have seen some stuff relating to it floating around.
# [00:05] <Garbee> I'm personally going to push for it not to happen actually if it comes up for discussion from what I'm thinking at this moment.
# [00:05] <HammHetfield> if documenting one, all libs would eventually be documented at some point
# [00:05] <Garbee> Exactly.
# [00:05] <HammHetfield> not sure that'd really be useful
# [00:05] <Garbee> I don't want to fall into that kind of a thing.
# [00:06] <HammHetfield> maybe just keep it to 1-page tutorials
# [00:06] <Garbee> jQuery should be treated like every other framework. No major documentation on WPD on it.
# [00:06] <HammHetfield> kind of like the TodoMVC thing
# [00:06] <HammHetfield> but in getting-started format instead of example
# [00:06] <HammHetfield> that could be nice, but um… yeah
# [00:06] <Garbee> Nah. It would just be in a list of trusted JS frameworks imo. Just like anything else would be treated.
# [00:07] <HammHetfield> if someone decides to document dojo or yui… -_-"
# [00:07] <HammHetfield> that'd make lengthy pages, mostly just copy-paste from official docs
# [00:07] <eighty4> it's fairly good documentet on their site
# [00:07] <eighty4> and any attempt at doing it "better" should be done on their site
# [00:07] <HammHetfield> well the purpose of the website is to have 1 place for all documentation
# [00:07] <Garbee> HammHetfield, Copy and paste is strong words. Use with very much caution.
# [00:08] <Garbee> are strong words*
# [00:08] <HammHetfield> so it would kind of make sense to have such a mainstream framework documented there...
# [00:08] <eighty4> HammHetfield: right, but doing it for JS would be one thing.
# [00:08] <HammHetfield> at the same time… well jQuery has its own doc...
# [00:08] <Garbee> I wouldn't go as far as all documentation.
# [00:09] <fr0zenice> 1 place for all documentation for the standards, not the libraries
# [00:10] <HammHetfield> good point
# [00:10] <Garbee> Paul stated earlier it is one place "to provide practical information and documentation for web developers." I think yes jQuery fits into this for most devs, but some do prefer other frameworks.
# [00:10] <Garbee> Docing one just means inviting others.
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# [00:10] <Garbee> Just like docing server-side tech will get us with an unmanageable mess, I think libraries could cause the same effect.
# [00:11] <HammHetfield> now I wonder why there is a Information Architecture section in the Concepts page
# [00:11] <fr0zenice> what fits is the general notion, that there are libraries to make your life easier, with a list
# [00:11] <HammHetfield> like… doesn't really think it's practical information and doc for web developers
# [00:12] <Garbee> fr0zenice, Yea. Honestly, I'm thinking it might serve best as a subsection or sub-page of the Dev Tools.
# [00:13] <Garbee> Since they are things Devs use to make their (our) lives easier.
# [00:13] <fr0zenice> I guess they can be viewed as "tools", yeah.
# [00:13] <eighty4> but where to draw that line? If LESS might be included, shouldn't sublime text 2 also be included?
# [00:14] <eighty4> or at least xdebug
# [00:14] <HammHetfield> yeah a dev tools could easily list preprocessors, softwares, online services
# [00:14] <Garbee> I'd say they can fall under tools since it is something that aids you. That is exactly what a tool does.
# [00:14] <Garbee> the fact that it is a library or preprocessor is just getting into the specific categorization.
# [00:15] <fr0zenice> right
# [00:15] <Garbee> I'm going to mock the page up and shoot out to the Mailing List asking for more input on it before it is opened for public editing.
# [00:15] <eighty4> right, but the section would get overwhelmingly large
# [00:15] <Garbee> Just to figure out what the exact scope of the section should be.
# [00:15] <Garbee> eighty4, I got tricks for handling that.
# [00:15] <HammHetfield> at the same time, I'd expect content to get more and more precise/specific as people start participating
# [00:16] <eighty4> HammHetfield: true
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# [00:16] <eighty4> I'd love a section about sublime text 2 packages :)
# [00:16] <Garbee> HammHetfield, That is just it. The DevTools section is just a general overview of *widely* supported tools. It will also go into details and specific tutorials on using developer tools in a browser (such as Google Chrome and Firefox.)
# [00:16] <HammHetfield> once JS APIs are covered, CSS & html specs are covered… either it'll just be updating, or it'll become a huge specific wikipédia with information about everything
# [00:17] <Garbee> eighty4, No. That is *way* out of scope.
# [00:17] <Garbee> But, things are in the works on that front...
# [00:17] <eighty4> :)
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# [00:17] <Garbee> (just somewhere else. More details in a few weeks.)
# [00:17] <fr0zenice> HammHetfield: there's still /tutorials :)
# [00:18] <HammHetfield> for instance, I didn't notice any section about IE bugs and fixes
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# [00:19] <HammHetfield> at least to me, that totally qualifies as practical documentation
# [00:19] <fr0zenice> some of those are in compatibility notes, like http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/html/elements/p#Compatibility_Notes
# [00:19] <HammHetfield> especially stuff I have a hard time finding when I need them
# [00:20] <HammHetfield> stuff like hasLayout or the fixed line-height for buttons in FF etc etc
# [00:20] <HammHetfield> all these quirks and oddities of browsers
# [00:20] <Garbee> Some have even expressed the thought that once it is all documented, the site could get involved in standards creation.
# [00:20] <Garbee> That is well into the future though.
# [00:21] <fr0zenice> Web 3.0 ^^
# [00:21] <Garbee> HammHetfield, They are trying to document oddities like that.
# [00:21] <Garbee> Like in HTML for the P element.
# [00:21] <Garbee> It has a block pointing out an IE8 quirk with tables.
# [00:21] <HammHetfield> don't know if that's planned, but it'd be awesome to have some kind of platform allowing people to create tests
# [00:21] <Garbee> HammHetfield, You mean like jsfiddle?
# [00:21] <HammHetfield> Garbee: no
# [00:22] <HammHetfield> it's an idea I had a while ago to make some community-generated caniuse
# [00:22] <fr0zenice> Garbee: I already wrote that :D
# [00:22] <Garbee> HammHetfield, I'm not sure I understand the "tests" you would want.
# [00:22] <HammHetfield> so I could create a test with markup + a screenshot of what it's supposed to look like
# [00:22] <Garbee> fr0zenice, Wrote what?
# [00:22] <fr0zenice> the P IE quirk
# [00:22] <Garbee> Oh. I know, it was an awesome addition.
# [00:23] <HammHetfield> then anybody can open that test page and click a button to say if it's behaving as expected in their browser
# [00:23] <Garbee> HammHetfield, Ah things like that.
# [00:23] <HammHetfield> kind of like unit testing, except it's based on user input
# [00:23] <fr0zenice> crowd testing :o
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# [00:24] <HammHetfield> I especially thought about that for compatibility for email clients and mobile phones/browsers
# [00:24] <Garbee> HammHetfield, That would be quite complicated if even possible.
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# [00:24] <HammHetfield> those are just impossible to test for a limited set of people, and anybody willing to contribute would be able to fire up a page, and say whether or not it works properly
# [00:24] <HammHetfield> from their phone, by email, in their browser, in IE or whatever
# [00:25] <Garbee> Well, we could figure out a way to do some PHP to pass information to the test page.
# [00:25] <Garbee> Flexbox is something that has caught my eye for docing too...
# [00:25] <HammHetfield> or you can just pre-fill some form based on UA and let user change them if needed
# [00:25] <eighty4> HammHetfield: sounds doable if I understand what you want
# [00:25] <HammHetfield> eighty4: oh yeah it is doable
# [00:26] <ravenzz> do it then
# [00:26] <HammHetfield> only reason I didn't do it myself already is that I wouldn't have any community to contribute
# [00:26] <HammHetfield> so I'd be doing it all by myself, so the platform itself becomes moot
# [00:26] <ravenzz> github it there for you
# [00:26] <HammHetfield> still not the problem
# [00:26] <Garbee> Well, the problem is passing things between subdomains.
# [00:27] <Garbee> I think.
# [00:27] <eighty4> Garbee: not sure I follow.
# [00:27] <HammHetfield> me neither...
# [00:27] <eighty4> why would subdomains be a problem?
# [00:27] <Garbee> You would need to pass content from within mediawiki based on that input and then send it over to a subdomain that has no direct connection to the mediawiki install.
# [00:27] <Garbee> I think I'm overthinking the solution.
# [00:27] <eighty4> still not following at all :/
# [00:27] <Garbee> ^^for doing group testing like that from within WPD.
# [00:27] <HammHetfield> does mediawiki support frames ?
# [00:28] <Garbee> It should support them.
# [00:28] <HammHetfield> then tests could be done from anywhere/any website and be included in there
# [00:28] <Garbee> I think there are security concerns in this case though.
# [00:28] <eighty4> Garbee: right you're talking about implementing it direktly into WPD. But that can't be a problem.
# [00:28] <eighty4> it must be solvable
# [00:28] <HammHetfield> of course it is :D
# [00:29] <Garbee> eighty4, Yea. I think I'm just overthinking it.
# [00:29] <eighty4> If HammHetfield (possibly with help) coded it someone would be able to include it.
# [00:29] <HammHetfield> eighty4: yeah that's what it looks like
# [00:30] <HammHetfield> crowd testing is probably the best definition for it
# [00:30] <HammHetfield> I'll just give it a go
# [00:30] <Garbee> Nah. Crowdsourcing a test.
# [00:30] <eighty4> I'm thinking "image" <--- this is what it should look like. "html" <--- is it looking like this, Possibility to overlay the image. And such futures.
# [00:30] <HammHetfield> right
# [00:30] <fr0zenice> there's already "crowdsource testing"
# [00:30] <HammHetfield> eighty4: yeah, doesn't need to be any simpler
# [00:31] <Garbee> See, I see stuff like that and I can only think it will end up leading to doing normal support which most people seem to not want to do here.
# [00:31] <eighty4> HammHetfield: Possibliy with the option to upload your result?
# [00:32] <HammHetfield> then a simple yes/no buttons, and ability to change your browser/device information
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# [00:32] <HammHetfield> Garbee: normal support to what ?
# [00:32] <eighty4> might be a bit OT atm :/. But I'd love to have that at work.
# [00:32] <Garbee> I think changing browser/device info wouldn't be needed. It does nothing unless you are asking for device specific content.
# [00:32] <Garbee> The rendering is still done on the same engine as the browser.
# [00:33] <Garbee> So you really gain nothing with that type of system for testing an engine.
# [00:33] <Garbee> HammHetfield, Normal support for just any old issue people seem to have.
# [00:33] <eighty4> HammHetfield: don't forget to include browser info when people submit their yes/no
# [00:33] <Garbee> I think I need to see a prototype to really understand it thought. All I'm thinking is a jsfiddle clone at this point.
# [00:34] <HammHetfield> Garbee: faaaaar from that
# [00:34] <Garbee> With added features to simply submit output.
# [00:34] <HammHetfield> Garbee: I'll work on a prototype
# [00:34] <ravenzz> actually you could build it on top of jsfiddle I think, the user uploads the image and provide the jsfiddle link
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# [00:35] <eighty4> good evening Ordona
# [00:35] <ravenzz> you will embed the full screen version of the fiddle
# [00:35] <HammHetfield> meh
# [00:35] <ravenzz> + image
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# [00:35] <Ordona> Evening eighty4
# [00:35] <fr0zenice> I guess uploading a image adds too much complexity
# [00:35] <Garbee> HammHetfield, Ok, you want to dynamically give markup/styles/js to a user to run and then submit their output. jsfiddle does *exactly* that, except the image upload part.
# [00:35] <HammHetfield> Garbee: don't want them to submit their output
# [00:35] <Garbee> er, output submission. in this case a grab of the viewport.
# [00:36] <HammHetfield> I just want them to say whether or not what they see is what they should see
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# [00:36] <Garbee> HammHetfield, Then this is really just replicating jsfiddle.
# [00:36] <Garbee> And I also think I have seen this kind of stuff before.
# [00:36] <HammHetfield> if so, then it's working properly, if not, then we store that feature X is broken on Y setup
# [00:36] <HammHetfield> nothing like jsfiddle
# [00:36] <Garbee> HammHetfield, No. Won't really be useful.
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# [00:36] <Garbee> People can have plugins that affect things.
# [00:37] <HammHetfield> like <span style="color: red;">Some text</span> and an image of "some text" written in red
# [00:37] <Garbee> So you would need to check for plugins and DB those as well, otherwise, the entire setup is moot.
# [00:37] <fr0zenice> throw in some statistical algorithms
# [00:37] <ravenzz> fr0zenice <HammHetfield> so I could create a test with markup + a screenshot of what it's supposed to look like ?
# [00:37] <HammHetfield> and if it doesn't look like that, then there's something broken
# [00:37] <Garbee> OK hold up.
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# [00:37] <Garbee> Lets move this to #webplatform-offtopic
# [00:37] <fr0zenice> good plan ^^
# [00:38] <fr0zenice> and yes ravenzz, I think
# [00:40] <ravenzz> that's pretty easy to implement, plus people can still write testcases on jsfiddle which is the most important thing
# [00:41] <fr0zenice> feel free to join us in #webplatform-offtopic
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# [00:43] <ravenzz> fr0zenice next time :) I have to go
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# [00:43] <ravenzz> bye all
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# [01:16] <znowi> check out the logo on this page :) http://visualsupply.co/vscokeys
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# [01:17] <Garbee> so?
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# [01:19] <znowi> thought it was funny how it matches the webplatform
# [01:20] <@paul_irish> ConnorMontgomery: wanna do anything for MWTF this year?
# [01:22] <ConnorMontgomery> paul_irish yes!
# [01:22] <Garbee> znowi, Probably could have been done by the same company.
# [01:22] <Garbee> Wait, no...
# [01:22] <Garbee> meh, whatever. The logo isn't important.
# [01:23] <ConnorMontgomery> paul_irish anything in particular in mind?
# [01:23] <@paul_irish> ConnorMontgomery: nope :)
# [01:23] <Garbee> What is MWTF?
# [01:24] <@paul_irish> http://movethewebforward.org/
# [01:24] <ConnorMontgomery> *MTWF
# [01:24] <Garbee> Oh that.
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# [01:25] <Garbee> Updating "Dig Deep" to include helping out on webplatform.org might not be a bad idea...
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# [01:25] <ConnorMontgomery> I'm on it
# [01:25] <Garbee> Thank you! :D
# [01:26] <ConnorMontgomery> :)
# [01:26] <Garbee> I know I could do a PR but I'm just 1) lazy, 2) busy.
# [01:26] <ConnorMontgomery> no worries at all
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# [01:28] <Garbee> Also, we need more support for Flexbox. But I think that is out of what MTWF can do.
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# [01:57] <Garbee> Great question just got approved (sorry, didn't think to check the mod filter.) http://talk.webplatform.org/forums/index.php/2195/what-is-the-best-way-to-practice-html-coding
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# [01:59] <pzich> I'd say your best bet is by trying to make a particular type of page, maybe by trying to reproduce someone elses?
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# [01:59] <@paul_irish> support for new flexbox is now in all browsers
# [01:59] <@paul_irish> all being ie10+
# [02:00] <Garbee> Um, Chrome and Firefox have flex support?
# [02:00] <@paul_irish> they had it first
# [02:00] <pzich> yeah, I've definitely used it in Chrome
# [02:00] <Garbee> I know IE had it first. But didn't know the others have gotten it.
# [02:00] <Garbee> Ok then, cool
# [02:00] <Garbee> I need to learn flexbox more.
# [02:00] <Garbee> It looks so cool.
# [02:00] <@paul_irish> IE had grid in IE10 platform preview X first
# [02:01] <Garbee> Plus I love the experimental position: sticky; rule. ;)
# [02:01] <@paul_irish> the impl for new flexbox was in chrome before it was anywhere else
# [02:01] <Garbee> Nice. Then I need to make a note to play with it and document my findings.
# [02:02] <Garbee> I really like the look of that system over using the current grid structures... Perhaps even a Bootstrap port to use Flexbox would be in order?
# [02:02] <Garbee> But, that is getting pretty offtopic.
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# [02:12] <Garbee> Is anyone or do you know anyone who is working on the accessibility documentation?
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# [02:29] <@Ryan_Lane> I've pushed out a new robots.txt to disallow bots from crawling /w/
# [02:29] <@Ryan_Lane> on docs
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# [02:30] <@Ryan_Lane> it's not content, so there's no reason bots should crawl it
# [02:30] <Garbee> Ah ok. Thanks for explaining.
# [02:30] <Garbee> I was just about to ask.
# [02:30] <@Ryan_Lane> this is a normal thing for mediawiki, so it shouldn't affect content crawling
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# [02:30] <@Ryan_Lane> we're getting a ton of uncached hits because of it
# [02:31] <@Ryan_Lane> when /w/ isn't blocked, it also allows bots to crawl history
# [02:31] <Garbee> Should it also be set to not let them crawl the user space too? If they can that could save some hits.
# [02:31] <@Ryan_Lane> and that's insane :)
# [02:31] <@Ryan_Lane> no worries about that
# [02:31] <@Ryan_Lane> that's cached
# [02:32] <@Ryan_Lane> we actually have a shit-ton of uncached pages in content space
# [02:32] <Garbee> Yea, speaking of cache I hope you got the email from frozenice.
# [02:32] <fr0zenice> just talked to him
# [02:32] <Garbee> Ah ok.
# [02:32] <@Ryan_Lane> I responded to the Q2A question
# [02:32] <@Ryan_Lane> we have a ton of uncached pages due to a special page inclusion in the content
# [02:32] <Garbee> Thanks for saying that. It reminded me to check email.
# [02:32] <@Ryan_Lane> we noticed this on launch day
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# [02:32] <@Ryan_Lane> in fact, almost all of our content pages aren't cacheable
# [02:32] <@Ryan_Lane> that needs to get fixed
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# [02:33] <Garbee> How would that be approached?
# [02:33] <@Ryan_Lane> {{Special:PrefixIndex}} <— we need to find a replacement for what that is doing
# [02:34] <@Ryan_Lane> and it needs to be changed on any page it's used on
# [02:34] <@Ryan_Lane> which is most of them
# [02:34] <@Ryan_Lane> of course, that won't help for logged-in users
# [02:34] <@Ryan_Lane> mediawiki needs improvements for that
# [02:35] <@Ryan_Lane> specifically, same html should be delivered to anons and logged-in users
# [02:35] <@Ryan_Lane> and skin changes should be handled by ESI
# [02:36] <@Ryan_Lane> or if we don't care about users who don't have JS enabled, we could handle the skin changes using javascript
# [02:36] <Garbee> Uh, what does ESI mean in this context?
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# [02:37] <@Ryan_Lane> edge side includes
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# [02:37] <@Ryan_Lane> mediawiki would send out the same HTML, which would have ESI markup
# [02:37] <@Ryan_Lane> the frontend cache would replace those with calls to the backend
# [02:38] <@Ryan_Lane> taking the JS approach, we'd send the same HTML and we'd replace divs/spans with the appropriate content
# [02:39] <@Ryan_Lane> the goal being that we'd always serve from frontend cache, which is *way* faster
# [02:39] <Garbee> I think down the road once the theme is more ironed out we could leverage browser-side caching more. But with the current state of flux in development I'm with not focusing on it just yet.
# [02:39] <@Ryan_Lane> browser side cache isn't going to help a ton
# [02:39] <Garbee> I'd really think to not go with a JS approach due to possible performance issues client-side.
# [02:39] <@Ryan_Lane> well, the JS approach wouldn't have a lot of performance problems
# [02:40] <@Ryan_Lane> basically, it would be a small amount of JS that makes AJAX calls to pull the personalized content
# [02:40] <@Ryan_Lane> it can be stored in local storage when it's called so it only needs to happen once
# [02:40] <Garbee> Well, considering we are targeting developers and we are (hopefully) trusted to run JS, I don't see an issue with going that route personally.
# [02:40] <@Ryan_Lane> agreed
# [02:40] <@Ryan_Lane> it wouldn't help upstream a lot, but it would work for us
# [02:41] <@Ryan_Lane> and all we'd need to do for that is modify our skin
# [02:41] <Garbee> Although, I would still open that up for discussion in the Mailing List in case anyone else thinks on it more than I am at this time.
# [02:41] <@Ryan_Lane> we'd also need to modify our frontend cache settings to not pass when login cookies are detected
# [02:41] <@Ryan_Lane> but that would have a major impact on performance
# [02:43] <@Ryan_Lane> for sure, though, the {{Special:PrefixIndex}} issue needs to be solved
# [02:43] <@Ryan_Lane> it affects logged-in users and anons
# [02:44] <Garbee> ugh.
# [02:45] <Garbee> More and more I think a custom system would have been the way to go. While taking longer to dev would have been robust and exact to the needs of the system.
# [02:45] <@Ryan_Lane> no way
# [02:46] <@Ryan_Lane> the project is about writing documentation
# [02:46] <Garbee> Yea, not making a CMS.
# [02:46] <@Ryan_Lane> mediawiki is heavily used for this, and there's a lot of extensions written
# [02:47] <@Ryan_Lane> just look at the number of extensions we're using: http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/Special:Version
# [02:47] <@Ryan_Lane> heh
# [02:47] <Garbee> Although I have noticed lately that Q2A is letting me stay myself. Anyone know if the coookie issues have been touched lately?
# [02:47] <@Ryan_Lane> dunno. SSO is hard
# [02:47] <@Ryan_Lane> honestly web identity in general fucking sucks
# [02:47] <Garbee> I still don't get that gift stuff. It really makes no sense to have to me.
# [02:47] <@Ryan_Lane> gift stuff?
# [02:48] <@Ryan_Lane> is this something like wikilove?
# [02:48] <Garbee> Yea, the plugins. GiftGive.
# [02:48] <Garbee> GiftManagerLogo
# [02:48] <Garbee> GiftManager
# [02:48] <@Ryan_Lane> wait. let me find you an article
# [02:48] <Garbee> Ties into the fiends/foe system.
# [02:48] <fr0zenice> I think I figured the Comments plugin out :D
# [02:48] <@Ryan_Lane> we shouldn't have foes
# [02:48] * @paul_irish thinks we should delete superfluous wiki content comments.
# [02:48] <@paul_irish> broken windows effect and all that.
# [02:49] <@Ryan_Lane> there's a very, very good reason to have gifts
# [02:49] <Garbee> I agree with paul on the comments.
# [02:49] <Garbee> I see one on the main page's comment area just saying " nice site guys "
# [02:49] <Garbee> But I don't see a way for me to admin those...
# [02:49] <@Ryan_Lane> bleh. I can't find the article
# [02:49] <@paul_irish> Garbee: same.
# [02:50] <Garbee> As long as there is a reason Ryan...
# [02:50] <@paul_irish> Ryan_Lane: do you know what plugin is facilitating those comments in the jquery ui dialog?
# [02:50] <Garbee> I trust your judgement on that stuff ofc. I have never done server management to this scale.
# [02:50] <fr0zenice> in case anyone wonders: comment buttons should show up automatically, but only in the main namespace, not others like WPD: etc.
# [02:50] <@Ryan_Lane> basically, there's research that shows that getting "barnstars" and other non-monetary rewards causes people to contribute more
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# [02:51] <Garbee> paul, I also see jquery in the tags for wiki articles. I think until we decide what kind or even if jquery will have a place it should at least be hidden from that view.
# [02:51] <@Ryan_Lane> paul_irish: dunno
# [02:51] <@Ryan_Lane> we should remove any system that gives negative feedback
# [02:51] <@Ryan_Lane> and encourage systems that give positive feedback
# [02:51] <Garbee> Otherwise we might hear complaints about jquery "getting support" when we won't really cover any other libraries/frameworks in detail.
# [02:51] <fr0zenice> paul_irish: seems to be https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Comments or a modified version
# [02:51] <@Ryan_Lane> foes, for instance, shouldn't exist
# [02:52] <Garbee> Ryan, should we open a bug report for removing negative connotations from system functions?
# [02:52] <@Ryan_Lane> yes
# [02:52] <@Ryan_Lane> please do
# [02:52] <Garbee> I'm on it.
# [02:52] <@Ryan_Lane> wikimedia has tons of research on stuff like this
# [02:52] <Garbee> Once I find the bug tracker among all my stacked tabs...
# [02:52] <@Ryan_Lane> it's harder to make changes in wikimedia's environment because things are so entrenched
# [02:52] <@Ryan_Lane> and large
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# [02:54] <Garbee> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19529 --reported.
# [02:55] <@Ryan_Lane> cool. thanks
# [02:55] <Garbee> Sadly I didn't have my bug day like I was hoping. :(
# [02:56] <Garbee> I ended up running my dads store and didn't have time to get any of that done. I'm trying now to do it Tuesday or Wednesday, but ofc that is variable in case anything else grabs my attention in between now and then.
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# [02:57] <Garbee> I think now though most of the noise about broken things has calmed down.
# [02:57] <Garbee> Thankfully.
# [02:57] <@Ryan_Lane> I need to tweak apache again
# [02:57] <@Ryan_Lane> to make requests faster
# [02:57] <@Ryan_Lane> last time I did it I thought it caused an outage, but it was the stupid xml dumps :D
# [02:57] <Garbee> haha, perfect timing then.
# [02:58] <@Ryan_Lane> well, I'm at a conference all next week
# [02:58] <@Ryan_Lane> not a great time to be making changes
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# [02:58] <Garbee> I'd hold off then and just let it be since the site at least runs right now.
# [02:59] <Garbee> Not worth making changes like that when you won't be around that much in case something happens. Unless someone else knows how to fix it on the fly.
# [02:59] <@Ryan_Lane> yep
# [02:59] <@Ryan_Lane> I'm the only ops person so.....
# [02:59] <Garbee> Yea, you need some help man.
# [02:59] <@Ryan_Lane> heh
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# [03:01] <Garbee> Ryan, this is offtopic but since you aren't in that channel I will just ask here... Do you use a code editor like Sublime Text or Textmate, etc.?
# [03:01] <@Ryan_Lane> I use vi
# [03:02] <Garbee> Ok, thanks for the info. I know it seems so random, but there is a reason for it.
# [03:02] <@Ryan_Lane> I've never really gotten a good feel for any IDEs
# [03:02] <Garbee> ST is not an IDE.
# [03:02] * @Ryan_Lane nods
# [03:02] <Garbee> It is just a kickass code editor.
# [03:02] <@Ryan_Lane> from an editor perspective, I'm *really* comfortable with vi
# [03:02] <Garbee> That you can probably extend to become an IDE if you tried hard enough.
# [03:03] <Garbee> Oh I'm sure.
# [03:03] * Garbee is a nano baby myself in a Linux terminal.
# [03:03] <@Ryan_Lane> heh
# [03:03] <Garbee> I have never gotten vi at all.
# [03:03] <@Ryan_Lane> the default editor on the deployment system is nano :)
# [03:03] <Garbee> I did try, but just learning how to use it was too much effort to make worht while.
# [03:03] <@Ryan_Lane> I had it as vi for a while, but that's just mean to most people
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# [03:04] <Garbee> ST has a vintage mode that works like vi in some areas.
# [03:04] <Garbee> You may want to give that a go. ;)
# [03:04] <@Ryan_Lane> heh
# [03:04] <@Ryan_Lane> is it open source?
# [03:04] <Garbee> Sadly no.
# [03:04] <Garbee> $60 for license, but free trial with no real limits.
# [03:04] <@Ryan_Lane> I'm kind of a purist, though I do use OS X
# [03:04] <Garbee> It is cross-platform as well.
# [03:04] <Garbee> http://sublimetext.com
# [03:04] * @Ryan_Lane nods
# [03:05] <@Ryan_Lane> ah
# [03:05] <@Ryan_Lane> neat
# [03:05] <Garbee> Seriously, *try* it at least if you ever find the time. Vintage mode when coming from VI would be worth knowing about in advance.
# [03:05] <@Ryan_Lane> heh
# [03:05] <Garbee> I used it for weeks before buying just to get the feel for it.
# [03:05] <fr0zenice> guess I'll need to take a look at ST soon
# [03:05] <Garbee> I love that Jon really doesn't enforce any kind of limits on the trial.
# [03:06] <@Ryan_Lane> my main problem is that the majority of the editing I do is on remote servers
# [03:06] <@Ryan_Lane> I don't even run virtual machines on my laptop anymore
# [03:06] <Garbee> Yea, ST is pointless then tbh unless you mount them locally (hahaha.)
# [03:07] <@Ryan_Lane> https://labsconsole.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page <— all of my dev work happens here now
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# [03:07] <Garbee> I do *a lot* of local editing on things, and am even trying to do my doc editing for webplatform in ST locally as well.
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# [03:07] <@Ryan_Lane> heh 666 users. fitting
# [03:08] * Garbee thinks I'd be scared of this guy: Chad Horohoe (^demon)
# [03:08] <@Ryan_Lane> :D
# [03:08] <Garbee> The () being the IRC nick.
# [03:08] <@Ryan_Lane> nah, he's not really scary ;)
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# [03:09] <Garbee> Sure, you say that now.
# [03:09] <Garbee> Then I got to ask a question and end up giving my soul away.
# [03:09] <@Ryan_Lane> well, I've worked with him for a few years now ;)
# [03:09] <Garbee> I have heard that story before.
# [03:11] <Garbee> Btw, I need to know now. 1) Who's idea was an IRC webclient on the site itself? and 2) Who decided on how to impliment it?
# [03:11] <Garbee> I'm just going to say it, that was a horrible try.
# [03:11] <@Ryan_Lane> I think shepazu's idea
# [03:11] <@Ryan_Lane> it's a good idea
# [03:11] <Garbee> Good idea bad try.
# [03:12] <@Ryan_Lane> we need to put some protections in front of it
# [03:12] <Garbee> Blocking IP's in the connection is never a nice idea.
# [03:12] <@Ryan_Lane> maybe tie it into the auth systems
# [03:12] <@Ryan_Lane> you can ban individual users from the web interface
# [03:12] <Garbee> Copy Freenode on that one, show the IP at the end of the connection. That way we can take care of abusers/trolls easily.
# [03:12] <Garbee> w/o affecting all users like we currently are.
# [03:12] <@Ryan_Lane> the ip hash is in the real name
# [03:13] <Garbee> No hashing, that is the point.
# [03:13] <@Ryan_Lane> it's configured according to freenode's suggestions
# [03:13] <Garbee> It blocks us able to block.
# [03:13] <Garbee> Really? I need to go find that suggestion now.
# [03:13] <@Ryan_Lane> no, it still allows the block
# [03:13] <@Ryan_Lane> you block the hash
# [03:13] <@Ryan_Lane> which blocks the IP
# [03:13] <Garbee> They get a new hash when they reconnect though.
# [03:14] <@Ryan_Lane> no
# [03:14] <Garbee> The kitten troll kep getting a new one.
# [03:14] <@Ryan_Lane> it's a hash of their IP
# [03:14] <Garbee> kept*
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# [03:14] <@Ryan_Lane> they are likely a bot that's distributed
# [03:14] <Garbee> hmm... I'm checking my logs again.
# [03:14] <@Ryan_Lane> if we tie this into the auth system, it would solve a lot
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# [03:15] <Garbee> Yea, I'm seeing a change in the hash.
# [03:15] <@Ryan_Lane> I made a number of changes since launch
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# [03:17] <Garbee> I responded to the bug report on it. I really think the best thing would be just to push people to webchat.freenode.org with the channel name already filled in. That way it is also one less thing the webplatform site is doing.
# [03:18] <@Ryan_Lane> true. it's nice to have it directly integrated, though
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# [03:18] <@Ryan_Lane> and if we integrate the auth, then we kill the trolls anyway
# [03:19] <Garbee> oh, on the auth system. Someone had thought MediaWiki might just be misconfigured in some way. They had a link so a discussion on it too.
# [03:19] <Garbee> Let me see if I can find it in my logs.
# [03:19] <Garbee> In case you didn't catch that.
# [03:19] <@Ryan_Lane> it's possible
# [03:19] <@Ryan_Lane> though I don't really see how
# [03:20] <Garbee> I also see the point to having it directly integrated on the site too. I think if we got things patched and I learned how it works then I will feel better about it.
# [03:20] * @Ryan_Lane nods
# [03:20] <fr0zenice> ugh, 3 AM already again... time for some sleep, see you guys tomorrow!
# [03:21] <@Ryan_Lane> fr0zenice: see ya
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# [03:21] <Garbee> I do ask that *before* webchat directly integrated goes back online we have a way to let Ops know how it is going to work and deal with issues. Just so we all understand ahead of time.
# [03:21] <@Ryan_Lane> yeah
# [03:24] <Garbee> Looks like someone thinks it had something to do with the abuse filter... That was on the 8th though and is not in the conversation I'm thinking of.
# [03:25] <@Ryan_Lane> with abuse filter?
# [03:25] <@Ryan_Lane> that would be *very* odd
# [03:25] <Garbee> I think I just found the conversation.
# [03:25] <Garbee> WIth Tomato.
# [03:25] <Garbee> The link he provided: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Thread:Project:Support_desk/Login_Problem
# [03:25] <Garbee> I never even opened it.
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# [03:28] <@Ryan_Lane> yeah. none of that helps :(
# [03:28] <@Ryan_Lane> we're using memcache for sessions
# [03:28] <@Ryan_Lane> I honestly think it's a bug in mediawiki
# [03:28] <@Ryan_Lane> we need to upgrade mediawiki at some point
# [03:29] <Garbee> Well, worth mentioning at list.
# [03:29] <Garbee> least*
# [03:30] <Garbee> Wow, how did that make it out of my fingers.
# [03:30] <@Ryan_Lane> heh
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# [04:11] <Garbee> Ryan_Lane, What version control system is MediaWiki developed on?
# [04:11] <@Ryan_Lane> git
# [04:11] <@Ryan_Lane> using gerrit
# [04:12] <Garbee> Couldn't you check the changelog for changes to files relating to user sessions on that? Might give some kind of an idea if there is a patch needed to fix SSO.
# [04:12] <Garbee> I'm sure you could target the files somehow and get just their (or their folders) change history in between the current version and the one you are running the site on.
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# [04:14] <@Ryan_Lane> well, we're planning to upgrade anyway
# [04:14] <@Ryan_Lane> and searching for that isn't the easiest
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# [04:14] <Garbee> Yea, upgrading would be prime to also get other enhancements.
# [04:14] <Garbee> and fixes.
# [04:14] <@Ryan_Lane> I know there was a bug with memcache support at some point, but I'm pretty sure the version we're on already has that patch
# [04:15] <Garbee> Well, I just had that idea thinking it could be of some help.
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# [04:16] * @Ryan_Lane nods
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# [04:16] <Garbee> Ah, cool: https://github.com/mediawiki
# [04:16] <@Ryan_Lane> yeah
# [04:17] <@Ryan_Lane> we replicate core there
# [04:17] <Garbee> I see.
# [04:17] <Garbee> Not worth me watching though. :/ I have little interest there myself.
# [04:17] <@Ryan_Lane> nothing session related in memcache support since August
# [04:18] <@Ryan_Lane> it's possible this was after our version, though
# [04:19] <@Ryan_Lane> I don't see a fix for sessions, though
# [04:19] <Garbee> Just upgrade and hope it works?
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# [04:21] <@Ryan_Lane> https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/18069/1
# [04:21] <@Ryan_Lane> well, that might help
# [04:22] * Garbee thinks it would.
# [04:22] <Garbee> At least in some way.
# [04:22] <Garbee> Not sure how much it would help with SSO between Q2A though...
# [04:23] <@Ryan_Lane> well, it would just make the problem less apparent
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# [04:23] <Garbee> That is better.
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# [04:25] <Garbee> So I guess it is put up with it and let anyone know who brings it up anymore that it is still being worked on until the update happens. Then it is check to see if it is helped at all.
# [04:27] <@Ryan_Lane> or rewrite the SSO system to not use mediawiki's memcache sessions
# [04:27] <Garbee> I'm going to try and get an email out tomorrow with some suggestions on how we can get more eyes on the known issue lists and Q&A FAQ and all that while things are still in alpha.
# [04:27] <Garbee> That way hopefully people will see them and not need to ask or report it yet again.
# [04:28] <@Ryan_Lane> if someone fixes the openid extension for mediawiki to act as a provider, then we could use openid for sso
# [04:28] <Garbee> Right now it is kinda hidden stuff unless you happen to see our links.
# [04:28] * Garbee goes to find that extension.
# [04:28] <@Ryan_Lane> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:OpenID
# [04:29] <Garbee> Yea, already there.
# [04:29] <Garbee> (BING)
# [04:29] <@Ryan_Lane> I need that fixed in the same way
# [04:29] <@Ryan_Lane> but I don't have time to do it
# [04:29] <@Ryan_Lane> it needs to be fixed to remove that damn make file too
# [04:30] <@Ryan_Lane> and it needs to be moved to gerrit, rather than wherever the hell it is right now
# [04:30] <@Ryan_Lane> ah. it's still in SVN
# [04:30] * @Ryan_Lane pukes
# [04:31] <Garbee> I'm personally kinda getting peeved when people think that just because all these big companies are stewards things should just work from the start. I don't think they realize how constrained resources on the project actually are.
# [04:31] <Garbee> Well, constrained for you guys.
# [04:31] <@Ryan_Lane> yeah
# [04:31] <Garbee> (and gals)
# [04:31] <@Ryan_Lane> time was a massive constraint
# [04:31] <Garbee> I can see.
# [04:31] <@Ryan_Lane> soon enough we'll have things in the open
# [04:31] <@Ryan_Lane> including the test/dev environment
# [04:32] <@Ryan_Lane> so people can help fix things directly
# [04:32] <Garbee> Yea, which brings up something for the meta room...
# [04:32] <@Ryan_Lane> I added a project for it already in Wikimedia Labs: https://labsconsole.wikimedia.org/wiki/Nova_Resource:Webplatform
# [04:32] <@Ryan_Lane> it's empty right now, but we'll have a clone of the environment in there soon enough
# [04:33] <@Ryan_Lane> Labs will be open registration soon as well, so that should make things easier
# [04:33] <Garbee> Is there any way I could possibly get a copy of the skin code? I would like to try and help fix some of the theme issues if allowed, and don't really feel like replicating a plain HTML file and all to do it.
# [04:34] <@Ryan_Lane> dunno
# [04:34] <@Ryan_Lane> we should release that directly to wikimedia's gerrit server
# [04:34] <@Ryan_Lane> all mediawiki related stuff should go there
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# [04:35] <Garbee> Well, I will wait until you all get things going there then.
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# [04:36] <@Ryan_Lane> source control and deployment is hard :(
# [04:36] <@Ryan_Lane> we should really use wikimedia's gerrit for mediawiki upstream
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# [04:36] <@Ryan_Lane> but then, we don't really want to use external repos for deployment
# [04:36] <Garbee> Yea, check the meta channel. ;)
# [04:36] <@Ryan_Lane> I wonder if we can do replication
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# [07:28] <arkhi1> Hello
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# [08:37] <arkhi> quick question: What does "Related Specifications" stand for in a CSS property context?
# [08:37] <arkhi> the matching W3C specs or some related properties specs?
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# [09:27] <FredFred> Wow..first time here. Didn't expect this many people here at this hour. That or everyone just left their clients connected.
# [09:29] <HammHetfield> probably the latter
# [09:29] <HammHetfield> but you're not entirely alone :)
# [09:29] <FredFred> lol…glad to know there's at least one!
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# [09:37] <mdel> its 3:30AM almost, but im here
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# [09:38] <arkhi> *poke*
# [09:38] <arkhi> Hi all
# [09:50] <FredFred> greetings
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# [09:51] <ConnorMontgomery> hey there
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# [09:57] <arkhi> Hello ConnorMontgomery
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# [10:40] <asbjorn> Hello guys :-) Anyone awake?
# [10:41] * HammHetfield raises hand
# [10:42] <asbjorn> I've been looking at the http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/WPD:Content/Topic_Hierarchy article and thinking about how I can make use of this structure... I mean, its good for documentation, but I feel that it needs a "entrance" sort of thing which is more wrapped around subject...?
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# [10:43] <HammHetfield> asbjorn: like tutorials ?
# [10:43] <asbjorn> I guess when I need to look up documentation like this it is either as a reference for what I'm already using (then the structure is fine), AND as a source of information about different options I have to solve my problem.
# [10:44] <asbjorn> Well, if I'm looking for a way to store data locally - what is a natural approach to look up options for that?
# [10:44] <HammHetfield> I suppose these would either go in tutorials (how to solve X, how to do Y) or in concepts (what is techniques Z and tools to do it)
# [10:46] <asbjorn> Yeah, I'm not opposed to this structure, I'm just thinking there should be a more natural grouping of this content...?
# [10:46] <HammHetfield> I don't understand why it's not natural to you
# [10:47] <HammHetfield> concepts = techniques, patterns, all kind of concepts in general
# [10:47] <HammHetfield> tutorials = how-to guide to doing something
# [10:47] <HammHetfield> that's already 2 compatible ways to cover your questions about local storage
# [10:47] <HammHetfield> plus all the doc about its APIs
# [10:50] <asbjorn> well, from the first page, I'm not sure if I want a concept or a tutorial or perhaps Javascript which I guess is what I will be using. If I click any of these I would have to dig pretty deep to get to some actual information about what I should use to solve my problem...
# [10:50] <HammHetfield> not necessarily
# [10:51] <HammHetfield> if the pages link to each other, you should be able to find what you're looking for
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# [10:51] <asbjorn> no, and that is what I'm trying to address :-P
# [10:51] <asbjorn> the not necessarily part...
# [10:51] <HammHetfield> it would be difficult now because right now information is missing and everything
# [10:52] <asbjorn> I'm just trying to think of a good way into the matter to solve the most common "use-cases" for the site...
# [10:52] <HammHetfield> but if say doc about localStorage API contains a link to the tutotirla about how to use it and a link to the page explaining the idea of offline browsing, I don't think why that'd be difficult
# [10:52] <HammHetfield> tutorial*
# [10:53] <asbjorn> now, thats how it should be I think! but how do I get to the localStorage article in the first place... All I know is that I need to store some data locally - perhaps I don't even know that its an option to do so...
# [10:54] <HammHetfield> I think you're thinking backward
# [10:54] <HammHetfield> if you had this issue, you'd google it, get directly on one of the page that talk about it
# [10:54] <HammHetfield> the concept (least likely), the tutorial or the doc
# [10:54] <HammHetfield> or you'd use the search
# [10:55] <HammHetfield> if you decide to go through the navigation without knowing the site's architecture, what you're looking for… you're on your own
# [10:55] <asbjorn> both the google thing and the search expect that I know what I'm looking for... there is no guaratee that I'll hit anything I can use if I don't know that its called localStorage
# [10:56] <HammHetfield> concepts -> programming -> offline browsing
# [10:56] <asbjorn> Have a look at the "HTML5 FEATURES" grouping on http://www.html5rocks.com/en/
# [10:56] <arkhi> asbjorn: If you don't know what you want, you can't really search for it, I guess.
# [10:56] <asbjorn> arkhi: thats my point...
# [10:57] <arkhi> Beside trusted network that knows a problem you don't face, or luck, I don't see how you would find the information.
# [10:57] <asbjorn> but if you had some sort of subject grouping (see the link) then you could find this information
# [10:57] * asbjorn brb
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# [10:57] <HammHetfield> unless you're running a website that contains dozens of topics, and then you just have a lot of icons to design, and not really any solution
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# [11:01] <arkhi> What about html5rocks? Are you talking about personas style navigation?
# [11:01] <HammHetfield> I think he means the list of icons + text at the bottom
# [11:02] <HammHetfield> which works because there's just a few topics
# [11:02] <asbjorn> Nono, look at the "Features" think... Offline, Storage, File Access, etc.
# [11:02] <HammHetfield> but if you put as many as there are on WPD...
# [11:02] <asbjorn> HammHetfield: yeah, I get that, that is why its not an easy problem...
# [11:03] <arkhi> I like the personas idea.
# [11:03] <HammHetfield> asbjorn: I don't think it's an important problem
# [11:03] <HammHetfield> concepts -> programming -> offline browsing
# [11:03] <arkhi> Who are you => What are you the most likely to be interested in.
# [11:03] <HammHetfield> and that would link to the other concepts
# [11:03] <arkhi> true HammHetfield :)
# [11:03] <HammHetfield> other pages*
# [11:03] <HammHetfield> if you can't find that, maybe you shouldn't be searching
# [11:04] <asbjorn> HammHetfield: I disagree. I think it is important if the webplatform wants to be a broad source of information for lots of people...
# [11:05] <HammHetfield> how about limiting to people that can use google and/or the Q&A ?
# [11:05] <HammHetfield> "hey how's it called when stuff are stored in my browser instead of a DB ?"
# [11:05] <FredFred> There's so many languages, protocols, and on and on. I see this as "setting the standard tools" operation
# [11:05] <HammHetfield> get an answer with link -> there you go
# [11:06] <HammHetfield> use google 'web platform make website work offline" -> link to the concept page
# [11:06] <asbjorn> I think of myself as pretty experienced web dev, I know all about localStorage, indexedDB, cache manifest, the File API, canvas, etc. etc. and even I find can't really find docs in a good way...
# [11:06] <HammHetfield> because the docs aren't there yet
# [11:06] <HammHetfield> they're not linked to each other properly
# [11:07] <FredFred> Used Google's web platform for workers to check in and out. Simple from what I expected
# [11:07] <HammHetfield> right now all posts are dots with time the community should add more dots and connections between the dots
# [11:08] <FredFred> mesh?
# [11:09] <asbjorn> HammHetfield: thats true, but the whole "how to find" already if relevant to editors. Let's say I make a tutorial about drawing images on a canvas (which I'm actually doing), where do I link up the article so that people can navigate to it (from the top)
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# [11:10] <asbjorn> actually I think "from the top" approach is more relevant now then later, because later, as you say, all the dots will be connected... they are not now...
# [11:10] <HammHetfield> first of all you don't have to do it yourself
# [11:10] <asbjorn> and people will use http://webplatform.org as an entrance to see what is there now...
# [11:11] <HammHetfield> so maybe you should let it go for now, focus on your article and the community will add links to your article where it sees fit, add stuff, etc etc
# [11:11] <HammHetfield> so you shouldn't really be worried about that, especially now
# [11:11] <HammHetfield> second of all, you could a link like "Further reading" in the canvas docs pages
# [11:11] <FredFred> Does the article belong @ the top? (not trying to nag rather point out how complex this can get.
# [11:11] <asbjorn> I guess that is what I'll end up doing... But I'm also part of the communit and are looking for a natural way to reach the content I want...
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# [11:12] <FredFred> typo…or two.
# [11:14] <FredFred> So is the web platform void of python, perl, and on and on? I actually think it'd be a good thing even though I'm most familiar with python.
# [11:16] <asbjorn> FredFred: webplatform is for web technologies like javascript, css and html... not for backend programming languages...
# [11:17] <FredFred> That is an impressive goal. I was kind of wondering what SVG was doing in there but it makes more sense now.
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# [12:05] <fr0zenice> good day :)
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# [12:11] <HammHetfield> hello
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# [12:12] <eighty4> morning
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# [13:44] <Garbee> asbjorn, FYI, If you aren't sure exactly where to put something, just give it a best guess.
# [13:44] <Garbee> If it doesn't belong we can simply move it later on.
# [13:45] <Garbee> Right now I think we can all agree we would rather be getting good content at least added that is trying to be categorized properly. If it happens to not be, it is a simple move solution. So no real worries about any massive messes coming from it.
# [13:46] * fr0zenice agrees
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# [13:49] <@Grephix> Hi guys
# [13:49] <Garbee> Although I do see some great points made in the log for needing clerity on categorization.
# [13:50] <fr0zenice> hey Grephix
# [13:50] <Garbee> Yo.
# [13:50] <Garbee> (not lo)
# [13:50] <@Grephix> Hi fr0zenice, Garbee lol
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# [14:03] <Garbee> Should I go through the Q&A today and clean up the unessecary noise/flull?
# [14:09] <eighty4> Garbee: yes
# [14:10] <Garbee> I have been trying to clean the latest stuff up. But going back through I'm just seeing so must cruft I can finally cleanup and hopefully get it all a bit easier to find what people want.
# [14:10] <Garbee> We got *another* "Why am I wikisysop" question yesterday. It will be the last one actually answered. That is my reference point for closing any new ones down for.
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# [14:15] <eighty4> morning leaverou
# [14:15] <eighty4> erh… letterpress
# [14:19] <HammHetfield> the amount of famous people coming in this chan is too damn high
# [14:19] <Garbee> HammHetfield, That is no problem.
# [14:19] <HammHetfield> didn't say it is
# [14:20] <eighty4> HammHetfield: don't let it go to your head ;)
# [14:20] <HammHetfield> quite the opposite, I'm just always shocked and surprise when I see "famous" people on IRC
# [14:20] <HammHetfield> "oh look, that guy that writes that blog I've been religiously following for 4 years just logged in, no pressure, noooooo pressuuuuure"
# [14:21] <eighty4> and then you find out that that guy is a total ****** :P
# [14:21] <HammHetfield> nah usually I say something really stupid, cry and go afk
# [14:21] <eighty4> also link to the blog please?
# [14:22] <HammHetfield> but hey, doesn't mean the guy isn't a total douche
# [14:23] <HammHetfield> eighty4: well I have lëaverou in my rss feed, päulirish as well, didn't see äddyosmani in here, surprising looks like the kind of project he'd contribute to but he's in #yeaoman sometimes and probably some more
# [14:24] <Garbee> I actually learned about WPD from Paul's blog. :P
# [14:25] <eighty4> I should read more blogs :| I only actually know lëaverou from in here and I have no idea who äddyosmani is
# [14:26] <HammHetfield> eighty4: I'd say he's a JS evangelist ^^
# [14:26] <HammHetfield> he made the TodoMVC repo with the todo app in almost all js MV* frameworks
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# [14:26] <HammHetfield> and lot of other stuff like that, mostly about JS
# [14:26] <HammHetfield> he's part of the yeoman team as well I think
# [14:27] <HammHetfield> eighty4: päulirish published on his blog an RSS feed folder of people to follow for fronted related news
# [14:28] <HammHetfield> add that and you're good to go, almost anything you'd want to subscribe to is in there
# [14:28] <Garbee> HammHetfield, You also do realize most of these people have been using IRC for years right...
# [14:28] <Garbee> Yea, that feed is insane.
# [14:28] <eighty4> HammHetfield: right, but using/reading about the above doesn't mean I know who the authors is :)
# [14:29] <HammHetfield> Garbee: lol of course
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# [14:30] <HammHetfield> eighty4: well if you care even just a little bit
# [14:30] <HammHetfield> like a girl name + a last name that means "lock" in french, no way I wouldn't want to know who's behind that
# [14:30] <eighty4> and link to that rss feed? I can't seem to find it
# [14:30] <HammHetfield> primitive french male instict
# [14:30] <HammHetfield> instinct
# [14:31] <eighty4> you're so not a french male :)
# [14:31] <HammHetfield> eighty4: http://paulirish.com/2011/web-browser-frontend-and-standards-feeds-to-follow/
# [14:32] <HammHetfield> eighty4: as if you're 84 ¬.¬
# [14:32] <HammHetfield> on the internet nobody knows I'm a dog
# [14:32] <Garbee> The Adcademic Research stuff he posted is interesting as well: http://paulirish.com/2012/academic-research-on-browsers-frontend-development-and-debugging/
# [14:32] <Garbee> That is more recent.
# [14:32] <eighty4> HammHetfield: 1984 :) yes
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# [14:33] <eighty4> 277 feeds :)
# [14:33] <eighty4> that's absurd
# [14:33] <HammHetfield> many inactive ones though
# [14:33] <HammHetfield> roughly 100/posts a week, something like that
# [14:34] <HammHetfield> some I often skip like jQuery change logs and stuff like that
# [14:34] <HammHetfield> keep them around when needed but that's all
# [14:34] <eighty4> I don't even read 10 a day :)
# [14:35] <HammHetfield> my morning routine when I get to work is to find the article that seems the most interesting in my news feed and read that while drinking coffee
# [14:36] <HammHetfield> you should do it, it's really nice, sweet way to go from "waha fuck noisy streets, I don't wanna work today" to "so, code, interesting how does that work ?"
# [14:36] <HammHetfield> plus the coffee… everything is always better with coffee
# [14:36] <arkhi> if you like coffee, that's for sure.
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# [14:37] <HammHetfield> if you don't, you can always add some coffee to it since everything is always better with coffee ;)
# [14:37] <eighty4> I tend to blankly stare into the wall while I drink my coffee :)
# [14:37] <Garbee> Ok, you guys have fun oogling the well known devs. Please no touching.
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# [14:39] <eighty4> what reader do you use HammHetfield?
# [14:39] <HammHetfield> eighty4: NetNewsWire.app
# [14:40] <eighty4> ah, I was hoping you were using some nice web based one.
# [14:40] <HammHetfield> it's using google feeds internally, to keep them all in sync across aaaaaaaall my 2 computers
# [14:40] <HammHetfield> well goodle feeds must have some web interface
# [14:40] <arkhi> eighty4: TinyTiny RSS never failed me if you're looking for something web based
# [14:40] <HammHetfield> TinyTiny RSS never falls short
# [14:40] <eighty4> arkhi: I'd like something that works from iphone top laptio
# [14:41] <HammHetfield> not sure this joke even makes sense but I wanted to try anyway
# [14:41] <arkhi> HammHetfield: :)
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# [15:50] <Guest9355> i'm new to irc!
# [15:51] <HammHetfield> <joke> then you probably want to change your nickname (username), type : /quit someNameHere to change it </joke>
# [15:52] <HammHetfield> (the real command is /nick someName fyi)
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# [15:57] <Damianz> Really he just needs to /join 0, it's the cool channel
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# [15:59] <Hoetmaaiers> Thanks!
# [16:00] <HammHetfield> you're welcome :)
# [16:00] <HammHetfield> now if you press Cmd + Q (or Alt + f4 on windows), you'll see the list of commands on IRC
# [16:00] <HammHetfield> (o o ) ( o o)...
# [16:00] * HammHetfield is being mean
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# [16:01] <HammHetfield> :(
# [16:01] <HammHetfield> I didn't think he'd do it
# [16:02] <HammHetfield> I feel bad now
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# [16:15] <Garbee> HammHetfield, Please don't joke like that in this room.
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# [16:24] <HammHetfield> okay
# [16:25] <HammHetfield> thought these shortcuts would be known by anybody that would end up in such a channel… I guess I was wrong :(
# [16:25] <Garbee> Yea, not really. That is the problem.
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# [16:26] <Garbee> Also when they are new to IRC it can seem like it is just telling someone to go away.
# [16:27] <Garbee> Which *we* know it isn't, but they could see it that way.
# [16:27] <HammHetfield> I know, I really feel bad, I was convinced he'd know the command and/or would see I already made a joke before
# [16:27] <HammHetfield> but… well he didn't :(
# [16:28] <Garbee> Or it was just really good timing of them having something else to do and needing to close the window.
# [16:29] <Garbee> Don't feel too bad, we simply don't know for sure. But, let's try to not let it happen in the future.
# [16:30] <HammHetfield> yep, got it
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# [17:34] <shepazu> morning, folks
# [17:34] <Garbee> Hello.
# [17:34] <@Grephix> Hi shepazu
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# [17:38] <fr0zenice> hey shepazu
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# [17:54] <Garbee> This seems odd. I went into a new Question for the first time yet I have already upvoted an answer...
# [17:55] <fr0zenice> does it show your correct username at the top?
# [17:56] <Sandkorn> mmh, wasit an answer you'd probably have upvoted anyway?
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# [17:56] <Garbee> Yea, and it even has my groups.
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# [17:56] <Garbee> I am surely me, but it is odd that it seems I already upvoted the answer.
# [17:57] <fr0zenice> which one
# [17:57] <Garbee> http://talk.webplatform.org/forums/index.php/598/can-i-document-unofficially-standards --Chris's.
# [17:57] <fr0zenice> heh
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# [17:57] <fr0zenice> actually I upvoted that one some minutes ago
# [17:57] <Garbee> Oh, nvm. I'm an idiot.
# [17:57] <Garbee> This is from 5 days ago.
# [17:58] <Garbee> It is back at the top due to a new answer.
# [17:58] <Garbee> *facepalm*
# [17:58] <fr0zenice> :)
# [17:58] <Garbee> So much stuff going on in 5 days I'm already forgetting what is going on. :/
# [17:58] <Garbee> Well, what I have done. I know what is going on right now.
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# [18:02] <Sandkorn> Since i'm not quite sure what this channel is really about yet and my question has kind of a narrow target group.... Anyone else noticed some strange DOM-not-updating when using Javacript with the latest chromium (*buntu)? Having some weird behaviour since the last update..
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# [18:09] <Garbee> Sandkorn, https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/chromium-browser would be the place to ask and/or file a bug report.
# [18:11] <Sandkorn> yeh, just have no time these days to narrow it down or go through the huge pile of code line by line :-/ .. was hoping its a known something and just couldnt find anything :-\
# [18:11] <Sandkorn> thanks tho :-)
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# [18:25] <Garbee> josie, The theme does feel like that. I personally think it is a little overdone.
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# [18:27] <josieliang> here is my original question: Wonder if it is just me or there are other people has the same feeling, when I look at the web platform.org website, I feel like in a little fabric store
# [18:28] <josieliang> Garbee, I agree.
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# [18:29] <josieliang> it seems for a web platform website, the ux is a bit not matching the context
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# [18:30] <Garbee> Well. I think of it more as targeting developers, yet the theme looks like something developers build for clients.
# [18:30] <Garbee> I think something a little more simplistic would probably be satisfactory. But, at least they are trying to keep it consistent.
# [18:30] <Garbee> Also simpler would probably have less issues.
# [18:31] <josieliang> simple is better, agree
# [18:31] <Garbee> It works though except for a few issues. So I'm fine with what it is.
# [18:31] <josieliang> the curtain gives a bit weird feeling, maybe
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# [18:31] <Garbee> I'm sure they had a reason for the design. We just don't see that discussion. :/ Oh well.
# [18:32] <josieliang> :)
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# [18:32] <Garbee> It works for what we *need* to get done, so I'm fine with most UI elements atm.
# [18:32] <Garbee> I do see plenty of rough spots though, but it is alpha and all issues are known so it is just moot to really bring up until we get source access to try and help fix it.
# [18:33] <Garbee> I kinda don't like the static bar at the top though, I'd love to see it stick to the top.
# [18:35] <josieliang> right. Just remember it looks very much like the retailmenot theme, or an old version of it
# [18:35] <josieliang> and it also feels web1
# [18:35] <josieliang> I am new,
# [18:35] <josieliang> so do not know if there are issues
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# [18:35] <josieliang> but just a straight feeling dump when come to the site
# [18:35] <Garbee> You will see them. ;)
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# [18:36] <Garbee> Tables not looking right in some areas (expanding outside of their parent element), Table of Contents if you turn it on isn't too great right now, and a few other oddities here and there. I also see a few more issues due to administrative tasks I see.
# [18:37] <Garbee> It works, so I'm focusing on getting content in. Thankfully someone else is leading the charge on cleanup of current content so I can focus on what I like to do.
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# [18:38] <Garbee> Honestly if Tomato weren't around I'd probably be on cleanup.
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# [18:40] <josieliang> I see
# [18:42] <Garbee> I'm dropping into the bug list. I may be back in a few years...
# [18:42] <Garbee> ;)
# [18:42] <josieliang> :)
# [18:43] <Garbee> I'm trying to find things that might be in here that we could get people to take care of on the frontend. That way if we could get it handled by others then the people who the bugs are assigned to can focus on other things.
# [18:43] <Garbee> Plus some seem not to know quite where to start, so if we could get some bugs taken care of in the process of them getting started then everyone wins.
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# [18:46] <josieliang> agree
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# [19:17] <AGM114K2A> I'm trying to check my code on http://validator.w3.org but I keep getting an error for my site www.newsideo.com - it says it's a 302 error, but it shows fine when you open it in a browser. Anyone have any insight?
# [19:19] <Garbee> AGM114K2A, Sounds like a server misconfiguration.
# [19:20] <Garbee> This checks it though, and it looks pretty bad: http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.newsideo.com;No200=1
# [19:20] <Garbee> Looks like you need to update the doctype.
# [19:20] <Garbee> And fix your comments.
# [19:21] <eighty4> In case anyone missed it http://www.redbullstratos.com/live/
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# [19:22] <Garbee> Although, those types of questions are probably better asked in #web.
# [19:23] <eighty4> Or rater #html?
# [19:23] <Garbee> Yea, there too. I'm not sure #html5 would be the place though...
# [19:23] <AGM114K2A> garbee: thanks man
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# [19:25] <lampe2> hello my friends
# [19:25] <eighty4> evening lampe2
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# [19:35] <Garbee> Does anyone else think that the Sublime Text plug on the beginners page should be removed? Ref: http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/beginners under Before You Start, point 2.
# [19:35] <fr0zenice> yeah, should be a link to the dev tools
# [19:35] <Garbee> We are going to give paid tools like that which are trusted and many devs use on the Dev Tools page. I think things mentioned there should be free.
# [19:36] <Damianz> Considering it doesn't mention geany or other decent, lightweight, free editors probably should go away
# [19:36] <Garbee> Well, I don't want a direct link to Dev Tools in that place since 1) It isn't done yet, 2) They shouldn't need to go through that list to get that info.
# [19:36] <Damianz> Still <3 Sublime for anything not in vim
# [19:36] <Garbee> Oh, I love ST too. I just think a plug in that place is improper.
# [19:36] <Garbee> Nice to see others agree. ;) So I'm taking care of it.
# [19:37] <Garbee> Plus in that context it also makes it sound like ST is free, which it certainly is not.
# [19:37] <Damianz> If it's a plug then there should also be a plug for textmate because it was awesome and is now opensource for osx :D </just saying>
# [19:37] <Garbee> Exactly. Plugging that one there opens up a can of worms that shouldn't be.
# [19:38] <eighty4> Shouldn't things like eclipse in ther eas well?
# [19:38] <eighty4> emacs, vi?
# [19:38] <Garbee> eighty4, They will be covered in the Dev Tools section.
# [19:39] <Garbee> I think eclipse, emacs, and vi are a little too much for beginners. But they are great to plug in Dev Tools.
# [19:39] <Garbee> Thanks for bringing it up. /me facepalms for forgetting to add an IDE section to Dev Tools.
# [19:41] <Damianz> vim is an awesome tool and should be learnt as it's syntax is used accross a bunch of linux tools such as the less pager :D
# [19:41] <Garbee> Well, that is great *if* you use Linux.
# [19:41] <Garbee> Not all devs do.
# [19:42] <Garbee> We aren't going into that much detail on them though. Just quick plugs.
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# [19:42] * Damianz wonders how you could ever develop on windows urrgh
# [19:42] <Francisc> Windows is awesome.
# [19:43] <Garbee> The only thing we are going into detail on are the Browser's tools (and Firebug and plugins for Opera (dragonfly iirc)). That way we can teach people how to use built in tools and a few major plugins to actually test their pages.
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# [19:43] <Garbee> Other plugins that are trusted and get used *for web dev* can get a plug too, but not any in-detail guides without some discussion first I think.
# [19:44] <Damianz> Chrome inspector > Firebug every time (once you figure it out)
# [19:44] <eighty4> Damianz: os x?
# [19:45] <Garbee> Yea, I prefer Chrome's Dev Tools myself. Originally I like FF and Firebug, but once I learned how much easier Chrome Dev Tools are I just got frustrated with Firebug.
# [19:45] <Damianz> I don't personally like osx, I do have it on my laptop as I've not re-installed it yet at the moment though. It's hard to get tools on as packages suck, much like windows.
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# [19:48] <eighty4> Damianz: probably mot the right channel to discuss this. But if you haven't try brew or similar.
# [19:49] <Damianz> I use brew/port, it's not really a packager manager replacement but it does help.
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# [19:50] <Garbee> Yea, head into #webplatform-offtopic with that conversation anymore. Getting too off-topic.
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# [19:51] <Damianz> Garbee takes all the fun :P
# [19:52] <fr0zenice> only moves it to the right place :)
# [19:52] <Garbee> Damianz, I keep the fun in the right place. I don't mind a little offtopic in here with being social and all, but when it gets too deep it should go over to -offtopic.
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# [21:05] <DONVODKI> hello... ?
# [21:06] <Damianz> hi
# [21:06] <DONVODKI> hi =)
# [21:06] <Garbee> Yup, it is working.
# [21:06] <DONVODKI> ages since the last time i used an IRC program!
# [21:07] <DONVODKI> i am a media designer... looking for some inspiration today
# [21:07] <lampe2> :) IRC is great !
# [21:09] <DONVODKI> is everyone alive... or am i talking with bóts ?
# [21:09] <lampe2> o0
# [21:09] <lampe2> iam not a bot ...
# [21:09] <Garbee> Nah, not bots. There are 2 or 3 around though.
# [21:09] <DONVODKI> yor are programmed to answer like that :P
# [21:09] <Garbee> The official one is the wp-logger and another one that is being community built is wpdbot.
# [21:10] <DONVODKI> so.... is everyone sleeping ?
# [21:10] <lampe2> loading bot txt ...
# [21:10] <Garbee> Just lurking mostly.
# [21:10] <DONVODKI> yay...
# [21:10] <lampe2> bot lampe2 loaded ...
# [21:10] <lampe2> :P
# [21:10] <Garbee> Although I do know most of the people behind the site are probably resting today.
# [21:11] <Garbee> It has been a long week for them.
# [21:11] <DONVODKI> where are you from Garbee?
# [21:11] <Garbee> VA, USA.
# [21:11] <DONVODKI> va ?
# [21:11] <Garbee> VA = Virginia if you don't know shorthand.
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# [21:11] <DONVODKI> ahh
# [21:12] <DONVODKI> what do you do? are u a designer too or?
# [21:12] <Garbee> "Freelance"
# [21:12] <Garbee> ;)
# [21:12] <DONVODKI> same here... from Colombia btw
# [21:12] <lampe2> i like the when customers say: it should work on mobile too....
# [21:13] <Garbee> lampe2, Doesn't everything work on mobile that isn't flash?
# [21:13] <lampe2> Garbee, try jquery ui or things like that on mobile
# [21:14] <DONVODKI> it does work
# [21:14] <lampe2> jquery ui /= jquery mobile !
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# [21:15] <lampe2> take the normal jquery ui slider and slide it on a android or ios tablet !
# [21:15] <lampe2> it wont work
# [21:16] <lampe2> and you must write extra css code !
# [21:16] <HammHetfield> oh the horror, extra css code ^^
# [21:17] <lampe2> :) its not horror this are just more hours to code what the customer must pay for but they often dont understand that
# [21:17] <HammHetfield> maybe they're not told in words they can understand
# [21:17] <HammHetfield> but yeah the "it should work in mobiles" sentence often means a lot of time will have to be devoted to educating the client
# [21:18] <lampe2> HammHetfield, then i explain why and that something dont work on mobile etc etc :)
# [21:18] <HammHetfield> :)
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# [21:19] <lampe2> lets take an example: jquery ui slider can be vertical or horizontal BUT jquery mobile only vertical. so if your ui must look the same you must hack jquery mobile :)
# [21:20] <Garbee> *cough* #webplatform-offtopic *cough*
# [21:20] <lampe2> :)
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# [21:20] <Garbee> Well actually it could not be offtopic.
# [21:21] <lampe2> isent ui design a webplatform thing ? :)
# [21:21] <Garbee> Depends on what is decided upon jQuery in the docs. I hear they have thought of doing it. There are some things around referring to it.
# [21:21] <Garbee> I haven't seen any conversations on it though.
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# [21:22] <DONVODKI> lol
# [21:22] <DONVODKI> (i was taking some coffee)
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# [21:24] <lampe2> i need your opinion her
# [21:25] <lampe2> i was thinking that maybe it would be good to seperate the css files into layout.css and style.css. so that one file got the where the div or element should be and which size and so on and the other file should contain the color the shadow text style etc
# [21:25] <lampe2> has someone tryed that ?
# [21:26] <DONVODKI> interesting
# [21:26] <DONVODKI> but... whats the point
# [21:27] <fr0zenice> theming, I guess
# [21:27] <Michistar> I could see it being useful, if you wanted to easily change the "look" w/out changing the structure
# [21:27] <Garbee> Sounds like OO CSS just splitting into a few files.
# [21:27] <Michistar> but i've never tried it
# [21:27] <lampe2> first themeing ! and to not write everything in one big file
# [21:27] <Garbee> I have seen that kind of setup actually in some themes for LemonStand that are done by the company that made it. They have color sheets that you use to change color schemes.
# [21:28] <DONVODKI> well.. sounds good
# [21:28] <DONVODKI> true garbee
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# [21:28] <Garbee> It really is useful if you want to offer multiple color choices to users too.
# [21:29] <Garbee> You could say have a base theme and let them chose which color accents they want while browsing.
# [21:29] <Garbee> Pretty simple setup at that point.
# [21:29] <DONVODKI> some joomla templates does have several css
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# [21:29] <Garbee> It is really just a matter of figuring out the best way to coordinate everything.
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# [21:30] <lampe3> argh damn internet connection
# [21:30] <DONVODKI> i guess its a good idea if your site is complex like a CMS
# [21:30] <lampe3> can someone kick lampe2 ?
# [21:30] <Garbee> lampe3, It will timeout in a moment.
# [21:30] <Garbee> I would but I lost Op somehow.
# [21:31] <lampe3> its not only themeing
# [21:31] <Garbee> Probably had a netsplit mess things up.
# [21:31] <lampe3> it would be great if when i load it on mobile i dont load the css stuff for desktop etc
# [21:32] <Garbee> How do you solve that without server-side checking of the device?
# [21:32] <lampe3> so there would be a file layout_mobile.css and you could keep the style.css
# [21:32] <@Grephix> lampe3: I could kick lampe2, you would still however not be able to take that nickname as it's still connected to the server.
# [21:32] <DONVODKI> media query ?
# [21:32] <Garbee> DONVODKI, That is done clientside.
# [21:32] <lampe3> Grephix, its me and iam only once connected
# [21:33] * Grephix sets mode: +o Garbee
# [21:33] <lampe3> Garbee, yeah this is a problem !
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# [21:33] <@Garbee> It is used too, but you want to completely leave desktop stuff out.
# [21:33] <@Grephix> lampe3: I know, but the server still has not figured out you have been disconencted
# [21:33] <@Grephix> Ah, there it is
# [21:33] <@Grephix> disconnected*
# [21:33] <@Garbee> I have seen some PHP stuff that does that kind fo check, but it is still pretty new.
# [21:33] <DONVODKI> hmmmm
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# [21:33] <@Grephix> Garbee: and still not a 100% accurate
# [21:33] <@Grephix> Still screws up in quite some situations
# [21:34] <@Garbee> Grephix, Also true, plus the issue of what happen if the device orentation changes.
# [21:34] <DONVODKI> tumblr platform does have something
# [21:34] <@Grephix> Exactly
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# [21:34] <@Garbee> Then you don't have the proper stuff for the new view.
# [21:34] <lampe2> hmmm
# [21:34] <@Garbee> Basically I think we are still at crossroads with that kind of tech.
# [21:35] <lampe2> yeah
# [21:35] <lampe2> but i like this kind of tech stuff :)
# [21:35] <@Garbee> It has to be server-side though.
# [21:36] <@Garbee> Which is where the accuracy problem comes in.
# [21:36] <DONVODKI> ahh
# [21:36] <@Garbee> Unless perhaps we add some info to an HTTP request header.
# [21:36] <DONVODKI> media query helps a lot
# [21:36] <@Garbee> DONVODKI, client side yes. Not really the issue here.
# [21:36] <lampe2> DONVODKI, media query are client side
# [21:36] <@Garbee> We don't ever want the extra data getting to the client.
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# [21:37] <DONVODKI> for now is what we got...
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# [21:37] <lampe2> i think a smart ajax call could be a good start
# [21:37] <@Garbee> Basically we would need something added to the HTTP request header that tells the server supported device resolutions, then the server could use that info to send the proper stylesheet.
# [21:37] <DONVODKI> have you seen the tumblr theming code?
# [21:37] <@Garbee> ajax could work.
# [21:37] <DONVODKI> really?
# [21:37] <@Garbee> Then that would also not add headers.
# [21:38] <@Garbee> Well, add header info.
# [21:38] <lampe2> yeah http header could be a solution too
# [21:38] <@Garbee> Header would be a long-term super awesome one.
# [21:39] <@Garbee> No extra coding client-side needed.
# [21:39] <@Garbee> Transparent in all respects to the client.
# [21:39] <DONVODKI> interesting
# [21:39] <lampe2> yes and i think its smarter as media query
# [21:40] <@Garbee> DONVODKI, Just in case you haven't gotten it yet. Media Queries send *all* the data down to the client, then the client choses which rules to apply based on the query. We don't want any extra information going to the client.
# [21:40] <@Garbee> We want to target it server-side and send the exact informatoin needed.
# [21:40] <@Garbee> It reduces bandwidth usage on both ends and cycles on the clients end.
# [21:40] <DONVODKI> i got you Garbee, thanks for explanation
# [21:41] <@Garbee> Sorry it took a bit, was busy actually doing some thinking.
# [21:41] <DONVODKI> hehe
# [21:41] <@Garbee> I think an extra header addition would be the way to go personally. Would also be pretty easy to target in any given language.
# [21:41] <DONVODKI> im doing a sketch for my new website...
# [21:41] <lampe2> hmm maybe in the http header field Content-Type
# [21:42] <@Garbee> I think the problem is getting browser vendors to do that kind of stuff.
# [21:42] <@Garbee> Ok, that went offtopic too much.
# [21:43] <lampe2> yeah but i thought this platform is for this kinds of stuff :)
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# [21:43] <@Garbee> Ok, lets throw it under optimization ideas.
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# [21:44] <@Garbee> Ah, no it is on topic. Protocols were being talked about.
# [21:44] <@Garbee> We are going to cover some of those at some point.
# [21:44] <@Garbee> Not major right now since most devs don't really need that level of information.
# [21:45] <lampe2> i think its a future thing :)
# [21:45] <lampe2> with javascript you could do this right now: var os = navigator.platform;
# [21:45] <lampe2> and then if os bla do this
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# [21:48] <@Garbee> Well, you need to get screen sizes for something like Android.
# [21:48] <@Garbee> Where there are so many sizes.
# [21:49] <lampe2> ohhh yeah
# [21:49] <lampe2> i forgot that...
# [21:49] <@Garbee> uh-huh.
# [21:49] <@Garbee> Also it is faster to do it transparently server-side. That way the client never has to do anything.
# [21:50] <@Garbee> Except interpret the exact code.
# [21:50] <@Garbee> Overall, adding a header to HTTP with screen size would be ideal.
# [21:50] <@Garbee> er, header content.
# [21:50] <@Garbee> I need to get that right.
# [21:51] <lampe2> yeah http header would be great
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# [21:53] <@Garbee> You should be able to get screen resolution via javascript. I just think it is hacky and could even be slower then just sending the extra bits.
# [21:53] <lampe2> yes this is the problem Garbee
# [21:53] <Damianz> can't css3 handle multiple sizes of stuff and just get delt with in the rendering on the client?
# [21:54] <@Garbee> Damianz, I think you are referring to media queries.
# [21:54] <lampe2> Damianz, you got media querys
# [21:54] <lampe2> but we dont wanne send extra stuff to the client
# [21:54] <@Garbee> This would actually be a way to avoid them.
# [21:55] <Damianz> as you can tell, I develop backend stuff and don't really care about pretty :D
# [21:55] <@Garbee> lampe2, Actually, there is another problem with even doing header changes.
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# [21:55] <@Garbee> What happens with dual montiors?
# [21:55] <@Garbee> Moving a browser between them.
# [21:55] <lampe2> :D
# [21:55] <@Garbee> Also, resizing a browser.
# [21:56] <lampe2> yeah resizing
# [21:56] <@Garbee> Unless you hand desktop clients all the bits.
# [21:56] <@Garbee> And target phones to just get what they need.
# [21:56] <@Garbee> Either way, that is more work than just sending all the bits.
# [21:56] <@Garbee> Yea, a few KB extra. Could mean something if on 3G though.
# [21:57] <lampe2> depends on the size of the css
# [21:57] <@Garbee> True.
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# [21:57] <@Garbee> Oh well, nice chat but I have a few things I want to finish today.
# [21:57] <@Garbee> Because I am a great procrastinator.
# [21:59] <@Grephix> Garbee: very recognizable :<
# [21:59] <lampe2> :) no problem me too :D
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# [22:02] <Kradllit> Great chat, but why irc? I thought irc is dead
# [22:02] <Damianz> yes, irc is totally dead
# [22:02] * Damianz facepalms
# [22:03] <lampe2> haha
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# [22:03] <lampe2> Kradllit, tell me a good alternative ? :)
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# [22:03] <Damianz> XMPP (don't get me started)
# [22:04] <@Grephix> Kradllit: IRC and dead? It's still used daily on a global base mate :)
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# [22:04] <ravenzz> irc is awesome
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# [22:05] <@Grephix> with ravenzz
# [22:05] <Kradllit> Many information about jabber conference better then irc.
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# [22:07] <lampe2> yeah maybe xmpp is cool too but this is a kind of taste
# [22:07] <lampe2> I like IRC more :)
# [22:10] <lampe2> and irc is more minimal as xmpp
# [22:11] <lampe2> and i think there was a post that xmpp is very inefficient in one to many connections
# [22:11] <Kradllit> I have nothing against irc. Maybe it was wrong information :) (Sorry for my English, i am from Ukraine)
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# [22:14] <lampe2> :)
# [22:14] <lampe2> your english is okay
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# [22:22] <ravenzz> do someone know what is the state of this silly bug in WebKit browsers which cause the images alt text to disappear if the element width is less than the text lenght?
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# [22:25] <lampe2> ravenzz, do you got an example ?
# [22:28] <@Garbee> an image is 6px tall by 24px width and you have an alt name like "hereismyreallylongaltnamethatmakesnodamnsenseatall.whyareyoustillreadingthis?" The alt text normally should show, but since the text is longer than the image it wouldn't display.
# [22:28] <@Garbee> If I understand the bug properly.
# [22:28] <ravenzz> actually I found the bug report ticket, https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=5566 here is a quick example http://jsfiddle.net/gx6Wt/
# [22:28] <icaaq> Garbee: define show
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# [22:28] <ravenzz> Reported: 2005-10-30
# [22:28] <ravenzz> still there
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# [22:30] <@Garbee> icaaq, It should show the text.
# [22:30] <@Garbee> That is the spec. If no image found, display the alt text.
# [22:30] <lampe2> haha
# [22:30] <@Garbee> That is why alt text is required.
# [22:30] <lampe2> what a strange bug :D
# [22:30] <@Garbee> I love the last comment.
# [22:30] <@Garbee> That dude should get a +1 sticker.
# [22:31] <icaaq> yes, i understand now, didn't get it that it was a broken link
# [22:31] <ravenzz> what annoying bug I would say
# [22:32] <lampe2> opera only says fag but not company...
# [22:32] <lampe2> only firefox gets it right ...
# [22:33] <ravenzz> exactly
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# [22:35] <lampe2> midori/chromium/chrome they all got the same error... and i know that they are all webkit based
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# [22:36] <ravenzz> yes no way you can sort it out
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# [22:37] <ravenzz> => don't use images as logo
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# [22:37] <Damianz> well webkit is opensource so he could submit a patch then pull that patch into a custom build :D
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# [22:37] <lampe2> :D
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# [22:37] <lampe2> i would do the logo in css :)
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# [22:39] <gluxon> ravenzz: The only thing you can really do is find an alternative method, or help submit detail to get that bug fixed.
# [22:39] <David_Bradbury> CSS isn't meant for drawing graphics. If can be interesting for demo purposes, but shouldn't be done on an actual site.
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# [22:39] <ravenzz> gluxon well it is a known bug to me
# [22:39] <@Garbee> Canvas then?
# [22:39] <ravenzz> just recalling
# [22:39] * NorTomato is now known as NotTomato
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# [22:41] <lampe2> David_Bradbury, i mean to include it as a image in css and then add the text behind the picture. like it was done with telephone numbers and emails once
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# [22:42] <NotTomato> Hey guys.
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# [22:42] <chris_cook> good evening
# [22:42] <chris_cook> or whatever time it is there
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# [22:43] <ravenzz> lampe2 it is called image replacement, which is still not that good
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# [22:43] <lampe2> i know that it is not good :)
# [22:43] <lampe2> but it is a fix for now
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# [22:45] <NotTomato> chris_cook, it's 2:30 pm. o;
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# [22:45] <chris_cook> greetings from the future then
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# [22:46] <lampe2> her it is 10:35 pm :)
# [22:47] <chris_cook> 9.35pm here, so you've got me beat
# [22:47] <lampe2> :)
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# [22:55] <chris_cook> does anyone know the purpose of the various tags in the source code of the docs pages, i.e. {{Standardization_Status|}} and {{API_Name}} ?
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# [23:30] <Ricplan> Hola
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# [23:43] <Ricplan> hi
# [23:43] <@Garbee> Hello.
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# [23:51] <lampe2> hello Ricplan
# [23:52] <Ricplan> hello lampe2
# [23:57] <puppion> hello you
# [23:57] <puppion> i love you, webplatformers
# [23:59] * Damianz gets puppion a room
# [23:59] * @Garbee wants puppion in that room.
# Session Close: Mon Oct 15 00:00:00 2012

The end :)