/irc-logs / freenode / #webplatform / 2012-10-20 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Oct 20 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #webplatform
  3. # [00:00] * Quits: schalkneethling (~espressiv@105-236-78-240.access.mtnbusiness.co.za) (Quit: schalkneethling)
  4. # [00:00] <@Garbee> Yea, my concern is how to plug into it and how dependent is the site going to become to it. If there site is down for some reason then *we* don't have tables from it that could be bad.
  5. # [00:00] <@mdel> i can only assume the WPD site is cached...
  6. # [00:01] <@mdel> if not, then that's a good point
  7. # [00:01] <@Garbee> Yea, but just because our stuff is cached doesn't mean theirs will be. Also the cache is really only for anon users atm.
  8. # [00:01] <@Garbee> If our cache needs to refresh while theirs is down, ours gets empty tables.
  9. # [00:01] * Quits: sonotos (~sonotos@unixboard/users/sonotos) (Quit: http://webfrap.de weitercoden)
  10. # [00:01] <@Garbee> If we pull it then we should be dependent and not rely upon them at all times.
  11. # [00:02] <@Garbee> be independent*
  12. # [00:02] <@mdel> that's why I suggested API access being superior though
  13. # [00:02] <@mdel> so it could be pulled and integrated
  14. # [00:02] <@mdel> without relying on them at all times
  15. # [00:02] <@Garbee> Lets talk it over in the mailing list.
  16. # [00:02] <@mdel> just a thought, I think its a better solution IMO than duplicating effort
  17. # [00:02] <@mdel> +1
  18. # [00:02] <eighty4> Garbee: the one writing a plugin/modules/whatever for caniuse could just cache the response
  19. # [00:02] <@Garbee> eighty4, And if that cache needs to update and they are down for some reason? same problem.
  20. # [00:03] <eighty4> Garbee: a cache shouldn't clear if the source is down imo
  21. # [00:03] <@Garbee> They don't seem to be down much, but the problem still remains.
  22. # [00:03] <eighty4> better to serve an old cache response than nothing
  23. # [00:03] <@Garbee> Yea, it would depend upon exactly how that type of thing is integrated. Still, a discussion for the ML.
  24. # [00:04] <@mdel> i mean, any time you are integrating with an API you wouldn't let your data cache empty itself if the connection was down
  25. # [00:04] <@mdel> this would be no different of course
  26. # [00:04] <eighty4> it's not a problem imo.
  27. # [00:04] <eighty4> As long as we manage to get a single response from them we will have a some what ok cache version of their data
  28. # [00:04] <eighty4> if they take their site down after that it would be ok
  29. # [00:05] <@Garbee> Can we worry about to centralize or not to centralize and then worry about the specifics of how it is done?
  30. # [00:05] <@mdel> Garbee: if you want to mention it, I'll chime in (i know you are on point with mailing list emails:)
  31. # [00:05] <@mdel> Garbee: im all for centralizing if it can also be referenced easily
  32. # [00:06] <@mdel> I thik thats the "ideal world" Alex just mentioned on the list
  33. # [00:06] <@Garbee> We would reference via linking through the content.
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  36. # [00:06] <@Garbee> We can find other possible ways too if it is decided to centralize the tables.
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  38. # [00:06] <@mdel> centralizing the data on WPD and where the data comes from can be 2 different conversations of course
  39. # [00:07] <@Garbee> mdel, That is exactly what I'm getting at.
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  41. # [00:07] <@mdel> yeah I know
  42. # [00:07] <@Garbee> We are getting way ahead talking about how the data is put in when we haven't decided where exactly it will go.
  43. # [00:07] <@mdel> i would argue they are concurrent discussions
  44. # [00:08] <@mdel> again, ideally they would be centrally stored and referenceable, im with you on that
  45. # [00:08] <@mdel> where the data comes from is also a question, and my point is that if we can use *and* cache external data from caniuse, its something worth exploring
  46. # [00:09] <eighty4> so if all I want to say is a +1 on your suggestions should I just reply to your email or should I keep quite? I'm really uncomfortable using mailinglists :|
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  48. # [00:09] <@mdel> eighty4: use your judgement, if you have something to add, feel more than free to add
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  50. # [00:10] <@mdel> if its a question of "whats everyones opinion" +1s are fine
  51. # [00:10] * Quits: schalkneethling (~espressiv@105-236-78-240.access.mtnbusiness.co.za) (Client Quit)
  52. # [00:11] <@Garbee> eighty4, Yea, even +1 is fine. Being quite is worse then that.
  53. # [00:11] <@mdel> Garbee: one other point on external data: even if we just have a cron task that syncs up a page from caniuse, that would be better than maintaining it ourselves
  54. # [00:11] <@mdel> assuming we can pull via API, store it in a referenceable, central location, I think that would be "ideal"
  55. # [00:12] <@Garbee> mdel, Yea, I see the points for it. My thing is where will the effort for coding that system come from?
  56. # [00:12] <@mdel> I would be glad to take that on, for sure, but we'd need to flesh out how exactly it would work
  57. # [00:12] <@mdel> and THAT discussion may be premature right now
  58. # [00:12] <@Garbee> Having the cache of caniuse drop only on a successful valid response would be ideal to solve it.
  59. # [00:13] <@mdel> lets get concensus on central storage and move on from there
  60. # [00:13] <jkomoros> This problem gets quite complex in practice, I've found
  61. # [00:13] <@Garbee> I think though one thing they were thinking was to depreciate caniuse if webplatform did right.
  62. # [00:13] <@mdel> a recurring pull via cron would be great, because caniuse can go away and nothing changes for us except that we just need to update our page manually
  63. # [00:13] <jkomoros> because the level of granularity that folks want can differ widely depending on their current use case
  64. # [00:14] * Quits: groovecoder (~groovecod@wsip-70-184-255-50.ok.ok.cox.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  65. # [00:14] <jkomoros> My personal (pipe?) dream for the compat tables in WPD was that they'd be the most comprehensive and detailed
  66. # [00:14] <jkomoros> a
  67. # [00:14] <jkomoros> and that other people would remix the data, summarize it in different ways, etc
  68. # [00:15] <@Garbee> jkomoros, One thing I have seen is someone even explaining oddities in older IE. Like the table they added a note saying in IE8 a <p> ended if a <table> was encountered.
  69. # [00:15] <@Garbee> Things like that are paramount and much needed.
  70. # [00:15] <jkomoros> yeah
  71. # [00:15] <@Garbee> We need more of that in conjunction with pure "support".
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  73. # [00:15] <@mdel> there's that S word :)
  74. # [00:16] <jkomoros> About a year ago I sat down for a hard think on the right way to organize compat information
  75. # [00:16] <jkomoros> my conclusion was that it's surprisingly hard
  76. # [00:16] <jkomoros> and storing all of this data in semantic media wiki properties seems wrong
  77. # [00:16] * Quits: Guest13196 (~Volvox@149-169-104-215.nat.asu.edu) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  78. # [00:16] <jkomoros> because down the road you could imagine republishing it in other formats for easy remixing
  79. # [00:17] <jkomoros> but at the moment it seems to be the right approach. And at least this way the data is in _some_ sort of structur
  80. # [00:17] <jkomoros> so theoretically some sort of automatic conversion is possible
  81. # [00:17] <@mdel> thats another reason I'm thinking about caniuse
  82. # [00:17] <@mdel> https://github.com/Fyrd/caniuse/blob/master/features-json/audio.json
  83. # [00:17] <@mdel> the data format
  84. # [00:17] <@Garbee> We could microformat the data to make it easily pulled by a bot.
  85. # [00:18] <jkomoros> interesting
  86. # [00:18] <eighty4> Not sure I agree on the central storage first. If we're using caniuse via an api the "If we have tables in any page for elements listed then it isn't going to be easy later on to update them if needed" point isn't really valid
  87. # [00:18] <@mdel> the data isn't going anywhere, even if the site goes down... perhaps the whole site could be rolled into WPD
  88. # [00:18] <eighty4> so people might vote for central storage for the wrong reasons
  89. # [00:18] <jkomoros> eighty4: I'm not sure I follow
  90. # [00:18] <jkomoros> (sorry, I traipsed into this discussion a bit late)
  91. # [00:19] <@Garbee> eighty4, All depends on *how* it is integrated.
  92. # [00:19] <eighty4> jkomoros: one reason to have it centraliced would be to make it easier to maintain and update
  93. # [00:19] <eighty4> if we're using an api for it that point wouldn't be valid
  94. # [00:19] <jkomoros> mdel: That format doesn't have a good way of denoting that some bugs/quirks only apply to specific versions of specific browsers
  95. # [00:20] <jkomoros> eighty4: As in, if we didn't have any of the data on WPD and merely pulled it in from elsewhere?
  96. # [00:20] <@mdel> eighty4: its 2 parts... where the data comes from (initially, or ongoing) and how it can be referred to in Wikimedia
  97. # [00:20] <@Garbee> jkomoros, Those quirks are noted in their own table atm.
  98. # [00:20] <eighty4> Garbee: right, so to use or not to use caniuse would be an important question before answering centralization
  99. # [00:20] <@mdel> jkomoros: yeah there is a notes section
  100. # [00:20] <eighty4> jkomoros: right
  101. # [00:20] <jkomoros> Yeah, but it doesn't appear to (currently) be structured
  102. # [00:20] <@Garbee> eighty4, This is a chicken and egg situation.
  103. # [00:20] <eighty4> Garbee: or rather a we should answer both question at the same time.
  104. # [00:20] <@Garbee> jkomoros, It isn't. Appearencing aren't playing tricks.
  105. # [00:20] <@mdel> eighty4: not really though... if its centrally referenceable in mediawiki, it doesnt matter how we update that central storage
  106. # [00:20] <jkomoros> also, how does caniuse's data model handle things like box-shadow
  107. # [00:21] <@mdel> wether its manual or automatic via caniuse wont matter
  108. # [00:21] <@Garbee> Ok, lets push this into the ML. It is too much for here.
  109. # [00:21] <@mdel> agreed
  110. # [00:21] <@Garbee> Centralizing/caniuse conversation should be over at this point.
  111. # [00:21] <eighty4> mdel: exactly, but it if's not centralized it would really matter.
  112. # [00:21] <jkomoros> box-shadow is an example I often use of a complicated compat table
  113. # [00:21] <jkomoros> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/CSS/box-shadow
  114. # [00:21] <jkomoros> because there's the basic support, support for inset, support for multiple shadows, support for spread
  115. # [00:21] <jkomoros> a
  116. # [00:22] <jkomoros> nd all of those are related but distinct and somewhat independent
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  120. # [00:22] <eighty4> jkomoros: http://caniuse.com/#search=box-shadow
  121. # [00:23] <jkomoros> yeah, that's my point
  122. # [00:23] <jkomoros> that level of granularity isn't represented on caniuse
  123. # [00:23] <jkomoros> (unless I'm misreading it)
  124. # [00:23] <@mdel> doesnt look like it
  125. # [00:24] <@Garbee> Upper left of the table is "Show all versions".. It does support the prefixes.
  126. # [00:24] <@Garbee> Oh, the other stuff.
  127. # [00:25] <@Garbee> Yea, the individual features aren't there it seems.
  128. # [00:25] <jkomoros> yeah
  129. # [00:25] <@Garbee> Either way, it is irrelevent atm here.
  130. # [00:25] <jkomoros> that's my main worry with just pulling caniuse data
  131. # [00:25] * Quits: J_A_X (~xxx@165.254.84.238) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  132. # [00:26] <jkomoros> because then we can only ever be as good as caniuse data (unless the folks who run it want to collaborate on it)
  133. # [00:26] <jkomoros> although I do love that site
  134. # [00:27] <@mdel> jkomoros: ideally, we could use the data AND add the granular comments, have them integrated and centralized, and referenceable
  135. # [00:27] <@mdel> = dream world scenario
  136. # [00:27] <jkomoros> yeah
  137. # [00:27] <@mdel> not impossible though, something to think about
  138. # [00:28] <jkomoros> but in my experience, keeping two separate data sources like that synchronized is near impossible
  139. # [00:28] <@mdel> not synced. supplimented
  140. # [00:29] <jkomoros> sorry, that's what I meant
  141. # [00:29] <@mdel> integrating the data would be difficult (im not even sure what that would mean)
  142. # [00:29] <jkomoros> but to supplement correctly they have to be, on some level, synchronized
  143. # [00:30] <@mdel> but pulling it and supplimenting it, with both being stored "next to" eachother, would be easy
  144. # [00:30] <@mdel> (in my head)
  145. # [00:30] <jkomoros> agree that it _sounds_ easy
  146. # [00:30] <@mdel> like 1) pull data, store it in a column in the database 2) allow users to enter notes, store it in another column
  147. # [00:30] <@mdel> the difficulty I think you are speaking of is mashing the data together into a table, which I dont know is necessary
  148. # [00:30] <@mdel> unless im mistaken about what you mean
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  150. # [00:31] <jkomoros> even in that simple case you need, say, a way to add notes to something that doesn't exist in caniuse
  151. # [00:31] <jkomoros> and then in the future if the caniuse records change, and new things are added, or features names are changed or what have you, you need to go back and manually fix up the data
  152. # [00:32] <@mdel> jkomoros: yeah agreed, I think that could be handled... I also think the way I'm imagining it might not fit with how Media Wiki wants to store things
  153. # [00:32] <jkomoros> yeah
  154. # [00:32] <@Garbee> Head over to #webplatform-offtopic to continue this conversation please.
  155. # [00:32] <@mdel> either way, I was just throwing it out there... duplicating effort when a great resource already exists seems like a waste
  156. # [00:32] <@Garbee> I know it is kinda on-topic, but for now it should be handled via the ML.
  157. # [00:33] <@mdel> Garbee: i understand your point, but I see no problem in talking about it
  158. # [00:33] <jkomoros> I agree that this topic is better for the mailing list
  159. # [00:33] <jkomoros> or potentially as an agenda item as the inaugural community telcon next week
  160. # [00:34] <@mdel> ML is too slow for an active discussion... not sure why we would just stop talking and have the same discussion over a few days on the ML
  161. # [00:34] <@Garbee> I'd say lets see if we can't get it handled in the ML. If we can't then it could be a good topic for the telcon.
  162. # [00:34] <@Garbee> mdel, Because this is *not* an adhoc decision.
  163. # [00:34] <@mdel> right now, it kinda is
  164. # [00:34] <@Garbee> It needs thought from more people and in more detail.
  165. # [00:34] <@mdel> once we form opinions and get some info collected, then we take it to the ML
  166. # [00:34] <@mdel> yes, *exactly*
  167. # [00:35] <jkomoros> I agree that this is an important enough and complex topic that it warrants discussion in the telcon or mailing lists
  168. # [00:35] <@mdel> yeah I agree as well
  169. # [00:35] <@mdel> i just also dont see why we should just stop chatting about it
  170. # [00:35] <jkomoros> Garbee, did you ever get a chance to read http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/WPD:Implementation_Patterns
  171. # [00:35] <@mdel> bringing half-thought ideas/commentary to the ML does nothing for anyone
  172. # [00:36] <@Garbee> jkomoros, No.
  173. # [00:36] <@Garbee> mdel, Collect *your* thoughts and put them into the ML for a response.
  174. # [00:36] * Quits: litaaloc (~David@ip68-13-65-39.om.om.cox.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  175. # [00:36] <jkomoros> One of the things on my list of things to do is to spruce up that guide (it's a bit out of date) and then write another one that talks about how the main content templates are wired up
  176. # [00:37] <jkomoros> My goal is to have other folks understand how the templates/forms are all wired up so others can help improve them
  177. # [00:37] <@Garbee> Yea, I'm still not getting this form system in full.
  178. # [00:37] <mstalfoort> jkofoed, plz do, that would help a lot
  179. # [00:38] <@mdel> Garbee: yes of course... I'm just not sure why you suggested we move to offtopic
  180. # [00:38] <@mdel> little heavyhanded i think, but whatever
  181. # [00:38] <mstalfoort> jkomoros, plz do, that would help a lot
  182. # [00:38] <mstalfoort> sry jkofoed
  183. # [00:39] <jkomoros> Before the announcement I did a little "seminar" for folks where I reviewed that information
  184. # [00:39] <jkomoros> maybe I could do another one by phone for folks
  185. # [00:40] <jkomoros> Also, has anyone had a look at coremob's compat information: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuIhlK0fCwP4dEFPR1pUWHk1QVczcV9xbFAtX19CMXc.
  186. # [00:40] <jkomoros> Bringing that data into WPD could be a good starter project for folks
  187. # [00:41] <@mdel> jkomoros: nice, haven't seen that
  188. # [00:41] <jkomoros> Does someone want to add that to one of the "Looking for things to do?" type pages?
  189. # [00:43] <jkomoros> … slash does anyone have a pointer to that "most wanted tasks" page?
  190. # [00:43] <jkomoros> I can't remember what the URL is
  191. # [00:44] * @mdel brb, handling something
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  195. # [00:52] <mattkelly> is it worthwhile incorporating this into the site? https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuIhlK0fCwP4dEFPR1pUWHk1QVczcV9xbFAtX19CMXc
  196. # [00:52] <jkomoros> mattkelly: Are you trolling me?
  197. # [00:52] <mattkelly> jkomoros: huh? no
  198. # [00:52] <jkomoros> I literally JUST sent that ping to the list like 5 minutes ago
  199. # [00:52] <mattkelly> lol what
  200. # [00:52] <mattkelly> just read above
  201. # [00:53] <mattkelly> that's… very weird
  202. # [00:53] <jkomoros> very weird
  203. # [00:53] <mattkelly> twins separate at birth?
  204. # [00:53] <jkomoros> like 1.5 months ago I put an action item on my calendar for today
  205. # [00:53] <jkomoros> clearly
  206. # [00:53] <mattkelly> I just pasted it into an internal group here at facebok
  207. # [00:53] <mattkelly> and was like "maybe wpd would like this"
  208. # [00:53] <jkomoros> I
  209. # [00:54] <jkomoros> 'm going to add it as a good task people can help out with
  210. # [00:54] <jkomoros> so folks at a hackathon or something can work on it
  211. # [00:54] <mattkelly> cool
  212. # [00:54] <mattkelly> the "j" in your username threw me off for a min
  213. # [00:55] <jkomoros> yeah, my real name's john, and jkomoros is the username I was given at college so I just use it for everything now
  214. # [00:57] <mattkelly> got it
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  233. # [01:23] <@Garbee> mattkelly, Well worth bringing in.
  234. # [01:24] <@Garbee> Just not sure exactly where except for "within mobile" which is pretty vague.
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  236. # [01:29] <@Garbee> I need to figure out who around here does what so when people bring things up in areas I don't know I can ping them.
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  253. # [02:14] <eighty4> Garbee: Good searchable profiles on wpf would help for that
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  256. # [02:16] <@Garbee> The problem is getting people to fill theirs in. And honestly I'm not going to ask people to do so. I think more people should chat about what they do so I can log and reference it. ;)
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  258. # [02:20] <eighty4> Garbee: I'm a frontend/backend dev atm mostly coding in kohana and drupal as backend. html/css/javascript for the front-end. Been at it as work for 3 years or so
  259. # [02:21] <eighty4> oh, and I live in a smallish town in Sweden
  260. # [02:21] <eighty4> :P
  261. # [02:21] <eighty4> That's what i "do"
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  405. # [11:23] <amirouche> héllo o/
  406. # [11:24] <amirouche> does Longpolling and websocket patterns a possible wiki page of WPD ?
  407. # [11:24] <amirouche> I mean just «longpolling», websockets being only an implementation
  408. # [11:25] <amirouche> if so where does it feet in current wiki directory ?
  409. # [11:25] <amirouche> Garbee, :-) ^
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  427. # [12:41] <lampe2> hello my friends
  428. # [13:00] <@varl> hello there
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  471. # [16:49] <shepazu> morning, platformers
  472. # [16:51] <metasansana> morn
  473. # [16:54] <mike5w3c> shepazu: I stoled the logo for this shopping mall I made in Yokohama
  474. # [16:54] <mike5w3c> http://www.yim.co.jp/index.html
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  476. # [16:55] <shepazu> mike5w3c: I really wish you'd asked me first…. I might have liked to invest in a Japanese shopping mall...
  477. # [16:56] <mike5w3c> too late man I got all the cash I needed from my yakuza buddies
  478. # [16:56] <shepazu> I like how that jack-o-lantern continues the theme, with the hat that says "WP"
  479. # [16:57] <mike5w3c> yep that's one of those kinds of things us designer do
  480. # [16:57] <shepazu> mike5w3c: there are a lot of very similar logos, actually
  481. # [16:58] <mike5w3c> now you should steal that jack-o-lantern back and make it the main logo for webplatform.org
  482. # [16:58] <shepazu> it ensaddens me
  483. # [16:58] <mike5w3c> heh
  484. # [16:58] <shepazu> I'll add this one to the list :)
  485. # [16:58] <mike5w3c> people should just think for themselves instead of copying your thoughts
  486. # [16:59] <shepazu> yeah, that's just what I was thinking
  487. # [16:59] <mike5w3c> including any people who may have thought of it before you did
  488. # [16:59] <mike5w3c> hah
  489. # [16:59] <shepazu> I thought you'd say that
  490. # [16:59] <mike5w3c> ah ho you stealing my thoughts now man
  491. # [17:00] <mike5w3c> or I am pre-emptingly stealing them from you
  492. # [17:00] <mike5w3c> before you think of them
  493. # [17:00] <shepazu> yes, I'm stealing them before you have them, then replacing them with cheap knock-off thoughts
  494. # [17:00] <mike5w3c> hah
  495. # [17:01] <mike5w3c> I am like future Spock in that tiny ship and you are Eric Bana chasing me
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  498. # [17:07] <geem> hiyas
  499. # [17:07] <geem> am home
  500. # [17:07] <geem> good to see all of you
  501. # [17:08] <@Garbee> mike5w3c, Is this the future Spock of the new movie or of the old series?
  502. # [17:09] <mike5w3c> the movie one, because shepazu was not in the TV series
  503. # [17:09] <@Garbee> ah, Eric was the actor.
  504. # [17:09] <shepazu> it's true, I was too young
  505. # [17:10] <@Garbee> False. Time travel is involved. You are never too young nor too old because we don't really know anything about age at this point.
  506. # [17:10] <@Garbee> Doctor Who has proven that.
  507. # [17:10] <@Garbee> Keeps getting older, but with every incarnation he is younger and more energeitc.
  508. # [17:10] <@Garbee> energetic*
  509. # [17:12] <mike5w3c> a lot of people think the guy from The Alternative Factor TV episode is kind of a proto-shepazu
  510. # [17:12] <mike5w3c> Lazurus
  511. # [17:12] <mike5w3c> http://www.startrek.com/legacy_media/images/200303/tos-020-lazurus/320x240.jpg
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  513. # [17:13] <mike5w3c> it's possible he pre-emptively tried to steal future shepazu facial hair style
  514. # [17:13] <mike5w3c> but he didn't get it quite right
  515. # [17:13] <@Garbee> I don't see why somone would want too...
  516. # [17:13] <@Garbee> to*
  517. # [17:14] <mike5w3c> I think he copied shepazu work style pretty well though
  518. # [17:14] <mike5w3c> http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3026/2558058289_8ca8b1efaf.jpg
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  520. # [17:14] <mike5w3c> that picture shows shepazu usual state
  521. # [17:14] <@Garbee> What would that be? Always lean and have a beer in hand?
  522. # [17:14] <mike5w3c> yeah! like that
  523. # [17:14] <mike5w3c> well beverage of some kind
  524. # [17:14] <@Garbee> And look at how short those Trekkie skirts are..
  525. # [17:15] <geem> hiya peeps
  526. # [17:15] <mike5w3c> looking thoughtful
  527. # [17:15] <mike5w3c> he geem
  528. # [17:15] <geem> i goto school bout to graduate with my aa in web design
  529. # [17:15] <geem> art institute
  530. # [17:16] <geem> i been in chatrooms like this since 96
  531. # [17:16] <geem> i hope to contribute although i am afk a lot
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  533. # [17:18] <geem> ello trev
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  536. # [17:26] <Jayflux> heyo
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  575. # [19:01] <daleharvey> hey, anyone familiar with transactions in indexeddb? I am wondering when the transactions are supposed to be closed
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  584. # [19:21] <Jayflux> daleharvey I think #web are doing support, here is for the documentation.
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  586. # [19:25] <daleharvey> Jayflux: cheers
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  660. # [21:41] * cpg|away is now known as cpg
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  707. # Session Close: Sun Oct 21 00:00:00 2012

The end :)