/irc-logs / freenode / #webplatform / 2012-11-16 / end

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  78. # [03:08] <@arkhi> Good morning…
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  375. # [15:24] <shepazu> Garbee: what would you think of turning back on the IRC webchat?
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  379. # [15:33] <sonotos> shepazu: are you bored somehow? :-) sounds little like :-)
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  381. # [15:33] <shepazu> sonotos: nope, I just want to enable that when it's appropriate :)
  382. # [15:34] <shepazu> I'm actually kind of overwhelmed :)
  383. # [15:34] <sonotos> why? :-)
  384. # [15:37] * ChanServ sets mode: +o shepazu
  385. # [15:39] <@shepazu> fr0zenice: thanks
  386. # [15:39] <@fr0zenice> yeah, that bugged me for weeks! :P
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  391. # [15:40] <@shepazu> fr0zenice: it bugged you that I wasn't an op? :P
  392. # [15:40] <@shepazu> or that something was wrong on the internet? :D
  393. # [15:40] <@fr0zenice> yes! always had to scroll down to see if you are in this chan :D
  394. # [15:40] <@shepazu> fr0zenice: ahhhh
  395. # [15:43] <@NotTomato> Hi.
  396. # [15:43] <@fr0zenice> hi!
  397. # [15:43] <@shepazu> hey, NotTomato!
  398. # [15:43] <sonotos> hi NotTomato
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  405. # [15:54] <@Garbee> shepazu, I would want to test the config first.
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  407. # [15:55] <@Garbee> fr0zenice, You would hate me then if I deopped myself. ;)
  408. # [15:56] <@fr0zenice> probably!
  409. # [15:56] <@Garbee> Too much email to write today... :(
  410. # [15:57] <@Garbee> Good thing that is all this verizon connection is good for.
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  416. # [16:21] <@Garbee> Anyone in here an SEO expert?
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  460. # [17:42] <@Garbee> shepazu, Are translation pages supposed to be coming online now?
  461. # [17:43] <@shepazu> Garbee: we're doing some experiments
  462. # [17:43] <@Garbee> Looks like Japanease is getting tested. http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/beginners
  463. # [17:43] <@shepazu> yup
  464. # [17:43] <@shepazu> not yet ready for prime time, just testing
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  466. # [17:43] <@Sandkorn> Weekend! 'till Monday, folks.. :-)
  467. # [17:44] <@Garbee> Ok, just making sure it wasn't a misfire.
  468. # [17:44] <@Garbee> That section of the site is driving me nuts.
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  470. # [17:44] <@Garbee> I want to clean it up, but still am not completely grasping the difference of a Guide and Tutorial.
  471. # [17:46] <@Garbee> We should get Guide added to http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/WPD:Getting_Started#Content_types
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  474. # [17:48] <@Garbee> I think what people are thinking of Guides as we could just call them reference material. Like an HTML Text Guide would be reference material.
  475. # [17:49] <mike5w3c> Garbee: eh? I thought that /concepts was meant to be what "guide" is at MDN
  476. # [17:50] <mike5w3c> and that /concepts sorta combines tutorial and reference info
  477. # [17:50] * @Garbee sighs.
  478. # [17:50] <@Garbee> This where we need a big I/A meeting.
  479. # [17:50] <@Garbee> I have no idea what the original intention was.
  480. # [17:51] <@Garbee> Let me go see what MDN has for guides though and see what they were doing.
  481. # [17:52] <mike5w3c> I talked to Chris Mills about this last month
  482. # [17:52] <mike5w3c> and from what he said I thought the /concepts area was supposed to combine tutorial and reference info
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  485. # [17:54] <@Garbee> Here is a forms guide from MDN: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/HTML/Forms
  486. # [17:54] <@Garbee> What I'm seeing is links to tutorials and a list of elements pertaining to the issue at hand.
  487. # [17:55] <mike5w3c> yeah
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  490. # [17:57] <mike5w3c> in my previous life as a technical writer I have to say I think tech writers prefer a clean separation between reference and tutorial docs
  491. # [17:57] <mike5w3c> but customers do not
  492. # [17:57] <mike5w3c> or "end users" or whatever you want to call them
  493. # [17:58] <@Garbee> Clean Separation is great, but we need things *like* that for people learning who don't know how to navigate technical docs too well.
  494. # [17:59] <mike5w3c> well
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  496. # [17:59] <mike5w3c> I think that's most of the people
  497. # [17:59] <mike5w3c> are at least the most important target
  498. # [17:59] <@Garbee> I think we should separate as much as possible and then have guides done like MDN.
  499. # [17:59] <@Garbee> I'm also thinking separation makes it easier for maintenance and administration.
  500. # [17:59] <mike5w3c> sure it does
  501. # [18:00] <mike5w3c> but that should never trump end users
  502. # [18:00] <mike5w3c> those ones who can't navigate technical docs well
  503. # [18:00] <mike5w3c> power users and figure out how to navigate it all regardless of how you structure it
  504. # [18:00] <@Garbee> Could we make aids to help people learn how to traverse the docs?
  505. # [18:01] <@Garbee> I'm sure we could once things are worked out a little more as far as I/A.
  506. # [18:01] <mike5w3c> I/A?
  507. # [18:01] <@Garbee> Information Architecture.
  508. # [18:01] <mike5w3c> ah yeah
  509. # [18:01] <mike5w3c> I think that's a bad word
  510. # [18:02] <@Garbee> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19342
  511. # [18:02] <mike5w3c> to me from my tech-writer experience "Information Architecture" is most often only used by people who are really out of touch with real-world customer needs
  512. # [18:03] <@Garbee> I'm just thinking of it as content organization.
  513. # [18:03] <mike5w3c> yeah
  514. # [18:03] <mike5w3c> that's a lot more understandable way to describe it
  515. # [18:03] <@Garbee> I'm not sure what the exact technical wording for a description is, but simply put it is the way we organize content to me.
  516. # [18:04] <@Garbee> Like the API talks going on in the Mailing List, we need to figure that out before proceeding with docs trying to help people navigate.
  517. # [18:04] <mike5w3c> I think "content organization" is the perfect description
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  519. # [18:05] <@Garbee> Wow, the Wikipedia I/A definition makes it sound like a dictatorship when using I/A.
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  521. # [18:07] <@Garbee> Personally, I don't care what we call it. We just need to get things organized and decide on a structure pretty quickly.
  522. # [18:07] <@Garbee> I think it is mostly there, we just need to cover the finer details.
  523. # [18:07] <mike5w3c> yeah I think some asshats tried to trademark "Information Architecture"
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  525. # [18:08] <mike5w3c> I think in the end if the structure is consistent at least, the users can figure out how to deal with it
  526. # [18:09] <mike5w3c> oh christ the "Information Architecture Institute"
  527. # [18:09] <@Garbee> haha
  528. # [18:09] <mike5w3c> something having an Institute is almost always as sign of it being FUBAR
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  533. # [18:21] <@Garbee> NotTomato, Where is that list of accepted HTML tags for MediWiki markup again?
  534. # [18:22] <@Garbee> I need to bookmark it since every time I go to find it I spend half an hour doing it.
  535. # [18:22] <@fr0zenice> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:HTML_in_wikitext#Permitted_HTML
  536. # [18:22] <@fr0zenice> at least for wikipedia
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  538. # [18:22] <@fr0zenice> alternatively http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:HTML_in_wikitext#Permitted_HTML
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  540. # [18:23] <@Garbee> Second one is it, thanks fr0zenice.
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  567. # [18:58] <@shepazu> maybe we should have a page of our accepted HTML, fr0zenice, Garbee?
  568. # [18:59] <@NorTomato> o;
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  570. # [19:01] <@Garbee> shepazu, I'm filing a bug report in a bit for the Editor's Guide. I will have that as a proposal to that.
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  572. # [19:03] <@Garbee> Once my laptop battery charges I'm going to get cracking on that report.
  573. # [19:04] <@Garbee> I think that we should not only have a page of accepted HTML but actually make it our standard that it gets used.
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  575. # [19:05] <@Garbee> It looks like sanitize.php could even be edited to allow more markup. The only things I urge against allowing outright are anchors and scripts. Nothing else comes to mind that could cause security risks for allowing.
  576. # [19:05] <@Garbee> anchors I would like to keep in wikimarkup so we can have them standard as far as target setting. Which was brought up in a bug report.
  577. # [19:06] <@Garbee> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19221
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  587. # [19:18] <@Garbee> shepazu, Since the WPD:Architecture page is outdated do you mind if it gets repurposed for the Editor's Guide to give more detailed explination of content types within the docs?
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  589. # [19:19] <@shepazu> Garbee: fine by me!
  590. # [19:19] <@Garbee> Cool, I'm going to make a web of bug reports for the Editor's Guide. See how well it goes over.
  591. # [19:20] <@Garbee> It is a multi-part thing to create a good Editor's Guide. So compared to having one report try to handle it all I'm going to make one to introduce the idea and for discussion as a whole, and then sub-reports basically for the individual components.
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  594. # [19:27] <@Garbee> Ah, this is one cool thing Bugzilla does: http://bit.ly/ZYMLyI
  595. # [19:27] <@Garbee> Easy way to look at bugs with the most duplicates.
  596. # [19:27] <@Garbee> Basically a FAQ for bugs. ;)
  597. # [19:30] <@fr0zenice> Frequently Announced Quirks!
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  599. # [19:34] <@Garbee> Especially the session issues.
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  603. # [19:39] <@Garbee> hmm... Looks like we could use bugzilla as a tracker and have it directly integrated with MediaWiki on the site. https://github.com/mozilla/mediawiki-bugzilla
  604. # [19:40] <@Garbee> Ah, it is read-only.
  605. # [19:40] <@fr0zenice> yep
  606. # [19:41] <@Garbee> Still, if we could get SSO working with bugzilla easily... Then it may be worth just using that.
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  611. # [19:46] <@shepazu> meh.
  612. # [19:47] <bloof> looking at bugzilla makes me want to jump off a cliff
  613. # [19:47] <@ravenzz> :D
  614. # [19:47] <@shepazu> bloof: it make me want to throw the developer off a cliff
  615. # [19:48] <@Garbee> We can theme it. But looking at the feature list it looks like W3 is using a pretty outdated version or they just disabled a lot of features.
  616. # [19:48] <@shepazu> it really put the sux in UX
  617. # [19:48] <bloof> they had a redesign competition like a year ago i htink
  618. # [19:48] <bloof> then never did anything with it
  619. # [19:49] <@Garbee> It is UX hell, but pretty functional from their latest releases.
  620. # [19:49] <@ravenzz> a bug is something annoying anyway :]
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  656. # [21:18] <@Garbee> Hello Ryan_Lane. How was the vacation?
  657. # [21:24] <@Ryan_Lane> Garbee: was good
  658. # [21:24] <@Ryan_Lane> nothing bad happened while I was gone, I presume? :)
  659. # [21:24] <@Garbee> The site didn't go down at all thankfully.
  660. # [21:24] <@Ryan_Lane> great :)
  661. # [21:24] <@Garbee> Well, I think there was one cache issue at some point for me, but a refresh a few minutes later was good.
  662. # [21:25] <@fr0zenice> wb Ryan! :)
  663. # [21:25] <@Garbee> We are talking about self-hosting a bug-tracker/project mangement solution in more detail which we need to get you looped in on.
  664. # [21:25] <@Ryan_Lane> thanks :)
  665. # [21:25] * @Ryan_Lane nods
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The end :)