/irc-logs / freenode / #webplatform / 2012-11-21 / end

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  233. # [11:36] <Arkkis> What has happened to this channel? Did the discussion move elsewhere? :)
  234. # [11:37] <@Garbee> Nah, just slowed down after the initial buzz.
  235. # [11:37] <@Garbee> Also mailing list.
  236. # [11:38] <@Garbee> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webplatform/
  237. # [11:38] <Arkkis> I see
  238. # [11:38] <Arkkis> hey, does anyone know a good preprocessor for html?
  239. # [11:39] <Arkkis> hammerformac.com has a neat idea how to build sites and I'm looking for something similar, but open source
  240. # [11:39] <@Garbee> I have seen some, never used them. I'm sure the people in #web would offer some advice on them.
  241. # [11:39] * @Garbee does not like HTML Preprocessors.
  242. # [11:39] <@Garbee> CSS, I'm there.
  243. # [11:39] <Arkkis> Garbee, why?
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  245. # [11:39] <@Garbee> I just don't like them. Personal thing.
  246. # [11:40] <Arkkis> I mean, for building quick prototypes, I'd rather not learn a new language like haml, but also rather not write the same navigation to multiple pages
  247. # [11:40] <@Garbee> That is where I just use PHP.
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  249. # [11:41] <Arkkis> well, PHP preprocessing would be one option
  250. # [11:41] <Arkkis> I'd just like to produce clean html easily, maybe building my own approach with php includes could work
  251. # [11:42] <@Garbee> I mainly just hate the syntax for HTML abstraction stuff.
  252. # [11:42] <@Garbee> Tags are simple and just fine.
  253. # [11:42] <@Garbee> I do use zen-coding a bit though.
  254. # [11:43] <Arkkis> I use zen coding too, and sublime text 2 to handle it (well, emmet is the new zen code)
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  257. # [11:46] <dahlfors> indeed php would be mostly useful for that
  258. # [11:47] <dahlfors> one include for header
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  260. # [11:51] <Arkkis> so, to build manually what hammerformac is doing, would require scanning trough the project files for .php files, running php executable for each and outputting the results to the build-folder. Then checking for changes and building new stuff when needed.
  261. # [11:51] <@Garbee> Arkkis, Also preprocessors and markup syntaxes do different things. PHP = a preprocessor, it makes sharing components easy. HAML = Markup syntax, it changes the way you write markup, it doesn't share it across many pages.
  262. # [11:51] <Arkkis> ah
  263. # [11:52] <@Garbee> Hammer is basically PHP but different syntax to make it easier for people who don't know server-side languages.
  264. # [11:52] <@Garbee> And no, PHP can be done live, no need to really build things.
  265. # [11:52] <@Garbee> You just change it and it works on-the-fly.
  266. # [11:53] <@Garbee> You can get PHP SASS stuff if you want to use SASS serverside and serve CSS (which you should.)
  267. # [11:53] <@Garbee> But yea, I'm sensing a confusion of technologies.
  268. # [11:53] <Arkkis> well, missing LESS support in hammer is one thing that annoys me
  269. # [11:53] <@Garbee> SCSS > LESS
  270. # [11:54] <@Garbee> ;)
  271. # [11:54] <@Garbee> There is LESS PHP if you really want it though.
  272. # [11:54] <Arkkis> well, I'd prefer not to use PHP at all :)
  273. # [11:54] <@Garbee> Well, if you want to share components you really should use some kind of server-side language.
  274. # [11:54] <Arkkis> but for such small things and generating html it should be ok
  275. # [11:55] <@Garbee> Why so adverse to using PHP?
  276. # [11:55] <Arkkis> I know, I'd just love to have HTML as output, as it's quite universal
  277. # [11:55] <@Garbee> Uh, PHP outputs HTML.
  278. # [11:55] <ravenz> ..
  279. # [11:55] <Arkkis> Garbee, I know
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  281. # [11:55] <ravenz> Arkkis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model%E2%80%93view%E2%80%93controller
  282. # [11:56] <Arkkis> I mean, I'd prefer to have the server serve static files instead of generating them on the fly
  283. # [11:56] <ravenz> if you go for an mvc framework you will have the possibility of create template blocks
  284. # [11:56] <ravenz> you can use, reuse and abuse whenever you like
  285. # [11:56] <@Garbee> Cacheing Arkkis.
  286. # [11:56] <Arkkis> ravenz, what do you suggest?
  287. # [11:56] * ravenz is now known as ravenzz
  288. # [11:57] <@Garbee> Do it once, cache it until things change.
  289. # [11:57] <@Garbee> Or for a certain amount of time.
  290. # [11:57] <@Garbee> Don't worry about on-the-fly generation. Especially on small projects it is fast. Even for massive stuff, you can optimize.
  291. # [11:57] <ravenzz> the html preprocessor is a bad idea imho btw
  292. # [11:58] <Arkkis> ravenzz, why? (remember we're talking about quick prototyping here)
  293. # [11:58] <@Garbee> Also, don't worry about MVC stuff. You should just make simple includes stuff, no need for MVC unless you really want overkill for smaller projects.
  294. # [11:58] <ravenzz> it is already that simple to write html that you don't need a preprocessor
  295. # [11:59] <ravenzz> for quick prototyping, you can use some (dirty) framework like bootstrap
  296. # [11:59] <@Garbee> Bootstrap is dirty?
  297. # [11:59] <@Garbee> Ok, not the place for that.
  298. # [11:59] <ravenzz> I would emphatise the word prototyping anyway
  299. # [11:59] <Arkkis> ravenzz, I'm trying to figure out a cost effective way to do really quick, small, prototypes with repeating headers and such. Have it work as lightweight as possible (maybe even without a server, just by sending a zip to someone to check locally)
  300. # [12:00] <ravenzz> people tends to prototype and then move on
  301. # [12:01] <ravenzz> Arkkis are you talking about front-end stuff right?
  302. # [12:01] <Arkkis> ravenzz, did you mean that the prototype is the final code and sucks unneededly as such?
  303. # [12:01] <Arkkis> ravenzz, yes
  304. # [12:01] <ravenzz> yep it happens :)
  305. # [12:01] <Arkkis> yep, seen it happen too often :)
  306. # [12:01] <ravenzz> Arkkis then use one of the available frameworks
  307. # [12:02] <ravenzz> Skeleton, Bootstrap, Foundation
  308. # [12:02] <ravenzz> are the most popular I guess
  309. # [12:02] <Arkkis> I am using bootstrap
  310. # [12:03] <Arkkis> it does not solve the header/footer/nav issue of repeating myself
  311. # [12:03] <ravenzz> so are you looking for a way to have markup blocks into static html?
  312. # [12:04] <Arkkis> one way to keep prototypes from creeping to production would be to stay away from mvc and "real" server side solutions
  313. # [12:04] <Arkkis> ravenzz, yes, with maybe some variables
  314. # [12:04] <Arkkis> to handle the <title> in header etc
  315. # [12:04] <ravenzz> well it is not possible in HTML
  316. # [12:05] <@arkhi> Arkkis: You have built in Apache modules for this if you use apache.
  317. # [12:05] <ravenzz> you can use a templating engine
  318. # [12:05] <Arkkis> hmm
  319. # [12:05] <ravenzz> like mustache, or the jquery one
  320. # [12:05] <Arkkis> I'll check out those
  321. # [12:06] <@Garbee> This really should go to #webplatform-offtopic or #web now.
  322. # [12:06] <Arkkis> alright, sorry
  323. # [12:06] <ravenzz> arkhi if I understood correctly he is looking for a way to build static pages, server indipendent
  324. # [12:06] <ravenzz> yep I agree
  325. # [12:06] <ravenzz> back to work ;)
  326. # [12:07] <Arkkis> thanks for a good talk, it seems that we got the channel live again with my stupid questions. So what's happening on the webplatform front these days? (or should I just read the mailing list? :)
  327. # [12:07] <Arkkis> ravenzz, and yes, you understood me right
  328. # [12:07] <@Garbee> I'd dig through the Mailing list. Get more detail.
  329. # [12:08] <Arkkis> k
  330. # [12:08] <Arkkis> :)
  331. # [12:10] <@Garbee> You may want to start on this thread. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webplatform/2012Nov/0176.html
  332. # [12:13] <Arkkis> I'm constantly amazed at this iniative and peoples (+companies) commitment to it
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  409. # [15:15] <odinho> Trying both google Math.round webplatform, and searching for round and math.round on webplatform doesn't give me a reference on it.
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  413. # [15:29] <mstalfoort> odinho, there is some here http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/concepts/programming/javascript/core_objects
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  415. # [15:32] <mstalfoort> my guess is it would be accessible @ http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/concepts/programming/javascript/core_objects/Math/round with deeper info, since the page cannot be found you have the option to create it :)
  416. # [15:32] <mstalfoort> odinho, ^
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  434. # [16:20] <@chrismills> hello everyone
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  442. # [16:34] <@Garbee> Hey Chris.
  443. # [16:34] <@chrismills> Hi Garbee!
  444. # [16:35] <@chrismills> I am still sifting through chaos, but I think I am gonna start getting major movement soon on WPD stuff. I got a good feeling about this week ;-)
  445. # [16:37] <@Garbee> I started thinking the other day of doing Roadmaps. Like trying to get people focused in one area of editing for some time, then switch to another and repeat.
  446. # [16:37] <@Garbee> Then people who are doing a lot of editing can make their own Roadmaps, either for those sections or on their own that way others can see who is focusing where.
  447. # [16:38] <@Garbee> Then again just a good project managment tool would handle it. I'm trying to make Bugzilla work as one for now.
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  449. # [16:39] <@chrismills> Yeah, sounds like a good idea
  450. # [16:39] <@chrismills> Garbee - that would fit in nicely with my idea of doing an overall roadmap of all the subjects we want to include, and when to get them done by
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  453. # [16:40] <@chrismills> good for a high level game plan, as well as an overall project indicator
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  455. # [16:41] <@Garbee> I'm focusing now on cleaning up what is the current Beginners guide. I really want to actually rewrite it in whole to make it more like a targeted course.
  456. # [16:41] <@chrismills> I would love to see that
  457. # [16:41] <@Garbee> I don't see the current one too great for most. It really just throws information out and hopes someone can figure out how to utilize it.
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  459. # [16:41] <@Garbee> I'll be updating this later today with more of a content outline. https://github.com/Garbee/webplatform/blob/master/content/Beginners%20Guide/outline.rtf
  460. # [16:42] <@Garbee> Right now it is really just nonsense.
  461. # [16:42] <@chrismills> Garbee - yeah, at the moment it's just a bunch of stuff from the old web standards curriculum
  462. # [16:42] <@chrismills> doesn't work that well because it is mostly taken out of context
  463. # [16:42] <@Garbee> Yup. And a few other issues.
  464. # [16:43] <@chrismills> Garbee - your initial idea sounds good
  465. # [16:43] <@Garbee> As said in my outline, I'm thinking a targeted build of a reciepe page. I saw that somewhere in the docs and think it is a great example page to build to show off many different functions of different elements.
  466. # [16:43] <@chrismills> yeah, it is a good archetype
  467. # [16:44] <@Garbee> No JS up front either. Have an extension to use something like jquery/jquery UI to give legacy IE support. Just to show one basic aspect/use of JavaScript and get people used to frameworks. But, I know some have issues with that type of teaching so it would need discussion before doing it that way.
  468. # [16:45] <@Garbee> Unless we make a calculator in the page somehow, that would be a cool JS thing to do.
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  474. # [16:55] <@chrismills> Nice thinking, Garbee - kind of works everything together into a realistic package
  475. # [16:56] <@chrismills> more of a taste of what a real project would be l;ike
  476. # [16:56] <@chrismills> although you do have to be careful with that kinda stuff, when talking to beginners
  477. # [16:57] <@Garbee> Yea, legacy IE stuff would just be a hint. Like hey, this was built with the latest web standards in mind and browsers that were built before these standards may not support everything. For instance Internet Explorer 7. We can support this... yatta yatta yatta.
  478. # [16:58] <@Garbee> But, that would just be an extra thing towards the end. I actually would love to not mention it and let people find out about legacy browser support on their own as-needed. But that is because I'm personally against it.
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  495. # [17:16] <@Garbee> chris, I'm thinking for the beginners guide we could demo Adobe Brackets. It is still alpha currently (our docs still are so it isn't that big of an issue right now) but shaping up to be a great editor, especially for beginners.
  496. # [17:18] <@Garbee> Well, actually I have no idea what I was thinking. We are just going to put the source directly in the wiki.
  497. # [17:18] <u89> What competence should a good web-developer have ?
  498. # [17:18] <@Garbee> u89, Define competence in this situation.
  499. # [17:19] <@Garbee> Also I'm not sure I like where this is going, but lets see.
  500. # [17:19] <u89> Garbee: knowledge, skills and behavior...
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  502. # [17:20] <@Garbee> It really depends on the project at hand and a few other factors. No real general rule of thumb.
  503. # [17:22] <u89> You are right about that
  504. # [17:24] <u89> but in general ?
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  508. # [17:26] <@Garbee> There is no general to me. The web can handle too many different types of content with different focuses.
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  511. # [17:28] <u89> thanks
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  528. # [18:14] <odinho> mstalfoort: Have to think about SEO for these things. Having it in the URL like MDN global/Math/round/ really helps I think.
  529. # [18:15] <odinho> I would think that massive article, could very well be spread into one for each object at least.
  530. # [18:16] <@Garbee> We have a lot of content imported from a lot of areas.
  531. # [18:16] <@Garbee> We are still getting things straight and figuring out how the URLs/information are actually going to be structured.
  532. # [18:17] <@Garbee> I think what they are talking about now does follow that kind of structure.
  533. # [18:17] <odinho> :-) I was just sad that I couldn't find it in webplatform even though I searched for it several places.
  534. # [18:18] <@Garbee> Did you eventually find it? I'm not seeing any reference for it myself.
  535. # [18:18] <@Garbee> Well, any page for it. I find plenty of things around the site in source doing it.
  536. # [18:18] <odinho> Garbee: Nope, I didn't. But I vented here and got a reply.
  537. # [18:19] <odinho> 15:26 < mstalfoort> odinho, there is some here http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/concepts/programming/javascript/core_objects
  538. # [18:19] <@Garbee> So it may just be something that wasn't imported for some reason.
  539. # [18:19] <@Garbee> Yes, I saw that. ;)
  540. # [18:19] <@Garbee> I read the logs.
  541. # [18:19] <odinho> ^_^ Ohwell, I need to try leaving work.
  542. # [18:20] <@Garbee> haha
  543. # [18:20] <@Garbee> Good luck.
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  596. # [19:59] <@Garbee> shepazu, I have been thinking about the online chat. I think we actually can just go ahead and re-activate it now and just re-assess the config as issues arise.
  597. # [20:00] <@Garbee> Even though, I really think we just just iframe Freenode's webchat and be done with it. I see no real point in hosting it on the servers used for WPD.
  598. # [20:02] <@Garbee> Actually, lets do wait until after the holiday.
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  634. # [21:49] * ChanServ sets mode: +o Ryan_Lane
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  636. # [21:53] * ChanServ sets mode: +o nimbu
  637. # [21:56] * nimbu is now known as divya
  638. # [21:57] * Quits: u89 (~u89@f194196.upc-f.chello.nl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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  641. # [22:16] <@shepazu> Garbee: ok
  642. # [22:17] <@Garbee> Cool. I just don't want it to get activated then abused by someone with no one around to really deal with it w/o outright blocking access from the client again.
  643. # [22:17] * Garbee sets mode: -b *!*@gateway/web/qwebirc/webplatform.org/*
  644. # [22:17] <@Garbee> If someone is still on that, they rock.
  645. # [22:17] * Joins: kathyw (kathyw@nat/google/x-qxvnhbbiqvberqix)
  646. # [22:22] * Quits: David_Bradbury (~chatzilla@75-147-178-254-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 17.0/20121119183901])
  647. # [22:23] * Quits: kathyw (kathyw@nat/google/x-qxvnhbbiqvberqix) (Quit: kathyw)
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  656. # [22:50] * guillom is now known as basile
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  676. # Session Close: Thu Nov 22 00:00:00 2012

The end :)