/irc-logs / freenode / #webplatform / 2013-02-13 / end

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  33. # [01:46] <chee> hi #webplatform
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  151. # [09:36] <auchenberg> Goodmorning
  152. # [09:36] <auchenberg> Big news this morning: Opera moving to WebKit and V8: http://my.opera.com/ODIN/blog/300-million-users-and-move-to-webkit
  153. # [09:37] <@chrismills> auchenberg: yup … we are ;-)
  154. # [09:38] <@chrismills> Hit me up if you have any questions
  155. # [09:38] <auchenberg> chrismills: It's a bold move - I'm both a bit afraid, but also excited.
  156. # [09:38] <@chrismills> It's a bold business decision; I was horrified when I first found out, but it makes a lot of sense in many ways
  157. # [09:39] <@chrismills> gets rid of many site compatibility issues that were plaguing us
  158. # [09:39] <auchenberg> chrismills: Love the work you've done with Presto. You kept the competition going, and kept the focus on implementing the specs, as they are. But at the same time Webkit has again resources and traction.. I get the point.
  159. # [09:39] <@chrismills> plus it allows our devs to focus on more innovative features, rather than constantly trying to catch up with WK
  160. # [09:40] <auchenberg> chrismills: What I fear is the lack of competition. I don't wanna live in a webkit-only world. No competition, and we end-up in the old-IE-days again.
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  162. # [09:41] <auchenberg> chrismills: Exactly, it gives the focus on innovation, instead of keeping the race going.
  163. # [09:44] <auchenberg> chrismills: Anyway, bold move, looking forward following :)
  164. # [09:44] <@chrismills> me too!
  165. # [09:44] <@chrismills> It has been more positive so far than I expected
  166. # [09:45] <@chrismills> Much less religious hatred from the Opera fanboy camps than thought
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  201. # [11:19] <Raymondo> chrismills: as a long-time opera user who switched to chrome it makes me happy. I hope opera gets to free up some resources for the ui innovation that you originally became known for
  202. # [11:20] <Raymondo> does this make the webkit project less monolithic? is it likely we will see more 'flavours' of webkit, now there are more contributors
  203. # [11:21] <@chrismills> Raymondo: thanks for your words; this is exactly the kind of reasoning for us switching
  204. # [11:22] <@chrismills> Whether it makes webkit less monolithic will remain to be seen
  205. # [11:22] <@chrismills> will there be much value in using a different fork of WebKit, with different features?
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  207. # [11:26] <Raymondo> well, for example, I'm not sure how prefixing works between chromium and safari at the moment
  208. # [11:26] <Raymondo> if chromium commits a prefixed feature, does safari automatically get it in time?
  209. # [11:27] <Raymondo> I imagine it would be useful to have prefixes that are specific to a particular webkit-based implementor
  210. # [11:27] <@ravenzz> why?!?
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  212. # [11:27] <@ravenzz> :p
  213. # [11:28] <@ravenzz> the engine is the same afterall
  214. # [11:28] <@chrismills> Raymondo: this is the thing - a lot of the reason why multiple browsers use WK is to get rid of such issues
  215. # [11:28] <@chrismills> effectively all browsers using Chromium would get all such changes
  216. # [11:28] <Raymondo> ravenzz: because the point is to enable experimentation. forcing everyone to adopt the same implementation even for experimental features seems wrong
  217. # [11:29] <@chrismills> and I believe the same to be true of Apple's WebKit2 thing
  218. # [11:29] <@chrismills> experimentation would come from implementing new experimental features, not implementing the same features differently
  219. # [11:30] <@chrismills> that wouldn't make sense at all, and really would lead us down the awful IE/Netscape path of yesteryear
  220. # [11:30] <Raymondo> chrismills: so in spec negotiations, doesn't that overly strengthen mozilla's hand? since independent implementations of an experimental spec are what validate it
  221. # [11:30] <@ravenzz> chrismills yeah but now you'll be stuck into the WebKit roadmap
  222. # [11:30] <@ravenzz> probably that's what he means
  223. # [11:31] <@chrismills> to a degree, yes, we are stuck in it.
  224. # [11:31] <@chrismills> But we can also submit patches to contribute
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  226. # [11:31] <@chrismills> and being stuck with the implementation is a good thing in a lot of ways
  227. # [11:31] <@ravenzz> I agree on that
  228. # [11:31] <@chrismills> your first point is also interestting, about Mozilla
  229. # [11:32] <@chrismills> yes, you could be right. The monoculture worry is very prevalent
  230. # [11:38] <eighty4> Raymondo: to be fair prefixes isn't something you should use… it IS beta so I would say it's perfectly ok if it's a bit unclear how it works.
  231. # [11:39] <@chrismills> eighty4: strictly speaking, no, you shouldn't use them in production projects. But noone listened to that ;-)
  232. # [11:40] <eighty4> chrismills: no one listens to that sure, but that's not really the browsers/devs fault. It's up to them to make it how unclear they want it.
  233. # [11:40] <@chrismills> I generally say that if you do use prefixes you should accept the responsibility of using ALL of them and making them work across browsers. No one listened to me either ;-)
  234. # [11:41] <@chrismills> Agreed - it's not really the browser or devs fault necessarily
  235. # [11:41] <@chrismills> It's the fault of the whole process really, for allowing people t do such things
  236. # [11:42] <Raymondo> eighty4: true enough. but if opera wants to experiment on a feature without making it available across the entire webkit installed base, and therefore making it attractive to use in production, sharing a single prefix makes that harder
  237. # [11:43] <@chrismills> but we are trying to move away from our own testing implementations of standards features being implemented across WK anyway
  238. # [11:44] <@chrismills> There is not really much point in us doing something different
  239. # [11:44] <Raymondo> I see
  240. # [11:44] <@chrismills> in such cases
  241. # [11:44] <@chrismills> we'd prefer to spend our time working on other innovative features, both UI and web standards
  242. # [11:44] <@chrismills> for example, we'd love to push features we supported better than WebKit over the the main trunk
  243. # [11:45] <@chrismills> like CSS3 multi column layout, and object-fit
  244. # [11:45] <Raymondo> I don't know how well the webkit project manages to avoid factionalism but I assumed/half-remembered that it existed to a degree
  245. # [11:45] <@chrismills> and we also want to get back to UI innovation stuff, rather than just playing catch up all the time
  246. # [11:46] <@chrismills> afaics, Chromium is the main committer, whereas Apple are more of a consumer
  247. # [11:46] <@chrismills> then there is there minor factions
  248. # [11:46] <@chrismills> then there are*
  249. # [11:46] <@chrismills> but everyone has influence
  250. # [11:47] <Raymondo> chrismills: presto's been a black box to outsiders for so long. how different is it working on webkit?
  251. # [11:48] <@chrismills> webkit is open source, sod you can see what's going on inside
  252. # [11:48] <Raymondo> supposedly webkit is a lot better organised than gecko, for example
  253. # [11:49] <@chrismills> I'm not sure realistically how this will affect day to day work for the devs
  254. # [11:49] <@chrismills> yeah, it is supposed to be a lot easier to work with
  255. # [11:49] <Raymondo> than presto?
  256. # [11:49] <@chrismills> than gecko
  257. # [11:50] <Raymondo> :)
  258. # [11:51] <Raymondo> I'm just reading your post about object-fit, which I hadn't heard of
  259. # [11:51] <@chrismills> yeah, it's quite a subtle one - but I'm a huge fan ;-)
  260. # [11:53] <odinho> :-)
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  264. # [12:39] <@arkhi> chrismills: Any idea if Presto’s code could become opensource?
  265. # [12:40] <@chrismills> arkhi we have thought about that a lot, but realistically it is probably not going to happen. Any large scale open source project needs maintenance work, and we don't have to extra manpower to commit to that
  266. # [12:41] <@arkhi> That makes sense from your perspective.
  267. # [12:42] <@arkhi> I must say I’m a bit sad to see Presto go, although Opera using Webkit might bring me back to it. :)
  268. # [12:42] <@chrismills> ;-)
  269. # [12:42] <@chrismills> I can understand the logic
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  461. # Session Close: Thu Feb 14 00:00:00 2013

The end :)