/irc-logs / freenode / #webplatform / 2013-08-09 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Aug 09 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #webplatform
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  285. # [17:12] <cballenar> Hey, I'm working on a small SCSS framework, primarily to be used as a layer to the HTML5BP, I was hoping I could get some feedback? :) http://cballenar.github.io/base12/
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  307. # [17:53] <renoirb> Hello cballenar
  308. # [17:53] <cballenar> Hi
  309. # [17:53] <renoirb> You can also ask for feedback on the oocss mailing list, they are also a good reference for such things :)
  310. # [17:54] <renoirb> (in case you did not know about it)
  311. # [17:54] * renoirb is looking at it
  312. # [17:54] <cballenar> I did not, I actually had no clue where to ask for feedback
  313. # [17:54] <cballenar> thanks!
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  315. # [17:55] <renoirb> I would recommend you to adjust the readme to teach on how to extend without modifying your own library
  316. # [17:55] <renoirb> I wrote an article on the topic here: http://htmlcsstherightway.org/#how_to_change_colors_and_parameters_in_a_css_framework_such_as_twitter_bootstrap
  317. # [17:55] * Joins: jeffreyatw (~jeffreyat@173.247.197.10)
  318. # [17:55] <renoirb> but i would need to write a better/more-in-detail version soon enough.
  319. # [17:56] <renoirb> If you want to do so, I can add it to htmlcsstherightway.org as a pull request and add you as an author if you want.
  320. # [17:58] <cballenar> hmmmm interesting, yea that would be pretty helpful!
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  323. # [18:00] <cballenar> I keep all variables in the main.scss which is kind of focused on that, while everything else lives in the subfolders. but I am debating as to what the best practice for all this is
  324. # [18:00] <cballenar> I've been up a few nights working on it but it's mostly based on the way I work so it's good to get the point of view from others, thanks!
  325. # [18:01] <michaelarestad> I split my scss files up a ton. (I made something similar for myself.) https://github.com/MichaelArestad/Anvil-Kit
  326. # [18:01] <michaelarestad> I keep most variables in the variables file
  327. # [18:02] <michaelarestad> I also allow the ability to turn on or off sections.
  328. # [18:02] <michaelarestad> At some point, I will likely split it up even further.
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  330. # [18:03] <michaelarestad> I also keep main.scss and base.scss separate so that default styles won't get mixed in with classes.
  331. # [18:03] <cballenar> Nice! I was considering the option to turn things on/off it seemed like an essential for this
  332. # [18:04] <michaelarestad> check out style.scss to see how I comment on/off various things
  333. # [18:04] <michaelarestad> makes it super easy to remove unwanted code
  334. # [18:04] <cballenar> Oh, I see, yea I think we're using main/base as different things
  335. # [18:05] <michaelarestad> probably. Will dig through yours shortly
  336. # [18:06] <cballenar> cool, thanks. and yea, I see how that helps. I only have the main sections setup like that. I'll may have to re-plan this for the next version.
  337. # [18:06] <michaelarestad> If you use single-line comments, Codekit will strip the comments out of the final code. (not sure about others)
  338. # [18:07] <michaelarestad> My final output only shows one comment and it's the info about the website/author/etc
  339. # [18:08] <cballenar> yea, I wanted to keep main comments such as the ones that refer to authors and alike
  340. # [18:08] <cballenar> this would also apply for third-party css
  341. # [18:08] <cballenar> ideally, I think it's worth the extra bytes
  342. # [18:09] <michaelarestad> Fair enough.
  343. # [18:12] * renoirb is reading the thread.
  344. # [18:12] <renoirb> I had the same problem with variables. And I my teeth ache when I have to edit the framework's internal customization variables
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  346. # [18:12] <renoirb> I prefer the 'extend' way.
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  348. # [18:12] <renoirb> So, a checkout/import (e.g. bower) then, use my own that includes the libraries… because in the end: all we want is to selectively load what we need.
  349. # [18:12] <michaelarestad> Yeah. I started refactor some of the code to use extend more. (buttons and forms)
  350. # [18:12] <renoirb> Good :)
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  352. # [18:12] <michaelarestad> The only variables I made necessary are the font families/weights and root font size.
  353. # [18:12] <renoirb> you can also look at http://compass-style.org/help/tutorials/extensions/
  354. # [18:12] <michaelarestad> And even then, not a big deal to change.
  355. # [18:13] <michaelarestad> Yep.
  356. # [18:13] <renoirb> But I strongly prefer not relying on always running a scss/less watcher
  357. # [18:13] <renoirb> unless in active development.
  358. # [18:13] <renoirb> active CSS development. Otherwise, please, use the compiled and minified version.
  359. # [18:14] <renoirb> We lose enough time in development with other profiler tools than to have to reload each edits of something else than NOT css/sass/less/whatever-not-native-css
  360. # [18:14] * renoirb removes the 'css' in his previous '/'-separated list
  361. # [18:15] <cballenar> *catching up* hmmm I see, I was debating as to how extensible I wanted to make it while still keep it fairly minimal
  362. # [18:15] <renoirb> Have you heard of bower cballenar ?
  363. # [18:15] <cballenar> yea, I saw it last night but did not look much into it
  364. # [18:15] <michaelarestad> We're all running Codekit and share a repo and have no issues. (we minify the css for the production site)
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  367. # [18:17] <cballenar> huh, cool, I'm gonna have to look into that. for now I just use sublimetext + lviereload
  368. # [18:17] * nimbu is now known as divya
  369. # [18:17] <cballenar> but I haven't worked on a team with multiple front-end developers
  370. # [18:18] <renoirb> cballenar: look at Yeoman+Bower+Grunt
  371. # [18:18] <renoirb> You can checkout my own website workspace
  372. # [18:18] <renoirb> it uses it all
  373. # [18:18] <renoirb> and you can see how I extend -> what I mean
  374. # [18:18] <renoirb> https://github.com/renoirb/renoirboulanger-static
  375. # [18:18] <cballenar> cool, I'll do that! thanks!
  376. # [18:18] <renoirb> it is live at
  377. # [18:18] <renoirb> https://renoirboulanger.com/styleguide2/
  378. # [18:19] <renoirb> I use Roughdraft.js for the patterns and get totally independent of the backend technology until it is needed to implement.
  379. # [18:19] <cballenar> I remember trying yeoman a while ago but I had some problems and didn't bother looking into it again, I'll give it another shot :P
  380. # [18:19] <renoirb> it makes the workspace much leaner and easy for colleagues to "get" where are the loops.
  381. # [18:20] <cballenar> oh that's pretty cool
  382. # [18:22] <renoirb> see in app/index.html
  383. # [18:22] <renoirb> https://github.com/renoirb/renoirboulanger-static/blob/master/app/index.html
  384. # [18:22] <renoirb> things such as
  385. # [18:22] <@Garbee> cballenar, Have you seen the semantic grid system? it seems pretty similar except not bound by a certain column number.
  386. # [18:22] <renoirb> <article data-draft-repeat="3" ...
  387. # [18:22] <@Garbee> http://semantic.gs/
  388. # [18:23] <renoirb> I did not know of that one, I use schema.org schemas whenever applicable.
  389. # [18:23] <cballenar> hmmmm codekit looks pretty good but i'd hate to leave Sublime
  390. # [18:24] <renoirb> https://github.com/renoirb/renoirboulanger-static/tree/master/app/less/renoirb
  391. # [18:24] <michaelarestad> Codekit isn't an editor.
  392. # [18:24] <michaelarestad> It works with any text editor.
  393. # [18:24] <@Garbee> renoirb, schema.org really?
  394. # [18:24] <michaelarestad> It just processes code for you.
  395. # [18:24] <@Garbee> #microformats ftw!
  396. # [18:24] <renoirb> look at how I use the files in https://github.com/renoirb/renoirboulanger-static/tree/master/app/less/style.less in the grunt file to use the renoirb/ repository to extend bootstrap or whatever else.
  397. # [18:25] <renoirb> in app/less I have bootstrap font-awesome mixins, but anything else can be used, really.
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  399. # [18:26] <cballenar> semantic looks cool but (from a very quick assessment) i'm kinda worried what the output css will look like, I fear it may look good on SCSS but get bloated after output, I could be wrong
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  401. # [18:27] <cballenar> michaelarestad: ohhhh that's better thanks for clarifying that!
  402. # [18:28] <michaelarestad> It also replaces LiveReload.
  403. # [18:28] <@Garbee> cballenar, If you use it right then it should actually be less code normally then using most other frameworks. Since you are applying the grid system directly to the elements vs a class which defines it which is used repeatedly.
  404. # [18:28] <@Garbee> Actually making output cleaner in most situations.
  405. # [18:29] <@Garbee> http://alphapixels.com/prepros/ This is a great CodeKit alternative. Works on Windows and Mac atm with Linux being planned from what I see in the issue tracker.
  406. # [18:31] <cballenar> I can see it working well for small/medium sites but something more complex with multiple layouts would be better off with a modular approach. though I guess it can be applied to a module and then make that module reusable. hmmmm yea I get it
  407. # [18:32] <cballenar> I was trying to get Prepros to work! it won't open :(
  408. # [18:32] <cballenar> I submitted a ticket but they couldn't figure out what was happening :(
  409. # [18:33] <@Garbee> Works for me on Win 7 64 bit.
  410. # [18:33] <@Garbee> No idea what issue you are running into.
  411. # [18:33] <cballenar> i'm on mac :\
  412. # [18:33] <@Garbee> Oh, that is pretty new, might still be buggy.
  413. # [18:33] <cballenar> i install the program, double click it, and nothing happens!!!!!
  414. # [18:34] <cballenar> i tried running it from the terminal and got an error but they weren't sure what was happening
  415. # [18:34] <renoirb> michaelarestad: I prefer grunt's way to handle livereload
  416. # [18:34] <cballenar> yea, I'll try it again at some point
  417. # [18:34] <@Garbee> this issue or another one? https://github.com/sbspk/Prepros/issues/216
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  419. # [18:34] <renoirb> grunt runs on linux/mac/windows (if you really have to)
  420. # [18:35] <renoirb> same javascript, no redeploy, component.json, package.json and you are done
  421. # [18:35] <renoirb> start a new colleague workspace: git checkout u@host:~/workspace.git; cd workspace;npm install;bower install;
  422. # [18:35] <renoirb> code.
  423. # [18:36] <cballenar> no, it was something else "LSOpenURLsWithRole() failed with error -10810 for the file /Users/carlos/Downloads/Prepros.app"
  424. # [18:37] <cballenar> renoirb: hmmm, I gotta get more friendly with the terminal, I don't use it enough
  425. # [18:37] <@Garbee> cballenar, Apple doesn't know either.
  426. # [18:37] <@Garbee> https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/documentation/Carbon/Reference/LaunchServicesReference/LaunchServicesReference.pdf
  427. # [18:38] <@Garbee> Search for -10810 in that PDF.
  428. # [18:38] <@Garbee> Your error.
  429. # [18:38] <@Garbee> No wonder the devs don't know what is going on.
  430. # [18:38] <@Garbee> Looks like a permission issue though.
  431. # [18:38] <cballenar> D'oh!
  432. # [18:38] <cballenar> I'll try playing with that
  433. # [18:38] <@Garbee> Apple/BSD does have some extra ACL control in their permissions that Linux doesn't have.
  434. # [18:39] <@Garbee> Honestly 777 the file and see if it goes.
  435. # [18:39] <@Garbee> That should let anyone do anything to it.
  436. # [18:40] * renoirb slaps Garbee with a large trout: chmod 777 is bad!!
  437. # [18:40] <renoirb> ;)
  438. # [18:40] <@Garbee> renoirb, Local and for testing only, not an issue.
  439. # [18:41] <@Garbee> Plus it is direct software.
  440. # [18:41] <@Garbee> It at least debugs the issue (unless something is really wonky with mac OS's permissions.)
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  442. # [18:41] <@Garbee> If it were a web server of any kind, yea never 777 unless your host is stupid, in which case you need to change hosts.
  443. # [18:42] <cballenar> hmmm nope, didn't work :(
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  446. # [18:45] <@Garbee> renoirb, Would we use APC in WPD's infrastructure?
  447. # [18:45] <@Garbee> Symphony is recommending it be used.
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  450. # [18:51] <cballenar> Hey, thanks all for the feedback on http://cballenar.github.io/base12/ gonna grab some food now, i'm starving!
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  455. # [19:03] <renoirb> Garbee: We could.
  456. # [19:03] <renoirb> But me and shepazu will most likely go toward nodejs
  457. # [19:03] <renoirb> for everything and communicate with git
  458. # [19:03] * renoirb goes to lunch now
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  480. # [19:59] <renoirb> Back
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  509. # [23:01] <@Garbee> renoirb, Would we end up using a nodeJS framework or raw node?
  510. # [23:01] <renoirb> Garbee: it is to figure out.
  511. # [23:01] <renoirb> Probably go to a proven framework.
  512. # [23:02] <renoirb> I might use php for an api though.
  513. # [23:02] <renoirb> I might expose an api proxy using Guzzle to harmonize things and abstract the layers
  514. # [23:03] <renoirb> ref: http://blog.balancedpayments.com/restful-hypermedia-apis/
  515. # [23:03] <@Garbee> Man, this kind of software engineering is way over my head.
  516. # [23:03] <renoirb> You can learn :)
  517. # [23:03] <@Garbee> paul_irish, Have you messed with NodeJS frameworks much?
  518. # [23:03] * renoirb is self-thought
  519. # [23:04] <renoirb> *taught
  520. # [23:04] <@Garbee> I have been meaning to learn JS this year. I guess node seems like it might be a good place to start.
  521. # [23:04] <@Garbee> Not quite the application of JS I was anticipating though.
  522. # [23:07] <renoirb> My recommendation Garbee: Douglas Crockford: Javascript the good parts…. Cody (un-remembered family name at the moment): Javascript enlightenment…. Nicolas Z.: maintainable javascript, …. Addy Osmani: JAvascript design patterns (http://addyosmani.com/resources/essentialjsdesignpatterns/book/) and of course paul_irish's reading jQuery source videos :)
  523. # [23:07] <@Garbee> I have seen Paul's jQuery videos many times.
  524. # [23:07] <@Garbee> I still learn things watching them.
  525. # [23:08] <@Garbee> But, without *practicing* it, I lose it.
  526. # [23:08] <renoirb> After reading the two first books i mentioned, things got clear in my mind.
  527. # [23:08] <@Garbee> The primary thing I took from Paul's videos was Ternary Operators.
  528. # [23:08] <@Garbee> That is a cool thing in programming if used properly.
  529. # [23:08] <@Garbee> Hell in others.
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  531. # [23:11] <renoirb> hahaha
  532. # [23:11] <@Garbee> hm, Nicolas Zakas name seems familiar.
  533. # [23:12] <@Garbee> I think I have seen a talk or two he has done.
  534. # [23:12] <renoirb> The idea that me and shepazu has is that we want to use git to a maximum, and use the maximum possible web technologies. We are not going to create yet an other cms, but a 'community driven content management system'
  535. # [23:13] * Quits: travm (~travm@hsc-user.hsc.wvu.edu) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  536. # [23:13] <renoirb> piece by piece, and by using JavaScript so only web technologies are used to a maximum possible.
  537. # [23:13] <renoirb> got to go :)
  538. # [23:14] <@Garbee> Bye.
  539. # [23:14] <cballenar1> renoirb: Hey, I'm trying CodeKit and I when it refreshes the page it does it for the active tabs in all the windows (i only have two, the second one is for email n non-work related stuff) do u know of a way so it only reloads the one i care about?
  540. # [23:14] <cballenar1> oops, just saw you're leaving :( see ya!
  541. # [23:15] <cballenar1> anyone else?
  542. # [23:15] <@Garbee> And we can't possibly make "yet another CMS". What we are doing is way beyond that boundry.
  543. # [23:15] <cballenar1> (btw, the problem with that is that the second window actually jumps to the front of my screen…)
  544. # [23:16] <renoirb> cballenar1: I do not use codekit. But here is what I would do: look at the html of the tabs, and look the javascript you have there
  545. # [23:16] <renoirb> because live reload is basically about injecting some javascript check to an endpoint. might be the same endpoint.
  546. # [23:17] <renoirb> are all tabs opened using the first of the group?
  547. # [23:17] <renoirb> because they might have the same window.origin and you might have something mixed there.
  548. # [23:18] <cballenar1> no, they were opened at different times, I think it's just the way codekit works, which is kind of a disappointment. (btw, sorry, I thought u were the one who had recommended it earlier on, got mixed up)
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  552. # [23:23] <renoirb> cballenar1: no worries. I prefer yeoman built workspace with Grunt's development server
  553. # [23:23] <renoirb> if you want to try quickly, have a look at my workspace sample:
  554. # [23:24] <renoirb> https://github.com/renoirb/renoirboulanger-static <= I develop my frontend that way. I committed everything, but ideally bootstrap should be in bower's config
  555. # [23:25] <cballenar1> cool, thanks!
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  562. # Session Close: Sat Aug 10 00:00:01 2013

The end :)