/irc-logs / freenode / #webplatform / 2014-01-01 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Jan 01 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #webplatform
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  7. # [00:11] * @Garbee ain't staying up till midnight for this.
  8. # [00:11] <@Garbee> The new year will be here when I wake up. I'm fine with that.
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  52. # [18:20] <@shepazu> happy new year, webplatformers
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  54. # [18:21] <@shepazu> frozenice, looked over the new bot stuff, looks cool!
  55. # [18:21] <@shepazu> where can I see it in action?
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  59. # [18:23] <@frozenice> you can't, yet :)
  60. # [18:24] <@frozenice> it's just the build environment in the repo atm
  61. # [18:27] <@shepazu> ah, ok :)
  62. # [18:27] <@shepazu> frozenice, why coffeescript?
  63. # [18:27] <@frozenice> it's nice for NodeJS development
  64. # [18:27] <@shepazu> (rather than simple JS)
  65. # [18:27] <@frozenice> and has some convenience stuff
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  67. # [18:27] <@frozenice> also the literate version is pretty cool
  68. # [18:29] <@shepazu> frozenice, you mean like: x = 5 if somebool == true ?
  69. # [18:29] <@frozenice> the arrow syntax for functions, mostly :)
  70. # [18:30] <@shepazu> frozenice, since it all compiles to JS, would someone be able to contribute to the code using plain JS?
  71. # [18:30] <@frozenice> yup, that was a goal of the build env
  72. # [18:30] <@frozenice> it supports both
  73. # [18:30] <@shepazu> ok, cool
  74. # [18:32] <@frozenice> also, test coverage is done over the original CS files and not the compiled JS, which is neat
  75. # [18:32] <@shepazu> one of my goals in moving to NodeJS and JS in general as much as possible was to have a really clean story around how people can contribute code, and to target the same audience as our readers
  76. # [18:33] <@shepazu> in other words, if you're a client-side web developer, you can probably contribute to the code base of webplatform.org
  77. # [18:34] <@shepazu> hmmm… why is it good to have the tests cover the CoffeeScript, rather than the compiled JS? wouldn't having them cover the JS be more universal?
  78. # [18:34] <@frozenice> yeah, that's possible, CS isn't that much of a different syntax from JS, so people can mostly figure out what's going on by looking at the code and they can write theirs in JS, also there will be dev docs
  79. # [18:34] <m4nu> -1 to CoffeeScript - it's awful, IMHO.
  80. # [18:35] <@shepazu> m4nu, why don't you like CS?
  81. # [18:35] <m4nu> Programming in CoffeeScript is like using the English language w/o punctuation... you can still make out what's going on, but it's far more effort and far less people are familiar w/ it than Javascript.
  82. # [18:35] * @shepazu doesn't yet have an opinion
  83. # [18:36] <m4nu> shepazu: the biggest reason is that it destroys code readability
  84. # [18:36] <@shepazu> interesting
  85. # [18:36] <m4nu> also, you have to compile it, which slows down code iteration
  86. # [18:36] <@shepazu> frozenice, your rebuttal? :)
  87. # [18:36] <@frozenice> I like it ;)
  88. # [18:37] <m4nu> if you have a bug, debugging it is awful because there are no good tools for debugging coffeescript, and the code that's generated can be really dumb for very large projects.
  89. # [18:37] <m4nu> Most of the core Node.js developers hate it (for the reasons I'm outlining above)
  90. # [18:38] <m4nu> Even if you were to believe that it was an improvement, it's a modest one at best, and you're forcing the community to learn /two/ languages now instead of just one... for marginal improvements.
  91. # [18:39] <m4nu> just because it's verbally readable doesn't mean it's faster to comprehend (it's easier for people that find Ruby awesome, but not necessarily for people that don't like Ruby). My personal theory on this is that programmers are wired at least two different ways, which can be demonstrated w/ their preference for languages (Ruby vs. Python, for instance)
  92. # [18:40] <@shepazu> m4nu, but if it compiles to JS, and contributors can contribute to the JS version, do you think it still fragments the community?
  93. # [18:40] <m4nu> CoffeeScript makes it easy to do really awful one liners, and mediocre programmers end up using them too much, resulting in garbage that looks like this: wash plate, brush, sink for key, plate of dishes when plate.dirty if meal.status is 'done'
  94. # [18:40] <m4nu> shepazu: Yes, it fragments the community... nobody actually works w/ the "compiled-to-JS" version of the code.
  95. # [18:41] <@shepazu> hrm.
  96. # [18:42] <@frozenice> I guess most of the contributions (for the IRC thingy at least) will be plugins, which are completely standalone
  97. # [18:43] <@frozenice> the average web developer won't have a clue what's going on in the core either way
  98. # [18:43] <m4nu> frozenice: if you use that line of argumentation, you might as well say that it's fine to keep the core plugins as minified resources.
  99. # [18:44] <m4nu> frozenice: because nobody is really going to understand what's going on in them anyway...
  100. # [18:45] <m4nu> frozenice: but the problem w/ the line of argumentation you're using is that you're putting up a barrier for more volunteers to get involved. Pick something that the vast majority of web developers use... don't make them have to go off and learn a new language that has questionable benefits (and has many arguments against it, in fact).
  101. # [18:45] <@shepazu> frozenice, m4nu makes a good point… if we make the bot infrastructure a core part of the new CMS (which I'd like to do), maybe it makes sense to stick with one language so the whole core is more transparent and less intimidating for folks to dive into?
  102. # [18:45] <m4nu> frozenice: It's great that you like CoffeeScript... you should do your personal projects in it... but when you build a project that you want lots of people to contribute to, CoffeeScript is a turn off.
  103. # [18:46] <m4nu> Our company specifically does not contribute to CoffeeScript projects, we go off and find a similar solution not done in CoffeeScript and contribute to that.
  104. # [18:46] <@frozenice> yeah I'm fine either way, it's only the build-script and some test initialization that's in CS right now
  105. # [18:47] <m4nu> frozenice: yeah, but by doing that, you're culling away potential volunteers that could help maintain and develop that build script and test init stuff.
  106. # [18:47] <@shepazu> frozenice, I know this is your spare time, so if you want to experiment with CS, maybe that can be the upstream version and we could publish it as a fork that's just JS?
  107. # [18:48] <@shepazu> since it compiles to JS anyway
  108. # [18:48] <@frozenice> nah that would be a waste of time
  109. # [18:48] <m4nu> In short, CoffeeScript adds debugging complexity, slows the code iteration/test cycle because a compilation step is necessary, and you greatly narrow the number of Web developers that are capable of contributing to the code base.
  110. # [18:48] <m4nu> gotta go, afk :)
  111. # [18:49] <@shepazu> tell us what you really think, m4nu :D
  112. # [18:49] <@shepazu> don't be so shy!
  113. # [18:49] <@shepazu> lol
  114. # [18:49] <m4nu> :P
  115. # [18:49] <@frozenice> well, as I said I'm fine with JS for almost everything for our projects
  116. # [18:49] <m4nu> I usually throw chairs and curse like a sailor while talking about CoffeeScript... I /was/ being polite :P
  117. # [18:50] <@shepazu> frozenice, ultimately, I'd like to port the annotation code to JS, too :D
  118. # [18:50] <@frozenice> I need to re-implement that either way, I can do it in JS :)
  119. # [18:51] <@shepazu> frozenice, what do you mean?
  120. # [18:51] <@shepazu> why do you need to reimplement it?
  121. # [18:51] <@shepazu> (besides the "itch")
  122. # [18:52] <@frozenice> uhm, well what "annotation code" do you mean?
  123. # [18:52] <@shepazu> oh, sorry, I didn't mean the bot stuff
  124. # [18:53] <@shepazu> although, yeah, that too!
  125. # [18:53] <@frozenice> ah :)
  126. # [18:53] <@frozenice> yeah the bot stuff is a quick draft only
  127. # [18:53] <@shepazu> I meant the Annotator server code, porting it to NodeJS
  128. # [18:53] <@shepazu> I'd like to have a single core in all JS
  129. # [18:54] <@frozenice> haven't looked too much at the server code
  130. # [18:54] <@shepazu> nor I
  131. # [18:54] <@shepazu> frozenice, you seem to have really gotten into this bot and annotation stuff… free time on your hands over the holidays?
  132. # [18:55] <@frozenice> ofc :) that's what they are for!
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The end :)