/irc-logs / freenode / #webplatform / 2014-01-10 / end

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  154. # [17:48] <@julee> shepazu : are we supposed to scribe meeting notes in this chatroom now?
  155. # [17:48] <@shepazu> julee, yup
  156. # [17:48] <@shepazu> simplify, (x2)
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  159. # [17:54] <gelph> Ready for trouble^H^H^H^H^H some fun? (conference call)
  160. # [17:55] <eliezerb> gelph, Hey Max
  161. # [17:55] <gelph> hello! nice to chat finally
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  163. # [17:56] <gelph> Hi Alon
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  172. # [17:58] <eliezerb> Yup
  173. # [17:58] <eliezerb> But I'm listening to the audio
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  175. # [17:59] <gelph> Did you get VOIP setup? Seems like I need a provider to get that going on my Android phone natively. "SIP provider" or something.
  176. # [17:59] <eliezerb> It's Max
  177. # [18:00] <eliezerb> sip:zakim@voip.w3.org
  178. # [18:01] <jkomoros> scribenick: jkomoros
  179. # [18:02] <jkomoros> topic: Template discussions
  180. # [18:02] * jswisher is on the call until the half hour
  181. # [18:03] <jkomoros> shepazu: How many page types are there for JS?
  182. # [18:03] <jkomoros> gelph: They all follow the same basic format. There are only a few top-level or summary pages
  183. # [18:03] <jkomoros> ... using the semantic extension you're able to pull in sub-pages into the concepts page
  184. # [18:04] <jkomoros> ... so for example with CSS elements you might have properties of that as sub-pages get pulled into a summary section
  185. # [18:04] <jkomoros> ... we haven't thought about that much for the JS parts
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  187. # [18:04] <jkomoros> shepazu: I think it will be more difficult to do the import in that way
  188. # [18:04] <jkomoros> ... I think for the first import pass, what we have there will be sufficient
  189. # [18:05] <jkomoros> ... to get people working on it, and then we can think more deeply about it in the future
  190. # [18:05] <jkomoros> ... like when Jen came on the project, she came in and had good ideas to organize pages better
  191. # [18:05] <jkomoros> ... seeing it all in context was what allowed her to make those decisions
  192. # [18:05] <jkomoros> ... so I'm personally in favor of pushign the button and going with what we have?
  193. # [18:05] <jkomoros> elliott: Is there an argument that it will be harder to fix later?
  194. # [18:06] <jkomoros> gelph: Once we do the import, as long as people haven't touched them too much in the meantime, we can do another import later
  195. # [18:06] <jkomoros> shepazu: We could make a bot that does a batch process, for example
  196. # [18:06] <jkomoros> ... that wouldn't need another import
  197. # [18:06] <jkomoros> ... Elliott, I think the task would be not much more difficult to do after we import it
  198. # [18:06] <jkomoros> ... knowing how long this has taken already, I think we should do it
  199. # [18:07] <jkomoros> Elliott: I'm in agreement, just wanted to ask the question to verify we were aware of the constraints
  200. # [18:07] <jkomoros> julee_: If we had the same section heading and wanted to format it in a different way, it could overwrit ehte data
  201. # [18:08] <jkomoros> ... I feel like people should start getting into the pages. I don't think ther's anything with the sturcture right now that's so horrible that we should hold off the import
  202. # [18:08] <jkomoros> shepazu: Worst case scenario we could keep the old changes and then reimport
  203. # [18:08] <jkomoros> gelph: The WPD tool which someone else wrote, I was tweaking, it does a lot like bulk import bulk delete
  204. # [18:08] <jkomoros> ... we might be able ot use that to do what shepazu just described, relatively easily
  205. # [18:08] <jkomoros> shepazu: I think unless anyone has a real gamechanger, we should do the import
  206. # [18:09] <jkomoros> julee_: IS hte next step for eliezerb to publish the live template on teh site?
  207. # [18:09] <jkomoros> gelph: The template we should iterate a little bit over that: try it and iterate and do another import
  208. # [18:09] <jkomoros> julee: eliezerb has done the template: max do you find the template to be good enough?
  209. # [18:09] <jkomoros> ... so we'll tell eliezerb to go ahead and publish on the live site
  210. # [18:10] <jkomoros> ... and then you two can iterate on it together
  211. # [18:10] <jkomoros> ... push to the live site, but start with a small batch of test pages
  212. # [18:10] <jkomoros> ... I was getting the senses that he's providing you with all of the values necessary to do the import without losing data
  213. # [18:10] <jkomoros> ... so do a quick test, then do an import on the live site
  214. # [18:11] <jkomoros> gelph: I'm ready to begin that
  215. # [18:11] <eliezerb> Right now we have just the JS Object page with a Form and Templates... Should we finish the other pages (JS Properties, and so on)?
  216. # [18:11] <jkomoros> ACTION: eliezerb to publish his JS template
  217. # [18:11] <jkomoros> ACTION: gelph to do the import to the live site
  218. # [18:11] <jkomoros> julee_: And elizierb should know that right now gelph is his only customer
  219. # [18:12] <jkomoros> gelph: Just as a mitigating factor, there are existing pages in that same space that are kind of in the way; there's some work done there already. We'd talked about moving them temporarily
  220. # [18:12] <jkomoros> ... the import generally wipes the space clean and then reimports
  221. # [18:12] <jkomoros> ... in javascript/array, etc
  222. # [18:13] <jkomoros> julee_: Can we move them to Meta: namespace?
  223. # [18:13] <jkomoros> ... just so we don't lose them?
  224. # [18:13] <jkomoros> Elliott: And hten mark them all as merge candidates
  225. # [18:13] <jkomoros> ... that would be a nice item for a docsprint, too. Go through them and see what needs to be merged.
  226. # [18:14] <gelph> (Reference to existing pages: http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/javascript )
  227. # [18:14] <jkomoros> shepazu: eliezerb , it seems as though if we're going to have JS properites
  228. # [18:14] <jkomoros> ... right now we're just going to forgo that, because it would complicate the import
  229. # [18:14] <eliezerb> Ok
  230. # [18:14] <jkomoros> ... and we'll consider doing that at a later stage
  231. # [18:14] <jkomoros> ... so we just one template for now
  232. # [18:14] <jkomoros> ... so eliezerb are you good to work closely with max?
  233. # [18:15] <eliezerb> Sure, I've a lot of free time until end of January
  234. # [18:15] <jkomoros> shepazu: Thank you gelph and eliezerb, you are awesome. This is absolutely how we hoped the community would worked
  235. # [18:15] <eliezerb> It's always a pleasure work with gelph
  236. # [18:15] <@julee> jswisher : are you on the phone?
  237. # [18:15] <jkomoros> julee: There's a docsprint in march, we can focus on JS stuff
  238. # [18:15] <jswisher> julee: yes, I'm here
  239. # [18:16] <jkomoros> jensimmons: There's also a docsprint planned in Belgium in FEb
  240. # [18:16] * Quits: iamdustan (~iamdustan@216-136-5-134.static.twtelecom.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  241. # [18:16] <jkomoros> julee: We'll start the WPDW again after the JS stuff is imported
  242. # [18:16] <jkomoros> jswisher: There's a possibility I might be able to go to that
  243. # [18:17] <jkomoros> ... I might be in Europe in mid to late Feb, so it will just depend on timing
  244. # [18:17] * Quits: wilmoore (~wilmoore@vlandnat.mystrotv.com) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  245. # [18:17] <jkomoros> topic: Landing page
  246. # [18:18] <jkomoros> jensimmons: I wrote up a few pages, thinking about who will be going to the homepage of the website
  247. # [18:18] <jkomoros> ... how will they get there, what will they be looking for
  248. # [18:18] * Joins: dougm (a248d64b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.162.72.214.75)
  249. # [18:18] <jkomoros> ... the feedback you sent focused me on collecting contributors to help build content, rather than useful for folks to use the content
  250. # [18:18] <jkomoros> ... nwo that the CSS properties work is done, we might want to think about that latter one more
  251. # [18:19] <jkomoros> ... while still commjunicating this is a project with big ambitions and we'd love your help
  252. # [18:19] * Joins: wilmoore (~wilmoore@vlandnat.mystrotv.com)
  253. # [18:19] <jkomoros> shepazu: I'm interpreting what you say as "there's value in having the methodolgy of user stories first," and what you applied that first to
  254. # [18:20] <jkomoros> ... is applying it to consumers who want to consume content, but now you recognize there's another constituency: contributors
  255. # [18:20] <jkomoros> ... (both content and code, see eliezerb and gelph for great examples of the latter)
  256. # [18:20] <jkomoros> ... so maybe we should split the page for the two audiences? like on the left one, on the right the other
  257. # [18:20] <jkomoros> jensimmons: I think that makes sense; I think over time the amount of real estate given to those usecases will shift
  258. # [18:21] <jkomoros> jswisher: I think spliitting it might be a reaosnable approach
  259. # [18:21] <jkomoros> ... on the one hand, the "what the heck is this?" "I need info on FOO", and "how can I help" are the three main questions
  260. # [18:22] <jkomoros> julee: We're talking about www, the main landing page. And then we also have the main page off of docs.webplatform.org, and that's the top-level nav page for the content
  261. # [18:22] <jkomoros> [missed a few seconds of that]
  262. # [18:23] <jkomoros> jensimmons: I think that's a terrific idea
  263. # [18:23] <jkomoros> ... it's also the main landing page for how to contirbute as well
  264. # [18:23] <jkomoros> shepazu: I propose we take a few actions
  265. # [18:24] <jkomoros> ... I like Jen's idea of using user stories. I think the user stories for the consumers were good. I suggest that each of us does a user story (I'll do one) for a contributor
  266. # [18:24] <jkomoros> ... I'll do one of ra code contributor
  267. # [18:24] <jkomoros> ... maybe another is a designer, one's a developer
  268. # [18:25] <jkomoros> ... another one is someone coming from the standards world
  269. # [18:25] <jkomoros> ... and I'm sure there are others
  270. # [18:25] * Quits: zatan (~zatan@host81-133-95-93.in-addr.btopenworld.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  271. # [18:25] <jkomoros> ... then we'll have armed jen with what she needs
  272. # [18:25] <jkomoros> ... and the other thing is there could be user stories about explaining it to a newbie
  273. # [18:26] <jkomoros> ... so the landing page has three areas: what is this, how can I help, how can I use it?
  274. # [18:26] <jkomoros> jensimmons: That would be great!
  275. # [18:26] <jkomoros> ... especially since you guys have been working with contributors
  276. # [18:26] <jkomoros> ... so you know the kinds of typical person who comes to the site
  277. # [18:26] <jkomoros> ... that's the area I'm most vague
  278. # [18:26] <jkomoros> shepazu: Another area is a user story around docsprints
  279. # [18:27] <jkomoros> eliot: Another is for content requests, like WebVTT
  280. # [18:27] <jkomoros> shepazu: That's the example I was thinking about for someone from standards
  281. # [18:27] <jkomoros> jswisher: I need to drop off the call, but I'm very interested in helping with this
  282. # [18:27] <jkomoros> ... I'll still be in IRC, so just ping me if you want my help, I can collaborate over e-mail
  283. # [18:28] <jkomoros> jensimmons: These will help us focus, just very tight
  284. # [18:28] <@julee> A front-end developer
  285. # [18:28] <@julee> A student
  286. # [18:28] <@julee> A senior-level programmer
  287. # [18:28] <jkomoros> gelph: If you flip this whole thing around: instead ofw rintg a usecase, maybe conduct a survey of contributors?
  288. # [18:29] <@julee> Someone in the web industry googles the phrase “webplatform” because they keep hearing it
  289. # [18:29] <@julee> A junior-level web developer
  290. # [18:29] <@julee> Someone who already knows all about Web Platform heads to the website to find out the latest status
  291. # [18:29] <jkomoros> ... you might find out that, for example, "I particiapted because it's related to W3C so much more durable than something done by private company"
  292. # [18:29] <jkomoros> shepazu: I love that idea
  293. # [18:29] <jkomoros> ... it gives us a great source of blurbs as endorsements of the sites
  294. # [18:30] <jkomoros> julee: We should have a quick turnaround on this
  295. # [18:30] <jkomoros> shepazu: Let's aim for next Wednesday
  296. # [18:30] <jkomoros> ... Jen, can we do this on the website itself?
  297. # [18:31] <jkomoros> jensimmons: Sure, although I don't understand how it works
  298. # [18:31] <jkomoros> shepazu: I'll help you figure it out, Jen
  299. # [18:31] <@julee> http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/WPD:Projects
  300. # [18:31] <jkomoros> gelph: The fact Jen asked us, that's the first survey result :-)
  301. # [18:31] <jkomoros> shepazu: I can put together the survey thing; W3C has a survey tool but it's kind of ugly
  302. # [18:32] <jkomoros> eliot: I've used surveymonkey successfully before
  303. # [18:32] <jkomoros> shepazu: I'll look at that and Google docs and see what's easiest
  304. # [18:32] <jkomoros> jensimmons: There's a great question here around "how did you become a contributor", "how did you hear about us in the first place?"
  305. # [18:33] <jkomoros> ... but you could even take an opportunity to do a bigger survey, about what HAPPENS to contributors
  306. # [18:34] <jkomoros> gelph: 6 months ago shepazu spoke about recognition and it's importantce
  307. # [18:34] <jkomoros> s/it's/its
  308. # [18:34] <jkomoros> shepazu: Let's take it to the list to design the survey
  309. # [18:34] <jensimmons> The survey could help set priorities for the next short-term future
  310. # [18:35] <jkomoros> julee: The survey has expanded; we shouldn't have it block the home page redesign
  311. # [18:35] <jkomoros> shepazu: We can do them in parallel
  312. # [18:35] <jkomoros> eliot: I suggest we design the survey on the wiki
  313. # [18:36] <jkomoros> shepazu: We had a decision that eliezerb 's flags thing is good
  314. # [18:36] <jkomoros> ... there was a lot of talk about having a bot go through and transfer all the old flags to the new flag system
  315. # [18:37] <jkomoros> ... we have a page, each page template has a number of sub-templates
  316. # [18:37] <jkomoros> ... one of the subs is about flags, and we currentl have them populated by lots of values
  317. # [18:37] <jkomoros> ... the feedback is that's scary and discouraging
  318. # [18:37] <jkomoros> ... so we've decided to simplify them and subsume the fine-grained flagging
  319. # [18:38] <jkomoros> ... eliezerb experimented and figured out how to make a new flag template that was much simpler
  320. # [18:38] <jkomoros> ... the data currently stored int he old flag template will still be there, just not shown
  321. # [18:38] <jkomoros> ... this flag system si how we're telling people if apges are ready or not ready
  322. # [18:39] <jkomoros> ... we don't yet know who will write the bot to transfer old flags into new system
  323. # [18:39] <jkomoros> ... I suggest that for the sake of moving forward that we don't do that flag now; we'll always have the data present
  324. # [18:39] <jkomoros> ... if we need it. We deploy eliezerb 's template to make sure that pages that need to be flagged as not ready are flagged correclty
  325. # [18:39] <eliezerb> We can put those old flags in a text block...
  326. # [18:39] <jkomoros> ... simplifying will allow us to solve it more easily
  327. # [18:40] <eliezerb> http://docs.webplatform.org/test/css/properties/border
  328. # [18:40] <jkomoros> ... the old values will be stored int he wikitext, but NOT shown in the output page or the forms
  329. # [18:41] <jkomoros> ... unfortunately we can not set a default value (eliezerb investigated)
  330. # [18:41] <jkomoros> ... if we could, I would default to say a page is not done, and then over the course of a few days mark them as done if htey ware
  331. # [18:41] <jkomoros> ... but we can't do that
  332. # [18:41] <jkomoros> ... we still need someone to write a bot--but a simpler bot--and if something's not on a whitelist...
  333. # [18:41] <jkomoros> ... someone could write a bot to mark all of them as not done
  334. # [18:42] <jkomoros> ... but maybe frozenice could help here?
  335. # [18:42] * Quits: bpayton (~brandonp@unaffiliated/brandonp) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  336. # [18:42] <jkomoros> gelph: THis is surprisingly similar to the earlier task about JS templates and fixing later
  337. # [18:42] <jkomoros> shepazu: gelph Would you be interested in looking into this stuff after the JS stuff is done?
  338. # [18:42] <jkomoros> gelph: Yep
  339. # [18:43] <jkomoros> shepazu: So here's the proposed plan: we remove from the form the existing flags (verifying that the data is not accidentally overwritten when the form is gone and subsequent edits happen)
  340. # [18:43] <jkomoros> ... then we replace the old template wit hthe new template on all pages
  341. # [18:43] <jkomoros> ... then gelph investigates changing those values to set them to "not done" via abot
  342. # [18:44] <jkomoros> ... and we come up with a whitelist of pages we think we're done
  343. # [18:44] * Quits: dougm (a248d64b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.162.72.214.75) (Quit: Page closed)
  344. # [18:44] <jkomoros> ... which will conveniently be a list of things we can talk about being done
  345. # [18:44] <jkomoros> ... it's not jsut CSS stuff; the DOM stuff is pretty solid, too
  346. # [18:44] <jkomoros> gelph: At the end of those massive CGI movies, there's a title called "Data Wrangler". Maybe I should have htat title :-D
  347. # [18:45] <jkomoros> shepazu: We should absolutely call out folks like gelph and frozenice for their amazing work
  348. # [18:45] <jkomoros> shepazu: Also on the list we should figure out how to give people titles to recognize the work they do
  349. # [18:45] <jkomoros> ... it's another reason for other peopel to contribute: they can see official recognition comes to anyone who works
  350. # [18:45] <jkomoros> julee: I think we defintiely need a community management plan
  351. # [18:45] <jkomoros> shepazu: What about having those titles on the front page?
  352. # [18:46] <jkomoros> jensimmons: What about more blog posts?
  353. # [18:46] <jkomoros> ... the whole list on the home page might be too much, but easy to get to from the home page, maybe with a few examples on the home page
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  357. # [18:47] <jkomoros> shepazu: And then we show people, "here's how these people earned recognition,and you can too"
  358. # [18:49] <jkomoros> topic: Compatibiltiy tables
  359. # [18:49] <jkomoros> shepazu: I don't have the attention span to solve the problem myself
  360. # [18:50] <jkomoros> ...we had a volunteer, but after he recognized the depth of complexity realized that he didn't have the time
  361. # [18:50] <jkomoros> ... the problem's not impossible, but outside my expertise
  362. # [18:50] <jkomoros> ... the problem is we're using results from MDN as our first-pass solution
  363. # [18:51] <jkomoros> ... there's two problems: MDN data is a bit noisy (doesn't have tests to back up data), but people do find the data useful
  364. # [18:51] <jkomoros> ... we have the data from MDN, we have a script to pull it down
  365. # [18:51] <jkomoros> ... but their API only presents it as tables, not as JSON or anything else
  366. # [18:51] <jkomoros> ... we'd need someone to convert it to JSON
  367. # [18:51] <jkomoros> ... someone with good Python/Perl/Ruby/etc skills
  368. # [18:52] <jkomoros> ... to convert from an HTML table to a normalized data table we've already established in JSON
  369. # [18:52] * Quits: zaal (~zaal@cpc65346-nrwh11-2-0-cust48.4-4.cable.virginmedia.com) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  370. # [18:52] <jkomoros> ... we have samples to scrape from already
  371. # [18:52] <jkomoros> ... it's a multi pass thing: first you write something to take care of obvious stuff, then continue targeting the edge cases iteratively
  372. # [18:52] <jkomoros> ... there will be some hand-management of the data
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  374. # [18:53] <jkomoros> jensimmons: Should we write about a blurb of a job description fo rhtis?
  375. # [18:53] <jkomoros> shepazu: WE have int he past.. that's how gelph Found out about it
  376. # [18:53] <jkomoros> jensimmons: I know of a bunch of people who would fit the description
  377. # [18:54] <jkomoros> ACTION: shepazu to write up a job description of the HTML --> JSON of MDN compat tables and then jensimmons and others can tweet about it
  378. # [18:55] <jkomoros> gelph: Seems like an on-going need for tools assistance
  379. # [18:55] <jkomoros> shepazu: I'm feeling better about this than I was feeling 10 minutes ago :-)
  380. # [18:55] <jkomoros> ... I'll get to that action today
  381. # [18:56] <@julee> oops. I accidentally hung up and can't get back in.
  382. # [18:56] <jkomoros> [scribenick had to run to another meeting]
  383. # [18:57] <@julee> shepazu : can you please msg when the meetings over so I can grab jkomoros notes?
  384. # [18:57] <eliezerb> julee, It's over
  385. # [18:57] <@julee> thanks, eliezerb!
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  388. # [19:07] <gelph> Great meeting, relevant and fun points brought up
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  424. # [22:13] <@shepazu> jkomoros, trying to figure out how to create a piwik account for you
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  429. # [22:46] <@Garbee> shepazu: http://piwik.org/docs/manage-users/#create-users if you still need it.
  430. # [22:48] <@shepazu> Garbee, yeah, not working for me
  431. # [22:48] <@shepazu> guess I'm not the superuser
  432. # [22:50] <@Garbee> ah yea
  433. # [22:50] <@Garbee> http://piwik.org/faq/general/faq_69/#faq_69
  434. # [22:50] <@Garbee> Only superuser can create new users.
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  437. # Session Close: Sat Jan 11 00:00:00 2014

The end :)