/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-03-19 / end

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# [11:11] * WhatBot (n=PircBot@net-153-119.mweb.co.za) has joined #whatwg
# [11:11] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- http://whatbot.charlvn.za.net/ (logged) -- Please leave your sense of logic (and software patents) at the door, thanks! -- http://blog.whatwg.org/w3c-restarts-html-effort thanks to us!'
# [11:11] * Set by annevk on Sun Mar 18 21:41:22 SAST 2007
# [11:13] <annevk> yay
# [11:13] <Charl> ok this time the fault was my server, not whatbo
# [11:13] <Charl> not the logbot system
# [11:14] <krijnh> MS still didn't join the WG?
# [11:14] <annevk> nope
# [11:17] <krijnh> Are they going to?
# [11:18] <annevk> well, one of the Microsofties is co-chairing the group
# [11:19] <annevk> I assume Chris is fighting some internal lawyer to get him (and others) in
# [11:20] <krijnh> Hmm
# [11:24] <karlUshi> annevk: ?
# [11:25] <annevk> karlUshi, as logbot for this channel
# [11:27] <Charl> i obviously missed the discussion earlier on
# [11:27] <Charl> but we really need to get a better host for the logbot
# [11:27] <karlUshi> annevk: http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2001/sw/logger/
# [11:28] <Charl> at the moment whatbot is running on a server sitting beneath my desk
# [11:29] <annevk> well, hosting it too
# [11:29] <annevk> if I could host a logbot I would've done so
# [11:29] <annevk> but my host doesn't allow it :(
# [11:29] <annevk> Charl :)
# [11:29] <krijnh> What's needed for it to host it?
# [11:29] <annevk> krijnh, a server that allows IRC connections I suppose
# [11:29] <krijnh> Makes sense ;]
# [11:29] <krijnh> I'll ask my host
# [11:30] <Charl> you see the problem is this
# [11:30] <Charl> one can host it anywhere
# [11:30] <Charl> but you have some funny PHP hack
# [11:30] <Charl> that you need to run on some webserver
# [11:30] <Charl> together with the logs
# [11:30] <krijnh> Ah
# [11:30] <karlUshi> what's wrond with whatbot?
# [11:30] <Charl> in other words, your host needs to have a public static IP address
# [11:30] <krijnh> Charl: we've hacked php for your site as well ;)
# [11:30] <karlUshi> s/wrond/wrong/
# [11:31] <annevk> karlUshi, unstable
# [11:31] <Charl> krijnh: that original cms i had going was a hack and nothing but a hack :)
# [11:31] <krijnh> Charl: You mean wordpress? :)
# [11:31] <krijnh> With the mysqli hack
# [11:31] <Charl> krijnh: oh no that was before i even installed WP :)
# [11:32] <krijnh> Ah
# [11:32] <Charl> krijnh: now i am pwned because there is an update to the WP DB file
# [11:32] <Charl> so hacking all over agaIN
# [11:32] <krijnh> You're using wp 2 now right?
# [11:32] <Charl> yeah 2.0 still
# [11:32] <krijnh> Which reminds me, I still have to send you a bill
# [11:32] <krijnh> ;)
# [11:32] * hendry (n=hendry@91.84.53.136) has joined #whatwg
# [11:32] <karlUshi> why guys you haven't tried chump?
# [11:33] <karlUshi> http://usefulinc.com/chump/
# [11:33] <karlUshi> example of use
# [11:33] <karlUshi> http://swig.xmlhack.com/
# [11:33] <Charl> krijnh: cool bill me any time, i'll pay you in south african rands, they're not worth anything in europe anyway :)
# [11:34] <krijnh> Hehe
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# [11:50] <krijnh> Charl: How is Fidelis going btw?
# [11:51] <karlUshi> I'm off for today.
# [11:52] <Charl> krijnh: sorry was away from the keyboard quickly
# [11:52] <Charl> krijnh: am busy getting started on a very simple blogging system
# [11:52] <Charl> krijnh: can't stand WP any longer
# [11:53] <krijnh> (Use QMS)
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# [11:53] * krijnh (n=krijnhoe@ktk.xs4all.nl) has joined #whatwg
# [11:53] <krijnh> Whoops
# [11:54] * bzed (n=bzed@dslb-084-059-106-088.pools.arcor-ip.net) has joined #whatwg
# [12:02] * annevk (n=annevk@86.90.70.28) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
# [12:03] <krijnh> http://blog.whatwg.org/html5lib-09-released#comment-2345
# [12:10] * annevk (n=annevk@86.90.70.28) has joined #whatwg
# [12:14] <annevk> seems like we might get Animated PNG soonish
# [12:14] <annevk> in Mozilla that is
# [12:14] <annevk> otoh, that has been going on for some time now as well...
# [12:39] * ravenn (n=ravenn@203-217-66-65.dyn.iinet.net.au) has joined #whatwg
# [12:46] <Lachy> krijnh, thanks, spam is removed
# [12:46] <krijnh> Np
# [12:47] <krijnh> Lachy: Are you still working on Fidelis?
# [12:47] <Lachy> when I have time
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# [13:10] * Hemebond (n=Hemebond@203-118-179-242.bliink.ihug.co.nz) has joined #whatwg
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# [13:13] * annevk wonders if people considered that Hixie works for the company that does Youtube
# [13:14] <krijnh> I hadn't
# [13:15] * Lachy wonders if Hixie's actually had a chance to discuss <video> with the people that work on youtube
# [13:16] <Hemebond> <video>?
# [13:16] <Lachy> Hemebond, yes
# [13:16] <Hemebond> Surely there's not to be an element <video>...
# [13:17] <annevk> surely there is
# [13:17] <Lachy> http://whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#video
# [13:17] <Hemebond> *saigh*
# [13:17] <Hemebond> er
# [13:17] <Hemebond> *sigh*
# [13:18] <annevk> see topic
# [13:18] <krijnh> annevk: I only considered you're working for the company that's already testing with <video> :)
# [13:18] <Lachy> why?
# [13:18] <annevk> s/testing/playing/
# [13:18] <Hemebond> "Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!"
# [13:18] <krijnh> annevk: Same to me
# [13:18] <Hemebond> That's what I forgot to do. I only hung up my coat.
# [13:18] <annevk> krijnh, fair enough
# [13:19] <Lachy> Hemebond, why don't you like the idea of <video>
# [13:19] <Hemebond> Because it's a step backwards.
# [13:19] <Lachy> how so?
# [13:19] <annevk> Hemebond, you did read the proposal, did you?
# [13:19] <Hemebond> I would have liked to see more generalisation.
# [13:19] <Hemebond> No.
# [13:19] <Hemebond> Wait a second...
# [13:19] <Hemebond> Who are you Anne?
# [13:20] <Hemebond> Not http://annevankesteren.nl/2007/03/public-html ...
# [13:20] <Lachy> <video> offers a specific a API for working with video using script
# [13:20] <annevk> Hemebond, http://www.google.com/search?q=anne
# [13:20] <Hemebond> Heh. It was your latest post that led me here.
# [13:20] <annevk> Hemebond, yes, I wrote that
# [13:20] <annevk> cool
# [13:20] <annevk> welcome
# [13:21] <Hemebond> Thanks.
# [13:21] <Lachy> Hemebond, if you don't like video, you might not like the idea of <audio> either, which is currently being discussed :-)
# [13:22] <Hemebond> Heh. Doesn't appeal to me, no.
# [13:22] <krijnh> I think there's more use for <video> than for <audio>
# [13:23] <Lachy> I think we need <audio> or at least improve the Audio() API
# [13:23] <krijnh> <video role="just-an-audio-wrapper" src="music.mp3">
# [13:24] <Lachy> there is no role attr in HTML5
# [13:24] <krijnh> There's kidding in my line though
# [13:24] <Lachy> <audio> would be cool if browsers could provide their own UI or even visualisations
# [13:24] <virtuelv> Hemebond: why exactly don't you like <video>?
# [13:25] <Hemebond> I prefer generalisation.
# [13:25] <Hemebond> <object>
# [13:26] <annevk> why is generalization good?
# [13:26] <virtuelv> Hemebond: besides the API complexity annevk has pointed at, there is one more issue: author simplicity
# [13:26] <annevk> i mean, "I prefer <tag>"
# [13:26] <Hemebond> Heh
# [13:26] <annevk> pretty meaningless
# [13:27] <virtuelv> you can (mostly) use <object> in place of <img> today, and have richer fallbacks, or multiple fallbacks, yet virtually noone uses it
# [13:27] <Hemebond> I do.
# [13:27] <Hemebond> I love object.
# [13:29] <annevk> that's about the only advantage of <object> over <img>
# [13:29] <annevk> and generally you don't need richer fallback so it's not much of a problem
# [13:30] <virtuelv> annevk: my point exactly
# [13:31] <Hemebond> Wasn't the whole point of <object> to get away from the "tag for everything" problem?
# [13:31] <Hemebond> Or "issue"?
# [13:32] <annevk> I think so
# [13:32] <annevk> since then we found out that it doesn't work
# [13:32] <Hemebond> It doesn't?
# [13:32] <annevk> too complex for implementors/authors, too complex to make sophisticated APIs for specialized content
# [13:33] <krijnh> People can still use object of course
# [13:33] <annevk> not really semantic
# [13:33] <krijnh> If they want to use a not-so-open format and a browser plugin
# [13:33] <annevk> yeah, although I think <embed> is prolly more compatible for that
# [13:33] <krijnh> Probably
# [13:35] <krijnh> <object> is for external plugins (basically), <img>, <video> and <audio> are cross platform, cross UA elements
# [13:37] <annevk> <object> is also ok for SVG, and HTML documents although I suppose you might as well use <iframe>
# [13:37] <Lachy> I assume <video> doesn't have to mean native support, does it? Surely whether or not some format is supported natively or with a plugin is just an implementation detail?
# [13:37] <annevk> Lachy, I think that's the plan although not everyone agrees
# [13:37] <krijnh> Hmm, then I don't think <video> makes sense
# [13:37] <annevk> howcome for instance, thinks it should imply native support
# [13:37] <krijnh> Or are the methods just passed on to the plugin?
# [13:37] <annevk> krijnh, why? It's about the API and semantics, not about content
# [13:38] <Hemebond> Couldn't semantics be implied by the content-type?
# [13:38] <annevk> Hemebond, too late imo
# [13:38] <Lachy> as long as the browser can pass it's API calls onto the plugin, there shouldn't be a problem
# [13:38] <Hemebond> Too late?
# [13:38] <annevk> you want the semantics to be clear before fetching data
# [13:39] <Hemebond> What about the type attribute?
# [13:39] <Lachy> though, if the system as a codec for some format, then the browser should just be able to use that and run it natively
# [13:39] <krijnh> I agree
# [13:39] <annevk> Hemebond, that's only relevant when data= isn't set
# [13:39] <annevk> Hemebond, if data= is set it's just ignored
# [13:39] <Hemebond> Oh is it? Hmm, I've always set both.
# [13:39] <krijnh> I think you'll get the same issues as with Real, QuickTime, etc else
# [13:40] <Hemebond> Oh I see. HTML 5 has that.
# [13:40] <annevk> Hemebond, browsers too
# [13:40] <annevk> Hemebond, you're allowed to set both though
# [13:40] <Hemebond> Oh.
# [13:40] <annevk> topic ;)
# [13:40] <Lachy> the major problem I have with making it only native support is that most digital cameras available today only capture in patented formats, so that would make <video> useless to all those who don't know how/want to convert
# [13:41] <Hemebond> Topic? Is there a specific topic I should be keeping to?
# [13:41] <annevk> Hemebond, don't assume things are logical
# [13:41] <Lachy> Hemebond, no.
# [13:41] <Hemebond> Oh I see.
# [13:41] <Hemebond> But I want logiiiiiiic *whine*
# [13:41] <Lachy> converstaions often get chaotic in here, and I often just say random things
# [13:41] <krijnh> Same here :)
# [13:41] <krijnh> And half of what I say makes no sense anyway
# [13:42] <Hemebond> Are you a spec?
# [13:42] <krijnh> Who?
# [13:42] <Hemebond> NVM
# [13:44] <Hemebond> I guess I'll stick to learning XHTML2
# [13:44] <krijnh> I think the openness of the web is more expressed in <videmus> than in <video> btw :p
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# [13:45] <annevk> Hemebond, XHTML2? And use it where?
# [13:46] <Hemebond> I dunno.
# [13:46] <Hemebond> I just like it, is all.
# [13:46] <Hemebond> I could use XSL to tranform it to regular XHTML1.1
# [13:47] <krijnh> Client side XSL?
# [13:47] <mpt> Esperanto!
# [13:47] <Hemebond> Could do.
# [13:47] <krijnh> Why would you want that?
# [13:47] <Hemebond> *shrug*
# [13:48] <Hemebond> I don't make websites for a living anymore.
# [13:48] <Lachy> what do you do for a living?
# [13:48] <krijnh> Are you going to again? :)
# [13:49] <Hemebond> krijnh: I spend a lot of time reading about it. Playing with it. But then I think of the customers, the incompatibilities, IE, etc...
# [13:49] <Hemebond> And I'm not sure I could be bothered with it.
# [13:49] <Hemebond> Lachy: Network technician.
# [13:51] <krijnh> Hemebond: Then why stick to learning xhtml2?
# [13:51] <Hemebond> I think it's a nice evolution of XHTML
# [13:52] <Hemebond> And HTML in general.
# [13:52] <Lachy> trust us, it's not
# [13:52] <Lachy> it has too many flaws
# [13:52] <Hemebond> It does?
# [13:52] <annevk> So which parts exactly do you like?
# [13:52] <Hemebond> I admit I've only looked at it breifly.
# [13:53] <Hemebond> I like the idea of <section><h>
# [13:53] <annevk> I mean, we tried to incorperate all good ideas into HTML5
# [13:53] <annevk> That'd be one of those ideas :)
# [13:53] <Lachy> e.g. href on any element: browser vendors have said that's very difficult to implement
# [13:53] <krijnh> :)
# [13:53] <Lachy> same with src="", and many other global attributes
# [13:54] <krijnh> That's the generalisation part Hemebond likes, I think
# [13:54] <Lachy> the spec itself leaves many things totally undefined
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# [13:55] <Lachy> from an authoring perspective, global attributes look nice on the surface. There was a time when I thought the idea was great, till I looked at the reality of the situation
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# [13:56] <krijnh> Is there a thread about the alternatives?
# [13:56] <krijnh> Like, not href on every element, but on some?
# [13:56] <krijnh> <img href>
# [13:57] <Lachy> still a problem with backwards compat
# [13:57] <krijnh> True
# [13:58] <annevk> note that <a> is not just href=
# [13:58] <annevk> <a> is quite complex
# [13:58] <annevk> the proposal effectively makes every element that much more complex
# [13:58] <annevk> for not that much benefit (besides the fact that it breaks backwards compatibility)
# [13:58] <krijnh> And every piece of software which checks "links" as well
# [13:58] <Lachy> yes, if href goes on any element, we'd also need target, ping, rel, media ,hreflang and type
# [13:59] <annevk> and the API
# [13:59] <annevk> and we need to define what happens for elements which now have multiple activation behaviors
# [13:59] <annevk> such as <input>
# [13:59] <Lachy> and type="" would clash with other uses of type on other elements
# [13:59] <annevk> i should blog about this too i think
# [14:00] <krijnh> You should :)
# [14:00] <Lachy> I should blog about something too. it's been about a month since I've posted :-)
# [14:00] <krijnh> And say that <a> should just allow block level elements
# [14:00] <Lachy> I even forgot to post on my b'day!
# [14:00] <krijnh> Which solves the problem mostly, I guess
# [14:00] <krijnh> And is backwards compatible
# [14:01] * Lachy has a draft post about the problems with Outlook to post soon, plus some more on XBL
# [14:01] * annevk wants an impl of XBL
# [14:02] <Hemebond> Mozilla not enough?
# [14:02] <krijnh> Lachy: You were too busy licking Tim ;)
# [14:02] <annevk> it's like a new box of tricks
# [14:02] <annevk> Hemebond, I meant XBL2
# [14:02] <Hemebond> Ah.
# [14:02] <Lachy> XBL2, Moz only has XBL1
# [14:02] <Lachy> did someone post a photo of me on timwouldlickti?
# [14:03] <Lachy> the other Lachlan's been licked so many times, I feel like I'm missing out ;-)
# [14:07] <krijnh> Aaw, poor you :)
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# [14:50] <annevk> hmm, do implementations also check <?xml encoding="x"?> for character encoding sniffing in text/html?
# [14:51] <Lachy> I don't think so
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# [14:56] <annevk> according to a WebKit dev they do
# [14:56] <Lachy> maybe web kit does, but I'm fairly sure IE and FF don't
# [14:57] * Lachy makes a test case...
# [14:57] <annevk> IE is what matters i suppose
# [14:57] <annevk> XHR encoding detection is a mess too
# [14:58] <annevk> it doesn't actually follow any rules or something
# [14:58] <Lachy> the test showed that FF does, IE doesn't
# [14:59] <Lachy> I'm sure Hixie would have tested that when he wrote the encoding sniffing algorithm
# [14:59] <Lachy> does XHR follow XML rules for XML types?
# [15:00] <annevk> well yes
# [15:00] <annevk> but there's also responseText
# [15:00] <Lachy> oh good
# [15:00] <Lachy> yeah, I expected there to be problems with that
# [15:00] <annevk> at some point the fallback has to be UTF-8
# [15:00] <annevk> for when no content-type is provided
# [15:00] <annevk> for when it's text/plain
# [15:01] <Lachy> I think you can probably adopt the HTML5 algorithm for text/html
# [15:01] <annevk> implementors say no
# [15:01] <Lachy> really?
# [15:01] <Lachy> why is text/html for XHR any different from other text/html?
# [15:01] <annevk> well XHR doesn't follow text/css either atm
# [15:02] <annevk> simplified:
# [15:02] <annevk> 1) if the response Content-Type specifies a charset, use it;
# [15:02] <annevk> 2) otherwise, if the response is XML follow XML rules;
# [15:02] <annevk> 3) otherwise, if Content-Type is not specified or empty, also follow XML rules;
# [15:02] <annevk> 4) otherwise, use utf-8, and do not look inside the response data.
# [15:03] <annevk> not entirely clear to me how you arrive at 4 or how 3 would work
# [15:03] <Lachy> does IE fallback to UTF-8 like that?
# [15:04] <annevk> it seems so, although Bjoern discovered some other incompatibilities iirc
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# [15:57] <annevk> the part on <script> should prolly deal with  in script blocks...
# [15:57] <annevk> or does ECMAScript deal with that?
# [15:58] <virtuelv> annevk: ecma-262-3 or 4 doesn't really deal with angle brackets at all
# [15:59] <virtuelv> I would be fine if it was specified that browsers just ignore it
# [15:59] <virtuelv> the problem is when you have constructs such as <script>bar) --></script>
# [15:59] <virtuelv> where does that comment end?
# [16:00] <annevk> I suppose HTML would have to define it then
# [16:00] <annevk> prolly makes more sense too
# [16:02] <virtuelv> the bizarre thing is that the comments have been fluff since Netscape 2.0, or so
# [16:03] <krijnh> Yet 'everybody' still adds them
# [16:03] <virtuelv> krijnh: sadly, yes
# [16:03] <virtuelv> I've advocated that people drop them for years
# [16:04] <Lachy> sadly, there's actually a "modern" browser that requires the comments :-( Luckly, it can mostly be ignored
# [16:04] <krijnh> Which one?
# [16:04] <virtuelv> Lachy: which?
# [16:04] <Lachy> the Motorolla v3 phone browser
# [16:05] <virtuelv> in that case, ignore it
# [16:05] <Lachy> it sucks big time
# [16:05] <Lachy> I have to deal with it for the mobile sites I build at work
# [16:05] <krijnh> In any case, external scripts
# [16:05] <Lachy> yeah, external scripts should be used anyway
# [16:06] <Lachy> though, not in all cases
# [16:06] * annevk was mainly asking this as implementor / testcase writer
# [16:07] <Lachy> /--> gets ignored by the script engine because it's commented out, it causes an error if it's not commented
# [16:07] <Lachy> <!-- should be ignroed by the script engine
# [16:08] <Lachy> I know in CSS, the CSS parser specifically deals with
# [16:08] <krijnh> With inline css?
# [16:09] <Lachy> within <style></style> and in external style sheets. I don't think within style="" is allowed
# [16:09] <Lachy> check CSS2.1 syntax for an accurate answer
# [16:11] <krijnh> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/syndata.html#comments
# [16:11] <krijnh> Doh, makes sense
# [16:11] <virtuelv> annevk: mostly, //.*--> gets ignored by the script parser
# [16:11] <virtuelv> <!-- gets ignored
# [16:12] <virtuelv> --> does not get ignored by everyone at least
# [16:12] <virtuelv> constructing a test case is a bit hard, though
# [16:12] <Lachy> --> causes syntax errors if it's not commented out with // or /* */
# [16:13] <virtuelv> Lachy: again 'if (foo-->bar){ doSomething() } ' is, IIRC; perfectly legal ECMA syntax
# [16:13] <Lachy> I think if <!-- appears in an external script, where it isn't touched by the HTML parser, the script engine handles it fine
# [16:13] <virtuelv> ecmascript*
# [16:14] <annevk> Lachy, for some value of "fine" I suppose?
# [16:14] <annevk> in CSS that wouldn't work for instance
# [16:14] <Lachy> what wouldn't work in CSS?
# [16:15] <annevk> <!-- body { background:lime } in an external file
# [16:15] <annevk> where
# [16:15] <annevk> data:text/html,<style>%0a<!--body { background:lime }</style><body>test
# [16:15] <annevk> does work
# [16:16] <Lachy> it should do, the CSS sytnax rules looks like CDO and CDC are allowed to appear there
# [16:17] <Lachy> stylesheet : [ CDO | CDC | S | statement ]*;
# [16:23] <Lachy> good night
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# [16:24] <annevk> oh, maybe i was mistaken
# [16:24] <annevk> i suppose i confused it with people having <style> in their external style sheet
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# [18:27] <krijnh> annevk: Do you know if Mark Wubben is on irc somewhere?
# [18:28] <hasather> krijnh: I can ask him to join here
# [18:28] <krijnh> There should be a #sifr channel on this server, but there isn't one :)
# [18:29] * markwubben (n=mark@117-226-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) has joined #whatwg
# [18:29] <hasather> hey markwubben
# [18:29] <annevk> magic
# [18:29] <krijnh> Magic indeed
# [18:29] <krijnh> :)
# [18:29] <markwubben> krijnh: two people started asking me to join!
# [18:29] <markwubben> (namely david and anne)
# [18:29] <krijnh> Hehe, hooray for IM
# [18:30] <krijnh> markwubben: where is #sifr ?
# [18:30] <krijnh> Or can I just bug you with a question? :)
# [18:30] <markwubben> perhaps in #osflash, nobody ever came to the sifr channel so i stopped hanging out
# [18:30] <markwubben> sure
# [18:31] <krijnh> Using 2.0.2, IE uses <object> in stead of <embed>, which it did in 2.0.1
# [18:32] <krijnh> Is that a bug or correct behaviour?
# [18:32] <markwubben> correct
# [18:32] <krijnh> K
# [18:32] <markwubben> IE screwed up after the Eolas patch
# [18:32] <krijnh> Cause the flashvars are added as a query string to the swf
# [18:32] <markwubben> using embed
# [18:32] <markwubben> on some machines
# [18:32] <markwubben> correct, and that's beginning to bite
# [18:32] <krijnh> Yeah, pretty irritating
# [18:32] <markwubben> reason is, if you don't and the innerhtml of an ancestor is changed, ie will forget the vars
# [18:33] <markwubben> i didn't quite realize back then that it would cause other problems
# [18:33] <markwubben> but you should use sifr 3 anyway
# [18:33] <markwubben> ;)
# [18:33] <krijnh> I should
# [18:33] <krijnh> :)
# [18:33] <krijnh> Ready for public?
# [18:36] <markwubben> the latest nigthly is pretty good
# [18:37] <krijnh> Pretty good as in it can be used on nfu.nl ?
# [18:37] <markwubben> one issue with IE that could cause issues, but i haven't been able to look further into it
# [18:37] <markwubben> it's a lot better than 2.0.2
# [18:38] <markwubben> the IE issue appears to be minor, and only occurs if you have an innerhtml dom manipulation right inside the page (so no onload events etc)
# [18:38] <markwubben> so yea, use it
# [18:38] <krijnh> Okay, I will
# [18:38] <markwubben> just make sure to stay up to date with newer versions
# [18:38] <krijnh> That's the problem
# [18:38] <markwubben> not all, but important fixes and releases
# [18:38] <markwubben> yea i know :)
# [18:38] <krijnh> I don't have control over this server :/
# [18:40] <krijnh> And I hope TYPO3 won't screw up
# [18:40] <krijnh> Anyway
# [18:40] <krijnh> Thanks :)
# [18:40] <markwubben> well, let them decide then
# [18:40] <markwubben> sIFR 3 will save them a lot of bandwith
# [18:40] <markwubben> cause it fixes IE and Safari's problems with fetching the flash movies
# [18:41] <krijnh> I should convince them to use my cms and server then ;p
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# [18:48] <krijnh> markwubben: thanks, je mag weer gaan ;o)
# [18:48] <markwubben> lol
# [18:48] <markwubben> i'll stick around until colloquy restarts
# [18:48] <krijnh> :)
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# [19:07] <zcorpan_> Charl: i've made some changes to the status script
# [19:08] <Charl> cool, can i re-upload for you?
# [19:08] <zcorpan_> sure
# [19:08] <Charl> ok hold on
# [19:08] <Charl> my firefox is crashing as usual :)
# [19:09] <zcorpan_> using trunk?
# [19:09] <Charl> yeah
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# [19:19] <Charl> zcorpan_: sorry my checked out copy is at work and i need to go home, my mom is shouting already ;)
# [19:19] <Charl> i'll look at it first thing tomorrow morning for you
# [19:19] <Charl> cheers all
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# [20:20] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-tagmem-minutes.html#item04
# [20:21] <annevk> hmm
# [20:21] <annevk> don't read that
# [20:21] <annevk> it's not interesting
# [20:21] <sayrer> sure isn't ;)
# [20:22] <annevk> and those are the people making up the web architecture...
# [20:22] <annevk> right
# [20:22] <sayrer> well, it is politically difficult for them to say things we would like to hear
# [20:23] <sayrer> so one can never tell if they get it or not from public records
# [20:25] <Hixie> wrt the earlier comment, yes, i spoke to both the youtube people and the google video people
# [20:32] <Hixie> i love all the discussions about whether we should allow native ui
# [20:32] <Hixie> i've already specced that feature, it's just commented out...
# [20:32] <annevk> the discussion is about having it by default
# [20:33] <annevk> fwiw
# [20:33] <sayrer> Hixie, why is it commented out?
# [20:33] <annevk> (well, part of it anyway)
# [20:33] <annevk> sayrer, complexity of the intitial impl
# [20:33] <Hixie> it's commented out as part of the many simpliciations for v1
# [20:33] <Hixie> if we require v1 to have ui, then people will criticise it when the ui sucks
# [20:33] <sayrer> I see
# [20:33] <Hixie> as, e.g., they have with wf2 and opera's ui
# [20:34] <Hixie> and that will give a lot of strength to the argument that we should drop video altogether
# [20:34] <Hixie> (not really a valid argument, but that rarely matters in wg discussions, sadly)
# [20:34] <Hixie> (i'm talking about it getting removed if this gets to the html wg, btw)
# [20:35] <sayrer> I agree with your parenthetical reasoning
# [20:35] <annevk> if the UI really needs to be there by default it will be in the end anyway
# [20:36] <Hixie> i'm also a little confused by the "either we use <object> or we have an element per media type!" arguments
# [20:36] <sayrer> my only concern is dimensions
# [20:36] <Hixie> why can't we use <object> for the uncommon cases and have elements for the important ones...
# [20:36] <Hixie> sayrer: of?
# [20:36] <annevk> Hixie, that's not logical (apparently)
# [20:36] <sayrer> of <video> given presence of a native UI
# [20:36] * Hixie points to the topic again
# [20:37] <Hixie> sayrer: ah yes
# [20:37] * annevk only points out what's being said
# [20:37] <Hixie> sayrer: yeah that's one of the tough ones
# [20:37] <Hixie> sayrer: should it be inside the box, outside the box, etc
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# [21:03] <Hixie> no controversial e-mails in the various lists i watch
# [21:03] <Hixie> how sad
# [21:03] <Hixie> ok bbl
# [21:03] * annevk wonders what counts as controversial these days
# [21:04] <annevk> <xxx src>
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# [21:13] <ROBOd> annevk: that's not controversial :)
# [21:13] <annevk> <nigger>?
# [21:13] <ROBOd> ok, *that* might be
# [21:14] <ROBOd> :)
# [21:14] <annevk> yeah, might...
# [21:14] <annevk> oh well, got to go
# [21:14] <ROBOd> depends who's on the mailing list
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# [21:17] <zcorpan_> we still get spammers to the forum :(
# [21:19] <ROBOd> zcorpan_: phpbb, that's what i call spam
# [21:19] <ROBOd> for a forum i host on my server i made some patches, to fight against spammers
# [21:20] <zcorpan_> what patches?
# [21:20] <ROBOd> first of all, i configured phpbb so that registration requires permission from moderators
# [21:20] <ROBOd> but that's not enough...
# [21:20] <zcorpan_> how do you do that?
# [21:21] <ROBOd> in the administration module
# [21:21] <ROBOd> however, that's not enough, because spammers will, anyway, signup, and until you delete their account
# [21:21] <ROBOd> their account profile will be public
# [21:21] <ROBOd> url, occupation, email and all the values they can fill into the profile
# [21:21] <ROBOd> all spam keywords... they are all visible
# [21:21] <ROBOd> so, my patches deal with that
# [21:22] <zcorpan_> would be great if you could send your patches to hixie
# [21:22] <ROBOd> inactive accounts don't show in "The newest registered user is ..."
# [21:22] <ROBOd> simple users can't see the profile of inactive accounts
# [21:23] <zcorpan_> "Enable account activation: Admin"?
# [21:23] <ROBOd> yes
# [21:24] <ROBOd> and in the members list, no other value (such as location), except the username, is displayed in the page
# [21:24] <ROBOd> for normal users, again
# [21:24] <ROBOd> admins see no difference
# [21:24] <ROBOd> zcorpan_: shall i send the patches to Hixie?
# [21:25] <zcorpan_> yes please
# [21:25] <ROBOd> i will also make them public, on my server
# [21:25] <zcorpan_> ok
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# [21:39] <Hixie> if we require moderator permissions, we'd better have active moderators :-)
# [21:50] <Dashiva> How about just routing registration through IRC?
# [21:52] <Lachy> hey kingryan, yt?
# [21:55] <Lachy> kingryan, I wanted to know if it would be possible to set up a copy of 'mfbot' that you use of #microformats, but for announcing changes to the whatwg wiki.
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# [22:01] <ROBOd> Hixie: other changes can't be made quickly, to phpbb
# [22:01] <ROBOd> another forum is needed, but any system is susceptible to spam like that
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# [22:02] <ROBOd> in my case i tried to make it irrelevant for me if the spammer tries to signup
# [22:02] <ROBOd> and, on the forum i host, i am not the moderator who deals with the account activations...
# [22:04] <zcorpan_> obviously it would be better if spammers didn't get though the registration in the first place
# [22:04] <zcorpan_> or even find the registration page
# [22:04] * Dashiva repeats IRC suggestion
# [22:05] <ROBOd> zcorpan_: correct, change the phpbb system
# [22:05] <ROBOd> i also dislike it spammers can signup
# [22:06] <zcorpan_> ROBOd: i did a modification, but it wasn't enough
# [22:06] <ROBOd> zcorpan_: preparing the patches
# [22:07] <ROBOd> zcorpan_: i didn't do any modification to the actual signup process
# [22:07] <ROBOd> i didn't want to bother too much :)
# [22:07] <ROBOd> what did you change?
# [22:07] <zcorpan_> the name of the captcha field
# [22:07] <Dashiva> What if you rotated the field names? :)
# [22:08] <zcorpan_> that could work
# [22:08] <zcorpan_> use name="email" for something else, and the something else for the email
# [22:10] <zcorpan_> or use NCRs
# [22:10] <hasather> Dashiva: great idea, name="password" for password and name="repeatpassword" for e-mail or something probably confuses the bots
# [22:10] <hasather> or what zcorpan_ said
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# [22:19] <ROBOd> done, will send the patches now to Hixie
# [22:19] <zcorpan_> ROBOd: wait
# [22:19] <ROBOd> waiting now
# [22:19] <zcorpan_> perhaps swithing name=""s is enough
# [22:20] <zcorpan_> if it isn't then you can send it to hixie later
# [22:20] <ROBOd> they are very simple patches...
# [22:20] <ROBOd> only 3 files, and a few lines
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# [22:20] <zcorpan_> sure, but we don't want admin registration :)
# [22:21] <ROBOd> admin confirmation
# [22:21] <ROBOd> ok then ... i will publish the patches on my site, anyway :)
# [22:21] <zcorpan_> sure, thanks anyway :)
# [22:22] <ROBOd> no problem
# [22:25] <Dashiva> If it's going to be phpBB demand a strike-through mod
# [22:27] <ROBOd> a moderator will still be needed for the forums
# [22:27] <ROBOd> to clean inappropriate messages of users with no logic in their brains :)
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# [22:28] <ROBOd> (e.g. obscene messages, or otherwise vulgar messages)
# [22:41] <kingryan> Lachy: hi, I'm here now
# [22:42] <kingryan> mfbot is actually just a shell script tying together a few pieces that are built into mediawiki
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# [22:43] <kingryan> Lachy: here's mfbot in its entirety:
# [22:43] <kingryan> #!/bin/sh
# [22:43] <kingryan> cd /var/www/wiki/irc
# [22:43] <kingryan> php rcdumper.php -m \#microformats | ./mxircecho.py mfbot irc.freenode.net
# [22:47] <ROBOd> done, now i uploaded the patches on my site
# [22:47] <ROBOd> http://www.robodesign.ro/mihai/blog/phpbb-2-fighting-spam
# [22:47] <ROBOd> if they are needed, they are now public
# [22:49] <Lachy> kingryan, thanks. How and where would I need to install it and set it up?
# [22:50] <ROBOd> gotta go now
# [22:50] <ROBOd> good night everyone
# [22:50] * ROBOd (n=robod@86.34.246.154) Quit ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
# [22:50] <kingryan> Lachy: for us it's installed on the same web host as the wiki (it hits the db directly)
# [22:51] <Lachy> I can install it on that host
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# [22:52] <kingryan> Lachy: we're also using an older version of mediawiki, so YMMV
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# [22:53] <Lachy> I gotta get ready for work, could you write and send me some step-by-step instructions for installing it?
# [22:54] <kingryan> there aren't really any steps, just run that shell script
# [22:54] <kingryan> though you may need to change some of the details
# [22:54] <Lachy> where do the files rcdumber.php and mxircecho.py come from?
# [22:55] <Lachy> s/rcdumber/rcdumper/
# [22:55] <kingryan> from mediawiki
# [22:55] <kingryan> at least they were in our version of it
# [22:55] <Lachy> ok, I'll give it a try after work today
# [22:58] <Lachy> we don't seem to have those files, but they're probably available somewhere online
# [23:00] <Dashiva> Very newest MW version, nice
# [23:00] <Lachy> oh, I just remembered dreamhost apparently doesn't allow IRC, I probably wouldn't be allowed to set it up anyway :-(
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# [23:14] <Hixie> zcorpan_: done (what does it do?)
# [23:15] <Hixie> gotta love some of the mails to whatwg
# [23:15] <Hixie> "i'm not an expert in any of the relevant topics, but here's my opinion anyway"
# [23:15] <Hixie> especially amusing given that people who _are_ experts have already given their opinion.
# [23:15] <zcorpan_> Hixie: it changes the captcha's name to "email" and the email's name to "sneaky" (NRC escaped to confuse bots even more)
# [23:16] <Hixie> ah so it has to be a real human who posts basically
# [23:16] <zcorpan_> Hixie: well, it's good they say they're not experts so i don't have to read it ;)
# [23:17] <zcorpan_> Hixie: hopefully, yes
# [23:17] <Hixie> let me know how that goes
# [23:17] <zcorpan_> sure
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# [23:20] <Dashiva> I've been wondering, is Chris Wilson joining the html wg "enough"?
# [23:21] <Hixie> enough for what?
# [23:21] <Dashiva> To get meaningful participation from microsoft
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# [23:21] <Hixie> what would you consider meaningful?
# [23:22] <Dashiva> Resulting changes in the browser
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# [23:24] <Hixie> i don't think that's up to anyone but management at microsoft
# [23:25] <zcorpan_> Dashiva: probably a more effective way to get changes in the browser is to submit bug reports
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The end :)