/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-03-20 / end

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1. # [0:02] * BenWard (n=BenWard@cpc3-cmbg2-0-0-cust58.cmbg.cable.ntl.com) has joined #whatwg
2. # [0:03] <othermaciej_> Dashiva: I think more people from MS than him will join
3. # [0:03] <othermaciej_> Dashiva: and I also think that while IE implementing the spec would be better, we can't consider it a showstopper for progress
4. # [0:03] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
5. # [0:05] <Dashiva> Oh, I wasn't really thinking like that. More if him joining was a sign of intended action, or more of a personal thing on his behalf
6. # [0:06] <Hixie> probably a mixture -- after all, his personal beliefs presumably have a big impact on IE
7. # [0:09] <othermaciej> he is the IE Platform Architect, so one would assume his opinions carry some weight there
8. # [0:14] * karlUshi (n=karl@124-144-94-185.rev.home.ne.jp) Quit ("Where dwelt Ymir, or wherein did he find sustenance?")
9. # [0:19] * Hixie wonders how the people who support MPEG4 plan on letting Firefox and other free browsers pay for the MPEG4 license fees
10. # [0:20] * Lachy_ (n=chatzill@58.105.240.232) has joined #whatwg
11. # [0:21] <othermaciej> it's not a per-unit royalty
12. # [0:21] <Hixie> what is it "per" then?
13. # [0:21] <othermaciej> MPEG-LA (I think) licenses based on approximate size of mpeg-related business you are doing
14. # [0:21] <othermaciej> so MoCo/MoFo would presumably owe some fixed amount
15. # [0:21] <Hixie> so how would that work for, say, linux distros?
16. # [0:22] <othermaciej> otoh such code could not be under MPL/LGPL/GPL triple license, would need to be something else
17. # [0:22] <Hixie> that's rather a blocker
18. # [0:22] <othermaciej> well, it's fine to link a seperate library licensed under, say, BSD license, to an MPL/LGPL/GPL library
19. # [0:22] <othermaciej> I don't know the details
20. # [0:23] <othermaciej> and I don't mean to advocate adding an MPEG4 requirement
21. # [0:23] <Hixie> sure
22. # [0:23] * Hixie doesn't really care about the codec himself, it's just that he has to take into account the needs of people who are distributing software without any financial backing
23. # [0:24] <Hixie> which rather puts any fees of any kind out of the window
24. # [0:24] * markwubben (n=mark@117-226-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) Quit ()
25. # [0:25] <othermaciej> I don't know the details of when the fees apply, but it might not preclude that as long as licenses the patent
26. # [0:27] <Hixie> as long as who licenses the patent?
27. # [0:27] <othermaciej> er, sorry
28. # [0:27] <othermaciej> I don't know if I want to make claims about this b/c I have not studied the terms
29. # [0:28] * moeffju[away] is now known as moeffju
30. # [0:28] <othermaciej> but I think for example that it is possible to bundle the QuickTime plugin without paying the patent license because Apple has paid for it
31. # [0:28] <othermaciej> so analogous condition could apply for other vendors
32. # [0:28] <othermaciej> but like I said, don't take my word for it
33. # [0:28] <othermaciej> just don't assume it is unworkable either
34. # [0:28] <Hixie> seems to me that if it was that simple, someone would have paid the license fee already and linux distros would be happily shipping the codec
35. # [0:30] <tantek> or it could just be transactional friction
36. # [0:30] <tantek> which prevent many things "that if it was that simple" from ever happening.
37. # [0:32] <Hixie> what do you mean by transactional friction?
38. # [0:34] * Hixie begins replying to the 206 <video> element e-mails
39. # [0:34] * othermaciej_ (i=mjs@nat/apple/x-f9f4f9f128aaffb0) has joined #whatwg
40. # [0:36] <Hixie> 50 people sent messages to this thread
41. # [0:36] <Hixie> that's an average of 4 mails per person
42. # [0:39] * zcorpan_ has sent one email on <video>
43. # [0:40] <Hixie> that's great though, means that we have at least 10% active participants on the whatwg list
44. # [0:40] <Hixie> that's high
45. # [0:41] <zcorpan_> i know some who are subscribed but i haven't seen any mails from them to the list
46. # [0:41] <Hixie> oh there are hundreds of lurkers, sure
47. # [0:41] <Hixie> that's pretty normal
48. # [0:41] <zcorpan_> yup
49. # [0:42] * othermaciej (i=mjs@nat/apple/x-9c192c7c979df1e1) Quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
50. # [0:43] <zcorpan_> i've seen it being suggested that in forums, 1% post new threads, 10% reply to them, and the rest are lurkers
51. # [0:44] <zcorpan_> i guess the same figures could be applied to wg mailing lists
52. # [0:51] <Dashiva> whatwg is less scary to post to than public-html, at least :)
53. # [0:52] <tantek> Hixie, it means that nothing is as easy as simply "doing the work", that there is communication involved, that there are other things that are higher priority (opportunity costs) etc. all kinds of often dismissed costs of doing anything, however simple.
54. # [0:52] <Hixie> tantek: seems like the cost of not being able to play back any modern video content would offset that
55. # [0:53] <tantek> no because that is an unrealized gain, rather than a cost
56. # [0:53] <tantek> the two are different
57. # [0:53] <Dashiva> mplayer probably eats up most of the gain from video content
58. # [0:53] <Hixie> fair enough
59. # [0:53] <tantek> people dismiss unrealized gains ALL the time without even knowing it
60. # [0:54] <tantek> in fact, you and I are probably dimissing many unrealized gains right now, if we had time to actually think about them
61. # [0:54] <Hixie> wow, there's a majority in favour of the htmlwg having a f2f meeting
62. # [0:54] <Hixie> tantek: yeah
63. # [0:54] <othermaciej_> a lot of modern video is Flash or Windows Media, those patents might not be freely licensable
64. # [0:54] <Hixie> i wonder if the majority is because only people who actually want to go to a f2f bothered to reply
65. # [0:55] <Hixie> othermaciej_: true
66. # [0:55] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
67. # [0:55] <Dashiva> Hixie: How many votes?
68. # [0:56] <Hixie> 13 yes, 8 no. http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/ftf07/results
69. # [0:56] <Hixie> if you're an html wg member, fill the survey in: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/ftf07/
70. # [0:57] <Dashiva> "Hey Surveyman, don't forget to fill out those surveys"
71. # [0:57] <Dashiva> Those ads always amused me
72. # [0:58] <Hixie> of the people here, hasather, hendry, jgraham, hsivonen, citoyen, othermaciej, and probably others whom i haven't spotted in the list haven't filled in http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/ftf07/
73. # [0:58] <othermaciej> I will fill it in
74. # [0:59] <othermaciej> but I have to ask my corporate masters if I can offer to host on Apple's behalf
75. # [0:59] <Hixie> you want to host a meeting with over a 100 people?
76. # [0:59] * Hixie is very skeptical that such a meeting is even sensible
77. # [0:59] <othermaciej> I doubt 100 will actually show up
78. # [1:00] <othermaciej> I imagine the ratio of people showing up to nominal WG members will be similar to the ratio of people posting on the list to nominal list members
79. # [1:00] <Dashiva> Most of the new members coming via the whatwg invitation call are probably on private funding, so less likely to travel
80. # [1:01] * zcorpan_ has now filled in the survey
81. # [1:02] * Dashiva is trying to phrase the comments
82. # [1:02] <hasather> filled it in too
83. # [1:02] <Hixie> uh. the numbers just changed more towards the no.
84. # [1:02] <Hixie> i wonder who changed their minds.
85. # [1:04] <Hixie> oh maybe i was looking at the wrong results, nm.
86. # [1:05] <Dashiva> Need to get a job, become rich and wealthy...
87. # [1:06] <hasather> Dashiva: working at Opera this year?
88. # [1:06] <Dashiva> If they'll have me, that's the plan
89. # [1:07] <Dashiva> You?
90. # [1:07] <hasather> hopefully
91. # [1:07] <Dashiva> "Skal vi kjäka?"
92. # [1:08] <hasather> oh, don't get me started on funny norwegian words
93. # [1:08] <Hixie> that wasn't norwegian
94. # [1:08] <Hixie> norwegian doesn't have umlauts.
95. # [1:09] <Dashiva> I was making fun of a swedish phrase he used every day
96. # [1:09] <Hixie> :-)
97. # [1:09] <hasather> although with some weird norwegian-swedish-bastardaztion spelling
98. # [1:09] <Dashiva> How do you spell it?
99. # [1:10] <hasather> Ska vi käka? :)
100. # [1:10] <zcorpan_> nu blev jag hungrig :|
101. # [1:11] <Dashiva> Maybe we should use Japanese this summer, to avoid confusion
102. # [1:11] <hasather> (btw, my spelling of "bastardization" wasn't really good up there either)
103. # [1:17] <Hixie> hey, whatwg membership just hit a round 700
104. # [1:17] <Lachy_> I thought we already had over 700
105. # [1:18] <Hixie> it's been hovering around 69x for a while
106. # [1:18] <Lachy_> ok
107. # [1:20] <Hixie> oh crap, i know why there's so much <video> feedback on my pile
108. # [1:20] <Hixie> i forgot to delete the mails from the first one i sent out!
109. # [1:20] <Hixie> 123 mails, that's more like it
110. # [1:26] <zcorpan_> heh
111. # [1:51] <hsivonen> back in Finland
112. # [1:51] <hsivonen> I've made it to the HTML WG while I was away :-)
113. # [1:55] * karlUshi (n=karl@133.27.246.23) has joined #whatwg
114. # [2:01] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-180-242.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
115. # [2:02] <zcorpan_> karlUshi: btw, is there anything that needs to be done with the html wg home page? i could perhaps help with that
116. # [2:11] <karlUshi> zcorpan_: in which ways? For now, The page is mostly in the hands of Dan Connolly.
117. # [2:13] <Lachy_> karlUshi: something could be done to improve the design. I've seen a couple of complaints about the green on white
118. # [2:14] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) has joined #whatwg
119. # [2:20] <karlUshi> :) The green Yes the light green is too light, I will fix that.
120. # [2:21] <Hixie> what would be cool is if the htmlwg blog was open like the whatwg one
121. # [2:21] <karlUshi> For design, Groups are really not the best place to do things :)
122. # [2:21] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) Quit ("ERC Version 5.1.3 (IRC client for Emacs)")
123. # [2:21] <karlUshi> Hixie: that is call the Web :) no?
124. # [2:22] <Hixie> how do you mean?
125. # [2:22] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) has joined #whatwg
126. # [2:22] <karlUshi> anyone can publish something anywhere
127. # [2:22] <Hixie> well yeah but that's not the same thing as letting them publish on the group's own blog
128. # [2:22] <karlUshi> why?
129. # [2:23] <Hixie> well because people aren't typically subscribed to a random joe's blog, but they probably are subscribed to the htmlwg's blog
130. # [2:23] <Hixie> so you get more exposure
131. # [2:23] <Hixie> it also allows people in the community to get up on a soapbox every now and then and tell the world about something
132. # [2:23] <karlUshi> "ego wins"--
133. # [2:24] <karlUshi> It is not yet decided that it is a blog.
134. # [2:24] <Hixie> e.g. about html5lib 0.9, or the character encoding issue, etc
135. # [2:28] * karlUshi just noticed that the green in the sidebar was a bug from me
136. # [2:29] <karlUshi> green issue fixed
137. # [2:31] * bzed|afk is now known as bzed
138. # [2:32] <karlUshi> zcorpan_: any suggestions on design is welcome by private emails. Group discussions about design is sure to be a never ending story.
139. # [2:32] <zcorpan_> ok
140. # [2:33] <Lachy_> karlUshi: if the HTMLWG page does become a blog, then I agree that it should be a community blog. It's worked out reasonably well for us so far
141. # [2:34] <zcorpan_> it was pointed out in here before that the page shrinks when text size in increased. that could be solved by instead of using ems for the page margins, use "auto" and possibly a max-width in ems
142. # [2:34] <Lachy_> or at the very least, it should be open to all WG participants
143. # [2:34] <karlUshi> Lachy: I would prefer an aggregation of content, a king of planet with a tag. That would be more logical
144. # [2:35] <Hixie> hm
145. # [2:35] <karlUshi> s/king/kind/
146. # [2:35] <Hixie> should video position be in seconds with a float, or in milliseconds with an integer?
147. # [2:35] <karlUshi> and with a nofollow
148. # [2:35] <karlUshi> for meta
149. # [2:35] <Lachy_> karlUshi: no nofollow
150. # [2:35] <Hixie> (flash does seconds/float)
151. # [2:36] <karlUshi> "Ego wins"--
152. # [2:36] <hasather> Hixie: I vire for milliseconds, but don't ask me why
153. # [2:36] <hasather> s/svire/vote/
154. # [2:36] <zcorpan_> +1 for milliseconds
155. # [2:36] <Hixie> i prefer milliseconds too, purely to avoid floats
156. # [2:36] <Hixie> but
157. # [2:36] <Hixie> flash uses floats and seconds
158. # [2:36] <Hixie> tough call
159. # [2:37] <zcorpan_> does it matter?
160. # [2:37] <Hixie> well we don't want to be different for no good reason
161. # [2:37] <tantek> of course existing efforts are documented on the wiki right? ;)
162. # [2:37] <tantek> so that you can use examples to argue for one or the other
163. # [2:37] <zcorpan_> fair enough
164. # [2:37] * yod (n=ot@softbank221018155222.bbtec.net) has joined #whatwg
165. # [2:38] <Lachy_> hmm. not sure. If it were a int, then it would be restricted to 2"32 seconds. Is that sufficient for long videos?
166. # [2:38] <Lachy_> 2^23
167. # [2:38] <Lachy_> aargh!
168. # [2:38] <Lachy_> I mean 2^32
169. # [2:39] <Dashiva> 2^32 milliseconds = about 1200 hours, by my shoddy calculation
170. # [2:39] <Hixie> tantek: unfortunately i don't have the time to write the e-mail responses to these 123 e-mails, and document the wiki, and write a high quality spec. i only have time for two of those three.
171. # [2:39] <Hixie> it all ends up documented in the archives, though, since i reply to every e-mail
172. # [2:40] <Lachy_> yeah, I got about 1,193
173. # [2:40] <Lachy_> so that should be fine
174. # [2:40] <Hixie> Dashiva, Lachy: yeah there's no problem of one being too short or whatever
175. # [2:40] * ravenn (n=ravenn@203-217-66-65.dyn.iinet.net.au) has joined #whatwg
176. # [2:40] <zcorpan_> also, you would probably never need finer precision than milliseconds
177. # [2:41] <Lachy_> I prefer milliseconds then because floats are a pain
178. # [2:41] <Hixie> yeah
179. # [2:42] <tantek> Hixie, document the wiki, such that it contains sufficient content in response to the emails, send *one* email response to the list, bccing the 123 senders that says their input has been incorporated, and write a high quality spec.
180. # [2:42] <Dashiva> I prefer integers, but I also prefer seconds. Having to divide by 1000 all the time is an annoyance
181. # [2:43] <tantek> and instruct folks in the email to follow-up with specifics on the wiki
182. # [2:43] <Hixie> tantek: in my experience when spec writers don't reply to each e-mail individually, they tend to start ignoring feedback.
183. # [2:43] <Hixie> unintentionally, of course
184. # [2:43] <Hixie> but they start saying things like "oh that's covered on the wiki" or "that's like that other e-mail" and they start missing subtle arguments.
185. # [2:44] * jmhodges (n=jmh@cpe-65-189-255-241.woh.res.rr.com) has joined #whatwg
186. # [2:44] <Hixie> however, the whatwg wiki is open, so if you want to volunteer to take the e-mails and put them in the wiki, you are welcome to do so
187. # [2:44] <Hixie> (the other problem is that wiki feedback doesn't function well with my way of working, which is based on a LIFO stack of e-mails)
188. # [2:44] <tantek> Hixie, FYI: http://tantek.pbwiki.com/CommunicationProtocols re: wiki vs. email
189. # [2:45] <tantek> i receive too much email to do LIFO and get to "what matters"
190. # [2:45] <Hixie> well, replying to e-mail is basically my fulltime job
191. # [2:45] <Hixie> so i can keep up
192. # [2:47] <tantek> that doesn't sound like a very satisfying job :(
193. # [2:47] <Hixie> to each his own :-)
194. # [2:47] <karlUshi> :)
195. # [2:48] <Lachy_> I wish I were paid read and respond to e-mail, it might allow me to keep up with it all ;-)
196. # [2:49] <karlUshi> Lachy: I sent you the link already :p
197. # [2:49] <Lachy_> karlUshi: do you mean that job at the W3C in Japan?
198. # [2:49] <karlUshi> but do not think it is more satisfying to be paid to read and reply to them ;)
199. # [2:49] <karlUshi> Lachy: yes
200. # [2:53] * jmhodges (n=jmh@cpe-65-189-255-241.woh.res.rr.com) Quit ("Ex-Chat")
201. # [2:56] <tantek> BTW Hixie, did you mean FIFO?
202. # [2:57] <Hixie> my e-mail is actually LIFO, though i guess i deal with feedback in a random access monner
203. # [2:57] <Hixie> manner
204. # [2:58] <Hixie> whatwg feedback ends up in buckets that i then deal with en masse
205. # [2:58] <Hixie> (LIFO means i avoid the "reply to an e-mail that's already been replied to" thing)
206. # [2:59] <Hixie> zcorpan_: are you still in favour of an autoplay attribute? or do you think that can wait til v2?
207. # [2:59] <Dashiva> autoplay would allow (very minimal) non-script use even without script
208. # [3:00] <Dashiva> *without native UI
209. # [3:00] * tantek is a little bit amazed that requests for a <video> element are being taken seriously.
210. # [3:02] <zcorpan_> Hixie: it could wait til v2 i guess
211. # [3:02] <zcorpan_> v1 would mostly have to be scripted to be useful anyway
212. # [3:03] <zcorpan_> having only one declarative feature seems weird also ;)
213. # [3:03] <Hixie> zcorpan_: yeah that was my conclusion too
214. # [3:03] <Lachy_> Hixie, do you expect v2 to be published in this same spec, or is it something that will be published in HTML6?
215. # [3:03] <Hixie> dunno
216. # [3:03] <Hixie> canvas is already at "v2"
217. # [3:04] <Lachy_> ok, so it just depends upon how fast implementations come
218. # [3:04] <Hixie> pretty much
219. # [3:04] <kingryan> tantek: yeah, we shouldn't go video, and get rid of img at the same time
220. # [3:04] <zcorpan_> and if there's demand from authors, although judging from the list activity there already is demand :)
221. # [3:04] <kingryan> s/go/do/
222. # [3:05] <Lachy_> I wonder if <video> could make it into Firefox 4 (it's probably too late for FF3)
223. # [3:05] <zcorpan_> i wonder when wf2 features appear in firefox
224. # [3:06] <Lachy_> hopefully FF4 too
225. # [3:06] <Lachy_> I doubt IE8 will support it, I exect that they will just be focussing on DOM and CSS improvements before adding support for new HTML features
226. # [3:07] <tantek> as they should, right?
227. # [3:07] <Hixie> we can hope
228. # [3:08] <kingryan> ok, that was supposed to be sarcastic :D
229. # [3:08] <Hixie> hah
230. # [3:08] <Hixie> i have considered suggesting dropping <object>, based on the disaster that it is
231. # [3:08] <Hixie> but i don't think that would fly far
232. # [3:09] <kingryan> it either needs to be dropped or better speced
233. # [3:09] <Hixie> well it is "better specced" already in html5
234. # [3:09] <kingryan> and preferably the "better spec" would be based on actual experience of implementations that got it right
235. # [3:09] <Hixie> though it might still need to be yet better
236. # [3:09] <tantek> shouldn't be any harder than tables. *ducks*
237. # [3:09] <kingryan> that's true
238. # [3:09] * kingryan throws a table at tantek
239. # [3:11] <zcorpan_> Hixie: dropping as in disallow it in html5 documents or don't spec it at all?
240. # [3:11] <Hixie> as in disallow
241. # [3:12] <Hixie> we're gonna have to spec everything browsers support in due course
242. # [3:12] <Hixie> if we want it interoperable
243. # [3:12] <zcorpan_> ok
244. # [3:13] <zcorpan_> <embed> doesn't allow fallback, so whenever i use flash and want fallback i use <object> (with a <param> hack to make it work in ie), which works fairly well
245. # [3:13] <Lachy_> Object is still useful for flash
246. # [3:14] <Lachy_> if the spec can make it interoperable, I see no reason why it should be dropped
247. # [3:15] <Hixie> well, like i said, i don't think the suggestion would fly
248. # [3:15] <Hixie> one can dream, though
249. # [3:15] <karlUshi> Lachy: and given the fact that object support is not that bad.
250. # [3:15] <Lachy_> it's not that good either
251. # [3:15] <Dashiva> Object support is good, all five kinds of it :)
252. # [3:15] <karlUshi> I have to add the testing results from Dashiva this morning
253. # [3:16] <Hixie> <object> has gotted better since i added <object> to acid2 :-)
254. # [3:16] <Hixie> gotten
255. # [3:16] <Hixie> even
256. # [3:16] <Hixie> but it's true that <object> support is still poor overall
257. # [3:16] <Hixie> not surprising, though, it's overloaded to hell and back
258. # [3:16] <Hixie> it's just a generally badly designed and poorly specified idea
259. # [3:16] <Hixie> in html4
260. # [3:17] <zcorpan_> it was added to html4 after it was implemented in ie as an active x "object", wasn't it?
261. # [3:17] <Hixie> i don't know the history
262. # [3:17] <zcorpan_> think i've read that somewhere
263. # [3:17] <Hixie> if it was added to IE for ActiveX, though, then the HTML4 spec is even worse than i thought.
264. # [3:17] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
265. # [3:18] <Lachy_> that would explain why the spec has the useless IE only classid attr
266. # [3:18] <karlUshi> history is here - http://www.webstandards.org/learn/articles/askw3c/jun2004/
267. # [3:21] * hasather (n=hasather@81-235-209-174-no62.tbcn.telia.com) has left #whatwg
268. # [3:24] <Lachy_> karlUshi: do you know if any screen reader vendors, like JAWS and Windows Eyes, are planning to join the HTML WG?
269. # [3:24] <Hixie> is Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis here?
270. # [3:25] <karlUshi> Lachy: I do not know, but you are welcome to sen email to the appropriate persons
271. # [3:25] <othermaciej> Apple is a screen reader vendor
272. # [3:26] <Lachy_> I have no idea who to send it to. I thought perhaps you could send one on behalf of the w3c?
273. # [3:26] <Lachy_> othermaciej: I didn't know that
274. # [3:26] <Hixie> you need a mac :-)
275. # [3:26] <Lachy_> I have a mac at home
276. # [3:26] <Hixie> oh
277. # [3:26] <Hixie> well then
278. # [3:26] <Hixie> you own the screen reader in question
279. # [3:26] <Hixie> it's reasonably good
280. # [3:26] <Lachy_> how do I operate it?
281. # [3:26] <Hixie> doesn't support aural CSS though
282. # [3:27] <othermaciej> Lachy_: you can turn it on via the Control Panel I think
283. # [3:27] <othermaciej> it's called VoiceOver
284. # [3:27] <Hixie> spotlight for "Screen reader"
285. # [3:27] <Lachy_> ok, I'll look for it tonight
286. # [3:27] <karlUshi> Lachy: http://www.apple.com/accessibility/voiceover/
287. # [3:27] <othermaciej> most go out to dinner
288. # [3:27] <Hixie> or press command-f5
289. # [3:29] <Lachy_> it's lunch time, cya
290. # [3:29] * othermaciej_ (i=mjs@nat/apple/x-13fa27c4ed786c41) has joined #whatwg
291. # [3:32] <zcorpan_> "The <object> element was originally introduced by Microsoft in Internet Explorer 3 for the inclusion of Microsoft Component Object Model or COM objects (such as ActiveX Controls and a wide variety of different media types and plug-ins). Internet Explorer introduced this tag with support for ActiveX controls, and Microsoft has continued to develop around it." -- http://www.devasp.com/samplechapters/html401/chapter10.asp
292. # [3:32] <zcorpan_> that's not where i read it before, but it says basically the same thing
293. # [3:32] <Hixie> man a lot of people on the video thread don't seem to understand the concept of not going to extremes
294. # [3:33] <hendry> herding cats :)
295. # [3:34] <Dashiva> I wonder if the ones suggesting browsers "fix" <object> handling even thought about backwards compatability
296. # [3:36] <zcorpan_> just doing what html4 says doesn't work, as it's not compatible with ie or the web aiui, and it's underspecified
297. # [3:37] <Hixie> what about html5 though?
298. # [3:38] <zcorpan_> i haven't looked at <object> in html5 closely
299. # [3:40] <zcorpan_> btw, since <video> basically has the same fallback as <object>, it should probably be part of the "figure fallback object" concept for what a <figure> represents in different fallback situations
300. # [3:41] <zcorpan_> consider <figure><video><object><video><p>foo, or vice versa
301. # [3:43] <zcorpan_> or, perhaps that's just for the content model of <object>
302. # [3:45] <zcorpan_> but it applies anyway
303. # [3:45] * othermaciej (i=mjs@nat/apple/x-f9f4f9f128aaffb0) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
304. # [3:46] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-180-242.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
305. # [3:46] <zcorpan_> or not. <video> is transparent
306. # [3:47] <zcorpan_> nm the above :)
307. # [3:50] <karlUshi> http://esw.w3.org/topic/ObjectTestResults
308. # [3:50] <karlUshi> I have updated the table.
309. # [3:50] <karlUshi> Many Thanks Dashiva!!!
310. # [3:51] * htmlr (n=cjb@CPE-138-130-176-60.nsw.bigpond.net.au) has joined #whatwg
311. # [3:53] <Dashiva> karlUshi: Looking at the report mails, the result in test 7 is the same in IE6 and IE7. Just tester disagreement whether it was Fail or Bug
312. # [3:54] * BenWard (n=BenWard@cpc3-cmbg2-0-0-cust58.cmbg.cable.ntl.com) Quit ()
313. # [3:55] <Dashiva> Probably the same for Opera 9.0 and 9.1 on test 5
314. # [3:55] <karlUshi> It's why I keep the mail reference.
315. # [3:55] <karlUshi> it is one of the issue with testing.
316. # [3:55] * hendry (n=hendry@91.84.53.136) Quit ("nn")
317. # [3:56] <karlUshi> There is the bias of the tester.
318. # [3:56] <Hixie> zcorpan_: i haven't really looked at fallback closely yet
319. # [3:58] <Lachy_> well, that was a potentially profitable lunch ;-) It pays to be in the right place at the right time!
320. # [3:58] <Hixie> you convinced microsoft to implement ogg theora in an IE7 update patch? :-)
321. # [3:59] <Lachy_> they're shooting a British Airways commercial down at circular quay, and if I get seen in the final cut, I get a $1000 :-D
322. # [3:59] <Hixie> hah
323. # [3:59] <Hixie> nice
324. # [4:00] <zcorpan_> wow
325. # [4:00] <zcorpan_> cool
326. # [4:12] * moeffju is now known as moeffju[ZzZz]
327. # [4:17] <Dashiva> Only 116 replies to questionnaire to go
328. # [4:19] * mpt (n=mpt@121-72-132-150.dsl.telstraclear.net) Quit ("Leaving")
329. # [4:26] * zcorpan_ updated http://simon.html5.org/articles/mobile-results
330. # [4:28] <Lachy_> zcorpan_: what did you change on that page?
331. # [4:32] <zcorpan_> Lachy: changes are annotated with <del> and <ins>
332. # [4:32] <zcorpan_> except in the table
333. # [4:32] <zcorpan_> added (False) and changed class name to "fail"
334. # [4:37] <zcorpan_> and summary="" updated to match
335. # [4:38] <Lachy_> you don't have Nokia WebKit browser results
336. # [4:38] <Lachy_> I test one for you
337. # [4:39] <zcorpan_> i've got results for it, after the article was published
338. # [4:39] <zcorpan_> filed a bug on it too
339. # [4:40] <zcorpan_> http://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9677
340. # [4:42] <Lachy_> how come it's not listed in the result table?
341. # [4:42] <zcorpan_> because i decided not to add more results to the table
342. # [4:43] <zcorpan_> perhaps i should
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344. # [4:48] * h3h (n=w3rd@cpe-70-95-237-98.san.res.rr.com) has joined #whatwg
345. # [4:55] <zcorpan_> added
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348. # [5:11] * weinig is now known as weinig_
349. # [5:11] * weinig_ is now known as weinig
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353. # [5:45] <zcorpan_> http://diveintomark.org/ has switched to html5
354. # [5:51] <othermaciej> wow, he's working at Google too
355. # [5:52] <sayrer> hmm, I find it hard to believe it won't affect the blogging, as he claims in the comments
356. # [5:52] <sayrer> most people vanish into the black hole
357. # [5:53] <othermaciej> I'm sure he has arrangements
358. # [6:02] <zcorpan_> nn
359. # [6:03] <Hixie> my own vanishing into a black hole has little to do with google and more to do with my much more active social life :)
360. # [6:04] * zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@84-216-42-163.sprayadsl.telenor.se) has left #whatwg
361. # [6:07] * htmlr_ (n=cjb@CPE-138-130-176-60.nsw.bigpond.net.au) has joined #whatwg
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364. # [6:33] <karlUshi> hmmm Apollo (Adobe) is using WebKit
365. # [6:34] <karlUshi> http://labs.adobe.com/wiki/index.php/Apollo:developerfaq#What_HTML_and_JavaScript_Engine_is_used_within_Apollo.3F
366. # [6:35] <othermaciej> so I've heard
367. # [6:35] <sayrer> huh, I guess that makes three JS engines shipping in Apollo
368. # [6:36] <Hixie> heh
369. # [6:36] <Hixie> what's the first?
370. # [6:36] <othermaciej> Tamarin, JavaScriptCore, SpiderMonkey
371. # [6:36] <sayrer> no, the flash player has two I thought
372. # [6:36] <othermaciej> I hope Adobe chooses to abide by the terms of the LGPL soon
373. # [6:36] <othermaciej> those are the three though
374. # [6:36] <othermaciej> Tamarin for Flash, SpiderMonkey for PDF, and JavaScriptCore for HTML
375. # [6:37] <Hixie> ood times
376. # [6:37] <Hixie> good times even
377. # [6:37] <sayrer> Flash has their old one too, I thought
378. # [6:37] <Hixie> apollo is so doomed
379. # [6:37] <sayrer> Tamarin is only AS3
380. # [6:37] <othermaciej> (if you are thinking "WTF?? PDF executing JavaScript?" then you are not alone
381. # [6:37] <othermaciej> well then they might have 4
382. # [6:37] <sayrer> they have been embedding spidermonkey for a long long time
383. # [6:38] <sayrer> acrobat has lots of forms features
384. # [6:38] <karlUshi> the new version of PDF is Mars
385. # [6:38] <karlUshi> http://labs.adobe.com/wiki/index.php/Mars:FAQ
386. # [6:39] * bzed (n=bzed@dslb-084-059-106-088.pools.arcor-ip.net) Quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
387. # [6:39] <othermaciej> Apollo is their answer to the question of whether they want to replace the web with Flash, replace it with PDF, or embrace the web
388. # [6:39] <othermaciej> apparently the answer is "all three!"
389. # [6:39] <Hixie> hah
390. # [6:39] <karlUshi> Mars includes some parts of SVG
391. # [6:39] <sayrer> well, not such a dumb answer, looking at the Web
392. # [6:39] <Hixie> the problem with appolo, and the reason it's doomed, is that they're going to charge for development
393. # [6:40] <othermaciej> wait, is Mars SVG or not?
394. # [6:40] <othermaciej> I can't tell from that FAQ
395. # [6:40] <sayrer> Hixie: that seems kinda dumb
396. # [6:40] <Hixie> it's their business model
397. # [6:40] <karlUshi> http://labs.adobe.com/wiki/index.php/Mars:FAQ#How_are_high-end_print_features_supported_in_SVG.3F
398. # [6:40] <Hixie> fine by me though
399. # [6:40] <sayrer> though it worked for Flash
400. # [6:40] <othermaciej> anyway I would like them to stop violating the LGPL, I hope the polite requests will be sufficient to work
401. # [6:40] <karlUshi> "Where SVG does not have sufficient function to support capabilities in PDF, private namespace extensions have been added. Over time, it is hoped that these features will be incorporated into the SVG standard."
402. # [6:41] <sayrer> othermaciej: has khtml always been lgpl?
403. # [6:41] <othermaciej> sayrer: yes
404. # [6:41] <Hixie> sayrer: not really. flash is only widely used where there is no alternative.
405. # [6:42] <karlUshi> they also seem to have another forms format
406. # [6:42] <karlUshi> http://labs.adobe.com/wiki/index.php/Mars:FAQ#What_is_the_transition_or_compatibility_between_a_mars_pdf_and_an_xfa_pdf.3F
407. # [6:42] <karlUshi> "XFA (dynamic) forms provide advanced capabilities around forms and processing XML forms data. As XFA is part of PDF, it is a corresponding part of Mars. Much like Mars does for other PDF features, Mars make access to XFA components of a PDF easier."
408. # [6:42] <sayrer> Hixie: I surf daily on AMD64 linux. flash is the only problem for me. so it seems to meet the bar for ubiquity if people like me are left out in the cold.
409. # [6:43] <karlUshi> http://partners.adobe.com/public/developer/xml/index_arch.html
410. # [6:43] <Hixie> sayrer: i'm not saying flash is not used, i'm saying it's not used much when html would do the job instead.
411. # [6:43] <karlUshi> Adobe XML Forms Architecture (XFA)
412. # [6:43] <Hixie> sayrer: you don't see wikis in flash e.g.
413. # [6:43] <sayrer> Hixie: I think that is incorrect
414. # [6:43] <Hixie> really?
415. # [6:43] <Hixie> examples?
416. # [6:44] <othermaciej> hey, we should drop both XForms Transitional and Web Forms 2 in favor of XFA
417. # [6:44] <sayrer> real estate in NYC, the MIT hotel for my next business trip, boostmobile.com are yesterday's encounters
418. # [6:44] * karlUshi wonders what would give a features table of all forms languages side by side
419. # [6:45] <sayrer> http://www.hotelatmit.com/
420. # [6:45] <sayrer> http://boostmobile.com
421. # [6:45] <sayrer> I don't remember the broker sites
422. # [6:45] <karlUshi> http://labs.adobe.com/wiki/index.php/XForms_Converter
423. # [6:45] <sayrer> half of them don't work
424. # [6:46] <karlUshi> http://labs.adobe.com/wiki/index.php/XForms_Converter#Conversion_Details XForms <-> XFA
425. # [6:46] <sayrer> my conjecture is that "high value" sites are likely to require flash
426. # [6:46] <sayrer> just as they are likely to have a higher percentage of Safari, Opera, and Firefox users
427. # [6:48] <sayrer> my research on prepaid cellular plans shows that Boost is seen as "premium" compared to Tracfone and Virgin
428. # [6:48] <sayrer> neither of which featured flash
429. # [6:49] <karlUshi> at the bottom of this page, there are few others Forms markup languages
430. # [6:49] <Lachy_> Is Apollo Adobe's version of Widgets, like Apple Dasboard?
431. # [6:49] <karlUshi> http://xml.coverpages.org/xmlForms.html
432. # [6:49] <karlUshi> XHTML-FML, XFDL, XFA, EFS
433. # [6:51] <sayrer> Lachy_: I think it is Adobe's version of Visual Basic
434. # [6:52] <sayrer> whether it will succeed is an interesting question
435. # [6:52] <sayrer> some say people that would have been VB programmers are PHP guys now
436. # [6:53] <Lachy_> ok. Their description: "[a system] that allows developers to leverage their existing web development skills (Flash, Flex, HTML, JavaScript, Ajax) to build and deploy Rich Internet Applications (RIAs) to the desktop." makes it sound like a widget
437. # [6:53] <sayrer> so Apollo won't really work if that's the case
438. # [6:53] <Lachy_> http://labs.adobe.com/wiki/index.php/Apollo:DeveloperFAQ#What_is_Apollo.3F
439. # [6:53] * csarven (n=nevrasc@modemcable081.152-201-24.mc.videotron.ca) Quit ()
440. # [6:53] <sayrer> does anyone here know Flex?
441. # [6:54] <Lachy_> I hope it fails. Flash is a big enough problem already, without it being pushed even further
442. # [6:54] <sayrer> I don't see flash as a "problem"
443. # [6:55] <sayrer> it happens to work better in presentations than other things
444. # [6:55] <sayrer> that is how it ends up on the web
445. # [6:55] <Lachy_> from a usability point of view on the web, I hate flash
446. # [6:55] <sayrer> yep, presentationware vs. software
447. # [6:56] <sayrer> but there is nothing immoral about presentationware
448. # [6:57] <Lachy_> the immoral part of flash is that it's a proprietary technology
449. # [6:57] <sayrer> Lachy_: are you using linux right now?
450. # [6:58] <sayrer> none of those binary drivers or nonfree codecs, I hope
451. # [6:58] <Lachy_> sayrer: I don't mind proprietary technologies in general on the desktop, the problem with proprietary on the web is that it locks all users into a single vendor
452. # [6:59] <karlUshi> sayrer: plus the computer hardware which must be full of proprietary technos ;)
453. # [6:59] <sayrer> Lachy_: hmm, I don't buy it as a goal
454. # [6:59] <sayrer> choice and interop is the goal
455. # [6:59] <sayrer> and accessibility
456. # [6:59] <Lachy_> yeah, that's right.
457. # [7:00] <sayrer> I am the only person I know who can't run flash
458. # [7:00] <Lachy_> proprietary technologies take away choice and interop
459. # [7:00] <sayrer> so it is not the worst thing ever
460. # [7:00] <sayrer> oh, I don't agree with that
461. # [7:00] <sayrer> that is just a facile opposition of "proprietary" with "choice"
462. # [7:01] <karlUshi> interoperability = two persons not knowing each other can build applications that works together. compatibility = systems designed to work with another system.
463. # [7:01] <sayrer> they certainly don't hurt interop, in flash's case
464. # [7:01] <karlUshi> so interoperability can be achieved only if the technology is documented.
465. # [7:01] <sayrer> for instance, Flash on mac works well with flash on windows
466. # [7:01] <sayrer> you couldn't say that about MS Word
467. # [7:01] <Lachy_> but the client software is still from the same vendor
468. # [7:02] <sayrer> so
469. # [7:02] * bzed_ (n=bzed@dslb-084-059-113-122.pools.arcor-ip.net) Quit ("Leaving")
470. # [7:02] <sayrer> that might be interesting if you are a business competing with Adobe
471. # [7:02] <sayrer> otherwise, who really cares
472. # [7:02] <karlUshi> interoperability is not about choices, it is about technology documented.
473. # [7:03] * ravenn (n=ravenn@203-217-66-65.dyn.iinet.net.au) has left #whatwg
474. # [7:03] <sayrer> lots of documented technologies aren't interoperable
475. # [7:03] <karlUshi> You could have something under GPL and working on one platform only.
476. # [7:03] <Lachy_> yeah, I know that
477. # [7:03] <karlUshi> sayrer: exactly
478. # [7:03] <sayrer> karlUshi: then I am not sure what you mean
479. # [7:04] <sayrer> "interoperability is not about choices, it is about technology documented."
480. # [7:04] <karlUshi> ah yes I misread about you.
481. # [7:04] <karlUshi> oops
482. # [7:04] <karlUshi> I misread you
483. # [7:04] <karlUshi> hmmm need cafeine
484. # [7:04] <karlUshi> [14:03] <sayrer> lots of documented technologies aren't interoperable
485. # [7:05] <karlUshi> this is not because of the documentation, it is because of implementations
486. # [7:05] <sayrer> disagree
487. # [7:05] <karlUshi> :)
488. # [7:05] <sayrer> take any WS-* standard, w3c or elsewhere
489. # [7:05] <Hixie> html4 is a great example of why documentation isn't enough
490. # [7:05] <Hixie> you need DECENT documentation
491. # [7:05] <karlUshi> Hixie: yes.
492. # [7:05] <karlUshi> not talking about that
493. # [7:06] <karlUshi> interoperability = two persons not knowing each other can build applications that works together.
494. # [7:06] <karlUshi> compatibility = systems designed to work with another system.
495. # [7:06] <sayrer> huh, I would say the problems with HTML4 are happy problems
496. # [7:06] <sayrer> karlUshi: those definitions are not operational enough for me
497. # [7:06] <karlUshi> the key for me
498. # [7:07] <karlUshi> is not knowing each other
499. # [7:07] <sayrer> independently developed is important
500. # [7:07] <sayrer> the problem is you tense
501. # [7:07] <sayrer> your tense
502. # [7:07] <sayrer> "two persons not knowing each other can build applications that works together. "
503. # [7:07] <sayrer> I would say "two persons not knowing each other HAVE BUILT applications that works together. "
504. # [7:07] <karlUshi> Excuse my French
505. # [7:08] <sayrer> hehe
506. # [7:08] <karlUshi> understanding interoperability problems ;)
507. # [7:09] <sayrer> but if Flash works basically everywhere, that trumps a crappy standard that doesn't work everywhere, for me
508. # [7:09] <othermaciej> well, a single implementation can be a substitute for interoperability
509. # [7:10] <othermaciej> there are tradeoffs in cost obviously
510. # [7:10] <karlUshi> othermaciej: it is called ersatz ;)
511. # [7:11] <sayrer> you could say that we are sitting around having this conversation because MS got to 95% or so
512. # [7:12] <othermaciej> the single implementation I had in mind was Flash
513. # [7:13] <othermaciej> but yes, Microsoft could have been the single significant web browser implementation
514. # [7:13] <sayrer> well yes, I thought I would provide an interesting twist ;)
515. # [7:14] <sayrer> Flash and MSIE are just two examples of competition for interoperable, documented standards
516. # [7:15] <Hixie> the problem with flash is that in 100 years, when adobe no longer exists, and flash certainly no longer exists, we'll not be able to do anything with .swf files
517. # [7:15] <Hixie> whereas we _will_ be able to play html files
518. # [7:15] <sayrer> I am not bold enough to make 100 yr predictions
519. # [7:16] <karlUshi> hmmm if humankind still exists in 100 years too
520. # [7:16] <sayrer> my point was merely that the competition is stiff
521. # [7:16] <Hixie> (the reason i started whatwg was to make sure that in 100, 200, 1000 years, archeologists don't need to reverse engineer html files to work out what they should do)
522. # [7:17] <Hixie> (that's why i believe error handling documentation is critical)
523. # [7:17] <sayrer> so suggestions for process and stanadardization that don't account for that are not to be welcomed. it doesn't really have anything to do with morals.
524. # [7:18] <sayrer> I am more selfish than Hixie, I guess. I just don't want to waste time.
525. # [7:21] <othermaciej> sayrer: "single implementation" != "interoperable, documented standard" (or did you mean "competition for" in the sense of they aren't in that category)
526. # [7:22] <sayrer> othermaciej: I meant it in the sense of your parenthetical question
527. # [7:22] <sayrer> stupid standards and bad process are worse than bad proprietary technology
528. # [7:22] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) has joined #whatwg
529. # [7:24] <othermaciej> I'm more interested in what is good than what sucks more out of bad alternatives
530. # [7:25] <sayrer> I am interested in making sure there is something good
531. # [7:25] <karlUshi> "If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchange apples then you and I will still each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange these ideas, then each of us will have two ideas. " -George Bernard Shaw
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533. # [7:46] * othermaciej (i=mjs@nat/apple/x-b5f32c42b2ac67e6) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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535. # [8:03] * Lachy_ (n=chatzill@58.105.240.232) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.77 [Firefox 2.0.0.2/2007021917]")
536. # [8:05] * Lachy_ (n=chatzill@58.105.240.232) has joined #whatwg
537. # [8:07] <Lachy_> now this is so ridiculous, it's funny http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2007JanMar/0052.html :-)
538. # [8:08] <Lachy_> I think it translates to something like "are all the problems in my life caused by XHTML?"
539. # [8:08] <Hemebond> LOL
540. # [8:10] <Hixie> oh my, that's a sad e-mail.
541. # [8:10] <Hixie> maybe i've been pushing the whole "xhtml is evil" thing a little too hard
542. # [8:11] <Hemebond> Aha! So it was yoooooooouuuuu
543. # [8:11] <Hemebond> Why is XHTML evil?
544. # [8:11] <Hixie> didn't you read? it destroys hard drives
545. # [8:12] <Lachy_> and commits credit card fraud
546. # [8:12] <Hixie> indeed
547. # [8:15] <Hemebond> Hixie... why are you telling everyone XHTML is evil?
548. # [8:15] * Lachy__ (n=chatzill@58.105.240.232) has joined #whatwg
549. # [8:16] <Hemebond> Hmm. Something has happening to my RSS subscription to hixie.ch
550. # [8:16] <Hixie> i was joking :-)
551. # [8:16] <Hixie> (xhtml itself is not evil, it's boring. sending xhtml as text/html is bad, which is the point i famously make)
552. # [8:17] <Lachy__> my connection dropped out after my last message. What did I miss?
553. # [8:17] <Hemebond> That's what I thought.
554. # [8:17] <Lachy__> ah, never mind, whatbot's active
555. # [8:24] <Lachy__> http://lachy.id.au/log/2007/03/problems-with-xhtml
556. # [8:25] <Hemebond> Lies!
557. # [8:25] <Hemebond> I'm gonna use my XHTML bot to DOS your web server.
558. # [8:25] <Lachy__> ha
559. # [8:26] <Lachy__> it's time to go, cya later
560. # [8:27] * Lachy__ (n=chatzill@58.105.240.232) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.77 [Firefox 2.0.0.2/2007021917]")
561. # [8:31] * htmlr_ (n=cjb@CPE-138-130-176-60.nsw.bigpond.net.au) Quit ()
562. # [8:32] * htmlr (n=cjb@138.130.176.60) has joined #whatwg
563. # [8:35] * Lachy_ (n=chatzill@58.105.240.232) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
564. # [8:38] <karlUshi> Lachy: we receive a lot of these messages. Usually people see the DOCTYPE address in the document source, then it means that if their computer has troubles it is because of W3C.
565. # [8:38] <karlUshi> It is interesting in terms of social behaviour.
566. # [8:46] <Hemebond> http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1172653243&count=1 Hmmmmm
567. # [8:46] <Hemebond> Is there anything to use yet, regarding HTML5?
568. # [8:46] <Hemebond> I'm guessing no.
569. # [8:47] <Hemebond> I could RTFM but...
570. # [8:51] <Hemebond> My Tallest?
571. # [8:51] <Hemebond> Hey, my Tallest!
572. # [8:51] <Hixie> to use?
573. # [8:51] <Hemebond> Nothing has been released yet, is that right?
574. # [8:51] <Hixie> <canvas> is widely implemented
575. # [8:51] <Hixie> web forms 2 is in opera 9
576. # [8:52] <Hixie> drag and drop is in IE and safari
577. # [8:52] <Hixie> autocomplete is in most browsers
578. # [8:52] <Hemebond> And here I sit using Firefox...
579. # [8:52] <Hixie> storage apis are in firefox
580. # [8:52] <Hixie> online/offline apis are in firefox
581. # [8:52] <Hemebond> Oh yeah, heard about that.
582. # [8:52] <Hixie> event-source is in opera9
583. # [8:52] <Hemebond> They're in the next version, arent' they?
584. # [8:53] <Hixie> storage and online/offline are in ff2 i thkn
585. # [8:53] <Hixie> think
586. # [8:53] <Hixie> contenteditable is in IE and other browsers
587. # [8:53] <Hixie> text selection apis are in firefox and other browsers
588. # [8:53] <Hixie> cross-document messaging are in opera
589. # [8:53] <Hemebond> Hmm. I'm very out of touch.
590. # [8:54] <Hixie> sound might be in opera (has that shipped yet?)
591. # [8:54] <Hemebond> Which is strange because I read a lot every night.
592. # [8:54] <Hemebond> I guess I should have been following WHATWG
593. # [8:55] <Hemebond> "The work is currently split between three specifications."
594. # [8:55] <karlUshi> Hixie ;) there is an over characterization on the example you gave in your weblog entry
595. # [8:55] <Hemebond> And there are 2 listed...
596. # [8:55] <karlUshi> <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
597. # [8:55] <karlUshi> <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.1//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/DTD/xhtml11.dtd">
598. # [8:55] <karlUshi> <html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"
599. # [8:55] <karlUshi> xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance"
600. # [8:55] <karlUshi> xsi:schemaLocation="http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/SCHEMA/xhtml11.xsd">
601. # [8:55] <Hixie> Hemebond: the web control spec isn't started yet
602. # [8:55] <Hemebond> I see.
603. # [8:56] <karlUshi> luckily enough you specified that the bold (that people will not read)
604. # [8:56] <karlUshi> is optional :)
605. # [8:56] <karlUshi> is not optional
606. # [8:57] <karlUshi> <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.1//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/DTD/xhtml11.dtd">
607. # [8:57] <karlUshi> <html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">
608. # [8:57] <karlUshi> marketing :)
609. # [8:58] <Hixie> karlUshi: i copied that header straight out of the only example in the spec, so if there's any "marketing" going on, i recommend talking to steven about it.
610. # [8:58] <karlUshi> unrelated. :)
611. # [8:58] <Hixie> not really
612. # [8:58] <Hixie> people write by copy and paste
613. # [8:59] <karlUshi> s/people/geeks/
614. # [8:59] <karlUshi> over characterization again :)
615. # [8:59] <Hixie> my research suggested that it's people in general, but i have no interest in discussing this without actual data
616. # [9:00] <Hixie> and my data is at work
617. # [9:00] <karlUshi> agreed
618. # [9:06] * Charl (n=charlvn@196.209.165.159) has joined #whatwg
619. # [9:14] * htmlr (n=cjb@138.130.176.60) Quit ()
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621. # [9:25] * icaaq_ is now known as icaaq
622. # [9:27] * karlUshi (n=karl@133.27.246.23) Quit ("Where dwelt Ymir, or wherein did he find sustenance?")
623. # [9:35] * Hixie mumbles something about maybe a lot of the people commenting on this <video> spec didn't read the spec
624. # [9:38] <Hemebond> Down with <video>!
625. # [9:38] <Hixie> you don't like it?
626. # [9:39] <Hemebond> Dunno. Haven't read the spec. ;)
627. # [9:39] <Hemebond> I was talking to Anne last night about it actually.
628. # [9:39] <Hixie> heh
629. # [9:44] <Hemebond> oh. um. I not too keen on it.
630. # [9:45] <Hemebond> But I'll probably change my mind.
631. # [9:45] <Hemebond> Eventually.
632. # [9:54] * yod (n=ot@softbank221018155222.bbtec.net) Quit ("Leaving")
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637. # [10:50] * BenWard (n=BenWard@cpc3-cmbg2-0-0-cust58.cmbg.cable.ntl.com) has joined #whatwg
638. # [10:53] * MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@133.61.111.219.dy.bbexcite.jp) has joined #whatwg
639. # [10:55] <krijnh> [0:41] <zcorpan_> i know some who are subscribed but i haven't seen any mails from them to the list
640. # [10:55] <krijnh> Perhaps the lurkers are because of:
641. # [10:55] <krijnh> [23:15] <Hixie> gotta love some of the mails to whatwg
642. # [10:55] <krijnh> [23:15] <Hixie> "i'm not an expert in any of the relevant topics, but here's my opinion anyway"
643. # [10:56] <Hixie> yeah, that's the reason i lurk on a lot the lists i lurk on -- i just don't know enough about hte topic to contribute, but it's still interesting to listen
644. # [10:56] <krijnh> Probably half of the "Invited Experts" don't qualify themselves as expert and don't dare to give their opinion because of that
645. # [10:56] <krijnh> Exactly
646. # [10:58] <krijnh> When is one an expert btw?
647. # [10:58] <Hixie> when one has experience, usually
648. # [10:59] <krijnh> Hmm
649. # [11:00] <krijnh> "An expert is someone widely recognized as a reliable source of knowledge, technique, or skill whose judgment is accorded authority and status by the public or their peers"
650. # [11:00] <krijnh> Note to self; buy some nice peers
651. # [11:01] * karlUshi (n=karl@124-144-94-185.rev.home.ne.jp) has joined #whatwg
652. # [11:13] * moeffju[ZzZz] is now known as moeffju
653. # [11:18] <Hixie> hm
654. # [11:18] <Hixie> video.length or video.duration?
655. # [11:18] <krijnh> duration
656. # [11:19] * ROBOd (n=robod@86.34.246.154) has joined #whatwg
657. # [11:19] <Hixie> ok
658. # [11:19] <Hixie> change
659. # [11:19] <Hixie> d
660. # [11:19] <krijnh> .length is confusing with array.length
661. # [11:19] <krijnh> Or isn't it?
662. # [11:20] <Hixie> yes. i just confused myself when fixing the spec. :-)
663. # [11:20] <krijnh> And String.length
664. # [11:21] <krijnh> unsigned long
665. # [11:23] <krijnh> TimeRanges.length is also confusing otherwise
666. # [11:24] <Hixie> that's the one that confused me
667. # [11:24] <krijnh> :)
668. # [11:24] <krijnh> Gee, I think like an expert ;]
669. # [11:26] * Hixie just replied to 123 e-mails in one go
670. # [11:26] <krijnh> <video id="foo"><img></video> <dialog for="foo">..</dialog>
671. # [11:27] <krijnh> Okay, that's pretty useless probably :)
672. # [11:27] <Hixie> ok now i shall work on going to sleep
673. # [11:27] <Hixie> maybe after watching bsg
674. # [11:28] <krijnh> Hixie: on public-html ?
675. # [11:28] <Hixie> no, whatwg list
676. # [11:28] <Hixie> htmlwg isn't discussing <video> as far as i know
677. # [11:29] <Hixie> except for some spillage from the whatwg list
678. # [11:29] <krijnh> Yeah, public-html isn't too interesting yet
679. # [11:30] <Hixie> not clear what public-html will do
680. # [11:30] <Hixie> we're just waiting on cwilso for now i guess
681. # [11:35] <krijnh> "that overloading elements leads to implementation difficulties"
682. # [11:35] <krijnh> It doesn't for <input type="foo">
683. # [11:35] * marcosc reads hixies book-length email on <video>.... great summary, btw :)
684. # [11:37] <Hixie> <input type=foo> is a disaster zone almost as bad as <object>
685. # [11:37] <Hixie> it's had longer to get fixed, so it's better now
686. # [11:37] <Hixie> but it used to be terrible
687. # [11:37] <krijnh> I mean for web forms 2
688. # [11:38] <krijnh> There the type attribute is extended
689. # [11:38] <Hixie> web forms 2 was basically forced into using <input> for back compat with form submission in egacy uas
690. # [11:38] <Hixie> you'll note we used new elements wherever possible
691. # [11:38] <Hixie> legacy uas
692. # [11:39] <Hixie> (one of the big problems with <input> is dynamic changes to the "type" attribute)
693. # [11:41] * Charl (n=charlvn@196.209.165.159) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
694. # [11:44] * icaaq (i=icaaaq@c-f535e455.231-7-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) has left #whatwg
695. # [11:44] <Hemebond> So Web Forms 2 doesn't support dynamic element changes?
696. # [11:46] <krijnh> Opera does
697. # [11:51] <othermaciej> <input> generally sucks, the only semi-advantage is that if you invent a new type, users in older UAs just get a text field they can type in
698. # [11:51] <othermaciej> but otherwise, you have all sorts of different behaviors and semantics overloaded onto one element
699. # [11:52] <krijnh> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/stuff/html5/input-changing-attributes/
700. # [11:54] * Charl (n=charlvn@196.209.167.214) has joined #whatwg
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703. # [12:45] * othermaciej is now known as om_sleep
704. # [13:00] * zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@84-216-43-148.sprayadsl.telenor.se) has joined #whatwg
705. # [13:09] <zcorpan_> borders!
706. # [13:09] <zcorpan_> Charl: cheers
707. # [13:10] <Charl> zcorpan_: hi :)
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731. # [16:03] * webben (i=benh@nat/yahoo/x-311efa5bbe0846f4) has joined #whatwg
732. # [16:05] * met_ (n=Hassman@r5bx220.net.upc.cz) has joined #whatwg
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737. # [16:30] * csarven (n=nevrasc@modemcable081.152-201-24.mc.videotron.ca) has joined #whatwg
738. # [16:41] <Lachy> http://booskovski.blogspot.com/2006/11/richard-dawkins-some-great-clips.html - wow, 30 is a lot of videos embedded in one page!
739. # [17:10] <zcorpan_> i really dislike the various JS hacks to get around target=_blank not being valid :|
740. # [17:11] <krijnh> I prefer setAttribute('target', '_blank')
741. # [17:12] <krijnh> </sarcasm> btw
742. # [17:14] * weinig is now known as weinig|bbl
743. # [17:16] <zcorpan_> +1 on dropping togglePause() fwiw
744. # [17:17] <zcorpan_> it's safer to check the state than to presume what the state was
745. # [17:17] <zcorpan_> ...when doing the scripted ui, that is
746. # [17:33] * zcorpan_ is replying to fallback
747. # [17:37] * peepo (n=Jay@host86-129-175-144.range86-129.btcentralplus.com) has joined #whatwg
748. # [17:57] * hasather (n=hasather@81-235-209-174-no62.tbcn.telia.com) has left #whatwg
749. # [18:04] <zcorpan_> http://www.accessifyforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=7688 great news
750. # [18:05] <met_> I saw forum discussion from yesterday, on http://forum.czilla.cz/ we made for moderators who do not want waste time still checking the forum, patch which send mail everytime new topic (or any new post) came with topic text. So moderators can simply check mails and see immidiatelly when some spam, of off-topic come
751. # [18:17] * sayrer (n=chatzill@user-12ld2ss.cable.mindspring.com) has joined #whatwg
752. # [18:35] <zcorpan_> thinking about applying to a summer job at opera, perhaps i should start with a real test suite for html5 then
753. # [18:37] * Charl (n=charlvn@196.21.192.15) has joined #whatwg
754. # [18:40] * hasather (n=hasather@81-235-209-174-no62.tbcn.telia.com) has joined #whatwg
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757. # [18:49] <Dashiva> That Gareth Hay fellow confuses me. Is he really arguing two contradicting points at the same time?
758. # [18:54] * ROBOd (n=robod@86.34.246.154) Quit ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
759. # [18:59] * tylerr (n=tylerr@outbound.wa1.ascentium.com) has joined #whatwg
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761. # [19:05] * weinig|bbl is now known as weinig
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764. # [19:18] * sayrer_ is now known as sayrer
765. # [19:20] * peepo (n=Jay@host86-129-175-144.range86-129.btcentralplus.com) Quit ("later")
766. # [19:25] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) has joined #whatwg
767. # [19:32] <zcorpan_> Lachy: LOL
768. # [19:39] * hsivonen is catching up with the public-html archive
769. # [19:39] <hsivonen> I wonder if I should wait for Chris Wilson to join before metooing to Howcome's proposal...
770. # [19:40] * zcorpan_ would
771. # [19:41] <hsivonen> yeah
772. # [19:44] <zcorpan_> why isn't there a "translate this page" plugin/extension for any browser that does the translation client-side?
773. # [19:44] * hober is sad that public-html isn't available via gmane (yet)
774. # [19:44] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: I can think of two reasons:
775. # [19:45] <hsivonen> 1) It doesn't work with the business model of Systran and the willingness of individual users to pay.
776. # [19:45] <sayrer> google translate?
777. # [19:46] <hsivonen> 2) Google's competing methodology relies on massive data and processing power. And their secret sauce that they don't want to let other decompile.
778. # [19:46] <sayrer> looks like the Google Toolbar does it
779. # [19:46] <sayrer> but that wouldn't work clientside
780. # [19:47] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: btw, do you have the google translate bookmarklet again?
781. # [19:47] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/translate.html
782. # [19:47] <zcorpan_> thanks
783. # [19:49] <tylerr> Hello all. Just put in my information to be accepted to the working group over at W3C.
784. # [19:49] <tylerr> Thought I'd jump in here and say hello.
785. # [19:55] <zcorpan_> tylerr: hi
786. # [19:56] <hsivonen> hi
787. # [19:57] <tylerr> Howdy
788. # [19:57] <tylerr> I figure this is something I would like to be a part of since I'm spearheading standards and accessibility evangelism at my company.
789. # [19:57] <Dashiva> Chris seemed like such a nice guy, and then it turns out he's a top-poster :(
790. # [19:57] <zcorpan_> lol
791. # [19:58] <zcorpan_> tylerr: which company?
792. # [19:59] <tylerr> Ascentium Corporation. We have a presence in a large majority of Microsoft's internal and external pages and portals.
793. # [19:59] <tylerr> So the opportunity to promote standards-based design and development is rather large.
794. # [20:01] <hsivonen> cool
795. # [20:02] <tylerr> It's going to be a challenge but the rewards will outweigh any rockblocks along the way.
796. # [20:02] <tylerr> What about yourselves?
797. # [20:03] <zcorpan_> http://forums.whatwg.org/viewtopic.php?t=7#32
798. # [20:04] <tylerr> Ah well that would answer that! Perhaps I'll go and introduce myself over there. ;)
799. # [20:04] <zcorpan_> go ahead :)
800. # [20:06] <Dashiva> IRC name or real name as forum name... decisions, decisions...
801. # [20:18] <tylerr> I've given up trying to identify myself with an avatar-like identity. I'm a very indecisive individual so after a week of using a name, I'm likely to hate it. :)
802. # [20:20] <hsivonen> tylerr: I'm the conformance checking guy
803. # [20:20] * ROBOd (n=robod@86.34.246.154) has joined #whatwg
804. # [20:21] <tylerr> Ah! So I'd come to you for all indecisiveness-related issues? ;)
805. # [20:21] <hsivonen> tylerr: I don't decide what's conforming.
806. # [20:22] <tylerr> Ah right right.
807. # [20:22] <kingryan> tylerr: I agree, all of my online identities are now variations on my real name. avatars are annoying.
808. # [20:23] <tylerr> kingryan: It's so much easier to remember your username. ;)
809. # [20:26] * om_sleep is now known as othermaciej
810. # [20:27] <Dashiva> tylerr: When you've been using the same one for 10 years, it's sometimes more recognizable than your real name would be :)
811. # [20:29] <tylerr> This is very true. **grins** I've only been using the internet personally for about 6 years, and my interest in web technologies hadn't sprung up until about 3 years ago. Now my online identity is spewed all over random technology and Apple sites. **laughs**
812. # [20:32] <tylerr> And apparently Google likes to show information about me that has been deleted for a while still.
813. # [20:37] <Dashiva> Mailing list archives provide an interesting peek into the past
814. # [20:41] * weinig is now known as weinig|bbl
815. # [20:47] <othermaciej> wow, Chris Wilson's remarks on public-html were pretty intemperate
816. # [20:52] <Dashiva> Did you see the blog exchange between Chris and Daniel?
817. # [20:52] <met_> blog was ok
818. # [20:52] <othermaciej> yes
819. # [20:53] <tylerr> I read that, that was pretty *interesting*.
820. # [20:55] * Charl (n=charlvn@196.21.192.15) Quit ()
821. # [21:03] * icaaq (n=icaaaq@c-f535e455.231-7-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) has joined #whatwg
822. # [21:03] <Dashiva> http://forums.whatwg.org/viewtopic.php?t=12
823. # [21:03] <Dashiva> That one puzzles me.
824. # [21:05] * Hixie sees the thread in public-html and decides to stay the hell out of it
825. # [21:07] <hsivonen> it seems that a number of people are confused about how patent law works (for some definition of "works") and what the W3C Patent Policy can and cannot protect against
826. # [21:08] <Hixie> there's a patent thread?
827. # [21:08] <hsivonen> Hixie: I'm reading archives from the 14th
828. # [21:08] <hsivonen> Re: Preparing to launch the Forms Task Force ...
829. # [21:09] * bewest (n=ben@httpcraft/bewest) has joined #whatwg
830. # [21:09] <sayrer> the last thing you want is a bunch of armchair lawyering
831. # [21:10] <hsivonen> sayrer: more to the point, the last thing you want is *bad* armchair lawyering. othermaciej's armchair lawyering with dbaron's amendments was fine
832. # [21:10] <Hixie> hsivonen: ah
833. # [21:10] <sayrer> hsivonen: I disagree
834. # [21:11] <sayrer> though I do agree some armchair lawyering can be especially bad
835. # [21:11] <icaaq> hsivonen: Hi, I sent an emil to you about printing the spec, did you get it?
836. # [21:11] <hsivonen> icaaq: I did. still catching up with last week's email.
837. # [21:11] <Dashiva> Hixie: I gather from comments earlier that the html5 spec is at least partially generated. Would it be much work to also generate a version split into sections on different pages?
838. # [21:12] <hsivonen> icaaq: I am wondering though why you sent it to me considering that I haven't blogged about printing the WHATWG specs yet (although I intend to)
839. # [21:12] <icaaq> hsivonen: someone here told me to.
840. # [21:12] <Hixie> Dashiva: it would be some work, maybe not a huge amount. i will end up doing it in due course if no-one else does.
841. # [21:13] <hsivonen> icaaq: ah. ok.
842. # [21:14] <hsivonen> sayrer: the problem is that it is really, really hard to get a real lawyer say something definitive on a mailing list. and someone needed to say that bogus reasons for avoiding the existing WHATWG prose are bogus
843. # [21:15] <sayrer> oh, it's better to focus the discussion on technical matters
844. # [21:15] <Hixie> the XMLHttpRequest spec is cute, it reads like one of my specs
845. # [21:16] <sayrer> oh my, cwilson is off to an excellent start as chair
846. # [21:16] <sayrer> :/
847. # [21:18] <Dashiva> Hixie: Is that a compliment, or? :)
848. # [21:34] <Hixie> dunno :-)
849. # [21:34] <Hixie> depends if you like my style or not
850. # [21:43] <hsivonen> looks like in general the new people on public-html haven't internalized the backwards compat mindset yet :-(
851. # [21:44] <Hixie> they haven't internalised the polite community aspect yet either it seems
852. # [21:44] <othermaciej> I am sure they are educable
853. # [21:46] <Hixie> i love how when i send out one of my gigantic e-mail replies to threads on whatwg, everyone dutifully forgets the earlier threads and replies to my mail instead
854. # [21:46] <Hixie> makes my life so much easier
855. # [21:47] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I was reluctant to do any armchair lawyering, but I didn't think any real lawyers would speak up
856. # [21:47] <Dashiva> Heh
857. # [21:48] <othermaciej> sayrer: it seemed like poor form to lose his cool like that
858. # [21:49] <Hixie> http://ifacethoughts.net/2007/03/20/help-with-html-5/ is funny
859. # [21:50] <hasather> Hixie: hehe
860. # [21:50] <gsnedders> Hixie: I'm not sure I really like it in a spec, but it's good for a laugh (as it's expected to be more formal)
861. # [21:50] <Dashiva> Hixie: I feel it sort of clears the table when you send one out. There's a "If I like this, I can just stop talking, if I don't like it I have this specific point to argue against"
862. # [21:51] <Dashiva> Instead of all the what-ifs and uncollapsed wavefunctions floating around normally
863. # [21:51] <Hixie> gsnedders: oh i didn't mean the humour, i meant the general way it phrases things, the way the idl is presented, etc.
864. # [21:51] <Hixie> Dashiva: hah, yeah :-) that kinda is what i was going for :-)
865. # [21:52] <gsnedders> Hixie: surely the humour is part of the general way it is presented, and therefore how things are phrased?
866. # [21:52] <gsnedders> :D
867. # [21:52] <gsnedders> (wrong window)
868. # [21:56] <Hixie> oh well the tone might be
869. # [21:56] <Hixie> there's some text in the web apps spec that is purely intended to be funny though
870. # [21:56] <Hixie> and that really doesn't belong in a formal spec except for making the spec easier and more fun to read
871. # [21:56] <Hixie> (in fact there's all kinds of easter eggs in there, especially in the examples)
872. # [21:56] <gsnedders> if you must appease the markup gods…
873. # [21:57] <Hixie> that's one example :-)
874. # [21:57] <sayrer> heh
875. # [21:57] <gsnedders> I came across that a few minutes ago
876. # [21:57] <othermaciej> I am all in favor of amusing examples
877. # [21:57] <gsnedders> "Then, if the element is one of the void elements, then there may be a single U+002F SOLIDUS (/) character. This character has no effect except to appease the markup gods. As this character is therefore just a symbol of faith, atheists should omit it."
878. # [21:57] <gsnedders> that's the full text
879. # [21:57] <othermaciej> otherwise one's eyes glaze over
880. # [21:58] <Hixie> gsnedders: there are lots of others :-)
881. # [21:58] <Dashiva> html5lib has an atheistParseError function
882. # [21:58] <Hixie> othermaciej: yeah, that was my thought too
883. # [21:58] <gsnedders> Hixie: I've seen plenty :)
884. # [21:58] <Hixie> the css spec has some too
885. # [21:58] <Hixie> 2.1 spec and selectors spec
886. # [21:58] <gsnedders> Dashiva: how's that actually raised?
887. # [21:58] <gsnedders> Tantek is the editor is those, right?
888. # [21:59] <Dashiva> gsnedders: The error text is "This error is not an error", for what it's worth
889. # [21:59] <Dashiva> Not error text, error comment
890. # [21:59] <gsnedders> shouldn't it really be, "You cannot find the error until you accept the truth – there is no error."
891. # [22:00] <Dashiva> And it is raised for the part you quoted earlier
892. # [22:01] <Hixie> gsnedders: i'm one of the editors, tantek is too
893. # [22:06] <met_> Hixie, the egg with gods lead to one whole article critisizing whole WHATWG effort (in czech, sorry), but based mainly on this sentence
894. # [22:07] * weinig|bbl is now known as weinig
895. # [22:07] <Dashiva> Are we godless heathens trying to destroy society?
896. # [22:07] <met_> shame many people folowed author opinion
897. # [22:07] <Hixie> met_: hah
898. # [22:07] <met_> here http://www.root.cz/clanky/akta-x-html-5-jako-alternativa-ke-xhtml/ but in czech
899. # [22:08] <Hixie> should we drop togglePause()?
900. # [22:08] <Hixie> met_: interesting, thanks
901. # [22:08] <met_> they cited http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2007/01/10/is-xml-20-under-development.html mistaken that there is some nex XML 2.0
902. # [22:09] <bewest> hjmm? we discussing <video>?
903. # [22:09] <bewest> what about the onend event?
904. # [22:09] <bewest> (or lack thereof)
905. # [22:09] <Hixie> i'm going through the latest feedback as we speak
906. # [22:09] <bewest> oh ok
907. # [22:09] * bewest quiets down
908. # [22:10] <Hixie> i sent mail about onend yesterday
909. # [22:10] <sayrer> Hixie: othermaciej's thoughts on togglePause() seem accurate to me
910. # [22:10] <zcorpan_> Hixie: i'd say yes (reasons are 5h ago in the irc logs)
911. # [22:11] <sayrer> it is not that useful since you have to know the state to draw the ui
912. # [22:11] <Hixie> sayrer: uri?
913. # [22:11] <Hixie> sayrer: or do you mean those i replied to yesterday
914. # [22:11] <sayrer> erm, in this channel yesterday or the day before
915. # [22:11] <sayrer> I don't have time to read the WHATWG list lately, sorry
916. # [22:11] <Hixie> heh ok
917. # [22:11] <Hixie> just read my mails ;-)
918. # [22:12] <hsivonen> too bad Google Translator does not support Czech.
919. # [22:15] <tylerr> Hi there Hixie. I read your blog a day or two ago and have signed up for the working group.
920. # [22:16] <Hixie> cool!
921. # [22:17] <tylerr> I figure I sit around at work complaining about standards and semantics all day, why not do something about it if my work doesn't care (yet)? **smiles**
922. # [22:17] <zcorpan_> met_: what does "Oba budou vždy existovat zároveň." mean?
923. # [22:19] <met_> zcorpan_, "Both will exists simultaneously for ever"
924. # [22:19] <met_> zcorpan_, and the question above was "Which language has better future."
925. # [22:20] <zcorpan_> ok
926. # [22:20] <met_> it was about 2 weeks before W3C puhlished HTML WG press release
927. # [22:20] <met_> than I wrote other article http://www.root.cz/clanky/html-vracime-se-ke-korenum/ from other point of view (still in Czech 8-)
928. # [22:20] <tylerr> When is the working group kicking off actual work and such?
929. # [22:21] * zcorpan_ votes for "Oba budou vždy existovat zároveň." :)
930. # [22:21] * met_ oks
931. # [22:22] <hsivonen> tylerr: probably after Chris Wilson joins. and if not then, probably after XTech. (just guessing)
932. # [22:22] <bewest> are they just waiting for chis wilson or others as well?
933. # [22:22] <tylerr> Ah okay then hsivonen. Thanks. Gives me time to work on establishing my new blog.
934. # [22:22] <Hixie> tylerr: the WHATWG has been working since about 2004, the W3C HTML WG will start in a few weeks
935. # [22:23] <Hixie> tylerr: and this is the WHATWG channel :-)
936. # [22:23] <othermaciej> bewest: at this point, it's mainly waiting for him, since he is co-chair, I don't think anyone would wait for MS just as a browser vendor at this point
937. # [22:23] <tylerr> Righto Hixie. Does the W3C WG have a channel as of yet?
938. # [22:23] <tylerr> I'd like to hop over to that one as well.
939. # [22:24] <Hixie> i don't think so, but you could e-mail the list and ask
940. # [22:24] <othermaciej> I don't think it does
941. # [22:24] <tylerr> Lovely, that I shall!
942. # [22:24] <bewest> othermaciej: yeah, that's what I thought
943. # [22:25] * icaaq_ (i=icaaaq@c-f535e455.231-7-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) has joined #whatwg
944. # [22:29] * icaaq (n=icaaaq@c-f535e455.231-7-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
945. # [22:31] * briansuda (n=briansud@dsl-219-147.hive.is) Quit ()
946. # [22:34] <Lachy> oh gosh, I'd have thought Chris Wilson would have had more sense than to top-post and use Outlook :-(
947. # [22:34] <Lachy> but then again, he is from MS
948. # [22:37] <Dashiva> I must inform you I have an essential claim on complaining about Chris Wilsom top-posting
949. # [22:37] * Dashiva points a few hours back in logs
950. # [22:38] <sayrer> lol
951. # [22:41] <zcorpan_> http://forums.whatwg.org/viewtopic.php?t=15
952. # [22:42] <zcorpan_> why is the story always "X is broken, let's replace it with something else!" instead of "X is broken, let's fix it!"?
953. # [22:42] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: because the implementation for something else won't have bugs
954. # [22:42] <zcorpan_> oh right
955. # [22:43] <zcorpan_> of course
956. # [22:45] * ROBOd (n=robod@86.34.246.154) Quit ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
957. # [22:47] <Hixie> _that's_ what confused the hell out of me
958. # [22:47] <Hixie> it's when people say "x is really badly implemented, so to fix this, we're going to invent a new thing y" and people seriously and truly assume that the implementation of y will be bug free
959. # [22:47] <Hixie> you can see that even in dave ragget's cforms transitional spec
960. # [22:47] <Hixie> xforms
961. # [22:50] <zcorpan_> we should listen to vlad's feedback on contenteditable and see how we can address his concerns
962. # [22:51] <zcorpan_> other than fixing browser bugs that is
963. # [22:52] <zcorpan_> if any, all i've seen so far only has to do with browser bugs and contenteditable being presentational in its nature
964. # [22:54] <zcorpan_> ideally, xstandard should be possible to implement using contenteditable
965. # [23:03] * hasather_ (n=hasather@81-235-209-174-no62.tbcn.telia.com) has joined #whatwg
966. # [23:03] <Hixie> yeah, if you can work out what we should change to make the spec better i'd love to fix contendeditable
967. # [23:09] * hasather (n=hasather@81-235-209-174-no62.tbcn.telia.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
968. # [23:09] <othermaciej> zcorpan_: depends on if things are broken by design or merely broken as implemented
969. # [23:09] <othermaciej> I think contentEditable suffers mainly from being implemented differently (and buggily) in every browser, and in not having any kind of formal spec
970. # [23:09] <othermaciej> but it does also have some level of design bogosity
971. # [23:10] * hasather_ is now known as hasather
972. # [23:12] <zcorpan_> i don't know much about contenteditable, we should probably invite people using it to see how it can be improved
973. # [23:12] <Hixie> contentEditable does have some level of formal spec in HTML5
974. # [23:14] <Hixie> zcorpan_: the status script is doing weird things :-) http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#designMode
975. # [23:14] <Hixie> or http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#command
976. # [23:15] <Hixie> looks like we'll need a UI to make the status file easy to edit now
977. # [23:15] <zcorpan_> Hixie: it's not the script that doing weird things, it's just the xml file that's pointing to <dfn>s as opposed to <hX>s
978. # [23:15] <Hixie> yeah
979. # [23:15] <zcorpan_> i haven't looked in to how to make the xml file editable yet
980. # [23:15] <bewest> the onautopaused trick might work for onended
981. # [23:16] <bewest> although I'm not sure you can have too many events
982. # [23:19] <Hixie> well if you want onended, then send a mail to the list describing the exact conditions under which you want it to fire
983. # [23:19] <Hixie> (e.g. should it fire if you pause then seek to the end then hit play?)
984. # [23:19] <Hixie> (how about if you seek to the end when it hasn't been buffered yet?)
985. # [23:19] <Hixie> (how about if you seek to the end but the last frame isn't buffered, and it autopauses, then it downloads the frame?)
986. # [23:28] * csarven (n=nevrasc@modemcable081.152-201-24.mc.videotron.ca) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
987. # [23:30] <zcorpan_> not having too many events is a good way to reduce interop problems, i think... :)
988. # [23:32] <Hixie> hinsofar as an event is a feature and having not too many features is a good way to reduce interop issues, yes :-)
989. # [23:35] <zcorpan_> ah, i thought without src="" <video> would fall back. hmm.
990. # [23:48] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-180-242.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
991. # [23:51] * webben (n=benjamin@91.84.131.217) has joined #whatwg
992. # [23:53] <zcorpan_> so <video> is more like <iframe> than <object> wrt fallback? it never falls back in uas that support <video> and has video enabled?
993. # [23:53] * tylerr looks around after taking a break to actually get some work done.
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The end :)