/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-04-05 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Apr 05 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] * Quits: hendry (n=hendry@91.84.53.136) ("bedtime")
  4. # [00:00] <KevinMarks> SMIL got broken by the second rev 2 - the first rev was pretty good
  5. # [00:03] <KevinMarks> hober, what the UFP does is try really hard to clean things up - the 2500+ tests define what it does pretty well
  6. # [00:03] <KevinMarks> back-porting them to a spec would be difficult
  7. # [00:05] <hober> agreed
  8. # [00:06] <KevinMarks> the feed validator is probably a better practical tool than a spec
  9. # [00:06] <othermaciej> validators are useful to producers only if consumers match its behavior
  10. # [00:06] <othermaciej> and for that you need a spec and a test suite to throw at consumers
  11. # [00:07] <KevinMarks> well, UFP provides the test suite
  12. # [00:08] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@121-72-128-156.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  13. # [00:09] <hober> What I was thinking was that the wa1 parsing algorithm is a reverse-engineer of what is more-or-less the existing interoperable error recovery for parsing html.
  14. # [00:10] <hober> there's less in terms of existing interoperable behavior in the feed parsing world, so I'd say reverse-engineering the UFP's behavior into a "liberal feed parsing algorithm" a-la wa1 is a possibility
  15. # [00:13] <Dashiva> Atom is a bit easier to implement than XHTML2, though (and orthogonal to rss, too)
  16. # [00:23] <Hixie> tantek: Hixie1 and Hixie are different accounts
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  18. # [00:30] <tantek> Hixie, but your twitter.com/Hixie appears to be subscribed to twitter.com/Hixie - Hixie1 had no friends/followers (until I added it moments ago)
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  20. # [00:31] <Hixie> i can't seem to remove Hixie from Hixie
  21. # [00:31] <Hixie> not sure how that happened or how to remove it
  22. # [00:31] <Hixie> it doesn't appear on my friends list
  23. # [00:35] <Hixie> do we have a page somewhere that explains in detail why version syntax isn't needed?
  24. # [00:35] <Hixie> hsivonen, Lachy_?
  25. # [00:39] <tantek> Hixie, shouldn't the burden of proof be the opposite?
  26. # [00:39] <tantek> nothing is needed unless it can be demonstrated that it is
  27. # [00:39] <zcorpan> http://dbaron.org/log/2007-03#e20070325a
  28. # [00:40] <Dashiva> tantek: The widespread use of versioning in other cases will probably be used for that
  29. # [00:42] <Hixie> tantek: people give all kinds of arguments in favour of version syntax
  30. # [00:42] <Hixie> tantek: they're all bogus imho, but it would be nice to be able to point to a page that explains why isn't of having to rehash hsivonen's e-mail each time
  31. # [00:42] <tantek> then you need debunking of those arguments, not a general attempt at a proof against
  32. # [00:42] <Hixie> right
  33. # [00:42] <tantek> perhaps in FAQ form
  34. # [00:43] <tantek> we need the same thing for namespaces in general
  35. # [00:43] <tantek> debunking thereof
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  38. # [00:59] <zcorpan> nn
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  40. # [01:06] <Hixie> so a lot of spammers have started using whatwg stuff to seed their spam blogs and referral spam campaigns
  41. # [01:06] <othermaciej> weird
  42. # [01:07] <Hixie> what's really funny however is that i work for google
  43. # [01:07] <Hixie> and i report them internally
  44. # [01:07] <Hixie> which (a) kills their page rank, not only on that site, but on all related ones, and (b) gets their spam blogs deleted from sites like blogger.
  45. # [01:08] <Hixie> i hope they continue
  46. # [01:08] <Hixie> makes our life hella easier
  47. # [01:11] <tantek> Hixie, indeed. It strikes me as odd when spammers copy content that references my name (a reasonably unique search term) into their spam blogs, not realizing that I'm likely to find and kill their spam blogs minutes after they post (since I work at Technorati).
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  49. # [01:15] <tylerr> Oh what a little research would do to the world of spammers.
  50. # [01:15] <tylerr> Rather, what a little research on spammers part would have on them not being so easily found out.
  51. # [01:17] <Dashiva> Rather, what a little research by average users would have done on making spam less profitable :)
  52. # [01:17] * tylerr chuckles.
  53. # [01:17] <tylerr> Too true.
  54. # [01:18] <tylerr> I'd use my surname as a URL but it would be hard for people to remember.
  55. # [01:18] <Hixie> there's a small number of people who actually like spam and use it
  56. # [01:18] <Hixie> and that's all it takes for it to be profitable
  57. # [01:19] <tylerr> I'm still hunting for a decent domain name.
  58. # [01:19] <tylerr> I suppose I'm too much of a perfectionist though and the quest will continue forever on.
  59. # [01:47] <Lachy> Hi
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  62. # [01:53] <Lachy> I'm finding spammers are actually getting creative and posting comments that are somewhat relevant to the post. If it wasn't for their sites clearly being commercial and not related to web dev, it'd be hard to tell
  63. # [01:53] <tantek> Hixie, FWIW, I am getting your twitters
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  65. # [02:02] <Hixie> tantek: yeah, i just don't get anyone else's.
  66. # [02:04] <Hixie> is there a way to see who has added you as a friend?
  67. # [02:04] <Hixie> the "27 Followers" line in my profile isn't a link
  68. # [02:07] <KevinMarks> http://twitter.com/Hixie/with_friends shows them
  69. # [02:08] <Hixie> ah thanks
  70. # [02:08] <KevinMarks> you sure you're logged in? the followers link is active for me whenI am
  71. # [02:08] <Hixie> definitely logged in
  72. # [02:08] <Hixie> and that page doesn't show a list of followers
  73. # [02:08] <Hixie> just the Friends
  74. # [02:08] <hober> fwiw, I see links for favorites & friends, but not followers
  75. # [02:10] <Hixie> oh hey
  76. # [02:10] <Hixie> i see a link to Followers when i go to the Favorites page
  77. # [02:10] <Hixie> man this site is so flaky
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  156. # [13:38] <zcorpan> on a page listing news, would one use one <article> to wrap all news and then an <article> for each news item, or would one use a <section> to wrap all news then an <article> for each news item?
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  162. # [14:03] <zcorpan_> http://simon.html5.org/temp/w3c-home-in-html5.html
  163. # [14:04] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: cool!
  164. # [14:05] <zcorpan_> styling doesn't work very well in firefox :(
  165. # [14:09] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: running it through your validator seems to reveal some bugs
  166. # [14:10] <hsivonen> The header element must have exactly one h1–h6 descendant.
  167. # [14:10] <hsivonen> yeah, that's a bug
  168. # [14:11] <hsivonen> I thought I had fixed it already
  169. # [14:11] <zcorpan_> also it complains about <nav><a> and <footer><address>
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  171. # [14:11] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: perhaps the content model of <nav> has changed
  172. # [14:11] * zcorpan_ looks
  173. # [14:12] <hsivonen> I guess I might as well do the header/footer refactoring over easter
  174. # [14:12] <hsivonen> that should fix the address bug
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  176. # [14:13] <zcorpan> Zero or more block-level elements, or inline-level content (but not both).
  177. # [14:13] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: I am rather convinced that it was block only when I worked on that part
  178. # [14:14] <zcorpan> ok
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  184. # [14:53] <annevk> zcorpan, nice
  185. # [15:07] <annevk> zcorpan, maybe make an XHTML5 one for the styling?
  186. # [15:08] <annevk> http://simon.html5.org/temp/valid-html5.png lol!
  187. # [15:12] <hsivonen> yeah, that was fun even though in general I don't like validity badges
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  190. # [15:21] <zcorpan> i don't like them either :)
  191. # [15:22] <zcorpan> annevk: i'd rather mozilla fixed their html parser
  192. # [15:23] <annevk> fair enough
  193. # [15:24] <hsivonen> Hixie: what's the deal with "one or more block-level elements" in the content model of <details>? usually you have zero or more
  194. # [15:25] <hsivonen> fantasai's framework assumes that you always have zero or more, so I have a schema-wide refactoring ahead if you really meant one or more
  195. # [15:25] * annevk wonders what the use of zero would be
  196. # [15:25] <annevk> in that case
  197. # [15:25] <hsivonen> annevk: making placeholders conforming
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  200. # [15:27] <hsivonen> although the refactoring would be good to schema aesthetics anyway
  201. # [15:29] * hsivonen realizes that zero block level elements counts as inline level empty string
  202. # [15:30] <zcorpan> there is a concept of inline level empty string?
  203. # [15:31] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I meant in terms of deriving the document tree from the grammar
  204. # [15:32] <zcorpan> ok
  205. # [15:32] <hsivonen> zcorpan: but the empty string counts as inline-level content
  206. # [15:32] <hsivonen> not a spec concept, though
  207. # [15:33] <Dashiva> So <p></p> contains a single empty string textnode, while <p><b></b></p> contains a single <b> element, which in turn contains a single empty string textnode?
  208. # [15:33] <hsivonen> Dashiva: they do not contain text nodes in the DOM sense
  209. # [15:34] <Dashiva> So document tree != the final DOM?
  210. # [15:34] <hsivonen> Dashiva: but as far as the spec's notion of inline content and the RELAX NG notion of text is concerned, yes
  211. # [15:34] <zcorpan> why does tbody take One or more tr elements, instead of 0 or more? http://www.whatwg.org/demos/repeat-01/ has an empty tbody if you click Remove
  212. # [15:35] <hsivonen> zcorpan: excellent question
  213. # [15:35] * zcorpan will bug the list
  214. # [15:37] <Dashiva> +1 ;)
  215. # [15:40] <zcorpan> should perhaps apply to <tr>s as direct children to table too
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  253. # [20:01] * epeus is now known as KevinMarks
  254. # [20:05] <KevinMarks> CSS Naked day is a good day fro a whatwg meet
  255. # [20:05] <KevinMarks> http://naked.dustindiaz.com/
  256. # [20:06] * moeffju is now known as moeffju[Away]
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  260. # [20:39] <annevk> http://www.markbaker.ca/blog/2007/04/05/faith/
  261. # [20:39] <zcorpan> ha
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  266. # [21:28] <zcorpan_> and does someone know how opera have treated wml historically?
  267. # [21:30] * Joins: Charl (n=charlvn@c1-241-1.wblv.isadsl.co.za)
  268. # [21:34] <hasather> zcorpan_: I only know that it has been supported for quite some time
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  270. # [21:36] <zcorpan_> i've seen hixie say that wml content generally isn't well-formed xml, and wml parsers aren't drocanian xml parsers
  271. # [21:36] <zcorpan_> but i can't find it back
  272. # [21:36] <hasather> zcorpan_: ok. Downliad Opera 4 and test it :)
  273. # [21:37] * zcorpan_ sighs
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  284. # [23:17] <zcorpan_> chris didn't top-post! let's hope he continues that way :)
  285. # [23:42] <hasather> noticed that. text/plain too :)
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  287. # [23:50] * othermaciej is now known as om_coffee
  288. # [23:51] <ianloic> coffee good
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  290. # Session Close: Fri Apr 06 00:00:00 2007

The end :)