/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-04-06 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Apr 06 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] * Quits: Charl (n=charlvn@c1-241-1.wblv.isadsl.co.za) ("Leaving")
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  6. # [00:15] <othermaciej> I <heart> coffee
  7. # [00:19] * othermaciej is now known as om_meet
  8. # [00:20] * zcorpan_ ♥ unicode
  9. # [00:20] <zcorpan_> (and utf-8 is implied in this room ;) )
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  11. # [00:49] <Philip`> Hmm, the example code under http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#outlines seems to be missing some brackets in the second and third if blocks
  12. # [00:51] <Hixie> indeed
  13. # [00:52] <zcorpan_> would be nice to have that script in a working demo page
  14. # [00:53] * zcorpan_ tried it before but didn't get it working
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  36. # [03:20] <ajnewbold> is it just me or does inline style not work when using the proposed <!DOCTYPE HTML> doctype?
  37. # [03:20] <Dashiva> Define does not work, and which browser?
  38. # [03:21] <ajnewbold> I was using firefox at work earlier, and now Safari here at home, and it seems like <div style="whatever"> is just being ignored
  39. # [03:21] <ajnewbold> the style within the quotes isn't applied to the element
  40. # [03:21] * ajnewbold double-checks
  41. # [03:22] <ajnewbold> yeah, it's just ignored
  42. # [03:23] <ajnewbold> I've never used any doctype other than the html4 strict one, but with that the usual behavior was that any inline style overrode everything else
  43. # [03:24] <Dashiva> I'm not getting any problems at http://folk.ntnu.no/magnusrk/test/inline5.html
  44. # [03:24] * Quits: KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) ("The computer fell asleep")
  45. # [03:24] <ajnewbold> hmm damn
  46. # [03:24] <Hixie> ajnewbold: i doubt it's the doctype doing it
  47. # [03:24] <Hixie> ajnewbold: do you have a test page we can look at?
  48. # [03:24] <ajnewbold> yep, http://newbold.name/
  49. # [03:24] <ajnewbold> where it says "test"
  50. # [03:25] <Dashiva> size?
  51. # [03:25] <ajnewbold> it should be 5em unless I've done something stupid
  52. # [03:25] <ajnewbold> yeah
  53. # [03:25] <ajnewbold> I could have sworn I used to be able to do that
  54. # [03:25] <Hixie> 'size' isn't a css property :-)
  55. # [03:25] <Hixie> you want font-size i think
  56. # [03:25] <ajnewbold> oh
  57. # [03:25] <ajnewbold> OH
  58. # [03:25] <ajnewbold> BLAST
  59. # [03:25] <ajnewbold> sorry for the false alarm, then :D
  60. # [03:25] <ajnewbold> this is what happens when I go away from html for a while :(
  61. # [03:25] <ajnewbold> I come back thinking things have broken, when it's really just me
  62. # [03:26] <Hixie> hehe
  63. # [03:26] <Dashiva> http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fnewbold.name%2F&warning=1&profile=css21&usermedium=all
  64. # [03:26] <Dashiva> For later
  65. # [03:27] <Dashiva> I'm postively surprised they support more than just CSS2 now
  66. # [03:27] <ajnewbold> woo no errors
  67. # [03:27] <ajnewbold> go me
  68. # [03:32] <ajnewbold> so what's the future look like for html 5?
  69. # [03:32] <ajnewbold> will the w3c accept it?
  70. # [03:34] <Hixie> hasn't really been discussed yet
  71. # [03:34] <ajnewbold> I know this might sound like the stupidest comment ever, but..
  72. # [03:34] <ajnewbold> I just want the w3c's validator to support it, once it's final :)
  73. # [03:35] <Hixie> yeah
  74. # [03:35] <Hixie> hsivonen is working on a validator
  75. # [03:35] <ajnewbold> ah, that takes care of that then
  76. # [03:36] <ajnewbold> hsivonen: will it do cool things like give helpful suggestions about how to fix problems?
  77. # [03:36] <ajnewbold> I remember an older version of the w3c's validator that was just downright unhelpful
  78. # [03:36] <ajnewbold> it'd be all "you forgot to close a tag somewhere, lol, good luck!"
  79. # [03:42] <deltab> it should check that its suggestions make sense, though
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  81. # [03:43] <Dashiva> Well, if you have a non-closing <em> (automatic closing aside), is the checker supposed to analyze your text and estimate where you'd want to end it? :)
  82. # [03:45] <deltab> e.g. if you try to put a block in an inline context, it shouldn't say that you can only do that by putting it inside a button element, as the validator has done
  83. # [03:48] <deltab> nor close the inline context and forget about it, later finding and ignoring the end tag a couple of blocks down
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  85. # [03:50] <deltab> i.e. treating <b><p>...</p><p>...</p></b> as <b></b><p>...</p><p>...</p>
  86. # [03:51] * Joins: Lachy (n=chatzill@124-168-24-114.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  87. # [03:51] <ajnewbold> is <b><p>...</p><p>...</p></b> legal?
  88. # [03:52] <deltab> not in HTML4
  89. # [03:52] <ajnewbold> is it in html 5?
  90. # [03:52] <deltab> I don't know
  91. # [03:52] <ajnewbold> it should be, because it's effin' cool
  92. # [03:52] <deltab> I realize the HTML5 parser algorithm tries to handle that sort of thing; it'd be useful for the validator to explain how the parsing went
  93. # [03:53] <ajnewbold> "Parsing your document went kind of poorly. You write HTML like it'd 1994."
  94. # [03:53] <ajnewbold> it's*
  95. # [03:53] <deltab> and, where possible, suggest *useful* (and not just *possible*) fixes
  96. # [03:53] <ajnewbold> I think it'd be great if it suggested books you could read
  97. # [03:53] <ajnewbold> or maybe even alternate career choices
  98. # [03:53] <deltab> heh
  99. # [03:54] <deltab> ^useful^sensible
  100. # [03:55] <ajnewbold> "Finished checking document: 782 errors found in 1,092 lines. Have you considered the very rewarding position of Waffle House line cook?"
  101. # [03:55] <Dashiva> On a scale from 1 to 10, you rate as Dreamweaver
  102. # [03:55] <ajnewbold> ouch!
  103. # [03:56] <ajnewbold> well, could be worse
  104. # [03:56] <ajnewbold> FrontPage. :P
  105. # [03:56] <Lachy> ajnewbold: <b><p>...</p></b> isn't legal because it wouldn't be completely compatible with the parsing requirements in all cases
  106. # [03:57] <ajnewbold> Lachy: aww :(
  107. # [03:57] <ajnewbold> it looked like fun
  108. # [03:57] <ajnewbold> or rather it reminded me of my first attempts at html, which were fun
  109. # [03:57] <Lachy> unfortunately, it's because of the way browsers have to handle it when the </p> is omitted
  110. # [03:58] <ajnewbold> I never understood the whole </p> omission thing
  111. # [03:58] <ajnewbold> I know it's legal, but damn does it feel weird
  112. # [03:58] <Lachy> see the adoption agency algorithm in the spec for more detail
  113. # [03:58] <ajnewbold> I've never brought myself to do it
  114. # [03:58] <Lachy> why? It's a convenient shorthand
  115. # [03:58] <ajnewbold> I can't really explain it
  116. # [03:58] <karlUshi> ajnewbold: in the early history of p semantics it was designed as a separator
  117. # [03:58] <Lachy> why should authors have to type</p> when its not necessary?
  118. # [03:58] <ajnewbold> Lachy: I don't know :(
  119. # [03:59] <ajnewbold> It's just an odd personal feeling of mine
  120. # [03:59] <Lachy> ajnewbold: it's probably because you've been seduced by the dark side of XHTML
  121. # [03:59] <ajnewbold> ironically, I haven't!
  122. # [03:59] <karlUshi> Lachy: it confuses people. :) it's because you are an old HTML cow
  123. # [03:59] <karlUshi> :p
  124. # [03:59] <ajnewbold> I despise X*
  125. # [03:59] <Dashiva> Typing </p> is like saying 'over' on the phone. It clarifies, but usually isn't necessary :)
  126. # [03:59] <ajnewbold> Dashiva: good analogy
  127. # [03:59] <ajnewbold> I still feel totally like I've screwed up if I leave it out, though :(
  128. # [03:59] * karlUshi prefers to close his tags also because it helps me to understand my documents.
  129. # [04:00] <karlUshi> for my personal use, it is really a usability question
  130. # [04:00] <Dashiva> I always close my tags unless I'm doing a throw-away testcase or somesuch
  131. # [04:00] <Dashiva> But that's just the neat freak in me
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  175. # [10:57] <annevk> "<b><p>test</p><p>test</p></b>" is handled just fine by HTML5
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  179. # [11:02] <zcorpan> omitting optional tags might take some getting used to at first, but i find it very effective. :) in particular it's faster to write markup. i've never made friends with auto-close features in editors
  180. # [11:03] <annevk> whoa, howcome posted an experimental version of Opera with <video> support online
  181. # [11:03] <annevk> cool
  182. # [11:03] <Hixie> been up for a while
  183. # [11:03] <Hixie> since last thursday
  184. # [11:03] <annevk> oh, didn't know
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  187. # [11:07] * zcorpan thinks css, xbl and media queries should cover all use-cases of onbeforeprint
  188. # [11:08] <annevk> they also cover all use cases for onmouseover
  189. # [11:10] <zcorpan> could be, but changing things for print is always presentational, is it not?
  190. # [11:11] <zcorpan> not that i'm strongly opposed to onbeforeprint or anything, though
  191. # [11:12] <annevk> onmouseover hopefully too
  192. # [11:12] <annevk> (but it's not)
  193. # [11:12] * annevk doesn't really have a strong opinion either
  194. # [11:13] <hsivonen> It seems to me that the best realistic initial outcome with <video> is that Opera and Mozilla ship Ogg Theora support, Apple ships a generic QuickTime hook, Microsoft ships a generic hook for the Window Media framework and Xiph ships QuickTime and Windows Media framework extensions for Ogg Theora
  195. # [11:15] <zcorpan> that could work
  196. # [11:15] * hsivonen doesn't believe that MS and Apple would ship Theora support initially
  197. # [11:16] * zcorpan is off to Robertsfors to visit his mother for the weekend
  198. # [11:16] <annevk> see you
  199. # [11:16] <zcorpan> bye
  200. # [11:16] <hsivonen> bye
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  202. # [11:29] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - would be interesting to hear from other browser vendors and device manufacturers about this
  203. # [11:29] <annevk> Nokia said no
  204. # [11:29] <MikeSmith> Access NetFront, Openwave, Teleca Obigo, Infraware
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  206. # [11:55] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: yes.
  207. # [12:03] <MikeSmith> lots of mobile browsers out there ...
  208. # [12:04] <MikeSmith> Infraware is on 70 percent of the handsets in Korea
  209. # [12:04] <MikeSmith> NetFront is in PSP, lots of other devices
  210. # [12:11] <hsivonen> I was rather unimpressed by the PSP browser
  211. # [12:12] <MikeSmith> UI compared to Nintendo DS is not so great
  212. # [12:12] <hasather> I did some testing of the PSP browser when it came out. I was also very unimpressed
  213. # [12:13] <MikeSmith> because unilike DS, PSP has no pen input/touchscreen
  214. # [12:13] <MikeSmith> pen makes browsing a lot easier
  215. # [12:13] <MikeSmith> on that kind of device
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  247. # [20:02] * aroben|home is now known as aroben
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  252. # [20:28] * Quits: KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-7dbcf5d45260e4ad) ("The computer fell asleep")
  253. # [20:28] * Quits: annevk (n=annevk@5352CE6F.cable.casema.nl) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  254. # [20:32] * Joins: fax_machine (n=fax_mach@unaffiliated/faxmachine/x-838442)
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  261. # [21:30] <Hixie> who's running the forums?
  262. # [21:31] <fax_machine> there are forums?
  263. # [21:32] * Quits: psa (n=yomode@posom.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  264. # [21:32] <fax_machine> oh, there ARE forums
  265. # [21:32] * fax_machine realizes he's never actually seen the front page of the WHATWG web site before
  266. # [21:32] <Hixie> heh
  267. # [21:33] <fax_machine> nice colors, btw
  268. # [21:33] * Joins: psa (n=yomode@posom.com)
  269. # [21:33] <Hixie> hehe
  270. # [21:33] <fax_machine> er
  271. # [21:33] <fax_machine> is the word "The" supposed to be behind the word "Web"?
  272. # [21:34] <fax_machine> top-left corner of the front page
  273. # [21:34] <Hixie> yes
  274. # [21:34] <fax_machine> ah ok
  275. # [21:34] <fax_machine> good then :)
  276. # [21:34] <Hixie> though it's funny how many people ask that
  277. # [21:34] <fax_machine> well, to us lay people with no design skills, it almost looks like a mistake
  278. # [21:34] <gsnedders> I mean, no part of how HTML works is a mistake :P
  279. # [21:35] <fax_machine> and of course the first thought is "omg they made a mistake lol" or "oh crap does my browser suck?"
  280. # [21:35] <fax_machine> it's interesting
  281. # [21:35] <fax_machine> in Opera, it looks best
  282. # [21:35] <fax_machine> there's enough of the "The" poking up above the "Web" that the effect looks really good
  283. # [21:36] <fax_machine> in Safari and Camino it looks like a mistake :P
  284. # [21:36] <gsnedders> probably due to Opera rounding down numbers
  285. # [21:36] <fax_machine> heh, Opera always makes things look better :)
  286. # [21:36] <fax_machine> I should use it more
  287. # [21:37] * Quits: KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-ce946f5248a5383b) ("The computer fell asleep")
  288. # [21:42] <fax_machine> heh, does Anne van Kesteren ever come here?
  289. # [21:42] <gsnedders> as annevk
  290. # [21:42] <gsnedders> often
  291. # [21:42] <fax_machine> cool
  292. # [21:42] <fax_machine> I totally need to tell her that I love that pic on her site
  293. # [21:42] <fax_machine> the "Standards Suck" guy
  294. # [21:42] <gsnedders> *his site
  295. # [21:43] <gsnedders> *tell him
  296. # [21:43] <fax_machine> ah yeah
  297. # [21:43] <fax_machine> first I have to remove my foot from my mouth
  298. # [21:43] <gsnedders> he goes as anne on irc.w3.org
  299. # [21:43] <fax_machine> and become exposed to a bit more global culture, evidently
  300. # [21:43] <gsnedders> even in en, Anne is a gender neutral name
  301. # [21:43] <fax_machine> in en, maybe, but not in the USA
  302. # [21:44] <fax_machine> a man named Anne here wouldn't make it past 1st grade in school :(
  303. # [21:44] <gsnedders> I mean in the English language
  304. # [21:44] <fax_machine> I know
  305. # [21:44] <gsnedders> It's rare, but it exists.
  306. # [21:44] <fax_machine> but as you surely know, we don't really use the English language over here :P
  307. # [21:44] <gsnedders> of course :)
  308. # [21:44] <fax_machine> we speak in vomit-like tongues, a mixture of oblivious richness and SUV exhaust
  309. # [21:44] * Joins: kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-187-033.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  310. # [21:45] <gsnedders> it's most common in North Germanic languages as a male name
  311. # [21:46] <gsnedders> well, nowadays
  312. # [21:46] <fax_machine> interesting
  313. # [21:46] <gsnedders> there've been times when it's been predominantly male in en
  314. # [21:46] <fax_machine> I believe it
  315. # [21:46] <fax_machine> there've been times when men were the predominant knitters, as well :)
  316. # [21:46] <fax_machine> (early 1600s)
  317. # [21:47] <gsnedders> there've been times when 14 year olds are involved in developing standards…
  318. # [21:47] <gsnedders> wait, that's now.
  319. # [21:48] <fax_machine> heh
  320. # [21:49] <fax_machine> I know of a 12-year old who contributed significantly to PHP's earlier version 4 releases
  321. # [21:49] <gsnedders> heh
  322. # [21:49] * gsnedders has a strong dislike of PHP
  323. # [21:49] <gsnedders> parts because of how the developers behave
  324. # [21:49] <fax_machine> yeah :(
  325. # [21:50] <gsnedders> I had to report a bug twice to get it fixed, once told that what PHP did following the spec, despite me saying it didn't
  326. # [21:50] <gsnedders> the second time I cited the specific sections of the spec
  327. # [21:50] <fax_machine> hehe
  328. # [21:50] <fax_machine> yeah, you shouldn't have to do that
  329. # [21:50] <gsnedders> the devs should go look the spec up themselves when they are told it breaks the spec.
  330. # [21:50] <fax_machine> I hate it when developers get defensive
  331. # [21:50] <gsnedders> I shouldn't have to.
  332. # [21:50] <fax_machine> exactly
  333. # [21:50] <fax_machine> well, they just assumed that they were right
  334. # [21:51] <fax_machine> it's a very arrogant attitude
  335. # [21:51] <gsnedders> F/OSS run as a dictatorship only works with a good strong dictator
  336. # [21:51] <fax_machine> :)
  337. # [21:52] * gsnedders doesn't want to put the current release of SimplePie through all the new unit tests
  338. # [21:52] <gsnedders> I'd hate to see how badly it does
  339. # [21:53] <fax_machine> what's SimplePie?
  340. # [21:53] <gsnedders> <http://simplepie.org/>
  341. # [21:53] <gsnedders> written in PHP, ironically :)
  342. # [21:53] <fax_machine> ah
  343. # [21:53] <fax_machine> that looks neat
  344. # [21:55] <gsnedders> http://diveintomark.org/archives/2004/08/16/specs – sometimes I think I fall a bit too much into the "Asshole" category
  345. # [21:56] * fax_machine is a "moron"
  346. # [21:56] * gsnedders used to be a total one
  347. # [21:57] <gsnedders> specs! peh! they make no sense! all too technical!
  348. # [21:57] <gsnedders> now I can read specs without thinking about it :P
  349. # [21:57] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@86.34.246.154) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  350. # [21:58] <fax_machine> I guess I might be a super-moron
  351. # [21:58] <fax_machine> not only have I traditionally ignored specs, but I've ignored standards too :P
  352. # [21:58] <fax_machine> only recently have I taken an interest in standards
  353. # [21:59] * gsnedders sadly got caught by those who say XHTML > HTML
  354. # [21:59] <gsnedders> now as someone who has actually read specs and understood them, it's just wrong.
  355. # [22:00] <fax_machine> I've only seen maybe one or two sites done in XHTML that (a) used the right content-type, and (b) really actually made use of any of xhtml's features that aren't available in plain old html
  356. # [22:00] * gsnedders sighs…
  357. # [22:00] <fax_machine> my theory is that 99% of developers who use xhtml do so simply because they think it's the newer, and therefore better, markup
  358. # [22:01] <gsnedders> I have a whole book of English past paper beside me
  359. # [22:01] <gsnedders> I'm really tempted to do one of the writing ones
  360. # [22:01] <fax_machine> does Mark Pilgrim ever chat in here
  361. # [22:02] <Dashiva> I'm sure some of them just let the editor/cms/whatever add the doctype
  362. # [22:02] <hasather> fax_machine: it happens
  363. # [22:02] <gsnedders> as markp
  364. # [22:02] <fax_machine> hsivonen: is he as clever and funny here as he is on his blog?
  365. # [22:03] <hasather> fax_machine: I think you meant that for me. Dunno really, haven't seen him talk much
  366. # [22:03] * gsnedders tries not to laugh at one of the tasks – "Television shows such as Pop Idol do more harm than good. Discuss."
  367. # [22:03] <gsnedders> he barely talks
  368. # [22:04] <gsnedders> I've talked to him once, but all about rather complex stuff with both of us busy, little time for jokes
  369. # [22:04] <fax_machine> hasather: heh yes, I did mean that for you :)
  370. # [22:06] <gsnedders> time to write yet another essay, this time fiction, unlike the last <http://geoffers.uni.cc/archives/2007/04/06/new-people-in-new-surroundings/>
  371. # [22:07] <fax_machine> "Questioning me as to what colour her bra is, I answer honestly. It’s black, and rather visible through her thin white shirt."
  372. # [22:07] * fax_machine keeps reading :)
  373. # [22:08] <gsnedders> fax_machine: it's completely true. It's written in the first person with reason. :)
  374. # [22:08] <fax_machine> hehe
  375. # [22:08] <fax_machine> dude, you told her no :(
  376. # [22:08] <gsnedders> I didn't then
  377. # [22:08] <fax_machine> you could have totally scored
  378. # [22:08] <gsnedders> too ill then anyway
  379. # [22:09] <fax_machine> ah :(
  380. # [22:09] <gsnedders> only really been well enough since Dec
  381. # [22:09] <fax_machine> well
  382. # [22:09] <gsnedders> just been too shy and cowardly since
  383. # [22:09] <fax_machine> what are you waiting for?
  384. # [22:09] <fax_machine> ah
  385. # [22:09] <fax_machine> you can fix that
  386. # [22:10] * gsnedders starts writing an essay about a homosexual relationship, non-fiction, this time
  387. # [22:10] <fax_machine> try very hard to get a glimpse of the sort of live you might envision having that would involve her, and then ask yourself how much more of your life you're going to waste before you make that vision a reality :)
  388. # [22:10] <fax_machine> s/live/life/
  389. # [22:10] <gsnedders> she's so much older than me, though…
  390. # [22:10] <fax_machine> pfft, meaningless
  391. # [22:11] <fax_machine> it's only an issue if you make it one
  392. # [22:11] <gsnedders> if I overheard what her friends were saying once in another class, she's over two years older than me
  393. # [22:11] <fax_machine> how old are you?
  394. # [22:11] <gsnedders> 14, 15 in 2 weeks
  395. # [22:11] <fax_machine> heh :)
  396. # [22:11] <gsnedders> she's already 17, since Mar
  397. # [22:11] <fax_machine> My wife and I met in high school
  398. # [22:12] <fax_machine> and when I was 14, she was 17 (but I turned 15 shortly after that)
  399. # [22:12] <fax_machine> we're 2 years and 2 months apart in age
  400. # [22:12] <gsnedders> I've been moved up a year, her, from what I heard, down one (or maybe she started a year late)
  401. # [22:12] <fax_machine> now I'm 27 and she's 29 and we're as happy as anyone could ever be :)
  402. # [22:13] <fax_machine> when you're 14/15, 2 years can feel like a really big deal
  403. # [22:13] * gsnedders has been ill for a quarter of his life, missed years of school (literally), and still manages to be moved up a year and do very very well
  404. # [22:13] <fax_machine> but trust me, with every year that passes, it becomes less significant
  405. # [22:13] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  406. # [22:13] <fax_machine> gsnedders: that's awesome
  407. # [22:13] <fax_machine> you've definitely got something great going on there
  408. # [22:13] <othermaciej> the HTML WG is continuing to get less fun
  409. # [22:14] * gsnedders has been in web dev since age… 11 (and I mean by that actually hand coding)
  410. # [22:14] <fax_machine> now, get the girl and live happily ever after :)
  411. # [22:14] <gsnedders> othermaciej: totally.
  412. # [22:14] <gsnedders> othermaciej: codec arguments, questions about <canvas>… ugh.
  413. # [22:14] <fax_machine> sounds like #web
  414. # [22:15] <gsnedders> just on a far more technical level
  415. # [22:15] <Dashiva> othermaciej: Is it reality setting in?
  416. # [22:15] * Joins: aroben (i=adamrobe@nat/apple/x-477ad37718bab1a9)
  417. # [22:15] <othermaciej> Dashiva: it's more of the parties who do not share the WHATWG rough consensus coming to the table
  418. # [22:16] <Dashiva> I also feel there's an air of "we're at the w3c now, and we do things this way" in some of the dialogue
  419. # [22:16] <gsnedders> I think the questions about <canvas> are pointless. It already has three stable implementations.
  420. # [22:17] <Hixie> haven't got to those yet
  421. # [22:17] <Hixie> i'm still trying to deal with the versioning issue
  422. # [22:17] <Philip`> There are at least two more (Rhino Canvas and KHTML), though I have no idea whether they count as stable
  423. # [22:17] <Hixie> ex-canvas, too
  424. # [22:18] <Philip`> Oh, that too
  425. # [22:19] <gsnedders> fax_machine: pm?
  426. # [22:19] <fax_machine> gsnedders: sure, go for it
  427. # [22:20] <Philip`> though it doesn't seem fair to call it stable either, since most features are buggy or missing (and presumably impossible with the limits of VML)
  428. # [22:27] <Philip`> Given the lack of extreme enthusiasm for <canvas>, it would seem sensible to avoid bringing up the issue of an OpenGL canvas in the HTML WG - that's probably best left to implementors and the WHATWG for now :-)
  429. # [22:28] <Hixie> opengl canvas is only missing one thing
  430. # [22:28] <Hixie> someone who knows opengl, who knows how to write neat simple js apis, and who can write specs
  431. # [22:29] <othermaciej> I am not sure such a mythical person exists
  432. # [22:30] * Joins: aroben_ (i=adamrobe@nat/apple/x-8cc51812c7277f32)
  433. # [22:30] <Hixie> well i can do the last one, and i'm not too bad at the middle one when i have people reviewing the apis to point out improvements, the first one is my problem. failing all else, i'll have to go on a 3d/opengl crash course.
  434. # [22:31] <Philip`> At least all the complicated graphical stuff can be left in the OpenGL spec - probably the only place where the 3D canvas interacts with actual graphics is when loading textures, and the rest is a wrapper API
  435. # [22:31] <Philip`> (unlike the 2D canvas, where the rendering has to be defined)
  436. # [22:32] <othermaciej> OpenGL is not a very friendly API to use directly
  437. # [22:32] <othermaciej> so a very literal-mided wrapper would probably not work so well
  438. # [22:33] * Quits: aroben_ (i=adamrobe@nat/apple/x-8cc51812c7277f32) (Remote closed the connection)
  439. # [22:33] <Philip`> Would it be sensible to leave user-friendly APIs to other non-standards people, where they can just implement wrappers in JavaScript and users can decide which one works best?
  440. # [22:33] * Joins: aroben_ (i=adamrobe@nat/apple/x-f4cf5ae63f57a981)
  441. # [22:36] <Philip`> (though I think the canvas should at least provide a way to efficiently load arrays of numbers into GL vertex-arrays, since that was the slowest bit when I tried loading models into the Firefox canvas3d extension some time ago - so that's probably the kind of place where the design gets more complex)
  442. # [22:38] * Quits: aroben (i=adamrobe@nat/apple/x-477ad37718bab1a9) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  443. # [22:40] <hsivonen> I guess it is hard to get people to agree on anything higher-level than OpenGL
  444. # [22:40] <Hixie> nah
  445. # [22:41] <hsivonen> Considering that the 2D abstraction is basically filling and stroking bézier paths, I don't think OpenGL is too low-level
  446. # [22:41] <Hixie> who runs the forums, anyone remember?
  447. # [22:41] <Hixie> i have a support request from someone
  448. # [22:41] <Hixie> was it zcorpan?
  449. # [22:41] <hsivonen> Hixie: it's zcorpan and he left
  450. # [22:41] <hsivonen> (for the weekend, that is)
  451. # [22:41] <Hixie> k
  452. # [22:42] <Hixie> i'll forward it to him
  453. # [22:42] <hsivonen> fax_machine: Regarding the conformance checker question last night: No, the conformance checker is not helpful in its current version. I do have plans on how to make it more helpful, though.
  454. # [22:42] <fax_machine> hsivonen: sweet
  455. # [22:43] * Quits: ericcarlson (n=ericcarl@adsl-67-115-144-162.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  456. # [22:43] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I don't think the basic ideas are too low-level, but some of the details of OpenGL APIs are
  457. # [22:43] <othermaciej> dunno, it's been a couple of years since I did any OpenGL programming
  458. # [22:44] <hsivonen> I haven't done OpenGL programming since 2002
  459. # [22:44] <hsivonen> I'm assuming that whatever was available on SGI O2 then is now available in OpenGL ES :-)
  460. # [22:46] * Joins: KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-8fcb896a90a1cb6e)
  461. # [22:47] <othermaciej> hey KevinMarks
  462. # [22:49] <Philip`> OpenGL ES has been stripped of lots of the old OpenGL stuff - even basic things like immediate-mode Begin/Vertex/End and display lists - so it's probably not quite like old OpenGL programmers would remember :-)
  463. # [22:51] <KevinMarks> hi om
  464. # [22:55] <hsivonen> Philip`: ok. I haven't really taken a close look at OpenGL ES.
  465. # [23:06] * Joins: ericcarlson (n=ericcarl@adsl-67-115-144-162.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
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  477. # [23:34] <fax_machine> sheesh
  478. # [23:34] <fax_machine> my cable company sucks
  479. # [23:40] * Quits: aroben_ (i=adamrobe@nat/apple/x-f4cf5ae63f57a981)
  480. # [23:41] * Quits: KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-8fcb896a90a1cb6e) ("The computer fell asleep")
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  485. # Session Close: Sat Apr 07 00:00:00 2007

The end :)