/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-04-07 / end

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  63. # [14:25] <gsnedders> http://geoffers.uni.cc/archives/2007/04/07/why-xhtml-as-texthtml-is-evil/ – anyone want to check I haven't made some really stupid mistake in that?
  64. # [14:29] <hsivonen> s/as HTML is a SGML application/as HTML 4 purports to be an SGML application/
  65. # [14:30] * moeffju[ZzZz] is now known as moeffju[Headway]
  66. # [14:30] <hsivonen> "This is rendered as such in a browser that the first <img> and the final “>” is displayed." umm. not in the real non-SGML world
  67. # [14:31] <hsivonen> s/reference engineering/reverse engineering/
  68. # [14:31] <hsivonen> "a few UAs that still use SGML parsers, such as feed readers implementing autodiscovery" Huh?
  69. # [14:32] <Dashiva> Might want to point a reference on that one
  70. # [14:32] <ajnewbold> s/(*.)/xhtml sucks/
  71. # [14:32] <hsivonen> "thereby not being a delta specification, based upon SGML" the comma seems to give the sentence exactly the wrong meaning
  72. # [14:32] <Dashiva> I thought the / in the tags would appear as text, but that could be my mistake
  73. # [14:32] <Philip`> s/\(\*\.\)/(.*)/
  74. # [14:32] <ajnewbold> Philip`: drat
  75. # [14:32] <ajnewbold> I fail :)
  76. # [14:33] <moeffju[Headway]> Dashiva, no, the slash is either an invalid attribute name or a NET-enabling marker
  77. # [14:33] <hsivonen> typo: guaranty
  78. # [14:33] <ajnewbold> hsivonen: he's british
  79. # [14:33] <ajnewbold> so it's ok
  80. # [14:33] <ajnewbold> I, too, prefer "guarantee"
  81. # [14:34] <hsivonen> gsnedders: well-formed as a concept does not apply to HTML
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  83. # [14:34] <hsivonen> ajnewbold: ok. I wasn't familiar with the alternative spelling
  84. # [14:36] <ajnewbold> I wish he found an excuse to use "bloody" in there
  85. # [14:36] <gsnedders> maybe I wrote it a bit too quickly :P
  86. # [14:37] <ajnewbold> I also wish Safari would properly match the background-color to the color used in the background image of the main section :(
  87. # [14:38] <gsnedders> ajnewbold: I never got around to doing anything about that
  88. # [14:38] <hsivonen> my crystal ball tells me you are talking about this: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/png-gamma/
  89. # [14:38] <ajnewbold> yeah, that's the issue
  90. # [14:38] <Dashiva> I sometimes fear that if too many people go writing "xhtml sucks" articles, the weaker ones will be used as an excuse to derail the real issue
  91. # [14:39] <ajnewbold> Dashiva: yeah, but it would sure save on bandwidth
  92. # [14:39] <ajnewbold> ;P
  93. # [14:40] <gsnedders> hsivonen: surely the "this is rendered" in that context refers to the DOM tree?
  94. # [14:40] <Philip`> The background colours don't match in Opera either, at least if you zoom in/out
  95. # [14:40] <hsivonen> gsnedders: well, you might want to emphasize that it is a hypothetical situation
  96. # [14:40] <hsivonen> gsnedders: you do mention browsers
  97. # [14:43] <gsnedders> hsivonen: "How then do real world browsers create the same DOM tree in both parsing modes?…" doesn't that paragraph cover that?
  98. # [14:43] <hsivonen> does anyone remember off-hand how <legend>foo <ul><li>bar</li><ul></legend> parses as HTML?
  99. # [14:44] <hsivonen> gsnedders: yes, but I considering how easy it is to start bogus rumors, I suggest emphasizing the hypothetical nature of the example
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  101. # [14:49] <Dashiva> Heh
  102. # [14:50] <Dashiva> Someone is blasting anne's mail about comments because "they are not compatible with current or previous UAs"
  103. # [14:55] <gsnedders> hsivonen: emphasising it how?
  104. # [14:57] <gsnedders> hsivonen: "(thereby in the real world making it irrelevant)"?
  105. # [15:01] <hsivonen> "if brewsers used real SGML parsers" or something to that effect
  106. # [15:01] <hsivonen> browsers
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  114. # [16:52] <annevk> hsivonen, that becomes html > [head, body > legend > ["foo", ul > [li > "bar", ul]]]
  115. # [16:52] <annevk> if you meant to write </ul> the syntax would match the tree
  116. # [16:53] <annevk> (per html5lib anyway)
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  119. # [17:02] <hsivonen> annevk: excellent. thanks
  120. # [17:02] <hsivonen> annevk: the result means that struct-inline works in <legend> as text/html
  121. # [17:03] <hsivonen> annevk: and yes, I meant </ul>
  122. # [17:04] <annevk> someone should just make some simple applets and document <applet>
  123. # [17:06] <annevk> I thought of doing it, but I'm not sure I want to promote client-side Java usage
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  125. # [17:09] <hsivonen> annevk: I don't want to promote applet usage, either, but I don't want conformance checking to implicitly promote <object> contortions, either.
  126. # [17:09] <webben> What's our reason for wishing to discourage applet usage?
  127. # [17:10] <webben> s/applet/client-side Java/
  128. # [17:11] <hsivonen> webben: client-side Java is fine as far as I am concerned, but applets suck really badly
  129. # [17:11] <webben> i thought all client-side Java was applets?
  130. # [17:11] <webben> or do you mean <applet> sucks?
  131. # [17:12] <hsivonen> webben: there's Web Start and there are permanently installed apps
  132. # [17:12] <hsivonen> webben: I meant Java applet suck no matter how you embed them
  133. # [17:12] <webben> ah okay. i thought <applet> relied on Web Start
  134. # [17:13] <hsivonen> it doesn't
  135. # [17:13] <hsivonen> predates Web Start by several years
  136. # [17:13] <webben> I see.
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  138. # [18:28] <annevk> hsivonen, right, <object> contortians?
  139. # [18:28] <annevk> <embed type=application/java code=foo.class>
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  142. # [19:11] <hsivonen> annevk: the Sun <object> examples are rather ugly compared to <applet>
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  153. # [21:06] <annevk> hsivonen, eventually one of those <object> cases will have to work cross browser
  154. # [21:13] <annevk> What's IPTC?
  155. # [21:13] <hsivonen> annevk: isn't that the pre-XMP way of putting metadata in bitmaps in Photoshop?
  156. # [21:13] <annevk> see http://www.w3.org/mid/4617ECB7.4050308@aptest.com
  157. # [21:14] <annevk> International Press Telecommunications Counsel
  158. # [21:15] <hsivonen> seems to be the organization that defined the metadata field that Photoshop uses
  159. # [21:15] <hsivonen> so I wasn't totally off-mark
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The end :)