/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-04-12 / end

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1. # Session Start: Thu Apr 12 00:00:00 2007
2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
3. # [00:00] <annevk> but I suspect that might be difficult
4. # [00:00] <KevinMarks> I'm doing one on Sunday
5. # [00:00] <annevk> cool
6. # [00:01] <annevk> Lachy is creating a wiki page where people can probably point to slides and such (if you intend to publish them)
7. # [00:01] <KevinMarks> well, mine is on microformats, btu I can get an HTML5 reference in
8. # [00:03] <annevk> ah ok
9. # [00:03] * annevk misunderstood
10. # [00:06] * Joins: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@84-216-42-112.sprayadsl.telenor.se)
11. # [00:10] <Lachy> I've added my presentation and Hixie's to the wiki page. Are there any other publicly available presentations I should add?
12. # [00:10] <Lachy> annevk, should I list yours in w3c-archive, even though it's member only?
13. # [00:11] * Joins: aroben_ (i=adamrobe@nat/apple/x-93aca3f1509baae9)
14. # [00:11] <annevk> I could make it public
15. # [00:11] <Lachy> that would be good
16. # [00:11] <annevk> it's not really about HTML5 though
17. # [00:12] <Lachy> it's related to it a little, but I don't need to add it if you don't want
18. # [00:15] * Quits: hasather (n=hasather@81-235-209-174-no62.tbcn.telia.com) (Remote closed the connection)
19. # [00:15] <Lachy> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/HTML5_Presentations
20. # [00:15] * Joins: hasather (n=hasather@81-235-209-174-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
21. # [00:16] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@84-216-42-112.sprayadsl.telenor.se) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
22. # [00:17] * zcorpan_ will probably hold a presentation next month, in swedish
23. # [00:19] <zcorpan_> at geekmeet
24. # [00:21] <annevk> Lachy, http://www.w3.org/mid/op.tqm4d0o764w2qv@id-c0020
25. # [00:21] <annevk> Lachy, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Apr/att-0024/slides.xml has the slides
26. # [00:24] <Philip`> "Not YAML" - that confused me until I realised it wasn't talking about the actual YAML (as in http://www.yaml.org/)
27. # [00:24] * Quits: aroben (i=adamrobe@nat/apple/x-42419ce8571824ef) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
28. # [00:25] <annevk> That's the great thing about using <abbr> in slides - nobody can ever tell what you meant until they look at the source code
29. # [00:28] <zcorpan_> annevk: what's with xml:id?
30. # [00:28] <annevk> did you notice the date?
31. # [00:29] <annevk> March 2006
32. # [00:29] <zcorpan_> ah
33. # [00:29] <zcorpan_> ok
34. # [00:29] <annevk> I was 19 back then and xml:id was new, cool and supported in Opera nightlies
35. # [00:29] <zcorpan_> yup
36. # [00:33] * Quits: aroben_ (i=adamrobe@nat/apple/x-93aca3f1509baae9) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
37. # [00:34] <Hixie> ok now i have to spec the playback rate stuff
38. # [00:37] <annevk> Hixie, did you see the stuff Philip` made?
39. # [00:37] <annevk> Hixie, would be nice if you could integrate that somehow in the spec build script
40. # [00:38] <Hixie> ian@hixie.ch
41. # [00:39] <annevk> Philip`, will you e-mail it?
42. # [00:39] * Joins: aroben (i=adamrobe@nat/apple/x-1084baa8f1423311)
43. # [00:40] * Parts: aroben (i=adamrobe@nat/apple/x-1084baa8f1423311)
44. # [00:42] <Hixie> othermaciej: my concern with having a .defaultPlaybackRate that basically does nothing (but will be used by native ui), and having a .playbackRate for the current rate, and requiring .playbackRate = .defaultPlaybackRate to reset, is that nobody will use it
45. # [00:42] <Hixie> they'll just have their own internal state
46. # [00:42] <othermaciej> Hixie: I'll have to read what you wrote up
47. # [00:42] <othermaciej> it's on the todo list
48. # [00:42] <Hixie> and so if you set the speed to 2x in the ui, and then hit ffwd in the non-native ui, and then hit play, it'll go back to 1x
49. # [00:42] <Hixie> i haven't written anything yet
50. # [00:43] <Hixie> i'm trying to work out what to write
51. # [00:43] <othermaciej> ah
52. # [00:43] <Hixie> maybe we can force it by saying that sound will only play if defaultPlaybackRate = playbackRate
53. # [00:43] <Hixie> then people will have to set both
54. # [00:43] <othermaciej> so the idea is that defaultPlaybackRate is what you use when you hit play()
55. # [00:44] <othermaciej> er
56. # [00:44] <othermaciej> when you call play()
57. # [00:44] <Hixie> yeah we can have play reset the rate as well, someone yesterday was against it though
58. # [00:45] <Hixie> though they didn't give reasons
59. # [00:45] <annevk> play(rate)
60. # [00:45] <othermaciej> I think play() should set playbackRate to defaultPlaybackRate, this makes sense w/ the way controls work
61. # [00:45] <Hixie> k
62. # [00:45] <Hixie> i agree
63. # [00:45] <Hixie> ok
64. # [00:45] <Hixie> and also mute when the rates don't agree?
65. # [00:46] <Hixie> or only mute when they don't agree for video?
66. # [00:46] <othermaciej> FF of video might want to mute, but fast forward of audio likely wouldn't
67. # [00:46] <Lachy> Hixie, no
68. # [00:46] <Hixie> othermaciej: yeah
69. # [00:46] <Hixie> maybe we should require ui to hit mute themselves
70. # [00:46] <Hixie> though that would confuse other controllers maybe
71. # [00:46] <Hixie> as all but one controller would be displaying the mute ui
72. # [00:46] <Lachy> it depends on the reason they're using playback rate
73. # [00:47] <deltab> other controllers?
74. # [00:47] <Hixie> lachy: well there are two rates -- the default rate, which is the normal playback rate the user selected, and the current (temporary) rate, which, if different, is the rate used to ffwd or rew.
75. # [00:47] <Lachy> the user may just want to speed it up to, e.g. watch a 20 min presention in just 10, and in that case audio is needed
76. # [00:47] <Hixie> then they'd set the default rate to 2
77. # [00:47] <Lachy> oh, ok.
78. # [00:47] <Hixie> and the default rate would equal the rate
79. # [00:48] <Lachy> I should go read the spec before I comment
80. # [00:48] <Hixie> there is no spec
81. # [00:48] <Hixie> yet
82. # [00:48] <Hixie> trying to work out what it shouldbe
83. # [00:48] <Lachy> ah, well, there's been heaps of stuff added to <video> since I last read it anyway
84. # [00:48] <Hixie> true
85. # [00:48] <Hixie> i wonder if we need a "mute while ffwding" flag
86. # [00:49] * Hixie goes to attend to biological needs like food while thinking about this
87. # [00:49] <deltab> also whether it should pitch-shift
88. # [00:49] * Quits: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) ("ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)")
89. # [00:49] <ianloic> hmm
90. # [00:50] <ianloic> is it a good idea to put that much logic into <audio> & <video>?
91. # [00:50] <ianloic> what if I want to use them to do more fancy multimedia things?
92. # [00:51] <KevinMarks> pitch shifting is a useragent thing
93. # [00:51] <ianloic> I should be able to build simple loop-based composition tools with just a little bit of html5, but tying the playback rate to play() would likely break that
94. # [00:51] <KevinMarks> QT didn't used to do it, but it was added recently, and it helps a lot when you are doing 1.25x audio
95. # [00:52] <KevinMarks> etc
96. # [00:52] <ianloic> and there are so many different ways to pitch shift
97. # [00:52] <KevinMarks> but requiring it is a bit harsh if you don't have the audio processing juice to do it
98. # [00:52] <ianloic> if you don't do decent formant shifting a lot of content will sound really weird
99. # [00:53] <deltab> KevinMarks: yeah, that was my concern
100. # [00:53] * Quits: h3h (n=h3h@66-162-32-234.static.twtelecom.net) ("|")
101. # [00:53] <ianloic> so, what about user agents that can only play back one thing at once?
102. # [00:54] <ianloic> does it make sense to track some kind of "media focus"?
103. # [00:54] <ianloic> if I want to play each of the pieces of media on a page in order?
104. # [00:54] <KevinMarks> you cna do it time domain on speech and have it work well, but music will sound weird
105. # [00:55] <KevinMarks> that brings us back to sequencing, which I keep saying we need
106. # [01:01] <Lachy> ha! Spammers are posting filthy jokes to the blog :-)
107. # [01:02] <othermaciej> presenting audio above normal rate has lots of options
108. # [01:02] <Dashiva> Lachy: You mean they talk about XHTML2?
109. # [01:02] <othermaciej> you can do a pitch-distorting speedup, you can try to do a pitch-preserving speedup, you can stutter like many consumer CD players do, you can mute
110. # [01:03] <othermaciej> not sure the spec needs to say which happens
111. # [01:03] <Lachy> Dashiva, no, but that would be funny also
112. # [01:04] <Philip`> annevk, Hixie: Yep - I've emailed it now
113. # [01:05] <deltab> othermaciej: if your game, music composer, etc. relies on the pitch changing, the others aren't acceptable
114. # [01:06] <ianloic> I would suggest that exposing fast-forward functionality independent of playback rate would be valuable
115. # [01:06] <othermaciej> deltab: I'm not sure it is reasonable to expect user agents to support all 4 strategies
116. # [01:07] <deltab> me neither, but the issue should be considered, imho
117. # [01:07] <zcorpan_> Lachy: is the spam from bots or from humans?
118. # [01:08] <Lachy> not sure
119. # [01:08] <Lachy> there was no URL, so I'm not sure what the purpose of it was
120. # [01:08] <ianloic> are the jokes funny?
121. # [01:09] <ianloic> the purpose could be to make you laugh
122. # [01:09] <Lachy> I can post it here if you like
123. # [01:09] <Lachy> it's not too rude
124. # [01:10] <Lachy> Hello blog.whatwg.org!
125. # [01:10] <Lachy> A woman went to her doctor and complained that her husband was 300% impotent.
126. # [01:10] <Lachy> The doctor replied, "I'm not sure I understand what you mean."
127. # [01:10] <Lachy> She answered, "Well, the first 100% you can imagine. In addition, he burned his tongue and broke his finger!"
128. # [01:10] <ianloic> hah
129. # [01:10] <ianloic> no buy viagra link though?
130. # [01:10] <Lachy> nope
131. # [01:11] <othermaciej> so would 19 USD be too much for a 5 > 2 t-shirt?
132. # [01:11] * Joins: aroben_ (i=adamrobe@nat/apple/x-fc4b2f360c2fa511)
133. # [01:11] <zcorpan_> not really
134. # [01:12] <othermaciej> maybe I can get it cheaper by eliminating profit for me (which I don't want)
135. # [01:12] <Lachy> that's about $AU23 + postage, which is reasonable
136. # [01:12] <othermaciej> should I be optimistic and have a women's tee design as well?
137. # [01:12] <zcorpan_> molly might want one :)
138. # [01:13] <Philip`> (Do you mean you don't to eliminate profit for you, or that you don't want profit for you?)
139. # [01:13] <othermaciej> I don't want profit for me
140. # [01:13] <zcorpan_> how much cheaper would it be?
141. # [01:14] <Lachy> does the seller make any profit from cafepress sales?
142. # [01:14] <Philip`> Okay, I assumed that was most likely :-)
143. # [01:15] <Philip`> You could always use any profit to buy an extra T-shirt and send it to the XHTML2 guys
144. # [01:15] <Dashiva> I haven't heard much good about cafepress (but I've never used them myself)
145. # [01:16] <Lachy> or just donate the profit to a worthwhile charity
146. # [01:16] <Lachy> like the FSF or Mozilla Foundation
147. # [01:17] * Parts: aroben_ (i=adamrobe@nat/apple/x-fc4b2f360c2fa511)
148. # [01:18] <Dashiva> Does the whatwg have an economy, or is everything needed (like hosting) provided by the members?
149. # [01:18] * Quits: annevk (n=annevk@86.90.70.28) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
150. # [01:18] <Lachy> Hixie pays for the hosting
151. # [01:18] <ianloic> he's trading hosting for stock though
152. # [01:18] <ianloic> when WHATWG get's acquired he'll be rich
153. # [01:19] <ianloic> (where did that apostrophe come from?)
154. # [01:19] <Dashiva> From xhtml2
155. # [01:19] <Dashiva> It's all their fault
156. # [01:20] <KevinMarks> definitely do womens shirts
157. # [01:20] <hasather> Dashiva: Yea, I've suspected that they've been tampering with this channel for a long time now
158. # [01:20] <KevinMarks> the microformats strategy of equal numbers of male and female shirts definitely paid off
159. # [01:20] <Lachy> the XHTML2 WG have their own IRC channel now
160. # [01:21] <Dashiva> copycats
161. # [01:21] <Lachy> irc://irc.w3.org:6665/xhtml
162. # [01:21] * Lachy joined in earlier
163. # [01:21] <Hixie> is it logged?
164. # [01:21] <Lachy> not yet
165. # [01:21] <Hixie> Philip`: yt?
166. # [01:21] <Lachy> but it's not as if there's heaps of discussion going on there
167. # [01:21] <hasather> One would think that they can keep their apostrophes in their own channel
168. # [01:22] <KevinMarks> I didn't think xhtml had &apos;
169. # [01:22] <Dashiva> Maybe they're making a subtle comment about html allowing the absense of quoting in non-spaced attributes
170. # [01:22] <hasather> KevinMarks: it has, HTML hasn't
171. # [01:22] <Lachy> krijnh should join the XHTML2 channel and put logs up on his site too
172. # [01:23] <Philip`> Hixie: Huh?
173. # [01:23] <KevinMarks> aha
174. # [01:23] <zcorpan_> hasather: html5 has
175. # [01:23] <hasather> ahh, yea
176. # [01:23] <Hixie> Philip`: (yt = are You There)
177. # [01:23] <Hixie> Philip`: these scripts are awesome
178. # [01:23] <Philip`> Oh, right
179. # [01:23] <Dashiva> I usually go for 'syn' or 'ping' rather than 'yt'
180. # [01:23] <Philip`> Yes, I'm here :-)
181. # [01:24] <Hixie> Philip`: do you mind licensing them under the Apache License 2.0 so that i can check them into http://code.google.com/p/html5/ ?
182. # [01:24] <Lachy> what's 'syn'?
183. # [01:24] <hasather> synchronize
184. # [01:24] <Hixie> Lachy: tcp connection packet
185. # [01:24] <Hixie> response would be syn/ack
186. # [01:24] <hasather> and then ack
187. # [01:24] <Hixie> but if someone else says "ack" or "syn/ack" first, the connection breaks
188. # [01:24] <Hixie> so i prefer yt :-P
189. # [01:24] <Lachy> Hixie, why does that use the apache licence instead of MIT?
190. # [01:25] <Philip`> Hixie: I'd be happy with that
191. # [01:25] <Hixie> Lachy: google prefers the apache lincense
192. # [01:25] <Hixie> Philip`: cool
193. # [01:25] <Hixie> Philip`: do you have a gmail account?
194. # [01:25] <Philip`> Hixie: I do
195. # [01:25] <Lachy> oh, I wonder why. It's GPL incompatible
196. # [01:26] * Joins: sverreb (n=sverreb@cEB9001C3.dhcp.bluecom.no)
197. # [01:26] <Hixie> probably because the people who made the decision is on the apache board
198. # [01:26] <Hixie> but that's another story :-)
199. # [01:27] <Hixie> Philip`: added you to the members of the group
200. # [01:27] * Lachy wonders when he got added to that project.
201. # [01:27] <Hixie> Philip`: and checked the code in
202. # [01:28] <Hixie> Lachy: i added everyone whose gmail address i knew who i thought could even remotely be helpful
203. # [01:28] <Hixie> :-)
204. # [01:28] <Hixie> Philip`: how do i run the script? (where do i have to put html5lib?)
205. # [01:28] <Lachy> when was the project started?
206. # [01:29] <Hixie> a while back
207. # [01:29] <Hixie> how do you make python use the arguments passed to it?
208. # [01:29] <Lachy> would have been nice if I were notified about it :-)
209. # [01:30] <Philip`> Hixie: Okay, thanks!
210. # [01:31] <Hixie> hm i'm gonna have to hack this to work on the site
211. # [01:31] <Philip`> Hmm, I think you could rename the html5lib project's "src" directory to "html5lib" and stick it in the same place as the scripts that use it (if you can't just install it normally)
212. # [01:31] <Hixie> since i don't need things like the non-relative uris
213. # [01:31] <Hixie> Philip`: k
214. # [01:31] <KevinMarks> what are you hosting the python with?
215. # [01:32] <Philip`> Hopefully you've got Python 2.5, else some bits will probably need to be rewritten
216. # [01:32] <hasather> Hixie: arguments is in a list: sys.argv
217. # [01:32] <hasather> sys.argv[0] is the name of the program
218. # [01:33] <Hixie> cool
219. # [01:33] <hasather> and you have to import sys of course: import sys
220. # [01:33] <Hixie> i have 22.2, 2.3, and .4 it seems
221. # [01:34] <Philip`> Oh - if you can extrapolate those versions, it'll work fine
222. # [01:34] <Hixie> er, 2.2, 2.3, and 2.4
223. # [01:34] <Hixie> not sure why that two ended up in the wrong place
224. # [01:35] <Philip`> Otherwise it'll probably complain obviously about "x for y in z" type stuff
225. # [01:35] <Hixie> ah
226. # [01:35] <Hixie> well we'll see
227. # [01:36] * Joins: aroben (i=adamrobe@nat/apple/x-22b22c80e98b70c6)
228. # [01:37] * Quits: aroben (i=adamrobe@nat/apple/x-22b22c80e98b70c6) (Remote closed the connection)
229. # [01:37] <deltab> someone's asking if it's necessary to be an invited expert to get on the HTML WG mailing list
230. # [01:38] <deltab> I'm not sure of the answer
231. # [01:38] <Philip`> You can read the archives and post without being a member at all
232. # [01:38] <deltab> thanks
233. # [01:38] <zcorpan_> you can't subscribe though, aiui
234. # [01:39] <Philip`> (Responding from the archives messes up the threading a bit, though)
235. # [01:39] <Hixie> you can become an invited expert really really easily
236. # [01:39] <Hixie> just by following the steps to join the list basically
237. # [01:39] <Hixie> you don't have to be "invited" nor an "expect"
238. # [01:39] <Hixie> expert
239. # [01:39] <Lachy> Philip`, the reply link in the archive has the right fields in it to keep threading working
240. # [01:40] <Lachy> you just need to be using a decent mail client
241. # [01:40] * Quits: a-ja (n=chatzill@adsl-70-237-142-180.dsl.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net) ("Chatzilla 0.9.73-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9a1/2006042715]")
242. # [01:40] <Lachy> I think it's really weird that you can post without agreeing to the patent policy, but can't subscribe
243. # [01:41] <Philip`> I think it nearly worked, except the outgoing message had "References: %3Cp06240609c242b8eadd32@[192.168.0.101]%3E" and I think the %3C/%3E shouldn't be there
244. # [01:41] <Lachy> oh, they should have been unescaped
245. # [01:42] <Philip`> The mailto: link in the archives seems to double-escape them - it has "mailto:...%253C..."
246. # [01:42] <Lachy> oh, then the archive is broken and should be patched
247. # [01:43] <othermaciej> http://five-gt-two.spreadshirt.com/
248. # [01:43] <othermaciej> I managed to turn off passing myself
249. # [01:43] <othermaciej> does the design seem ok?
250. # [01:43] <zcorpan_> arial?
251. # [01:43] <zcorpan_> or is it helvetica?
252. # [01:44] <othermaciej> that's arial, since they had support for that built-in and saved me the need to make my own EPS artwork with helvetica
253. # [01:44] <zcorpan_> is it on both the front and the back?
254. # [01:45] <Lachy> zcorpan_, there's preview photos that show all sides
255. # [01:45] <othermaciej> it's only on the front I think
256. # [01:46] <zcorpan_> it is
257. # [01:47] <zcorpan_> looks good
258. # [01:47] <zcorpan_> is it the whatwg green?
259. # [01:47] <Lachy> doesn't look like it is
260. # [01:48] <zcorpan_> would be nice if it was
261. # [01:48] <Lachy> oh, maybe it should have been "5 > 2?"
262. # [01:48] <othermaciej> there's a limited number of colors available
263. # [01:49] <zcorpan_> Lachy: why the "?"?
264. # [01:49] <Lachy> the WHATWG logo
265. # [01:49] <Lachy> I don't there theres a ? in a circle available
266. # [01:49] <deltab> are Unicode combining characters supported?
267. # [01:50] <Lachy> ?⃝
268. # [01:50] <Lachy> they are in XChat
269. # [01:50] <Philip`> That site looks quite like it's got unescaped user input in its title element. I think some should make a T-shirt called </title><style>*{text-decoration:blink}</style>
270. # [01:50] <Philip`> *someone
271. # [01:51] <deltab> there's one with <body> on the front and </body> on the back
272. # [01:52] * Joins: SimonW (n=simon@dyn-62-56-110-65.dslaccess.co.uk)
273. # [01:52] <Lachy> yeah, I've been thinking about getting that one from Remo with my voucher that I won
274. # [01:53] <Lachy> http://remo.com.au/online/tshirts_item.cfm?PLU=1104
275. # [01:56] <othermaciej> I think I will leave off the whatwg logo because (a) I am lazy and (b) it's more subtle this way
276. # [01:56] <Philip`> Hixie: Sorry, Freenode doesn't like me sending private messages while unregistered - I'll try to fix that, but in the meantime: That's http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/issues/detail?id=33
277. # [01:56] <Hixie> aah
278. # [01:56] <Hixie> cood
279. # [01:56] <Hixie> cool even
280. # [01:56] <Hixie> ok who can i blame who works on html5lib :-)
281. # [01:57] <Philip`> I believe jgraham said he didn't get that error, but I'm not sure what the difference is
282. # [01:57] * Joins: karlUshi (n=karl@dhcp-246-23.mag.keio.ac.jp)
283. # [01:57] * Lachy is wondering if he should explain 5>2 to people asking on twitter
284. # [01:59] <Hixie> Philip`: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/xml-sig/2004-May/010252.html seems relevant
285. # [01:59] * Quits: Voluminous (n=Volumino@unaffiliated/voluminous) (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
286. # [02:01] <Hixie> wow, html5lib takes a long time to parse the spec
287. # [02:02] <Lachy> I wonder how it could be optomised?
288. # [02:02] <deltab> even Czech C code takes a couple of seconds to handle that much
289. # [02:03] <Lachy> how long did it take?
290. # [02:04] * Joins: mw22 (n=chatzill@guest-228.mountainview.mozilla.com)
291. # [02:04] <Lachy> It's funny how, in response to the lack of support for data: URIs in IE, people propose new ideas that are equally unsupported
292. # [02:04] <Hixie> (about 19s on this machine)
293. # [02:07] <Hixie> and yes, this is a recurring pattern
294. # [02:07] <Hixie> it baffles me
295. # [02:07] <Philip`> I think this works around that html5lib problem:
296. # [02:07] <Philip`> import xml.dom.minidom
297. # [02:07] <Philip`> import html5lib
298. # [02:07] <Philip`> parser = html5lib.html5parser.HTMLParser(tree=html5lib.treebuilders.dom.TreeBuilder)
299. # [02:07] <Philip`> doc = parser.parse(open('current-work'), encoding='utf-8')
300. # [02:07] <Philip`> doc.removeChild(doc.firstChild) # remove the doctype, else html5lib's doc.cloneNode dies
301. # [02:07] <Philip`> head = doc.documentElement.getElementsByTagName('head')[0]
302. # [02:07] <Philip`> head.insertBefore(doc.createElement('meta'), head.firstChild).setAttribute('charset', 'UTF-8')
303. # [02:07] <Philip`> ...as a replacement for the top of the file
304. # [02:07] <Philip`> Er, then you can get rid of that xml.dom.minidom line too
305. # [02:07] <Hixie> oh the problem is the doctype?
306. # [02:07] <othermaciej> Lachy: asking on twitter where?
307. # [02:07] <Philip`> I think so - the problem seems to be triggered when you clone a node which has a doctype thingy as a child
308. # [02:07] <Lachy> othermaciej, http://twitter.com/DmitryBaranovskiy
309. # [02:07] <Lachy> I decided to respond
310. # [02:07] <Philip`> (You can clone the xml.dom.minidom.DocumentType itself, but not a xml.dom.minidom.Document which contains it)
311. # [02:07] <Lachy> http://twitter.com/Lachy
312. # [02:08] <Hixie> Philip`: must be a bug in minidom, the TreeBuilder code looks correct to me
313. # [02:08] <Hixie> anyway removing the doctype is fine
314. # [02:09] <othermaciej> dammit, do I have to be on Twitter now to be cool?
315. # [02:09] <Hixie> no
316. # [02:10] * Quits: KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
317. # [02:10] <Philip`> The doctype gets added back in later, via string concatenation in html5Serializer because I couldn't be bothered to figure out the proper way of doing it...
318. # [02:10] <Hixie> though if you are, make sure to add "WHATWG" as your friend
319. # [02:10] <Hixie> the whatwg spec checkin script automatically twitters the checkin message
320. # [02:10] <Hixie> Philip`: yeah
321. # [02:10] <Lachy> othermaciej, being on twitter won't make you cool, but it's where all the cool kids hang out these days :-)
322. # [02:12] * Parts: hasather (n=hasather@81-235-209-174-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
323. # [02:13] <ianloic> twitter was cool a year ago
324. # [02:13] <ianloic> when it was twttr
325. # [02:13] * Lachy only found out about twitter a few weeks ago
326. # [02:13] <ianloic> its definitely one of those technologies that falls apart when too many people start using it
327. # [02:14] * Joins: KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-77f405985c58bd2c)
328. # [02:14] <ianloic> it jumped the shark when it got a short-code
329. # [02:14] <othermaciej> ianloic: so you liked their early stuff?
330. # [02:15] <ianloic> othermaciej, I liked it when it was just me and a few friends :)
331. # [02:15] <KevinMarks> so L is 42" chest?
332. # [02:16] <Hixie> well that was weird
333. # [02:16] * zcorpan_ ordered a white one
334. # [02:16] <Hixie> i saw that twitter had spoken, went to have a look, and it was my script twittering
335. # [02:16] <Hixie> how confusing
336. # [02:17] <Lachy> Hixie, I thought it was supposed to post the description from the SVN check in, just just a generic "updated the spec... " message
337. # [02:17] <Hixie> two scripts
338. # [02:17] <othermaciej> KevinMarks: they are American Apparel sizes, might be size info on the AA site
339. # [02:17] <Hixie> ./.update.sh says the message you just got
340. # [02:17] <Hixie> ./.commit.pl says the checkin message
341. # [02:18] <Lachy> does update.sh generate the spec from source?
342. # [02:18] <othermaciej> KevinMarks: L is 42-44" chest
343. # [02:18] <Philip`> The link to the multiple-page version is wrong
344. # [02:18] <Hixie> yes
345. # [02:18] <Philip`> ("extract" probably isn't a great name - I'm not sure why I ever called it that)
346. # [02:18] <Hixie> what should we call it?
347. # [02:18] <Philip`> Also the annotations are missing, since it'll be looking for annotate-data.xml in that directory
348. # [02:19] <Hixie> yeah just fixed that
349. # [02:19] <Hixie> (not updated yet)
350. # [02:19] <zcorpan_> M2 stopped working when i upgraded to opera 9.20. the error console keeps poping up saying "Error from server: -ERR bad command g1pf2579637muf. Did you change your password?"
351. # [02:19] <Philip`> Maybe something like "multi"?
352. # [02:20] <Hixie> i just independently called it multipage
353. # [02:20] * Quits: kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-187-033.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
354. # [02:20] <Philip`> Could the Twitter message link to the multipage version, so unsuspecting link-followers don't have their browser explode?
355. # [02:21] <Hixie> sure
356. # [02:24] <Hixie> oops
357. # [02:24] <Hixie> misfire
358. # [02:24] <Hixie> let's try again
359. # [02:24] <Lachy> hmm. So far there have been no other nominees for spec editor in the HTMLWG, which seems a bit unfair if there is to be an election
360. # [02:25] <Hixie> we're having an election?
361. # [02:25] <Lachy> don't know
362. # [02:25] <Hixie> as far as i can tell me being editor was part of the package of getting the whatwg spec
363. # [02:25] * Quits: csarven (n=nevrasc@modemcable081.152-201-24.mc.videotron.ca)
364. # [02:25] <Lachy> that's up to the chairs, I guess
365. # [02:26] * Joins: csarven (n=nevrasc@modemcable081.152-201-24.mc.videotron.ca)
366. # [02:27] <Lachy> just the way you keep saying things like "If the HTML WG adopts the draft and me as editor" makes it seem like there's a remote possibility for someone else
367. # [02:27] <Hixie> well i don't want to presume
368. # [02:28] <Lachy> I know, but I think it's a fairly safe assumption
369. # [02:32] <Hixie> Philip`, your script is awesometastic
370. # [02:32] <Philip`> Whoops, I think the single-page spec got Opera stuck in an infinite loop
371. # [02:32] <othermaciej> so far, I don't think anyone else has been nominated as editor
372. # [02:33] <othermaciej> or volunteered
373. # [02:33] <deltab> could the twitter message include the log comment?
374. # [02:33] <Hixie> it does, when it's a checkin
375. # [02:33] <Hixie> the messages you got weren't checkins
376. # [02:33] <deltab> ah
377. # [02:34] <Philip`> (It's reading the length of cache4\opr11VRW.htm twenty five thousand times per second, for the past few minutes, which I think is not intentional behaviour...)
378. # [02:35] <deltab> it doesn't believe how big the file is :-)
379. # [02:35] * Disconnected
380. # [02:36] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
381. # [02:36] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
382. # [02:36] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
383. # [02:36] * Set by Hixie on Tue Apr 03 04:10:22
384. # [02:36] * Parts: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@84-216-42-112.sprayadsl.telenor.se)
385. # [02:36] * Quits: krijnh (n=krijnhoe@ktk.xs4all.nl) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
386. # [02:36] <Philip`> Hixie: Looks good to me now :-)
387. # [02:36] <Hixie> :-)
388. # [02:37] <Hixie> feel free to post to the html list telling people your script has been incorporated into the whatwg pipeline
389. # [02:37] * Joins: yod (n=ot@dhcp-246-8.mag.keio.ac.jp)
390. # [02:37] <Lachy> post it to both whatwg and public-html so everyone knows
391. # [02:39] * Joins: csarven- (n=nevrasc@modemcable081.152-201-24.mc.videotron.ca)
392. # [02:40] <Philip`> Looks like the tabs/spaces got a bit mangled in the version in SVN - I really should try to remember how to set my editor to do spaces all the time...
393. # [02:40] <Hixie> i changed a bunch to spaces
394. # [02:40] <Hixie> maybe not all
395. # [02:40] <Hixie> so that was probably my fault
396. # [02:41] <Philip`> Only the bits at the top got changed - the rest are still tabs, so Python might get a bit confused
397. # [02:44] <Hixie> seems to work ok :-)
398. # [02:48] * moeffju is now known as moeffju[ZzZz]
399. # [02:57] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-187-033.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
400. # [02:58] <Philip`> Hixie: Do you delete the old multipage/*.html files before adding the new ones, so that stale links will become 404s instead of giving out-of-date content?
401. # [02:58] <Hixie> yes
402. # [03:01] <Philip`> Ah, good
403. # [03:02] <Philip`> (That's the step that I always forget, and it always confuses me about why I'm not seeing any changes I've made...)
404. # [03:02] <Hixie> heh
405. # [03:06] * Quits: csarven (n=nevrasc@modemcable081.152-201-24.mc.videotron.ca) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
406. # [03:11] <Lachy> why would you need to delete old versions? Wouldn't the updated versions just replace them, keeping the same file names?\
407. # [03:12] <Philip`> Sometimes the section IDs will change, so the filenames will change
408. # [03:12] <Lachy> ah, but changing IDs and filenames breaks links
409. # [03:14] <Philip`> Yep, and it's better not to leave dead link targets around when they're not being updated by the script any more
410. # [03:15] <Lachy> yeah, ideally links shouldn't change, though that's probably unavoidable with the spec being edited so much
411. # [03:17] <Philip`> It's using the IDs of the <hx> elements, which I believe are generated automatically from the textual content of the headings, so just changing a heading will break the links
412. # [03:18] * Quits: KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-77f405985c58bd2c) ("The computer fell asleep")
413. # [03:21] * Joins: htmlr (n=cjb@203-206-237-84.dyn.iinet.net.au)
414. # [03:26] <othermaciej> HTML5 proposal made it to daringfireball: http://daringfireball.net/linked/2007/april#wed-11-html5
415. # [03:31] <Dashiva> - The correct answer to this offer is “Yes.”
416. # [03:32] <Dashiva> That's cheating!
417. # [03:32] <Hixie> i love how even AFTER philip wrote the script to split the spec and i merged it with the pipeline, people are still asking for the spec to be split
418. # [03:32] <Hixie> maybe, just maybe, if they did it themselves when they wanted it like philip did, we wouldn't have had to wait so long to have a split spec
419. # [03:33] <Dashiva> The w3c doesn't stain its hands with implementations ;)
420. # [03:35] <Hixie> that particular guy was complaining about this in the whatwg list a few months ago
421. # [03:36] <Lachy> Hixie, Mike Schinkel?
422. # [03:36] <Hixie> yeah
423. # [03:36] * Lachy is ignoring him
424. # [03:36] <Philip`> It's not like it takes that much longer to implement than to complain about - it's just using someone else's code to do the hard stuff like parsing HTML, then twiddling bits of DOM
425. # [03:37] <Hixie> right, dinner
426. # [03:37] <Hixie> bbl
427. # [03:41] * Joins: mw22_ (n=chatzill@guest-228.mountainview.mozilla.com)
428. # [03:50] <Philip`> (It's still failing to load annotate-data.xml - it'd probably be nice to either make that file available, or remove the script that tries to include it on every page (via the two page_body.appendChild(script.cloneNode(True)) lines))
429. # [03:54] * Quits: Dashiva (i=Dashiva@v035b.studby.ntnu.no)
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432. # [04:04] <othermaciej> I love that people are now taking the design principles document as having some kind of substantive force when we just kinda made it up
433. # [04:04] <Philip`> (Just noticed one spec change that will break the page links: s/Auxillary/Auxiliary/)
434. # [04:07] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@124-168-27-56.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Connection reset by peer)
435. # [04:08] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@124-168-27-56.dyn.iinet.net.au)
436. # [04:13] <Hixie> i thought annotate-data.xml was available
437. # [04:13] <Hixie> what did i break
438. # [04:13] <Hixie> oh i know
439. # [04:13] <Hixie> there, should work now
440. # [04:15] * Quits: bzed (n=bzed@dslb-084-059-119-088.pools.arcor-ip.net) ("Leaving")
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449. # [06:44] <Hixie> vote: addCuePoint() or addCueMark()?
450. # [06:44] <Hixie> or something else altogether
451. # [06:45] <othermaciej> brain not functional enough to have opinion
452. # [06:46] <Hixie> also should it take an EventListener, a TimeoutHandler, or a Function (where Function is something I'd have to define)
453. # [06:47] <othermaciej> probably not an EventListener
454. # [06:47] <othermaciej> how is TimeoutHandler defined right now?
455. # [06:48] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-timers.html#timeouthandler
456. # [06:48] <othermaciej> probably a no-arg function is fine, since you can check currentTime
457. # [06:48] <Hixie> k
458. # [06:48] <othermaciej> TimeoutHandler would be ok I guess, though the extra args thing that setTimeout does is a little weird
459. # [06:51] <Hixie> or addCuePoint() could just cause an event to be fired
460. # [06:51] <Hixie> but that seems silly
461. # [06:51] <Hixie> from an authoring standpoint
462. # [06:52] <othermaciej> yeah
463. # [07:01] * Joins: marcosc (n=chatzill@131.181.148.226)
464. # [07:23] <Hixie> hmm
465. # [07:23] <Hixie> are the update twitters useful?
466. # [07:23] <Hixie> I'm thinking maybe not
467. # [07:23] <Hixie> the checkin twitters presumably are
468. # [07:23] <Lachy> Hixie, no, only the checkins
469. # [07:23] <Hixie> ok, i'll dump them then
470. # [07:24] <Hixie> i've also made the checkin script not bother twittering for purely editorial stuff
471. # [07:25] <mpt> Hixie, http://googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=%22cue+point%22&word2=%22cue+mark%22
472. # [07:27] <Hixie> good good
473. # [07:29] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-video.html#cue-points
474. # [07:38] <Lachy> Hixie, thanks for setting up whatwg.org/html5 - that's much easier to type!
475. # [07:38] <Hixie> :-)
476. # [07:39] <Lachy> /wf2 might be useful too for web forms
477. # [07:39] <Hixie> added, but i don't expect to do anything to wf2 until we merge the two
478. # [07:40] <Lachy> yeah, but just incase I need to look somthing up in it
479. # [07:49] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=Snak@h-68-164-93-9.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net)
480. # [07:58] <Hixie> wow, i'm down to only two things to do for media
481. # [07:58] <Hixie> namely, try to work out whether video.error should be an object, and adding a security section.
482. # [07:59] * Quits: aroben (n=adamrobe@adsl-70-231-237-176.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net)
483. # [08:01] <othermaciej> as soon as you are done, I'll likely have to re-review comparing to the Apple version
484. # [08:01] <othermaciej> and bring up some of the issues from our leftovers section
485. # [08:01] <othermaciej> like (whee) metadata
486. # [08:01] <Hixie> you can start now if you want
487. # [08:02] <Hixie> the two things i have left are working out what to do with error objects (do you want an object or is the code enough?) and the security section, which i'll do last
488. # [08:02] <Hixie> since i need to make sure i've taken care of security issues before i can write about how i've taken care of them
489. # [08:02] <Hixie> and i can't take care of them before i've finished adding features
490. # [08:10] <KevinMarks> QT can give you a nice long list of error codes...
491. # [08:11] <othermaciej> I think an error object is a better idea
492. # [08:11] <othermaciej> more reasonable to extend, and there is little value to keeping the error representation lightweight
493. # [08:30] <Hixie> ok, it's an object now.
494. # [08:33] <Hixie> ok, also added a dummy section for security
495. # [08:33] <Hixie> so that's it as far as i'm concerned for v2 of the media object
496. # [08:36] <othermaciej> ok, I'm planning time for review
497. # [08:36] <othermaciej> though I also need to squeeze some coding time in
498. # [08:37] <Hixie> :-)
499. # [08:38] <Hixie> if you look at the <!----> comments in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-video.html#media (search for 'v3') you'll see what _isn't_ included in this version yet
500. # [08:38] <othermaciej> I need to hassle the Apple folks who were supposed write up accessibility
501. # [08:38] <othermaciej> and I have a speclet bit to write up myself
502. # [08:38] <Hixie> (which includes captions and metadata)
503. # [08:40] * Joins: SimonW (n=simon@dyn-62-56-110-65.dslaccess.co.uk)
504. # [08:43] <KevinMarks> chapters?
505. # [08:43] <Hixie> that's part of metadata
506. # [08:49] <KevinMarks> jolly good
507. # [08:55] * Hixie kills the Audio() API and replaces it with HTMLAudioElement
508. # [09:04] <Hixie> removed an entire section.
509. # [09:05] <Hixie> yum.
510. # [09:30] <hsivonen> Lachy: Re: Apace vs. MIT: the Apache License 2.0 has an explicit patent grant. The MIT license does not. This is both the reason to prefer the Apache license and, due to the GPLv2 compatibility issue, prefer the MIT license
511. # [09:30] * Quits: karlUshi (n=karl@dhcp-246-23.mag.keio.ac.jp) ("Where dwelt Ymir, or wherein did he find sustenance?")
512. # [09:32] * Quits: yod (n=ot@dhcp-246-8.mag.keio.ac.jp) ("Leaving")
513. # [09:40] <Lachy> hsivonen, is the Apache licence still incompatible with GPLv3?
514. # [09:42] <othermaciej> how is the GPL incompatible w/ a license including a patent grant?
515. # [09:42] <othermaciej> Hixie: no 'new Audio' API for compatibitlity?
516. # [09:42] <othermaciej> er
517. # [09:42] <othermaciej> for convenience?
518. # [09:42] <Lachy> othermaciej, http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/license-list.html lists it as incompatible
519. # [09:42] <Hixie> othermaciej: yeah, it's there
520. # [09:43] <Lachy> I think it's because GPL requires no other restrictions to be imposed beyond those in GPL
521. # [09:52] <hsivonen> othermaciej: GPLv2 isn't compatible with licenses that have an explicit patent grant
522. # [09:53] <hsivonen> othermaciej: oh. I misread you. What Lachy said.
523. # [09:54] <hsivonen> Lachy: my understanding is that it is a goal to draft GPLv3 so that Apache License 2.0 is compatible. I don't know the current status of that compat effort.
524. # [09:54] <Lachy> ok
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529. # [10:39] <Hixie> i love "[discussion of how public WGs will and should operate]"
530. # [10:39] <Hixie> there's some irony to the fact that the discussion of how a public group should operate wasn't minuted.
531. # [10:40] <Lachy> :-)
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534. # [10:45] <a-ja> hi all. <aside> is supposed to allow a <header>, isn't it?
535. # [10:46] <hsivonen> a-ja: it isn't
536. # [10:46] <hsivonen> doh
537. # [10:46] <hsivonen> yes. header can be a descendant of aside
538. # [10:46] <Lachy> wow, "By the way, the next XHTML 1.* issue will be number 10,000!". With that many issues, you'd think they'd have fixed something ;-/
539. # [10:47] <hsivonen> but a aside cannot be an descendant of header
540. # [10:47] * hsivonen should wake up some more before misreading more questions
541. # [10:47] <a-ja> hsivonen: yep...that's what i'd expect
542. # [10:48] <a-ja> heh...that too :)
543. # [10:50] * a-ja should get some shuteye before asking any more....but what the heck
544. # [10:51] <a-ja> hsivonen: you'll fixup the conformance checker to allow header descendant of aside?
545. # [10:55] <hsivonen> a-ja: it doesn't now?
546. # [10:56] <hsivonen> a-ja: did you mix inline and <header>?
547. # [10:56] <a-ja> nope....style descendant seems to be ok though
548. # [10:57] <hsivonen> aside.inner =
549. # [10:57] <hsivonen> ( style.elem*
550. # [10:57] <hsivonen> , common.inner.bimorphic
551. # [10:57] <hsivonen> )
552. # [10:57] <hsivonen> a-ja: test case?
553. # [10:57] <a-ja> i have a <p> after the header
554. # [10:58] <a-ja> http://a-ja.net/html5-sections.html
555. # [10:59] <annevk> you are overdoing the <header> thing though
556. # [10:59] * Joins: bzed (n=bzed@dslb-084-059-099-095.pools.arcor-ip.net)
557. # [10:59] <annevk> o sorry, it's a test :)
558. # [10:59] * annevk should wake up too
559. # [11:00] <hsivonen> a-ja: you wrote heading instead of header
560. # [11:01] <a-ja> doh!
561. # [11:02] <hsivonen> http://hsivonen.iki.fi/validator/html5/?doc=http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/header-in-aside.html
562. # [11:04] <a-ja> it was bad enough before when i tried using a <h> elements in CSS
563. # [11:05] * a-ja knows that's heresy!
564. # [11:06] <a-ja> on that night.....off for some zzzzzzzzzzzzz's
565. # [11:06] * Parts: a-ja (n=chatzill@adsl-70-237-142-180.dsl.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net) ("5>2")
566. # [11:06] * Joins: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@84-216-43-114.sprayadsl.telenor.se)
567. # [11:11] <annevk> http://twitter.com/WHATWG/statuses/25578381
568. # [11:14] <Lachy> I wonder how many of those shirts have sold so far. othermaciej, are those stats available?
569. # [11:29] <annevk> Lachy, how fast do they deliver to AU?
570. # [11:30] <Lachy> don't know, but probably not fast enough
571. # [11:30] <annevk> k
572. # [11:30] <zcorpan_> hm. today i my inbox was filled with emails that i have sent to others. but no other emails. :S
573. # [11:30] <Lachy> it'd probably take at least a week if they're shipping from the US
574. # [11:30] <annevk> well, I'll have to wait a few weeks then until I have my credit cards back
575. # [11:30] <annevk> zcorpan_, you spammer
576. # [11:31] <zcorpan_> i don't get it
577. # [11:31] <Lachy> zcorpan_, consider yourself lucky
578. # [11:31] <zcorpan_> lol
579. # [11:31] <Lachy> but you should have at least got some from public-html
580. # [11:31] <zcorpan_> yeah
581. # [11:31] <Lachy> and whatwg
582. # [11:32] <Lachy> woah, 34 messages on whatwg since midnight!
583. # [11:32] <zcorpan_> i have them on gmail.com. but opera says no new messages
584. # [11:33] <zcorpan_> should i reinstall opera?
585. # [11:33] <annevk> neh
586. # [11:33] <annevk> POP? IMAP?
587. # [11:33] <zcorpan_> pop
588. # [11:33] <annevk> dunno about that
589. # [11:33] <Lachy> and 68 on public-html!
590. # [11:34] <zcorpan_> Lachy: midnight UTC?
591. # [11:34] <Lachy> no, midnight my time
592. # [11:34] <zcorpan_> ok
593. # [11:34] <Lachy> UTC+10
594. # [11:34] <annevk> hit check/send a few times...
595. # [11:34] <zcorpan_> annevk: done that
596. # [11:34] <zcorpan_> "no messages received or sent"
597. # [11:34] <annevk> does it connect to the server?
598. # [11:34] <zcorpan_> yes
599. # [11:35] <zcorpan_> "connected"
600. # [11:35] <zcorpan_> i can send emails
601. # [11:35] <Lachy> try recreating your profile or something. That's what I do when FF and TB screw up badly
602. # [11:35] <zcorpan_> ok
603. # [11:35] <annevk> sometimes this works
604. # [11:35] <zcorpan_> won't my emails and their labels go away then though?
605. # [11:36] <annevk> tools -> mail and chat accounts -> edit your account -> servers -> add a space after the server name and try again
606. # [11:36] <annevk> I don't really encounter that problem with Opera 9.2 anymore but maybe it helps
607. # [11:36] <zcorpan_> same
608. # [11:36] <Lachy> ooh, 9.2's been released?
609. # [11:36] * Lachy goes to upgrde
610. # [11:37] <annevk> hah, and I'm joking. I'm using Opera 9.1
611. # [11:37] <annevk> but 9.2 has indeed been released
612. # [11:37] <zcorpan_> this started when i installed 9.2 i think
613. # [11:40] * annevk goes back to reading the HTML5 changelog
614. # [11:42] <Lachy> the new Opera speed dial looks interesting
615. # [11:44] * Parts: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@84-216-43-114.sprayadsl.telenor.se)
616. # [11:50] * Joins: hasather (n=hasather@81-235-209-174-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
617. # [11:54] * Joins: SuitCase (n=SuitCase@c211-30-222-8.belrs2.nsw.optusnet.com.au)
618. # [11:55] <SuitCase> oh no! html5 is going to take over the world now?
619. # [11:56] <SuitCase> i am reading this interesting proposal to the w3c. it kinda makes me feel bad for the people who have seemingly spent so long on something that may end up irrelevant.
620. # [11:59] * Joins: ravenn (n=ravenn@203-206-240-219.dyn.iinet.net.au)
621. # [11:59] <Hixie> which ones? whatwg? rdf? xhtml2?
622. # [12:00] <SuitCase> xhtml2. i'm referring to this: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Apr/0429.html
623. # [12:01] <Hixie> right
624. # [12:02] * annevk notes that people worked hard and long on HTML5 too
625. # [12:02] <annevk> in fact, if you compare XHTML2 and HTML5... but lets not go there
626. # [12:03] <SuitCase> oh, sure, but html5 people are the cool kids that get all the recognition anyway.
627. # [12:03] <annevk> heh, you should read some comments on articles
628. # [12:04] <SuitCase> oh? this is just my perception.
629. # [12:05] * Quits: marcosc (n=chatzill@131.181.148.226) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
630. # [12:05] <annevk> See http://ajaxian.com/archives/proposal-for-the-w3c-to-adopt-html-5 for instance
631. # [12:06] <annevk> It has quite a big group of supporters too though, it varies per community
632. # [12:08] <annevk> (People opposing are also mostly flamebaits, which is encouraging.)
633. # [12:09] <SuitCase> that's interesting. thanks for the link.
634. # [12:12] <SuitCase> does it look like it will be successful? there seems to be little resistance from the w3c people there.
635. # [12:12] <annevk> it already is successful
636. # [12:12] <annevk> see <canvas> for instance
637. # [12:15] <SuitCase> well, i mean the specific proposal to have the w3c adopt the html5 spec in favour of xhtml.
638. # [12:15] <SuitCase> err.. instead of xhtml.
639. # [12:16] <annevk> HTML5 has an XML and HTML serialization
640. # [12:17] <hsivonen> SuitCase: well, since the W3C already established the new HTML WG, it is pretty clear that XHTML 2.0 is not the answer to the question that the new HTML WG is expected to answer
641. # [12:17] <annevk> XHTML1 also uses the semantics from HTML4
642. # [12:17] <annevk> I suppose many people don't really understand that
643. # [12:20] <annevk> The answer is pretty clear, we still don't get the question though :)
644. # [12:24] * moeffju[ZzZz] is now known as moeffju
645. # [12:24] <annevk> SimonW, how did your presentation go?
646. # [12:24] <SimonW> reasonably well
647. # [12:25] <SimonW> cramming the entire history of HTML / WHATWG in to 5 minutes was, in hindsight, a bit ambitious
648. # [12:25] <SimonW> but I think it got people interested / thinking, which is good
649. # [12:25] <SimonW> could have happily done 45 minutes
650. # [12:26] <SimonW> slides : http://simonwillison.net/2007/talks/oxford-html5/
651. # [12:27] <SuitCase> hsivonen: oh! i was not aware of this. guess i need to learn more about the spec process.
652. # [12:27] <Hixie> oh hey, SimonW is simon willison, didn't realise that
653. # [12:28] <Hixie> hey simon
654. # [12:28] <SimonW> hi Hixie
655. # [12:29] <SimonW> are you at XTech again this year?
656. # [12:32] <Hixie> nah
657. # [12:32] <Hixie> nice slides for your talk, btw
658. # [12:35] <SimonW> thanks
659. # [12:36] <Hixie> othermaciej, dude, you have to bring out your patent bat on the list again
660. # [12:37] <SimonW> I was going to use your diagram of IE building something that isn't a tree from a malformed DOM, but I had to drop it due to time constraints
661. # [12:38] * Parts: sverreb (n=sverreb@cEB9001C3.dhcp.bluecom.no)
662. # [12:44] <annevk> slides are nice
663. # [12:47] <annevk> btw, when I did performance testing long ago on Web Apps 1.0 it took 6 seconds or so... not 19
664. # [12:47] <annevk> either someone regressed it heavily or Web Apps became a lot larger :)
665. # [12:51] <Hixie> or the machine i'm using isn't as good as yours...
666. # [12:51] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@84-216-43-114.sprayadsl.telenor.se)
667. # [12:51] <Hixie> makes no sense to compare performance metrics on different machines
668. # [12:51] <Hixie> even on the same machine many factors can affec it
669. # [12:53] <annevk> yeah, fair enough
670. # [12:53] <annevk> some day we'll port the thing to C
671. # [12:54] <zcorpan> "Fetching messages (17/685)"
672. # [12:54] <zcorpan> after reinstall
673. # [12:55] <annevk> fancy
674. # [12:55] <zcorpan> i still have my bookmarks, that's nice
675. # [12:55] <zcorpan> not anything else though :|
676. # [12:57] <zcorpan> my feeds! sigh, how should i know which feeds i were subscribed to?
677. # [12:58] <zcorpan> hm, seems like my old profile is in another folder
678. # [13:02] * Parts: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@84-216-43-114.sprayadsl.telenor.se)
679. # [13:11] * Joins: Lachy_ (n=Lachlan@124-168-27-56.dyn.iinet.net.au)
680. # [13:22] * gsnedders now really wants 5 > 2 T-shirts
681. # [13:22] <gsnedders> :P
682. # [13:22] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@84-216-43-114.sprayadsl.telenor.se)
683. # [13:27] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@124-168-27-56.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Connection timed out)
684. # [13:27] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
685. # [13:29] * Quits: SuitCase (n=SuitCase@c211-30-222-8.belrs2.nsw.optusnet.com.au)
686. # [13:30] * Joins: SuitCase (n=SuitCase@c211-30-222-8.belrs2.nsw.optusnet.com.au)
687. # [13:33] * Joins: yod (n=ot@softbank221018155222.bbtec.net)
688. # [13:36] * Joins: Philip` (n=excors@zaynar.demon.co.uk)
689. # [13:38] <zcorpan> SimonW: i'll add your presentation to http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/HTML5_Presentations
690. # [13:39] <SimonW> thanks zcorpan
691. # [13:39] <SimonW> should be video of it up online in the next few days
692. # [13:40] <zcorpan> SimonW: you have a whatwg wiki account?
693. # [13:41] <SimonW> not yet
694. # [13:41] <zcorpan> was it presented today?
695. # [13:42] <SimonW> yesterday
696. # [13:42] <zcorpan> ok
697. # [13:42] <SimonW> (you should install the MediaWiki OpenID plugin)
698. # [13:42] <SimonW> creating an acconut...
699. # [13:44] <annevk> SimonW, pointer for that plugin? if it's easy to set up I'm sure Hixie will integrate it
700. # [13:44] <SimonW> I'm SimonW
701. # [13:44] <annevk> I believe DanC was willing to contribute as well if we had an OpenID login mechanism
702. # [13:44] <Hixie> surely openid would just make it easier for spammers
703. # [13:45] <Hixie> since they'd just have to set up an open authentication openid
704. # [13:45] <SimonW> http://www.openidenabled.com/software/mediawiki
705. # [13:45] <SimonW> yup, OpenID is great for spammers
706. # [13:45] <SimonW> but right now there's no captcha on the wiki account creation (is there?)
707. # [13:45] <SimonW> so shouldn't make a difference in practise
708. # [13:46] <Hixie> there's no captcha but there's some tricks going on behind the scenes to make it harder for them to log in and create an account
709. # [13:46] <Hixie> actually since we implemented those hacks i don't think we've had any spam at all (we used to have quite a lot)
710. # [13:46] <Hixie> or were the hacks we added just for the forums
711. # [13:46] <Hixie> i forget
712. # [13:46] <zcorpan> is "[[User:SimonW|Simon Willison]]" correct?
713. # [13:46] <SimonW> yup
714. # [13:46] <SimonW> OpenID users still have to create a wiki account when they use OpenID
715. # [13:47] <SimonW> the only difference is that they don't have to set Yet Another Password
716. # [13:47] <SimonW> so it might be compatible with the measures you have at the moment
717. # [13:47] <zcorpan> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/HTML5_Presentations
718. # [13:47] <annevk> Hixie, there was some spam, I wasn't sure how to undo it and such
719. # [13:47] <Hixie> i undo it when i see it
720. # [13:47] <SimonW> http://wikitravel.org/en/Main_Page has the OpenID thing installed (they developed it)
721. # [13:47] <Hixie> (i get mailed for every change to the wiki)
722. # [13:48] <annevk> http://wiki.whatwg.org/index.php?title=Category:Implementations&curid=1645&diff=2188&oldid=2096
723. # [13:48] <annevk> http://wiki.whatwg.org/index.php?title=User:Matthew_Raymond:dataentry_element&curid=734&diff=2186&oldid=786
724. # [13:48] <annevk> not sure they qualify as spam
725. # [13:48] <annevk> but they're not doing useful stuff
726. # [13:49] * Quits: SuitCase (n=SuitCase@c211-30-222-8.belrs2.nsw.optusnet.com.au)
727. # [13:49] <annevk> is Jarvklo online here?
728. # [13:50] <SimonW> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:OpenID looks like a better bet than that patch
729. # [13:50] <Hixie> annevk: weird
730. # [13:50] <Hixie> didn't get mailed for those either
731. # [13:50] <Hixie> wonder why not
732. # [13:52] <zcorpan> annevk: why?
733. # [13:52] <annevk> re: Talk:Changes from HTML4
734. # [13:54] <zcorpan> i could ask him to get in here
735. # [13:55] <annevk> i replied in the wiki
736. # [13:55] <annevk> Hixie, not going to bed today?
737. # [13:56] <Hixie> meh
738. # [13:56] * gsnedders realises the time in Hixie-land
739. # [13:56] * gsnedders used to live on 4 hours sleep without much issue
740. # [13:58] * Joins: karlUshi (n=karl@softbank221018155222.bbtec.net)
741. # [14:02] <zcorpan> wonder if i should make html5-elements link to the multipage version or not
742. # [14:02] <annevk> depends on how much work you want in mainting the thing
743. # [14:02] <annevk> maintaining*
744. # [14:03] <zcorpan> i'll leave it as is for now
745. # [14:04] <annevk> the multipage version is not yet ideal
746. # [14:04] <Philip`> zcorpan: If you do, it should be relatively straightforward to use the existing spec-splitter script to get the same ID -> filename mapping
747. # [14:05] <annevk> oh right, that makes sense
748. # [14:05] <zcorpan> Philip`: ok
749. # [14:06] <Hixie> annevk: if you want it improved, feel free to commit patches
750. # [14:06] <annevk> yeah, I was just thinking that I should shut up :)
751. # [14:06] <Hixie> :-D
752. # [14:06] <Hixie> i didn't mean that sarcasticly though
753. # [14:06] <Hixie> i mean, you've checked in patches before :-)
754. # [14:07] <Hixie> right well i really should sleep
755. # [14:07] <Hixie> nn
756. # [14:08] <zcorpan> g'night Hixie
757. # [14:08] <annevk> g'night
758. # [14:09] <virtuelv> ah, editing
759. # [14:09] <virtuelv> I'm on a slow track to make any spec editing 100x more useful from within my editor
760. # [14:16] * Parts: ravenn (n=ravenn@203-206-240-219.dyn.iinet.net.au)
761. # [14:17] <MikeSmith> virtuelv - hei
762. # [14:18] <virtuelv> MikeSmith: hey
763. # [14:18] <virtuelv> MikeSmith: you going to xtech?
764. # [14:18] <MikeSmith> yah
765. # [14:18] <annevk> MikeSmith, your former former employer joined the HTML WG
766. # [14:19] <MikeSmith> annevk - yep. Because I made them an offer they couldn't refuse :)
767. # [14:20] <MikeSmith> Christian Sejersen is a friend
768. # [14:20] <MikeSmith> he's the engineering manager for their client product dev group (which includes their browser)
769. # [14:21] <MikeSmith> an implementor
770. # [14:22] <MikeSmith> I don't know how much coding his does now, be he did a lot of hands-on work on their browser over the years
771. # [14:22] <annevk> i see
772. # [14:23] * Joins: jdandrea (n=jdandrea@ool-44c0a1fe.dyn.optonline.net)
773. # [14:23] <MikeSmith> virtuelv - we are doing this Gelocation BoF
774. # [14:24] <MikeSmith> http://2007.xtech.org/public/schedule/detail/222
775. # [14:25] <MikeSmith> about developing a standard scripting interface to location-sensing (GPS, etc.) capabilities on devices
776. # [14:26] <MikeSmith> you and Geir should please be there
777. # [14:28] <annevk> Geir is planning, it seems
778. # [14:29] <MikeSmith> annevk - great. Will be good to see him
779. # [14:30] <MikeSmith> annevk, virtuelv - other than you guys and Geir and Haakon, anybody else from Opera planning to be there?
780. # [14:30] <MikeSmith> gorm maybe?
781. # [14:31] <virtuelv> MikeSmith: dunno, perhaps p01
782. # [14:31] <MikeSmith> whoah
783. # [14:31] <MikeSmith> that'll be cool if he's there
784. # [14:31] * bzed is now known as bzed|afk
785. # [14:31] * MikeSmith misses #staff very very much
786. # [14:37] <annevk> do you need to register btw?
787. # [14:37] * annevk hasn't been busy much with XTech stuff yet
788. # [14:39] * Joins: ravenn (n=ravenn@203-206-240-219.dyn.iinet.net.au)
789. # [14:42] <MikeSmith> annevk - yeah, you need to register
790. # [14:44] <annevk> i believe last time I just went there and bought a ticket at the door
791. # [14:45] <MikeSmith> ah, yeah, I'm sure they'll be happy to do that
792. # [14:45] <MikeSmith> btw, no Reboot this year?
793. # [14:45] <annevk> can't come
794. # [14:45] <annevk> there will be one though
795. # [14:53] * Quits: ravenn (n=ravenn@203-206-240-219.dyn.iinet.net.au)
796. # [14:53] <Philip`> annevk: If you have ideas for improving the multipage version, it could be useful to write them down somewhere in case someone is bored enough to work on it again in the future :-)
797. # [14:54] <Philip`> (I'd at least like to merge some of the empty h2-level pages)
798. # [14:54] <Philip`> ((but I'm away for the next five days so I can't actually do anything now))
799. # [15:02] <annevk> 1. Empty pages. 2. Unstable links. 3. Ugly links.
800. # [15:02] <annevk> I suppose only 1 can be solved
801. # [15:02] <annevk> The others can probably be solved by getting stable header IDs
802. # [15:02] * bzed|afk is now known as bzed
803. # [15:12] <zcorpan> all emails read! phew
804. # [15:19] * Parts: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@84-216-43-114.sprayadsl.telenor.se)
805. # [15:24] * Joins: SuitCase (n=SuitCase@c211-30-222-8.belrs2.nsw.optusnet.com.au)
806. # [15:26] * Joins: jcgregorio (i=chatzill@nat/ibm/x-ec86632367d32040)
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808. # [15:47] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@84-216-43-114.sprayadsl.telenor.se)
809. # [15:52] <MikeSmith> http://www.reboot.dk/article-184-en.html
810. # [16:03] * Parts: html6 (n=html60@82.209.238.118)
811. # [16:08] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
812. # [16:11] * Parts: htmlr (n=cjb@203-206-237-84.dyn.iinet.net.au)
813. # [16:16] <annevk> from www-svg: "
814. # [16:16] <annevk> That said, unless the interfaces for working with HTML improve in its next version, I'm going to prefer to work with pure SVG, which has a much cleaner and more consistent API."
815. # [16:16] * Quits: csarven- (n=nevrasc@modemcable081.152-201-24.mc.videotron.ca) (Connection reset by peer)
816. # [16:17] <annevk> (signed by Doug Schepers)
817. # [16:17] * Joins: csarven (n=nevrasc@modemcable081.152-201-24.mc.videotron.ca)
818. # [16:17] * annevk isn't entirely sure what it means or implies
819. # [16:19] <hsivonen> annevk: which clients implement the pure svg apis?
820. # [16:20] <annevk> Opera and Adobe
821. # [16:20] <annevk> dunno how much Firefox does
822. # [16:20] <annevk> I'm not sure what definition of clean and consistent he's using though
823. # [16:21] <hsivonen> annevk: how does Opera reconcile legacy hhtml api impurities ? is svg contradictory ?
824. # [16:21] * Quits: karlUshi (n=karl@softbank221018155222.bbtec.net) ("Where dwelt Ymir, or wherein did he find sustenance?")
825. # [16:26] <annevk> no, it's just different
826. # [16:27] <annevk> i haven't paid much attention to it lately though
827. # [16:33] * Quits: met_ (n=Martin@b14-4.vscht.cz) ("Chemists never die, they just stop reacting.")
828. # [16:43] * Quits: jcgregorio (i=chatzill@nat/ibm/x-ec86632367d32040) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
829. # [16:45] * Joins: Charl (n=Charl@spotter.nmmu.ac.za)
830. # [16:56] * Joins: jcgregorio (i=chatzill@nat/ibm/x-39b96bd44d1bc833)
831. # [17:08] * Quits: yod (n=ot@softbank221018155222.bbtec.net) ("Leaving")
832. # [17:14] * zcorpan has to subscribe to hsivonen's rss feed as opposed to his atom feed, because opera doesn't show anything for the atom feed :(
833. # [17:15] <annevk> feel free to make a bug report :)
834. # [17:16] <zcorpan> you don't have one already?
835. # [17:17] <annevk> dunno
836. # [17:17] <annevk> I'm not up to date with our feed stuff
837. # [17:23] <zcorpan> #260205, used http://hsivonen.iki.fi/feed/atom/ as the test case
838. # [17:24] <annevk> cc'ed qa contact for those bugs
839. # [17:27] <Dashiva> Hmm... namespacing atom as non-default
840. # [18:00] * Quits: annevk (n=annevk@86.90.70.28) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
841. # [18:14] * Parts: jdandrea (n=jdandrea@ool-44c0a1fe.dyn.optonline.net)
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843. # [18:17] * Joins: annevk (n=annevk@5352CE6F.cable.casema.nl)
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853. # [18:57] <Dashiva> not very encouraging reading, that essay Chris wrote
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855. # [19:05] <zcorpan_> i still don't understand why we can't make the spec say whatever MS needs it to say in order to be compatible (e.g. <object classid>)
856. # [19:05] <zcorpan_> and <!doctype html5> triggers quirks mode in gecko and webkit, so can't be used
857. # [19:06] <Dashiva> The second word is supposed to be the root element, after all
858. # [19:06] <zcorpan_> e.g. the spec could define how classid works, but make activex optional or something
859. # [19:06] <zcorpan_> Dashiva: that's not the relevant part, although it is the reason why it triggers quirks mode
860. # [19:06] <Dashiva> All that aside, he didn't make a case for versioning the spec at all
861. # [19:06] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: are you goint to say that the doctype he proposed doesn't work?
862. # [19:07] <hsivonen> going
863. # [19:07] <zcorpan_> dunno
864. # [19:07] <hsivonen> (on the list, that is)
865. # [19:07] <zcorpan_> should i?
866. # [19:07] <Philip`> (Hmm, is it intentional that Firefox stays in standards mode even if you put up to 1024 minus sizeof(doctype) bytes of text in front of it?)
867. # [19:07] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: someone has to
868. # [19:07] <Dashiva> He wants IE versioning, not spec versioning. No matter the doctype, IE6 -> IE7 was on the same pages
869. # [19:07] * zcorpan_ responds then
870. # [19:08] <Dashiva> In conclusion, we want a <meta ie-support-version="5,6,7">
871. # [19:09] <Dashiva> Or rather, he wants it
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877. # [19:23] <Philip`> It seems he calls it "opt[ing] in to standards compliance", but it sounds like the proposal is more 'opting in to the behaviour of the oldest version of IE that I want my site to work correctly in'
878. # [19:24] <Philip`> Somebody needs to beat his "I think I win for longest post to this list so far" by replying with "+1" (or "-1") followed by quoting his entire message
879. # [19:26] <annevk> <!doctype html> should be the new IE opt in and we'll make damn sure (by means of thousands of tests) that they get it right
880. # [19:27] <annevk> but the browser sniffing is indeed a real pain
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882. # [19:28] <annevk> hey othermaciej!
883. # [19:28] <Philip`> Would the IE team be able to pass all the tests that they're given, rather than having to ship a half-finished IE$n by some fixed deadline? (I have no idea how flexible their release schedule is)
884. # [19:29] <annevk> if they ship frequently hpoefully authors don't rely on broken behavior too much
885. # [19:29] <annevk> that's how other browsers are able to fix their standards support anyway
886. # [19:30] <annevk> of course, our baseline is slightly better
887. # [19:31] <Philip`> Is that browser sniffing mostly on the client side, with the <!--[if gt IE 6]> type stuff? If so, they could circumvent that sniffing and get the same content as other browsers by just removing support for those conditional comments
888. # [19:33] <othermaciej> hi annevk
889. # [19:41] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: well, I pointed out that the doctype won't work
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892. # [19:44] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: ok
893. # [19:50] <hsivonen> hmm. I think the generic "solution" to the IE problem is <html bugs-as-of='2007-04-12'>
894. # [19:50] <Philip`> If HTML5 sticks with <!DOCTYPE html>, presumably HTML6 wouldn't be able to use a nice doctype and it'd have to do something ugly like <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "6"> or <!DOCTYPE html><html version="6">, which I suppose is one problem with not looking ahead to support whatever versioning HTML6 might need
895. # [19:51] <hsivonen> Philip`: how would it help if HTML5 was as ugly?
896. # [19:51] <Philip`> The HTML5 spec could say UAs must handle <!DOCTYPE html(\d+)> identically to <!DOCTYPE html>, though it'd still be non-conforming for authors
897. # [19:52] <Philip`> then at some point in the future, when all non-negligible UAs support HTML5, HTML7 can happily use <!DOCTYPE html7>
898. # [19:52] <zcorpan_> Philip`: <!doctype htmlx> still triggers quirks mode in gecko and webkit, so it will never be an option
899. # [19:52] <hsivonen> Philip`: and what would you do on the XML side?
900. # [19:53] <Philip`> zcorpan_: <!doctype html> still triggers quirks-like-mode in IE4 - but nobody cares, since it's too old and few people use it
901. # [19:54] <zcorpan_> Philip`: ie4 only has quirks mode
902. # [19:54] <zcorpan_> there's nothing we can do about ie4
903. # [19:55] * hsivonen notes that the HTML5 doctype triggers the quirks mode in legacy Geckos that have rickg's sniffing instead of dbaron's
904. # [19:55] <zcorpan_> true
905. # [19:56] <zcorpan_> ok, i get your point
906. # [19:56] <zcorpan_> but i don't see why it would be useful
907. # [19:56] <zcorpan_> we shouldn't encourage future revisions of html to introduce versioning
908. # [19:57] <Philip`> Hmm, I suppose the difference is that there's no way at all to get standards mode in IE4 (and IE5?), even with ugly version identifiers - whereas HTML7 could still get standards mode from FF2, if it kept using <!DOCTYPE html>, and so it's worthwhile even if approximately nobody uses FF2 that far in the future
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910. # [19:59] <Philip`> (and so it's not worth making HTML5 require support for <!DOCTYPE html7>, because HTML7 should still use <!DOCTYPE html> and if it really needs a version number then it can do something else)
911. # [20:00] <Philip`> (*something else which won't trigger quirks mode in ancient browsers like FF2)
912. # [20:00] <zcorpan_> indeed
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914. # [20:07] <zcorpan_> is it possible for other browser vendors to ship a browser with activex support?
915. # [20:08] <annevk> i'd think so
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920. # [20:14] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: only on Windows
921. # [20:14] <zcorpan_> ok
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923. # [20:20] <Philip`> http://plugindoc.mozdev.org/windows-all.html#ActiveX
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928. # [20:32] <zcorpan_> http://simon.html5.org/temp/Versioning%20and%20html[5].txt -- comments before i send it?
929. # [20:34] <Philip`> http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/04/12/152245 - in case anyone really likes reading comments sections [and hasn't found this already]
930. # [20:39] <hasather> zcorpan_: in the first paragraph, you have "doens't"
931. # [20:40] <zcorpan_> hasather: fixed
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933. # [20:48] <zcorpan_> no other comments?
934. # [20:48] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: typo: In my optinion
935. # [20:49] <zcorpan_> thanks
936. # [20:52] <Philip`> With conditional comments, is it reasonable to suggest that if IE fixed enough bugs then they could remove support for conditional comments and they would no longer suffer because of authors' expectations of IE-brokenness? (I don't know if that's realistic or not)
937. # [20:52] <zcorpan_> on the long term, yes
938. # [20:53] <zcorpan_> on the short term they won't be able to fix enough bugs to be able to remove CCs
939. # [20:54] <zcorpan_> they are useful to fix bugs without relying on other bugs or expecting the next version of ie to have the same bug
940. # [20:54] <zcorpan_> they are too powerful though, it should have only been possible to say "if lte IE X"
941. # [20:55] <zcorpan_> because too many authors just say "if IE" and thus apply the bug fixes to all future versions of ie that still implements CCs
942. # [20:56] <zcorpan_> (i guess they could drop make "if IE" return false, though, but that would be ugly)
943. # [20:56] <zcorpan_> s/drop//
944. # [20:56] <Philip`> Then people might say "if lte IE 999" if they want to apply to all version of IE forevermore
945. # [20:56] <Philip`> ...but at least then it'd be obviously ugly and nasty, so maybe they wouldn't do that as often as they do "if IE"
946. # [20:56] <zcorpan_> yes, but that would be an active choise
947. # [20:57] <zcorpan_> when they use "if IE" today they only intended to fix IE6
948. # [20:57] <Philip`> Ah, makes sense
949. # [20:58] <Philip`> It would be nice if IE shipped with a list of all its bugs, so you could do conditional comments based on which ones they've fixed yet...
950. # [20:58] <Philip`> (I suppose impossible solutions aren't much good, though)
951. # [21:00] <zcorpan_> given only typos have been commented on i take it as it isn't fundamentally bogus, so i'll send it now
952. # [21:01] <Philip`> I didn't see any fundamental bogosity, though I don't think I'm very sensitive at picking up things like that
953. # [21:02] <zcorpan_> sent
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955. # [21:04] <Philip`> Hmm, should the multipage version of the HTML5 spec be written in HTML 4.01 (like the single-page one is)?
956. # [21:04] <zcorpan_> naw
957. # [21:05] <Philip`> If it has the same normative value as the single-page one (which it appears it does), it would make more sense to not write it in itself
958. # [21:05] <zcorpan_> i'd expect the single-page one to be html5 too when the tools used to produce it are updated
959. # [21:06] <zcorpan_> the html4 spec is written in html4
960. # [21:06] <zcorpan_> having it in html5 would be a proof of concept that it is indeed compatible with html4 UAs :)
961. # [21:07] <Philip`> Ah, okay then
962. # [21:07] <Philip`> http://www.w3.org/TR/WD-html40-970708/cover.html seems to be the latest HTML4 that wasn't written in HTML4
963. # [21:07] <zcorpan_> ok
964. # [21:07] <Philip`> HTML5 is nicer to generate than HTML4, since it makes it obvious how you're meant to do it, so I'm happy with sticking to that :-)
965. # [21:13] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: what was the conclusion of http://www.effi.org/sananvapaus/videotiedostomuoto.html , briefly?
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967. # [21:19] <zcorpan_> wey! opera 9.2 has new style sheets!
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969. # [21:20] <zcorpan_> nice
970. # [21:20] <zcorpan_> now i don't need my "reveal IDs" bookmarklet anymore
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972. # [21:23] <zcorpan_> what is "Inline structure"?
973. # [21:25] <zcorpan_> "Table of contents" would be more useful to have in the sidebar, i think
974. # [21:25] <Philip`> Would it be feasible to implement <video> for IE6/7 with JavaScript+Flash? (It'd only support .flv files but at least it could use the same syntax and API as the alternate non-FLV video sources)
975. # [21:26] <zcorpan_> why flash? i thought you could use html+time to render video in ie
976. # [21:27] <Philip`> Oh, I forgot about that
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978. # [21:27] <zcorpan_> don't know about the feasability though
979. # [21:27] <zcorpan_> would be cool if it worked
980. # [21:28] <zcorpan_> (given what dean edwards has implemented with js in ie, i would be surprised if it didn't work)
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989. # [21:51] <annevk> jgraham, your suggestion is pretty evil
990. # [21:51] <annevk> having said that, I need to go
991. # [21:51] <jgraham> annevk: I know :)
992. # [21:52] <Hixie> we hit /.
993. # [21:52] <kingryan> http://developers.slashdot.org/developers/07/04/12/152245.shtml ?
994. # [21:53] <Hixie> yah
995. # [21:53] <Hixie> sorry if it's old news, i'm going through my new referrers :-)
996. # [21:53] <zcorpan_> authors can use CCs today without making assumptions about future IEs. i don't see why that isn't good enough
997. # [21:53] <kingryan> looks like it was posted today
998. # [21:53] <annevk> (was in this channel before though)
999. # [21:54] <zcorpan_> (i.e. <!--[if lte IE 7]> to fix bugs in current IEs)
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1001. # [21:55] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: "EFFI recommends that videos distributed on the Internet be offered at least as HTTP-downloadable H.264 (Main or Baseline profile)/Low Complexity AAC/MP4 or Theora/Vorbis/Ogg format video files that are directly linked to from an HTML page and that have no kind of Digital Restrictions Management (DRM) applied to them. In particular, it is noted that Windows Media Video or Flash video should not be offered as the only choice."
1002. # [21:56] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: thanks
1003. # [21:57] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: the document was written in response to the national public broadcaster going with a WMV9-only solution that doesn't even work properly with Flip4Mac
1004. # [21:58] <hsivonen> (this happened after they got a new CEO who previously worked from Microsoft Finland)
1005. # [21:58] <zcorpan_> ok
1006. # [21:59] <hsivonen> s/from/for/
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1024. # [22:28] <zcorpan_> Hixie: to be fair to ms, the classid and codebase attributes (and indeed the entire <object> element) might have been invented by ms before it was included in html4
1025. # [22:29] <Hixie> what's in html4 doesn't match what they do
1026. # [22:30] <zcorpan_> i don't understand the question
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1028. # [22:33] <Hixie> it's not a question
1029. # [22:34] <Hixie> ie 'codebase' != html4 'codebase'
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1031. # [22:34] <zcorpan_> oh
1032. # [22:34] <zcorpan_> indeed
1033. # [22:34] <Hixie> so ie's attribute wasn't included in the html4 spec
1034. # [22:34] <Hixie> even if the name was used by ie before the spec came out
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1036. # [22:35] <zcorpan_> true, but if ms used the attribute name first it isn't their fault that it is in conflict with html4
1037. # [22:36] <zcorpan_> that's what i meant
1038. # [22:37] <zcorpan_> ...unless ms were in the html wg back then defining it
1039. # [22:38] <Philip`> Chris said "the WHATWG HTML5 removes a few key attributes from the <object> element that were in HTML 4.01 - namely, classid and codebase - that are heavily used by ActiveX in IE", which is why it's relevant to say that IE isn't actually using those HTML 4.01 attributes
1040. # [22:38] <Philip`> (independent of whose fault it is that the spec and the implementation disagree)
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1042. # [22:39] <zcorpan_> yes
1043. # [22:41] <othermaciej> hi everyone
1044. # [22:42] <zcorpan_> hi othermaciej
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1048. # [22:51] <zcorpan_> "inline structure" reveals at least <code> and <abbr> it seems
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1050. # [23:14] <zcorpan_> is display:table-cell on its own handled correctly in latest webkit? (i.e. is http://simon.html5.org/temp/w3c-home-in-html5.html rendered in three columns or one column?)
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1052. # [23:17] <othermaciej> I'm surprised the HTML5 proposal made it to slashdot but not digg or reddit (yet)
1053. # [23:24] <zcorpan_> apparently it isn't. i can't find a bug about it in bugzilla either.
1054. # [23:24] * zcorpan_ thought it was a known bug
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1056. # [23:25] <othermaciej> zcorpan_: please file a bug if there isn't one
1057. # [23:25] <zcorpan_> oh wait, http://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3235
1058. # [23:25] <webben> Hixie, re http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Apr/0108.html
1059. # [23:26] <webben> where could i read your proposal for CSS replacement of "
1060. # [23:26] <Hixie> don't think i ever wrote it down
1061. # [23:27] <Hixie> basically it's ::text-before(/regexp/) or something
1062. # [23:27] <webben> Hixie, Interesting. Do you know how easy or hard that would be to implement?
1063. # [23:28] <Hixie> probably quite hard, pseudo-elements in general are a bitch
1064. # [23:29] <Hixie> i can't believe chris honestly doesn't see how what he's doing is exactly what microsoft keeps doing to sustain their monopolies
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1066. # [23:29] <Hixie> sometimes people laugh at "don't be evil", but it's exactly this kind of thing that google's culture prevents
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1068. # [23:30] * webben wonders what MS have done now...
1069. # [23:30] <Hixie> the versioning thing in the html list
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1071. # [23:35] <othermaciej> we do try to build the anonymous rendering strctures needed for CSS tables but there could certainly be bugs
1072. # [23:36] <othermaciej> Hixie: I was going to point out that his citation of Windows and Office does little to dispel fears of acting in bad faith
1073. # [23:36] <othermaciej> but I have not finished reading his essay yet
1074. # [23:36] <Hixie> i will let you finish
1075. # [23:37] <othermaciej> don't let me stop you from ranting -)
1076. # [23:37] <othermaciej> :-)
1077. # [23:38] <Hixie> i'm curious in your opinion unbiased by my rants :-)
1078. # [23:38] <ianloic> it's an interesting read
1079. # [23:38] <Hixie> i already recorded my opinion in replies to his mail
1080. # [23:39] <zcorpan_> oops, sometimes threaded view in opera doesn't reveal the entire three
1081. # [23:39] * zcorpan_ responded to something that was already responded to
1082. # [23:41] * Quits: juergbi (n=juerg@80-219-17-127.dclient.hispeed.ch) ("Leaving")
1083. # [23:43] <hasather> zcorpan_: yea, that bothers me too, the only indication of new mail is that the parent mail becomes bold, but the new mail shouldn't be hidden IMO
1084. # [23:46] * Quits: aroben (i=adamrobe@nat/apple/x-149b9459f65c18c9) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
1085. # [23:48] * aroben_ is now known as aroben
1086. # Session Close: Fri Apr 13 00:00:00 2007

The end :)