/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-04-13 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Apr 13 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:01] <zcorpan_> should i respond to henrik's last email?
  4. # [00:02] <zcorpan_> too late
  5. # [00:02] <zcorpan_> although i could be more specific
  6. # [00:02] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: kingryan didn't mention the charter
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  8. # [00:02] <zcorpan_> indeed
  9. # [00:03] * kingryan is lost
  10. # [00:03] <kingryan> are you talking about my email re: implementors vs. authors?
  11. # [00:04] <zcorpan_> no
  12. # [00:04] <zcorpan_> version information
  13. # [00:04] <kingryan> ah, yes
  14. # [00:04] <kingryan> I should have mentioned that too
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  51. # [04:24] <Hixie> so...
  52. # [04:24] <Hixie> there's a problem with the spec splitter script
  53. # [04:24] <Hixie> it causes me to hit my CPU limit.
  54. # [04:24] <Hixie> I've tried 'nice'ing it but that doesn't help
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  59. # [04:47] <mpt_> Hixie, that's easy to solve, just shorten the spec
  60. # [04:48] * mpt_ ducks
  61. # [04:56] * Lachy_ is now known as Lachy
  62. # [05:02] <Lachy> are there any comments in that slashdot article that actually respond to the issue? So far, all comments I've read are mostly off topic talk about stylesheet issues
  63. # [05:05] <mpt_> Not that I could see (but then, I browse at ≥3, so maybe the moderators weren't interested in on-topic discussion)
  64. # [05:07] <Lachy> I leave all comments visible. I find it annoying reading comments that respond to others that aren't shown
  65. # [05:07] <Lachy> and I don't particularly trust people I don't know to be able to choose what I should and shouldn't read
  66. # [05:07] <mpt_> It's great that you have that much time to read :-)
  67. # [05:08] <Lachy> ah, the benefits of being unemployed :-)
  68. # [05:09] <mpt_> You are, largely, trusting people you don't know to choose what you should and shouldn't read every time you do a Web search and don't go beyond the first page of results
  69. # [05:10] <Lachy> I often go beyond the first results page if I don't find what I want
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  76. # [06:30] <Hixie> mpt_: not clear what I should drop that would make it shorter enough. The script that's failing is the one that MAKES it shorter :-P
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  87. # [08:25] <annevk> Everyone should agree on this by now. Versioning debates are awesome!
  88. # [08:27] <othermaciej> I'm going to have to make my own entry in the versioning debate, I fear
  89. # [08:29] <annevk> The browsing sniffing from authors is a major pain though.
  90. # [08:30] <othermaciej> I do think what cwilso is asking for is not only a bad idea but also kind of insulting to the working group
  91. # [08:30] <othermaciej> "we won't ever conform to the spec because at some point we will freeze bugs, please change the spec to make it easier for us to not conform"
  92. # [08:30] <annevk> If a site uses features browser A and B equally support they can still render it differently because the author is uninformed
  93. # [08:31] <Lachy> Chris' fallicious arguments are starting to get annoying
  94. # [08:32] <annevk> (Because the site uses feature detection with a feature outside of the compatible rangebetween A and B.)
  95. # [08:32] <annevk> othermaciej, yeah, that's not very clear to me either. If they completely implement HTML5, there's no need for versioning in HTML6...
  96. # [08:33] <othermaciej> Chris has pretty much said they will never support it: "- support <!DOCTYPE html> as always-the-latest-version,
  97. # [08:33] <othermaciej> Not once it's widely used, as we will break back-compat."
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  99. # [08:36] <annevk> Yeah, I didn't get that statement
  100. # [08:36] <Lachy> I wish Chris would join us in here or #html-wg
  101. # [08:39] <annevk> did David P. try to beat cwilso in the longest e-mail match?
  102. # [08:39] * annevk quit reading it
  103. # [08:41] <othermaciej> I find it funny that he says no changes are acceptable for current content, but any IE changes to HTML5 support will be acceptable so long as less than 0.5% of the web uses that doctype
  104. # [08:41] <othermaciej> so which is it, absolutely 0, or up to 0.5%?
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  106. # [08:41] <othermaciej> because I think "breaks less than 0.5% of sites" would be a fine threshold for anything in HTML5
  107. # [08:41] <othermaciej> perhaps even too lenient
  108. # [08:42] <annevk> if done incrementally we could fix the web :)
  109. # [09:11] <annevk> That people still believed HTML5 was based on SGML
  110. # [09:11] <annevk> How about reading what type of effort you join...
  111. # [09:13] <hsivonen> annevk: I guess having Web Apps 1.0 and Patent Law for Dummies as required reading is too ambitious if people don't read the Charter, which is required reading that everyone had to affirmatively claim to have read
  112. # [09:13] <othermaciej> We need a FAQ
  113. # [09:13] <othermaciej> people won't read that either but at least you can point them to it
  114. # [09:16] <othermaciej> I may have to write an essay of my own to properly reply to Chris
  115. # [09:18] <Lachy> othermaciej, what questions would you like me to add to the WHATWG FAQ to deal with these issues?
  116. # [09:18] <KevinMarks> he basically syas people serve specific things to fucked up ie versions
  117. # [09:18] <annevk> Q: Am I an idiot?
  118. # [09:18] <annevk> A: Most likely.
  119. # [09:19] <othermaciej> Lachy: I guess one about the format not being based on SGML, and maybe one about the reasoning behind the doctype
  120. # [09:20] <KevinMarks> so, how about an ie version tag with a range
  121. # [09:20] <KevinMarks> and he can commit to which version he'll fix it in
  122. # [09:20] <Lachy> othermaciej, we already have those questions
  123. # [09:21] <Lachy> but they could be improved
  124. # [09:22] <othermaciej> Lachy: then I just need to read the FAQ so I know when to point people to it :-)
  125. # [09:22] <Lachy> http://blog.whatwg.org/faq/#doctype
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  139. # [10:47] <krijnhoetmer> Lachy: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/latest/
  140. # [10:48] <hasather> krijnhoetmer: great, thanks for that
  141. # [10:48] <krijnhoetmer> hasather: np
  142. # [10:52] <krijnhoetmer> More ideas?
  143. # [10:53] <met_> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/ sould redirect to latest ?
  144. # [10:53] <met_> and not to the index
  145. # [10:53] <krijnhoetmer> Doh
  146. # [10:53] <krijnhoetmer> :)
  147. # [10:55] <krijnhoetmer> met_: Done
  148. # [10:55] <met_> thx
  149. # [10:55] <met_> and same for http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/ ?
  150. # [10:56] <met_> 8-)
  151. # [10:56] <krijnhoetmer> I did
  152. # [10:56] <met_> not workfor me
  153. # [10:56] <met_> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/ still redirect to index
  154. # [10:56] <krijnhoetmer> Lies!
  155. # [10:56] <krijnhoetmer> :(
  156. # [10:57] <met_> sorry, but till 8-(
  157. # [10:57] <met_> now, the change
  158. # [10:57] <met_> ok mabe it was some cache
  159. # [10:58] <met_> ff cache, in IE it redirect thx and sorry for confusion 8-)
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  161. # [10:58] <krijnhoetmer> Yeah, Fx sucks
  162. # [10:58] <krijnhoetmer> *runs*
  163. # [10:58] * krijnhoetmer is going to erase that line from the logs :P
  164. # [10:59] * met_ used to do ff propaganda in czech republic
  165. # [10:59] <krijnhoetmer> I hope you used 'Fx' for that propaganda then? ;)
  166. # [10:59] * met_ sometime agree, but only sometime
  167. # [10:59] <krijnhoetmer> http://www.mozilla.org/support/firefox/faq.html#spell-abbreviate
  168. # [11:01] * met_ will prefers ff for the end of his life
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  180. # [12:21] <Lachy> krijnhoetmer, that FAQ entry is poor. FF is the most commonly used abbreviation, although FX does get used in SFX for SpreadFirefox
  181. # [12:22] <Lachy> although it's correcrt about not calling it FireFox - that just annoys me everytime I see it
  182. # [12:23] <html6> don't read, test sentance
  183. # [12:24] <Lachy> oops, sorry, I read the sentence and now it's too late :-(
  184. # [12:25] <zcorpan_> Lachy: "fx" or "Fx" is the preferred abbreviation according to Mozilla's FAQ
  185. # [12:26] <Lachy> yeah, like I said, that's wrong
  186. # [12:26] <Lachy> it's always been FF for as long as I've known it
  187. # [12:29] <Toolskyn> Lachy, as far as I know Mozilla made that FAQ entry as soon as the name Firefox was introduced, so how can it be wrong? ;)
  188. # [12:30] <zcorpan_> yeah, people naturally abbreviate it to FF, i don't know why the moz guys don't take a step back and say that it is ok
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  195. # [14:02] <krijnhoetmer> Lachy: Ah, okay :)
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  200. # [14:40] <Ian_> may i ask why you so choose HTML4 rather than XHTML1.1 to base your new idea on?
  201. # [14:42] <Lachy> XHTML 1.1 is a useless spec
  202. # [14:43] <virtuelv> worse than useless, in fact
  203. # [14:43] <Lachy> HTML4 is also useless, but still much closer to reality
  204. # [14:44] <Ian_> see, i think XHTML is quite good. For one thing it encourages that the webpage should centralise around content, and the CSS style sheet around styling.Rather useful for low-capacity low-bandwidth devices such as mobiles to just get the data.
  205. # [14:45] <Lachy> that's the zeldman myth, it's not true
  206. # [14:45] <Lachy> XHTML1 was just a reformulation of HTML4 as XML
  207. # [14:45] <Lachy> the semantics are idenitical
  208. # [14:45] <Ian_> well - i certainly think style stuff should not be in HTML tags but in style sheets
  209. # [14:46] <virtuelv> Ian_: there's _nothing_ preventing you from doing that to HTML4
  210. # [14:46] <Lachy> it does not encourage the separation of content and presentation any more or less than HTML does.
  211. # [14:46] <Ian_> and what is so bad with XML?
  212. # [14:46] <virtuelv> or WA1.0
  213. # [14:46] <Lachy> it's just a different syntax for the same vocabulary
  214. # [14:47] <Ian_> well - will this HTML5 idea remove things such as td height and width and leave that to style sheets
  215. # [14:47] <virtuelv> Ian_: what's so bad about sending user content as XML? read http://annevankesteren.nl/2005/11/draconian
  216. # [14:47] <Lachy> Ian_, HTML5 defines 2 serialisations: One HTML and one XML
  217. # [14:47] <Lachy> so there is both HTML5 and XHTML5
  218. # [14:47] <Lachy> both are the same langauage, just different syntaxes
  219. # [14:48] <Ian_> okay
  220. # [14:49] <Ian_> it is just the styling element which concerns me
  221. # [14:49] <annevk> hey, a non-Hixie Ian
  222. # [14:49] <jdandrea> :)
  223. # [14:50] <Ian_> *)
  224. # [14:50] <Ian_> * 8)
  225. # [14:50] <annevk> FWIW: HTML5 is also based on XHTML 1.1
  226. # [14:50] <Ian_> okay
  227. # [14:50] <Ian_> i should really look into some of the height, width and align etc tags to see if they remain - that would just be annoying :p
  228. # [14:50] <annevk> Ian_, http://simon.html5.org/html5-elements should give you an idea of what elements and attributes HTML5 will have
  229. # [14:51] <Ian_> thanks
  230. # [14:51] <Ian_> may i ask, i dont see it there, but will he style="" tag remain?
  231. # [14:52] <Lachy> hopefully not
  232. # [14:52] <zcorpan_> Ian_: that's not resolved yet. currently only <font style> is allowed by wysiwyg
  233. # [14:52] <Lachy> though, it will be defined, I hope it will remain non-conforming
  234. # [14:52] <annevk> Ian_, it's likely that the attribute will be added back, yes
  235. # [14:53] <Lachy> though, I think it's better than the alternative of <font style>
  236. # [14:53] <hasather> Lachy: agreed
  237. # [14:53] <annevk> Ian_, http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Changes_from_HTML4 lists some changes from HTML4
  238. # [14:53] <annevk> Ian_, most of them, I think
  239. # [14:53] <Ian_> <font> is evil
  240. # [14:53] <annevk> <font> is the only thing that makes sense for WYSIWYG editors
  241. # [14:54] <Ian_> guess you should tell WYSIWYG editors to update themselves if they want to use HTML5
  242. # [14:54] <Ian_> oh - scraping <br/> for the plain <br>
  243. # [14:55] <annevk> Ian_, <br/> is allowed
  244. # [14:55] <Lachy> does anyone know if javascript: URIs have ever been formally defined in any spec?
  245. # [14:55] <Ian_> hmm - i dont like the idea of a double standard
  246. # [14:55] * annevk doesn't think syntax is worthy of much discussion though
  247. # [14:56] <Ian_> i think i may be much more constructive if i actuctly contributed to discussions :P
  248. # [14:56] <zcorpan_> Lachy: i think there's an rfc or i-d for it
  249. # [14:56] <Lachy> HTML5 has a reference to [JSURI], but there's no references in the spec yet
  250. # [14:56] <annevk> Ian_, specifically, the trailing slash is allowed as a symbol of faith
  251. # [14:56] <annevk> Ian_, or something in that direction, for people who believe in that sort of thing :)
  252. # [14:56] <Ian_> yey - all hail />
  253. # [14:56] <Lachy> it's not listed here http://www.iana.org/assignments/uri-schemes.html
  254. # [14:57] <zcorpan_> Lachy: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hoehrmann-javascript-scheme-00.txt
  255. # [14:58] <Lachy> awesome!
  256. # [14:58] <jdandrea> And on my birthday no less. :)
  257. # [14:59] <jdandrea> This post appears to have predated the Hoehrmann draft too: Lachy: See also - http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/discuss/current/msg00330.html
  258. # [14:59] <Ian_> http://www.w3.org/Help/Account/Request/Public - hmm , i never give my phone number online- no need to give it
  259. # [15:00] <annevk> i don't think it will be shown to non members
  260. # [15:00] <annevk> then again...
  261. # [15:00] <Lachy> jdandrea, I already found that email thread when I searched :-)
  262. # [15:00] <jdandrea> Lachy: Ahh, got it.
  263. # [15:01] <Ian_> ok - i will poke around on the site a bit
  264. # [15:01] <Ian_> cya
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  266. # [15:02] * Quits: Ian_ (n=chatzill@ACD44B6A.ipt.aol.com) ("ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.3/2007030919]")
  267. # [15:17] <Lachy> html6, I have no idea what you were trying to say in this email http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Apr/0694.html
  268. # [15:17] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-139-123-225.range86-139.btcentralplus.com)
  269. # [15:18] <Lachy> is anyone else able to comprehend it?
  270. # [15:19] <jdandrea> Lachy: I think it refers to wildcarding.
  271. # [15:19] <Lachy> wild carding in the browsers address bar? What for?
  272. # [15:19] <jdandrea> :)
  273. # [15:20] <jdandrea> To get a list of matching, previously visited links. (As Laurens replies, not something for an HTML spec.)
  274. # [15:21] <annevk> I think it's a feature request
  275. # [15:21] <annevk> for the UI of web browsers
  276. # [15:21] <Lachy> I realise that from reading the replies to it, but I don't understand what the feature request actually is
  277. # [15:21] * jdandrea nods
  278. # [15:21] <Lachy> oh, like a histroy search feature
  279. # [15:22] * jdandrea nods again
  280. # [15:35] <Lachy> oh my gosh, does anyone know what a "tag PACK" is? - another one of Dmitry Turin's emails.
  281. # [15:40] <jdandrea> Lachy: I'm reading the msg it supposedly replies to ... and - this is just a wild guess - I'm wondering if it refers to a related set of elements (table, thead, tfoot, et. al.) ???
  282. # [15:41] <Lachy> I'll reply and ask him.
  283. # [15:42] <jdandrea> Lachy: A ha! Don't know if you've seen this yet, but: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Apr/0520.html
  284. # [15:42] <jdandrea> See <pack host="id1"> ...
  285. # [15:42] <jdandrea> It's literally a pack element.
  286. # [15:44] <Lachy> Do you think it would be rude if I suggested that he seek assistence from someone who is more fluent in english than he is?
  287. # [15:45] <Lachy> I still have no idea what a pack element is supposed to be
  288. # [15:46] <jdandrea> Neither do I. host .. ? Hmm.
  289. # [15:47] <annevk> i believe it's declaritive drawing with HTML
  290. # [15:47] <annevk> similar to the <line> proposal
  291. # [15:47] <Lachy> oh well, I'm going to add him to my growing list of people to ignore
  292. # [15:48] <Lachy> currently up to 3 people, I think
  293. # [15:48] <annevk> the problem with that is that some ideas might be good
  294. # [15:50] <Lachy> I'll skim the messages. If I can comprehend anything that's worthwhile, then I'll see it, but I'm not going to spend time trying to interpret any more
  295. # [15:50] * Joins: rourke (i=seb@84.5.100.41)
  296. # [15:51] * annevk has 95 draft messages from started replies that never have been sent
  297. # [15:51] <Lachy> though, I've seen the ideas on his website. I doubt there will be any that are worthwhile
  298. # [15:51] <Lachy> wow!
  299. # [15:51] <Lachy> how long have those drafts been building up?
  300. # [15:51] <annevk> accumulated over some time
  301. # [15:51] <annevk> i won't be sending them btw
  302. # [15:52] <annevk> more things I can simply answer an then realize that someone else will probably do that
  303. # [15:52] <annevk> so I won't bother
  304. # [15:53] <Lachy> I have 6 in my drafts. 1 for whatwg, 1 for www-tag, 1 for Mike Schinkel (probably won't send) and one I'm writing now for public-html, and one personal
  305. # [15:53] <Lachy> s/6/5/
  306. # [16:02] * Quits: rourke (i=seb@84.5.100.41) ("Quitte")
  307. # [16:10] <annevk> see, jgraham just answered the e-mail I had a draft for
  308. # [16:10] <annevk> and better than my one liner
  309. # [16:11] * annevk had something like "Take it up with your browser vendor. No need for interoperability on UI features."
  310. # [16:12] * Joins: hendry (n=hendry@91.84.53.136)
  311. # [16:12] <Lachy> I was drafting a reply to that one too :-)
  312. # [16:13] <annevk> anyway, time to move places
  313. # [16:13] <annevk> s/places/somewhere else/
  314. # [16:13] <Lachy> http://webstandardsgroup.org/features/lachlan-hunt.cfm is published!
  315. # [16:14] <jdandrea> Congrats! Reading.
  316. # [16:31] <krijnh> "I’ve heard rumours that you were once fired from a job for refusing to top post." - priceless :p
  317. # [16:31] * Quits: annevk (n=annevk@5352CE6F.cable.casema.nl) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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  320. # [16:39] <Lachy> yeah, it seems companies just can't stop thinking up pathetic reasons to fire me
  321. # [16:40] <krijnh> I got fired once, because I didn't want to wear a tie
  322. # [16:40] <krijnh> (and because I made fun of my boss, that as well)
  323. # [16:41] * Quits: met_ (n=Martin@b14-4.vscht.cz) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  324. # [16:41] <Lachy> I got fired for: 1. Refusing to to replace all &amp; with & in an XHTML document (even though it was text/html) and then publicly call my boss a moron
  325. # [16:41] <Lachy> 2. Refusig to top post
  326. # [16:42] <Lachy> 3. Not having any skills with Flash
  327. # [16:42] <jdandrea> Lachy: They wanted you to REPLACE &amp; with &?
  328. # [16:42] <Lachy> yes!
  329. # [16:42] * jdandrea shakes head
  330. # [16:42] <krijnh> Why would they want that?
  331. # [16:43] <Lachy> I had to remove the blog entry about it cause they threatened legal action and I couldn't be bothered fight it on free speech grounds
  332. # [16:44] <Lachy> but the reason was that on my boss' computer, an image was failing to load and he assumed that the cause was the use of &amp; in the query string
  333. # [16:44] <Lachy> despite the fact that it worked on every other comptuer I tested
  334. # [16:46] * Parts: html6 (n=html60@82.209.238.118)
  335. # [16:47] <krijnh> Silly boss
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  353. # [20:35] <hendry> anyone seen the OLPC? http://flickr.com/photos/hendry/457911926/
  354. # [21:02] * om_sleep is now known as othermaciej
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  369. # Session Close: Sat Apr 14 00:00:00 2007

The end :)