/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-04-14 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Apr 14 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:01] * Quits: hendry (n=hendry@91.84.53.136) ("leaving")
  4. # [00:09] <Philip`> Hixie: Is the slowness in the spec splitter just the parsing phase? It would be much better if the spec was written in XHTML, so we could use existing fast XML parsing libraries instead of having to write and optimise an HTML5 one instead ;-)
  5. # [00:10] <Philip`> (Alternatively, I suppose it's a use case that provides some motivation to rewrite html5lib in C...)
  6. # [00:22] <Hixie> Philip`: no, it's the output phase as far as i can tell
  7. # [00:22] <Hixie> it's not slowness that's the problem
  8. # [00:23] <Hixie> it's cpu spiking
  9. # [00:23] <Hixie> i could probably just stick some sleep statements in there
  10. # [00:24] * moeffju is now known as moeffju[ZzZz]
  11. # [00:27] * Joins: mw22__ (n=chatzill@guest-228.mountainview.mozilla.com)
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  15. # [00:41] <gsnedders> othermaciej: manage to do anything about the t-shirts?
  16. # [00:45] * Quits: mw22_ (n=chatzill@guest-228.mountainview.mozilla.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  17. # [00:45] <othermaciej> gsnedders: yes
  18. # [00:45] <othermaciej> http://five-gt-two.spreadshirt.com/
  19. # [00:45] <othermaciej> should I send it to the whatwg list or would that be too inflammatory?
  20. # [00:46] <gsnedders> *giggles at the URL*
  21. # [00:46] <hasather> othermaciej: how many have you sold?
  22. # [00:46] <gsnedders> othermaciej: am I right seeing nothing more than 5 > 2 on it?
  23. # [00:47] <zcorpan_> othermaciej: you could blog about it on blog.whatwg.org
  24. # [00:48] <hasather> gsnedders: your eyes are just fine
  25. # [00:49] <gsnedders> yay. I needn't get my glasses.
  26. # [00:50] <gsnedders> othermaciej: is it possible to get any other colours?
  27. # [00:54] <othermaciej> gsnedders: yes
  28. # [00:55] <othermaciej> gsnedders: I tried to use the higher-quality t-shirts for it, which are available in a limited number of colors - do you have a specific request?
  29. # [00:56] <othermaciej> 3 orders so far btw
  30. # [00:56] <zcorpan_> #3c790a
  31. # [00:56] <othermaciej> if anyone wants to blog it, feel free, I don't want to promote it too much myself (I set it up but I'm not getting a cut of the sales or anything)
  32. # [00:56] <zcorpan_> ...is the whatwg green, i think
  33. # [00:57] <othermaciej> 2 white and one black so far
  34. # [00:57] * zcorpan_ ordered a white one
  35. # [00:57] <othermaciej> zcorpan_: the set of available colors for printing is fixed - I tried to get the closest match I could find
  36. # [00:57] <zcorpan_> ok
  37. # [00:59] <zcorpan_> what should the blog post say?
  38. # [01:02] <Hixie> i love the t-shirts, but if you blog about it, remember that it's not in our best interests to piss off the xhtml2wg more than we already do...
  39. # [01:02] <othermaciej> if you blogged it, I would make it vague
  40. # [01:02] <zcorpan_> should i blog it at all, then?
  41. # [01:03] <othermaciej> like "T-Shirts for Fans of Obvious Mathematical Statements"
  42. # [01:03] * othermaciej is now known as om_beer
  43. # [01:11] <zcorpan_> er, i thought TIME predated SMIL, no?
  44. # [01:11] <Hixie> HTML+TIME is a variant of SMIL for HTML. Not sure which came first.
  45. # [01:11] <zcorpan_> ok
  46. # [01:19] * Joins: jdandrea_ (n=jdandrea@ool-44c0a1fe.dyn.optonline.net)
  47. # [01:23] <zcorpan_> seems i've lost my password on blog.whatwg.org. i haven't received any email with my password, despite using the "lost your password?" thing twice
  48. # [01:23] <Hixie> weird
  49. # [01:25] <zcorpan_> ah, found it
  50. # [01:25] <zcorpan_> better change it to something i can remember
  51. # [01:28] * Parts: jdandrea_ (n=jdandrea@ool-44c0a1fe.dyn.optonline.net)
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  54. # [01:36] * jdandrea__ is now known as jdandrea
  55. # [01:36] <zcorpan_> blog post: "5 > 2. So now you know." should i say anything more? :)
  56. # [01:37] <zcorpan_> (title being the one om_beer suggested)
  57. # [01:37] <zcorpan_> (with "5 > 2" being a link)
  58. # [01:41] * Quits: Toolskyn (n=toolskyn@adsl-dc-266ef.adsl.wanadoo.nl) (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
  59. # [01:41] * Joins: epeus (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-8173a758f94fd5cd)
  60. # [01:47] * om_beer is now known as othermaciej
  61. # [01:47] * Quits: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) ("ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)")
  62. # [01:47] <othermaciej> zcorpan_: that's enough for people who know
  63. # [01:57] <deltab> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-dynamic.html is empty and everything after it is missing
  64. # [01:58] <Hixie> yeah working on it
  65. # [01:58] <Hixie> the script is taking too much cpu on my box so i'm farming out the actual splitting to another box in the UK
  66. # [01:58] <deltab> why does it take too much cpu?
  67. # [01:59] <zcorpan_> http://blog.whatwg.org/t-shirts
  68. # [01:59] <Hixie> deltab: it's a big spec :-)
  69. # [02:00] <deltab> what's involved in splitting it? indexing and rewriting all the links, I guess
  70. # [02:01] * Parts: hasather (n=hasather@81-235-209-174-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  71. # [02:01] <Hixie> http://html5.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/spec-splitter/spec-splitter.py
  72. # [02:01] <Hixie> it should be fixed now, btw
  73. # [02:01] * Parts: hasather_ (n=hasather@81-235-209-174-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  74. # [02:04] <Philip`> deltab: It parses it into a DOM, then extracts the common header/etc bits, then it keeps moving bits from the original single page into the new output page, and it starts a new output page when it reaches certain points (mostly <h2>/<h3>), and when it's finished it goes through every page and finds every ID, then it goes through every page and updates the links, and then it serialises everything out to HTML, and that's about
  75. # [02:04] <Philip`> ... it.
  76. # [02:06] <deltab> ah, DOM + 1.5 MB source
  77. # [02:07] <Philip`> + Python :-)
  78. # [02:07] <Hixie> my update script now calls a web service on w3.org to create the big index page, then calls a web service on a server i have access to in the UK to split the spec up, and that web service calls a web service on whatwg.org to fetch the resulting tarball and unzip it, and then the original script goes ahead and does a svn diff.
  79. # [02:07] <Hixie> talk about a contraption.
  80. # [02:08] <jdandrea> Now THAT's quite a process. Hey, if it works, it works.
  81. # [02:08] * Quits: epeus (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-8173a758f94fd5cd) ("The computer fell asleep")
  82. # [02:09] <Hixie> it would be great parallel processing if it wasn't for the way that each script waits for the previous one to finish before doing anything
  83. # [02:10] * Quits: mw22 (n=chatzill@guest-228.mountainview.mozilla.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  84. # [02:11] <Hixie> by far the slowest part of this process now is the generation of the cross-references in the first place
  85. # [02:13] <Lachy> good morning
  86. # [02:13] * Joins: Philip`` (n=philip@host86-136-164-25.range86-136.btcentralplus.com)
  87. # [02:13] <Hixie> might be time soon for me (or someone else) to write the script that takes the source file, and numbers the headers, generates the toc, and generates the cross-references
  88. # [02:13] <Hixie> hey lachy
  89. # [02:14] <Philip``> Hixie: I have a surprisingly similar (but totally unrelated) system - user commits to SVN on server A, A notifies server B, B updates SVN from A, B notifies C, C updates SVN from A, B spends ~20 minutes compiling the C++ application from SVN, C creates HTML/Atom of SVN history and SCPs it to server D, and after an hour B commits the compiled program back into SVN...
  90. # [02:15] <Hixie> hah
  91. # [02:15] <Philip``> The really surprising thing is that it actually works at all
  92. # [02:15] <Hixie> yeah
  93. # [02:15] <deltab> compiled programs in SVN?
  94. # [02:15] <Philip``> It's kind of grown over the years
  95. # [02:16] <Philip``> (Oh, I forgot that A also notifies Trac so it can automatically close tickets and email the relevant people)
  96. # [02:16] <deltab> oh, I suppose you don't want to spend time recompiling just to run an old version
  97. # [02:17] <Philip``> deltab: It's for a game where there are people (e.g. artists) who can't compile it themselves, so the best solution seems to be to put the executable file into SVN - they can just do a simple checkout and run it
  98. # [02:18] <Hixie> ok the multipage stuff now runs in the background so i no longer have to wait for that to finish to actually check in
  99. # [02:19] <Hixie> anyone know what the status of the annotate-data.xml file is? how to update it, etc?
  100. # [02:21] <zcorpan_> i haven't looked at it yet
  101. # [02:21] <Hixie> k
  102. # [02:21] <Hixie> i guess i should do an update to it, it's getting a bit stale
  103. # [02:22] <zcorpan_> i guess i should look at making it easier to update
  104. # [02:22] <zcorpan_> :)
  105. # [02:22] <Hixie> heh
  106. # [02:22] <othermaciej> I'm still snickering at Lachy's #xhtml log
  107. # [02:22] <Hixie> dude that was some disturbing stuff
  108. # [02:23] <othermaciej> at least they are safe in their padded cell (mostly)
  109. # [02:24] <Hixie> would be interesting to see shane speak to chris
  110. # [02:24] <Hixie> given shane wants to break content that isn't valid (over 93% of the web) and christ wants to not fix any bugs
  111. # [02:24] <Hixie> er, chris, not christ.
  112. # [02:25] <othermaciej> I'm not really sure what to say in response to Chris's stuff
  113. # [02:26] <othermaciej> but I'll have to write something
  114. # [02:26] <Hixie> you realise we're going to end up having to implement all these modes, right
  115. # [02:26] <Hixie> that's the most frightening part of this
  116. # [02:27] <Hixie> by "we" i mean mozilla/opera/apple in terms of browsers and me in terms of the spec
  117. # [02:28] <othermaciej> well, it depends on how quickly browsers fix other compat issues such that the modes are the most important compat isssue vs. changing balance of market share
  118. # [02:28] <othermaciej> it is somewhat true that due to browser targetting there are some bugs that are compat issues *only* for IE
  119. # [02:28] <Hixie> yeah the only way to get out of this mess would be for them to lose 50% market share, at which point they'd be even more screwed by their modes than we would
  120. # [02:29] <othermaciej> if we emulated some IE bugs in Safari, more content would break than stort working
  121. # [02:29] * Quits: Philip` (n=philip@host86-143-13-80.range86-143.btcentralplus.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  122. # [02:29] <Hixie> since we wouldn't have a mode, but they couldn't render the new stuff in their default mode
  123. # [02:29] <Hixie> which would be hilarious
  124. # [02:29] <Hixie> i really don't know what should happen, yeah
  125. # [02:29] <Dashiva> No hope of them committing to just fixing bugs before they become relied upon, I suppose
  126. # [02:30] <Lachy> I once thought that if FF, O and S implemented the spec and proved it was compat with the web, MS would follow, but it's now clear that sadly not the case
  127. # [02:30] <Dashiva> The reason people rely on e.g. peekaboo is because it wasn't fixed, not because they want to
  128. # [02:30] <zcorpan_> Lachy: indeed
  129. # [02:31] <jdandrea> I was just going to say that. "a bunch of people did expect that we didn't implement child selectors in CSS." No, speaking for myself, I _didn't_ expect it. It just became the norm for IE ... eventually.
  130. # [02:31] * Parts: Philip`` (n=philip@host86-136-164-25.range86-136.btcentralplus.com)
  131. # [02:31] <Hixie> we're not going to convince microsoft not to do versionning
  132. # [02:31] <Hixie> we can definitely stand firm against spec-condoned opt-ins
  133. # [02:32] <othermaciej> well, there's one aspect of this that maybe cwilso hasn't thought about clearly
  134. # [02:32] <Hixie> and we can try to make the spec even more compatible than we have so far
  135. # [02:32] * Hixie bites his tongue
  136. # [02:32] <othermaciej> which is that the likely content-breaking points of incompatibility are mostly in CSS and core DOM, not in HTML
  137. # [02:32] <zcorpan_> let's make the html4 strict and xhtml1 strict doctypes conforming html5 doctypes :)
  138. # [02:32] <Hixie> othermaciej: there's certainly some incompatibilities in html too, but yes
  139. # [02:32] <othermaciej> none of the examples he raised were actually HTML examples
  140. # [02:32] <Hixie> <button type=> default, parsing, those are html
  141. # [02:33] <othermaciej> (except for the <object> example which was fallacious)
  142. # [02:33] <jdandrea> othermaciej: Interesting point there ... !
  143. # [02:33] <Hixie> yeah i don't know if he really believes his <object> argument or what
  144. # [02:33] <Lachy> zcorpan_, that may not be such a bad idea from an authoring tool perspective, since so many already insert such doctypes by default
  145. # [02:33] <othermaciej> amusingly, there is an Apple intranet site I know of that won't work in IE because of their differing button type default)
  146. # [02:34] <Hixie> hah
  147. # [02:34] <zcorpan_> i filed bugs about <button type> default and <button> using innerText instead of .value, but they were dismissed as "by design"
  148. # [02:34] <Hixie> !
  149. # [02:35] <zcorpan_> i shit you not
  150. # [02:35] <Dashiva> "by design" means "by not being fixed long enough for sites to rely on it" :/
  151. # [02:35] <Lachy> as I wrote in an off-list maill to Hixie last night, I think it would be good if <button> defaulted to type=button, but <button type=unknown> defaulted to type=submit
  152. # [02:36] <othermaciej> I wonder if it is true that MS got sued for fixing IE bugs
  153. # [02:36] <zcorpan_> <button> defaulting to type=button makes it harder to make repetition templates fallback server side
  154. # [02:36] <Lachy> ask him for evidence that it would happen
  155. # [02:36] <zcorpan_> you have to use client side script
  156. # [02:36] <Hixie> zcorpan_: well that's already hard
  157. # [02:36] <Hixie> zcorpan_: because of IE
  158. # [02:36] <zcorpan_> yes
  159. # [02:36] <Hixie> zcorpan_: the point is Lachy's suggestion doesn't break that
  160. # [02:36] <jdandrea> Didn't someone mention the EULA sort of limits their liability??
  161. # [02:37] <zcorpan_> true
  162. # [02:37] <Hixie> zcorpan_: since those have <button type=unknown>
  163. # [02:37] <Dashiva> Even if the EULA says stuff, it can't override local law
  164. # [02:37] <zcorpan_> i would be fine with making <button> default to type=button then, given that ms don't intend to fix it
  165. # [02:38] <Lachy> he seems to be going from: Microsoft gets sued a lot to Microsoft will get sued for breathing
  166. # [02:38] <Dashiva> I would also enjoy default type button, since styling regular buttons is my main use for button
  167. # [02:38] <Hixie> zcorpan_: send a mail and i'll add it to the wf2 pile
  168. # [02:38] <zcorpan_> ok
  169. # [02:39] <Hixie> thanks
  170. # [02:39] <Hixie> ok i've reorganised the browsing contexts section to have a saner order, this should make it easier to write the spec
  171. # [02:39] <Hixie> and read it
  172. # [02:39] <Dashiva> So gentlemen, how do we get IE's market share down to 50% so they'll listen to reason?
  173. # [02:39] <Hixie> make ff3 suck less would be one start
  174. # [02:40] <Dashiva> That's replacing one impossibility with another
  175. # [02:40] <othermaciej> does FF3 suck?
  176. # [02:41] <othermaciej> as in, more than IE7?
  177. # [02:41] <Hixie> the ff3 trunk is bad
  178. # [02:41] <Hixie> crashy, slow, bloated, bigger download than ff2
  179. # [02:41] <Hixie> not to mention flaky
  180. # [02:41] <Hixie> it's rather sad
  181. # [02:42] <Lachy> I had to uninstall teh FF trunk cause it kept crashing whenever I used it
  182. # [02:42] <zcorpan_> print preview in my fx trunk is broken
  183. # [02:43] <Dashiva> It's not like pre-beta builds are all that stable in general, of course
  184. # [02:43] <Hixie> this is worse than usual
  185. # [02:44] <Hixie> i've been using pre-alpha browsers for literally 9 or more years and this is the worst i've seen since the netscape 6 days
  186. # [02:45] <zcorpan_> what about .innerText vs .value on <button>?
  187. # [02:45] <Hixie> haven't done anything with .innerText yet
  188. # [02:45] <Hixie> what is it?
  189. # [02:45] <Hixie> i mean, what is it in the context of buttons
  190. # [02:46] <Hixie> i know what the attribute is in general
  191. # [02:46] <zcorpan_> ie submits .innerText to the server instead of .value
  192. # [02:46] <zcorpan_> <button type=submit value=pass>fail</button>
  193. # [02:46] <Hixie> ah
  194. # [02:46] <Dashiva> We can't spec that, it would make them even more useless than currently
  195. # [02:46] <Hixie> do other browsers do the right thing?
  196. # [02:46] <Dashiva> Might as well deprecate type=submit
  197. # [02:46] <zcorpan_> Hixie: yes
  198. # [02:47] <Hixie> let's leave it then, clearly it's not THAT important
  199. # [02:47] <zcorpan_> ok
  200. # [02:49] <Dashiva> If anyone ever made a page depending on that, I want to stab them :D
  201. # [02:49] <Hixie> they might not do it on purpose
  202. # [02:50] <Dashiva> It would require not specifying value at all, and still expecting one
  203. # [02:50] <Hixie> yeah
  204. # [02:50] <Hixie> easy mistake
  205. # [02:50] <Hixie> you know a lot of people write code by seeing what they get and coding to it
  206. # [02:50] <Hixie> not by thinking about what they're doing
  207. # [02:50] <Hixie> even you, i'm sure, do that
  208. # [02:50] <zcorpan_> logical way of working
  209. # [02:51] <zcorpan_> reading specs is more work
  210. # [02:51] <Dashiva> But the behavior when value in unspecified is unspecified, so other browsers could conform to that
  211. # [02:51] <Dashiva> Would be like <option> with no value
  212. # [02:52] <zcorpan_> yeah, that could work
  213. # [02:53] <Dashiva> Who wants to bring it up with MS? :)
  214. # [02:54] <zcorpan_> on public-html?
  215. # [02:54] <Hixie> just send a mail to the whatwg list and i'll update the spec in due course (make it explicit since i won't look at this for several months probably)
  216. # [02:54] <Hixie> btw if the multipage page gets out of sync let me know, the system is a bit brittle and i'm not sure why it's not always working
  217. # [02:55] <zcorpan_> Hixie: the mail i just sent, was it too brief?
  218. # [02:55] <Hixie> no that was fine
  219. # [02:55] <Hixie> cos it was a simple issue :-)
  220. # [02:55] <zcorpan_> ok
  221. # [02:55] <Dashiva> Should've mentioned defaulting to submit for unknown
  222. # [02:55] <Hixie> this issue is a bit more complex
  223. # [02:55] * zcorpan_ drafts what we have discussed so far
  224. # [02:56] <Dashiva> "initial value of the button element is the value attribute, or the contents of the element if it is missing"
  225. # [03:00] <Lachy> Hixie, how widely used is <button type=submit>?
  226. # [03:00] <Lachy> do you have stats on that?
  227. # [03:01] <Hixie> looks like i don't
  228. # [03:01] <Dashiva> Anyone with Safari care to report the submitted values on http://folk.ntnu.no/magnusrk/test/buttonvalue.html ?
  229. # [03:01] <Lachy> I know I've used it, but none of my sites depend on IE's non-standard behaviour. They were all forced to work around it by not using a value
  230. # [03:01] <Lachy> 1. novalue=
  231. # [03:02] <Lachy> 2. emptyvalue=
  232. # [03:02] <Lachy> 3, value=non-empty+value
  233. # [03:02] <Dashiva> Same as FF and Opera then
  234. # [03:07] <Dashiva> Can anyone imagine a site specifying value but relying on innerText being submitted?
  235. # [03:08] <Lachy> it seems unlikely, <input type=submit> would be used far more often for that purpose
  236. # [03:08] <zcorpan_> well, some might use it as a way to identify ie on the server, for whatever reason
  237. # [03:09] <Lachy> but then if IE is was as standards compliant as other browsers, then it wouldn't really matter that much
  238. # [03:09] <zcorpan_> indeed
  239. # [03:09] <Lachy> unless the stupid site was using it to lock out other browsers
  240. # [03:09] <Lachy> but that seems unlikely to use that method
  241. # [03:10] <zcorpan_> from what i've heard the reason to process .innerText was to work around the bug. so fixing it wouldn't break those sites
  242. # [03:10] <zcorpan_> ...on the server that is
  243. # [03:10] <zcorpan_> or with js
  244. # [03:11] <Dashiva> It would only break if a site specifies value, but relies on only innerText, which only makes sense from a viewpoint of intentional breakage, not from laziness or ignorance
  245. # [03:11] <zcorpan_> Dashiva: what's the difference between the first and second button?
  246. # [03:11] <Dashiva> Empty attribute and missing attribute
  247. # [03:12] * zcorpan_ doesn't see the empty attribute
  248. # [03:12] <Dashiva> ... right
  249. # [03:12] * Dashiva fix
  250. # [03:13] <Dashiva> It doesn't really matter now, since it would only matter in browsers that implement the option-like behavior
  251. # [03:13] <Hixie> can someone rephrase this to fix the obvious problem without removing the precision and conformance criteria?: "When invoked as a constructor, this constructor must construct a"
  252. # [03:14] <othermaciej> the problem being word repetition?
  253. # [03:14] <Dashiva> How do you invoke a constructor as a non-constructor? Leaving out new?
  254. # [03:14] <othermaciej> many constructors can also be called as functions
  255. # [03:15] <Hixie> yes and yes
  256. # [03:15] <Hixie> i can replace the last "construct" with "replace a new"
  257. # [03:15] <Hixie> euh
  258. # [03:15] <Hixie> "return a new"
  259. # [03:15] <othermaciej> "return a new", yes
  260. # [03:16] <Dashiva> Could move the when clause to the end, but that would be easier to miss
  261. # [03:16] <othermaciej> and you could replace "this constructor" with the referent (which I assume is "the Audio constructor")
  262. # [03:16] <Hixie> Audio, Image, and Option at the moment
  263. # [03:16] <Dashiva> e.g. This constructor must return a new (...) when invoked as a constructor.
  264. # [03:17] <Hixie> the (...) is too long for that
  265. # [03:18] <Dashiva> "The constructor, when invoked as a constructor, must return a new" sounds silly
  266. # [03:18] <Hixie> ok i've used "When invoked as constructors, these must return a new"
  267. # [03:18] <Hixie> since they have multiple variants in each case
  268. # [03:21] <othermaciej> Hixie: if you really want to get technical, per the ES3 spec what happens during "new" is that the "[[Construct]]" internal property is called
  269. # [03:22] <othermaciej> but that's probably moredetail than you want and may be incompatible with future ES specs
  270. # [03:22] <Hixie> i'm also supposed to be pretending to attempt to stay language-neutral
  271. # [03:22] <Hixie> but yeah
  272. # [03:22] <Hixie> maybe i should just say that
  273. # [03:23] <Dashiva> Is whatwg involved in es4 in any way?
  274. # [03:23] <zcorpan_> *now* i got my password from the blog. very helpful :)
  275. # [03:23] <Hixie> i want a spec to define the whole HTMLFooElement and .prototype stuff too
  276. # [03:23] <othermaciej> other than vague overlap of participants, not really
  277. # [03:24] <othermaciej> Hixie: it would indeed be nice to have a spec for that, I wish it had existed before we reverse-engineered Firefox to add it to Safari
  278. # [03:24] <othermaciej> hmm, Chris Wilson's vacation mail says he will be at web 2.0 expo, I wonder if he'd be interested in meeting up for dinner or something
  279. # [03:25] <Hixie> you going to web 2.0 expo?
  280. # [03:26] <othermaciej> no, but it's in SF apparently
  281. # [03:27] <Hixie> ah
  282. # [03:27] <Hixie> well if he does want to meet up, let me know
  283. # [03:28] <othermaciej> roger that
  284. # [03:29] <Hixie> is this accurate?:
  285. # [03:29] <Hixie> Each Document has a scripting context, which provides a structure in which scripts can execute. Scripting contexts are associated with a domain, which defines the security context of that scripting context. Each scripting context also has a global scope, which is represented by the object representing the Document's default view, the Window object.
  286. # [03:29] <othermaciej> I'm not sure what "scripting context" means, but I think it is more properly associated with the browsing context than with the document
  287. # [03:30] <Hixie> oh right Window elements survive page loads
  288. # [03:33] <Hixie> so by the web's model, you couldn't make a browser that actively rendered and let you interact with more than one Document per browsing context, right?
  289. # [03:33] <Hixie> like, you couldn't have a live view of all the documents in history, one of them would have to be the "live" one
  290. # [03:33] * Quits: othermaciej (i=mjs@nat/apple/x-943b52138fd72cd9)
  291. # [03:35] <Dashiva> Hixie: How do iframes figure into that?
  292. # [03:36] <Hixie> oh, ignore those
  293. # [03:36] <Hixie> they introduce new browsing contexts
  294. # [03:37] <Dashiva> So browsing context and window are 1:1?
  295. # [03:37] <Hixie> yes
  296. # [03:38] <Dashiva> XMLHttpRequest lets you access a Document without a new window
  297. # [03:39] <Dashiva> Just creating empty Documents aside, I imagine there are other ways to instantiate new ones (LSParser, etc)
  298. # [03:39] <Hixie> the Document without a window isn't in a browsing context
  299. # [03:39] <Hixie> that's just a Document
  300. # [03:39] <Hixie> it can't be "live"
  301. # [03:41] <Dashiva> Well, if neither internal (above) nor external documents (frames) satisfy it, I don't see how it could happen
  302. # [03:41] <Hixie> imagine a UI where you can interact with all the documents in your session history at once
  303. # [03:41] <Hixie> instead of the current UI where you can only see one at a time
  304. # [03:42] <Dashiva> How would that be different from a tabbed browser with one static tab per page in history?
  305. # [03:42] <Hixie> with the tabbed ui, only one of the pages is "active"
  306. # [03:43] <Hixie> script isn't running in all of them at once, presumably
  307. # [03:43] <Hixie> or if it is, then it's what i'm describing, and my question is, does the model that html uses support that at all
  308. # [03:43] <Dashiva> Running a CPU-intensive script in one tab and focusing another should show scripts still run in all tabs
  309. # [03:44] <Hixie> current browsers don't let you put all the documents in your history in different tabs.
  310. # [03:45] <Dashiva> Caching details aside, could you not get the behavior by always using 'open in new tab'?
  311. # [03:46] <Hixie> no, because then they would be in different browsing contexts with different session histories.
  312. # [03:46] <Hixie> i'm talking about one session history
  313. # [03:46] <Dashiva> ah
  314. # [03:49] <Dashiva> In the JS circles I frequent, it's a truism that neither scripting context nor window survives a page load
  315. # [03:49] <Hixie> Window survives page load
  316. # [03:50] <Hixie> if you have an iframe and take its Window object, then navigate to another page in the iframe and take that Window object, and compare them, they're the same.
  317. # [03:50] <Hixie> with === equality
  318. # [03:50] <Dashiva> But a large amount of its properties are changed/reset
  319. # [03:50] <Hixie> same object though
  320. # [03:51] <Dashiva> Probably for implementation reasons, it doesn't offer any beneficial behavior that I can think of
  321. # [03:52] <Dashiva> To say, nothing would change if browsers started making new objects
  322. # [03:53] <Hixie> oh lots of sites would break
  323. # [03:53] <Hixie> lots of sites will grab the window object once and manipulate it across page loads
  324. # [03:53] <Hixie> (of a child iframe, e.g.)
  325. # [03:53] <Hixie> e.g. var x = window.open(...); /* time passes */ x.close();
  326. # [03:54] <Dashiva> Ah, like that
  327. # [03:54] <Hixie> where while time passed, the window navigated to other pages
  328. # [03:55] <Dashiva> Yeah, that would break. A consequence of the mixing of window object and the frame/tab/window it's contained in
  329. # [03:56] <Dashiva> But Opera does manage to preserve the window properties of each page when going back and forward, somehow
  330. # [03:56] <Hixie> sure, all browsers do
  331. # [03:56] <Hixie> the html5 spec even says to do it
  332. # [03:56] * Dashiva envisions time-share of the window object to allow concurrent use of a window object with different documents
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  334. # [03:57] <Dashiva> But other than references to the window from other windows, is window object persistence otherwise used?
  335. # [03:58] <Hixie> not sure how else it could be used
  336. # [04:01] <Dashiva> Then I'll agree the current model doesn't allow concurrent live pages in the same session history, without some crazy time-sharing, but it could potentially be changed by making window references point to the containing frame/tab/etc and its current window object, rather than a specific one
  337. # [04:08] * zcorpan_ updates notes at http://simon.html5.org/test/ie7b2-bugs/
  338. # [04:13] <zcorpan_> perhaps the html parser should ignore </li> tags (like ie does)
  339. # [04:15] <Hixie> test case?
  340. # [04:15] <Hixie> i'm pretty sure i found it didn't ignore </li>
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  342. # [04:20] <zcorpan_> http://simon.html5.org/temp/li.html
  343. # [04:20] <Hixie> interesting
  344. # [04:20] <Hixie> send mail
  345. # [04:20] <Hixie> i've gotta go
  346. # [04:21] <Hixie> thanks for the help
  347. # [04:21] <zcorpan_> ok
  348. # [04:21] <zcorpan_> np
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  387. # [11:55] <met_> why html5 is not sgml? (just red http://annevankesteren.nl/2007/04/html-red-pill ) i am not sgml-fun, just thought almost any markup can be described by sgml, what is the difference
  388. # [11:56] <zcorpan_> sgml doesn't define error handling
  389. # [11:56] <Lachy> sgml isn't compatible with the web
  390. # [11:57] <met_> if you define what should happen for tag soup <x><y></x></y> it stops being sgml?
  391. # [11:58] <zcorpan_> Lachy: well, an application of sgml could be made compatible with the web (if we also define error handling), but assuming that the sgml declaration for html4 is in place then no. (and defining error handling for sgml is not appropriate for a higher-level spec to do)
  392. # [11:58] <Lachy> SGML rules would force <y> to close immediate before the </x>
  393. # [11:58] <Lachy> I don't think it's possible to write an SGML declaration that could handle all conforming documents
  394. # [11:59] <zcorpan_> and in any case, it's simpler to define the whole thing as a separate language than to continue to pretent that it is sgml
  395. # [11:59] <Lachy> you could get close, but not perfect
  396. # [11:59] <zcorpan_> ok
  397. # [11:59] <met_> thx
  398. # [11:59] <zcorpan_> and saying that it is sgml doesn't help implementors
  399. # [12:08] <zcorpan_> i should have an email filter that filters out all +1 and -1 emails
  400. # [12:09] <hendry> Maulkin:
  401. # [12:10] <met_> zcorpan_, just sum +1 and -1, this gives you zero and zero is not neccessary to read
  402. # [12:10] <zcorpan_> the problem is i can't figure out which emails are +1 and -1s until i read them
  403. # [12:10] <zcorpan_> and i don't want to read them
  404. # [12:11] <zcorpan_> they shouldn't enter my inbox
  405. # [12:11] <zcorpan_> obviously it would be nice if people just didn't send +1 or -1 emails
  406. # [12:12] <met_> they are used tom from digg and reddit this time
  407. # [12:12] <met_> just post mail to reddit and they can vote there 8-)
  408. # [12:12] <zcorpan_> i don't read digg or reddit
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  417. # [13:45] * mpt_ is amused that the XHTML2 WG inherited the venerable http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/ URL
  418. # [13:47] <zcorpan> should i add http://diveintomark.org/public/2005/12/whitelights/ to the html5 presentations page in the wiki? (it's about other stuff too)
  419. # [13:48] <zcorpan> (great presentation)
  420. # [13:48] <krijnh> Yes
  421. # [13:48] <zcorpan> (or slides, i didn't see the presentation)
  422. # [13:48] <zcorpan> ok
  423. # [13:49] <mpt_> it's an interesting presentation, but it mentions HTML5 only tangentially
  424. # [13:49] <krijnh> It's also from December 2005
  425. # [13:49] <zcorpan> indeed
  426. # [13:49] <krijnh> Perhaps that's why it mentions HTML5 only tangentially
  427. # [13:49] <krijnh> (Learned a new word, yay)
  428. # [13:50] <zcorpan> perhaps he didn't want to talk about html5 exclusively
  429. # [13:50] <mpt_> It's mainly about writing
  430. # [13:50] <zcorpan> so should i add it or not?
  431. # [13:52] <mpt_> If this is a vote, mine's -1
  432. # [13:52] <krijnh> Hmm
  433. # [13:52] <krijnh> What's the wiki URI?
  434. # [13:53] <Lachy> wiki.whatwg.org
  435. # [13:53] <zcorpan> mpt_: ok
  436. # [13:55] <krijnh> Ah, it only has 3 links, nah, then don't add it :)
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  447. # [17:10] <Lachy> I started drafting up that blog entry to explain the situation - http://lachy.id.au/temp/mistakes
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  469. # [21:37] <gsnedders> om_brunch: light blue would be nice (re: t-shirt colours)
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  485. # [22:58] <zcorpan> othermaciej: http://blog.whatwg.org/t-shirts#comments
  486. # [23:00] <othermaciej> zcorpan: I'm not sure fantasai hating it is a bad thing (although she might be one of few potential customers for the girly version)
  487. # [23:01] <othermaciej> I think she missed the point that the obscurity is completely intentional
  488. # [23:01] <othermaciej> it's an inside joke, not an advocacy statement
  489. # [23:01] <othermaciej> as for doing it in a better font, that is probably being my personal skill level
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  491. # [23:27] * Quits: webben (n=benjamin@82.152.236.225) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  492. # [23:30] * Joins: finnbo (n=finn@cpe-74-64-9-27.nyc.res.rr.com)
  493. # [23:36] <zcorpan> just read through http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/xhtml/20070413 . amusing.
  494. # [23:38] * othermaciej cries
  495. # [23:39] * Quits: aroben (n=adamrobe@adsl-70-231-246-66.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net)
  496. # [23:43] * jdandrea is reading ... "oh my ..."
  497. # [23:52] * Joins: Philip`` (n=philip@host86-137-69-141.range86-137.btcentralplus.com)
  498. # [23:53] <jdandrea> "opera and apple ... are also-rans." ??? Ouch.
  499. # [23:54] <zcorpan> as if the "run" was over
  500. # [23:55] <jdandrea> exactly.
  501. # [23:55] * hsivonen wonders how XHTML 2.0 fared :-)
  502. # [23:55] <jdandrea> Sounds like a cautionary tale to me.
  503. # [23:56] <zcorpan> sorry guys, ie won and firefox came second, no need to improve safari or opera anymore. let's pack our bags and go home.
  504. # [23:56] <jdandrea> heh
  505. # [00:00] <othermaciej> jdandrea: "oh my" where?
  506. # Session Close: Sun Apr 15 00:00:00 2007

The end :)