/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-04-15 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Apr 15 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <jdandrea> othermaciej: "oh my" the entire transcript @ http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/xhtml/20070413
  4. # [00:00] <jdandrea> Just finished it. Wow. Interesting times ...
  5. # [00:00] <othermaciej> oh, right
  6. # [00:00] <othermaciej> yeah
  7. # [00:01] <othermaciej> well, all Gecko-based browsers total used to have less market share than Safari does now
  8. # [00:01] <othermaciej> and Safari's is growing
  9. # [00:01] <othermaciej> anyway, that guy is a tool
  10. # [00:06] <zcorpan> interesting view though. "i don't care about the existing content on the web, if it stops working then who cares? it was invalid anyway. let's make up a new perfect language with no defined error handling, which isn't a problem because there will be tools that produce perfect code and UAs won't accept non-compliant code."
  11. # [00:07] <zcorpan> "and this is handled with a new doctype."
  12. # [00:07] <zcorpan> (that's how i interpreted it, anyway)
  13. # [00:08] <jdandrea> I'm a (relatively) late arrival to the WHAT-WG myself, but I've been reading the docs backwards and forwards and taking it all in. I like what I see!
  14. # [00:08] <hsivonen> what's the business interest of ApTest in XHTML 2.0?
  15. # [00:08] <jdandrea> I wonder what the ratio of real-world HTML-to-CSS concerns is for MS. Even a ballpark figure.
  16. # [00:09] <othermaciej> I think IE7 has made them scared to change anything ever
  17. # [00:09] <jdandrea> hmm
  18. # [00:09] <jdandrea> Someone warn Molly.
  19. # [00:10] <othermaciej> I wonder how she would feel about Chris's stance on versioning
  20. # [00:10] <jdandrea> Bingo.
  21. # [00:10] <Dashiva> Frustrated?
  22. # [00:11] <zcorpan> perhaps cwilso is afraid of losing his job
  23. # [00:13] <zcorpan> (just speculating)
  24. # [00:14] <jdandrea> Has anyone read his "Albatross!" blog posts?
  25. # [00:14] <zcorpan> pointer?
  26. # [00:14] <jdandrea> "I should be really clear here – I don’t really want to be the chair of the HTML Working Group." http://blogs.msdn.com/cwilso/archive/2007/01/10/you-me-and-the-w3c-aka-reinventing-html.aspx
  27. # [00:14] <Dashiva> zcorpan: He did say he thought he was close after IE7
  28. # [00:14] <jdandrea> Though I may be quoting out of context. There's more to it ...
  29. # [00:15] <zcorpan> Dashiva: yeah, i meant that it might be the reason he wants versioning in ie
  30. # [00:15] <othermaciej> it's getting increasingly clear that he is not doing any actual chairing
  31. # [00:15] <zcorpan> jdandrea: yes i read it before
  32. # [00:15] <jdandrea> zcorpan: ahh, ok
  33. # [00:16] * jdandrea answers the clarion call of din-din - bbl ...
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  35. # [00:16] <Dashiva> He still hasn't explained how versioning is supposed to help when browser releases don't coincide with standard changes
  36. # [00:18] <othermaciej> if you think XHTML2 WG is crazy: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070413/ap_on_hi_te/rebuilding_the_internet
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  38. # [00:19] <zcorpan> ha
  39. # [00:19] <othermaciej> forget replacing the web, how about replacing the whole internet?
  40. # [00:20] <zcorpan> why don't we move to another planet altogether?
  41. # [00:20] <othermaciej> a lot of Earth does not use proper semantic geography
  42. # [00:20] <othermaciej> so you have a good point there
  43. # [00:20] <othermaciej> we need a solar system that refuses to process planets which are not well-formed
  44. # [00:20] <zcorpan> i mean, the earth sucks, the only way to address security and mobility is to start from a clean slate
  45. # [00:21] <zcorpan> exactly
  46. # [00:23] * othermaciej is now known as om_errands
  47. # [01:24] <zcorpan> could we say that class names in html are case insensitive? (so that they match case insensitively in css) would it break any documents? (it is required for quirks mode, i'd presume)
  48. # [01:25] <zcorpan> or is that just considered a css quirk not in html's domain to fix?
  49. # [01:27] * om_errands is now known as othermaciej
  50. # [01:29] <othermaciej> zcorpan: they are case insensitive in quirks mode, but making them CI in quirks mode would likely break things
  51. # [01:29] <othermaciej> zcorpan: I don't know what non-CSS use of classes would be relevant here though
  52. # [01:30] <zcorpan> getElementsByClassName, getElementsBySelector
  53. # [01:30] <othermaciej> neither of those would be used in old content
  54. # [01:30] <othermaciej> so there's no need for compatibility workarounds
  55. # [01:31] <zcorpan> indeed
  56. # [01:31] <zcorpan> you said "but making them CI in quirks mode would likely break things" -- i don't follow, they already are CI in quirks mode
  57. # [01:31] <othermaciej> er
  58. # [01:31] <othermaciej> in strict mode I meant
  59. # [01:31] <zcorpan> ah
  60. # [01:32] <zcorpan> ok
  61. # [01:32] <zcorpan> so it's considered a css quirk then
  62. # [01:32] <othermaciej> you could make those APIs switch on quirks vs. strict mode, but I think that would be unhelpful
  63. # [01:33] <zcorpan> yeah
  64. # [01:34] <zcorpan> i'm just interested in having quirks mode specced...
  65. # [01:34] <zcorpan> most of the web rely on quirks
  66. # [01:35] <zcorpan> not speccing them means new vendors would have to reverse engineer others anyway
  67. # [01:36] <zcorpan> (implementing html5 and css21 would only work with standards mode content)
  68. # [01:38] <othermaciej> yes, although most quirks mode issues are CSS issues, not HTML
  69. # [01:38] <othermaciej> there are a few exceptions, mostly parsing issues
  70. # [01:38] <othermaciej> but I think many parsing quirks could safely be put in both modes
  71. # [01:40] <zcorpan> if not all, though that would perhaps also include <p><table> (could content rely on it being a child? how?)
  72. # [01:41] <zcorpan> why can't <p><table> parsing be dropped from quirks mode? is there an example page that relies on it?
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  74. # [01:42] <zcorpan> (either way, i'd like it to be parsed the same in both modes...)
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  82. # [02:41] <zcorpan> so ms don't actually want to implement the spec. just use it as a guide and implement something near it. how depressing. and they are introducing more rendering modes that all other browsers will be forced to implement.
  83. # [02:43] <zcorpan> ...unless they become a minority vendor
  84. # [02:44] <zcorpan> in which case it's just a problem for them
  85. # [02:44] <jdandrea> ... and we instigate that by ... :)
  86. # [02:44] <jdandrea> I hear ya.
  87. # [02:45] <Lachy> I wonder if Chris would be willing to compromise on the versioning switch...
  88. # [02:45] <Lachy> Let the authors decide if they want the page to render according to IE[n] bugs when they write the page, or if they want to always render in the latest standards mode
  89. # [02:46] <zcorpan> that could work
  90. # [02:46] <Lachy> e.g. so <!DOCTYPE html> would always trigger the latest standards mode, but if the author adds some version switch, they get that versions
  91. # [02:46] <Dashiva> He would agree to that, I think. However, he argues that most/many/some authors would opt in without meaning to
  92. # [02:46] <Lachy> it's the lesser of two evils
  93. # [02:47] <Dashiva> After all, standards mode was supposed to be for standards, but now it's a frozen bug state
  94. # [02:48] <zcorpan> we should remember what standards are for... to foster interop
  95. # [02:50] <zcorpan> or a shortcut to get interop, if you will. without standards vendors could still reverse engineer each other to get interoperable
  96. # [02:50] <Lachy> ha! "Huh? Wrong about what, exactly?" -- Chris Wilson :-)
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  124. # [10:01] <hsivonen> Lachy: do we have a mechanism for blacklisting commenter URLs on the WHATWG blog?
  125. # [10:01] * hsivonen deals with yet another einemillioneurohomepage spam
  126. # [10:04] * hsivonen finds the Akismet blacklist
  127. # [10:06] <hsivonen> hmm. I guess it is called Spam Karma 2
  128. # [10:06] <hsivonen> Lachy: how do Akismet and Spam Karma 2 interact?
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  132. # [10:20] <gavins> Lachy: yt?
  133. # [10:22] <gavins> nm :)
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  137. # [10:43] <Lachy> hey
  138. # [10:45] <Lachy> hsivonen, those plugins seem to work well together. I'm not sure of the details, but if one doesn't catch the spam, the other generally does
  139. # [10:45] <Lachy> gavins, yes?
  140. # [10:45] <gavin> Lachy: I was going to ask where I could find "Lachy's #xhtml log", but I found it
  141. # [10:50] <Hixie> hsivonen: ask lachy
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  145. # [11:45] <hsivonen> Hixie: ask Lachy about spam?
  146. # [11:54] <Hixie> about the blog, yeah
  147. # [11:54] <Hixie> i don't admin it
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  158. # [18:06] <gsnedders> what would be a good way to mark up a list of aims, and justifications behind those aims? a <dl>?
  159. # [18:09] <hsivonen> gsnedders: depends on the presentation you want
  160. # [18:09] * hsivonen hides
  161. # [18:11] <gsnedders> a numbered list of aims (so <ol>), with the justifications set off in a box out of line from the content (an <i>?)
  162. # [18:14] <gsnedders> I think really what I'm unsure about is how to mark up the justification… just another paragraph?
  163. # [18:19] * gsnedders settles on nested ol elements, combined with headers for each aim, with a paragraph(s) for the justification
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  175. # [20:34] <hsivonen> http://seo.has.no.com/2007/04/seo-tip-for-html5/
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  187. # [22:49] * bewest is wondering where to find the appropriate venue for feedback regarding http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-web-forms-2-20060821/#form-submission
  188. # [22:50] * zcorpan points out that bewest isn't reading the most resent version of the spec
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  190. # [22:51] <zcorpan> but, since the html-wg haven't decided yet about adopting wf2 (might be mistaken here, still have 45 emails to read), -> whatwg list
  191. # [22:52] <bewest> that seems to be the most recent version
  192. # [22:52] <bewest> erm
  193. # [22:52] <zcorpan> it's the most resent WD
  194. # [22:52] <bewest> oh
  195. # [22:52] <bewest> should I be looking somewhere else?
  196. # [22:53] <zcorpan> http://whatwg.org/wf2
  197. # [22:53] <bewest> great
  198. # [22:54] <bewest> so whatwg mailing list is good?
  199. # [22:54] <hsivonen> would be nice to get the decision in the HTML WG...
  200. # [22:54] <hsivonen> bewest: yes
  201. # [22:54] <zcorpan> bewest: yes
  202. # [22:55] <bewest> hmm I should probably do some homework before posting
  203. # [22:56] <bewest> I'll do some searching as well, but can anyone recall any discussion around using some protocol to allow the application to communicate it's input expectations to the user agent, instead of doing strict type checking of input on the client side?
  204. # [22:57] <bewest> AFAICT the application will have to perform the validation routines again, anyway, since I don't see any mechanism for ensuring that incoming input has already been checked
  205. # [22:58] <hsivonen> bewest: yes, the server has to do it again, because it would be dangerous to trust stuff arriving over HTTP
  206. # [22:58] <bewest> right
  207. # [22:59] <bewest> and in addition, the format/type of input is probably some subset of requirements for validity for many applications, I would suspect
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The end :)