/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-04-18 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Apr 18 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  13. # [01:13] <Hixie> Since we are "paving the cow paths" it seems to me that we must also pave
  14. # [01:13] <Hixie> foreseeable future cow paths as well. To that end, add a version
  15. # [01:13] <Hixie> attribute and just be done with it. Everyone else can ignore it.
  16. # [01:13] <jdandrea> Heh.
  17. # [01:13] <jdandrea> (from the list, aye)
  18. # [01:13] * Hixie wonders if the author understands the cowpath principle
  19. # [01:13] <Dashiva> Hixie: What's the reasoning for the void Table.delete* methods, rather than (e.g.) Table.remove* which return the removed element?
  20. # [01:14] <Hixie> the reasoning is probably "that's what DOM2 HTML has"
  21. # [01:16] <Dashiva> And related, create* now explicitly only returns new elements, while DOM2 HTML states they may return an existing one
  22. # [01:18] <Hixie> probably based on what browsers did, i forget. however if you find an incompatibility, feel free to mail the list and i'll look at it
  23. # [01:19] <Dashiva> Personally I consider the whole bunch redundant and low-utility, so no worries :)
  24. # [01:20] <Philip`> http://www.ipfw.edu/chem/104/kimble/cowpath.htm - that seems to advocate against paving cow paths, because they're often far from the best route and it's just that nobody has thought to look around and notice there's a problem. But I think this is probably taking the metaphor a bit too far...
  25. # [01:21] <Dashiva> No, it's a good lesson
  26. # [01:22] <Dashiva> The cowpaths to pave are those with a sensible foundation, not mindless drones enforcing it
  27. # [01:22] * jdandrea moos
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  29. # [01:23] * jdandrea keeps thinking the versioning request is meant (on the whole) more for CSS/DOM, not so much HTML.
  30. # [01:23] <Dashiva> Prototyping Object is a cowpath that should be blocked off on penalty of death :)
  31. # [01:23] <jdandrea> lol
  32. # [01:28] <Philip`> (Hmm, not sure why that page lacks the proper attribution - http://www.mitcharf.com/mitcharf/art/poems/calfpath.html seems a better resource)
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  44. # [02:09] <Lachy> good morning
  45. # [02:10] <zcorpan_> Lachy: morning
  46. # [02:10] <Philip`> (http://www.archive.org/details/whiffsfromwildme00fossiala (p. 77) - aha, found the original! and hooray for copyright expiration)
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  49. # [02:18] <jdandrea> Philip`: "The Calf-Path" - thanks for finding this!
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  52. # [02:20] * jdandrea thinks it would make good starter lyrics for a folk-rock song
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  55. # [02:28] <zcorpan_> isn't name="" on <iframe> missing? (opera supports id="", but firefox and ie don't)
  56. # [02:29] <Hixie> possibly
  57. # [02:31] <zcorpan_> if we want <a target> and <form taget> to work with iframes then we need <iframe name>, i think
  58. # [02:33] <zcorpan_> should i mail the list?
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  63. # [02:34] <Hixie> zcorpan_: sure
  64. # [02:34] <Hixie> and thanks
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  66. # [02:34] <annevk> does it need to be conforming? prolly...
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  70. # [02:35] <zcorpan_> annevk: <a target> is conforming, what use is it if you can't use it together with iframes?
  71. # [02:35] <annevk> i meant <iframe name>
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  73. # [02:35] <annevk> much like <map name>
  74. # [02:36] <zcorpan_> <map> works with id. <iframe> doesn't
  75. # [02:36] <annevk> the former doesn't in Firefox
  76. # [02:37] <zcorpan_> but it does in ie. the latter doesn't in both firefox and ie.
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  80. # [02:38] <annevk> Firefox has like 10% market share...
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  82. # [02:38] <annevk> If working is an argument, <map name> should certainly be conforming
  83. # [02:38] <zcorpan_> not against that
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  85. # [02:39] <annevk> they should be handled in a consistent way imo
  86. # [02:39] <annevk> same for <object id/name> etc.
  87. # [02:40] <om_coffee> I think it's preferrable to have only id be conforming if there aren't any major UAs where name works but id doesn't for some construct
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  91. # [02:41] <zcorpan_> othermaciej: <iframe id> doesn't work in ie nor firefox (don't know about safari)
  92. # [02:42] <othermaciej> zcorpan_: yeah, I'm just making a broad generalization based on what annevk said
  93. # [02:42] <othermaciej> I don't know what the situation is with object id/name
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  96. # [02:46] <zcorpan_> well, i guess i need to do more testing here first then
  97. # [02:46] <zcorpan_> not today though
  98. # [02:46] <Hixie> :-)
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  102. # [02:54] <annevk> zcorpan_, what does http://xhtml.se/2007/04/17/x-and-html-sitting-in-a-tree/ say?
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  104. # [02:57] <Dashiva> It's basically saying "Now that HTML and XHTML will be the same in v5, it won't matter which one you use"
  105. # [02:57] <zcorpan_> annevk: it basically says that html5 is the future, and that it doesn't matter if you use xhtml1 or html4 today, and it is pointless to switch from xhtml1 to html4, and pointless to argue about why xhtml is bad/shouldn't be used
  106. # [02:58] <zcorpan_> yeah
  107. # [02:58] <annevk> blah
  108. # [02:58] <Dashiva> It fails to address the non-HTML aspects
  109. # [02:58] <annevk> if he means XHTML as text/html though, fair enough
  110. # [02:58] <Dashiva> Like mime-types, CSS background, you know the list better than me
  111. # [02:58] <annevk> is that made explicit?
  112. # [02:59] <zcorpan_> annevk: he does, although he also likes content negotiation and mobile stuff
  113. # [02:59] <Dashiva> He doesn't mention it in the article itself, though
  114. # [03:00] <zcorpan_> he will hold a presentation about xhtml at geekmeet together with my html5 presentation next month
  115. # [03:00] <Dashiva> Seems to be a defense for people using xhtml, rather than saying xhtml is good :)
  116. # [03:00] <zcorpan_> Dashiva: indeed, i just know because i've talked with him about it a lot
  117. # [03:00] <annevk> "Look, I'm right after all!"
  118. # [03:02] <zcorpan_> annevk: i don't think it's benefitical to argue against these guys. he's not alone. making html5 accept xhtmlish syntax makes them happy. :)
  119. # [03:03] <annevk> I'm not arguing, I'm just making fun of them :)
  120. # [03:03] <zcorpan_> he's not ignorant at all, i just think he sticks to the xhtml idea because he bought the domain name ;)
  121. # [03:03] <zcorpan_> ok
  122. # [03:03] <annevk> lol
  123. # [03:04] <Dashiva> Wow
  124. # [03:04] <Dashiva> Now it's "why not a namespace on the html element"
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  126. # [03:06] <zcorpan_> cwilso also thought it would be appropriate to use the namespace as a versioning switch, didn't he?
  127. # [03:06] <annevk> ouch
  128. # [03:10] <zcorpan_> http://www.w3.org/mid/5C276AFCCD083E4F94BD5C2DA883F05A27D7192F39@tk5-exmlt-w600.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com
  129. # [03:11] <annevk> crazy
  130. # [03:11] <annevk> same as the nonsense people supporting that idea
  131. # [03:14] <othermaciej> I think cwilso doesn't want a version attribute because he (probably correctly) thinks people will just leave it off
  132. # [03:15] <Dashiva> That's counter to his other line of arguments, that people copy the header cargo cultishly
  133. # [03:15] <Hixie> no, he pointed out 50% of sites leave off the <!DOCTYPE>
  134. # [03:17] <Dashiva> Yes, but he also argues that many sites who opt for standards mode don't really want standards mode, so we could never have a real "give me the latest and best" switch
  135. # [03:19] <Lachy> As a web developer, I find Chris' implication that those of us who use Strict DOCTYPEs to get standards mode now aren't competent enough to want "always standards mode" offensive
  136. # [03:19] <Dashiva> XHTML has taught us a lot of people will say it without meaning it, though :/
  137. # [03:19] <othermaciej> it seems to me that Microsoft having such major bugs that were left around for years is a major contributing factor to the breakage level
  138. # [03:20] <Lachy> the incompetence of others shouldn't reflect on the whole
  139. # [03:21] <Lachy> MS actually needs to do some real work and research each change on a case by case basis, rather than ruling them all out at once
  140. # [03:23] <Dashiva> And not fix the "solution bugs" before the problems that depend on it
  141. # [03:23] <zcorpan_> Lachy: they will only do that if they become a minority vendor and the web will ignore their versioning switches and work better on the competitor's browsers
  142. # [03:23] <zcorpan_> i think
  143. # [03:23] <zcorpan_> competitors' even
  144. # [03:24] <Lachy> zcorpan_: yes, it's quite sad
  145. # [03:25] <zcorpan_> so that scenario is what we should aim for then :)
  146. # [03:27] <Philip`> Perhaps the HTML5 spec should add an author conformance requirement that all pages must end in <a href="http://getfirefox.com">Get Firefox!</a>
  147. # [03:28] <annevk> right
  148. # [03:29] <annevk> what about opera.com
  149. # [03:29] <annevk> we actually implemented WF2!
  150. # [03:29] <Dashiva> It should rotate
  151. # [03:31] <Philip`> opera.com doesn't have enough swooshy blue and orange bits :-(
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  153. # [03:46] <annevk> you know, some people appreciate that :)
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  179. # [07:01] <Hixie> hey did anyone ever write a faq entry on why versioning is bad?
  180. # [07:03] <annevk> don't think so
  181. # [07:03] <annevk> we need more wiki entries
  182. # [07:03] <annevk> on role=, href=, versioning, etc.
  183. # [07:03] <annevk> of course, this is easy to say and hard to do :)
  184. # [07:04] <annevk> "hard"
  185. # [07:07] <hober> @role makes my head hurt
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  187. # [07:08] <hober> I honestly can't figure out how it is any different from @class
  188. # [07:09] <hober> besides in some kind of "@class has been abused, therefore let us introduce a new attr that'll also be abused" sense
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  191. # [07:12] <Lachy> if someone sends me a Q&A for versioning, I can add it to the FAQ. If not, I'll get around to it later this week.
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  194. # [07:13] <Lachy> it'll probably form part of that blog entry I'm writing, and will finish after I get back from the WAF F2F this weekend
  195. # [07:13] <Hixie> cool
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  197. # [07:27] <annevk> What's the idea for "wizards" and "model dialogs"?
  198. # [07:28] <Hixie> modal, you mean?
  199. # [07:28] <Hixie> both are pretty bad ui
  200. # [07:28] <Hixie> but window.open() can handle them
  201. # [07:29] <annevk> I quite like the "step 1 of 4" kind of UI
  202. # [07:29] <annevk> not sure about modal dialogs
  203. # [07:29] <annevk> window.open() doesn't make it modal though
  204. # [07:30] <Hixie> wizard ui does very badly in usability studies, as i understand it
  205. # [07:30] <Hixie> you can easily make things modal, just ignore events in the other browsing context
  206. # [07:30] <Hixie> but basically the <switch> thing i've been talking about is the real solution to this
  207. # [07:31] <annevk> is it going in?
  208. # [07:31] <annevk> or HTML6?
  209. # [07:33] <Hixie> if we can find a working decent solution, it's the last thing i personally want to put in
  210. # [07:33] <Hixie> i.e. other than everyone else's requests
  211. # [07:33] <annevk> it's not used that often
  212. # [07:34] <Hixie> any time someone tries to do ui using display:none, they're asking for it
  213. # [07:34] <annevk> hmm
  214. # [08:06] <annevk> So you have HTML tokenization which does some sort of case mangling. You have the HTML DOM APIs which uppercase stuff and there's CSS matching...
  215. # [08:06] * annevk played around with the <pÉ> element
  216. # [08:06] <annevk> and also <pé>
  217. # [08:09] <annevk> It seems that some browsers actually uppercase that through the DOM
  218. # [08:09] <Lachy> there are some interop problems with case sensitivity of selectors that matching non-ASCII chars
  219. # [08:09] <annevk> Internet Explorer and Firefox
  220. # [08:09] <annevk> yes
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  222. # [08:14] <Lachy> it would probably make sense to try and define that UAs must use the Unicode Case Mappings, but we should actually try and do some tests to figure out how closely UAs follow them
  223. # [08:15] <Lachy> I hope Unicode is more interop than HTML4, cause I don't want to write Unicode5, but somehow I doubt it.
  224. # [08:15] <annevk> Unicode 5 is already here
  225. # [08:16] * annevk rather has ASCII case-insensitive when possible
  226. # [08:16] <Lachy> that's Unicode 5.0, I meant like a WHATWG version
  227. # [08:16] <Lachy> that's one possibility, but isn't quite what UAs do at the moment
  228. # [08:19] <Lachy> I don't think we'll need to change parsing reqs to address this issue, but we'll need to more thouroughly define the DOM APIs upper-casing rules and selector matching
  229. # [08:19] <Lachy> since Selectors says case sensitivity depends on the markup language, we should be able to define explicity case sensitivity rules
  230. # [08:20] <annevk> selectors should just be fixed...
  231. # [08:20] <Lachy> could we define that for XHTML5, selectors are case insensitive?
  232. # [08:21] <Lachy> it should be the language that matters, not the serialisation
  233. # [08:21] <annevk> i would think so
  234. # [08:32] <Hixie> are you also suggesting that <INPUT> and createElementNS(... 'INPUT') create HTML <input> elements?
  235. # [08:32] <annevk> createElement should
  236. # [08:33] <annevk> createElementNS prolly not
  237. # [08:33] <Hixie> then the selectors shouldn't match either, imho
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  252. # [10:14] <Hixie> hmm
  253. # [10:15] <Hixie> i wonder if window.location and window.history are per-Document or per-Window
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  257. # [10:31] <aroben> Hixie: I should think window.history would have to be per-Window
  258. # [10:32] <Hixie> turns out it's actually per-Document
  259. # [10:32] <aroben> Hixie: what would a single-document history mean?
  260. # [10:32] <aroben> Hixie: ??
  261. # [10:32] <Hixie> a new object is created for each Document
  262. # [10:32] <Hixie> they all represent the same underlying data, naturally
  263. # [10:32] <aroben> Hixie: ah, I see
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  266. # [10:57] <mpt> Ahhh, that reminds me of Netscape 2
  267. # [10:58] <mpt> where the Back and Forward buttons took you back and forward entire framesets, and frames had separate "Back in This Frame" and "Forward in This Frame" shortcut menu items
  268. # [10:58] <mpt> madness
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  270. # [11:01] <Hixie> not that the more modern frame ui is much more usable
  271. # [11:03] <Hixie> the public-html and public-xhtml2 are amusing to compare
  272. # [11:04] <Hixie> both groups are doing basically nothing
  273. # [11:04] <Hixie> but the former is doing it with significantly more acticity
  274. # [11:04] <Hixie> activity
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  284. # [11:55] <zcorpan_> whohoo!!
  285. # [11:55] <zcorpan_> i got the job!
  286. # [11:55] <zcorpan_> :D :D :D
  287. # [11:56] <Hixie> congrats!
  288. # [11:56] <Hixie> which job? :-)
  289. # [11:56] <zcorpan_> at opera
  290. # [11:56] <Hixie> nice
  291. # [11:56] <zcorpan_> for the summer
  292. # [11:57] <Hixie> do you know what you'll be doing?
  293. # [11:57] <zcorpan_> writing a test suite for html5
  294. # [11:57] <Hixie> sweet
  295. # [11:57] <zcorpan_> yup
  296. # [11:57] <Hixie> guess i'd better finish this spec off, then :-P
  297. # [11:57] <zcorpan_> heh
  298. # [11:58] <hasather> zcorpan_: congrats :)
  299. # [11:58] <zcorpan_> thanks
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  301. # [12:01] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: congrats
  302. # [12:01] <zcorpan_> thanks :)
  303. # [12:02] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: it would be superb if you could include a categorization of expected syntactic correctness
  304. # [12:02] * moeffju[ZzZz] is now known as moeffju
  305. # [12:03] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: you mean test cases intended for conformance checkers?
  306. # [12:03] <hsivonen> anne's wf2.0 browser tests were very useful for conformance checkin, but the suite lacked this data
  307. # [12:04] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: i mean using browser test as conformance checker tests as a byproduct
  308. # [12:04] <zcorpan_> ah, yeah that would be simple to arrange
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  312. # [12:48] <Dashiva> I have this feeling everyone on the list is ignoring the html60 guy
  313. # [12:55] <Hixie> i didn't ignore him
  314. # [12:55] <Hixie> i just didn't understand what he was proposing
  315. # [12:55] <Hixie> so i didn't feel qualified to comment
  316. # [12:55] <Hixie> anyway, well beyond bed time
  317. # [12:55] <Hixie> nn
  318. # [12:56] <hasather> good night Hixie
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  341. # [16:50] * zcorpan_ downloads swift_0.2.msi
  342. # [16:52] <sgillies> i just found out about the time element from Sam Ruby's blog. is anyone considering geo-spatial markup? i'm asking this because Google is proposing that KML (the Google Earth language) be the markup for what the GIS industry likes to call the "Geo-Web". i'd rather there weren't two webs where there could be one
  343. # [17:03] <hsivonen> sgillies: what's the use case for geospatial markup in HTML?
  344. # [17:07] <sgillies> find pages, or elements of pages, that have a spatial context. much the same as the use case for time, really. i admit that it is not as generally useful
  345. # [17:07] <sgillies> substitute "where" for "when" in the time use case
  346. # [17:09] <hsivonen> hmm. looking at http://microformats.org/wiki/geo and comparing the situation with <time>, perhaps Hixie should bless Tantek's general <abbr> design pattern somehow
  347. # [17:10] <hsivonen> the main problem I see with the <abbr> pattern is that it is designed to be backwards compatible with HTML 4.01 validation instead of being designed to be backwards-compatible with the browser rendering of <abbr> and title="".
  348. # [17:11] <sgillies> hsivonen: http://georss.org is probably a better example than the microformat. all the major web mapping applications can consume spatially referenced RSS.
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  359. # [18:24] * zcorpan_ is playing around with im.css in opera... can someone mention my name?
  360. # [18:24] <gavin_> zcorpan_
  361. # [18:25] <zcorpan_> works :)
  362. # [18:25] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  363. # [18:25] * zcorpan_ now has a counter at the right top of the window of how many times my name has been mentioned
  364. # [18:26] <Dashiva> zcorpan_ zcorpan_ zcorpan_ zcorpan_ zcorpan_ zcorpan_ zcorpan_ zcorpan_ mushroom mushroom
  365. # [18:26] <zcorpan_> lol
  366. # [18:27] <zcorpan_> snake! snake!
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  370. # [18:42] <hendry> I can't access this URL with my W3 username http://www.w3.org/Member/Intro
  371. # [18:42] <hendry> can you guys?
  372. # [18:43] <h3h> that's because you're probably not a Member
  373. # [18:43] <h3h> you're a member
  374. # [18:43] <h3h> there's a difference :)
  375. # [18:44] <hendry> so 'invited expert' isn't a member, eh?
  376. # [18:44] <h3h> invited expert is a member
  377. # [18:44] <h3h> invited expert is not a Member
  378. # [18:45] <h3h> Members: http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Member/List
  379. # [18:45] <hendry> so a member must be a company, not an individual?
  380. # [18:45] <hendry> and I guess a member must pay fees
  381. # [18:48] <h3h> heh. is your shift key broken?
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  384. # [19:08] <zcorpan_> hendry: h3h's point is that there's a difference between members and Members. you're a member but not a Member.
  385. # [19:09] <hendry> zcorpan_: oh really?
  386. # [19:09] <hendry> h3h: that's really confusing
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  388. # [19:09] <h3h> tell that to them
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  390. # [19:10] <hendry> I must say I fealt a little smug with the "invited expert" title at first and didn't ask too many questions
  391. # [19:10] <hendry> now I feel like a victim ;)
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  403. # [20:36] * weinig|bbl is now known as weinig
  404. # [20:49] <kingryan> hmm, I can't seem to find where in the current spec it says that "void elements" must not have an end tag
  405. # [20:50] <kingryan> it's also not clear that contentmodel == empty is equivalent to "void element"
  406. # [20:52] <billmason> kingryan: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#elements0 "Void elements only have a start tag; end tags must not be specified for void elements."
  407. # [20:53] <kingryan> billmason: ah, thanks
  408. # [20:54] <kingryan> so, starting at http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#param with the question "why does the validator say 'Fatal Error: End tag param seen even though the element is an empty element.'?" I couldn't find the answer
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  414. # [21:16] <jdandrea> From Browser Wars IV: A New Hope - http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=231321&cid=18784983
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  433. # Session Close: Thu Apr 19 00:00:00 2007

The end :)