/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-04-22 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Apr 22 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:01] <zcorpan_> there
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  9. # [00:49] <zcorpan_> "Simple animation support: Flash makes creating animations extremely easy. Doing the same thing in anything Free (HTML, SVG, even Gtk) requires being a good code monkey. The example above required NO coding." -- http://www.advogato.org/person/company/diary.html?start=39
  10. # [00:50] <zcorpan_> thus, we need authoring tools for canvas or svg animations
  11. # [00:50] <zcorpan_> probably svg is more suitable for animations
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  17. # [01:04] <zcorpan> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2007-April/010975.html where did that leading space in the table come from?
  18. # [01:04] * zcorpan ponders
  19. # [01:07] * om_sleep is now known as othermaciej
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  25. # [01:20] <Philip`> zcorpan: "<map name> works in all except in Gecko in XHTML and WebKit in XHTML." - but the table's data for 007 seems to indicate it does work in WebKit-XHTML
  26. # [01:21] <zcorpan> Philip`: ah, yes, thanks
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  31. # [01:31] * zcorpan likes the "no alt = image is meaningful" idea
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  36. # [01:43] * othermaciej is now known as om_wet
  37. # [01:46] <jgraham> http://wordsandpictures.dyndns.org/html5/parsetree.html (a HTML5 DOM viewer based on html5lib -- still very rough)
  38. # [01:47] * jgraham is going to sleep now
  39. # [01:48] <zcorpan> jgraham: nice!
  40. # [01:48] <zcorpan> why are the elements uppercased?
  41. # [01:50] <jgraham> Ah, in innerHTML view they shouldn't be... I'll remove that CSS :)
  42. # [01:50] <zcorpan> it shouldn't be in the tree either, should it?
  43. # [01:52] <jgraham> I guess it makes more sense to have everything lowercase (it's also easier)
  44. # [01:52] <zcorpan> yeah
  45. # [01:57] <zcorpan> innerHTML view says "<!DOCTYPE: HTML>"
  46. # [02:00] <zcorpan> perhaps the textarea should be POST?
  47. # [02:01] * zcorpan stops bugging jgraham now
  48. # [02:12] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@dsl001-150-252.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  49. # [02:13] <Lachy> jgraham, #text nodes shouldn't appear outside of the root element.
  50. # [02:16] <zcorpan> Lachy: i think they should
  51. # [02:16] <zcorpan> (per spec that is)
  52. # [02:17] <zcorpan> (if the spec is wrong is another matter)
  53. # [02:17] <Lachy> I mean in the DOM view
  54. # [02:18] <zcorpan> yes?
  55. # [02:18] <Lachy> so the DOM spec applies
  56. # [02:18] <Lachy> and I'm fairly sure they shouldn't
  57. # [02:18] <zcorpan> the html5 parsing spec says to append text nodes to the Document object in some cases
  58. # [02:19] <Lachy> that's weird
  59. # [02:20] * Parts: hasather (n=hasather@81-235-209-174-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  60. # [02:21] <zcorpan> what would you do with whitespace between the doctype and the first tag?
  61. # [02:21] <Lachy> drop it
  62. # [02:21] <zcorpan> why?
  63. # [02:21] <Lachy> outside of the document, it has no meaning and irrelevant
  64. # [02:22] <Lachy> s/document/root/
  65. # [02:22] <Lachy> that's what browsers do
  66. # [02:22] <zcorpan> i think at least firefox appends the whitespace to the HEAD instead
  67. # [02:23] <zcorpan> not sure about the others
  68. # [02:24] * Parts: webben_ (n=benh@82.153.134.109)
  69. # [02:24] <zcorpan> and whitespace after </body> and </html> is appended to the body or whatever unclosed element was open in body... in firefox, and iirc
  70. # [02:27] <zcorpan> i don't feel strongly about it either way, but the way it's defined now preserves the "source code" after parsing and serializing (fwiw)
  71. # [02:28] <Lachy> firefox doesn't retain whitespace before the root
  72. # [02:30] * om_wet is now known as othermaciej
  73. # [02:31] <zcorpan> Lachy: compare data:text/html,<!doctype html>%0A<html> and data:text/html,<!doctype html><html> in DOM viewer (check the contents of HEAD)
  74. # [02:32] * Joins: annevk (n=annevk@203.17.70.52)
  75. # [02:32] <zcorpan> the first has a text node in HEAD, the second doesn't
  76. # [02:33] <Lachy> which version of FF are you using?
  77. # [02:33] <annevk> morning
  78. # [02:33] <Lachy> hi annevk
  79. # [02:33] <zcorpan> Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9a4pre) Gecko/20070417 Minefield/3.0a4pre
  80. # [02:33] <Lachy> I've only got FF2
  81. # [02:33] <zcorpan> got the same results last time i checked, which was probably a year ago or something
  82. # [02:33] <Lachy> and it doesn't show the whitespace
  83. # [02:33] <zcorpan> really?
  84. # [02:33] <annevk> testing parsing?
  85. # [02:34] <zcorpan> annevk: yeah
  86. # [02:34] <Lachy> testing how whitespace outside of the root should be handled
  87. # [02:34] <zcorpan> whitespace between doctype and root
  88. # [02:34] <annevk> it would make sense to contribute to the testsuite format already developed for parsing I think
  89. # [02:34] <Lachy> annevk, see http://wordsandpictures.dyndns.org/html5/parsetree.html
  90. # [02:35] <annevk> fancy
  91. # [02:35] <annevk> what I meant was that there's already a testsuite input and output format
  92. # [02:36] <annevk> through some scripting that can be used for browser testsuites etc.
  93. # [02:36] * annevk slowly fetches 208 e-mails
  94. # [02:37] <zcorpan> Lachy: tested in fx2 now and indeed it gets dropped
  95. # [02:38] <Lachy> annevk, where have you gone touring around so far? Been to the rainforest yet?
  96. # [02:39] <Lachy> or sand surfing?
  97. # [02:39] <annevk> heh, all public-uwa messages get marked as spam
  98. # [02:39] <annevk> Lachy, I've been doing the rainforest walk
  99. # [02:39] <annevk> yesterday
  100. # [02:39] <annevk> it was quite exhausting
  101. # [02:39] <annevk> we walked over 20km
  102. # [02:40] <annevk> after about 12km rainforest we found some water
  103. # [02:40] <annevk> after 20km we found a beer and some chips :)
  104. # [02:40] <Lachy> :-)
  105. # [02:40] <Lachy> who did you go with?
  106. # [02:40] <annevk> the plan was to take a short walk of about an hour
  107. # [02:41] <annevk> but we missed something underway...
  108. # [02:41] <annevk> with marcos
  109. # [02:42] <zcorpan> data:text/html,%3Cp%3Ex%3C%2Fbody%3E%20%3C%21--foo--%3E%20%3C%2Fhtml%3E%20%3C%21--bar--%3E%20x
  110. # [02:42] <Lachy> jgraham, test FF3 with XML to see if it keeps whitespace outside of the root
  111. # [02:43] <annevk> that's conforming btw
  112. # [02:43] <annevk> and should be done per XML
  113. # [02:43] * Joins: aroben (n=adamrobe@adsl-70-231-234-224.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net)
  114. # [02:43] <annevk> Opera should have some fix for that for the next major Opera release
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  116. # [02:45] <zcorpan> Lachy: fx3 drops whitespace outside root in xml
  117. # [02:45] * Joins: aroben (n=adamrobe@adsl-70-231-234-224.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net)
  118. # [02:45] <Lachy> right
  119. # [02:45] <annevk> dropping?!
  120. # [02:46] <annevk> it's simply not added per the XML grammar
  121. # [02:46] <zcorpan> what's the difference?
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  123. # [02:48] <zcorpan> annevk: did you see http://xhtml.se/2007/04/20/im-not-arguing-im-just-making-fun-of-them/ ?
  124. # [02:51] <Dashiva> I'm famous!
  125. # [02:51] <zcorpan> lol
  126. # [02:52] <annevk> no
  127. # [02:53] <Dashiva> How come I'm the only one with "" around my name?
  128. # [02:53] <annevk> lol
  129. # [02:54] <Lachy> probably because he thinks that's not your real name
  130. # [02:54] <Dashiva> Unlike zcorpan? :)
  131. # [02:54] <zcorpan> :D
  132. # [02:54] <zcorpan> it is! promise!
  133. # [02:54] <Lachy> :-)
  134. # [02:55] <Dashiva> What's the status of that 'conformant html5' image?
  135. # [02:55] <zcorpan> ?
  136. # [02:56] <Lachy> do you mean the Valid HTML5 logo with Hixie's cat on it?
  137. # [02:56] <Dashiva> Yeah, that one
  138. # [02:56] <zcorpan> ah
  139. # [02:56] <zcorpan> http://simon.html5.org/temp/valid-html5.png
  140. # [02:56] <annevk> you should move that out of temp
  141. # [02:57] <Dashiva> Is valid the right word? Is using the cat legal? How many submarine patents are expected?
  142. # [02:57] <Lachy> ha!
  143. # [02:57] <zcorpan> ftp doesn't work for me today
  144. # [02:57] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  145. # [02:57] <zcorpan> Dashiva: cat used without permission :)
  146. # [02:58] * zcorpan expects to get sued by Hixie
  147. # [02:58] <annevk> whoa
  148. # [02:58] <Lachy> permission from Hixie is implied, he hasn't complained about it
  149. # [02:58] <annevk> dhyatt has enough time to be co-editor
  150. # [02:58] <Lachy> probably just enough time to keep those who think we need 2 editors happy
  151. # [02:59] <Dashiva> Hixie can send him some diffs so Hyatt can commit them
  152. # [02:59] <zcorpan> heh
  153. # [03:00] <Lachy> why is http://simon.html5.org/temp/ forbidden? I want to see what other cool stuff you have hidden in there
  154. # [03:00] <annevk> it's temp
  155. # [03:00] <Lachy> so?
  156. # [03:00] <Dashiva> temp stuff shouldn't be accessible, it leads to people linking it and expecting permanence
  157. # [03:00] <zcorpan> don't have cool stuff there
  158. # [03:02] <zcorpan> http://simon.html5.org/temp/program my gym program from last year, just started with it again now
  159. # [03:02] <zcorpan> in swedish
  160. # [03:04] <zcorpan> http://simon.html5.org/temp/browsers/ icons used in the web-apps-tracker
  161. # [03:04] <annevk> heh, collegue of dhyatt proposes dhyatt and then people wonder whether dhyatt actually agreed to it...
  162. # [03:04] <annevk> i suppose it's possible he didn't...
  163. # [03:05] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  164. # [03:05] <zcorpan> not when the mail proposing it says "he has said he's willing to do it"
  165. # [03:06] <annevk> oh right
  166. # [03:06] <annevk> guess that tells how closely I read some of my e-mail initially
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  169. # [03:23] * moeffju[Away] is now known as moeffju
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  171. # [03:34] <zcorpan> Lachy: http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Asimon.html5.org%2Ftemp should bring up anything "cool" i've hidden there :)
  172. # [03:34] * Dashiva links to hsivonen's checker using valid-html5 image. Go precedent!
  173. # [03:34] * zcorpan doesn't think that's a good idea
  174. # [03:34] <Lachy> why not?
  175. # [03:35] <Dashiva> "Some markup validation/checking services give out a small badge for advertising that a document passed. This service does not."
  176. # [03:36] <zcorpan> stickies linking to a checker generally gives the impression that the checker result is some sort of status indicator
  177. # [03:37] <zcorpan> the valid html5 image was mostly a joke on my part and i think hsivonen wants his tool to be a QA tool, not a status indicator
  178. # [03:37] <annevk> ooh, security
  179. # [03:38] <Dashiva> I fully agree, but that doesn't stop me from being subversive
  180. # [03:39] <zcorpan> fair enough :)
  181. # [03:40] <zcorpan> although i'd suggest that the link point to whatwg.org/html5 if anything
  182. # [03:40] * annevk wonders when Web Forms 2 will be merged with HTML5
  183. # [03:42] <zcorpan> Dashiva: also see first paragraph in (4) in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007JanMar/0433.html
  184. # [03:43] <Dashiva> I think the page is valid pretty much anything in its current state
  185. # [03:44] <Dashiva> Well, the <img> tag doesn't have the / needed for xhtml
  186. # [03:44] <annevk> <img> can also be <img></img> in XHTML
  187. # [03:44] <annevk> fwiw
  188. # [03:45] * gavins is now known as gavin
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  191. # [04:06] * moeffju is now known as moeffju[ZzZz]
  192. # [04:08] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/mid/op.tq008yhnsmjzpq@acer3010.lan
  193. # [04:08] * Quits: bzed (n=bzed@dslb-084-059-127-023.pools.arcor-ip.net) ("Leaving")
  194. # [04:10] <annevk> http://therealcrisp.xs4all.nl/blog/2007/04/22/html5-microsoft-and-the-opt-in-catch/
  195. # [04:11] <annevk> http://labs.google.com/goog411/
  196. # [04:26] <annevk> + <h4>Origin</h4>
  197. # [04:26] <annevk> + <!-- Hallowed are the Ori -->
  198. # [04:26] <annevk> heh
  199. # [04:33] <Lachy> annevk, which page had that ori comment in it?
  200. # [04:34] <annevk> HTML5?
  201. # [04:34] <annevk> Hixie defined origin for scripts
  202. # [04:41] <Lachy> That solution on crisp's blog won't work as-is, we tried it already
  203. # [04:42] <Lachy> Though, my latest response from Chris (off list) indicates that he'd listen to a solution that starts out as an opt-in and can transition to an opt-out, once the dependence on opt-ins isn't required
  204. # [04:43] <zcorpan> i do think making [if IE] return false in ie8 would help them not breaking things, but he didn't reply to that suggestion. perhaps i should bug him about that again
  205. # [04:43] <annevk> it requires too many fixes
  206. # [04:43] <annevk> in one go
  207. # [04:44] <zcorpan> then in ie9
  208. # [04:44] <annevk> if we got the proper testsuites ready by then...
  209. # [04:44] * zcorpan will be working on that this summer
  210. # [04:45] <Lachy> I think the only way we're going to get Chris to compromise is to make HTML4/XHTML1 DOCTYPEs require an opt-in, and use the change in DOCTYPE in HTML to convert to an opt-out system
  211. # [04:46] <annevk> we shouldn't have to do much
  212. # [04:46] <annevk> this would only apply to IE
  213. # [04:46] <annevk> i hope
  214. # [04:46] <Lachy> that way, IE can use the time it takes to transition from HTML4/XHTML1 to HTML5 to improve its standards support and get to a point where it's close enough to interop with outhers, to not require an explicit opt-in
  215. # [04:46] <Lachy> yes, it would be an IE only opt-in/out
  216. # [04:47] <annevk> personally I want to keep fixing quirks mode, documenting quirks, etc.
  217. # [04:47] <Lachy> yeah, that would be good, but there's no chance IE is going to change it's quirks mode at all
  218. # [04:48] <zcorpan> in any case, it should be possible for authors to trigger a "latest standards mode", author against opera/firefox/safari, then work around bugs in current IEs without making assumptions about IE.next
  219. # [04:48] <zcorpan> annevk: yeah, me too
  220. # [04:53] * annevk wonders if http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2006/waf/widgets/Overview.html?content-type=text/html;%20charset=utf-8#autodiscovery is good enough to define a new link type
  221. # [04:55] * zcorpan thinks it is
  222. # [04:56] <zcorpan> or how is it handled today in opera?
  223. # [04:56] <Lachy> annevk, typo: "...to create an hyperlink" s/an/a/
  224. # [04:58] <zcorpan> ah, Content-Type: application/x-opera-widgets
  225. # [04:59] <annevk> I'm pretty sure it's always an before h...
  226. # [04:59] <Lachy> no
  227. # [04:59] <zcorpan> depends on how it's pronounced
  228. # [04:59] <zcorpan> an hour
  229. # [04:59] <Lachy> it doesn't depend on the letter, it depends on the sound
  230. # [05:01] <annevk> yeah nm me
  231. # [05:02] <zcorpan> annevk: if there is application/widget, why is there a need for rel="widget"?
  232. # [05:02] <zcorpan> surely the opera widget page works fine with only the mime type
  233. # [05:03] <Lachy> same reason there is rel=feed
  234. # [05:03] <zcorpan> for UI?
  235. # [05:03] <Lachy> the rel allows the UA to detect the widget before fetching it and offer a better UI
  236. # [05:04] <zcorpan> ok
  237. # [05:04] <annevk> right
  238. # [05:12] <annevk> fixed the typo and some other stuff fwiw
  239. # [05:14] <annevk> might be back later... food
  240. # [05:24] * Joins: aroben (n=adamrobe@adsl-70-231-234-224.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net)
  241. # [05:36] * Quits: annevk (n=annevk@203.17.70.52) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  242. # [05:47] <Hixie> anyone got any pet bugs in browsers that they'd want fixed? any bugs. any browsers.
  243. # [05:47] <Hixie> ideally a DOM2 or HTML4 bug, maybe CSS2.1
  244. # [05:47] <Hixie> or JavaScript
  245. # [05:50] <Lachy> I want to see display: table-* properties fixed to work with less bugs in FF
  246. # [05:51] * zcorpan points to http://simon.html5.org/test/ie7b2-bugs/
  247. # [05:51] * Hixie takes notes
  248. # [05:52] <Hixie> Lachy: any specifics in mind?
  249. # [05:52] <Hixie> zcorpan: wow cool thanks
  250. # [05:52] <zcorpan> np
  251. # [05:53] <Lachy> see my site in FF. Sometimes the columns don't work properly, but can usually be fixed by reloading
  252. # [05:54] <zcorpan> Lachy: oh yeah i get that too on some layouts
  253. # [05:54] <zcorpan> very unpredictable
  254. # [05:54] <Hixie> weird
  255. # [05:54] <Hixie> http://simon.html5.org/test/ie7b2-bugs/003.html <-- wtf is IE doing here
  256. # [05:55] <Lachy> also, if you create elements with JS and insert them into the DOM with display: table-cell; applied, it doesn't work well either
  257. # [05:55] <zcorpan> Hixie: no idea
  258. # [05:55] <Lachy> I'll create a test case
  259. # [05:56] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  260. # [05:57] <zcorpan> Hixie: also http://simon.html5.org/test/opera/
  261. # [05:57] <Hixie> cool, more tests
  262. # [06:00] <Lachy> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C%21DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cstyle%3E%0Adiv%20%7B%20display%3A%20table-cell%3B%20border%3A%201px%20solid%20blue%3B%20%7D%0A%3C/style%3E%0A%3Cp%3EThese%20columns%20are%20in%20the%20markup%3A%0A%3Cdiv%3Ecolumn1%3C/div%3E%0A%3Cdiv%3Ecolumn2%3C/div%3E%0A%3Cdiv%3Ecolumn3%3C/div%3E%0A%0A%3Cp%3EThese%20columns%20are%20created%20by%20a%20script%3A%0A%0A%3Cscript%3E%0Avar%20div%3B%0Afor%20%28va
  263. # [06:00] <Lachy> r%20i%20%3D%201%3B%20i%20%3C%3D%203%3B%20i++%29%20%7B%0A%20%20div%20%3D%20document.createElement%28%22div%22%29%3B%0A%20%20div.innerHTML%20%3D%20%22column%20%22%20+%20i%3B%0A%20%20document.body.appendChild%28div%29%3B%0A%7D%0A%3C/script%3E%0A
  264. # [06:00] <Hixie> hit the upload link
  265. # [06:00] <Lachy> I uploaded that to the DOM viewer clipboard, so you can just download it
  266. # [06:00] <Hixie> cool
  267. # [06:00] <Hixie> got it
  268. # [06:03] * Joins: annevk (n=annevk@203.17.70.52)
  269. # [06:05] * annevk wouldn't mind interop on feature "x"
  270. # [06:06] <Hixie> any specifics in mind?
  271. # [06:07] <annevk> innerHTML
  272. # [06:07] <annevk> HTML table model
  273. # [06:07] <Hixie> zcorpan: these are really good tests
  274. # [06:07] <zcorpan> :)
  275. # [06:08] <annevk> heh, why do you think we hired him?
  276. # [06:08] * annevk doesn't have much tests for either of his suggestions
  277. # [06:11] <annevk> what are the feature requests for?
  278. # [06:12] * annevk wonders why Opera doesn't do the dynamically generated <div> stuff correctly
  279. # [06:13] <annevk> ooh, Firefox has problems too
  280. # [06:13] <Lachy> annevk, are you talking about the test I made? What does opera get wrong?
  281. # [06:13] <annevk> some build i have doesn't render the generated divs at all
  282. # [06:13] <zcorpan> same here
  283. # [06:14] <annevk> actually, all builds so far...
  284. # [06:14] <Hixie> i'm preparing for the writing of acid3
  285. # [06:14] <Lachy> that's weird. It renders them as soon as I click download, but they disappear after the source is edited
  286. # [06:14] <Hixie> trying to get bugs lined up
  287. # [06:14] <annevk> (this would be covered by my "HTML table model" suggestion above which really should be named "HTML table layout model")
  288. # [06:14] <Lachy> oh, awesome!
  289. # [06:15] <Hixie> especially interested in DOM tests
  290. # [06:15] <Hixie> and JS
  291. # [06:15] <Lachy> when do you expect acid3 to be released?
  292. # [06:16] <Hixie> when it's ready
  293. # [06:16] <Lachy> fair enough
  294. # [06:16] <Hixie> http://hixie.ch/www/tests/evil/acid/003/ is where things will happen at first
  295. # [06:16] <annevk> http://tc.labs.opera.com/html/canvas/getContext/2d/ still shows quite some differences between browsers
  296. # [06:16] <annevk> although I suppose <canvas> may be too new
  297. # [06:17] <Hixie> yeah this is going to cover only things that were specced around 2003 or earlier
  298. # [06:17] <annevk> k
  299. # [06:17] <annevk> "PNG that contains some HTML"?!
  300. # [06:18] * Quits: psa (n=yomode@posom.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  301. # [06:18] <annevk> IE still has a bunch of CSS parsing issues
  302. # [06:19] <annevk> http://annevankesteren.nl/2007/02/ie7-css-hacks contains a list of copy & paste testcases
  303. # [06:20] <annevk> oh, \n\r in document.write() and scripts in general might be good
  304. # [06:20] <annevk> or \r\n whatever it is
  305. # [06:21] <Hixie> has to be only things that can be seriously argued out of existing specs, unfortunately
  306. # [06:23] <zcorpan> having ie support the events model correctly would be nice, i think... and addEventListener, event.target, etc.
  307. # [06:23] <Hixie> yeah, gonna test that for sure
  308. # [06:23] <annevk> handling of <i><b></i> is to new too?
  309. # [06:23] <annevk> or is it too new too?
  310. # [06:24] <Lachy> I didn't realise FF3 passed acid2 already. That's awesome! :-)
  311. # [06:24] <Hixie> parsing of html is too new if it's error handling
  312. # [06:24] <Hixie> Lachy: yeah, hence it being time for acid3
  313. # [06:24] <zcorpan> Lachy: better late than never :)
  314. # [06:26] <zcorpan> getAttribute("for") in IE
  315. # [06:26] <Lachy> Hixie, add this: <!--[if IE]>FAIL<![endif]--> :-)
  316. # [06:26] <zcorpan> (IE needs getAttribute("htmlFor"))
  317. # [06:27] <Lachy> same for "className"
  318. # [06:27] <zcorpan> yeah
  319. # [06:27] <annevk> <style type="">
  320. # [06:27] <Lachy> and there's something else too
  321. # [06:27] * Lachy checking the DOM ref...
  322. # [06:27] <annevk> versus <style type="unknown"> versus <style> versus <style type="text/css">
  323. # [06:28] <annevk> maybe in the CSSOM? for float? which becomes .cssFloat as attribute
  324. # [06:28] <Lachy> I think getAttribute("http-equiv"); also has the problem
  325. # [06:28] <zcorpan> likely
  326. # [06:29] <zcorpan> using getAttribute on event handler attributes doesn't work right either iirc
  327. # [06:29] <annevk> events on body / document / window
  328. # [06:31] <Lachy> event object isn't passed to the handler in IE, needs window.event
  329. # [06:31] <annevk> already mentioned
  330. # [06:31] <Lachy> oh, sorry
  331. # [06:33] <Lachy> http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Core_JavaScript_1.5_Reference:Global_Objects:Array#Methods some of those aren't supported in IE
  332. # [06:33] <annevk> i suppose investigating in what Dean Edwards has to work around in his library might give some good suggestions on to what to include
  333. # [06:34] <Lachy> I assume you'll test the NS methods in the DOM too?
  334. # [06:35] <Hixie> already looked at dean's stuff
  335. # [06:35] <Hixie> nah, no point testing namespaces really
  336. # [06:35] <Lachy> ok
  337. # [06:35] <Hixie> since we don't particularly want anyone to use them
  338. # [06:35] <Lachy> alright
  339. # [06:36] <annevk> nasty SVG bits?
  340. # [06:39] <Lachy> Hixie, <link rel="icon"> - IE uses rel="shortcut icon"
  341. # [06:40] <Lachy> although, technically it wasn't specified till recently, icons have been widely supported for a while
  342. # [06:45] <Hixie> yeah but there's no spec that says it has to be "icon"
  343. # [06:46] <Lachy> I suppose you're not counting HTML5 then?
  344. # [06:46] <annevk> before 2003
  345. # [06:46] <annevk> HTML5 _started_ in 2004
  346. # [06:46] <Lachy> I know that, but it's been widely supported for much longer than that
  347. # [06:46] <annevk> the other requirement is for it to be in a spec
  348. # [06:47] <Hixie> unless i can point at a REC with clear conformance criteria, it doesn't count
  349. # [06:47] <Lachy> ok
  350. # [06:47] <Hixie> since you can argue that it isn't required for compliance
  351. # [06:47] <annevk> that leaves out testing HTML features :p
  352. # [06:50] * Quits: aroben (n=adamrobe@adsl-70-231-234-224.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net)
  353. # [06:52] <Hixie> mostly, yeah
  354. # [06:53] <virtuelv_> One thing that definetly would need to go into acid3 is how 'apply' works
  355. # [06:54] <Hixie> which spec?
  356. # [06:54] <Lachy> virtuelv_, in JavaScript?
  357. # [06:54] <virtuelv_> Lachy: yup
  358. # [06:54] <virtuelv_> I've run into cases where the behavior is rather exotic across browser
  359. # [06:55] <virtuelv_> +s
  360. # [06:55] <Lachy> is it defined in ECMA 262?
  361. # [06:57] <virtuelv_> iirc, yes
  362. # [06:57] <virtuelv_> lemme check, though
  363. # [06:57] <Lachy> yep, it's on page 87 (section 15.3.4.3
  364. # [06:58] <Hixie> if you can give me a testcase and explain how it tests behaviour described in the spec i can add it, sure
  365. # [07:00] <Hixie> anne, wouldn't rel=widget be better as a type="" value?
  366. # [07:00] <annevk> similar to rel=feed
  367. # [07:01] <Lachy> Hixie, why?
  368. # [07:01] <virtuelv_> Hixie: will do, bug me at the end of the coming week
  369. # [07:01] <Hixie> virtuelv_: k
  370. # [07:01] <Lachy> rel=widget is easier for authors to type and remember, compared with MIME types
  371. # [07:01] <Hixie> i guess
  372. # [07:02] <virtuelv_> inability to add stuff to the Element prototype is also, IMHO one thing browsers should get right in 2007
  373. # [07:03] <virtuelv_> s/in//
  374. # [07:03] <Hixie> unfortunately prototypes for elements aren't defined anywhere (yet)
  375. # [07:04] <Hixie> so that's not a standards compliance issues
  376. # [07:04] <Hixie> issue
  377. # [07:04] <annevk> It's more consistent with rel=stylesheet rel=feed etc. too. It means that authors have to learn one less trick (the trick that type= might lead to special handling too).
  378. # [07:04] <Lachy> but Elements are just Objects in ECMAScript, and Object is defined
  379. # [07:04] <virtuelv_> Hixie: that's rather unfortunate, really
  380. # [07:05] <Hixie> Lachy: if you can find a spec that says that, let me know :-)
  381. # [07:05] <Lachy> http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-Core/ecma-script-binding.html binds all the DOM objects to Object in ECMAScript
  382. # [07:06] <Lachy> ECMA 262 defines .prototype
  383. # [07:06] <Lachy> and it's how all other major browsers implement it, AFAIK
  384. # [07:07] <Hixie> but where does it say that the object has to have a prototype?
  385. # [07:08] <virtuelv_> Hixie: all objects that have constructors must have a prototype
  386. # [07:08] <Hixie> but Element doesn't have a constructor
  387. # [07:10] <virtuelv_> sigh. Neither does Node
  388. # [07:10] <Lachy> all Objects have constructors though. It inherits from Object, and so it has a constructor. It's just not available to scripts
  389. # [07:14] <annevk> but that Element is available somewhere in the global scope as attribute is also not defined
  390. # [07:20] <Lachy> border-collapse should be tested too (or was it tested in acid2 already?) http://lachy.id.au/dev/css/tests/bordercollapse/bordercollapse.html
  391. # [07:21] <Lachy> I think IE is the only one to fail those tests
  392. # [07:22] <Hixie> not really interested in css
  393. # [07:22] <Lachy> ok
  394. # [07:23] <annevk> location.hash when the page contains a single # is sometimes a compat issue iirc
  395. # [07:23] <annevk> oh, nm
  396. # [07:24] <Hixie> location was specced post 2003
  397. # [07:24] <Hixie> namely, last week
  398. # [07:24] * annevk was under the illusion location was somehow part of old dom specs
  399. # [07:24] <annevk> did you and Maciej agree that the Window spec will be merged into HTML5?
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  401. # [07:39] <Lachy> OMG WTF? "Long release cycles are a very good thing" on public-html
  402. # [07:40] <annevk> citing IE6 as an example
  403. # [07:40] <Lachy> Frequent releases of increasingly buggy browsers may be a bad thing, but the quicker we can get more standards compliant browsers into the market the better
  404. # [08:04] <Hixie> annevk: haven't asked
  405. # [08:05] <annevk> k
  406. # [08:05] <Hixie> annevk: but since Window was no longer being developped, and I needed to spec things that depended on it...
  407. # [08:05] <annevk> yeah, just wondering
  408. # [08:06] <annevk> now the chairs sort of "accepted" HTML5 will you merge in WF2? or let dhyatt do it? :p
  409. # [08:14] <Hixie> they have?
  410. # [08:16] <Lachy> Hixie, Chris responded fairly positively about the HTML5 spec
  411. # [08:17] <Hixie> uri?
  412. # [08:17] <Lachy> http://www.w3.org/mid/5C276AFCCD083E4F94BD5C2DA883F05A27D9CDDC38@tk5-exmlt-w600.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com
  413. # [08:20] <annevk> whoa, schepers is asking for a third editor...
  414. # [08:20] <Lachy> annevk, I was just typing the same thing :-)
  415. # [08:21] <Lachy> 2 editors is more than enough
  416. # [08:23] <Hixie> Lachy: it wasn't clear to me that he was accepting the proposal maciej put forward exactly. but yeah, that was positive regarding the spec itself.
  417. # [08:23] <Hixie> (my reply was http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Apr/1241.html)
  418. # [08:24] <Hixie> i'm curious as to what people think "editor" means
  419. # [08:25] <Hixie> why does it matter what the opinions of the editor are?
  420. # [08:25] <Lachy> yeah, I don't understand why he wants the whatwg to stop either
  421. # [08:26] <Hixie> chris?
  422. # [08:26] <Lachy> yes
  423. # [08:30] <Lachy> I have no idea how I should respond to this about selectors API http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapi/2007Apr/0025.html
  424. # [08:30] <Lachy> I already said it's not wise to explicitly introduce undefined behaviour
  425. # [08:32] <annevk> Does anyone know what the last dot http://www.w3.org./ can possibly do?
  426. # [08:33] <Hixie> Lachy: well, what you have now doesn't guarentee interop, so what they're asking for doesn't really change that
  427. # [08:33] <Hixie> annevk: guarentees you're not going to do local dns lookup (with a suffix, e.g.)
  428. # [08:33] <annevk> yeah, just say that authors should not assume a specific prefix invocation algorithm or something
  429. # [08:33] <Hixie> bit like the leading / in /foo/bar
  430. # [08:34] <Hixie> saying authors "should not" is just a waste of time :-)
  431. # [08:34] <Hixie> won't do anything
  432. # [08:34] <Hixie> especially for APIs
  433. # [08:34] <annevk> should create a side-effect resolver...
  434. # [08:34] <Lachy> but I don't see what problems it solves by me taking it out
  435. # [08:35] <annevk> it makes things simpler
  436. # [08:35] <Lachy> so you think I should?
  437. # [08:35] <annevk> well, i was convinced
  438. # [08:35] <annevk> so yes
  439. # [08:36] <annevk> it's unfortunate jonas is so late with catching up with e-mail otherwise I would have fixed this ages ago (or never specced it)
  440. # [08:37] <Lachy> I suppose it doesn't really help authors much knowing their function is only going to be invoked once per prefix either
  441. # [08:38] <annevk> i suppose it's nice to point it out in interop concerns so people who are designing something similar know what to do
  442. # [08:39] <annevk> (same for people who wonder why it differs between browsers)
  443. # [08:48] <Hixie> annevk: "the ToASCII algorithm must apply successfully (without errors)"
  444. # [08:48] <Hixie> how can it fail?
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  452. # [09:21] <Lachy> Hixie, this has a good list of IE bugs you could add to acid3 http://easy-designs.stikipad.com/ie-next-wishlist
  453. # [09:23] <Hixie> IE bugs are easy to find :-)
  454. # [09:23] <Hixie> it's other browsers that are the problem
  455. # [09:24] <Lachy> right
  456. # [09:24] <Hixie> in fact, i've added all of _one_ test to the page so far and it breaks in IE drastically.
  457. # [09:25] <Lachy> yeah, I saw that.
  458. # [09:25] <Lachy> I don't understand what causes it to break though
  459. # [09:26] <Lachy> is it because there's no font-size specified for body?
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  461. # [09:27] <Hixie> i'm guessing it doesn't support inline-block
  462. # [09:27] <Hixie> though i thought it did
  463. # [09:28] <Lachy> it does for inline level elements only
  464. # [09:30] <Lachy> do you have some sort of plan for the final rendering, or are you just making it up as you go?
  465. # [09:35] <Hixie> it'll look mostly like it does now in firefox
  466. # [09:35] <Hixie> but i'm making it up as i go along
  467. # [09:35] <Hixie> and i want to add animation
  468. # [09:45] <Hixie> why is opera not using arial
  469. # [09:45] <Hixie> wtf
  470. # [09:48] <Lachy> heh, I keep forgetting to switch to FF3 when looking at test cases :-)
  471. # [09:49] <Lachy> maybe opera doesn't support :root
  472. # [09:50] <Hixie> seems unlikely
  473. # [09:50] <Hixie> but maybe
  474. # [10:14] <Hixie> last chance to see what the test is intended to look like before i break it
  475. # [10:14] <Hixie> http://www.hixie.ch/tests/evil/acid/003/index.html
  476. # [10:14] <Lachy> yeah, I just looked at it. It looks ok
  477. # [10:15] <Hixie> it already shows bugs in every browser except firefox
  478. # [10:15] <Hixie> and the only reason it works in firefox is i changed 'document' to 'window'
  479. # [10:15] <Hixie> for hte load event
  480. # [10:15] <Lachy> are you going to change it back to document?
  481. # [10:15] <Hixie> yes
  482. # [10:15] <Hixie> there's no window in 2003 standards
  483. # [10:16] <Lachy> yeah
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  489. # [11:54] <Hixie> http://www.hixie.ch/tests/evil/acid/003/ and http://www.hixie.ch/tests/evil/acid/003/reference.html
  490. # [11:54] <Hixie> should look the same everywhere
  491. # [11:54] <Hixie> i haven't even tried adding tests yet and they don't
  492. # [11:54] * Lachy checks every browser he has...
  493. # [11:56] <Lachy> nice, FF3 gets it right :-)
  494. # [11:56] <Hixie> it does?
  495. # [11:56] <Lachy> it did a second ago, not now
  496. # [11:56] <Hixie> i just get 0%
  497. # [11:56] <Hixie> oh you probably tested it before i switched it back to document
  498. # [11:56] <Lachy> yeah
  499. # [11:57] <Hixie> the reference rendering should be pixel-perfect, including font rasterisation
  500. # [11:58] <Hixie> but really the reference rendering is a test on to its own
  501. # [11:58] <Lachy> Opera 9 is doing surprisingly poorly
  502. # [11:59] <Hixie> opera 9 is hitting two bugs that i know of
  503. # [11:59] <Hixie> one, it's getting screwed by not having a <head> in the DOM, because one of the selectors goes through the <head>
  504. # [11:59] <Hixie> and two, it doesn't seem to do :root
  505. # [12:01] * Hixie throws in some :first-child/:last-child tests
  506. # [12:01] <Lachy> which selector goes through head?
  507. # [12:01] <Hixie> *:first-child + * > * > p
  508. # [12:01] <Hixie> that's equivalent to head + body > div > p
  509. # [12:01] <Lachy> ah, I see
  510. # [12:02] <Hixie> as in, the only ps that it matches will match because the first simple selector there matches the head
  511. # [12:02] <Hixie> and since opera has no head...
  512. # [12:05] <Hixie> anyway i should go to bed
  513. # [12:05] <Hixie> nn
  514. # [12:05] <Lachy> cya
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  521. # [13:26] <gsnedders> anyone know what percentage of XHTML docs are served as XML?
  522. # [13:26] <gsnedders> well, per-mille may be more useful, actually :P
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  530. # [15:33] <zcorpan> Hixie: acid2 was easier to see if it was correct or not (without looking at the reference rendering)
  531. # [15:39] <hasather> zcorpan: agreed
  532. # [15:39] <Lachy> zcorpan, any suggestions for a better picture?
  533. # [15:39] * Quits: Toolskyn (n=toolskyn@adsl-dc-266ef.adsl.wanadoo.nl) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  534. # [15:40] <hsivonen> what test are you talking about?
  535. # [15:40] <Lachy> acid 3
  536. # [15:40] <Lachy> http://www.hixie.ch/tests/evil/acid/003/
  537. # [15:40] <Lachy> it's still a work in progress though
  538. # [15:42] <zcorpan> Lachy: hm, dunno... a questionmark inside a circle?
  539. # [15:42] * zcorpan hides
  540. # [15:42] <Lachy> I thought maybe a cat
  541. # [15:43] * Joins: SpookyET (i=user@75.138.70.34)
  542. # [16:01] <zcorpan> "Awareness of future trends." ?
  543. # [16:10] <hsivonen> zcorpan: indeed
  544. # [16:15] <hsivonen> It'll be interesting to see the diff for Web Apps 1.0 from the day the HTML WG was announced to the day the WG accepts HTML5 as the starting point (assuming that happens)
  545. # [16:24] <SpookyET> Opera allready supports some of it according to Wikipedia.
  546. # [16:26] <Lachy> SpookyET, yes, it has support for Web Forms 2.0 and a few things from Web Apps 1.0 like <canvas> and <event-source>
  547. # [16:29] <hsivonen> SpookyET: I meant it'll be interesting to see how much real work Hixie and the folks on the WHATWG list got done while public-html generated heat
  548. # [16:32] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@84-216-42-223.sprayadsl.telenor.se) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  549. # [16:33] <SpookyET> hsivonen: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_layout_engines_(WHATWG)
  550. # [16:33] <SpookyET> see all that green on the right?
  551. # [16:33] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@84-216-40-169.sprayadsl.telenor.se)
  552. # [16:33] <Lachy> SpookyET, what's your point? we know that already
  553. # [16:36] <SpookyET> Lachy: I was talking to hsivonen
  554. # [16:36] <Lachy> I realise that, but he knows too
  555. # [16:37] <SpookyET> Let him speak for himself.
  556. # [16:39] <Lachy> I'm trying to determine what your point is by telling people things we already know?
  557. # [16:40] <zcorpan> hsivonen: yeah, that's something to blog about :)
  558. # [16:48] <Dashiva> At the moment it looks like a lot of colorblind scandinavian flags in Opera
  559. # [16:48] <hsivonen> SpookyET: I don't understand what point you are trying to make to me
  560. # [16:48] <SpookyET> No point. I was stating a fact.
  561. # [16:49] <hsivonen> ok
  562. # [16:49] <Lachy> you can get it to work in Firefox 3 if you just change document.addEventListener to window.addEventListener. (that is, until Hixie adds more tests to it later)
  563. # [16:51] <hsivonen> gotta respect the people who send patches for Lynx. last time I looked the source wasn't pretty
  564. # [16:54] <Dashiva> Acid3 uses HTML 4.0 doctype... am I missing something, or was it a random choice?
  565. # [16:55] <zcorpan> Dashiva: Hixie probably copied it from damowmow.com or something
  566. # [16:55] <hsivonen> that's what happened with Acid2, IIRC
  567. # [16:56] <zcorpan> or wait, damowmow uses 4.01
  568. # [16:56] <zcorpan> then hixie.ch or something :)
  569. # [16:58] <hsivonen> the comment in the damowmow source is funny
  570. # [16:58] <zcorpan> heh
  571. # [16:59] <SpookyET> Adobe's Apollo is pretty interesting. I just stumbled upon it. It seems to be a competitor to Microsofts XAML.
  572. # [17:00] <hsivonen> I don't understand the Adobe-internal politics that produced Apollo considering that they have Flash
  573. # [17:00] <SpookyET> It uses Flash, Acrobat, HTML, CSS, JavaScript.
  574. # [17:00] <zcorpan> the new Ajax?
  575. # [17:01] <SpookyET> The cool thing about Apollo is that it uses WebKit, while Microsoft's solution uses IE's rendering engine.
  576. # [17:01] <SpookyET> http://www.niallkennedy.com/blog/archives/2007/03/adobe-apollo.html
  577. # [17:01] <SpookyET> zcorpan: It's not AJAX. It's designed to merge desktop and web apps.
  578. # [17:02] <Lachy> it's like their own version of Widgets
  579. # [17:02] <SpookyET> It's not widgets, but full apps.
  580. # [17:02] <zcorpan> SpookyET: ok
  581. # [17:03] <SpookyET> https://ssl.blogs.zdnet.com/blogs/Stewart/images/apollo_mac_library_large.png
  582. # [17:04] <SpookyET> It looks like you create a hybrid desktop + web app instead of a desktop client that connects to a web service.
  583. # [17:04] <Lachy> Interesting. I just found out that for DOCTYPE sniffing, IE ignores the language code at the end of <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">, whereas in FF it needs to be EN or it triggers standards mode
  584. # [17:05] <hsivonen> Lachy: interesting indeed. I wonder why the IE team chose to look inside the identifier
  585. # [17:05] <Dashiva> They're big on localization? :)
  586. # [17:05] <hsivonen> Lachy: Gecko lowercases the string and compares it against a list of strings
  587. # [17:05] <Lachy> probably because there are silly people around who change the "EN" to their own native langauge
  588. # [17:06] <Lachy> it makes sense to do what IE does
  589. # [17:06] <hsivonen> Lachy: yeah, but shouldn't those silly people get the quirks mode
  590. # [17:06] <Lachy> yes, they do in IE. They don't in FF, that's my point
  591. # [17:06] <hsivonen> Lachy: considering that sniffing is a heuristic for deciding if the author had clue
  592. # [17:08] <Philip`> I'd like a "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN-GB" with <centre> and <font colour="grey">
  593. # [17:08] <Lachy> and in IE, the number needs to be 2, 3 or 4 to trigger quirks mode (decimal points ignored)
  594. # [17:09] <zcorpan> ie's doctype sniffing is insane. the way the system id also matters iirc
  595. # [17:09] <zcorpan> er, the say the system id is written...
  596. # [17:09] * zcorpan -> food
  597. # [17:10] * Quits: Toolskyn88 (n=toolskyn@adsl-dc-266ef.adsl.wanadoo.nl) (Remote closed the connection)
  598. # [17:10] <Lachy> Philip`, the langauge code is basically irrelevant even in SGML. It's supposed to refer to the language that the DTD is written in, but I have no idea why that's relevant at all
  599. # [17:14] <Philip`> (Incidentally, I was actually surprised when seeing that CSS3 Color supports "grey" and that it actually works in browsers - I'm certain it used to be interpreted as "green" in the past (like, uh, Netscape 3 or something))
  600. # [17:15] <Lachy> wow
  601. # [17:15] <Dashiva> I remember some early Opera canvas bug which interpreted random strings as colors. E.g. "bogus" became pink, if I recall correctly
  602. # [17:16] <Philip`> I just want to know how anybody is ever going to implement the "flavor" colour
  603. # [17:16] <hasather> "crap" became brown in IE before, I think. Dunno if that still works
  604. # [17:17] <Lachy> hasather, yep, still works!
  605. # [17:17] <Lachy> bogus becomes ping in IE too!
  606. # [17:18] <Dashiva> I suspect it has to do with trying to interpret it as hex, but the details elude me
  607. # [17:19] <Lachy> it seems that it throws away any letters other than [A-Fa-f]
  608. # [17:21] <Lachy> then replaces them with 0, so "bogus" becomes "b00000"
  609. # [17:21] <Lachy> and "crap" becomes "c0a000"
  610. # [17:22] <Lachy> I wonder if that's specced in HTML5...
  611. # [17:22] <Philip`> It work for "bogo" but not "bog" - it seems to only do that for >= 4 characters
  612. # [17:22] <Lachy> for the various color attributes
  613. # [17:23] <Dashiva> If there's a site relying on that, I will personally hunt down the author
  614. # [17:23] <Philip`> At least in FF3, it's quirks-only
  615. # [17:23] <SpookyET> Maybe, it should support non-us spelling:-)
  616. # [17:23] <Dashiva> What does 'beos' give you, Lachy?
  617. # [17:23] <SpookyET> background-colour
  618. # [17:24] <Lachy> Dashiva, "beos" gives "be0000"
  619. # [17:24] <Philip`> Maybe the browser developers were trying to be nice to authors who misread books with bad fonts, and tried writing <body bgcolor="ffooff">?
  620. # [17:24] <Lachy> SpookyET, doesn't work for CSS, only for the HTML attributes
  621. # [17:24] <Dashiva> Lachy: Hmm, in the bug I mentioned it became green
  622. # [17:25] <Philip`> (Quirks-only in Opera 9 too)
  623. # [17:25] <Lachy> Dashiva, which bug?
  624. # [17:25] <Lachy> and which browser?
  625. # [17:27] <Dashiva> Opera in the first stages of canvas support
  626. # [17:27] <Dashiva> Just after the "blue is red on windows" bug :)
  627. # [17:27] <Philip`> (Oh, it's doing bo=#b00000, bog=#0b0000, bogo=#b00000, and cra=#0c0a00 - I can see why it's called "quirks"...)
  628. # [17:28] <Lachy> Philip`, which browser are you getting those results?
  629. # [17:28] <Lachy> there shouldn't be a leading 0 on the values for bog and cra
  630. # [17:28] <Philip`> Oh, that was Opera 9
  631. # [17:29] <Philip`> but FF3 doesn't do that
  632. # [17:29] <Philip`> (Yay, non-interoperability)
  633. # [17:30] <Philip`> (FF3 just gives #000000 for anything <= 3 characters, it seems)
  634. # [17:30] <Dashiva> Time to run a bruteforce scan of all possible combinations on 1-6 letters, then!
  635. # [17:31] <Lachy> Dashiva, you only need to do 3 to 6, and letters A-F and one other
  636. # [17:31] * Quits: SpookyET (i=user@75.138.70.34) ("Client Exiting")
  637. # [17:32] <Lachy> e.g. bgcolor="azz", "bzz", ...
  638. # [17:32] <Philip`> Lachy: Not quite that simple - Opera ignores up to one leading #, and any spaces
  639. # [17:32] * Joins: briansuda (n=briansud@dsl-219-147.hive.is)
  640. # [17:34] <Philip`> In Opera, "f f f f f" == #fffff0; in FF, it's #f00ff0 (?!)
  641. # [17:34] <Lachy> oh, 1 and 2 letters give weird results too
  642. # [17:36] <Lachy> Safari does it in standards mode
  643. # [17:38] <Philip`> With <body bgcolor=" f f f "> I get grey in FF, almost-black in Opera, and green in Konqueror
  644. # [17:41] <Philip`> zcorpan: You said you wanted to spec quirks mode? ;-)
  645. # [17:41] <Lachy> nice, <body bgcolor="rainbow"> give a diff colour in nearly every browser :-)
  646. # [17:43] <Philip`> http://lxr.mozilla.org/mozilla/source/gfx/src/nsColor.cpp#126
  647. # [17:43] <Philip`> so it always does black for <= 3 chars (excluding the optional leading #)
  648. # [17:43] <Lachy> someone want to check webkit source, it seems to be closer to IE
  649. # [18:32] * Quits: virtuelv_ (n=arve@ti132110a341-1121.bb.online.no) ("Leaving")
  650. # [18:48] <zcorpan> Philip`: yes, test cases welcome
  651. # [18:53] * Joins: SpookyET (i=user@75.138.70.34)
  652. # [18:53] <SpookyET> I keep getting disconnected.
  653. # [18:55] <SpookyET> Has anyone seen Flashtml? :-) www.pierinc.com Thank you for killing my scrollbar and back button. But, for a second, it fools you into thinking that it's html and dhtml animations.
  654. # [18:58] * Quits: briansuda (n=briansud@dsl-219-147.hive.is)
  655. # [18:58] * zcorpan will use http://del.icio.us/zcorpan/quirks to pile up quirks
  656. # [19:18] * Quits: SpookyET (i=user@75.138.70.34) ("Client Exiting")
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  664. # [20:36] <zcorpan> yay! ftp works again. i have *no* idea why it didn't work before
  665. # [20:44] * zcorpan considers moving valid-html5.png out of temp/
  666. # [20:51] <zcorpan> done
  667. # [21:21] * Joins: aroben (n=adamrobe@adsl-70-231-234-224.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net)
  668. # [21:32] <zcorpan> started to draft on my presentation http://simon.html5.org/temp/html5-geekmeet.html
  669. # [21:32] <zcorpan> (in swedish)
  670. # [21:34] <Philip`> "Cross-document messanging" - spurious n?
  671. # [21:34] <zcorpan> oops
  672. # [21:35] <zcorpan> fixed
  673. # [21:41] * hsivonen learns that boilerplate is boilerplate in Swedish :-)
  674. # [21:42] <zcorpan> probably isn't
  675. # [21:42] <zcorpan> don't know a good swedish word for it :)
  676. # [21:42] <hsivonen> zcorpan: looks good
  677. # [21:43] <zcorpan> thanks. have two canvas demos iframed, commented out for now
  678. # [21:51] <Philip`> Be careful that the second doesn't suck up all your CPU while you're trying to get on with the rest of the presentation :-)
  679. # [21:52] <zcorpan> yeah, fortunately it can be paused :)
  680. # [21:52] <zcorpan> not sure i'll use those at all though
  681. # [21:53] <zcorpan> but having a "3d" fps game in 2d canvas is cool, so i want to include it
  682. # [21:54] <Philip`> Oh, can it?
  683. # [21:54] <Philip`> Aha, the "pause" key - that makes sense
  684. # [21:54] <zcorpan> there's also a pause button
  685. # [21:55] <Philip`> Oh, okay, on the 84 version since I didn't remove the debug bit at the bottom
  686. # [21:56] * Quits: aroben (n=adamrobe@adsl-70-231-234-224.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net)
  687. # [21:57] <Philip`> (The 2d canvas is quite nasty for doing this 3d stuff in, though :-p )
  688. # [21:58] <Philip`> (It's nice that you can do it, but it isn't really playing to the strengths of the canvas)
  689. # [21:59] <zcorpan> indeed. it's like using GIF for video
  690. # [21:59] <Philip`> ((It is quite fun, though))
  691. # [22:01] <Philip`> Perhaps it's more like using ASCII art over Telnet for video
  692. # [22:02] <zcorpan> heh, ok
  693. # [22:04] <Philip`> (That reminds me, I did a (rubbish) text-based multiplayer deathmatch FPS game over the IRC protocol (though not a real IRC server) once - it would be nice to integrate that with the canvas code and get browser-based multiplayer deathmatch...)
  694. # [22:15] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@c-71-198-74-90.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  695. # [22:43] <Philip`> (Hixie: I think the spec has a spare > in Scripting/Origin with "<span>browsing context</span>>")
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  704. # Session Close: Mon Apr 23 00:00:00 2007

The end :)