/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-04-23 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Apr 23 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:09] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@dsl001-150-252.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  4. # [01:16] <Philip`> Hmm, createRadialGradient is pretty much entirely non-interoperable, which looks like fun...
  5. # [01:19] * moeffju is now known as moeffju[ZzZz]
  6. # [01:21] <Philip`> (Oh, actually, Firefox and Safari are pretty close for at least the portion of the image which they both draw, though Opera is totally crazy. (Maybe Opera is following the spec and the spec is crazy, but I haven't tried reading it yet...))
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  9. # [01:24] <Dashiva> radial gradients are crazy to begin with, if you ask me :)
  10. # [01:27] <Philip`> I wouldn't disagree with that :-)
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  12. # [01:28] <Philip`> I should have stopped after I reached linear gradients, because everything after that is hard :-(
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  15. # [02:00] <Dashiva> Hmm... acid3...
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  18. # [02:05] <Philip`> Aha, the spec is indeed crazy, though less so than the three incompatible implementations
  19. # [02:06] * Philip` tries to guess what should happen instead
  20. # [02:11] <Dashiva> I can't find anything limiting 'element' in CSS, so :first-child and related selectors would include <script>, <style>, etc, right?
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  22. # [02:31] <gavin> Is Matthew Raymond on IRC?
  23. # [02:35] <zcorpan> Dashiva: yes, any element that is in the dom tree is selectable
  24. # [02:35] <zcorpan> Dashiva: try * { display:block; margin:1em; border:solid; }
  25. # [02:36] <Dashiva> So that tricky selector seems to be checking for whether *:first-child selects an implicit head element
  26. # [02:36] <zcorpan> Dashiva: yes
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  32. # [03:13] <Hixie> can someone explain the paragraph with the highlighted text in http://groups.google.com/group/alt.html/browse_thread/thread/811af37c5b2c2a96/fda33e528fee9ad6?q=whatwg&rnum=1#fda33e528 ?
  33. # [03:16] <zcorpan> Hixie: seems he observes that you can work with namespaces in the dom in browsers, and hence the text/html serialization should have a declarative namespacing mechanism
  34. # [03:17] <Hixie> is that what he's saying?
  35. # [03:18] <Hixie> i couldn't really tell
  36. # [03:20] <zcorpan> can't say for sure but that's how i read it
  37. # [03:24] <zcorpan> it could also be that he thinks that the dom that comes from html parsing doesn't know about namespaces
  38. # [03:25] <Hixie> ah
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  40. # [03:35] <othermaciej> his message does seem confused
  41. # [03:38] <Philip`> (Ooh, excellent, I get totally different behaviour in Firefox 2 vs Firefox 3)
  42. # [03:38] <Philip`> (and I wouldn't be surprised if it changed on different OSes...)
  43. # [03:39] <zcorpan> Philip`: different results for what?
  44. # [03:40] <Philip`> Radial gradients in <canvas>
  45. # [03:40] <zcorpan> ok
  46. # [03:41] <Dashiva> Hixie: What's the status of the acid3 thing? Just a draft, work in progress, finished?
  47. # [03:41] <Philip`> (FF doesn't really do anything interesting with gradients, so I assume the changes are in Cairo somewhere - and I get a third behaviour when doing radial gradients with the version of Cairo I've got installed here)
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  49. # [03:42] <Hixie> Dashiva: extremely early work
  50. # [03:42] <Hixie> there are no tests in it yet, to start with
  51. # [03:42] <Hixie> :-)
  52. # [03:43] <Dashiva> Well, it reveals two opera bugs already
  53. # [03:44] <Hixie> cool
  54. # [03:45] <Dashiva> But I gather I shouldn't use it for bug reference just yet
  55. # [03:47] <Hixie> well feel free to narrow down the bugs to file them
  56. # [03:48] <Dashiva> They were both already reported, to my disappointment :)
  57. # [03:55] <Hixie> :-)
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  60. # [04:57] <Hixie> can anyone think of a way to programatically cause a bubbling event to fire without actually using dispatchEvent?
  61. # [04:58] <Hixie> HTMLInputElement.click() maybe
  62. # [04:59] <othermaciej> that should work
  63. # [04:59] <othermaciej> submitting a form would be another way
  64. # [05:00] <othermaciej> also DOMFocusIn / DOMFocusOut on focus changes
  65. # [05:02] <Hixie> i best avoid changing the focus or submitting a form during the test, i think :-)
  66. # [05:03] <othermaciej> well, you can cancel the form submission, perhaps in some way unlikely to fail; the click() method does seem simpler in any case
  67. # [05:03] <Hixie> yeah
  68. # [05:03] <Hixie> might do some form stuff
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  84. # [08:20] <Hixie> &&= isn't valid in JS?
  85. # [08:32] <othermaciej> I don't believe so
  86. # [08:32] <othermaciej> it's definitely not in C, and I don't think JS extends the set of update operators
  87. # [08:33] <Hixie> hm
  88. # [08:33] <Hixie> so how do you do a &&= b without evaluating a twice?
  89. # [08:33] <Hixie> var x = a; x = x && b?
  90. # [08:35] <othermaciej> yes
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  93. # [09:32] <met_> 2 spams http://blog.whatwg.org/charmod-norm-checking#comment-3616 http://blog.whatwg.org/feed-autodiscovery#comment-3609
  94. # [09:32] <Hixie> do you have a blog account?
  95. # [09:33] <Hixie> we should just make you a moderator or whatever it is that has access to get rid of spam :-)
  96. # [09:33] <Hixie> Lachy should be able to hook you up
  97. # [09:34] <met_> don't have account
  98. # [09:34] * met_ is just registering
  99. # [09:41] <Lachy> hey met_, I can set you up with admin rights if you like
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  102. # [09:43] * met_ ok
  103. # [09:43] <met_> login is met
  104. # [09:44] <Lachy> I know, I got the email when you registered
  105. # [09:44] <met_> 8-)
  106. # [09:44] <Lachy> I upgraded you to Editor. That should give you sufficient rights to moderate comments, I believe
  107. # [09:44] <Lachy> if not, let me know
  108. # [09:45] <othermaciej> Lachy: obviously the blog needs a non-WHATWG Editor
  109. # [09:45] <Lachy> lol
  110. # [09:45] <Lachy> if there are any nomineeds, I'll consider them for the role also
  111. # [09:45] <met_> see 'Delete comment' in admin, fine
  112. # [09:45] <Lachy> *nominees
  113. # [09:46] <Lachy> can you access the moderation queue?
  114. # [09:46] <Lachy> in Manage > Awaiting Moderation
  115. # [09:48] <met_> yes I see, it's empty now
  116. # [09:48] <Lachy> yep
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  123. # [11:22] <hsivonen> hmm. Unicode 5.0.0 still isn't online. the ETA is in May. is it just me or wasn't the ETA supposed to be in March?
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  127. # [11:59] <krijnh> http://xhtml.se/2007/04/20/im-not-arguing-im-just-making-fun-of-them/#comment-1358 - haha
  128. # [12:00] <krijnh> rel="nofollow" removed jarvklo ;)
  129. # [12:14] <hsivonen> yeah, the channel should be considered as public as the mailing list
  130. # [12:14] <hsivonen> since it is
  131. # [12:14] <krijnh> Yeah
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  141. # [14:08] * hsivonen learns something new about CSS namespace rules and class selectors
  142. # [14:08] * hsivonen considers the interaction counterintuitive
  143. # [14:09] <Lachy> hsivonen, what did you learn?
  144. # [14:10] <hsivonen> Lachy: I learned that declaring the default namespace for element selectors breaks class-only selectors for elements from another namespace
  145. # [14:11] <zcorpan> ditto *
  146. # [14:12] <zcorpan> you need *|* (and *|*.foo) for any namespace if you have declared a default namespace
  147. # [14:12] <hsivonen> zcorpan: so it appears
  148. # [14:12] <Lachy> oh, right. That is counter-intuitive
  149. # [14:12] <hsivonen> I'm disappointed
  150. # [14:13] <Lachy> well, in a way it makes sense. By declaring the default namespace, you're basically saying you only want to select elements in that namespace unless you explicitly state otherwise
  151. # [14:16] <hsivonen> bah. now that I fixed my SVG class selectors, they broke in Prince
  152. # [14:17] <hsivonen> I guess I'll just get rid of the namespace declarations and rely on DWIM
  153. # [14:18] <zcorpan> yeah, in most cases namspace declarations in css is not necessary
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  155. # [14:18] <zcorpan> (even if you used mixed namespaces in the document)
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  157. # [14:19] <hsivonen> the XML API user in me feel that not declaring namespaces in wrong
  158. # [14:20] <hsivonen> *is wrong
  159. # [14:21] <zcorpan> if two elements from different namepsaces get styled but you only wanted one of them, you can always qualify the selector with a parent or descendant combinator, which might not be as elegant but this situation is very rare anyway
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  161. # [14:22] <Lachy> doesn't the pragmatic and sensible user in you make you feel that declaring namespaces is pointless?
  162. # [14:22] <hsivonen> Lachy: yes
  163. # [14:23] <hsivonen> the moron and the asshole fighting in me
  164. # [14:23] <hsivonen> ok. I'm going back to namespaceless CSS
  165. # [14:23] <Lachy> lol
  166. # [14:23] <hsivonen> I guess I should file a bug about Prince, though
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  168. # [14:38] <hsivonen> well, typical. I tried to do the right thing. I learned that it didn't work like I expected. I learned that it didn't help any. and I found a bug.
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  208. # [21:45] <hsivonen> Hixie: do you have stats on the usage proportions of all HTML elements as opposed to just top 10?
  209. # [21:45] <hsivonen> specifically, am I right when I think that <dfn> is used very rarely?
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  211. # [21:50] <Hixie> hsivonen: ask me again when i get to work (a few hours from now)
  212. # [21:50] <Hixie> (i have stats for more than the top 10)
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  214. # [22:00] <hsivonen> Hixie: ok
  215. # [22:03] <hsivonen> btw, there's a thread about the legitimacy of html5 on www-html
  216. # [22:04] <hsivonen> start: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/2007Apr/0053.html
  217. # [22:05] <hsivonen> the main feedback point is that Tina Holmboe does not like the semantic retrofitting of <i>
  218. # [22:06] <hsivonen> also, Lynx developers have not researched <script/> behavior thoroughly
  219. # [22:06] <hsivonen> Hixie: do you read www-html?
  220. # [22:06] <Hixie> yes
  221. # [22:07] <hsivonen> ok. no need to mention this then
  222. # [22:08] <Hixie> i saw the thread. i figured i wouldn't have any credibility from tina's point of view, so i didn't bother to reply
  223. # [22:09] <Dashiva> Poor Hixie, his life's work demolished by the mere flick of Tina's send button
  224. # [22:11] <gavin_> Tina Holmboe has some interesting opinions :)
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  227. # [22:13] <hsivonen> I bothered to reply, because back when she was on ciwah, she was in the clueful minority
  228. # [22:25] <zcorpan> " No, I meant HTML 4.1. Starting with the 4.01 specification would make perfect sense; take out deprecated elements, clean it up, remove even more presentational markup ... Then release it. After that we can see." perfect plan for a high-quality and useful spec, why didn't we think of that?
  229. # [22:40] <Hixie> i tried that but when i did the "clean it up" stage it fell apart
  230. # [22:40] <Hixie> </sarcasm>
  231. # [22:43] <zcorpan> a first step could be to remove everything that isn't normative... but then the only thing left would be "UAs MUST NOT assume a default encoding"
  232. # [22:43] <zcorpan> :)
  233. # [22:44] <Dashiva> we should take the IRC approach
  234. # [22:44] <Dashiva> Treat everything as a sequence of octets, and let the clients decide on a per-case basis
  235. # [22:44] <hsivonen> Dashiva: not interoperable
  236. # [22:44] <Dashiva> octets are about as interoperable as it gets
  237. # [22:45] * zcorpan thinks the xhtml2 wg would like that proposal
  238. # [22:45] <hsivonen> Dashiva: irssi is so good at guessing that it is hard for people who aren't experts to figure out what they are talking to clients with worse heuristics
  239. # [22:45] <hsivonen> Dashiva: so irssi users can talk to each other and non-irssi users complain
  240. # [22:46] <hsivonen> and the complaints look ok to the irssi users :-)
  241. # [22:46] <Dashiva> See, mIRC got recode support for utf-8 last year, so it works out somehow
  242. # [22:54] * Quits: jcgregorio (i=chatzill@nat/ibm/x-3d7a92ce692e59b6) ("ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.3/0000000000]")
  243. # [23:09] <Hixie> i'm thinking placeholder="" as an attribute to hide things
  244. # [23:09] <Hixie> <section placeholder>, <output placeholder>, that kind of thing
  245. # [23:15] <Hixie> man, the arguments in www-html are very polar
  246. # [23:16] <Hixie> i'm extremely amused by the way that people in the ivory tower say that i'm pro-presentationalism at the expense of semantics, and people in the trenches say i'm pro-semanticism at the expense of their ability to do what users want
  247. # [23:16] <bewest> yeah, there seems to be some idea that every possible semantic should have it's own tag
  248. # [23:17] <bewest> and that users somehow want to use it
  249. # [23:17] <hsivonen> "I think you and I, and I believe TBL, have a higher view in that it is to help people to communicate, but I don't think that that is what the WHATWG's constituency wants."
  250. # [23:17] <othermaciej> Hixie: Murray is in the ivory tower and he thinks you're not going far enough with presentationalism
  251. # [23:18] <Hixie> it's not clear to me what murray wants or where he stands
  252. # [23:18] <Hixie> i think he might be in the tower's subbasement
  253. # [23:18] <Hixie> or maybe he's on a tall ladder in the trenches
  254. # [23:18] <Hixie> or something
  255. # [23:18] <hsivonen> :-)
  256. # [23:19] <othermaciej> I think he built another tower on top of the tower and wrapped around to underneath the trenches
  257. # [23:19] <Hixie> hah
  258. # [23:19] <othermaciej> (damn spherical geometries)
  259. # [23:19] <Hixie> that's either a tall tower or our metaphor is in a universe with a very small word size
  260. # [23:19] <hsivonen> I got the impression that he is even more pro reflowable presentation atoms than I am
  261. # [23:22] <othermaciej> he wants an <indent> element
  262. # [23:22] <othermaciej> and an unspecified number of other weakly semantic constructs
  263. # [23:23] <othermaciej> we can always get Dan Connolly to tell him whether his elements are good or not
  264. # [23:23] <hsivonen> othermaciej: I can sympathise with <indent>, but the thread seems like a rathole. and for compatibility, <indent> has to be called <blockquote> :-)
  265. # [23:23] <Hixie> i didn't get what <indent> was supposed to do
  266. # [23:24] <hsivonen> Hixie: my understanding was that it would behave like <blockquote> on the visual media but the element name would not suggest quoting
  267. # [23:25] <Hixie> so like a <div> but with a margin-left: 40px in the UA style sheet?
  268. # [23:25] <jgraham> The problem being it doesn't work in any existing browser so no one would use it anytime soon
  269. # [23:25] <Hixie> that's certainly one problem
  270. # [23:25] <hsivonen> Hixie: yeah. something that you could map to indent/outdent buttons in Word/OOo
  271. # [23:26] <Hixie> i see
  272. # [23:26] <hsivonen> jgraham: see has to be called <blockquote> above
  273. # [23:26] <Hixie> well, it seems clear that that would be a step backwards in terms of the markup cleanup...
  274. # [23:26] <jgraham> hsivonen: Indeed
  275. # [23:27] <hsivonen> Hixie: it could be a step forward in admitting reality, though :-/
  276. # [23:27] <Hixie> hsivonen: not really, authors rarely want 40px these days
  277. # [23:27] <Hixie> making <style> allowed in <div>s is the way to do this
  278. # [23:28] <Hixie> <div> <style> div { margin: 0 2em; border: ...; background: ...; } </style> ... </div>
  279. # [23:28] <othermaciej> <indent> seems like a poor name for an element to add extra horizontal margin on both sides
  280. # [23:28] <hsivonen> Hixie: that doesn't work with copy-paste to a document with another style sheet in a way that the indent depth adapts to the style of the target doc
  281. # [23:29] <Hixie> hsivonen: ironically, that's the opposite of the requirement i keep hearing that copy-paste should preserve the styles exactly
  282. # [23:29] <Hixie> so
  283. # [23:29] <othermaciej> only difference between <indent> and <div class="indented"> is default style
  284. # [23:29] <Hixie> go figure
  285. # [23:29] <hsivonen> Hixie: and you've got a verbose way of saying style='' there ;-)
  286. # [23:29] <Hixie> style="" isn't media-independent, nor does it support alternate stylesheets
  287. # [23:30] <hsivonen> Hixie: I want an editor with generic indent and italics but no copying of computed style
  288. # [23:30] <othermaciej> hsivonen: by that do you mean an authoring tool or a spec editor?
  289. # [23:31] <othermaciej> (because people are getting awfully specific in their requirements for HTML spec editors)
  290. # [23:31] <hsivonen> glazou says I have an orphan disease
  291. # [23:31] <hsivonen> othermaciej: authoring tool
  292. # [23:31] <Hixie> othermaciej: hah
  293. # [23:32] <othermaciej> I want an editor who will add <canvas> and <video>, but not XML data islands or namespaces in HTML
  294. # [23:32] <Hixie> hsivonen: i think editors can already do whatever they need with the current state of things, especially if it's not got to interoperate with other editors
  295. # [23:32] <Hixie> anyway
  296. # [23:33] <othermaciej> please everyone fill out this checklist of desired features before you apply to be editor
  297. # [23:33] <Hixie> gotta go to work
  298. # [23:34] * Joins: ajnewbold (n=adam@74-129-102-1.dhcp.insightbb.com)
  299. # [23:58] * othermaciej is now known as om_coffee
  300. # [23:59] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-242.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  301. # Session Close: Tue Apr 24 00:00:00 2007

The end :)